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#376643 - 06/01/11 6:22 pm Dont believe it!!! A10 timing side bush failure  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 46
cafe racer rob Offline
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cafe racer rob  Offline
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Posts: 46
UK
I give up.... i completely rebuilt my a10 motor 1300miles ago,reground crank everything the whole lot.My engine shop line bored the crankcases fitted the main brgs for me (they actually made the timing side bush and pressed it into the case for me too also double checked the oil feed hole lined up)i assembled the engine making ABSOLUTELY SURE everything was done properly.Including new oil pump etc i fitted an oil filter conversion ,changed the oil three times now.Anyhow in the last fortnight ive noticed the bike has started to breathe quite heavily from the crank breather,so did the usual,replaced cork washer on breather ,made sure there was no atmospheric pressure getting into the engine(blocked off rocker cover breathers,replaced primary side crank seal etc)in fact any thing that could cause the breather to be "overloaded")Thats when i removed the oil pump to change the gasket and noticed about 5thou play in the mickey soddin mouse timing side bush arghhhhhhhhh.How on earth has this happened? What should i do bite the bullet and go for the SRM conversion? anybody else had this happened? is the srm conversion good/worth the money? im not happy!

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#376660 - 06/01/11 7:51 pm Re: Dont believe it!!! A10 timing side bush failure [Re: cafe racer rob]  
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,812
Alex Offline
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Alex  Offline

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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,812
Seattle
Rob, sorry to hear it failed so soon, particularly in light of the care you took to get it right....but you know that the cause for the failure is that something WASN'T done right or overlooked. I see three potential causes for your premature bearing failure: Improper boring job, wrong bearing material or oil starvation. The only way you're gonna find out is to pull it apart. Did you check the radial play after you had initially assembled it? Do you know what material they used to make your new bearing? Why were you pulling the oil pump to change the gasket? Had it been leaking?


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
#376663 - 06/01/11 8:22 pm Re: Dont believe it!!! A10 timing side bush failure [Re: cafe racer rob]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 46
cafe racer rob Offline
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cafe racer rob  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 46
UK
Hi alex,no the gasket looked ok the only reason i changed it was because it was a 2 minute job and i had a spare gasket in the same kit my cork breather washers came in.Will strip motor at weekend to check the damage....what are your thoughts on the roller brg conversion? ps ive calmed down now!!!!

#376671 - 06/01/11 9:12 pm Re: Dont believe it!!! A10 timing side bush failure [Re: cafe racer rob]  
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,812
Alex Offline
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Alex  Offline

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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,812
Seattle
Mechanical things are notorious for having total disregard for our emotions...aren't they?

I really don't think that the roller conversion is necessary. I've put enough hard miles on standard bearing configurations both on my A10 and unit twins that I just fail to see the need, particularly on a stock displacement bike for the street.

Cheers and good luck. Let us know what you find.


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
#376732 - 06/02/11 7:30 am Re: Dont believe it!!! A10 timing side bush failure [Re: cafe racer rob]  
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 827
wak Offline
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wak  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 827
derby england
sorry to here of your miss fortune,you say they made a timing side bush !!!! so no genuine vp3 composite bearing ? ask yourself this, would you use a bit of old bronze for your big end shells ? no? so why do people try and use it for a main bearing,try and source an original bush they are about and last for 10s of thousands of miles if treated right.

Last edited by wak; 06/02/11 11:31 am.

BSA CYCLONE
BSA METISSE
TRIUMPH TR6C
BSA BUSHMAN
INDIAN WOODSMAN
#376927 - 06/03/11 9:10 am Re: Dont believe it!!! A10 timing side bush failure [Re: cafe racer rob]  
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 827
wak Offline
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wak  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 827
derby england
if anyones interested iv got a new genuine -020" a10 bush


BSA CYCLONE
BSA METISSE
TRIUMPH TR6C
BSA BUSHMAN
INDIAN WOODSMAN
#377083 - 06/03/11 11:17 pm Re: Dont believe it!!! A10 timing side bush failure [Re: cafe racer rob]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
BONZO R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
BONZO R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
Michigan, USA

Rob , are you certain the oil lines were correctly oriented?Most I have seen are marked on the case but it would be an easy mistake.

Wak , I am sorta interested if this bush isn't spoken for .

1968 BSA,I think you are on the right track with your thinking,I definitely prefer to replace the consumable bits , but I would try and use a vandervell bush with the steel case/alloy bush.With these the alloy may be too thin to go from -.040 to -.012 but a -.010 should be easily sized to -.012. Keep in mind that this isn't a simple matter of opening up the bushing, it is critical that this bushing is opened up in alignment with the drive side .This is one of the critical areas on a BSA,one of the things that seperates the men from the boys , a LOTTA people think this is bad design, I like to think it is a great design that a LOTTA people just cant get right . BMW used a very similar design for a long time with stellar results .

FWIW-BONZO

#377104 - 06/04/11 1:22 am Re: Dont believe it!!! A10 timing side bush failure [Re: cafe racer rob]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,871
Mr Mike Offline
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Mr Mike  Offline
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Posts: 3,871
Cape Carteret, NC
Rob, sorry for your troubles. I don't have an A10 but rebuilt my A65 with a homemade timing side bush. Actually I started with the a Vandervell replacement bush but when the machinist bored the bush he mistakenly put too much clearance over my polished crank. I took it back to him, he measured it up and agreed it was his mistake. I did not have another bush. He said he would make me another one and fit it to the vandrevell steel sleve. He turned it out of a piece of bar stock. It was some bronze/brass alloy....considerably harder thant the soft metal of a Vandervell. He did not know the specification for the material but said that he had been using it for one-of-a-kind main bearings in all kinds of motors for many years. I took him at his word. He made the bush, pegged it so it wouldn't spin, and align bored to a mirror finish to the specified .0015" clearance. It has run great for me for about 5 years or more. I only have about 10,000 miles on it but it runs good and the oil pressure remains good. If I had had another bush or knew where to find one I probably would of gone with the Vandervell, but the machinest was confident he could make it as "good as new"...and I guess he did. He did not charge me for making the bearing...just the original cost of the align bore...$200. I have brought this guy other machine work and it all has been excellent.

Mr Mike

#377167 - 06/04/11 4:17 pm Re: Dont believe it!!! A10 timing side bush failure [Re: cafe racer rob]  
Joined: Sep 2004
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EWebster Offline
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Posts: 269
Yes, the original mat'l is VP-23 which is cast onto a steel strip which is then rolled, pressed and pinned into ANOTHER steel outer shell...not some brass bush pressed into a steel shell or some solid brass thing. There are 3 very different choices and BSA went with the most durable and expensive choice. The original type can be run at a tighter clearance without seizure unlike the other two that must have at least a half thou additional cllearance.... which has a direct impact on oil pressure. You cannot, or would you want to, bore or ream the original type since the functional bearing layer is quite thin.

#377170 - 06/04/11 4:29 pm Re: Dont believe it!!! A10 timing side bush failure [Re: cafe racer rob]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,965
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content


Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,965
Boston, Massachusetts
Quote:
You cannot, or would you want to, bore or ream the original type since the functional bearing layer is quite thin.


Then what was the alignment jig, and reamer, supplied by BSA to specialists to do this job used for?


#377223 - 06/04/11 10:25 pm Re: Dont believe it!!! A10 timing side bush failure [Re: John Healy]  
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EWebster Offline
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EWebster  Offline
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Good question. The 61-3281 jig was used for the earlier white metalled bush #67-0648 which was replaced by the 67-0790 VP-23 type around 1957.

The VP23 material is copper/lead on steel

#377294 - 06/05/11 12:50 pm Re: Dont believe it!!! A10 timing side bush failure [Re: cafe racer rob]  
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Mr Mike Offline
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Mr Mike  Offline
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Cape Carteret, NC
Back in the day, plain bearings were very soft to provide "embedability". Small metal particles will actually embed in the soft bearing material rather than damage the much harder and more expensive crank. Back then most engines had no filtering system or a marginal one at best. BSA was in that category. I put a decent filtering system on my bike so I felt the harder alloy that I used for the bearing would probably work OK. My machinist was confident. If I was doing it all over again I would nitride the crank in the process. As far as reducing the bearing clearance, I checked the "Machinery Handbook" and .0015" is about right for a 1.5 inch journal. I discussed this with my machinist who has done thousands of cranks on racing motors as well as farm machinery, and he was not compfortable with clearance less than .0015". We talked about going down to .0012", but he talked me out of it. Interesting to note is the BSA shop manual does not specify this clearance.

Mr Mike

#377338 - 06/05/11 7:46 pm Re: Dont believe it!!! A10 timing side bush failure [Re: cafe racer rob]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,851
dave - NV Online content
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dave - NV  Online Content
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Elko, Nevada USA
Mr Mike's mentioning 'softer' bearing material and nitriding cranks brings to mind something a gent shared with us on his web page some years ago. His name escapes me ... grrr.

He was racing BSA twins on the national dirt track circuit during The Era. His method to increase the RH main bearing life on his race engines was quite elegant seems to me. He had the crank jounal ground down and pressed on a Timken needle bearing inner race. The now hard steel crank journal would no longer be 'eaten' by the particles imbedded in the softer bearing shell.

It seems Timken sells a large selection of races of this type to allow running a needle bearing on a mild steel shaft in a variety of equipment.


dave - NV
#377479 - 06/06/11 4:06 pm Re: Dont believe it!!! A10 timing side bush failure [Re: cafe racer rob]  
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EWebster Offline
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#377499 - 06/06/11 6:14 pm Re: Dont believe it!!! A10 timing side bush failure [Re: EWebster]  
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Posts: 7,812
Alex Offline
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Alex  Offline

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Seattle
I have not seen an A10 Bearing with a dowel pin.

The bearing material really only matters a) during startup and b) if there is contamination in the oil. While running, there is no contact between the bearing and the journal. If particulate matter gets into the bearing, the the bearing and journal will be abraded and will wear more rapidly unless the bearing material is so soft as to just embed the particles as Mr. Mike sez. With clean oil, bronze bearings will last a long time, but they should be lead bronze so that during startup, when there is little or no oil supplied, there is a level of self-lubrication at the interface between bearing and journal. Brass is no good at all since it will gall and deposit material on the journal. I have heard of but not actually seen any aftermarket solid bearings made of brass.

Myself, I prefer to re-bush the original steel bearing housing with SAE 660 lead bronze and dowel the bearing sleeve in place. Finally, align-hone the bearing in place to the drive-side bearing. Honing leaves a finish with good friction properties for startup when there is contact.


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
#377521 - 06/06/11 9:31 pm Re: Dont believe it!!! A10 timing side bush failure [Re: EWebster]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,429
Jim Hultman Offline
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Jim Hultman  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,429
Minnesota, US
Originally Posted By: EWebster
Are you thinking of this page Dave?

Ole's web page

Does anyone know who this Ole guy is? I found this site a couple years ago and I've sent him emails about the mag he says he has for sale but never got a reply. I could sure use some of the parts he says he's selling!

Any ideas of who he is and how to reach him?

(Sorry for the thread hijack)

#377527 - 06/06/11 10:28 pm Re: Dont believe it!!! A10 timing side bush failure [Re: cafe racer rob]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 871
trevinoz Online content
BritBike Forum member
trevinoz  Online Content
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 871
newcastle australia
Alex,
The A10 bush received the dowel when the pressed-in bearing was introduced.
The original white metal bearings didn't have the dowel for an obvious reason.
Trev.

#377540 - 06/06/11 11:56 pm Re: Dont believe it!!! A10 timing side bush failure [Re: cafe racer rob]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,851
dave - NV Online content
BritBike Forum member
dave - NV  Online Content
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Joined: Aug 2001
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Elko, Nevada USA
Webster & Hultman .. Thanks for the refresh on Ole's web page address. I notice with a reread that his hardened steel crank journal 'sleeve' was custom made. But,'I've read somewhere' (eek)using a Timken race also works. hmmm

I notice on his 'BSA parts history' more info on crank bushings.

ya'all have fun ... keep those pesky Triumph riders behind you!


dave - NV
#377566 - 06/07/11 2:22 am Re: Dont believe it!!! A10 timing side bush failure [Re: Jim Hultman]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,871
Mr Mike Offline
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Mr Mike  Offline
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Cape Carteret, NC
Jim,
He ocassionally posts. I have viewed his site many times and exchanged e-mails once or twice.

Alex,I keep my A65 at about 1300-1500 rpms for idle. I hope I have enoungh presure to keep the crank afloat.

Mr Mike


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