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Sludge Trap? #451996
09/01/12 4:37 am
09/01/12 4:37 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,039
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Offline OP
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HawaiianTiger  Offline OP
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Maui Hawaii
I have a friend who is contemplating leaving out the sludge trap tube on his 650. Other than possibly changing the balance factor I can't think of any other down side to this. He will run an external oil filter.
Any input is appreciated in advance.
Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
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Re: Sludge Trap? [Re: HawaiianTiger] #451997
09/01/12 5:07 am
09/01/12 5:07 am
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Vic. Australia
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Pete R - R.I.P. Offline
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I'd estimate the sludge trap tube would weigh about 25 gms.The oil that replaces it will weigh about 2.5 gms.

So you get about 22.5 gms more counterweight,when the crank is full of oil.That works out to about 2.6% of the reciprocating mass;not a huge change in balance factor.

It sounds like a good idea to me.How smart is it to collect the trash inside the crank,where it can eventually block oil supply?

Re: Sludge Trap? [Re: HawaiianTiger] #452007
09/01/12 7:06 am
09/01/12 7:06 am
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Posts: 7,604
scotland
triton thrasher Offline
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Does removing the tube stop trash collection in the crank?


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Sludge Trap? [Re: triton thrasher] #452022
09/01/12 10:57 am
09/01/12 10:57 am
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,558
Scotland
kommando Offline
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kommando  Offline
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Quote
Does removing the tube stop trash collection in the crank?


No, the Unit Singles have no tube and the space still fills up as does the Norton crank, so after a few 1000 mile the weight will be back to normal.

Re: Sludge Trap? [Re: HawaiianTiger] #452023
09/01/12 11:16 am
09/01/12 11:16 am
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,667
East Bethany New York
Dick Harris Offline
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Dick Harris  Offline
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East Bethany New York
It will probably work----- for a while!! I wouldn't do it. Dick

Re: Sludge Trap? [Re: kommando] #452028
09/01/12 12:12 pm
09/01/12 12:12 pm
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scotland
triton thrasher Offline
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Originally Posted by kommando
Quote
Does removing the tube stop trash collection in the crank?


No, the Unit Singles have no tube and the space still fills up as does the Norton crank, so after a few 1000 mile the weight will be back to normal.


The weight won't go back to normal, because you've removed a steel tube. The sludge buildup is mostly what could be described as lamp black, which will weigh about the same as oil.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Sludge Trap? [Re: HawaiianTiger] #452035
09/01/12 12:56 pm
09/01/12 12:56 pm
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 509
melbourne, australia
7
76degree-triumph Offline
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melbourne, australia
Gday HT, last year I pulled apart the 76 degree crank for the 1st time in 5 years of racing on that crank.
It had sludge in it, around 1/8th thick in the deepest part of the radius, imagine a 'D' shape on the inside of the journal(Im using Norton halves).
I have always run a modern style filter on it and change oil very frequently, maybe 50 miles between changes.
And I still found old hard sludge.
Tell ya mate to keep the tube.


1950 Speed Twin outfit
1951 Thunderbird outfit (76 degree racebike, or is it 90 deg now?)
1955 BSA D3 minibike outfit
Triumph solo's
Re: Sludge Trap? [Re: HawaiianTiger] #452041
09/01/12 1:19 pm
09/01/12 1:19 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,558
Scotland
kommando Offline
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Quote
The sludge buildup is mostly what could be described as lamp black, which will weigh about the same as oil.


The sludge is trapped because it is heavier than oil, if it was the same density it would not be trapped as it would not be forced outwards by the rotation of the crank.

Re: Sludge Trap? [Re: HawaiianTiger] #452042
09/01/12 1:26 pm
09/01/12 1:26 pm
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 509
melbourne, australia
7
76degree-triumph Offline
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melbourne, australia
Hey Kommando, the more the miles the more the sludge. If it gets smoother then strip it down and take weights!


1950 Speed Twin outfit
1951 Thunderbird outfit (76 degree racebike, or is it 90 deg now?)
1955 BSA D3 minibike outfit
Triumph solo's
Re: Sludge Trap? [Re: kommando] #452070
09/01/12 4:23 pm
09/01/12 4:23 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
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scotland
triton thrasher Offline
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scotland
Originally Posted by kommando
Quote
The sludge buildup is mostly what could be described as lamp black, which will weigh about the same as oil.


The sludge is trapped because it is heavier than oil, if it was the same density it would not be trapped as it would not be forced outwards by the rotation of the crank.


Hmm. Yes, the individual particles separated out in the crank are denser than the oil. The mass of impacted particles in the sludge is probably less dense than an individual particle, because of spaces between particles. Still somewhat denser than oil, I guess, but much lighter than steel, which I think is the point. The crank will not regain its former balance by the process of the steel tube being replaced by sludge.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Sludge Trap? [Re: HawaiianTiger] #452073
09/01/12 4:41 pm
09/01/12 4:41 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 269
E
EWebster Offline
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The sludge trap catches things that can breeze through paper filters.

Re: Sludge Trap? [Re: EWebster] #452084
09/01/12 5:23 pm
09/01/12 5:23 pm
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Posts: 5,963
NL
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Ger B Offline
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NL
Quote
The sludge trap catches things that can breeze through paper filters

If particles can breeze through a paper filter, is it worth the efforts of catching them?
If they are that small, can they harm bearings and pump gears?
If they can not, why not let them circulate, and throw them away at the next oil change?

Just wondering...


Ger B

Re: Sludge Trap? [Re: HawaiianTiger] #452096
09/01/12 6:43 pm
09/01/12 6:43 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,039
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Offline OP
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Maui Hawaii
Well, that cleared things up. NOT. But thanks for the responses everyone.
I would have thought that modern oils suspend dirt particles and then are flushed out when the oil is changed, keeping the sludge trap much cleaner than in the olden days when this feature was designed.
Problem is, the engines I have built in the past still have not been down for repairs since they only see 1k miles a year max. I may never see the insides of an engine I've built.
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: Sludge Trap? [Re: HawaiianTiger] #452146
09/01/12 10:54 pm
09/01/12 10:54 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,223
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline

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Posts: 10,223
Boston, Massachusetts
Bill:

Centrifugal filters are one of the best ways of getting microscopic particles out of a fluid. If you hold those particles in suspension, as modern oil does, they will eventually make their way to the crankshaft. Once inside, the centrifugal force pushes the particles out against the outer part of the cavity. Even with low mileage oil changes those particles produced between changes will collect in the sludge trap. The sludge tube will filter particles small enough to pass through a lot of oil filters. The trouble with the sludge tube is it is too good...

Change your oil frequently, especially during periods where the engine is used for short trips and/or in conditions that will create a lot of condensation inside the engine.


Re: Sludge Trap? [Re: HawaiianTiger] #452170
09/02/12 12:11 am
09/02/12 12:11 am
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
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Pete R - R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Pete R - R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
It's true what 76degree-triumph says.One half (or almost half) of the hole can still fill up with sludge.After that,it's still almost impossible for the oil holes to the journals to become blocked.

The chances of blockage are higher with the tube fitted.I remember one that was maybe 4 years old.It was a '70 T100R,and I worked on it in '73 or '74.It had thrown a rod and damaged the crankcase.You couldn't push a 1/8" drill down the centre of the sludge trap tube without using a hammer.

It wouldn't have happened if it got some oil to the big ends,even if that oil was a little dirty.



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