BritBike Forum logo
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
  JWood Auction  
Home | Sponsors, Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons, "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Photo posting tutorial

Member Spotlight
DeejayP999
DeejayP999
London, England
Posts: 26
Joined: April 2003
Show All Member Profiles 
Shout Box
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Random Gallery photo
Who's Online Now
202 registered members (57nortonmodel77), 1,707 guests, and 529 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Brian Ellery, Jon Andrews, Berni Ernst, johnguppy, michael morgan
9955 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
btour 185
koan58 98
Stuart 87
NickL 59
Popular Topics(Views)
435,973 mail-order LSR
Forum Statistics
Forums33
Topics65,261
Posts631,968
Members9,955
Most Online3,995
Feb 13th, 2017
Like BritBike.com on Facebook

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#350885 - 01/01/11 11:32 pm Energy Transfer and lights  
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 33
amx-bsa Offline
BritBike Forum member
amx-bsa  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 33
MA
I started going through the lighting on my newly acquired '67 hornet. The only light that works right now is the rear Stoplight connected to the rear brake switch. Cool I think. However when I opened up the light fixture to look at the taillight I found that both bulbs are 12 volt.

I thought that lighting on Energy Transfer systems are 6 volt?
The light works so far, is it going to fail because of the wrong voltage?
The stoplight seems to be hooked up parallel to the ignition. So I'm thinking that a bulb failure could turn into a Ignition problem.
The bike was changed to later model Jap AC coils. But it look like it has the stock 5 wire alternator.
Any ideas?


'67 Bsa Hornet Rolling Basket case
Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!
Membership Type! Free
Member
Premium
Member
Premium Life
Member
Vendor
Member
Site
Sponsor
Recognition No Premium Member Premium Life member (5 years) Vendor Member Site Sponsor Membership
Post commercial threads No No No Yes Yes
Custom title No Yes Yes Yes Yes
Upload avatar & photos No Yes Yes Yes Yes
Link avatar & photos Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Private Message Storage: 10 100 100 100 100
Length of signatures 255 600 600 600 600
Removes this very advert island between post 1&2 No Yes Yes Yes Yes
Price Free $12.90/year $105.00 No End
$55.00/5 years
$210.00/year
($17.50/month)
Email
Click on button >>
  Premium Member Premium Life member Vendor Member Site Sponsor Membership
#350897 - 01/02/11 12:41 am Re: Energy Transfer and lights [Re: amx-bsa]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
BONZO R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
BONZO R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
Michigan, USA
lots of et stuff on here lately .I'd be interested to see your wiring diagram , I am not very familiar with these but I thought the ignition and lighting were powered by their own seperate stator coils? I can't see how they would be wired in paralel.Being that the bike is an et powered machine I have to "assume" there is no battery power for the lighting so you should be able to determine if the ignition will be affected by the tail light by simply removing it while running.as far as the 12 volt bulbs , I have heard the 6 volt bulbs tend to blow out ,maybe the 12 v bulbs were the po's "fix", I would look into somesort of surge suppressor and use the 6 v .

More info would be great. I have long wanted to try and run an ET system , tried for years to scrounge up the parts and I was only lacking the alternator rotor and keying disc when I gave up on the idea . I suppose they are great for an original bike but by all accounts a big hassle for a regularly ridden machine (I guess that's why I wanted one , I hate to dismiss something like that as junk when I haven't tried it)

FWIW-BONZO

#350939 - 01/02/11 5:01 am Re: Energy Transfer and lights [Re: amx-bsa]  
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,227
leon bee Offline
BritBike Forum member
leon bee  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,227
arkansas
I don't understand the bit about parallel wiring yet. Have you found an ET diagram to look at? My experience has been to find 12 volt lamps in these things, I figured the vibration knocked out a hot 6 volt filament too easily. I have one ET bike, 67 Hornet, which was in nice original shape when I got it but hadn't run for many years. When I got her going, discovered 12 volt lamps front and rear. Got a new 6 volt tail at NAPA and put it in.......it burned out the very first time I revved it. Front is a 12 volt sealed beam in a Bates, I don't want to risk trying a 6 volt. Lights aren't real bright, good enough for Arkansas.

#350944 - 01/02/11 6:41 am Re: Energy Transfer and lights [Re: amx-bsa]  
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,860
DavidP Offline
BritBike Forum member
DavidP  Offline

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,860
Gnashville
Never had the Lucas ET system. However, I bet it's very much like the system on a 66 Ducati 250 I once owned.
Two coils, one for ignition, one for lights. However, the brake light was wired to the ignition coil in such a way that if the lamp was bad the bike quit. There was a bypass switch on the tailight housing so you could keep riding.
Darn clever, those Italians. laughing


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
#350961 - 01/02/11 1:30 pm Re: Energy Transfer and lights [Re: amx-bsa]  
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,812
Alex Online content
BritBike Forum member
Alex  Online Content

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,812
Seattle
It all depends on how your bike was wired for lights. They did not originally come with lighting, so there's no way for any of us to know how the lights were wired. The "proper" way for the dealers to do it back in the day was with so-called "AC" lighting. This setup uses no regulation or rectifier. As such, to keep the stop lamp from blowing when there is no load from a headlamp, it is wired through half of the ignition coils (brown wire). This may answer your question about the "parallel" wiring. And no, a bulb failure (blown filament) will not cause ignition failure. A short in the brake light circuit will, though. The rest of the lighting system is completely independent using its own coils (Brown/blue wire, red to ground). So, if your brake light is working and the bike runs, that circuit is probably OK. So, it sounds like you need to check that the brown/blue wire has AC voltage to ground when the bike is running and then check the wiring of the headlamp and taillamp.

Cheers


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
#351002 - 01/02/11 4:46 pm Re: Energy Transfer and lights [Re: amx-bsa]  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,708
SBoyd Offline
BritBike Forum member
SBoyd  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,708
Virginia, USA
Here is a diagram, scroll to bottom

http://gabma.us/elec/lucas_diagrams.pdf

They did come originally with six-volt bulbs.
The headlamp was a 25/25W 6 volt.
The tail lamp also 6 volt, don't remember watts.

12 volt lamps will also work. Unregulated, the voltage simply rises, but a total of about 35 watts is all that's available.
The tail lamp and the headlamp must be same voltage.

The brake light filament, as you can see, is powered by the center-tap of the four ignition cols.

The two lighting coils are in series and can only provide about 35 watts. If the headlamp burns out, the voltage rises and immediately burns out the tail lamp.

I had a brand new 1966 TR6C which I rode to work occaisionaly, night shift. I wouldn't do that in today's traffic or high speed night riding. Your lighting system is just enough for street-legal daytime riding and to get you home if necessary.
Otherwise, I think a proper ET system is a joy and you can keep a raincoat where the battery would be.

>>sb


Stop the insanity.
#351005 - 01/02/11 5:01 pm Re: Energy Transfer and lights [Re: amx-bsa]  
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 269
EWebster Offline
BritBike Forum member
EWebster  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 269
BSA issued a similar bulletin to this:

ET Info

#351008 - 01/02/11 5:12 pm Re: Energy Transfer and lights [Re: Alex]  
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 33
amx-bsa Offline
BritBike Forum member
amx-bsa  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 33
MA
Your right the stoplight is wired with the ignition. The other lighting runs on separate Alternator windings. Where the whole thing is AC the idea of voltage probable isn't an issue. The generator output voltage is dependent on RPMs and power demand. So my guess is that it will work with 12 volt bulbs. The lights will be dimmer due to higher resistance.
The bike didn't come from the factory with lights. Somebody added them later. (looked like they were removed then reinstalled a couple of times).
The alternator has six windings, 4 for the ignition and 2 for lights etc. I don't know if there will be enough power to run it all at 12 volts.
I'll just have to wire it up and see.

Has anybody heard of putting 12 volt bulbs in 6 volt systems to avoid bob burnout from unregulated AC power?
Can I hook up to DC power ( a battery) in the shop to test the wiring with out damaging anything?
Starting the bike up to test the lights a couple of dozen times in the basement will drive the wife nuts.


'67 Bsa Hornet Rolling Basket case
#351012 - 01/02/11 5:22 pm Re: Energy Transfer and lights [Re: SBoyd]  
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 33
amx-bsa Offline
BritBike Forum member
amx-bsa  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 33
MA
Sorry SB, I was writing my post on my wife's phone (PITA). And I didn't read your post. It confirmed my thinking on the Energy Transfer system.

Thanks


'67 Bsa Hornet Rolling Basket case
#351028 - 01/02/11 6:56 pm Re: Energy Transfer and lights [Re: amx-bsa]  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,316
Gary E Offline
BritBike Forum member
Gary E  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,316
Medford, Oregon
This is the ET wiring diagram from the factory workshop manual. You might check that your Hornet is wired as such.



1967 BSA Wasp
1967 BSA Hornet (West Coast Model)
1967 BSA Hornet (East Coast Model)
1968 BSA Firebird Scrambler
1968 BSA Spitfire Mark IV
#351031 - 01/02/11 7:03 pm Re: Energy Transfer and lights [Re: amx-bsa]  
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,227
leon bee Offline
BritBike Forum member
leon bee  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,227
arkansas
This is very interesting. I thought I knew about all there was about this ET, but I sure never paid that much attention to lights. When I burned out a 6v tail bulb, may not have even had the headlight connected. I stick with my opinion that the 12 volt is bright enough, including the brakelight, but have now realized I probably have never ridden that bike after dark.

External to the 5 wire alternator, there was never any intended interface between lights and ignition?

#351045 - 01/02/11 8:54 pm Re: Energy Transfer and lights [Re: leon bee]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
BONZO R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
BONZO R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
Michigan, USA
EWebster , Thanks for posting that factory sheet , I have never seen the 'official' description but that is just how it was explained to me when I was curious about how the et worked . the oversimplified version I got when I boiled it down was that it's just a magneto desgned with discreet components placed all over the bike, with a crappy advance curve .keeping it that simple made it easy to get my head around them.

Gary, that is the same diagram I have been looking at , I see the lighting coils on the alternator stator , I "thought" that would include the stop light ??? I guess if I was gonna install a brake light (would this bike have had one from the factory?) I would want to know that it was working any time the bike was running and being AC and not wanting to adversely affect the tuning too much , I think I would wire it to interrupt the ground path between the ignition coils and chassis ground . this way the engine would stall if the bulb blew ???? Or not??

Just to play devils advocate,and this is how I tend to blow up a lotta perfectly good parts ,if one were to use this bike as a rider where the only possible advantage of the et(weight saving) isn't an issue why wouldn't you simply install a 4 way bridge rectifier and solid state regulator with small battery to give a nicely flat and regulated DC flow to keep the bulbs bright and prevent blowing them out . I'm not sure what DC level you might see so I would wanna take some readings , without knowing you might cook a battery ,might be smooth enough output to go batteryless (since you don't rely on it for ignition)and get a nice bright 12 volt bulb??If it were me I would have to try it just to know .bulbs don't care if you are sending it ac or dc trons but they are sensitive to spikes and surges .

FWIW-BONZO

#351075 - 01/02/11 11:10 pm Re: Energy Transfer and lights [Re: BONZO R.I.P.]  
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 269
EWebster Offline
BritBike Forum member
EWebster  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 269
You are welcome. Looking at Gary's diagram, can you see how maybe the contact breakers aren't even very useful much above starting and idle RPM? This is why the 6CA wouldn't help a lot in the ET system

Lucas offered a clipper diode for the really chronic bulb-blowers once the wattage recommendations were adhered to.

#351080 - 01/02/11 11:45 pm Re: Energy Transfer and lights [Re: amx-bsa]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,964
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content


Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,964
Boston, Massachusetts
Quote:
You are welcome. Looking at Gary's diagram, can you see how maybe the contact breakers aren't even very useful much above starting and idle RPM?


???????????? Whatcha mean by that?


#351081 - 01/02/11 11:56 pm Re: Energy Transfer and lights [Re: amx-bsa]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
BONZO R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
BONZO R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
Michigan, USA
EWebster , this can get as deep as you wanna go or as simple as a discreet magneto . I know there is a lotta confusion about ac reactive/inductive loads but if you look at the contact breakers themselves , and I am no engineer, but these seem to be used as simple signals for the coils to fire a spark when the points close , I don't see any capacitance or Bandpass filter circuit to regulate this to certain RPM??? No specs that I have seen but I would be very interested in hearing any thoughts ... like I say , this is all new to me , just theory and I would love to get arms deep in one of these .

FWIW-BONZO

#351083 - 01/03/11 12:04 am Re: Energy Transfer and lights [Re: amx-bsa]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
BONZO R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
BONZO R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,348
Michigan, USA
OOPS.. Mr. healey , Didn't menan to step in , just saw the first reply..

BTW , What is the zinc thing about ?? I never looked but I use assembly lube but never noted the contents , is this a britbike thing I should know about?I have been using the permatex product I bought years ago and figured I was OK??

FWIW-BONZO

#351091 - 01/03/11 1:30 am Re: Energy Transfer and lights [Re: Gary E]  
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 33
amx-bsa Offline
BritBike Forum member
amx-bsa  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 33
MA
Gary,
My ignition and stoplight wiring are are set up exactly like the factory diagram you posted. The brown wire (N) is attached to the stoplight switch at the rear brake pedal. The bulb is 12 volt, but it seems to work ok. The power supplied to the brown wire is supplied by the 4 sets of windings that supply the coils.

The rest of the wiring (headlight, tailight, horn if I can find one) are curently not attached. In fact they are a bloody mess. I'm assuming that they are attached to the brown/white (NW) wire attached to the other two alternator windings. The bulbs that I found in these fixtures are also 12 volts. Although I have my doubts that there will be enough power to light the headlight and tailight.

I wonder if there would be enough juice to charge a small battery from those two windings? I doubt it because it would have to be regulated a a high enough voltage to keep the alternator from motorizing.


'67 Bsa Hornet Rolling Basket case
#351104 - 01/03/11 3:07 am Re: Energy Transfer and lights [Re: amx-bsa]  
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,227
leon bee Offline
BritBike Forum member
leon bee  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,227
arkansas
Why do you doubt there would be enough juice to light the 12v lights? That is, why would you just ignore someone, (me), saying it works pretty well. And that a couple other ET bikes I dragged home also had 12v lamps front and rear. Just curious.

#351107 - 01/03/11 3:26 am Re: Energy Transfer and lights [Re: amx-bsa]  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,708
SBoyd Offline
BritBike Forum member
SBoyd  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,708
Virginia, USA
""The rest of the wiring (headlight, tailight, horn if I can find one) are curently not attached. In fact they are a bloody mess. I'm assuming that they are attached to the brown/white (NW) wire attached to the other two alternator windings. The bulbs that I found in these fixtures are also 12 volts. Although I have my doubts that there will be enough power to light the headlight and tailight."" ??? AMX

AMX Did you not see the schematic that I posted (GABMA link)?
That's the one that works. There is 35 watts available for lighting at average revs. That's headlight and tail light, nothing else. They dim when you press the horn.
That's the one that came on ET bikes with AC lighting.
Why try to overthink it??
Lucas "engineers" and "scientists" figured out how to rob power from the alternator-ignition-coils center-tap for the brake light because there is NONE to spare from the lighting coils.
It WORKS.
What's the problem here??




Stop the insanity.
#351113 - 01/03/11 4:15 am Re: Energy Transfer and lights [Re: amx-bsa]  
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,227
leon bee Offline
BritBike Forum member
leon bee  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,227
arkansas
Wait a minute, wait a minute. Horn on a 67 Hornet? Jeeze.......

#351119 - 01/03/11 5:17 am Re: Energy Transfer and lights [Re: amx-bsa]  
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,860
DavidP Offline
BritBike Forum member
DavidP  Offline

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,860
Gnashville
Bonzo,
From what I read in the linked service bulletin, the ET coils wouldn't tolerate the current of a DC system for long.
However, one should be able to rectify/regulate only the output of the lighting coils.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
#351127 - 01/03/11 9:19 am Re: Energy Transfer and lights [Re: leon bee]  
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 33
amx-bsa Offline
BritBike Forum member
amx-bsa  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 33
MA
Sorry,
I'm not disagreeing with you guys, and I realize that system worked as designed by Lucas. Looking back at my posts I realized that I give you guys all the info. The lighting on the bike is not the factory lighting kit. It's more of a collection of junk someone stuck on to try and pass an inspection. The head light is a big old honking car headlight (45-50 watts alone).

So when I say I doubt that I'll work, that what I'm thinking about. I think i'm going to have to get rid of this stuff and get some proper gear.
Sorry about that.
When I started this topic I was trying to get some info and shared experience on ET wiring. Which I did thanks to you guys.

I probably should have listed off the equipment on the bike. I'm still wondering if this stuff was disconnected for a reason? Did this collection of stuff even work? Or was it just cobbled together to look somewhat street legal.

Sorry about the confusion, and thanks again.

I've got a better understanding of ET systems and a good idea how I'm going to go from here. I'm going to keep the head tailight and horn the same voltage (12v). But repace them with ones with more reasonable demands. Hook it up and see what happens.


'67 Bsa Hornet Rolling Basket case
#351128 - 01/03/11 9:42 am Re: Energy Transfer and lights [Re: amx-bsa]  
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,227
leon bee Offline
BritBike Forum member
leon bee  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,227
arkansas
The most common headlight installed on them was a Griffin, (from BSA dealers I think) or a Bates aftermarket. The Griffin had a bulb and most all the Bates had sealed beams. Asian copies of the Bates lights are readily available. These are the 5 1/2" or 5 1/4" size, whichever it was. If doing 12 volts, Wagner makes an inexpensive sealed beam which fits right in. My bikes always shake these apart. But Wagner also does another one, different part number which is much tougher. The first couple I bought said "motorcycle" on them. Last one I got was same part number, but didn't say motorcycle anymore. These ones are 35 watt, and I haven't blown one out yet. From NAPA, I have numbers out at my shop. I never checked on 6 volters, maybe I will.

I've found it interesting that while starting my ET Hornet, (an easy starting bike), it doesn't care a bit whether or not the lights are switched on while kicking her over.

#351177 - 01/03/11 4:08 pm Re: Energy Transfer and lights [Re: amx-bsa]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,964
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content


Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,964
Boston, Massachusetts
Quote:
I've found it interesting that while starting my ET Hornet, (an easy starting bike), it doesn't care a bit whether or not the lights are switched on while kicking her over.


That should be evident from both the internal wiring diagram of the 47188 and 47197 stator. Both use separate windings for lights and ignition. So it doesn't surprise me that the lights being on has any effect on starting.

The 47197 was an improvement over the 47188. On the 47188 the ignition used 4 of the coils with the brake light coming off the ignition windings. Two coils were used for the lights. On the 47197 only three windings were used for the ignition and three for the lights giving more output to the lighting circuit. The brake light was moved to the lighting coils.

It is never wise with an ET system to change from one beam to another at high rpm. Proper selection of bulbs is important. 166 6v 24/24 and 384 6v 18/6. While it isn't practical to use a 6 volt Zener with a battery system, you could use on on the lighting circuit of an ET stator.

Good grounds must be established and maintained. The head lamp needs its own ground wire that is directly connected to the frame preferably at the same point you ground the stator. Never rely on the head neck bearings to establish head light ground.

Lights were never a "long suit" on an ET ignition, but if set-up properly performance should not suffer. I must admit, the loss of night time vision as I get older can be a factor we all will eventually have to consider. It's not that the light system is putting out less light.

All of the Triumph factory road race 500's that won Daytona used this type of ignition. Most of these bikes were faster than any 500 running in AHRMA today with expensive modern ignitions.

-The timing of the point opening must be coordinated to the alternator rotor!!!!!!!!
-Timing is critical to satisfactory performance.
-The alternator magnets must be at full strength - (Joe Hunt magnetos can re- magnetize the rotor.)
-The points must be in good condition. High resistance points just won't allow the unit to work properly. The stator must have a good ground circuit through the points when they are both closed (which is most of the time).

These types of ignitions were common on a lot of Japanese bikes. I mention this because a lot of the original ET coils are missing or damaged and original Lucas ones are expensive.


#351219 - 01/03/11 7:58 pm Re: Energy Transfer and lights [Re: amx-bsa]  
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,227
leon bee Offline
BritBike Forum member
leon bee  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,227
arkansas
"Should be evident from studying the diagrams". Indeed it is. At the time, I was impressed to discover this and figure it out in my own head. Electricity is magic,no?

I like these discussions because back when I first came around nearly everyone here agreed ET wasn't worth a damn and never had been. I say nearly cause there were a few exceptions. I saved all the parts off my first Hornet and might try putting it back to ET. My 67 with ET starts and runs great.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Allan Gill, Jon W. Whitley 


Home | Sponsors | Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons | "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.143s Queries: 16 (0.006s) Memory: 1.0069 MB (Peak: 1.3706 MB) Zlib disabled. Server Time: 2017-11-19 21:51:11 UTC