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Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #700276
07/01/17 1:53 am
07/01/17 1:53 am
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ohio, usa
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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Correct me if I'm wrong but on the dyno you pull in the clutch at high speeds and let the dyno roller spin the rear wheel...If the engine was at an idle with the rear wheel spinning down, it's no different to the clutch pushrod, than sitting at a stop with the clutch pulled in..Yes?


yes, you're right-- just like sitting at a light with the lever pulled in . . . except i don't do that at 6000 rpm for 30 seconds or so.

even so, it has to be me. i can't believe doing that one time would melt the pushrod. it must have been too tight, and therefore already over-heated . . .

Quote
I'm pretty sure I hardened the pushrod ends on several bikes...heat the end to red and plunge in oil..Then heat to about 400 degrees (metal gets a straw color) and let it cool at room temperature...This will anneal the metal so it's still hard but not brittle...


i quench my knife blades in motor oil, from a cherry red. works okay so far. you're suggesting a second heating and slow air-cool?


"Are bikes so nice as all that?" asked the mole, shyly...

"Nice? They're the only thing," said the Water Rat Solemnly, as he leaned forward on the handlebars. "Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth doing as simply messing about with bikes."
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Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #700304
07/01/17 10:10 am
07/01/17 10:10 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,021
Running from demons in WNY
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Originally Posted by kevin roberts
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Correct me if I'm wrong but on the dyno you pull in the clutch at high speeds and let the dyno roller spin the rear wheel...If the engine was at an idle with the rear wheel spinning down, it's no different to the clutch pushrod, than sitting at a stop with the clutch pulled in..Yes?


yes, you're right-- just like sitting at a light with the lever pulled in . . . except i don't do that at 6000 rpm for 30 seconds or so.

even so, it has to be me. i can't believe doing that one time would melt the pushrod. it must have been too tight, and therefore already over-heated . . .




I was thinking that when you pull in the clutch and the rear wheel is spinning down, you are not holding the throttle open...And I'm assuming the rod is not being spun by the gearbox main shaft.....


I ride dinosaurs that eat money
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: Hillbilly bike] #700312
07/01/17 11:38 am
07/01/17 11:38 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 189
Nova Scotia, Canada
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koncretekid Offline
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I made new correct length pushrods from oil hardening drill rod, heated to red hot on ends, plunged into oil, then polished the ends in a lathe with progressively finer sandpaper down to 2,000 grit with oil. The ends were then mirror finish. The B50 has a 3/16" clutch rod, but runs in small bushings at each end of the mainshaft. So cutting the rod in half (I have seen this done) requires removing one of the small bushings to insert a 1/4" ball bearing and then replacing the end bushing. Problem then is that the pushrod ends are now floating in a 1/4" bore so will not center on the internal ball bearing, so I did not do this.

BUT, for insurance, I no longer pull the clutch back in after each pull, but simply let the engine braking help slow the dyno wheel while depressing the rear brake (no brake on dyno). I've made dozens of dyno pulls on this motor with no ill consequences of doing so, from 7500 rpm to idle, with a 90mm stroke Carrillo rod and JE piston. I would think your Triumph could do that safely, with no clutch push rod issues.

"I was thinking that when you pull in the clutch and the rear wheel is spinning down, you are not holding the throttle open...And I'm assuming the rod is not being spun by the gearbox main shaft....."

The difference is that the dyno wheel is still spinning driving the rear wheel at over 100 mph and hence the mainshaft, clutch rod, and clutch center as well as the the pressure plate are still spinning until the dyno wheel slows down.

Tom


Life's uncertain - go fast now!
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #700322
07/01/17 1:11 pm
07/01/17 1:11 pm
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Posts: 496
new jersey usa
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pushrod tom Offline
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KK has explained it well. If you pull in the clutch with the wheel going 100+ and the engine at idle you will melt the actuating mechanism quickly, hardened or not. Trying to find neutral in that situation could be fatal for engine and/or rider also. I would love to do a 'plug chop' after a run but it's just not worth the risk!
It has been a while since I have done any real road testing. There were several incidents, both mechanical and law enforcement generated, that convinced me to abandon that method!!
If I may ramble a bit. Before the boss got the dyno he used to send me out on the Pakway to test the results of our repairs etc. This included ZX=11's, GSXR's, Busa's etc. A couple of them had nitrous and I was required to 'push the button'. My Goodness, what a rush!! Well over 100. Foolhardy. The speed differential was more than the speed limit of 65. And, yes, HB, I rode to the shore a few times on the old road and also had to make my way to the NY Thruway on pre parkway roads. The shore route was tedious. Thruway connection not too bad. Ahh, memories. PRT

Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #700326
07/01/17 1:39 pm
07/01/17 1:39 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,440
ohio, usa
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so.

given these primitive and unlubed clutch release mechanisms, what's the least risky technique to decel?

tony, you have had no difficulty with a stock 3-spring set up. perhaps you have the magic touch.

tom and tom, you've both experienced otherwise with a decel with tbe clutch disengaged.

the newby has six springs and a pretty hard pull at the lever. maybe back the springs off? i've been running thd buttons down flush. certainly increase the freeplay, as gavin suggested

dave and andy suggest intermediate bearings.

maybe the answer is to stay away from the dyno?


"Are bikes so nice as all that?" asked the mole, shyly...

"Nice? They're the only thing," said the Water Rat Solemnly, as he leaned forward on the handlebars. "Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth doing as simply messing about with bikes."
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #700335
07/01/17 2:51 pm
07/01/17 2:51 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,021
Running from demons in WNY
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Running from demons in WNY
Kevin . Never any clutch problems despite declutching at high rpm on the dyno a few times . At the track the clutch has been faultless . Its a stock three spring assembly with cheap Tiawan plates and T140 springs But the bike does require a new primary chain about six runs


I ride dinosaurs that eat money
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #700339
07/01/17 3:28 pm
07/01/17 3:28 pm
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Posts: 496
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pushrod tom Offline
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Kevin, The solution is to just use the clutch as it was meant to be used. The dyno won't hurt it. Just be patient and let the wheel spool down. Don't do WFO plug chops. Easy Peasy.
As far as the Newby goes. It should be easy to pull. Maybe .150 from the top of the adjuster to the cup. Experiment some. It grips really well with less pressure. Honest. We use it on the nitrous bike and although we have broken many things the clutch has never slipped! PRT

Re: mail-order LSR [Re: pushrod tom] #700344
07/01/17 3:50 pm
07/01/17 3:50 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,440
ohio, usa
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Originally Posted by pushrod tom
Kevin, The solution is to just use the clutch as it was meant to be used. The dyno won't hurt it. Just be patient and let the wheel spool down. Don't do WFO plug chops. Easy Peasy.

Originally Posted by pushrod tom

The lesson. Do not pull clutch except for normal operation!


so . . . just kill the magneto at the end of the run and let the drum and the wheel spool down under engine compression at closed throttle, correct?

Originally Posted by pushrod tom
As far as the Newby goes. It should be easy to pull. Maybe .150 from the top of the adjuster to the cup. Experiment some. It grips really well with less pressure. Honest. We use it on the nitrous bike and although we have broken many things the clutch has never slipped! PRT


the newby drive has always had a heavy clutch pull, using a standard triumph lever, but i have the buttons screwed down flush with the ends of the pins.

Quote
Maybe .150 from the top of the adjuster to the cup.


^^^which parts exactly are we talking about? the six spring-retainer buttons? if so, i've had them lots tighter than 0.150.


"Are bikes so nice as all that?" asked the mole, shyly...

"Nice? They're the only thing," said the Water Rat Solemnly, as he leaned forward on the handlebars. "Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth doing as simply messing about with bikes."
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #700378
07/01/17 8:18 pm
07/01/17 8:18 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 477
Cork Ireland
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chaterlea25 Online content
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HI Kevin and All,
http://shop.srmclassicbikes.com/product-category/clutch
I have used the radial needle roller bearing parts shown here to modify several different makes of clutches
with complete success
The pressure plate adjusters are 3/8UNF thread, On a steel pressure plate I used a locknut either side of the plate to hold the adjuster fixed
On another I brazed a nut to the pressure plate
Specify pushrod diamater when ordering

John

Re: mail-order LSR [Re: chaterlea25] #700403
07/02/17 12:00 am
07/02/17 12:00 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 189
Nova Scotia, Canada
K
koncretekid Offline
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Nova Scotia, Canada
Kevin,
I don't cut the ignition; I just let off the throttle with the clutch still engaged, sort of a chop, and leave the motor running as the dyno wheel slows down. The dyno operator will slow the wheel down for you (he does have a brake, doesn't he?) You don't actually have to downshift if you plan to do a series of 2 or 3 consecutive runs by just slowing it down to 4000 rpm or so (which some guys like to do to take an average of 2 or 3 runs for each change in tuning). Naturally you do have to downshift to neutral if you have to restart your motor with kickstart, but I just downshift into 2nd gear pulling in the clutch to downshift exactly as I do when slowing down on the road. Then pull in the clutch and shut off the ignition and hold the clutch in until the dyno wheel comes to a rest. You can also just leave it in high gear until the rpm drop to 1500 or so and then shut if off and pull in the clutch until the wheel stops. You can then just down shift after the wheels come to a rest to restart. DO NOT BUMP IT BACK INTO 1ST GEAR with the dyno wheel turning! I took out the sleeve gear, layshaft gear, and the bottom of the transmission case when I accidentally did that once with the wheel turning too fast. I have a starter motor hooked up to my dyno wheel so I use that to restart the bike in 2nd gear.

If some people can get away with pulling in the clutch immediately after each pull until the wheel slows down, great, but it just didn't work for me (or you or PRT either).

Other Tom

Last edited by koncretekid; 07/02/17 12:02 am.

Life's uncertain - go fast now!
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: koncretekid] #700404
07/02/17 12:05 am
07/02/17 12:05 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,440
ohio, usa
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Originally Posted by koncretekid

If some people can get away with pulling in the clutch immediately after each pull until the wheel slows down, great, but it just didn't work for me (or you or PRT either).

Other Tom



lol

you're both the other tom . . .


"Are bikes so nice as all that?" asked the mole, shyly...

"Nice? They're the only thing," said the Water Rat Solemnly, as he leaned forward on the handlebars. "Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth doing as simply messing about with bikes."
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: koncretekid] #700407
07/02/17 12:20 am
07/02/17 12:20 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,021
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Online content
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Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted by koncretekid


If some people can get away with pulling in the clutch immediately after each pull until the wheel slows down, great, but it just didn't work for me (or you or PRT either).

Other Tom


I got away with it a few times that's for sure. ..After that at a different dyno shop with a knowledgeable operator I was doing it exactly like you mention.... My bike's stock dual strand primary chain has a short life An hour on the dynamometer and 4 runs down the track kills the primary chain...Discussing this with tuners way more experienced than me,.they think coast down on the dyno is hard a primary chain bike with a Triumph type clutch design..


I ride dinosaurs that eat money
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #700410
07/02/17 1:01 am
07/02/17 1:01 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,440
ohio, usa
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hmmmn . . .

Quote
M.A.P. Billet Aluminum 3 Spring pressure plate

Special M.A.P. billet pressure plate is precision manufactured by M.A.P. in the U.S.A. Outbounds pressure allowing less spring tension for easier clutch pull while the "INTERNAL" ball bearing reduces friction and wear for more durability.

A must for all Dry clutches to prevent clutch pushrod seizure.
Decreases clutch assembly weight
Easiest to keep true
Works great with wet clutch setups as well.
Note: Clutch springs are sold separately.


[Linked Image]

anybody ever used one of these? looks like a tiny ball bearing is inserted inside a tubular adjuster screw, which already must be small enough to slip inside the gearbox mainshaft. i don't know what the round pushrod-tube-seal-looking thing is.


"Are bikes so nice as all that?" asked the mole, shyly...

"Nice? They're the only thing," said the Water Rat Solemnly, as he leaned forward on the handlebars. "Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth doing as simply messing about with bikes."
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: chaterlea25] #700412
07/02/17 1:14 am
07/02/17 1:14 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,440
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP

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ohio, usa
Originally Posted by chaterlea25
HI Kevin and All,
http://shop.srmclassicbikes.com/product-category/clutch
I have used the radial needle roller bearing parts shown here to modify several different makes of clutches
with complete success
The pressure plate adjusters are 3/8UNF thread, On a steel pressure plate I used a locknut either side of the plate to hold the adjuster fixed
On another I brazed a nut to the pressure plate
Specify pushrod diamater when ordering

John


hi john.

the SRM catalog doesn't show the back of the pressure plate, but here's the bearing and the adjuster. the plate must have a machined recess for the bearing to sit against, and the hollow adjuster sits on the end of the pushrod and pushes on the back of th ebearing to lift the plate. makes sense, and might be adaptable to the newby plate with some machine work. is that how you did it?

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


"Are bikes so nice as all that?" asked the mole, shyly...

"Nice? They're the only thing," said the Water Rat Solemnly, as he leaned forward on the handlebars. "Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth doing as simply messing about with bikes."
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #700439
07/02/17 11:17 am
07/02/17 11:17 am
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 853
Edgewater, Md
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Blown Income Offline

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Edgewater, Md
Kevin,

Looks to me like pull rod was adjusted too tight. The Newby on my A10 has been installed since 2005 and I have had this happen early on due to being over tight.

Being were only really concerned with high gear I would adjust with say 3/4 turn on the nut, this should give just enough clearance to disengage to shift but makes sure your fully engaged in high gear. I also have the springs on both the A10 and A65 wound down to were the nuts are almost flush with the studs.

One good thing at Loring is BCS is right there if you need any parts, hopefully you won't but just in case.


1955 BSA Bantam D1 Plunger
1956 BSA A10RR Street and LSR Bike
1961 BSA C15S
1966 BSA spitfire
1969 Triumph T100C
1970 Triumph TR6R
1970 Triumph TR6C
1972 BSA Lightning LSR Bike
1974 Triumph T150V
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #700440
07/02/17 11:23 am
07/02/17 11:23 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,021
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Online content
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Running from demons in WNY
In the past, well before the internet I saw a this modification and tried it..... Cut off about an inch from the clutch rod...Then get a ball bearing, 3/16 I believe it was....Then cut off 3/16 from the longer rod piece...Harden and anneal all ends....From the clutch side, insert the longer rod, ball and short rod ,lubricate all parts....However I was not having a problem but did it just because...
On the MAP plate with the long quill adjuster...I see it as possibly binding if the springs are uneven tension?


I ride dinosaurs that eat money
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #700450
07/02/17 1:13 pm
07/02/17 1:13 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 426
Iowa
konon Online content

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I use the MAP pressure plate, makes the pull lighter. Easy to adjust for even lift. The round gasket goes under the inspection plug in the primary cover , more clearance with center adjuster.


1968 BSA Firebird
1200 HD
XS 1100
1972 Rickman 125
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #700452
07/02/17 1:23 pm
07/02/17 1:23 pm
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Posts: 496
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pushrod tom Offline
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Other Tom has it pretty right! After the pull leave the motor running and either brake the drum or just let it decel and downshift normally till you get to neutral, and then shut off motor. Dyno guy should know this. We usually do 2 or 3 pulls at a time to make sure we don't have any anomalies. Dyno guy will probably monitor head temp.
If the clutch is way tighter than it needs to be it will stress all of the actuation causing premature failure. If you have a chance/feel like it turn screws out 1 turn and try it. PRT

PS no need for fancy clutch doo-dads.

Re: mail-order LSR [Re: pushrod tom] #700454
07/02/17 1:51 pm
07/02/17 1:51 pm
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Posts: 4,440
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP

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time is short, so i think i'm going to run with just a bit more freeplay,at first. this clutch performed flawlessly at all testing stages before the dyno, and ran a dozen times or more at wilmington. but i'll bring a box with a complete wet primary drive assembly and chain as insurance.



"Are bikes so nice as all that?" asked the mole, shyly...

"Nice? They're the only thing," said the Water Rat Solemnly, as he leaned forward on the handlebars. "Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth doing as simply messing about with bikes."
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #700457
07/02/17 2:51 pm
07/02/17 2:51 pm
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Posts: 496
new jersey usa
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pushrod tom Offline
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That plan should work perfectly!! I am very busy now........ waiting for parts.

Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #700459
07/02/17 3:00 pm
07/02/17 3:00 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,021
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Online content
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Running from demons in WNY
I went to Ohio three times and Maine once with a spare set of spark plugs ,a few jets, a spare battery and a few hand tools, nothing else...Now that I think about it it's pretty ballsy for me to haul it all that way and think the machine would be totally reliable ...But it was... lucky for me...


I ride dinosaurs that eat money
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #700471
07/02/17 4:47 pm
07/02/17 4:47 pm
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^^^This is why you continue to be so frustrating. you don't worry like i do, but just go out and set records and drink tequila.

i take a complete spare chain, extra master links, safety wire and safety wire pliers, tubes, duplicate deadman switch, a couple of extra disposable toggle kill switches, a complete set of motor mount bolts, points, timing belt, a box of plugs, rotors, zip ties, oil, funnels, rags, primary wire, crimp end fittings, complete set of jetted carburetors fitted with cables and a duplicate twist grip, extra jets and needles, extra throttle and clutch cables, chain lube, brake clean, wire dryer, fuel line, hose clamps, axle fixing nuts, clutch center nut, rotor fixing nut, square keys, woodruff keys, valves cores, lock washers for rotor, clutch, and swingarm, swing arm nut, front fork nuts, brake fluid, clutch buttons, clutch springs and cups, spare primary belt, plus anything else i can think of.

the first time i took the bike out, i got two runs before i sheared the nubbin inside the bakelite magneto rotor. an easy five-minute fix, if i only had brought an extra rotor. so i take everything i think i might need but not be able to get.

plus a bunch of tools.

right now i'm waiting for a five-dollar clutch adjuster screw to come from britain, because i continue to be a moron and didn't order any spares when i last got some stuff from newby. if it doesn't arrive, i'll install a hardware-store set screw and run with that and some grease.


"Are bikes so nice as all that?" asked the mole, shyly...

"Nice? They're the only thing," said the Water Rat Solemnly, as he leaned forward on the handlebars. "Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth doing as simply messing about with bikes."
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #700473
07/02/17 4:54 pm
07/02/17 4:54 pm
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Posts: 4,440
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP

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kevin just remembered he can't retro-fit the wet primary because he took out the adjuster mechanism and blanked the mounting holes . . .

worry, worry, worry . . .

lol


"Are bikes so nice as all that?" asked the mole, shyly...

"Nice? They're the only thing," said the Water Rat Solemnly, as he leaned forward on the handlebars. "Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth doing as simply messing about with bikes."
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #700494
07/02/17 6:40 pm
07/02/17 6:40 pm
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Posts: 477
Cork Ireland
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chaterlea25 Online content
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Hi Kevin,
The piece in your second photo screws into the threaded pressure plate from the inside , held with a locknut on the outside same as original adjuster
The pusher shown on the webpage, sits into the gearbox mainshaft, the pushrod is shortened to suit and rehardened
the nub on the pusher locates the bearing and sits into the end of the adjuster
Its a million times better than the MAP offering !!!

HTH
John

Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #700501
07/02/17 7:57 pm
07/02/17 7:57 pm
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Posts: 189
Nova Scotia, Canada
K
koncretekid Offline
BritBike Forum member
koncretekid  Offline
BritBike Forum member
K

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 189
Nova Scotia, Canada
"..............................plus anything else i can think of."

So we all know whose pit to go to if we need something. Thanks; I'll be able to leave a few things out this year.

In fact, I even took an entire spare transmission to Bonneville last year, and had to use it too!

Kevin, I'll be at Loring but only with a different B.S. (as in Bridgestone, as my BSA has decided to stay in Colorado.)


Life's uncertain - go fast now!
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