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#443056 - 07/03/12 9:19 pm Fine tuning an A65  
Joined: Apr 2010
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Barry_Surrey Offline
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Camberley, Surrey, UK
Hi,

My 1963 A65 Star doesn't have any timing marks or that plug thing that goes in the crankcase. So it was a little fiddly setting up the electronic ignition. It is running but needs a little tweak. So can you tell me what I should be looking for to tell me if I should be advancing or retarding the ignition a little bit? I have a new carb fitted with standard set-up so I think I can safely assume the fuel mix is right except maybe slow running. Sometimes when I wind the throttle open it has a moment before the revs start to pick up.

Any advice?

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#443066 - 07/03/12 10:44 pm Re: Fine tuning an A65 [Re: Barry_Surrey]  
Joined: Oct 2001
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Ola Offline
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Norway
Advance till you hear it pings on low revs with full throttle, then retard a bit, and you should be there. Screwing in the air mixture screw a bit, might cure your acceleration problem.

Best regards


There are no bosses in a technical discussion
(Doug Hele, 1919 - 2001)
#443097 - 07/04/12 7:15 am Re: Fine tuning an A65 [Re: Barry_Surrey]  
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Barry_Surrey Offline
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Barry_Surrey  Offline
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Camberley, Surrey, UK
Hi,

I am using a Pazon ignition too.

I couldn't work out how/where to attach a timing disk so I found TDC with a rod and moved it back measuring down the plug hole. It is fiddly doing this and I don't have much faith in it being totally accurate. But it runs.

So should I try and set it up so that it pinks slightly under heavy load? My old MG car I used to aim for a slight pink when in top gear and accelerating hard from 30 to 50 mph? Does that sound about right?

#443107 - 07/04/12 8:59 am Re: Fine tuning an A65 [Re: ]  
Joined: Feb 2012
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photobob Offline
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photobob  Offline
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UK Tyne & Wear
Agree with Alan Gill on the setting to use 37 degrees I have an A65 Star 1963 and have Pazon fitted,I did contact Pazon about the correct setting as they say 34 degrees but the manual says 37 degrees. Their reply was to try both and use whichever you think is best. I have tried both and reckon 37 is better. I fit the disc on the end of the crankshaft on the primary side and make a pointer out of coathanger wire which fastens to one of the primary cover fixing holes the main thing is to make sure that you have top dead centre and that the disc is firmly fitted so that it does not move while turning backwards.

#443180 - 07/04/12 6:56 pm Re: Fine tuning an A65 [Re: Barry_Surrey]  
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Posts: 792
Richard Phillips Offline
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San Luis Obispo, CA
After setting static timing on early bikes, I like to use a later rotor with the timing mark window. I have a spare 67 Lightning/ Thunderbolt primary cover with pointer. (pointer is attached to the left sided hole). Attach a timing light to a battery and spark plug wire, rev the motor to 3000+ and watch the pointers travel picture. Correct timing/full advance is set when pointer and rotor mark line up at 3000 rpm.
I then mark the timing on the ignition side for reference (electronic or points plates) I can now adjust the timing for the fuel available.

#443394 - 07/06/12 1:33 am Re: Fine tuning an A65 [Re: Richard Phillips]  
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Pete R - R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Pete R - R.I.P.  Offline
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Vic. Australia
If the ignition is electronic,you'd be setting it at 5000 rpm.You wouldn't have reached full advance at 3000 rpm.

In any case,rev it until you you reach full advance and there is no more advance left.

#443413 - 07/06/12 5:49 am Re: Fine tuning an A65 [Re: Barry_Surrey]  
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DavidP Offline
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Gnashville
FWIW: I've found that the Pazon reaches full advance at around 5000rpm and actually retards a little after that point.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
#443442 - 07/06/12 12:41 pm Re: Fine tuning an A65 [Re: Barry_Surrey]  
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Alex Offline
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Alex  Offline

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Seattle
Brian,

The way I do this on bikes that don't have the timing marks is fairly straightforward and foregoes a degree wheel. It's almost impossible to tighten down the alternator nut without disturbing the degree wheel anyway. So, here goes:

1. remove the primary cover and spark plugs
2. attach a piece of wire (safety wire, baling wire, anyting) either to a cover screw or one of the alternator nuts. A piece of wire crimped to an eyelet electrical connector actually works really nice.
3. Find TDC. There are a number of ways to do this, but a timing stop works well for me. I made one from an old spark plug with the insulator removed and tapped for a setscrew (I don't remember the size right now...maybe 7/16")
3a. With the timing stop inserted, adjust so that the piston hits the stop just before and after tdc. Mark the positions where this occurs on the alternator rotor. Halfway in between will be TDC. Mark or scribe this and remove the two other marks to avoid confusion.
4. Now measure 0.9" (7/8"is close enough) in the counterclockwise direction on the rotor and make another mark. Make this one easily visible, I find liquid paper correction fluid works nicely.
5. Find a friend to help you with this: Start the motor and, once warmed, rev until the timing stops advancing (if you have a tach, 5000 rpm ensures you're there). Have one person do the revving and holding the bike while the other looks at the timing with a strobe. Rotate the ignition stator until the advanced mark lines up with your pointer. Clockwise to advance,Counterclockwise to retard.

This should get you right on the money.


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
#443451 - 07/06/12 2:31 pm Re: Fine tuning an A65 [Re: Barry_Surrey]  
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,200
Semper Gumby Offline
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Semper Gumby  Offline
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Posts: 2,200
Atlanta, GA USA
Originally Posted By: Barry_Surrey
Hi,

My 1963 A65 Star doesn't have any timing marks or that plug thing that goes in the crankcase. So it was a little fiddly setting up the electronic ignition. It is running but needs a little tweak. So can you tell me what I should be looking for to tell me if I should be advancing or retarding the ignition a little bit? I have a new carb fitted with standard set-up so I think I can safely assume the fuel mix is right except maybe slow running. Sometimes when I wind the throttle open it has a moment before the revs start to pick up.

Any advice?


Hi Barry,

You have the solid primary cover with no access to the rotor, its timing marks and primary chain. You might borrow a latter model primary cover with the forward access hole. That way you can at least get a strobe on it to see where you are.

On your Star, the original timing procedure was different than the latter A65s. The BSA procedure called to set the piston back 1/32" from TDC so that you could set the "idle" advance. Alex's procedure should works just fine for setting full advance which is the way all the electronic ignitions are static set. I would find TDC and then put a degree wheel on the crank and turn it back 34 degrees. Then if you want to you can get a metal rod and put it in the spark plug hole rest it on the piston and scribe a line on the rod even with the top of the cylinder head where the cylinder head and the cylinder cover meet. Now you have a simple tool that you can set full advance every time without taking the primary cover off and putting a degree wheel on. I'm pretty sure that the Star full advance was 34 degrees, later more high performance bikes were 37 degrees.

Do not turn you crank backwards more than is neccessary to find 34 degrees. Turning the crank completely backwards more than this will damage you oil pump. It is a postitive dsplacement pump with a ball chack valve on the output side. Running the pump backwards i.e. turning the crank backwards will cause the pump to suck on this closed check valve and might cause leaks at the seams of the pump which as we all know is BAD in an A65.

Also on the Star there is a feature not on the later A65's. The primary chain adjuster is hollow. Get another metal rod (coat hanger) when it comes time to set the primary chain tension, remove the lock nuts on the bottom of the adjuster. Insert the rod from the bottom and push it up. When it touches the slipper inside the primary it should push the chain up lightly about 1/8" - 1/4" before it stops. If there is no slack in the chain then turn the adjuster out until there is 1/8" to 1/4" of slack in the primary chain. If its more than 1/4" slack then turn the adjuster in. Retighten the lock nuts when done. This is because of the solid primary side cover on the early bikes. Like i said at the beginning, getting a latter model cover to set things up would be nice. Then you could put a strobe on it and "finger" the primary chain tension like the rest of us.

Good luck.

Last edited by Semper Gumby; 07/06/12 4:27 pm.

Gaggle of BSAs
a Honda
an old BMW
and a Montesa
Parking lot Elf in training
#443455 - 07/06/12 2:47 pm Re: Fine tuning an A65 [Re: Barry_Surrey]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,871
Mr Mike Offline
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Cape Carteret, NC
I tape a scale near the spark plug hole and stick a wooden dowel or a pencil in the spark plug hole with a marked line on it
I then rotate the engine to TDC and then go backwards the right amount that corresponds with the advance. Some manuals even have this number. It is about 3/8ths of an inch....maybe a little less. I then set the timing and test run with a slight advance or retard adjustment to suit my bikes condition, its carburation and my riding preferences.
Easy and no special tools. Fuel makes a big difference and often times on the A65 I have to retard a little bit to avoid pinking. It's the nature of the beast w/o lower compression pistons and a polish job.

Mr Mike

#443460 - 07/06/12 3:19 pm Re: Fine tuning an A65 [Re: Barry_Surrey]  
Joined: Sep 2002
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Alex Offline
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Alex  Offline

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Seattle
Bill, I should have been more clear in my procedure that it is for Strobe timing at 37 degrees. Electronic ignitions MUST be strobe timed. There is way too much variance in the advance curve to only time them statically.


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
#443470 - 07/06/12 4:26 pm Re: Fine tuning an A65 [Re: Alex]  
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Posts: 2,200
Semper Gumby Offline
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Semper Gumby  Offline
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Posts: 2,200
Atlanta, GA USA
Originally Posted By: Alex
Bill, I should have been more clear in my procedure that it is for Strobe timing at 37 degrees. Electronic ignitions MUST be strobe timed. There is way too much variance in the advance curve to only time them statically.


Agreed!


Gaggle of BSAs
a Honda
an old BMW
and a Montesa
Parking lot Elf in training
#443478 - 07/06/12 5:33 pm Re: Fine tuning an A65 [Re: Barry_Surrey]  
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,896
kommando Online content
kommando  Online Content


Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,896
Scotland
I replaced just the black box on a Boyer, the stator and rotor were untouched and the box I took out was perfectly timed. The replacement box made the timing so retarded the pipe blued up in seconds before I could stobe it.

#443495 - 07/06/12 7:41 pm Re: Fine tuning an A65 [Re: Barry_Surrey]  
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EWebster Offline
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Quote:
Do not turn you crank backwards more than is neccessary to find 34 degrees. Turning the crank completely backwards more than this will damage you oil pump. It is a postitive dsplacement pump with a ball chack valve on the output side. Running the pump backwards i.e. turning the crank backwards will cause the pump to suck on this closed check valve and might cause leaks at the seams of the pump which as we all know is BAD in an A65.

Mr. Gumby:
It almost sounds like you know this for a fact, but I believe you are stating an opinion here. The A series oil pump is positive displacement in theory, but is not positive enough to damage itself by turning the engine backwards, by hand anyway.

#443534 - 07/06/12 11:56 pm Re: Fine tuning an A65 [Re: EWebster]  
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Posts: 2,200
Semper Gumby Offline
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Semper Gumby  Offline
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Atlanta, GA USA
OK I agree it's my opinion. And I have seen no BSA prohibitions against it. But it still can't be good for it and these pumps have history of leaking, wet sumping. How many pictures I have seen of pumps leaking at the seams sitting on the bike not running.

So anything that maltreats the pump should be avoided i.e running the pressure side backwards against a check valve.

You are welcome to run you alloy pump backwards as much as you like.

I advise against such abuse.

Last edited by Semper Gumby; 07/07/12 12:38 am.

Gaggle of BSAs
a Honda
an old BMW
and a Montesa
Parking lot Elf in training
#443554 - 07/07/12 3:29 am Re: Fine tuning an A65 [Re: Semper Gumby]  
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EWebster Offline
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Pump Gear End Clearance = X

Pump Gear Radial Clearance = X

Crankshaft RPM 3 RPM Maybe?

3:1 gear reduction to Oil Pump

Oil Pump makes one complete revolution drawing X negative pressure.

I am not seeing the "abuse" potential here.

#443588 - 07/07/12 11:57 am Re: Fine tuning an A65 [Re: EWebster]  
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Semper Gumby Offline
BritBike Forum member
Semper Gumby  Offline
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Posts: 2,200
Atlanta, GA USA
Then we agree to disagree.


Gaggle of BSAs
a Honda
an old BMW
and a Montesa
Parking lot Elf in training

Moderated by  Allan Gill, Jon W. Whitley 


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