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#612298 - 08/10/15 3:57 pm Re: A65 porting and throttle response video. [Re: Allan Gill]  
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Florida PanHandle
Originally Posted By Allan Gill
I take it to haven't used many welding type materials including solder.

If you solder a joint, that same solder which melted easily off the wire is now a lot harder to melt than the re-heat temp required

Same for mig weld, and also lumiweld.



No offense meant sir,

The melting point of the solder/filler rod does not change once it has been applied. It appears to melt at a higher temp because itis no longer a thin wire. It is now a pool or bead that combined with the base metal has a very large heat sink to remove heat from a centralized area.

The melting point of the solder/Lumiweld/filler rod stay exactly the same.
On exhaust ports I would use either a high temp putty or fill with the same metal ie: welding or spraying.

Just my 2 cents, and opinion.

#612300 - 08/10/15 4:09 pm Re: A65 porting and throttle response video. [Re: Mark Parker]  
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Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
Most port tuners in this country use "Splash" epoxy on the intakes.It's a marine epoxy and supposedly has better fuel resistance than the others. Epoxy failure seems more linked to fuel than heat.If fuel by alcohol a coating is applied over the epoxy.
And it seems that claims of high temperature true epoxies are false. Most fail at about 350F despite what the manufacturers claim.
I don't have all the details handy but and hour of research on the internet will bring up lots of info from reputable sources.

This is an efficient intake port on an aftermarket head for the common Chevy V-8. It clearly shows the raised port and then the long drop before the valve.And the burr finish..






"Splash Zone" is the product. I have a couple tins in the shop.

I have used it as a Temp. repair on leaking exhaust manifolds where there is a water jacket on the other side of the repair. It does not readily burn off so I can see where it could work on the intake side.
It does not tool very well though. It tends to break into tiny chips or balls if you try to run a tap into it. Sort of a granular surface. That could be a pluss tho for roughing up an intake tract.


That finish in your pict is almost perfect. That is what I try to emulate with a thread tap in a drill or air grinder.
I never tried it in a combustion chamber tho. Mechanically/thermally/or in dynamic flow aspects, it does not make sense to me. I polish piston domes, and combustion chambers to create an unimpeded flow of mix, and nothing to create hot spots.

Perhaps one day I might try it to see. Not today.

#612302 - 08/10/15 4:11 pm Re: A65 porting and throttle response video. [Re: Hillbilly bike]  
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Running from demons in WNY
This is a good example....On the top is a Harley XR750 intake port. It has a generous short side radius and distance before the intake valve. The XR is well developed making about 2 HP per cubic inch, quite impressive for an OHV engine on gasoline.
The other is a Norton intake port that many say is superior to a Triumph port. Less distance from the radius to the valve.



650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#612304 - 08/10/15 4:27 pm Re: A65 porting and throttle response video. [Re: Mark Parker]  
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Florida PanHandle
Very cool.

A picture says a thousand words.

#612403 - 08/11/15 10:10 am Re: A65 porting and throttle response video. [Re: Mark Parker]  
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Exhaust ports XR and Norton. Harley XR750 intakes are pretty cool. What I'm trying to copy into an old A65 head. Will have to add metal to get width and maybe to get height, though it's getting pretty close without.

XR750 intake port is on here:
http://www.accessnorton.com/norton-intake-ports-compared-harley-750-t16544.html


mark
#612404 - 08/11/15 10:30 am Re: A65 porting and throttle response video. [Re: Mark Parker]  
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Running from demons in WNY
Opps,got carried away with my own BS grin

Last edited by Hillbilly bike; 08/11/15 12:10 pm.

650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#612553 - 08/12/15 10:29 am Re: A65 porting and throttle response video. [Re: Mark Parker]  
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The standard A65 port flows around 110CFM the idea that a big valve needs high lift to make an impression isn't correct, flow is increased at all lifts; about 13CFM better at .087", 15CFM at .175" 33CFM at .262" 45CFM at .349". Naturally lift can give more flow and keep the valve around where there is high flow longer, but ports can get to a point where more lift doesn't accomplish much.

The XR750 head, was based on the Gold Star 350 head, and has been developed to flow up to 234CFM. It will be interesting to see what that style port does on the BSA.


mark
#612559 - 08/12/15 11:02 am Re: A65 porting and throttle response video. [Re: Mark Parker]  
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Just for comparison,a decent 350 Chevy V8 port flows about 230 cfm at .500 lift. 44 cubic inch cylinder making about 50 HP at 6000 rpm on a street engine.


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#612658 - 08/12/15 8:34 pm Re: A65 porting and throttle response video. [Re: Mark Parker]  
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Mark, you've cast your own barrels, why not a head with the downdraft you want and the obvious 4 valves, pent roof etc? You are chasing your'e tail with hemi motors this size. While you are at it DOHC could be considered?

Puma engineering in the UK machined a head for Ian Waugh's westlake out of a solid lump of Dural,
beautiful job, bronze skull and all. It's only time and money after all.........



#612696 - 08/13/15 3:43 am Re: A65 porting and throttle response video. [Re: Mark Parker]  
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This port shape might be the holy grail Nick. The port is not that big, its just shaped different. I have a fair few 2V heads and it's fun carving em. Just wish I had my own flow bench.


mark
#612701 - 08/13/15 4:46 am Re: A65 porting and throttle response video. [Re: Mark Parker]  
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Florida PanHandle
An eBay anemometer, and a leaf blower. All in for around 75 bucks.


#612723 - 08/13/15 9:24 am Re: A65 porting and throttle response video. [Re: Mark Parker]  
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It would have to suck the air through the port. If it was set up with a vacuum pulling through it like a bench and the meter was fixed to the manifold so air could only go through the meter, maybe it would show up the differences of various valve lifts, and the differences between port shapes. A vacuum cleaner or two should provide the same vacuum each time. Maybe some sort of plenum sealed to the inlet manifold with the air having to enter the plenum through the meter may work better. And I have flow readings on two different ports that could prove if the thing could indicate flow differences.


mark
#612747 - 08/13/15 12:31 pm Re: A65 porting and throttle response video. [Re: Mark Parker]  
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That was my thinking... something to show difference more so than NASCAR certifications.

I'm sure that manifold adapters could be rigged up pretty easily.

#612832 - 08/13/15 9:46 pm Re: A65 porting and throttle response video. [Re: Mark Parker]  
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Mark
Inexpensive flow benches have been around now for forty years so used ones can be picked up fairly reasonable so I think you should look into getting yourself one then you can see your improvements or lack of as you shape your ports rather than rely on the seat of the pants method.
I do have to say though your ports look good for not having bench to tweak with.

#612866 - 08/14/15 7:32 am Re: A65 porting and throttle response video. [Re: Mark Parker]  
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You can make your own. A single 15 amp shop vac will only pull around 5" H2O, but the numbers are comparable to each other. The measuring device is an anemometer used by HVAC people to check air flow and will read out in velocity or CFM but it doesn't really which scale you set it on as you will not be able to compare your results with a true flow bench unless you have it professionally flowed first and then the results can be calibrated.

You have to add a manometer to ensure you always get the same level of vacuum in your "plenum", which in this case is 4" PVC tubing.

Adjacent to the shop vac are a large valve to adjust vacuum and a small valve to fine tune. These allow excess vacuum to bleed off to atmosphere.
Shopvac set-up under the bench.
Testing one of Ed V.'s works of art, my B50 cylinder head. Notice the valve depressor (1/8"x1" flat bar), and the dial indicator to show lift. You can use a light gauge spring on the valve stem. The exhaust valve is left in place when testing the intake. You don't have to have the carb and filter in place to make changes, but it is interesting to check the effect of adding these.
Tom


Life's uncertain - go fast now!
#612869 - 08/14/15 8:28 am Re: A65 porting and throttle response video. [Re: Mark Parker]  
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Brilliant. I ordered a digital meter off eBay, and if your wife's ok with the hole in the dining table it probably won't create that much drama.

I have flow tests on two ports so could calibrate of those known values.

Had some time tonight for working on it. The photo doesn't show the depth very well but the port on the right now has one curve sweeping over the top of the port. The old port on the left does not have a smooth sweep, it has compound turns, even when I was filling the floor in other ports it was compound curves, it went up then over the hump of the curve. I now have more JBweld setting in the port floor so I can make one curve sweeping over to the valve, it gets tighter but doesn't reverse direction. This and the need to make it work in this head has the oval port lower as it meets the manifold. It then angles higher and makes one sweeping turn down onto the valve from higher in the head than before. (the lens in my phone doesn't work well for showing the depth)Having the port entry lower I cannot see making a difference but I'm sure the sweep of the port will. Air should make one turn in the port rather than swerving back and forth, and at high speed a smooth turn like the Harley XR750 port, it's going to be similar to, must be better.



mark
#613006 - 08/15/15 8:18 am Re: A65 porting and throttle response video. [Re: Mark Parker]  
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" I ordered a digital meter off eBay, and if your wife's ok with the hole in the dining table it probably won't create that much drama."

I just save the hole and scabbed it back in. She never noticed!

The measuring head of the anemometer is just set in a slot in the 4" PVC and couplers used to complete the plumbing using duct tape to seal it. I didn't glue anything so it's easy to disassemble. When you start with small valve openings, be sure to have both bleed-off valves fully open or you can suck the colored water right out of the manometer. Close the large ball valve slowly (I use a rubber mallet to tap it) until the manometer gets close to desired numbers, i.e. plus 2" and minus 2", then use the smaller globe valve to fine tune the numbers. The meter also indicates temperature, which I wrote down but since temperature didn't vary much, I didn't take it into account. You might be able to get more than 5" H2O, but my intake is 1.875" with .500" lift, at which I could not get much more than 5" when wide open.

I have a question about the 234CFM for the XR750 cylinder head. At what vacuum was that measured? Some flow benches use 28" H2O while others use 10", so it is important to know.

Last edited by koncretekid; 08/15/15 8:24 am.

Life's uncertain - go fast now!
#613014 - 08/15/15 9:07 am Re: A65 porting and throttle response video. [Re: Mark Parker]  
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Looking at the mold of the XR intake port, and it being widened out on each side of the guide, I would think there would be a loss in velocity. Interesting.


1968 BSA Firebird
1200 HD
XS 1100
1971 Rickman 125
#613021 - 08/15/15 10:18 am Re: A65 porting and throttle response video. [Re: Mark Parker]  
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"Looking at the mold of the XR intake port, and it being widened out on each side of the guide, I would think there would be a loss in velocity. Interesting."

Yes it's a very interesting port shape, you would think the A65 head wouldn't have the material to take the inlet port so high. But what it does is divide with that widening so the guide is still well held because you don't take material from it's support, you go around and take material from the sides. In profile the oval port is only 28mm at the port entry and 26mm just before the guide, it's 41.5mm wide at the entry and out to 49mm either side the guide, though I haven't got that width in the A65 head yet. I have 39mm and 43mm, I could get more probably but I want to measure the volume first, I'd rather lose a little flow and have more velocity in the midrange, than have a motor that is all top end.

As for velocity, if the oval port is the same volume as the previous round port I had tested, and it flows more air, the velocity would have to be higher.

The lowness in profile allows a nice smooth turn down onto the valve, this I expect makes for less turbulence and airflow break up on S bends. The air in the port can travel very fast so I'm trying to get the port as true and smooth as possible. A circular port, 38mm in profile cannot make a nice smooth turn because there is not room for it, it breaks into the valve spring area and still cannot get a good turn. The oval port uses the space much better, the only place the head breaks through is between the fins on the outside, and this is easily fixed with JBWeld. The port floor is built up, but the port doesn't break through into the valve spring area.

The head I'm working on previously had a 38mm round port so it has more fill than if it was a stock head I started with.


Where I'm up to. The manifold bolt holes are helicoiled to a smaller dia. The dark patches in the port is JBWeld:



Flow figures at 28" my ports were flowed at 10" but multiplying by 1.675 transposes to an equivalent of 28" like most figures I've been looking at.

Last edited by Mark Parker; 08/15/15 10:23 am.

mark
#613109 - 08/16/15 3:54 am Re: A65 porting and throttle response video. [Re: Mark Parker]  
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Nice port work Mark. Am I correct in thinking that you have added epoxy to the roof to create the dividing effect?

Very similar to what I did the other year






The yellow putty is miliput which is easier to work with and harder to cut through - making it less likely to slip crazy

It had the 43.5mm valves fitted and acceleration was excellent when complimented with a high lift cam, but I found the cam timing and the big valves were a little too close for comfort and a 3/4" radius tapper had to be used to avoid valve-piston collision. Jetting was also very different from the previous head modification and required a much richer jetting either in the lower jetting or at the main her to run properly ( so wrangling the choke was used to get it to go on testing)


I will also get the chance to have a go with the big port head on the 650


beerchug
#613126 - 08/16/15 9:11 am Re: A65 porting and throttle response video. [Re: Mark Parker]  
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Allan, I have fill in the top of the port because the head was previously ported to 38mm and the oval port is only 28mm x 40. If I'd started with a std head there would be little to no fill in the roof, the ridge to the guide would be there from what was cut from the roof either side of it.


mark
#613130 - 08/16/15 9:21 am Re: A65 porting and throttle response video. [Re: Mark Parker]  
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So with the flow test rig, are you adjusting the vacuum under the head to be a constant figure at all valve lifts then measuring the quantity of air going through?


mark
#613371 - 08/17/15 7:19 pm Re: A65 porting and throttle response video. [Re: Mark Parker]  
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Hi Folks,

Check this thread on B50.org

http://b50.org/index2.htm search thread "B44/B50 Race Tune" in 'Tech' in the forum. (If anyone can replace this with an active link to the page please do so)

This discusses in part A65 ports (with comparisons to singles) and some strategies around the poor design. Mark, I know velocity is important for your design. I wonder if Mark, your profile also helps get flow through the carb side of the valve. Wonder if the 'marilyn monroe' design causes enough redirection of the flow as well to get full use of the valve opening. Just a thought. I'm only an interested observer here and just musing.

Ray


BSA 1969 A65F
BSA 1966 A65H
Triumph 1968 T120
Kawasaki A1R
& too many projects!
#613418 - 08/18/15 7:51 am Re: A65 porting and throttle response video. [Re: Mark Parker]  
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Thanks Ray, that's interesting. The port I'm doing is 6mm deeper into the roof and the floor is raised. I've ordered some silicon rubber to take a cast of the port so I can see how it is, see what might need fixing.

The XR port expands out and curves down as it passes the guide like two runners. The curves may work as a means of directing the air over all the valve. When I get a rig set up so I can measure flow I'll experiment a bit. If it flows real well I'll do the other side and stick it on the bike.


mark
#613978 - 08/22/15 6:59 am Re: A65 porting and throttle response video. [Re: Mark Parker]  
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I made a casting of the port, it sure helps to see the actual shape. It's probably a bit big just before the valve, but I'll see how it flows and try adding filler.

At the moment it has the exact volume as the old open port shape. So the technical question I have is; if it flows appreciably more air, as I hope it will, then flow speed would be greater. And maybe that would translate to better bottom end and midrange? I guess I need to see what it flows.





mark
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