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#614241 - 08/23/15 4:03 pm A65 srm oil pump  
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sloppyoil Offline
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Monclova
Just received a srm oil pump for an A65. Installed it with the hardware provided. It immediately tightened up after torqueing the bolts to 8ft pounds. Very tight. Pump on straight, engine on bench, fresh rebuild. Engine turns over freely like it should before oil pump installation. Yes it will turn but very tight. The instructions state that it will have tight spots but this is ridiculous. Anyone have any experiences with srm? I have used Morgo rotory pumps on my triumphs with great results. Perhaps I got a bad one. Going to call Coventry in morning and see what's up. Any idea's ?? Thanks Tom

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#614243 - 08/23/15 4:14 pm Re: A65 srm oil pump [Re: sloppyoil]  
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Zombie Offline
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Florida PanHandle
Try loosening the mount bolts, and see if the problem goes away. I would look for a misalignment of the driven parts to the mounting bosses in the engine.

A magic marker can help (witness marks) to ID anything that may be binding or out of spec. The more information you have to give the manufacturer the better.

I've seen the images, and I would think applying downward pressure to the pump while torquing may help. At least to ID the issue.

#614245 - 08/23/15 4:29 pm Re: A65 srm oil pump [Re: sloppyoil]  
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Allan Gill Offline
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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
It's one of the items from SRM that I would buy again.

Follow as zombie says above. Also don't forget that unless you have put some oil into the pump before fitting it is running dry. And from recollection when I fitted mine it said to remove the oprv and feed oil through the lines until it comes out at the oprv. A oil can provided enough pressure to do this.

My pump which has done 7000+ miles now is tightened up greater than the 7-8 FT/lb mentioned in the manual. And each screw was tightened town in small incruments from the point the heads touched the pump. Never tighten each screw fully before moving onto the next, it is a sure way to bugger anything up.


beerchug
#614246 - 08/23/15 4:29 pm Re: A65 srm oil pump [Re: sloppyoil]  
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John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content


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Boston, Massachusetts
The operation of the pump assumes that the timing side bushing is in the proper location and the drive gear is on specification.


#614252 - 08/23/15 5:21 pm Re: A65 srm oil pump [Re: sloppyoil]  
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Ed V Offline
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Also to add to the above when tightening the the pump tighten the rear two fasteners first checking for tightness in turning the pump you normally can tighten the rear two with no issues it is when tightening the front fastener that you run into problems as this fastener goes through the drive snout which is a bolt on piece to the pump and can create friction against the drive gear and body, if you have an issue after tightening the front mount is will be necessary to insert a small shim under the front mount to remove the binding when tightened.
Also when installing the pump I remove the drive pinion gear from the crankshaft and clamp a hose on the tach drive with a 1/4" bolt on the free end that I can turn the pump with so I do not break the tach drive when turning the pump. You can also use this made up drive to spin the pump and check your oil pressure etc with a hand drill. Once you are satisfied all is well you can install the pinion drive gear on the crank along with outer gear and fasteners.

#614253 - 08/23/15 5:37 pm Re: A65 srm oil pump [Re: sloppyoil]  
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Tribsauk Offline
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Death row next in line norfolk
if you have an issue after tightening the front mount is will be necessary to insert a small shim under the front mount to remove the binding when tightened.

I seem to remember when I had my A10 the gasket set included a fibre washer which sat between the front mount for pump and crankcase.
I dont know if A65s had this washer but as Ed says if you tighten pump without checking that all mountings are flush the you can distort pump body once you have tightened up screws.. Dave


1941 BSA WM20
1958 TRI-BSA 750 PRE UNIT
1957 THUNDERBIRD
1932 R E MODEL GS SPECIAL
1947 BSA YM21
#614267 - 08/23/15 6:38 pm Re: A65 srm oil pump [Re: sloppyoil]  
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Ignoramus Online content
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Auckland NZ
Alan Recons:
" each screw was tightened town in small incruments from the point the heads touched the pump. Never tighten each screw fully before moving onto the next, it is a sure way to bugger anything up.
_______________________

thats for sure!

I had a prob with and SRM pump years ago and they replaced it immediately ... they have a good reputation as far as i know .

only question i have regarding your installation is how thick a gasket are you using ?


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
#614271 - 08/23/15 7:02 pm Re: A65 srm oil pump [Re: Ignoramus]  
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sloppyoil Offline
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Monclova
Have a supply of all new spares but used exactly what SRM sent in the box. Their worm gear and nut, gasket, and attaching hardware. Cant understand it, all done on bench and turning by hand. AS soon as it was secured ( evenly ) it became bound up and was hard to rotate. After taking it back off the pump was even more difficult to turn by hand. I think I got a bad one. It happens. I have been around the block on BSA's and Triumphs as these are all I ride. Work on, and restore several a year for myself and paying customers. There is no alignment issues with any of the components. I have never put a shim on the front mount of a BSA oil pump.Never have seen one either.
read sometime back in one of these forums of an individual installing one and having it tie up on him within a fewe miles. Don't want that to happen. Motor is on bench waiting to be installed in frame. I just have the crank assembled in the cases, no trans yet or cylinder etc. Thanks, Im sure it will be taken care of as nothing was man handled, or cobbled.

#614274 - 08/23/15 7:07 pm Re: A65 srm oil pump [Re: sloppyoil]  
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sloppyoil Offline
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Monclova
Guys, keep in mind that when I say rotated the engine I mean a half of revolution at a time. There is no kicker on it so it was not spun around multiple time or abused in any way to turn it over. Nor was it forced etc.

#614392 - 08/24/15 5:27 pm Re: A65 srm oil pump [Re: sloppyoil]  
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htown Online content
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Magnolia, TX
Read the A65 pump installation tips at the bottom of the page.
http://www.shopevengineering.com/techtips.htm
The first time I installed my SRM pump it bound up and damaged the crank worm gear. Thank goodness the pump gear was okay. I ordered a new worm gear for the crank and then broke the pump in using a drill per the instructions. I had a gauge installed and was able to verify the oil pressure and function of the oprv. Reinstalled the new worm gear and everything has been good every since.


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
2-1974 Norton Commandos
2004 XL 1200R Sportster

Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
#614478 - 08/25/15 3:15 pm Re: A65 srm oil pump [Re: sloppyoil]  
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John Healy Online content
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Boston, Massachusetts
To produce the output claimed for the SRM oil pump internal tolerances are much closer than the stock pump. The surface it is bolted to must be perfectly flat! If the pump turned before you offered it, and stopped working once secured in place, it isn't the pump.

Did you read the part in the instructions to NOT TURN IT BACKWARDS??

While you would hope that a surface machined some 45 plus years ago is still flat, it is not an assumption you should make. Many times the area around a stud hole can pull away and will not allow the pump to sit flat. This isn't difficult work, but requires attention to every detail.

As mentioned above hold the pump in place on the crankcase surface by hand, and using a .001" feeler gauge, check around the pump to see if you can get it under the pump. If not flat you will have to shim as required. Each pump is mounted and driven to check flow and pressure before shipping so the pump was flat, and worked, when assembled to pass this test.

Contact SRM: srm@srmclassicbikes.com


#614500 - 08/25/15 7:42 pm Re: A65 srm oil pump [Re: John Healy]  
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sloppyoil Offline
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Monclova
John, of course I read the instructions. This is a 3000 mile motor. TB is like new and was not replaced. Mating surfaces are as NEW. Removed studs and checked, no problems there. Correct torque on worm gear and locking nut. No sealer just assembly lube on gasket to ensure seal and fitting of pump through squish observation of said grease. I can appreciate the intricate suggestions but one also has to realize that every now and then a bad piece gets through, which in this occurrence is the case. Crank turns freely as well as the camshaft, cam also has the proper amount of in and out end play. I have shimmed many a morgo rotary pumps for triumphs with no problems whatsoever and have built many a BSA motors also. I have never used a srm pump before but my friend Bob Goodpasteur tells me they are a good company with a good product. So I am confident that this matter will be resolved and I can assemble the motor before it gets to cold. Thanks Tom

#614504 - 08/25/15 8:21 pm Re: A65 srm oil pump [Re: sloppyoil]  
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Zombie Offline
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Florida PanHandle
A set of machinist blocks will go a long way in helping.

I have a set similar to this one... They were given to me by my High School power mechanics teacher 40 years ago. They are the ONLY thing I have ever owned that long.


It does sound like your pump jammed up. There has to be a reason... Perhaps a bad pump or perhaps as Mr Healy suggests, the aluminium around the stud/bolt holes may be proud of the machined surface (on the engine case).

It couldn't hurt to run a larger drill bit (by hand) on the outer edge of those holes, and then check the surface once again.

We all realize the caliber of workmanship offered up by a trainee on the mill or some low life coming off a three day binge.
New does not mean good. It means untested.

#614613 - 08/26/15 5:22 pm Re: A65 srm oil pump [Re: sloppyoil]  
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Ignoramus Online content
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Zombie , quickest way to void any warranty it to mess around with the unit. including opening it up for a look.........just send it back to SRM for a look see....that's what i would do anyhow .


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
#614626 - 08/26/15 6:26 pm Re: A65 srm oil pump [Re: sloppyoil]  
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sloppyoil Offline
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Monclova
Yes, and thanks for all the good tips. But that's exactly what I did. The pump is on its way back. A person needs to follow their instructions to a T or otherwise if you sneak a peak you void a 450.00 pump. All the tips were well taken and noted. However, SRM does not want the spindle turned (according to their instructions ) by any means other than priming with kick starter after installed. I stopped as soon as I seen the problem. Like I said the piece was not handled improperly in any way. I'm sure it will be taken care of. The understanding of closer tolerances goes with the Hi Performance factor, however, closer does not mean super tight. If I wasted a perfectly low mile motor because of a bad pump who wouldn't be pissed? I certainly would have not installed this in a customers engine either. Hypothetically thinking then, if it puked and the entire engine needed rebuilt again who pays for that? Me or the customer? I hardly think that a customer would expect to pay for the labor and parts again, does anyone else? I don't think so. Thanks again and like I said I'm sure it will be resolved and maybe I can take it for a ride in a bit.

#614627 - 08/26/15 6:28 pm Re: A65 srm oil pump [Re: sloppyoil]  
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Zombie Offline
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Absolutely,Ignoramus

I was referring to the engine cases... Checking the mounting points, and the surface milling for square.
Sorry! I knew what I meant...

What is it called when something means the polar opposite? Your user name kills me.


Mr.Sloppyoil,
Please keep us informed as to how SRM handles this. Perhaps they will pass along some information that will help in the future.




Last edited by Zombie; 08/26/15 6:35 pm.
#614633 - 08/26/15 7:08 pm Re: A65 srm oil pump [Re: Zombie]  
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sloppyoil Offline
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Monclova
Sure will, Like I said, If I fubared the pump I would be the first to say so, however, this was treated as gingerly as it could have. Studs came out with no effort, case is as flat as a pancake and no pulling by mounting holes. This motor has no miles on it, just been sitting. Precautionary tear down, Christ even the sludge trap was clean. I don't believe there will be an issue. I really don't see how there could be. Like I said, every now and then a bad one gets by. Did you guys notice another thread from someone else stating they installed one and now cant get the bike started, minus starting fluid? I wonder if his is tight too??? Hopes he puts two and two together if he has a problem.......

#614667 - 08/26/15 11:26 pm Re: A65 srm oil pump [Re: sloppyoil]  
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htown Online content
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htown  Online Content
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Magnolia, TX
I know it's a bummer to spend that much on an oil pump and not have it work. As I related in an earlier post I had some problems when I first installed mine. Followed the instructions to the letter and when I started it the oil light would not go out. I pulled it back apart and found some damage both on the spiral gears on the pump drive shaft and the worm gear. SRM sent me a new drive shaft. I noticed that the washer that goes on the crank behind the worm gear was sort of chewed up, so I ordered a new one. I measured the new one when I got it and the old one and found the old one was thinner, probably from over tightening. I also located a NOS worm gear. SRM sends a pattern part that should be good but I was a bit paranoid. Put everything back together carefully using only grease on the gasket. Spun the pump up with a drill to prime it before installing the worm gear. Put a gauge on and had good oil pressure on start up and have put some miles on the bike now with no problems.
SRM says they bench test the pumps before shipping. The one I had was stiff but turned free with the drill. Based on what happened to me, I would take a close look at the worm gear and the washer behind it. Can you see any shiney spots on the worm gear that indicate it was binding?


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
2-1974 Norton Commandos
2004 XL 1200R Sportster

Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
#614679 - 08/27/15 4:33 am Re: A65 srm oil pump [Re: sloppyoil]  
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Allan Gill Offline
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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
The motors ability to start will have no resemblance on whether the oil pump works or not. It will only be a problem when the motor gets starved of lubrication and starts to mash the journals. At this point it will still run.

Send the pump back to SRM, but place a straight edge along it before you do. Also place a straight edge across the case before you fit a new one


beerchug
#614683 - 08/27/15 6:31 am Re: A65 srm oil pump [Re: sloppyoil]  
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sloppyoil Offline
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Monclova
The pump came with a new gear. Matched to their pump. Washer NOS that I have. Even though the original was as good as new. Their instructions say to prime differently. So I did not vary one bit from their manufacturer's instructions. There is no damage to any of the components, as motor was turned over by hand 1/1/2 to 2 revolutions. Good thing or it probably would have been chewed up like yours. Thanks Tom PS I have NOS worm gears too and noticed the difference, but installed theirs as a matched set.

#614739 - 08/27/15 5:45 pm Re: A65 srm oil pump [Re: sloppyoil]  
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BillD47 Offline
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Florida
Sloppyoil,
One item I noted on my A65 SRM oil pump installation is that at (1) of the mounting bolts (mine were actually Allen head screws) had to be shortened to mate with and tighten the pump. I seem to remember it was the front screw, but could be mistaken. If you still have the original bolts, you may want to measure their length against the new ones. If not, let me know and I will check the length on my old bolts for you. Just maybe the new pump wasn't fully seated.

#618883 - 09/24/15 7:49 am Re: A65 srm oil pump [Re: sloppyoil]  
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sloppyoil Offline
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Monclova
Well folks I am picking up my oil pump from my retailer as soon as I can. It is back and here is the story. It was sent to JRC the US dist for srm. It was sent there by my retailer ( which is a bit of a story in itself ) It is back and JRC stated that nothing was wrong with it. However, from what I am told now the pump turns freely and by hand. So this leads me to believe that they did massage the pump in some fashion. They stated that they took it all apart and found nothing wrong. So I am wondering why is it so free to spin now?? I am glad that the problem hopefully is remedied but I have complaints to list, and some people may not like what I have to say.
Perhaps my mindset could be better understood if a bit of background was described. I used to work for a hi perf company in the Toledo area years gone by. Racers Warehouse, Lous Speed Shop, Power Rider cycle center and RPM Racing Engines. All owned by Lous Speed Shop Ink. If we sold a part and it was faulty or the customer was not satisfied we TOOK CARE OF IT PERIOD. We dealt with just about every major manufacturer of speed equipment there was. WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY IS THAT IF you ARE A DISTRIBUTER FOR srm THEN IF THERE IS A PROBLEM with one of there parts YOU need to honor your sale and do everything possible to make the customer happy. ( within reason I understand ) The twenty question game is allowed however, if the problem cannot be resolved then that distributer needs to look at pump and send it back for an opinion. Rather I received that the there has never been a bad one yet, did you turn the pump backwards, did you over tighten, did you shim, is the timing bushing put in straight, every possible response designed to either irritate or attempt to put forth some question of doubt to make me go away, or just install the pump and hope it works. Also there was much arrogance on the part of that salesman? to make a person think that he and only he knows what is going on in the world of vertical twins.
However, I am not turned off by the people at SRM, they appeared to take care of this without any hassle. What my main complaint is that the person who sold it needs to be able to understand that the occasional bad one does slip by and THEY need to take care of it. Foe example, I know without even mentioning the company's name that everyone on this board knows who I am referring to. So now after all these years of just laughing and shrugging off eccentric behaviors now that company has lost a customer. All because of the way they handled a simple return that SRM took care of. Aint it a shame?? I will install the corrected pump this week end . And again, thanks to all those who had some good advice, I plan on using some of those suggestions in the near future.

#618887 - 09/24/15 9:36 am Re: A65 srm oil pump [Re: sloppyoil]  
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Zombie Offline
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Florida PanHandle
On the good side, you have what they say is a working pump.

I can relate to that tale of woe. I just finished installing a pair of brand new 310HP Chevy small blocks (Crusader) in an old boat.
Installation went without a hitch but the starboard engine stalls when returning to idle, and needs to be throttled up slowly to avoid stalling.

After all the basic checks, it is the idle mixture adjustment that is off on the right side of the metering block (Holley 750's). They have those brass caps to prevent adjusting the mix so as a matter of warranty protection I need Crusaders permission to open the caps, and get my customers engines working. So far it has been 6 days, and 100 questions from them but no permission to open the caps.

Did you check the oil level? Did you check the coolant level? Did you check the air in the tires??? I had to explain the timing procedure to the "Tech" that is attempting to get permission to adjust the IDLE MIX!

All this being what it is... annoying, I get it. Life would be sooo much happier if everyone knew what their job was, and how to perform it competently.

Instead we have "experts" that have never worked on a part, and desk jockies that tell the experts to ask him again...

It's almost enough to make you not want to try.

#618890 - 09/24/15 11:05 am Re: A65 srm oil pump [Re: sloppyoil]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,182
Mike Carter R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Mike Carter R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,182
Altoona, Florida
I just installed one of SRMs pumps on a clients A10 Engine spun free prior to pump install then got a bit stiff. Reading their directions it states this is not a problem, by stiff I mean I noticed the difference as engines can normally be turned without much effort. I sent this totally rebuilt engine back to owner some time ago and await his input as to how he likes engine..I can only hope there is not a problem with pump. I also installed a SRM belt drive for the dynamo and had to machine parts so it would fit had several conversations with SRM regarding this as well.. Nice products just hope they live up to the hype...

Cheers

Mike Carter

#618924 - 09/24/15 3:56 pm Re: A65 srm oil pump [Re: sloppyoil]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 244
Phil in Germany Offline
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Phil in Germany  Offline
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Duesseldorf/Germany
After having made rather questionable experience with a MCA pump I swapped for a SRM one 4 or 5 years ago.

Straight swap, out of the cardboard box onto the engine.

At least my pump is great. The bike does not even wet sump.

I do subscribe fully to the point of view that the retailer's behaviour lacks customer orientation. After all you are not able to see customer orientation by normal sales but if something has gone wrong.

Best

Ph.


Best regards
Phil
Duesseldorf/Germany
'62 A 65 Star (disassembled)
'69 A 65 Lightning
'71 A 65 Firebird
'75 T 160
'84 Yamaha SR 500
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