BritBike Forum

1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD

Posted By: sawtooth

1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/28/08 11:49 pm

i have carbon plug fouling - the fouling is flat black, not slick to the touch - its chalky/dry

both plugs are fouling*
(i thought i had turned the corner but after adjust the timing i went back to foul city)

ok here is the current setup:

needle (NEW) 2c3

needle clips (NEW) set in the upper most notch (lean)

needle jet (NEW) 105

main jet (NEW) 210

pilot jet 25

enrichers (NEW) seat properly - did the push test - no change

slides (NEW) 3.5

float/needle - functioning correctly - level is correct

throttle cables (NEW) - set with proper amount of play etc

plugs (NEW) NGK B6ES (gap .025) getting good visible spark

coil (NEW) Harley 3ohm (when i purchased the bike it had an accel super coil - Harley - i have no idea if was functioning properly put since i was in process of eliminating possible issues i decided to replace it - it was not new)

plug wires (NEW) metallic

battery- load tested etc - passed, charging/holding charge - its not new but according to the tests is functional

charging system - checked - charging - correct voltage

ignition - stock electronic - not BOYER

if i have forgotten anything please read my other threads

after i installed the new carb parts - i had the local expert over for a house call - he set up the carb screws, sync'd the carbs, checked the valves etc

the right carb functioned perfectly ie the pilot air screw was almost set dead to spec and the plug read perfect

but the left side was another story there was a leak at the bowl gasket (issue has been resolved) and plug fouling - CARBON FOULING

the fouling was almost immediate - from idle thru out the range it would foul and be useless within 5 minutes of ride time

so before i switched the carbs from left to right i decided that i would check the timing

and the timing was off!!!!!!

i adjusted it at 3,600 RPM - set and secured

installed fresh plugs - started first kick and took it for a test ride around the block

from idle to quarter throttle all systems go

anything above approx quarter throttle to full was a NIGHTMARE

the bike ran rough and sporadic, detonation deteriorated, bogged, blat, burp, backed off the throttle and all systems returned to normal...back on the throttle = nightmare

brought the turd home, pulled the plugs and they were both carbon fouled!!

did i just take a step backwards...is this bike cursed..am i cursed??? i know i am broke!!

should i have just bought new JRC carbs!

sigh...HELP!!

mr. tooth
Posted By: az-idea

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/29/08 12:58 am

Well...sounds like really healthy rings\bore fit..ports to carb match\et cet..and major pull on the #25 pilot=too rich..get you some#20,and #15 and see which gives you the Tan plugs...
Posted By: highway

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/29/08 1:25 am

I would think ..... IF.. the local expert is the person you bought the carb parts from...AND is the one who rebuilt the top end ...And is an expert (in the opinion of other experts) I feel if you approach him he would offer to sort it out at little or no cost..a customer who pays and pays and pays and is rewarded with a "TURD" does not reflect well on his reputation, or the viability of British bikes as reliable transportation.
Note the differences between triumphmike's jetting and yours.
In what position in the carb is your pilot jet and undrilled plug situated??
Rick
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/29/08 1:58 am

i bought the carb parts on-line and installed them myself

and yes he and the crew did the top end....they have the experience

i am confident they did the job right .without them this project would have been a complete lose... BUT they are not in the business of restorations and focus on early model - engine overhauls and chops....and if it don't work - replace it.

the pilot jet is in the top of the bowl. i sprayed it with carb cleaner, removed, inspected and made sure it was seated correctly
Posted By: saxon7

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/29/08 2:04 am

What sort of pipes are you running? I would think the standard size main jets should be 200 and 210 a bit rich if you are running stock mufflers. 210 is for megaphones.

Also, check to see if your chokes are seating properly.
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/29/08 2:16 am

You numbers are fine. It should run. They will idle with a #15,#20 or #25 idle jet.
220 may be large but you have not reached WOT yet to worry about it. I run a 2C3 needle and it's fine. So...
The enrichening rods on the MKIIs came in two sizes.
The early ones had a shorter brass housing at the bottom holding the rubber seal. The later ones came with a longer housing. Compare the old ones to the new ones. You can push down all you want but the longer ones don't seal the fuel port AND they don't, by virtue of size, seal the side port in the body. This is because they are too big to fit in the recess that you can't see.This might explain the problem.
----
And now for a long shot. This happened to someone I know who consulted an "expert". Are the slides installed upside down? It has happened.
HTH
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/29/08 2:27 am

no mufflers...1.75" open pipes

air filters are ok
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/29/08 2:32 am

oh and the slides are installed right side up.. : ))
Posted By: Steve Erickson

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/29/08 2:34 am

No mufflers, 1 3/4" pipes...might suspect your neighbor sugaring your gas tank.
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/29/08 4:01 am

Saw,
Mine:
79 T40D
#15 idle jets
#35 choke jets
3 1/2 slides
2C3 needles mid position
106 needle jets
220 mains
floats .020' to .030" below bowel top
1 3/4 " TT pipes w/ 6" baffles
UNI foam filters
---
I am scratching my head on this one. You are too near my settings. I am back to enrichening rods
or bad needles/seats in bowl. I'll scratch some more.
HTH


HTH
Posted By: Nick

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/29/08 4:03 am

Try removing the air cleaners.

If that don't do it, just keep leaning out the jetting.
Posted By: Nick

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/29/08 4:04 am

Remember, though, whenever you're sure it's the carbs, it's usually the ignition.
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/29/08 4:15 am

Nick writes

Quote:
Remember, though, whenever you're sure it's the carbs, it's usually the ignition.
Good point. Do you have new condensors?
Posted By: Blapper

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/29/08 6:23 am

Swap the carbs over temporarily to be certain it is the carb.

Blapper redwine
Posted By: JTsmks

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/29/08 12:16 pm

My 79 T140D would CONSTANTLY carbon foul my plugs for some ten odd years till I recently switched to Champion N5Cs and copper plug wires, no more problems since the switch. Seemed too simple a fix but it did the trick.
Posted By: JTsmks

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/29/08 12:17 pm

May seem over simple too but make sure your coils are 6 volt.
Posted By: JubeePrince

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/29/08 1:26 pm

Rip-Cut Bicuspid -

I have seen two or three people suggest that you swap out the carbs and see if the problem follows....I don't see where you have done this....has this been done yet and if so, what are the results? You would be able to tell alot from this simple task.....

Is a Harley 3ohm coil correct for the stock points set-up? (I have no idea, myself.) What kind of readings are you getting from the coils?

"99% of carburettor problems are electrical in nature" unknown

HTH,

Steve
Posted By: JubeePrince

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/29/08 1:28 pm

Quote:
Originally posted by JTsmks:
May seem over simple too but make sure your coils are 6 volt.
JT - He's running points....coil(s) should be 12V
Posted By: JTsmks

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/29/08 2:08 pm

er, JB, he's running a 1979 Bonnie to the best of my understanding...stock electronic not "Boyer".... would more then likely mean stock Lucas Rita electronic ignition not points. I may have missed something in the other threads but a 79 didn't run points ignition to the best of my knowledge unless he's converted back to points. If points are the case then make sure your running a 12 volt coils. If you are indeed running the stock Lucas/Rita electronic ignition appropriate for the 79 I'd ditch the "Harley" coil in favor a of two 6 volt units.
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/29/08 2:16 pm

my ignition system consists of a coil, amplifier (original to the bike) and reluctor...the local paid experts insist i buy a boyer (don't test it-replace it) but they could be right

i think 5ohm coil is for pints ignition

i have not switched the carbs left to right because after i adjusted the timing both plugs were fouling again

i've had the most luck with autolite plugs

so todays tasks are as follows

1. install the autolite 405's and pull the air cleaners - check the voltage from the coil (again) - test ride

2. take a closer look at that old amplifier

3. beg the wife for another $150 from the family budget to buy a boyer

impacted wisdom
Posted By: JTsmks

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/29/08 4:17 pm

Sawtooth, my T140D has the original electronic igniton and I would never swap it out for a "Boyer" unless it was broken. I did have a 68 BSA Thunderbolt the PO added a boyer to but left the stock 12volt coils in place and that thing would constantly foul plugs till the error was discovered and two 6 volts were added. My understanding is the Harley coil is a 12volt unit. I would suggest you move back to two 6 volt coils. All only IMHO.
Posted By: highway

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/29/08 5:08 pm

I've never been a fan of Rita ignitions. A weak point is the insulator sleeves and washers where the four wires connect on the stator plate. wire eyelets corode and cause problems,
I would think it is running so bad now that an ignition problem would show up with a spark tester on the plug wire. It is a plastic sleeve with one end attaching to the plug and one to the s/p wire. The ends are turned in or out to adjust the gap the spark will have to jump inside the sleeve. Start with the gap about 40 thou and see if spark is constant as you rev it, then open it up to 80 thou and try again, If there is an ignition breakdown you should see the spark stuttering or stopping. These tools are cheap and useful addition to your toolbox.
Electrical components are never or very rarely sold on a, buy it, try it, return it,for refund if it does't cure the problem basis. If a paid mechanic determines an electrical part is faulty, the customer shouldn't be on the hook for it and the non faulty part reinstalled. Fortunately for brit bike mechanics, boyers are a universal fit unlike the computors and ignition boxes on new bikes that can cost many times the price of a Boyer. Rick
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/29/08 5:19 pm

morning update: installed an old trusty set of autolite 405's.

and kicked the bike over...first kick

and its threatening rain so i figured i would skip testing the coil and the inspecting the amp and go for a quick test ride

got out the backroads and gave it some gas (ie opened the throttle up to 1/4+) and the turd choked, ran rough, miss fired aka nightmare

i backed off the throttle and the turd ran normal

decided to try it again (open it up) and it got a little better!

did the same thing..back off and then up...and again better! no sporadic firing...no pain

long story short...after a little while i could run thru the gears under heavy acceleration to wot without issue

(did however notice a audible whine coming from the head??)

drove around for approx. 15-20 minutes and brought the tud back to toliet

pulled both plugs and there was still some carbon but the insulators were off white and clean (which was better than when they started..despite my cleaning efforts the old 405's were plenty black)

i know i am not out of the woods...but at l;eat there is hope

the only thing i did this a.m. is go back to the 405"s

_

lets talk about that harley coil...using my voltage testor what sort ofn reading should i be getting from each poll?? 6v's??? or 12v?? I am getting confused..i am reading too much : (
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/29/08 9:58 pm

OK, I'm confused. The 79 should have a Rita ignition. But I thought you said it had points?
Posted By: highway

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/29/08 10:47 pm

The last bout of missing was due to fouled plug /plugs. Electricity will take the easiest route to ground, that being the spark will travel to ground on the carbon coating the plug rather than the harder task of jumping the air gap to ground electrode creating spark.
Spark plugs are cleaned of carbon while running the same way a self cleaning oven cleans its self,, by getting hot enough to burn of deposits. Engines not getting to operating temp will foul plugs as will one where the deposits build up faster than they can be burnt off.(burning oil)(rich mixtures).
One can heat the insulators with a propane (or Map Gas) to clean them back to a white condition. Be careful not to overheat the ground electrode. Rick
Posted By: JTsmks

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/30/08 12:29 am

I'd put two 6 volt coils and Champion N5C's on the thing and see how that does it. I feel all the carb work has you running in circles, I'd pitch that harley coil over to someone who rides a harley. I don't feel at this point the carbon fouling is a carb result, I know I've been there. Just the wrong heat range and non-solid copper wires were killing my plugs (N3C as under the seat + silicone wires...damn PO!) I could be wrong but then again two asian 6 volts won't run you much, neither do N5Cs. All IMHO smile
Posted By: highway

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/30/08 1:51 am

There is nothing in the tuning of the Amal MII, T140s that should require plugs two ranges hotter than the earlier T140. The compression was dropped to 8.2 from the earlier 8.7, but other than that it is just a 1973 to 1978 TR7 head with two intake stubs fitted. The operating temperature did not decrease significantly to warrant it, and most now have the higher ratio fitted. An English rode test of the day stated Triumph fitted them to reduce fouling and stated the bikes carburation seemed rich.
Most we got in had the pilot and enricheners jets reduced in size and some required more cutaway from new. The bikes ran cleaner, better and had improved gas mileage. (important on a small tank machine). Once sorted N3 plugs were used.
I had a customer ask for N12y plugs for his commando years ago. I told him they run N7y, to which he replied the 12s work better in his bike as the others don't last a couple of days, He rode off leaving behind a haze of blue smoke. Going up one range on a tired engine is not usually a problem, by going higher can result in holed pistons at highway speeds.
I think you should try #20 pilots, as the bike seems to be much closer to correct. I don't know how the 405 plugs relate in heat range to champion but I would think they are probably hotter than they need to be. Rick
Posted By: aprophet

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/30/08 2:16 am

looking at a NGK cross referance it looks like 405 is the equivelent of champion N-5 before i got my electics sorted my A65C would not run on anything but champions i had to change plugs a coupla times to belive ithope you figger it out beerchug
Posted By: JTsmks

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/30/08 2:44 am

1979 and up T140D and T140E takes Champion N5C or equivalent. Earlier T140V takes N3C. Highway you are fully entitled to your take on the subject as are all that read and post here. I'm just stating what comes from the manufacture and from Champion themselves + in my stock set T140D it carbon fouls N3Cs and runs just fine on N5Cs as recommended by the manufacture, so far many a thousand miles and no fouled plugs and no holed pistons.

NGK lists the B8ES for T140V and B6ES for T140D and T140E.
Champion lists N3C for T140V and N5C for T140D and T140E.
Posted By: Mark Z

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/30/08 3:05 am

Sawtooth: "ignition - stock electronic - not BOYER".

Ok? Lucas Rita ig., not points!

So we think that stock jetting should work with 1.75 open pipes?
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/30/08 1:09 pm

mom! dad! please don't fight ; )) (re: plugs)

my take on the plug subject is that...contrary to popular belief..the autolite might just be a better plug...i have no evidence to support this other than the 4 autolites that i have been using on and off since the this nightmare began vs 20+ ngk/champs...i have collected in a box..i've cleaned them and attempted to reuse them and they work but not for long...this in contrast to the autolites which keep on performing

now unless there is major difference in heat range (fyi my research has showed that that the 405 is equivalent to a N6..but this thread suggests that they are equivalent to N5) the autolite must just be a better plug

ok..back to business

so whats my next step??

pilot jets? (ie #20's)

or attack the iginition? (which is not a points setup - transducer/reluctor/magnet/amplifier (lucas)
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/30/08 1:51 pm

"There is nothing in the tuning of the Amal MII, T140s that should require plugs two ranges hotter than the earlier T140. The compression was dropped to 8.2 from the earlier 8.7, but other than that it is just a 1973 to 1978 TR7 head with two intake stubs fitted. The operating temperature did not decrease significantly to warrant it, and most now have the higher ratio fitted. An English rode test of the day stated Triumph fitted them to reduce fouling and stated the bikes carburation seemed rich."

Wrong!
John
Posted By: triumphmike

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/30/08 7:00 pm

sawtooth,

Let's step back for a second and look the big picture. Two of the items you mentioned above really stand out to me:

1. Ran poorly above 1/4 throttle - this really points to the needle and needle jet (ignoring the fouling problem for the moment). Above 1/4 throttle the pilot jet has little or no influence with the carburation.

2. Running 1 3/4" open exhaust pipes - little or no back pressure (which mufflers provide to varying degrees) usually means carbs must be tuned richer (engine want more fuel).

IMHO your needle jet SHOULD be a .106 and your needle a 2A1 (assuming all else is 100%). However your plug fouling problem infers the engine is running too rich which is contradictory.

I have a T140D with an a single Accel 3 ohm coil and a Boyer. The Lucas Rita ignition was giving me problems and, once I replaced the stock coils and ignition, it runs exceptionaly well (3.5 slide, .106 needle jets, 2A1 needle center notch, #15 pilots, #20 chokes). The exhaust is the original 2-into-1 system but I replaced the original muffler (read "boat anchor") with a SuperTrapp. I am also using B7ES plugs.

After a long way around the barn, I would recommend you replace your Rita ignition with a Boyer, but based on the info you provided as to the rest of the setup I think you will still need to tweak.
Posted By: JTsmks

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/30/08 7:05 pm

ST, If it were me (and it isn't) I'd pitch the Harley coil in trade for two 6 volts, replace the plugs with NEW N5Cs (people here talked me back to champions and I haven't regretted it) or equivalent and make sure your running solid wire wires. Alot of problems in the primary and secondary ignition system go toward carbs at times. I've no doubt you had carb issues but I think you've rebuilt and resolved. Now get the ignition to square one, timing set, carbs adjusted to base and see where you are.
Posted By: az-idea

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/30/08 10:16 pm

..Gotta confirm Saw's Conclusion on Autolites when in the Dark Tuneing phase..They eat Champs\NGK's For Brekfast..Way more Robust and reliable..However,I Agree 405[N5\Ngk6]is too hot..Stick with 404\AP64's...Just noticed you Run"open"1 3\4"pipe..Youll want a"key"style insert at the end[s]for back pressure[adjustable angle vs flow] to get proper top end or,they will scavenge most of your cylinder charge at upper range if left Open..Disagree that at 1\4 throttle your off pilot..theres overlap even into 3\4...vice versa the Main will,if too big,affect lower throttle..overlap is something to always keep in mind!...Time to try 20 pilot...and possibly..to step down the needle jet..You run open pipe..They may Burble at Idle..but once under throttle they pull on the jets more and you[as your discovering]need to lean from Standard jet sizes..IMHO..and..stick with the COIL YOU HAVE..for now...
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 06/30/08 11:51 pm

i guess my objective at this point is to get it running consistently and better...i am not expecting perfection at this point...i just don't have the $$$

i just spent $250+ on carb parts and would prefer not to re-purchase the same parts again (ie .105 vs .106)

but i can't imagine #20 pilot jets to be all that expensive

i am going to stick with coil i have for now..i do have the accel coil that came with bike but ..again...the harley coil is new and i don't want to go back out and buy yet another new coil setup...yes it may be THE best thing to do...but unless i come into some money..i will have to stick with what i have

and please understand..its not that i am being cheap..its just that i have invested way too much money into this project...and if it wasn't for my zeal to finish something that i start and need to make things "right" this bike would have been ebay'd many months ago

my paid friends are insisting that i get a boyer..there no evidence to suggest that its a must have but basically the ignition system is the only system on the bike that hasn't been replaced or reconditioned

i did pick up a "ignition spark tester" today (one end is inserted into the plug...there is a clip which goes to ground and its adjustable from standard, electronic & 2-4kV) as highway noted this might give me a better indication of what is going on with the ignition system

unless anyone can suggest otherwise i will start saving for a boyer and pickup the #20 pilots

just another $150+..i keep telling myself that i've gone this far...whats another couple of hundred...i don't know just seems like there is no end in site..i guess if i was smart and not so obsessed with making things "right" i would just sell the albatross and be done with it

and i might as well buy a set of 404's while i am at it..

mr. tooth
Posted By: JTsmks

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/01/08 12:30 am

Holycrap, I didn't relize my Rita ignition was such a piece of junk. I'm going out and taking a hammer to it pronto! I can't believe I ever went out on the open road with it! wink
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/01/08 1:11 am

I don't know if they are junk or not...but my experience with this turd is any indication i am sure MINE is junk : )
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/01/08 1:13 am

I sent my spare Rita amp to Mistral Eng in England for a rebuild. I have a Boyer in my 78 T140V and I am swapping them out. I have no problems with the Rita. I'll sell the Boyer before too long.
----
More dumb questions. Are the plug wires getting bare spots and grounding on the head? Are the connections good at the rectifier?
It must rev to 3600 to set the timing under no load.
Are the needles free in the pilot jets?
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/01/08 1:22 am

Thought I would share some info from my collection of letters. This might clear the ari about Champion N5 plugs in teh T140E models.

The Champion N5 spark plugs are the perfect heat range for this motorcycle. If you are unable to burn off the carbon with the N5's anything cooler would just foul quicker.

Please remember that these comments by Brian Jones refer to the 1979 models. They were struggling to meet EPA requirements and these carbs were, if anything, set up at the factory LEAN to pass rigid emmsion tests. Modifications made by US dealers, including modifying the carb to UK specifications, were to make them run a bit richer.


[img]http://members.aol.com:/triumphownerclub/app00711[/img]

[img]http://members.aol.com:/triumphownerclub/app00722[/img]
Posted By: az-idea

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/01/08 1:54 am

Forgot for Stock T140\detuned Cam..N5 is Best..Take Johns word on that..[but stick with the Autolites..!]..your pilots will be cheap Btw..and Check M.A.P if you decide to 105NJ..[think $15 apiece]..
Posted By: John Cahill

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/01/08 5:56 am

hi, sawtooth
not sure if this helps or not...but I have pretty much the same bike, same setup and had the same sooty plug problem until I changed back to stock mufflers. On the other hand though, I am at 4300 ft elevation. I know conventional wisdom says that straight-through bikes meed more fuel...but in my experience it went the other way round. I am oversimplifying a bit, and did in fact change out virtually every bit of the carb as well (although sequentially..noting the changes as I went)...but I definitely noticed less carbon fouling swapping back to stock pipes. Just a thought. Also, my first set of new 2C3 needles were actually tapered wrong and too rich...another consideration.
regards,
John
Posted By: JTsmks

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/01/08 11:36 am

My T140D has 1 1/2" MAP aftermarket pipes and low restriction aftermarket mufflers, the carbs are bone stock MKIIs, I've no fouling problems with the stock ignition and N5Cs. I did have plenty of fouling when I ran silicone wires and N3C/B7ES.
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/01/08 1:05 pm

ok...so i will keep working with my autolite 405's ~ N5/N6?

i am serious when i say that these plugs just keep on working (knock on wood)..fouled or not..they just keep working vs. ngk/champs which fouled and died ....cleaned ..and then they would die again in 5-10 minutes

pipes: i agree this is part of the issue (ie back pressure)

but its been my experience that if you modify the exhaust to be less restrictive then you need to modify the intake as well..so it too less restrictive - that is why i pulled my air cleaners initially and the bike did perform better (see other threads) air cleaners are currently installed...breath out easy - breath in easy.

so now i am going to go out and purchase purchase a new set of 404'S & 405's (or maybe not... the wife is getting sick of me buying plugs..yes i am cleaning/re-using....the ngk/champs are destined for a decorative wind chime)

i will test the spark intensity with my new fangled spark tester and report the findings

and that will have to be it for now becuase thats all $$ i have at this time...but my wish list includes #20 pilot jets and a boyer ignition.
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/01/08 7:10 pm

i wonder if a could rig up some form of screen (yeah and kill the engine in the process) on the carb air intakes and ditch the stock air cleaners?

i bet nickels for nightmares that a "high performance" air intake/setup would improve the running/performance

..tunner 101
Posted By: highway

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/01/08 8:16 pm

I was WRONG, The comp ratio dropped to 7.9 on ES models.
However, If the parallel port head runs that much cooler to need plugs 2 heat ranges colder than the splayered head T140. (The splayed head loses some finning with the ports farther apart).One could assume the Tr6 and the TR7 would also need a colder plug than the one fitted to the T120 or the T140 (to 1978)
I don.t believe they run THAT much colder. I also believe a concentric carb TR7 would under the same tune and conditions have survived the testing with n5 plugs with similar results, and if the air screw was turned in a half turn too far, OR. the slide cut away 1/2 size to small it too would have benefitted as the t140e did, with its richer than needed, pilot and starting circuit. The fact that they mention the N5 plugs are "more forgiving" to rich starting mixture, I can't help to think if 25 starting and 20 pilots were used in the test bike, Being "more forgiving:" wouldn't have been an issue.
Although this letter was written in 79 we were still getting from the factory in 1983 bikes with the same rich, around the town, carboning up that we had in 79.
I have used N3 and n4 plugs in Bsa and tri. twins for years Including T140D and T140es and found, as the test did, a benefit in using N5 plugs.......until the pilot size and/or slide cutaway were corrected.
One must also consider when selecting main jet sizes and plug heat range that todays and tomorrows gas is not what it iused to be. Lower octane, ethanol, methanol. etc. can lead to mixture changes, pre ignition, detonation, heat spiking . Running a plug just hot enough to burn clean in a properly jetted engine, is a safer bet than running a hotter plug to cure low speed richness, or an oil burning issue.
Of coarse this is my own humble opinion. RICK
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/01/08 9:46 pm

Highway:
I tried to respond to this, but after typing for an hour and making several links to sites that discuss modern gasoline I deleted it all when I got this flash.

I think the graphic that sums up MHO = :rolleyes:

It ain't about the fins, it is about combustion efficiency!

www.fefcholden.org.au/techinfo/BPFuels_PET2002.doc

BUT none of this helps Sawtooth!!!!
John
Posted By: tomterrific

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/01/08 10:38 pm

I gave my MKII jetting changes somewhere. They are very much similar to Steve's except... I used the #25 jet in the enrichening circuit, the #15 pilot jets AND I pulled out the air correction jets.

I spent the coin to get the enrichment lever on the handlebars. I love it. The #25 jets make it a less on-off sort of system and more of a fast idle. I think I could get away with #20 jets in the enricheners and it would be smoother with the choke on.

A Boyer needs the throttle blipped to 5000rpm to check full advance. The Lucas Rita?

A straight through exhaust may have reversion problems through the carbs. This is where a strong positive signal goes back up the exhaust during valve overlap. It will run as rich as a river at this point in the rpm band. Straight through exhaust doesn't work so well for a street bike.

I've heard the parallel port heads have a lot of swirl in the CC. Larry Widmere's theory on both why he could run diesel compression ratios and extremely lean mixtures on his high swirl NASCAR engines was that the fuel tended to concentrate in the center of the combustion chamber. This gave a natural stratified charge. I wonder if this is something happening in the T140E head to make it seem to run rich? Bathing the plug tip in a rich mixture.

If the intake mixture is directed at the spark plug tip the plug will run cooler. This may be another reason the T140E heads need a hot plug. The plug itself is running no hotter than a two step cooler plug on an older splayed port head. IOW, the N5C in the parallel port head runs the same temperature as the N3C in a splayed port head. Don't know, just speculating.

Tom Graham
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/01/08 11:58 pm

Tom, I did remove the 'top hats'( air correction jets). I just forgot to add it.
I always thought the parallel port head has poorer flow characteristics, there is a head bolt in the way on the intake port, than the splayed port so a hotter plug is needed as a fix for a more complete burn. It's like the Chevy spark tracking of the 80s. A quick fix for poor CC design. If not mistaken Widmere's intake design is very sophisticated leading to excellent flow characteristics
and atomization. But NASCARs are always a top revs as well, yes?
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/02/08 12:06 am

"A straight through exhaust may have reversion problems through the carbs. This is where a strong positive signal goes back up the exhaust durring valve overlap. It will run as rich as a river at this point in the rpm band."

This can be seen on a dyno run when you connect a gas ****yzer to the dyno computer. You can match the drop in hp with the momentary richness. This is a much bigger problem with megaphones.

Keven Camneron discussed the effects of parallel ports on the T140, the "swirl effect" and resultant lower combustion temperatures in a previous issue of Vintage bike. But this is not going to fix Sawtooth's bike.

"The plug itself is running no hotter than a two step cooler plug on an older splayed port head. IOW, the N5C in the parallel port head runs the same temperature as the N3C in a splayed port head"

Yes, if it ran hotter there would be problems. Below 850 degrees F and carbon begins to collect on the plug. Approaching 1500 degrees F and the metals and ceramic start to fail. The aim is to keep some where in between these temperatures.

But again, while interesting it does not solve Sawtooth's problem.

Now sawtooth is running a .105 needle jet. That jet with a 2C3 needle should be lean from just above idle to nearly half throttle, or above. NOT RICH. So what are we not seeing?

Please note that I think Steve has removed his air correction jet as has Tom. This will also lean out the mixture as it reduces the signal on the jets.
John
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/02/08 1:25 am

OK..at the risk of being nieve...where is this "top hat"? air correction jet?

triumph mike mentioned this in one of my other threads

-Remove the "top hat" (restricter) from the intake. You have to remove the "bell mouth" (2 screws, recessed, with British locktite) and the top hat will fall out from the carb body.

should i be removing my top hat?? or baseball cap?? or whatever??

the turd ran very well this evening - ran new 404's and they were fouled by the time i returned home but there was some brown...the turd still ran regardless..and ran well thru out the throttle range

(gone from off white with 405's to fouled and lil brown with the 404's)

i used my lil ignition tester... i had consistent and strong spark ..on and off throttle ...up to 2kV

mr. t
Posted By: Mark Z

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/02/08 2:32 am

I have had three different sets of mufflers on my A65s that had removable baffles. In all three cases, when I removed the baffles, the bike ran exactly as you described: lot of torque at low rpms, very easy to go with very little throttle, but the bike simply would not rev, and would only run at small throttle openings.

I never tried to re-jet for no baffles because I was just playing around. Instead I just put the baffles back in.

Seriously, I would try getting some back pressure in the exhaust before messing with anything else. This at least will tell you where the problem lies, if it runs better with some baffling. Even longer open pipes provide more back pressure.
Posted By: tomterrific

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/02/08 3:41 am

I don't feel very good about 1 3/4" pipes either. No pull. Michael Morse calculated the effect of using 1 3/4" pipes on an xs650yamaha as not coming on the pipe until over 9000rpm. They are just too big to get a pull from the exhaust charge. Big pipes have more back pressure than small pipes as unintuitive as that sounds.

Michael Morse came up with a fix for too large 1 3/4" pipes for the street tracker crowd. It consists of a anti-reversion cone at the port and a length of smaller diameter tubing inside at the exit of the pipe. Michael runs Vintage Brake so a call may be in order. You could make the high velocity exit tube (you can name it something else :^) by flaring each end of 1.5" or even 1.375" exhaust pipe about 10 inches long or a little longer. A muffler shop can make up the two pieces easy.

The air jet can be found by removing the intake bell at teh mouth of each carb. I remember two screws and the front of the carb comes off. The jet will be obvious, just pull it out and replace the bell.

Tom Graham
Posted By: Alan in TN

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/02/08 4:18 am

1978 T140EBX

Question for Mr. Terrific:

I have a stock system but am putting on new mufflers similar to the Norton style. They are a straight thru configuration. No baffles like the stock Triumph cigars. My question is do I need to change my carb jetting at the intermediate thru WOT due to the drop in back pressure compared to the stock mufflers? Or can I just keep my same set up and not worry about the backpressure differential?

I value your input. You gave me some good info when I first got my T140E that was very helpful.

Any input you can provide will be helpful.

Alan
Posted By: Ducknaldo

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/02/08 9:43 am

My old Thunderbird(T140 head, Amal MKII´s, Bonneville cams and 750 ccm cylinder) had similar problems.
It always fouled at one of the cylinders and the other one seemed to be lean.
I tried alot of tricks and talked to alot of experts on the subject and nobody could really give me an answer.
I had the MKII´s checked by professionals and they were found ok.
When I changed right to left carb, the problem also moved to the other cylinder.
On a vacation in Holland a friend suggested I tried to put 105 needle jets in them.
We were going back to Denmark the same day and I really wanted it to be ok for the trip so I tried it.
After half an hour on the highway, it was all over.
The 105 needle jets had completely overheated and wrecked the engine.
Now I know you have a problem with fouling and not lean running, but I strongly suggest that immediately when you have found the problem, change the needle jets to 106 again.
After my breakdown i decided not to waste any more time, money and energy on those MKII´s, it just seems something was wrong with them eventhough nobody ever found the reason.
I put on concentrics after having rebored, changed pistons and I never had a fuel problem again.
Maybe you have a friend from which you can borrow a set of Concentrics, cause these MKII´s, well yeah, I dont have alot of good stuff to say about them.
After all they were made to pass new emission rules, not to make a better carbs.
After just one breakdown, it´s would propably have been cheaper to put concentrics on it.
Posted By: JTsmks

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/02/08 10:46 am

Been running stock set-up MKIIs for 14 years on my 79 with NO problems. No bellmouths removed no slide changes no cutaway adjustments. Watch for the "chasing your tail" syndrome. To many parts/adjustments thrown about in short order will have you second guessing everything and listening to every street corner expert. I'm not saying some of the advice given isn't sound. It's amazing to me once again that my stock MKIIs are crap and I should smack them with a hammer for being junk! First my Rita now my MKIIS! I'm never leaving the drivway again! wink
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/02/08 12:03 pm

I rode the turd to work this morning..we will see if i make it home : )

JT: i don't know about Rita but i wish they wouldn't knock the MKII. i just spent a bunch of money on these old dogs...plus, I had set JRC's Keihin in hand and ...opted for replacement parts for the ol'Amals. FYI my biggest reason for not going with JRC's is becuase my parts guy sent me the wrong model (i don't have the bolt on manifold) and in comparison the JRC seemed dimensionally smaller ..ie they just didn't look right on the bike (again, wrong model??) Did i pass up on salvation? Oh well.

Back to business

1. The question still stands..should I remove my top hat??
(and cane? : ))

2. was 2kV at the plug good???

3. There has been bunch of talk exhuast but what about intake (other than carb)?? Its my understanding that the stock airbox setup isn't particularly restrictive but ...as i mentioned previously..if you are running an open, non restrictive pipe...doesn't it stand to reason that you need to be running a non restrictive intake??

Due to my modification (ie 1.75" open pipe), the nature of the system is to draw more air...a restriction at the air intake would act much like clogged air filter and conseqently the bike would show signs of running rich.

Tuner 101 - you can modify the air intake without modifying the exhaust (the performance gain will be minimal) but you can't modify the exhaust without modifying the air intake. To gain the most performance you should modify both (the biggest performance gain is produced by the exhaust - in combo with the intake)

is this thinking full of pooh??

mr. t
Posted By: Ducknaldo

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/02/08 12:44 pm

JTsmks
I did not say that YOUR MKII´s are junk, but mine was for sure and I should have dumped them before, that would have saved me lots of trouble and a trashed engine.
Ofcourse you shouldnt smash yours if they are working, but if they are not working, maybe it would be a good idea to try something else, or?

Did you run 105 needle jets in your MKII´s for 14 years?
Propably not and there´s a reason for that.

And ofcourse sawtooth shouldnt try out all this stuff at once, people are trying to help here and he can choose whatever soulutions he finds reasonable. Nothing wrong with that as I see it.
Posted By: triumphmike

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/02/08 1:17 pm

Mr. Tooth

If you look at the intake side of the MkII carb you will see 5 holes in the bell mouth if memory serves me correctly. Two of these are for the screws that hold the bell mouth to the body of the carb. The other 3 are below the slide and you should see one of the holes has a shiny metallic (aluminum) insert. This "top hat" is a restrictor for the needle jet equalizing air (if you look at a needle jet it has a tiny hole drilled in the side for air to allow for better atomization of the fuel as it is drawn through the needle jet).

In order to remove the restrictor or top hat, you must remove the bell mouth from the carb body (carb must be removed from the engine). This is not always easy as the Brit's used a form of locktite on these screws. I always place the carb on a solid surface with a block of wood underneath and "smack" the screws with a properly sized screw driver to break some of the bond. Do not stripe the head of the screw or you will have either drill it out or leave it alone.

We do this on all our street bikes and our race bikes.

The condition of having a poor power band with open pipes is what is also knowd as "pipe-itis". Triumph engines with large intake ports and large, open exhaust systems with aggressive cams (Jack Wilson of Big D did a lot of this on his Bonneville Salt Flats bikes) can create a lot of horsepower but only over a limited and high RPM range. Getting that type of engine up to that range (7000+ rpm) can take some time as the bike must "work through" the lower rpms.

I realize you are getting a lot of replys on this topic and have tried many options. If you have any old mufflers (I assume your 1 3/4 pipes are one for each cylinder with no crossover pipe) try putting them on the pipes and see what affect it has on the performance.

Are you planning on going to Mid-Ohio?
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/02/08 2:19 pm

thank you tmike - next time the carbs are off i will give it a try. what will removing the top hat do for the carbs etc - good information...and i am sorry to say that i am not going to Mid-Ohio

ducknaldo: no worries : ) - was just very torn between new carbs or repairing the old...and if i didn't repair the old i wouldn't have had the chance to learn so much about the amal carb (wait that might not have been such a good thing ; )

mr. t
Posted By: triumphmike

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/02/08 2:25 pm

mr. t

You may have already stated this (this thread has taken on a life of its own), but have you checked the internals of the choke levers? They can be unscrewed from the carb body (whitworth, if I remember correct) and then you can check the condition of the plunger seat. Sometimes they can creep up in which case the choke does not fully close even with the lever in the up position. This can be done easily with on the timing side carb while on the bike but you usually have to remove the carb from the left side to get at it.
Posted By: tomterrific

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/02/08 3:06 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Alan in TN:
[I have a stock system but am putting on new mufflers similar to the Norton style. They are a straight thru configuration. No baffles like the stock Triumph cigars. My question is do I need to change my carb jetting at the intermediate thru WOT due to the drop in back pressure compared to the stock mufflers? Or can I just keep my same set up and not worry about the backpressure differential?
----------------------------
Hi Allen,

The old trick of running WOT and noting the reaction of the engine when the throttle is closed works fine for determining main jet size. I have found 220 main jets too lean and 240 too rich this way. Running 230 mains with Dunstalls on the original crossover pipes. I have pulled the air jet out of the carbs and have the 106 needle jets with the appropriate needle. (I don't remember the size used)

Here is how this is done: WOT, like a run to 90+ on a country road. Close the throttle. If the engine feels like it picks up, the jet is too lean. If the engine breaks up, the jet is too rich. I've had better luck feeling out lean jets. The fuel has more inertia so keeps flowing for a second after the air through the carb. Lately I've been riding like an old man but I used to be in the main jet all the time so I got used to feeling what the carbs needed.

Tom Graham
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/02/08 3:13 pm

tmike- i have not investigated the chokes since install - however they are brand spank me new and did match up with old pair

t-man
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/02/08 5:31 pm

eh..turd barely made it home on the lunch hour...misfiring, fouling... i parked it in the toilet (aka garage) and took the 900 back to work..

i will pull the plugs later and the air cleaners and see what it does but obviously i need to spend more money to see any real significant change

i could install the dunstall knock offs that came with the bike but i don't know if they would fit my current pipes...plus i don't want to chew up the pipes in the process

the concesus is that i've spent way too much money on trying to make this work and i should just bail
Posted By: triumphmike

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/02/08 5:42 pm

I feel your pain - been there, done that, got the tee shirt. When this happens, I will usually put the project aside awhile until I am ready to re-tackle it. Good luck.
Posted By: Ducknaldo

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/02/08 7:14 pm

Feel sorry for you mate, we´ve all been there at some point.
Would it be possible for you to borrow some carbs that you know for a fact are working?
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/02/08 7:51 pm

borrow carbs: unfortunately no...

i will jsut have to wait and save my money..buy a boyer and pilot jets and hope it helps..which it won't
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/02/08 9:37 pm

"i will pull the plugs later and the air cleaners and see what it does but obviously i need to spend more money to see any real significant change"

Sigh, no. While you might accidently stumble over the problem by throwing money at it it would be wiser to understand how one goes about diagnosing problems.

I cannot say this enough: Unless you are extremely lucky, randomly throwing money, time and parts at this problem is a waste of time. This thread has been like a ping pong match.

First, until you veryify you have both enough compression to support combustion and an ignition system capable of providing adequate spark you are wasting your time working on the carburetor. You need at least 120 pounds of compression, 150 would be better. You also need a ignition system, coil, wires and plugs that will throw a spark acros 3/8" air gap, 1/2" would be better. If the motor isn't producing enough heat from a normal combustion it will never clean the plug it will operate below 850F and foul. Without compression and spark the motor will not perform properly and trying to tune a carburetor will just be frustration.

Now you have given very few clues about the carburation: At first the bike ran well up to 1/4 throttle, but pinged and miss-fired over that. Now the bike seems to run well enough to run a few miles before it fouls the plug.

I mentioned that with a 2C3 needle, which is approx .004" larger in the taper area than the factory installed 2A1, used with a .105" needle jet will cause the carburetor to be VERY lean. Read Ducknaldo's experience above. This could be explaining the pinging you were experiencing above 1/4 throttle.

With modern gasoline, which has a tendancy to leave a coating of black carbon on the plug, it is possible to be running lean, seize the motor and have been experiencing fouled plugs. It is a side effect of the compounds used to make unleaded gasoline.

Now until you understand the jetting stages these carburetors work with and are able to identify the parts that are being used to deliver fuel at any throttle opening so instead of making random guesses you actually work with the jet that is effecting the performance.

Bike pings at 1/4 throttle, at 1/4 throttle the size of the needle jet has the strongest influence... The straight part of the needle (.098" diameter) is still in needle jet ... install a larger needle jet.

Now speed is going to have an effect on the plug's temperature and its ability to burn off excess carbon. If you put around in high gear under 2,000 rpm you can expect fouled plugs. Drop transmission down a couple of gears and get the rpm's up to the point where the plug is operating at a proper temperature or put in a hotter plug.

This bike should not be running .105" needle jets with 2C3 needles. That is too lean!

See what every one else is running with straight pipes... after insuring you have compression and spark run the bike at different throttle openings and tell us the symptoms at each throttle opening 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and Full Throttle.
John
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/02/08 9:45 pm

John said it correctly:

Quote:
"What are we not seeing"
The plugs are fouling rich. So, what are we not seeing? Removing the top hats will lean the system. But is it enough?
Two things I am thinking - yes been there before.
Is it ignition? He has spark but does it weaken when hot. Bad connection somewhere. Unplug the Rita amp and plug back in. This scrapes off the corrosion. I know it was the early Ritas that had this problem but it may work.
Next, put the old enrichenring rods in WITHOUT the linkage. You can dribble some gas in the carb to 'choke' it. Fire it up.
How many times do you rebuild a carb?
The more I think about it the more I go back to simple solutions.
Third, put it on a pallet and send it here. I want to see this one before I scratch a hole in my head.
Posted By: highway

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/02/08 10:04 pm

I never liked the taste of crow, it doesn' get better with age. Today I pulled a head off a T140es and compared it to a Tr7 head I have in stock. For years I ASSUMED Triuph simply stuck inlet spiggots on the Tr7 head, as they appear similar. The changes were more significent than I realized, and I bow to those who did more reseach than I before forming an opinion. I look forward to reading Kevens' article on the subject.
To sawtooth; A T140 I sold in 83 has over 90,000 miles on it without a problem, Intermittant prolems I've had with these were related to poor connections not the unit itself. I would concentrate on exhaust, possibly borrowing stock 650 exhaust pipes, Someone around there must have an old crappy pair they can lend. Rick
Posted By: highway

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/02/08 10:57 pm

I should have added the stock exhaust may help tuning the carbs if the problem is a combination of a large open exhaust and jetting. It will draw less attention of the police while opening it up on the street.
My favorite post is by Steve Erickson/ No mufflers,, 1 3/4 pipes,, might suspect your nieghbour is sugaring your gas tank...... That is my kind og humor. Rick
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/02/08 10:57 pm

here you go boys : (

http://watertown.craigslist.org/mcy/740787546.html

i have more picts ..fyi the black fork tubes and primary are my creation

i will continue to work on the ol'turd ..if i can't get the price (and i am probably asking way too much) i will keep it

as it sits right now... $4500 is $1000 short of what i have into it

i know i will never get back the time and money i have into it

live and learn.

rick
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/02/08 11:04 pm

"Third, put it on a pallet and send it here. I want to see this one before I scratch a hole in my head."

Me first, Steve...

I have eaten more than a bit myself! Never tastes good, but with my daughter-in-law's hot pepper jelly it is tolerable... I never looked at eating a bit of crow now and again making you a bad person, not at all.
John
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/02/08 11:53 pm

highway said:

Quote:
I never liked the taste of crow, it doesn't get better with age.
I keep B-B-Que sauce and beer around just for those occasions. I have eaten my share. But it's how we learn bigt

But I still think John is right. It is staring us in the face. The bike doesn't look bad and I know it's simple.

And now for the crow: I will send you two new #20 idle jets for postage. It's not the answer but you can have them anyway. Send an address.

And here's the bet: unplug and reconnect the Rita amp. Check the connections at the rectifier. Don't wiggle the wires. Give them a pull. The old wires break just before the connector. Give them a tug. Not the connectors but the wires themselves. Check the wires coming from the reluctor. They can break easily there. And check the connections from reluctor to amp - they are either under the tank or in front of it. If all looks good then try the old choke rods with no linkage.
I'll get the sauce frown and beer ready laugh

Sorry John - I saw it first laughing
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/03/08 1:19 am

Tulsa Steve..I read your earlier post and Tonights agenda included disconnecting the Rita (there was no markings left on it...no way to identify) and cleaning the connector pins. The corrosion was minimal but there was some green

The connectors to the recitifer are solid. I know this becuase when we overhauled the clutch they were thoroughly examined.

(I know the wires & connections from the rectifer to the regulator becuase i made the connections myself ....i am ****..trust me they are good ; )

I have not checked the connections at the reluctor..I have been inside the timing cover but didn't notice anything alarming at the connector or anything worth mentioning about the wires but I PROMISE I WILL TAKE A CLOSER LOOK ..heck i will even take pictures.

From the relutor to the amp is anyones guess...the pos former owner(s) did install a new wiring harness...but some of the things he did with it are stupid..ie how he routed it..some of the connections he made and how he made them ex: soldering six wires together in the headlight..WHY!! (again, **** I fixed)

He spliced wires where the didn't need to be SPLICED! Forgive me for making light of the criminally insane - but this guy required some serious meds!!

But on the plus side where he did his work is easy to find and minimal (other than the what was going on in the headlight...i sure he had been drinking at that point and i spent my time this winter documenting, reconnecting and cleaning up the mess.

But I digress...while examining the connector at the Rita I did find one of his odd connections from the connector to the wiring harness ..he must have spliced the wires from the new harness to the wires of the old connector..so that is worth further exploration

I will gladly disconnect the choke linkage...on my next outing

After cleaning and reconnecting the Rita and my latest set of plugs..I did fire the turd and it idled very high..after warming I spun it down the drive and into the garage..and pulled the plugs for the heck of it and they were fouled as black as before I cleaned them.

I will get the linkage pulled and examine the wires and connections as suggested.

Mr. Tooth
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/03/08 1:19 am

Tulsa Steve..I read your earlier post and Tonights agenda included disconnecting the Rita (there was no markings left on it...no way to identify) and cleaning the connector pins. The corrosion was minimal but there was some green

The connectors to the recitifer are solid. I know this becuase when we overhauled the clutch they were thoroughly examined.

(I know the wires & connections from the rectifer to the regulator becuase i made the connections myself ....i am ****..trust me they are good ; )

I have not checked the connections at the reluctor..I have been inside the timing cover but didn't notice anything alarming at the connector or anything worth mentioning about the wires but I PROMISE I WILL TAKE A CLOSER LOOK ..heck i will even take pictures.

From the relutor to the amp is anyones guess...the pos former owner(s) did install a new wiring harness...but some of the things he did with it are stupid..ie how he routed it..some of the connections he made and how he made them ex: soldering six wires together in the headlight..WHY!! (again, **** I fixed)

He spliced wires where the didn't need to be SPLICED! Forgive me for making light of the criminally insane - but this guy required some serious meds!!

But on the plus side where he did his work is easy to find and minimal (other than the what was going on in the headlight...i sure he had been drinking at that point and i spent my time this winter documenting, reconnecting and cleaning up the mess.

But I digress...while examining the connector at the Rita I did find one of his odd connections from the connector to the wiring harness ..he must have spliced the wires from the new harness to the wires of the old connector..so that is worth further exploration

I will gladly disconnect the choke linkage...on my next outing

After cleaning and reconnecting the Rita and my latest set of plugs..I did fire the turd and it idled very high..after warming I spun it down the drive and into the garage..and pulled the plugs for the heck of it and they were fouled as black as before I cleaned them.

I will get the linkage pulled and examine the wires and connections as suggested.

Mr. Tooth
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/03/08 1:34 am

Drat!!
I'll get the bar-b-que sauce ready. frown
Remember to check the choke rods brass fitting length old vs. new.
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/03/08 11:29 am

I should have time this evening (or tomorrow) to pull the linkage, remove the chokes and compare to the original...

i assume ...that if there is a noticeable difference...between the brass fittings it should be obvious??

(mr. saw thinks to himself.: "tulsa steve is going to need more bbq sauce ....becuase you know the enrichers were identical...you compared and fetished every part before you lovingly installed them..but in your zeal..you could have missed something...and you need to do this by the book. take & post picts. why is your underwear binding and why are taking to yourself??" : ))
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/03/08 11:40 am

Mr. John said "You also need a ignition system, coil, wires and plugs that will throw a spark acros 3/8" air gap, 1/2" would be better."

My lil igniton tester showed a spark that jump a 1/2" air gap (which is the 2kV mark on the tool).

Tested both plug wires with the same result ...at varying throttle. Spark did not degrade or become erratic at higher throttle.

Over half inch/2kV no spark.
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/03/08 12:12 pm

And compression?

What was that pinging and rough running you talked about above 1/4 throttle in your early posts?
And have you thought about getting a fresh batch of a different brand of gasoline?
John
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/03/08 1:37 pm

What was it?? I can only assume plug fouling??

In this thread, I also reported an episode where I went above 1/4 throttle and it misfired etc.

I then backed off throttle... then opeed it back up. I did this several times and condition subsided. (running 405's)

Compression: on my to do list. Observation says I have plenty. But I will report exact numbers.

Gas: 93 octane fresh - using Mobil and Sunoco.

In-line gas filters filtering (and yes they installed correctly ; ))
Posted By: Blapper

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/03/08 3:02 pm

Hey 'tooth,

I know you're pi$$ed, but selling your bike right now and for less than you have in it is like selling your stock when the market has crashed - daft! You only make a loss when you sell under those circs, so don't sell! WHEN you have licked it, you will have a superb bike.

By the way, mine had those pipes on when I got it and it was a rich sonofab*tch until I changed to peashooters and std diameter balanced pipes. Black plugs changed to brown.

For yours to foul so much so soon after cleaning the plugs, you have a real 'forehead smacking' moment waiting for you when you find the problem.

Good luck to you.

Blapper redwine
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/03/08 3:14 pm

I am not so pi$$ed as I am beaten.

I was annoyed when I spent my first $800 on repairs and I only started getting pi$$ed when i was forced to sell stuff, inorder to finance the remainder of the repairs. And there is/was always another repair.

Now I am just beaten.

Sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you.
Posted By: JTsmks

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/03/08 3:18 pm

Here is a picture of my set-up. Stock MKIIs, Stock air filters/box, N5Cs, Lucas Rita ignition, 6 volt Lucas coils, MAP 1 1/2"pipes w/o balance tube and 27" J.C Whitney mufflers with 7, 3/8" holes drill through the center baffle plate. Starts/runs/idles like a champ. Plenty loud w/o being anti-social and plenty of power/tourque.

Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/03/08 3:54 pm

very nice!! i don't have an mg (boy you are glutten for punishement ; ))

i do have two jack russell terriers..same amount of pain and suffering as mg and a triumph ; )) (just kidding)

i like anti-social
Posted By: JTsmks

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/03/08 4:38 pm

MG is now gone, in place is a Jaguar (now thats punishment!) I also run a set of "turn out" mufflers that are very anti-social yet provide a small bit of back pressure and actually improve sound because of their shape and size, they simply have two half moon baffle plates that ever so slightly reduce flow. On my 63 I used to run straight TT pipes with the listed "inserts" to provide some back pressure while keeping "noise" up.

http://www.jcwhitney.com/INTERNAL-BAFFLES/GP_2006266_N_111+10211+600014675_10111.jcw

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Universal...emZ260258401042

The latter is of no affiliation just an example of the turn-outs
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/03/08 5:59 pm

hey whats another $10 for baffles : )

(i might have to try the jc whitney models..could be worth it)

going to re-check the timing this evening
Posted By: az-idea

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/03/08 10:20 pm

Mr.Blizzard!!..Tooth..You are trying to get out of Manhattan with a Map for Philidelphia..Now,your gonna sell the Car!!??...Get the 15\20 pilots for Pete's sake!!..Move!!..
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/03/08 10:44 pm

COMPRESSION = 140-145 BOTH CYLINDERS

OK??
Posted By: Florida TR6

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/03/08 11:38 pm

Quote:
By RiffRaff
Quote:
These ol' Triumphs can run on 90 psi compression, they can run well at 130-135 and even better at 150-160.

Again, please insure that your valve adjustments are to spec first.

Compression tester in, WOT, 4 kicks per side should do it. You could also write down the reading for each of the 4 kicks, each side. By the fourth kick, the reading should pretty much peak out.

A difference of 10 lbs. between the 2 cylinders is considered acceptable....tho' obviously, closer to the same is better.
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/04/08 12:43 am

picts of the transducer/plug/reluctor

http://i25.tinypic.com/msbu47.jpg

http://i32.tinypic.com/2pq6j43.jpg

http://i32.tinypic.com/9gacdw.jpg
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/04/08 2:10 am

That reluctor is looking a bit ratty
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/04/08 12:15 pm

You should see the Rita amp.
Posted By: highway

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/04/08 11:11 pm

Did this bike ever run good for since you have owned it? Not for a short run but on a but on a regular day to day reliable basis. Did you buy it with the straight pipes that are now fitted?
When confronted with a bike that obviously needs more than a tune-up, I like to ask " When did the bike last run good???? The solution is often in the answer. ( Prior to long storage) ( Missing a shift and over reving) (Installing an after market exhaust) Rick
Posted By: Mark Z

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/05/08 2:36 am

It would be an awful shame to sell this bike before trying something as cheap and easy as throwing a set of mufflers on it.
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/05/08 12:27 pm

highway: it never ran right - purchased as a non runner ("it only needs fresh oil and plugs") - went straight into the shop in sept. '07 and came out late november - early december and into my garage until this spring - i heard it run in the shop...weather prevented a proper test ride until this spring - its been fouling ever since
Posted By: highway

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/05/08 10:47 pm

Think it is time to see what difference a stock exhaust would have. Someone, perhaps the local shop could loan you stock 650 pipes and ...with mufflers... your bike may stop running anti-social.... Though the ignition looks ratty, it seems to provide strong reliable spark, When small diameter pipes and mufflers are replaced with large open sewer pipes the result is rarely neutral or positve ,we're running out of answers. Rick
Posted By: Junior

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/06/08 1:25 pm

Been there,done that.This post is like Dejvu
from 2/3 years ago.Steve in Tulsa,myself and a
few others where struggling with our MKIIs.
John H provided the wisdom and education.
Learned to pull,strip,rebuild,and tune my MKIIs
blindfolded and in my sleep. mad
So I finally decided to add my 2cents.Just IMHO;

Frist $#!tcan the 1 3/4 open pipes! 1 1/2 or
stock 1 3/8s with muffles(not Megs)

Second,bite your tongue on replacing the Rita
for a Boyer (unless Rita completely smoked)
Make certain it is strobed spot on.Learn to do
this right or have someone that KNOWS how to do
it for you!

Third and a worth while up grade.(right place to spend your dough) is to change to the EU from US
jetting.
Go to; http://www.britcycle.com/Manuals/AmalMK11Tuning1.pdf
This is your bible ,print it out and study it.

That is what turned my 2 `79 Bonnies 140Es from
the proverbial "Turd",to sweet treasures. bigt

Good Luck...JR
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/06/08 4:05 pm

Junior - true.
But I think Saw has some major electrical problems to deal with as well. Once those are settled then we can redo the MKIIs
Posted By: Junior

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/06/08 5:50 pm

Hi Steve,you said you think he has major electrical problems.How major can his electrical
problems be if his bike starts,runs?
I know he said DPO did a real abortion on the wiring harness.This can be cleaned up after
the plug fouling is fixed.
I think the 3 things I mentioned above should
be addressed to stop the fouling.#2 you could say is electrical,timing spot on.

A few other things to check (I`m assuming they
have been done?)
New solid copper plug leads.Valves properly adj.
and check that there is no air leaks.(around carbs
manifold and cross over hose.

If all this is done right and the plug still
fouls,then I`ll have two large crow burgers!
confused JR....
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/07/08 1:09 pm

Hopefully the wiring issue has been resolved. Rita is now "burping the carbs". (ie there were TWO w/y from the female side of the connector...one went to coil and other went to kill. It should have been ONE w/y from amp to coil...and from coil to kill) This has been corrected.

I also found two solid blacks coming off that female connector (same pin)...one goes to negative on battery and i don't know where the other goes.

Just so we all know. Stator passed all tests and is kicking out 6v+ from each test. The battery has been load tested and it was showing 12v -13v.. idle/throttle

Timing is strobed dead on at 3500 RPM (i keep going back to this..the shop manual said to time at 2500 but everything else that I have read says 3500)

Plug wires are new copper and throwing 1/2" spark at 2kV. Plugs are gapped properly.

Enricher linkage is dismantled.

Cross over hoses tight

Air filters in..air filters out..makes no difference

Carb parts: Yes, I saw the britcycle pdf. I wish somone would have suggested these modificatinons (which they probably did) before I spent the $$$ on stock replacement parts : (

Intake valves are functioning and adjusted properly. Exhaust needs to be checked.

So what's left??

I can't afford to replace my new carb parts. I can remove the top hats (i hope).

I can rig up some form of exhaust restriction (mufflers, baffles) - can't use the old exhaust..junk. Plus the adapter spigots are welded in..i could cut them out but...ugh.

Ignition switch?? I've inspected this on numerous occasions ..checked to make sure the connections are good (not sure if they are right but the are good..everything appears to work) Jiggling the key does nothing.

I need an old priest and young priest.

Mr. tooth
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/07/08 5:22 pm

i scored baffles on my lunch hour ..$3 for the pair
Posted By: JTsmks

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/07/08 6:50 pm

I think it's 3500 at throttle but then again I may be daft. 3500 is the # I remember. ST be careful with the stock carb mount rubbers, the stock ones are junk and split real easy. I switched out to smooth radiator hose (1 1/2" dia if memory serves me right) which tighten up nice/resist heat and cracking + are cloth impregnated and are of a stiffer mount then the stockers (cheaper too!) just measure your stock ones and go the the local auto shop and measure any rad hose off the shelf, one rad hose will make several pair yet you should only need one pair for life (I went through tree pairs of stockers the first 5 years of it's life with me till switching)
Posted By: Blapper

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/07/08 7:05 pm

Air leaks = weak mixture, ST's problem is richness.

Blapper redwine
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/07/08 7:22 pm

actually its not richness..it's poor-ne$$
Posted By: JTsmks

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/07/08 8:24 pm

AH, but air leaks may make one tend to over compensate by making the machine run rich or tune towards the rich side. I'm just trying to help by insuring the basic set up is solid. ie, spark, intake etc. People tend to chase their tails when trying to sort out a machine thats not working properly. If the foundation isn't solid you'll spend plenty of time and $$$ trying to shore it up. No sense getting the carbs squared away and adjusted just to find a leaky x-over or intake mount.
Posted By: Blapper

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/07/08 8:50 pm

Quote:
AH, but air leaks may make one tend to over compensate by making the machine run rich or tune towards the rich side.
SAY WHAT? confused

Blapper redwine
Posted By: JTsmks

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/07/08 9:23 pm

I think it's plenty clear. Most people that have bought a unknown non-runner which has a intake leak of some sort may try to enrich the mixture to overcome an overly lean set-up. The problem may not lie in the set-up initially but may be that the machine is simply sucking in too much air from another source. Before starting ANY carb/set up work involved in dollars spent it is much wiser to get it running from the base set-up and spray some carb cleaner around looking for leaks. Once it is determined to be a solid foundation then I would pursue jets/slides/cutaways etc. I've seen more guys tinker with their set-up all the while their crossover tube was loose or cracked. In short I'm just making sure ST hasn't "overriched" his setup simply because the intake spigot has a leak.
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/08/08 1:35 am

no leaks in the rubbers or the cross over tubes

however jt does get a point!!! becuase approx. two weeks..i discovered the crossover tubes were not secure..its one of thos things you see every day and don't think anything about it..i replaced the tube and secure each side with brand spank me new hose clamps

annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd it didn't make a difference : (
(i am sure it actually made some difference..just like the w/y wire mess...lil things add up)


but i agree .eliminate suspects with a soild foundation
Posted By: Nick

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/08/08 1:40 am

Have you tried switching the carbs? That would pinpoint or eliminate the carb question.

Of course, there may be a nut loose between the seat and the handlebars....
Posted By: highway

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/08/08 3:11 am

I QUIT!
Posted By: Blapper

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/08/08 6:43 am

Hey Saw,

A few people - myself included have been asking all along if you have tried swapping the entire carbs from side to side, but IIRC, you don't even comment on that suggestion! It is the key point if you think about it, if the fault moves too, it's the carb, if not, it is mechanical or electrical (including timing) on the bad side only.

At first, just try the swap, then try adjusting the mixture.

Comment please?

Blapper redwine
Posted By: Junior

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/08/08 12:12 pm

I did the swap carbs thing,but let me tell you,
it`s a collosal PITA.The enrichers are now on the inside.Also adj screws hard to get to.Try it,but
its impossible to live with.Might try changing
everything that comes off/out of carbs bodies.

Some thing else that I forgot to mention,is the
thottle cables MUST be synced so slides move up
at exactly the same.
May not be your problem,but critical in making your ride "Turd proof".Any hesitation on acceleration can be this.
Go back to basics,float levels? Re adjust carefully.
Keep at it,GOOD LUCK...JR
Keep on
Posted By: Junior

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/08/08 12:44 pm

One more thing and I`ll shut up.
Not related to fouling,but IMHO the acchelles
heel of the T140s is the KILL swich.This a genuine POS. Both of my `79s numberous intermitten
problems caused by the kill switch.
The more I tried to clean and adj,the worst it got! Personally my fix for it is to go in the
head light shell and JUMP it OUT!
Unless my slides stick and I go off a cliff,life
is much better with it jumped out...
Sorry my 2cents turned out to be a quarter.<<G>>
JR...
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/08/08 12:50 pm

blap: sorry didn't mean to ignore the suggestion...the reason why i havn't bothered switching the carbs is becuase there hasn't been any SUSTAINED improvment in one carb or the other.

after the intial carb modifications there was some improvment in the right side BUT after further testing (and no changes to the system or modifcation) the carbon fouling developed in both side.

bottomline..whatever is causing the carbon fouling is occuring both plugs
so, at this point...switching the carbs would not help.

which leads us to ask what system(s) effect the carbs equally??

tulsa steve pointed out electrical...and i am in the process of eliminating that as an issue..

i discoverd a wiring oddity in the ignition system (which has been corrected) and i am in the process of double checking how sob had it wired vs. stock

and test..

if things don't improve

i will focus back on the carbs etc..installing the new pilot jets, removing the top hat etc..i will also investigate the exhaust valves

good?? ; ))

and just so we are all on the same page:

(not yelling)

THE PLUGS SHOW SIGNS OF CARBON FOULING FROM IDLE TO WOT.

HOWEVER, IF AFTER A TEST, A PLUG DOES SHOW SIGNS OF ENCOURAGEMENT ...FURTHER TEST RIDES HAVE RESULTED IN A COMPLETELY FOULED PLUG. (CARBON FOULED)

ABOVE 1/4 THROTTLE THE BIKE HAS A TENDENCY TO RUN ERRATICALLY ...BACKING ON AND OFF THE THROTTLE DOES HELP AND I CAN GET THE BIKE INTO THE UPPER RANGE

IMO THE BIKE RUNS UNEVENLY..ITS NOT SMOOTH..REGARDLESS OF THROTTLE
Posted By: tomterrific

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/08/08 12:56 pm

Happened to me too Junior. In my case it was a burned pin in the connector. I bypassed the large connector with bullets on the kill switch wire.

The kill switch on all old bikes is suspect. While sorting the carburetion on my junk XS650 the pig stopped and would not start. It would backfire and blow the carbs off but loud bangs was all I could get. I bypassed the kill switch and not only the bike started but the carb jetting cleared up too. (obviously wasn't the jetting that needed sorting)

Tom Graham
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/08/08 1:10 pm

kill switch is new- but i can easily bypass it.

at the risk of TMI: i bought a NEW right hand, kill/pilot switch. when i installed it the top half of the shell cracked : ( and no i didn't over tighten it..cheap casting)

i used the upper half from the original switch (that came with the bike) which had no wiring for the pilot switch... (the switch is there..just no wires)

the former owner had wired the bike for headlight on with ignition...so, my right hand switch is only a kill switch.
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/08/08 3:19 pm

The little dual lead white connector inside teh head light bucket that connects the main harness to the kill button is prone to corrosion. This corrosion creates resistance, heat and eventual melting (or at least dark discoloration of the white plastic). The resultant voltage drop from the resistance created by the corrosion can drive the ignition crazy. This could cause your above 1/4 throttle problems.
John
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/08/08 3:47 pm

The wires are new and the connections are good BUT i have added "bypassing the kill" to tonight's list.
Posted By: Blapper

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/08/08 4:53 pm

Good man 'tooth, we'll get there in the end. I wish you were round the corner from me, I'd love to help.

Blapper redwine
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/08/08 5:10 pm

thanks blap...head north on 81 and stop when your 30mins from the canadian border ; )

jr: carbs sync'd ..the mirror method was employed
Posted By: Junior

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/08/08 6:18 pm

Hi again tooth,I understand you have all ready
bought all new carb parts and are relunctant
to swap to EU configurations now.
If you keep the bike,consider changing in the future.Simply put the US jetting is crap.

You might want to do it a little at a time?
The most costly is the slides,keep your new #3
slides for now.
Change to 2A1 needles and .106 jets.
Then buy a couple #15 pilot jets.Try your old #25
pilots in you enrichers/choke (replace the US #50)
Might not solve fouling,but MKIIs run better this
way.
I`m assuming the enriching plungers are new or
properly seated?
Good Luck Dude,this is Britt Biking,it does make
one a good mechanic(one day)...JR bigt
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/08/08 6:29 pm

new slides are 3.5's
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/08/08 8:00 pm

Mr. Tooth I have organized a small care package. I will be coming UPS.

I have verified the size: 2 .105" and 2 .106" needle jets and made sure the cross drilled holes (.035") had any burrs removed (important). If there is any drilling swarf blocking the cross drilled holes it cause the bike to run rich.

Also in the box will be a pair of .106 needle jets where the cross drilled hole is opened up to .039". This will make it run leaner when the straight part of the needle is in the needle jet orifice.

Also you will find a couple of 15 and 20 pilots.
Also is a copy of the amal info I talked about.
Let's see if we can keep this thread from comprimzing 4 pages.
John
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/09/08 1:07 am

THANK YOU JOHN!!!

yes the thread has developed a life of its own

so, i will be brief:

exhaust valves: clearance .006, valves opening and closing

kill switch: bypassed (completely)

result: bike ran good thru out the throttle range (no misfires, no erratic running, etc.) throttle response good, i felt the bike ran smoother

and here is a pict. of one the plugs after 10-20 min test ride..open road and light city driving..

this is a BRAND NEW NGK B6ES : (

http://i38.tinypic.com/15hy591.jpg

for those who wish to continue this nightmare please email me off list..i appreciate the help...blap, JT, junior, highway..thank you everyone!!

A SPECIAL THANK YOU TO JOHN HEALY AND TULSA STEVE

keep the emails coming!

rick aka mr. tooth
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/09/08 1:33 pm

The perplexing thing with all this is to get the plug to be that rich you would have to be pouring raw gas into the mouth of the carburetor or blocking most of the air going through the air filters.

Mind you other factors can be in play here that are causing incomplete combustion which would include ignition, but lets talk carbs.

The mechanic in me still has problems with Mr tooth's "open road and light city driving." You should do one or the other as they typically use different jetting stages of the carburetor. You will need to ride at a steady THROTTLE position to begin to isolate the jetting circuit that might be causing this problem.

But here's the rub. I can see one carb having a problem where the carburtetor main body casting's main jet holder is cracked allowing raw gasoline to by-pass the jets (ask me how I know about that one- well the new Amal company has not been counter boring the casting's threads to allow the main jet holder to seat on the casting. So on the ocassion of being a typical American Ludite one decides to just continuing tightening the main jet holder even though you have run out of threads and one cracks the very expensive MKII aluminum body casting. Of course one thinks, "What is a little crack going to do." Well a lot.- There I feel better!) BUT OUR PROBLEM CHILD fouls both plugs.

Now, does Mr. Tooth really have two MKII needle jets? Are they the 4 stroke variety with the .035" holes drilled through the hex portion? Has the swarf from drilling the .035" hole been removed or is it partly blocking the holes (typical)? Are the needle jets really the size marked on the jet (been a problem, especially with aftermarket needle jets, but not exclusively)?

Following the idea that raw gasoline is getting into the carburetor on should examine the fuel filters. Very fine, small enough to flow through the Amal plastic filters, rust from the gas ank can upset the float needle. Thus even though the level looks good when checked statically, the fuel level rises when the bike is running as the small bits of rust hold the needle off the seat. Time to use the petcock. Turning the petcock off while running the bike will lower the gas level in the bowl. thus if the bike starts to run MUCH better as the gas level goes down you might just have a clue to work with.

Now the chokes in these carburetors can be problematic... The plugs look like what they would look like if you were running with the choke on. So here's what I would do. Amal makes a pilot jet (you know the one marked 15, 20, etc.) which is also used as a choke jet that has NO hole in it.

It is used to block one of the two pilot jet holes in the body (lacking a hole-less pilot jet I solder the jet orifice closed on an old donor jet which I wil later use for diagnostic purposes). I will replace the carb's choke jet with the one with no-hole (the choke jet is the one in the bottom of the float bowl). This completelty eliminates the fuel getting to the choke proving once and for all if the choke is the problem.

So where is all this gas coming from. Are both carb bodies cracked, is the choke leaking fuel, are the jets being used the proper type- size and debured, is the float needle really sealing off the flow of fuel when the bowl is full, is the ignition capable of running this motor... oh, for a 5 minute spin of this bike!
All for now...
john
Posted By: Blapper

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/09/08 1:55 pm

Quote:
thus if the bike starts to run MUCH better as the gas level goes down you might just have a clue to work with.
Not sure I agree with that one John - whatever the source of the richness, turning the fuel cock off will lead to a lowering of the fuel level in the bowl thus making the mixture weaker. Surely the rich bike will always run better whatever the cause?

Quote:
The plugs look like what they would look like if you were running with the choke on.
OMG! try running the bike with the choke lever in the other position - don't the MK 2's have the opposite choke lever 'sense' to the others?

Blapper redwine
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/09/08 3:50 pm

Mr. blap: The petcock trick is a long held well documented trick. Changing the float level changes the mixture delivered to the jetting system. Turning off the fuel flow is a quick-and-dirty way of checking the float level. One thing it does tell you if the bike starts to run well as the gas level goes down: is that it is probably not an electrical problem.

In a less definitive way it tells me that there might be a problem with float level if he problem starts to clear up shortly after the petcock is turned off. Either the level itself or a leaking float needle.

It roots go back to comments made by PE Irving, and often passed on by the likes of Kevin Cameron. It is one of many tricks one uses when trying to "trick" the carburetor while diagnosing problems. One is always looking for clues, whether they be smell, vibration, color, or what ever sense you can gather up to try to understand what is going on.

Yes, the handle bar mounted choke kit for the MKII would have the opposite action as used with the MKI. But there has been no mention to date that he has installed the remote choke kit. Either way, although a lot more work than closing a choke lever, blocking the flow of fuel to the choke circuit remains a good way to rule out the choke as the cause of the richness.

You know it's going to be a long day when the question starts out with my bike is running rich and I need a smaller main jet.

Starting to make sense, Mr Blap?
John
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/09/08 3:58 pm

Forgive me I should more clear regarding the test riding. When I say open road and light city riding...essentially..I am running thru all the gears between stops (3 stops and starts total)..I get out of town and cruise along in 5th..the return is just the oppoiste. I know that this isn't techncial ..but I hope it helps

The petcock idea is interesting..I will try it. I would hope the inline filters and the carb filters would be clearing out most of the debre.

The running gets much worse with the engine warm and chokes on...

The carbs will be coming off soon. I plan on taking detailed photos...so we can all see what I am working with.
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/09/08 5:01 pm

"The running gets much worse with the engine warm and chokes on..."

Another clue, but you always seem to have a way of putting a twist on your answer.

Because more of the gasoline is being atomized as the motor warms, a rich mixture will always cause the bike to run worse as the bike warms up. This will happen with either the chokes on or off. Of course the symptom would be greater if the chokes are on!

Now, what are you talking about when you say "chokes on?"

We haven't done 131 posts to find out you are running with your chokes on, have we? Hope not! frown

john
Posted By: Blapper

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/09/08 5:18 pm

John said:

"We haven't done 131 posts to find out you are running with your chokes on, have we? Hope not!"

That was my second point John.

My first point (I understand the idea of how it works) is that any carb induced richness will be improved by the weakness caused by the dropping fuel level, not just one in particular. I agree that it does point towards carbs rather than electrical, but that is all.

Sorry if my previous post was difficult to understand.

Blapper redwine
Posted By: Jamie Boud

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/09/08 5:34 pm

I've been following this thread(s) since the beginning and don't really have anything useful to add, but I just had to say this: The suspense is killing me!!
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/09/08 6:51 pm

John, saw tells me the plugs are equally sooted. With all the new parts in the carbs I want to see chokes rods. I suggested to remove the linkage to insure the jets are closed off. But we know the later rods have a longer brass body and don't seal right. I am still waiting for that info.
Saw has progressed with some electrical work which is correcting the POs mess. I am still convinced you are correct - it is right in front of our faces. It may be one or a few little things but we are close. Last test he said it ran better.
So I am looking at
1) Float needles/bad floats
2) choke rods
3) obscure electrical "something" like a bad ground, component drawing to much current, something failing with heat.
But I hadn't thought about cracked carb body.
So what fails when hot? Rectifier, amp, coil? Is it his single coil? That would explain both plugs fouling the same. I have to look and see if I have two 6v coils I cans send for a test.
It could be my turn to eat crow.
Solve before we hit page 4.
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/09/08 6:51 pm

chokes on = to choke the carb ..

cold start...raise the choke plunger..bike warms..close the chokes..plunger goes down..

if the bike is warm and is at idle and pull down on the choke lever..raising the choke plunger...the bike runs worse..there is smoke

no i am not running with the chokes on : )

_
ugh i should probably start a new thread (john let me know if i should start a separate electronic thread)

here are the connections i have in my headlight (link below)

..those of you that are good with wiring and know there way around a wiring diagram...please check it out...

1979 T140E

i know this not a stock configuration..but can anyone see anything that doesn't make sense

http://i37.tinypic.com/2hrmxoy.jpg
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/09/08 7:03 pm

I want this bike in my garage for a weekend.
Posted By: highway

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/10/08 12:46 am

Yes, this post has taken a life of it's own, and it is just what the forum needed. It is the sharing of knowledge, experience, and opinions, (feathers and all) that make this forum work.
Far better than "What color should my bike be" "Who has the best prices for spokes" and Where can I buy gaskets that won't leak". I'd personaly would rather see this post go to 5 pages with the solution...than 100 posts of the other.
To sawtooth: your bike truely is A PLUG FOULING ANTI SOCIAL TURD.......for now Rick
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/10/08 12:56 am

tulsa steve: i have coils and can get them locally..cool..thank you
this would not be an impossible thing to accomplish..it would take some rigging but its doable

as far as the other suggestions..once i get thru with the electrical i will be jumping back on the carbs ASAP

with that said

i wish someone could tell me how they would wire a 1979 T140E ...without a pilot...without a pilot/headlight switch..so that when the ignition is on..the headlight is always on..

this would be a big help in the immediate future...i need to know the correct way to accomplish this..so i can compare it what he did....

looking at the wiring diagram(s) i can guess...but there has to be a correct way to do it

i HAVEN'T forgotten the carbs and i can't wait to apply both yours and johns suggestions

but i digress..regarding:

1. i can tell you that the floats are good..not only by visual inspection (looked for obvious holes etc..but i filled those bowls with water and they rose to the correct levels and ..floated

the needles..were "decent"..again both floats are bad?? both needles are bad...and they both are so bad that they cause equal fouling??

i am not ruling this out...you guys have the experience

i should have sent my carbs to you or john to tweak and test on a fully functional bike..while i fight with the wires

(ok that was homer simpson moment..doh!!)

2. chokes...i promise they will be one of the first things i remove after i take off the carbs (again) but i can tell you that i ordered from BO..and i used the numbers from my parts book..the part numbers match..i ordered the complete enricher assembly (not that means anything)

3. electrical: as you know..i am on it!! : )) i wish i had another ignition switch! the chop shop only had switches with three poles...isn't there something compatible out of ford pinto or something!!

(should have fed ex'd the carbs, needles, slides out to john or steve......they could've put them on bikes that weren't cursed..why!!)

incisor
Posted By: Mark Z

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/10/08 2:16 am

I think it's a bad idea to wire the headlight so that it's always on with the keyswitch. There will inevitably come a time when you need to get the bike started with a low battery, and you will want to be able to turn off the headlight to get as much power as possible to the ignition circuit.
Posted By: Florida TR6

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/10/08 2:21 am

Quote:
[QUOTE] .those of you that are good with wiring and know there way around a wiring diagram...please check it out...
i wish i had another ignition switch! the chop shop only had switches with three poles...isn't there something compatible out of ford pinto or something!!
I'm the last guy to provide advice, but if you have nasty wiring (mine was horrible) and want something cheap and easy to install, I used MAP's so-called "SIMPLE" wiring diagram provided in their parts catalog, bought a 70s-era Harley Sportster ignition switch, hooked everything up as single point ground as per Professor Whatly's GAMBA site, and haven't had a problem since. Even I could do it -- must be simple bigt
Posted By: Florida TR6

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/10/08 2:40 am

P.S. I did away with the bogus fuse holder and instead used a 20-amp circuit breaker that if blown (hasn't happened yet) is supposed to reset after a brief cool down. Used industrial Velcro to mount it under the seat.
Posted By: JTsmks

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/10/08 3:06 am

(reprinted from Hanes 650 & 750 2 valve unit twins) pg 207, chapt 9 the 1975 to 1983 models

46 Ignition/lighting switch 149 SA - operation

1. This switch is located in the warning lights console and its key positions are as follows:

Key fully anti-clockwise - Pilot, tail and insrutment light (parking). Key may be removed

1st position clockwise - All electrical systems off. Key may be removed

2nd position clockwise - Ignition and electrical accessories on. Key locked in switch

Fully clockwise - All systems (including lights) on. Key locked in switch

On export models for the USA and Canada, with the switch in the 2nd position clockwise, the electrical accessories only are switched on. The ignition is switched on when the switch is moved to the fully clockwise position. The system is otherwise identical.

2. Note that there is no emergency start position. The machine will start with the key turned to the "ignition" position, even with a flat battery.
Posted By: Nick

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/10/08 4:31 am

This is getting silly. Ditch the carbs and try some others.

I had a Mikuni once that I could only fix by throwing it away. Problem solved! Casting flaws within the carb body are not fixable.
Posted By: JTsmks

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/10/08 10:56 am

So your "assuming" that ST has casting problems within both carbs? Now that is "silly". I think people here are genuinely trying to help this chap get a non-sorted PO nightmare sorted. It's really kind of what this board is all about if you think about it. Throwing the carbs away would be the silly thing to do and would serve only to make ST's pockets less full.
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/10/08 4:32 pm

JT i don't think he was serious and sometimes new is better...but..in this case...i don't think the carbs are shot..i am not saying that there isn't the possability of broken casting etc...but i didn't notice anything..then again i wasn't looking

plus, i would think if a broken casting was at fault then there would be more issues than just fouling plugs..but i am certinly not ruling out cracked or broken castings

i think what we have here is a genuine hunk of pooh..where the issue is the sum of a variety of iproblems (ie carbs, electrics, voodoo)

need to stay focused

i plan on testing and working on the ignition switch this evening...and dig into the harness...and sort out and fix the ground in the headlight
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/10/08 5:24 pm

Reference to broken casting was to illustrate why you cannot "leave any stone unturned" when looking for problems like these.
Posted By: Blapper

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/10/08 5:32 pm

Hey S-t,

Just thinking about how many plugs you have bought,have you thought about getting your plugs soda blasted?

Just a little thing.

Blapper redwine
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/11/08 2:39 am

John and Tulsa Steve the care packages arrived today. Thank you very much..I havn't had a chance to officially sit down with the contents..but everything arrived safely and i can't wait to get started.

But its going to be a couple days.

Tonights work included ivestigating the ignition switch and wiring...and suffice it to say..whomever wired this bike (ie former owner) should be forbidden from ever using a tool for the remainder of his life.

The good news is that its a reasonably new wiring harness..but he manged to ignore the wiring diagram..

yes, the bike runs (sort of) and yes the lights work etc etc...but why not folllow the wiring diagram?? He must have thoght he was so clever and thought so highly of his own abilities that he didn't need the assitance of some silly diagram

i have it under control..i just need to take my time, sort it out and wire it accordingly

my biggest fear at this point is that he wired it the way he did for some specific reason....that i have yet to discover


sorry for the delay
Posted By: highway

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/11/08 2:41 am

On the 27th posting on the original "float level" question. sawtooth said after a 15 minute open road test, the plugs showed some signs of carboning the insulators were a medium dark brown! Hard riding (More throttle and more heat) bike ran cleaner
on the first post of the Update thread Saw said the right carb came to life the right plug was reads nearly dead on. (The left was overflowing and rich.)
The only times Ive seen a reasonably jetted bike run THAT rich was due to reversion pushing a fog of gas out of the carb mouth then sucking it back in causing missing and eight stroking before clearing itslf with more revs. That doesn't appear to be the case here.
Thinking back though I've had more problems tuning concentric carbs on T140s with 1 3/4" pipes than Ive had with the same pipes and carbs on T120s. The late head may complicate tuning even more.
Does ANYONE know of a late T140e running clean with large open pipes?????
Then again maybe its the chokes!?
TOTAL POSTS 224 and counting. Still short of the "post a picture of your Triumph thread".Rick
Posted By: highway

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/11/08 3:54 am

I was just wondering "But what would R F Whateley say ???????
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/11/08 1:02 pm

And lets not forget the other major modication to the hardware...new bore, rings and pistons (040)..what effect does that have on the system..combined with open exhausts etc.

Probably minor..but its still not stock

My money is on electrics
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/11/08 2:18 pm

Rick:

I think RF is the only smart one on the Forum. The fact that he hasn't said anything speaks volumes. Sometimes you realize that no amount of information will help or there isn't enough time in the day to make someone a British motorcycle mechanic.

Now I will give it too SW... he seems to have what it takes, but RF has a job, a wife, a family, a life...

Listen, for the most part you have given SW good advice! But look back at the first bit of advice you gave about the location of the pilot and blanking jet. The response spoke volumes to me.

Here in lies the problem: not only do you have to diagnose the carburetor (which at this point might not be the problem at hand), but you have to educate the owner. Oh, and he has a local "expert" who you cannot talk to to see if he is giving good advice.

But wait, although you have been giving good advice, like me you are learning new things every day. I only stepped in when the discussion got off track. The bit about the N5 plugs.

But wait again, even though I was able to produce an original document from Brian Jones, Triumph chief engineer, written to the US distributor in California, there are still people who either cannot understand, or choose not to believe the T140E motors ran cooler than earlier models. This one fact alone COULD have been SW's problem.

As far as: "Does ANYONE know of a late T140e running clean with large open pipes?????" Of course you can run a T140 with MKII carbs and straight pipes. It is done every weekend on dirt tracks around the country. It has been done for years, and it should be able to be done on SW bikes... Just look at a previous thread from Steve where he lists the set-up he uses on his 1979 T140 with straight pipes. That post should have been the end of the story....

So when the problem "flies in the face of reality" = the bike should run with the jetting supplied by Steve, it is time to check reality.

Hang in there SW, and Rick keep learning and giving good the good advice your posts are known for...
john
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/11/08 11:21 pm

Boy can I ruin a party...

Oh well, my blood sugar must have been low...
:rolleyes:
John
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/12/08 12:09 am

John,
Well said. Get a candy bar.
But I go back to what you said before. It's right in front of us. Rick is learning rapidly. He is checking the wiring, following connections and switches. The care packages will tell the tale.
You can only rebuild carbs so many times and they are "rebuilt". Time to move on.
If it's not the choke rods - long as opposed to short, which have NOT been checked yet it's electrical. Bad amp, reluctor, switch, connection, ground etc.
I rebuilt the left carb on my 78T140 twice one evening many years ago. No change. Then I put in a new condensor and the problem was solved.
As to the Professor, RF said he's not a T140 guy. Again I think you are right. He has a life. Smart guy. But I bet he's following this thread and forming an opinion.
Rick will find it. Or I will when it's in MY garage laughing
Posted By: JTsmks

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/12/08 12:20 am

The nice thing is that when it's finally licked, ST will have a fine, well sorted machine that he will have confidence in and will know all the in's and out's of.
Posted By: JTsmks

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/12/08 1:26 am

John, your no party pooper, you simply made it go four pages! laugh


beerchug
Posted By: highway

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/12/08 2:48 am

John
Thank you for the encouragement, When I was 16 I had a AJS 600 twin cs. The tin primary covers were so banged up oil retention was impossable. So I decided that I would, oil the chain with an oil can and dissassemble the clutch and grease the plates? WHY? to provide needed lubrication Dummie!.... It was my first lesson on cause and effect.
The pilot jet position? Oh, I got it, But I was truly in awe of his experts credentials,........he and the crew did the top end, they have the experience.....I am confident they did the job right.... without them the this project would have been a complete lose..BUT they are not in the business of restoration and focus on early model engine overhauls and chops... and if it don.t work... replace it......

THEY JUST REBUILD ENGINES THEY DON'T "LIKE" TUNE THEM!!??.. Beautiful.. just beautiful..

ST... I LOVE YOU, MAN....Thanks for sticking with us,

To those following it... Read it again, from the start...the whole series.. the triligy of troubleshooting on acid... read the lines and in-between the lines. There are gems to be found. Good night.
Posted By: Junior

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/12/08 12:17 pm

Mr Tooth,I never heard the John H trick on plugging the choke jets on the MKIIs. clap
This sounds like the definitive exercise to comfirm
or eliminate a leaking enricher promblem?
Do this asap and clear up a lot of doubts.
JR....
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/13/08 12:44 am

ok...i am back from the wired hell

ok..everyone quick and get out their pencils and wiring diagrams for a 140E 1979 negative ground..email your friends who know wiring!! : ))

remember folks i don't have a kill switch or a pilot main switch
(i have nothing coming from the right hand switch)

please chime in if you see a problem or if what i did was wrong

FYI...when i call out terminal numbers i am only going by the number of the diagram...IMO he had the ignition switch connections all caddywhompus....i left it the way he had it..don't flame me..i am no expert..i can use a voltage meter, make a killer connection and have "some" experience reading wiring diagrams but again... no expert

READ SLOW..take deep breath...here we go

1. i found a dead slide on the ignition switch...the blue wire coming from the switch (terminal 4)...wasn't doin nothin with key full clockwise...it now has a live home on the switch (live home = terminal 3 - brown green terminal..yes both terminal should be occupied...but there was empt slot and it worked)

from the ignition switch blue goes to the headlight shell where it connects to blue yellow from the left switch

2. white yellow from the coil connects to white from the ignition switch* in the headlight...where it also connects to white from the right hand switch and white from oil warning light** and white form the neutral warning light**

*according to the wiring diagram..there should be two terminals with white wires existing the ignition switch (terminal 2)

off one terminal there are two whites wires that connect to the warning lights

off the other terminal..a single white wire which joins up with other white wires....

but thats not how HE did it..he used only one terminal

from the "white" terminal (terminal 2) former owner has two white wire existing the switch...one goes to the front brake switch and from there into the headlight shell where it joins up with the whites (one from the left switch and two from the warning lights...and lets not forget the white yellow)

the other white wire coming form the ignition switch goes to the back of the bike...going to rear brake switch and flasher unit

**according to the wire diagram the white for the above warning lights should be coming from a terminal off the switch..but thats not how POS former owner did it...i didn't know if it made a difference whether it was coming from terminal or coming from the white from the the front brake switch...IMO no it didn't

ok??

i buttoned it up, warmed, check timing, installed set of "cleaned" NGK B6ES (properly gapped)

and then took the turd for a 20 minute test tide...city (worked up to 3rd or 4th gears between stops) and then open road cruising...with periods of WOT

the bike ran much as it did on my last test ride...no misfires...good throttle response...IMO it ran the best...most even in the upper gear range and cruising speeds

here the latest plug read

left plug from left cylinder..right plug from right

http://i38.tinypic.com/1zr1bmq.jpg

http://i33.tinypic.com/2vacsjc.jpg

(junior..lectrics first then carbs ; ))

the tooth
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/13/08 1:00 am

oh yeah almost forgot..all the lectrics worked (high/low beam, signal lights, brake lights, etc etc...except the the neutral light...POS doesn't have the neutral switch wired...the wires are there...he just buried them in main loom..on a previous expedition into wired hell..i found them in the back of the bike...going no where....)

come to think of it...since i spent the last two days bomb proofing (ie making sure the connections were good...with no possibility of being shorted etc) that had anything and relation to white and more importantly white yellow....does anyone think i should dig those wires out ASAP?? they arn't out there just flopping around...they are secure
Posted By: Junior

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/13/08 1:37 am

Sure,to me the neutral indicator light is a
great feature on the `79...
Another thing you need the rubber cover that goes
on the key switch.If you get caught in the rain
a few more pins on the ignition switch will go bad.Don`t ask me how I know.

OK,back to the saga of the fouling plugs?
Hope we in nearing the finale?
JR....
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/13/08 1:46 am

I think the switch its self is either faulty or needs adjustment..i get no continuity from the wires off the neutral switch

Finale?? This turd will probably have sequels!!
Posted By: JTsmks

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/13/08 1:40 pm

My 68 Royal Enfield had an automatic neutral finder NOW that was helpful! ST glad to hear the bike is running better. My ignition switch was a PITA and caused me grief on the road.
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/13/08 4:13 pm

Runs better...but still fouling plugs..IMO not out of the woods. I purchased more plugs..if the weather breaks I will take the turd out for another shake down...

I havn't heard anything regarding my wiring?
Posted By: highway

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/13/08 11:39 pm

Saw
I had a feeling it was't cured when I saw the plugs, If the Enrichener jets are plugged as John suggested and baffles are installed as in Steves bike, there is little chance that it is anything but oil.
BUT if you are going out for a shakedown anyway, give us the plug chop we have been asking for. With your old plugs in ride to an road were you can ride at 60 /65 mph.,and at 30/35 with no stops for a few miles and room to pull over to change plugs.(we don't need to test the main jet).

The engine must be fully warmed up

Install new plugs

Run it for three miles, @ 1/2 thottle Kill the ignition and pull over

Install new plugs and repeat @ 1/4 throttle

Then install the original plugs and return home . Drive the last mile or so like there is a cop on your tail, idleing at stop lights etc.

After idleing for a minute blip the throttle and check for oil burning. Smoke shows up best at night in the headlights of the car behind you at a stop light. Rick
Posted By: JTsmks

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/14/08 12:33 am

You should abandon all hope and pitch the thing off your roof! MKIIs, OIF, Lucas Rita...good gawd man...what were you thinking!!!!

Sorry just couldn't resist! laugh laugh laugh
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/14/08 12:43 am

Plug chops will have to wait until tomorrow..the weather didn't clear and i discovered that a weld on one of exhaust spigots cracked...i have to make sure that it's secured before i go anywhere..SHOULD be tomorrow (yes the bike is cursed)

But in the mean time I would like to talk about the coil situation. As you all know I am running a modern coil with the Rita amp.

There is a test in my work shop manual TEST 4: Amplifier Switching.

The test is meant for a two coil setup and I am curious if the test would still be applicable for a modern 12v coil.

The test states:

"Voltmeter connected as in Test 3D (B/W off negative terminal of coil 2...the positive lead from the VOM is connected to the negative terminal of coil 2 and the negative lead from theVOM goes to ground). Crank the engine. The VOM needle should now ocillate between zero volts and 12V, confirming the coil primary circuit is being switched on and off by the amplifier unit"

Would this test apply to a modern coil as well?

I tried it..and there was no ocilation only constant 11v+ (battery is a lil low)

confused

(oh..fyi. don't laugh i chipped a tooth : (

chipped tooth
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/14/08 2:02 am

The single coil fires both cylinders a the same time. And since there is only one coil for both plugs I would expect this result - although the electric field should collapse - I think. SO, I guess I don't know :rolleyes:
----
But, as John Healy said, "it's right in front of us". Yes it is!!!

SO...

The first rules of Professor Whatley:

1) Timing. If the timing is wrong nothing else is
right. You checked that.

2) FRESH GAS. When was the last time you put fresh
gas in the tank???

Drain the tank AND THE CARBS. Put a gallon or two of FRESH, 91 octane, gasoline in it. Modern gas is only good for a few weeks at best and then breaks down. The alcohol collects water.
The carbs are rebuilt. Enough of that.
You have chased the electrics. Enough of that too for the moment.
Let's try fresh fuel. It takes $8.00 and 10 minutes.
I just took the 79 out a little while ago. It started great, roared to life, and ran like a scalded dog. But then began spitting and popping.
I know the electrics and settings are correct. But it is OLD gas.
Let us know.
I know RF is watching this.
Aren't you, RF? wink
Posted By: JTsmks

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/14/08 2:15 am

Steve, I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ but I ride my 79 about once maybe twice a month at most and it has the same gas in it for the better part of a year and I get no "spitting" and "popping". Plus I live in ultra humid Florida. He's pretty much tore down his carbs a few times I seriously doubt he has "old" gas in them.
Posted By: highway

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/14/08 3:26 am

Steve A dual coil can go weak on one side, only seen it on Japanese fours. so your right it is a possibility it could be, but it has such a good spark I would would think not.
I have a feeling the new gas we have here may hide oil consumption smoke more than the old gas. I've pulled heads from bikes lately that barely smoked at , yet found wet combustion chambers and valve pockets with oil puddled in them.

WHO KNOWS? MAYBE, WE CAN BLAME the "CREW"

WE ARE GOING TO BEAT THIS??? RIGHT???
Good night Rick
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/14/08 9:37 am

The turd gets fresh hi octane once every couple weeks. IMO it uses too much fuel vx. the amount of miles...warm ups, timing checks and 20 minute test rides two or three times...should not burn thru most of a tank. Then again, older bike vs. modern octane vs smallish tank

So, should i leave the lectrics alone and move on???? Should I rig the old coils? (who knows if they work...plus it will take some time and rigging...the current coil is in the front...the coil tray is out...yadda yadda yadda...i can do it..and am willing but it will take time)

Oil consumption: the turd is not using oil...the compression test were very good...the pipes are filled with black dry soot/chalk dust..i pulled the pipe from that spigot with the cracked weld and there was no wetness inside the head (yes i know not a definitive test) just more dry black chalky soot

My life is filled with dry, flat black, chalky soot and spark plugs : )

and now i get to go to the dentist..I can't wait

Chip
Posted By: JTsmks

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/14/08 3:36 pm

ST, when I ran 12 volts on my BSA w/Boyer (PO did it not me) spark was real strong yet it would foul plugs. "looking" at spark and actually having it right and enough to keep the plug clean is a different matter all together. What I do know is that electronic ignition performs best with two 6 volt coils and when I ran mine with 12 volt coils she'd foul plugs regularly till I found the error and switched out to two 6volts. I'd overturn the stone and put the 6 volts on. It doesn't need to be pretty just on and hooked up to do the job and tell the tale.
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/14/08 3:51 pm

Well first I either have to come up with couple of coils that are 100% functional or test the ones that came in the parts box.

Plug chops tonight..with coils as is

and then 6 volt coils tomorrow or the next.

Can we all agree?? looking for a course of action : )

dentist tomorrow (that i know)
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/14/08 5:06 pm

ok. one of my 6v coils were junk..or at least the big chunk out of the side of the housing....tells me thats its junk : (

and they sold the last set coil from the chop shop

shoot me now
Posted By: bob benoit

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/14/08 7:19 pm

Mr. Tooth ... I don't write to this board often due to my lacking computer skills but after seeing the picture of your spark plugs I feel compelled to write. I've seen those plugs before ... actually I have a box of them. You see I also have a 1979 T140E that used to be a turd. Everything was spot on but it still fouled plugs. I finally after many many days of adjustments, rebuilds and beer changed out the carb. enrichining units with bar mounted cable operated ones. Turd no more ...
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/14/08 7:32 pm

thank you bob..welcome aboard...after tonight's plug chops (and not having the hardware to move on to 6v coil tests) i will be pulling the carbs and taking pictures
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/14/08 7:46 pm

"I finally after many many days of adjustments, rebuilds and beer changed out the carb. enrichining units with bar mounted cable operated ones. Turd no more ... "

The chokes can be rulled out by installing a blanking plug 2622/142 in place of the choke jet. This will quickly and once and for all rule out whether the chokes are causing the problem! It is a lot cheaper than buying a set of cable operated chokes.
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/14/08 8:18 pm

I'm still waiting to hear about the chokes. I think I mentioned that a few pages ago.
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/15/08 12:13 am

can't do everything at once...carbs come off for another exploratory..then i wouldn't be able to road test the electrical fixes...the electrical fixes were completed this weekend (fingers crossed ; ) and tonight was plug chop night...

electrical problems are stabilized

so, here is what some of you have dying to see and those are the plug chops (as outlined by junior)

1. plug chops 1 and 4: original carbon fouled plugs from yesterdays test ride used for chop1 (idle until warm and down the street at low speeds to parking lot) where the headlight fell out.

pulled the plugs and they were completely carbon fouled (and re-installed the headlight)..

in fact , the plugs were so fouled that the left plug in the picture is a replacement done in the parking lot because it was so fouled it was misfiring..i changed the plug to a cleaned plug...did a few laps around the parking lot and chopped. the same plugs that were used for this first test (warm idle) were later used for the drive it like you stole it phase of chop 4.

after the idle warm chop the plugs were completely carbon fouled..and here is picture of those same plugs aftre a very short short drive it like you stole it chop

http://i35.tinypic.com/2nlbsph.jpg

after installing the headlamp and a brand new set of plugs i went on to plug chop 2

2. plug chop two was driving at 30-40 mph for 3-4 minutes..i chopped and here are those results

http://i36.tinypic.com/2d2c7y9.jpg

after plug chop 2 installed another fresh set of plugs and got up to cruising speed of 50-60+ (ie chop 3)

3. i was able to hold that speed for approx 1-2 minutes until the exhaust pipe fell off.

i immediately chopped and pulled over

having wired up the pipe with a piece of coat hanger that i found on the side of the road..i continued with plug chop 3.

i held the 50-60 mph speed for another few minutes and chopped

here are the results

http://i36.tinypic.com/2nqsm51.jpg

i re-installed the original plugs

4. ride it like you stole it phase with the original set of plugs (see results in chop 1) i wasn't able to keep the bike at WOT ...any attempt caused misfires and the bike ran erratically

so there you have it

i need to fix the exhaust
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/15/08 12:52 am

oh yeah..my new helmet for the year (fulmer) broke
Posted By: Swan

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/15/08 1:07 am

Don't ask what else can go wrong.....
Posted By: highway

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/15/08 3:57 am

Yes, it true you can't due everything at once, but you have to do things in a logical order to get a logical conclusion.
The logical thing to do is eliminate to chokes as a possible source of the carbon, The lower the throttle slide is in the carb the more "SUCTION" is exerted on the enrichening circuit. If they close but don.t completely
seal the mixture is richened mainly at idle and low speed. Plug the freakin enrichening circuit.

Your wife????........DOES SHE EVER GET THE URGE TO SLAP YOU?

i'VE GOT A HEADACHE..... GOODNIGHT
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/15/08 10:18 am

I definitely agree that this nightmare must be approached systematically. And basically that is what I was trying to say ie one thing at a time.

Logically, eliminating the electrical was the first thing. Now we can focus on the carbs. But whatever happens with the carbs won't mean much unless I have the exhaust on the bike to test those changes.

My plan is to get working on the exhaust and pulling the carbs (and getting picts posted).....and going to the dentist and mowing the lawn and cleaning out the basement...taking the dog to the vet..and and and and ; )

My wife?? oh yeah I forgot about her...she isn't talking to me amd i am sure I will get yet another dirty look when I tell her I am buying a set of p=clamps so i can get that exhaust back on.

hey i managed to get the ladder out and change a light bulb..she should be happy right??
Posted By: highway

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/15/08 11:47 am

254 posts... and still counting....stay tuned for page 5,
Posted By: Peter Jones

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/16/08 10:58 pm

Hi,
Not read all the posts so what follows may have been said before but here goes... Been here before with my T140E. Runs fine now (touch wood, fingers crossed etc) on ordinary UK unleaded, runs better on "Super unleaded".

Didn't lick the problem until I backed off the ign. timing by 2 degrees. Went through all the carb mods (mine was originally set up as per US/EPA), new choke plungers, new needle jets (making sure they were cross-drilled) smaller choke jets (.25 to match pilot IIRC) and removing the "top hat" air jet. New HT leads (copper core) with non-resistive caps, changing from NGK to Champion, and finally a head-off decoke then a good thrashing through the gears once warmed up.

I believe it's a combination of things that build up to cause problems (modern petrol is very poor and causes more soot in carburated engines) I think it's well worth setting up right as these bikes run really well when in good fettle, and sound fantastic (I run peashooter/k&n to allow breathing)

Lucas Rita is fine. Make sure timig mark is accurate before strobing, and use another battery (ie not the bike's)

Ignition switch can be affected by vibration causing misfires (don't ask) :rolleyes:

Hope you get it sorted, if you can find one over there, a device called "Gunson's Colourtune" is worth its weight in gold, allowing accurate carb setup.

Good luck.
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/16/08 11:39 pm

ok folks..the moment you have all been waiting for...better late than never carb picts

step up and take a bow

(i am not saying that its the only issue..but i can see it)

http://i37.tinypic.com/sqjqu1.jpg
http://i33.tinypic.com/2jbjjmt.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/anhf6e.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/2j2yybp.jpg
http://i36.tinypic.com/4gcpi.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/q07q.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/2ljlund.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/1z2du7k.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/2lb2e5x.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/s2hf1s.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/2m64meu.jpg
Posted By: highway

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/16/08 11:52 pm

Bottom of new plunger looks pristine in the picture, no trace of seating.
Reverse plug and pilot jet.
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/17/08 1:01 am

Have you used the plug gages to check the needle jet?
Posted By: highway

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/17/08 1:14 am

Viton looks pristine because the nose holding the viton appears to have a contact ring around it, and is larger in width.
Posted By: NZbiker

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/17/08 1:19 am

Sorry you may have mentioned this
I had all sorts of trouble one plug fouling all the time backfire etc,etc I checked fuel.carbs off back on.ingnition electrics you name it
In the end it was one of the throttle slides
was hung up I think I had jamed one at some stage I sorted it out and all the trouble went away
I received heaps of great help from the guys on here.so the friggin around was not totally wasted as it increased my knowledge 10 fold
Hell I thought I knew everything (joke)


Cheers

John
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/17/08 1:31 am

highway: don't the plungers look different?
http://i35.tinypic.com/2m64meu.jpg

too me it looks ever so slightly longer (plunger) and it has a different profile....is this just wear?? or if there is a difference..doesn't it matter??

i confirm there is a contact ring

john: no i am sorry i havn't...i will sit down with everything tomorrow afternoon

sorry for the delay..not enough hours in the day..

i only took picts of the left carb...parts are identical..if further picts are required (of parts or other carbs) please let me know

broken tooth
Posted By: highway

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/17/08 1:34 am

Well tooth whadda see. Your eyes are better than ours and the parts are there.


I had a tough, long, hot, sweaty day..... I've got 2 weeks of work to get done in one week... and then, I though of what it might feel like to be Mrs Sawtooth, day after day after day and I immediatley felt better, Rick
I STILL LOVE HA MAN! but it's guys like NZbiker we are doing this for.
Posted By: highway

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/17/08 1:46 am

I TOLD YOU SO!
Posted By: az-idea

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/17/08 8:23 am

We're looking at new and relic plungers..?..yeah,theyre different..the new should work despite differently radiused butt end..the relic is clearly a wreck where the seal should be and would appear to be a culprit as far as mystery rich running...but I believe the minor partner in this crime scene will prove to be rich pilot..both contributing,but..after seeing that plunger..I'd say youve got the main bugger in this saga of venal and epic sooting!!..the renegade chimmney sweeper and His Midnite getaway Pilot Moll are Made!!Horray for victorian crime busters everywhere!!..I Hope..
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/17/08 9:42 am

yes, new and relic..but the new has been in use for several weeks...with no change.
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/17/08 12:55 pm

Az, I got caught by the new and old plunger until I thought about it. Mr.Tooth replaced the plungers a while ago and he was just showing you the old one next to the new one.

Yes Az, he has a set of 15 and 20 pilots in the bag and should put the 15 in and try it.

Also he has a new .105, .106, and a .106 with .037" bleed holes. I think I need to organize a .105" with .037" bleed holes as he hasn't made the switch to the non-EPA jetting. And a blanking plug so he can once and for all block off ALL FLOW of gasoline to the chokes so we can prove or disprove if the chokes are causing this problem. This would have been the first thing I would have done so I can eliminate one soure of the problem and concentrate on the carburetor jetting itself.

We have been getting good reports from people who we have had enlarge the cross drill hole a thousandths or so. Got a call yesterday from a dealer who opened up the hole to .037" and saw a marked improvment. That said he was experiencing a little richness and an occasional fouling, nothing like what we are seeing here.

Mr. tooth's fouling almost looks like someone is pouring raw gasoline into the mouth of the carburetor and nothing one can see fom the pictures can show that. Only examining and measuring the bits and testing at the throttle opening in question can do that.

By the way that pilot jet hole looks pretty big for this application. So please get out that screw driver and change the pilot jet before Az looses it all together...
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/17/08 4:18 pm

so what is my assignment before the next test??

measure needle jets, remove the top hats? install new pliots (15 or 20?), block chokes?

reverse the plug and the pilot jet? (i thought it was best in the bowl?)

lets do all this in the right order...so there is a clear, systematic resolution

standing by..over
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/17/08 5:30 pm

I don't think moving the choke jet to the 2 stroke position will help in this case.

15 please
Posted By: tomterrific

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/17/08 5:56 pm

I have #15 pilots and #25 enrichment jets. I'm not sure how far you have gotten toward the Euro jetting but remove the Air Correction jets too. The original #50 jets are worthless for anything so solder them up as plugs if you like.

I mentioned somewhere that your problem may be entirely or partly due to the too large straight through pipes. If you can get a 10 or 12 inch smaller diameter pipe into the end you will have higher performance, probably. Expand the ends of a 1 3/8" to fit. Also a bolt/pin put into the end of your pipes will help break up the reversion wave but I'm not fond of this bodge for big straight through pipes. A reversion cone at the port is a good idea too. The pipes will still give all the excessive noise you desire with these mods. Mufflers work well also.

Weird one. Have your floats gotten heavy with modern gas mixtures? Floats sink and raise the fuel level in the bowl. I would not freak about this but I'd keep it in mind.

Tom Graham
Posted By: Peter Jones

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/17/08 8:09 pm

Aren't T140E's amazing ?

The MK2 Amals should be a better carb than Mk1s, and with the breathing sorted should work very well, however......

There's definitely a common theme here wink

In almost all the threads where this is discussed, it has not been straightforward.

My money's on the choke plungers. If you haven't already, rigging up cable operation rather than lever might be a good idea for choke operation, with a bit of free play. I don't trust the lever mechanism.
Posted By: JTsmks

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/17/08 8:25 pm

My original enricher's and lever have worked on my 79D since I bought the bike. Are you saying I shouldn't trust them? Damn, all this time I thought they were trustworthy! I'll go smack them with a hammer next. How dare they work fine in all this time, they were unaware they are supposed to be troublsome...please don't anyone tell them. wink
Posted By: Peter Jones

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/17/08 8:29 pm

laughing I don't trust them cos they look at me funny wink


You must be in their good books laughing
Posted By: az-idea

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/17/08 10:22 pm

..Well,I jumped on the chokes having missed the notification they had been collared,photo'd and fingerprinted already..Hmmm..Back to"gangs leader still at Large"..The Rich Girl Pilot..?..The"Fat Man"#50 enrichener is looking Guilty,too..But..Hmmm..Mr.Tooth Cant just go"plug Em"in the street vigilante style..so..for a Breather and Lateral thought..yes..on the note about those Big pipes which will need some form of induced"back pressure"..?..You want the Naked Two Cannon look and performance which will have you selecting inserts soon..no can openers please..the smooth 1 1\2"X 6"[1 3\4 flares for fit]..or,as I bodge with..the thumb screws at angle to flow[2" in from ends]..?...to be Cont.\...?..Chapter 13 is where the Bad guy finally gets caught,right..?..the rest will be easy..hang in there Mr.Tooth!!..
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/17/08 10:27 pm

plug gauges applied

current needle jets are .105 (snug...actually i felt a tiny tiny bit of friction..normal?)

next?
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/17/08 10:37 pm

A pair of 105" drilled to .038" cross hole and choke jet plugs in UPS
Posted By: highway

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/17/08 10:53 pm

Please confirm if the contact ring you see on the plunger is on the edge of the larger brass nose and that the viton pads are pristine, thanks Rick
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/17/08 11:42 pm

john:
understood..thank you!!

highway:
viton pads/tips = pristine (only contact ring)

plunger = i assume you mean enricher plunger? old vs. new??
(sorry..i am unclear) my guess is that you are referring to the rubber at the bottom of each plunger and whether or no they make contact or attach to the plunger body..if this is so..the answer is yes (old or new)

regarding the old..its not torn or torn away from the edge of the plunger

top hats: bell mouth off (too easy) in lower center there is ....what i assume to be ...the top hat (or where the top hat should be) how does it come out?? or is this not the top hat or is it out?? see link

http://i35.tinypic.com/xyfjl.jpg
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/17/08 11:47 pm

Ok, air jets is in place! If you take it out things run leaner.
Posted By: highway

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/18/08 12:01 am

What I thought I saw, or didn't see, was no contact of the viton pad on the seat (pristine) and that the larger brass nose may have bottomed out first.... Communication- the weak link Johns' plugs will tell ...... This turkey isn't going 6 pages
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/18/08 12:39 am

There is a contact ring on the viton pad.
Posted By: highway

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/18/08 1:34 am

QUOTE FROM PREVIOUS OWNER runs excellent "NEEDS ONLY OIL CHANGE AND PLUGS"...DO YOU STILL HAVE HIS ADDRESS?????I bet he's a divorce lawyer.....
Posted By: highway

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/18/08 1:59 am

........and your wife, his girlfriend duped you into marrying her to aquire your wealth, but they needed grounds????.....a Triumph motorcycle....At first she acts jealous, then annoyed, sometimes openingly hostile at the attention you give this Triumph...AND ...the britbike forum...IT"S AN ACT!!...They have their grounds!!!Right now he is in your garage messing with you wiring!!!! they are both in on it .,

WAKE UP MAN!
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/18/08 3:42 pm

no..he is just a weak lil man with a number inadequacies.

i think i have a picture of him and the bike.

we should start a new thread..."world's worst former owners" and post pictures

back to work! ; ))
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/18/08 11:50 pm

am i replacing the choke/starter jet with smaller size or should i i wait for the .038/.105 and choke jet plugs

awaiting my marching orders

mr. t
Posted By: tomterrific

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/19/08 9:53 pm

I'd put the #25 in the enricheners and the #15 in the pilot. Pull the air correction jets (top hats). You have the 3.5 slides in place? This is about as lean as you can get it on the bottom.

Do this if no one has a different idea.

Tom Graham
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/19/08 10:23 pm

"This is about as lean as you can get it on the bottom."

Tom, you can also vary the opening of the dross drilled hole in the needle jet. Mr T. should have a .105" needle jet with the .035" cross drilled hole opened to .038" in hand on Monday.
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/20/08 10:58 am

but once again the turd as thrown another curve ball!!!!

i have been working withe the left carb ,,,and not dug into the right..the plan being do one and then the other

saturday i spent my morning cleaning plugs and decided to break down the right carb,,remove top hat etc

long story short...comparing the right to the left...the hole in the seat looks slightly larger than the left and there appears to be scoring around the needle hole....i need to test

i guess it doesn't really matter as long as the needle is seating...right?

shoot me now

(update)

ok now i am getting confused...i triple checked the float levels using the upside down method...to test the needles to make sure they are seating correctly...i connected a couple test hoses and filled with water...

the water goes in the floats rise...the needles seat...no more water gets into the bowl...yippee

however...the float rises to .25" below the top edge of the bowl vs. .080" with the upside down method

which is correct?? i thought i had this ....mother ugh!!!!

(update)

tab method and fill method yield the same results

going to lower seat

(update)

ok...float level is as good as i am going to get it....i have set (heated, tapped)..tested...tested again..again..again..again..fill and tab method...

i have simulated a gravity feed with a funnel..held the damn thing...level..broke out the caliper...and its as good as i am going to get it

now unless some one tells me that the upside down method is somehow superior to to the fill tab method...then i am done setting float levels until the next bike

both needles appear to seat correctly and stop water/fuel flow...still concerend about the scaring around the needle hole..of course now made worse from heating at tapping/drift

but i have done the best i can...my only option is to send them to mr. john and let him fix them..

what a way to spend a sunday in the land of OCD

as i said at the beginning...shoot me now!!
Posted By: Jack Adams

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/20/08 6:33 pm

Tooth, I know you call it a turd,but you are working on a carb not a toilet so use gas not water. also the tab method is the most reliable as you can see what you are doing. Jack
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/20/08 6:42 pm

tested with both water and gas
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/20/08 10:26 pm

the cold start/enricher pilot of the right carb will not come out.

the head is trashed but was able to get screw driver on it and get it to turn but it will not come out (i even enlsited the help of the wife..who turned it for good twenty minutes...no comment ; ))

guessing...the threads are stripped

i applied heat...and gave it few good taps but its not going any where : (

the left starter/enricher pilot has been removed and not replaced (i am debating whether to plug with mr. johns upcoming arrival or do the #25's as tom suggested)

my guess is if the #50 pilot are a source of my woes....then there must be a way to plug that 50 and run with only one fully functional enricher...who needs two

right? wrong? indifferent? tap it/drill it out? leave it? replace the bowl? any suggestions (other than push the turd off the roof)
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/21/08 12:44 pm

What number is the carb? I think I have a spare body I will send you to try. We're too involved to let this go unresolved. Send me an email.
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/21/08 1:21 pm

no body..bowl
starter enricher pilot in wall of bowl
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/21/08 3:38 pm

OK - yes I am sure I have a bowl. e-mail the address and I'll send it out tomorrow morning. Are you going to owe me a beer or what?
beerchug
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/21/08 3:40 pm

many many beer
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/23/08 12:43 am

mr. john sent me looking for a connector between the rita and timing wires ..he explained that there should be a power connector at or near the rita (yep) and seperate connector for the wires going to the timing cover...this connector should be located under the tank...

this is what i found...well hidden under layers of tape

gee do ya think..this may cause a issue

http://i33.tinypic.com/501k6a.jpg
http://i36.tinypic.com/2hd74m1.jpg

i also decided to dig out the neutral wires from the main loom
Posted By: JTsmks

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/23/08 1:46 am

YIKES! eek I've stuck all along on the culprit being ignition related. I may still be wrong but I seriously think it is the bases for the fouling. The plug needs to be provided with the proper energy to clean itself during all phases of operation. The EI systems are great "if" all is up to snuff with wireing etc. I think RF just stated this on another thread.
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/23/08 3:11 am

I just got my 79 running after cr**ing out last Sunday. Dead in the garage. I mean DEAD.
It was the Rita Amp. I also rewired the connectors under the tank and a few others and it roared to life.
I was about to post this - did on the R&T site - about my amp. Then John beat me to the wiring.
Hope this solves it for you.
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/23/08 11:31 am

Two things tick me off about this..

one is the simple fact that this guy..who professed to have experience with wiring...( not to mention his job as computer hardware tech) could make such a mess out this..what a POS

the second is that i missed it...i didn't want to dig into the main loom since it looked untouched...once agin..it just proves to take the time..do it right and leave no stone unturned..

if it wasn't for johns casual notation on the subject..i wouldn't have gone looking

now, as far as this being the source of the problem:
i don't think its the source but definitely a contributing factor...all the tests that i ran showed that i was getting strong and regular spark...but this may help explain some of the inconsistancy i have been experiencing..

i am going to say this now to break the jinx..once i get this running right...with my luck..the engine will blow
Posted By: Junior

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/26/08 5:12 pm

Kind of quiet here?
How`s the turd doing?
Don`t tell me you gave up?
Let`s finish the exocism,kick the devil out of those MKIIs.....
laughing JR....
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/26/08 10:09 pm

Actually, I found more wiring issues...so i was delayed.

The good news I managed to get all buttoned up today and test the latest carb modifications.

First the carbs ingredient list

Both carbs: 3.5 Slides, #15 Pilot Jets, .105 drilled .038 needle jets, 2c3 needles (set to center notch), Top hats remove.

Left carb: starter/choke jet = blanking plug.

Right carb: starter/choke jet - #25 jet

The results were unexpected. It took several kicks before the turd finally decided to fire. I gave the turd gas and nothing. Finally, I used a screwdriver to open up the choke on the right side and it finally fired.

The left carb immediately started pssing gas from BOTH tubes. Pssing ...not a lil a lot! Gas was also seeping out the bowl gasket

There was so much gas that I can't be sure but I belive the right carb was also pssing gas from the overflow tube...

I wasn't too happy with condition of the seats ...however, on the bench the needles were seating.

I have a couple of shells of buckshot!!

Mr.t
Posted By: Peter Jones

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/26/08 10:21 pm

Stick with it - it'll be well worth it.
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/26/08 10:51 pm

I've had all I can stands, I can't stands no
more!! mad
Put the f***** carbs, and the parts, in a box and send them to me.
( or maybe to John? laughing )
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/27/08 1:45 am

I am thinking that sending the carbs on a road trip might be the best solution...you and John will have to fight it out. Most of the parts are Johns but if i recall (steve) has the open exhaust

I am going to give the turd another try tomorrow...I tapped on the bowls (with butt end of my over and under) so may it might of done something...i doubt it

My guess..its the seats..they looked like sht
Posted By: Blapper

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/27/08 6:47 am

I'll stump up for the stamps s/t!

Blapper redwine
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/27/08 6:35 pm

well before we get to carried away:

i went out this a.m. and fired the bike...same condition...pssing gas for the left carb and seepage from both bowl gaskets (left & right)

i know the left bowl gaseket to be kind of finicky ...so decided to double check and make sure it was not interfering with the float operation...back togther it went and no change

i went back and checked the float level.... 060"-080" but i thought..what the heck raise it a hair and voila no more pssing!

did the same to the right and no more seepage

i am willing to admit human error...but unless my eyes deceive me...the float were set correct...maybe turd carbs just need a slightly lower float levels

in the process of tweaking the float levels..i compared the left and right seats...and the left seat has noticeable large hole...i don't know what this means (other than another part which needs to be replaced : (

once that problem was solved..

i fired the bike and checked the timing..timing checked out

the bike idles high (3,000 RPM) and there appears to be some backfiring and gas vapor spitting back from the carbs...small amount when i flicked the throttle...

i started the pilot air screws at 1.5 turns out on each side...the left carb runs smoothest at .5 turns out from seat and the right appears to be good at 1.5...however these were only initial results and i think i should run it a lil more and adjust further

i still havn't ruled out FedEx

Mt.T


and
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/27/08 7:13 pm

Quote:
i am willing to admit human error...but unless my eyes deceive me...the float were set correct...maybe turd carbs just need a slightly lower float levels
I have found with the MKIIs it's easy to set too high. The float hits the body and never shuts off the valve.
Sounds like you may need to flatten the bowl surface as well down the road. Sand paper taped on a table saw and then gently flatten the bowls. But the float level may cure this.
Also sounds like a clogged idle circut on the left. Or the slide is high enough to be catching
two circuts at once - maybe - ? It's a thought.
You're almost there.
We'll have it fixed in less than 300 posts!! laughing

Good man, Blap!! He can't afford the postage after all the parts! laughing
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/27/08 8:16 pm

I can't afford sht!!

I am off from work this week!

Told the wife I was hittin the road with Amal MKII's for the promise land (Middleboro MA)

she pouted and said.."without me?" and then smarten up and said "with what money!"...

I suggested that I take "Nessy" (emerald green Sprint 900)..same response...so much for that adventure

I wish there was some place closer that was sympathetic to the cause...with both parts and experience

Tulsa Steve...what about going up another pilot jet?? I am not ruling out blocked...but in this test I have gone to the low side of the extreme for the pilot jet (ie #15) would it be prudent to try a #20?

ST
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/27/08 8:37 pm

My concern is not prudency. Like I said, they will idle with 15,20 or 25s.
My concern is imbalance. Why is one adjusting so much differently than the other? IMHO they should be closer than they are. Check your e-mail.
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/29/08 9:26 pm

update: the turd is still fighting me every step of the way...test rides...each day and each test ride yields a plertha of new and exciting challenges (who am i kidding the f'in thing is a pain in balls...excuse my colorful ****ogy)

with johns guidance...i have gone from rich to lean...a positive step (currently running #15 pilot, .105/.035 needle jet, 2c3 needles - center clip, 3.5 slides)

but..my bowls continue to seep gas (a few taps with the mallet appears to help that condition...only to have it return later) i have not found the cause for sticking floats...(only the obvious..the seats are shot and the needles must not be seating perfectly...)

on the plus side..with steves help...i have the pipes secured enough to continue testing

but as mentioned at the beginning of this post..each day is something new and different...i installed baffles...but in return the turd thanked me by exposing a leak in the rocker cover gasket (exhaust)...so not only do i have seeping gas...i now have oil spewing out....all nuts and bolts were tight/snug..my guess is ol'turd didn't like the reverse wave of the baffles and in the process exposed another weakness

it hasn't won yet

mr. t
Posted By: Peter Jones

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/30/08 10:57 am

Have you tried asking it nicely ? laughing


If your exhaust valves are a bit slack in the guides, the inlets may be too - this won't help carburation. Hope it's not this, but bear it in mind.
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/30/08 3:05 pm

The bowl is on the way. You should have it in a few days.
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/30/08 4:46 pm

Ditto Steve...
found a pair in an old racing box.
j
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 07/30/08 5:41 pm

John - hang on to them I may need them. I had only the one bowl for two spare bodies. Check e-mail.
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/01/08 12:04 am

after removing the rocker box...i found the following

http://i36.tinypic.com/2pocj0n.jpg

what you see there is the a crack in the top of the left exhaust valves..i assume that these might be the orginal valves

which means new valves and new guides (i managed to scavenge new valves locally...but only one guide..the current guides were sloppy with the new valves)..and of course everything gets to go to the machine shop

and since the head was off...here are shots of the piston heads and all their disgust (if someone sees something else..wrong..just send scotch..maybe ignornace is bliss)

http://i38.tinypic.com/2r6crdk.jpg

left piston
http://i34.tinypic.com/2zgvkgj.jpg

right psiton
http://i33.tinypic.com/fnwodl.jpg

dogs
http://i33.tinypic.com/1zfk582.jpg

(henry in the background, vera in the foreground, shy wife off stage)
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/01/08 12:26 am

Oh my... frown
Posted By: Ginge

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/01/08 12:47 am

Sawtooth,

The only comments I would make are;

a) your dogs have no pupils.

b) The 2 clean spots on the pistons appear to suggest incomplete combustion but I don't know much more than that. Dry sooty black is fuel, Wet sticky black is oil is that right?

c) Valves and guides would be a great start.
Posted By: Tony Eastham

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/01/08 2:44 am

doggone, this is interesting. I have a 79 "special" and always used ngk b8es, before the bike sat in the barn for 15 years, but now it fouls the plugs within 30 miles. Using b6es or n5 now, and very little missing. I should add that I need rings, oil consumptions is excessive. The funny thing is that oil consumption was bad before I parked it, and I always used b8es or n3, hmmm.
Posted By: Peter Jones

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/01/08 9:47 am

Seeing as the head is off anyway....


Might as well have the ports worked on a little. (they shouldn't need much, just cleaning the casting marks, smoothing etc.)
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/01/08 7:46 pm

Actually I was thinking incomplete combustion EXCEPT
where the hot spots are. Are we seeing clean areas corresponding to plug position?
* The rings and pistons are fairly new,
* the compression is good - 145+ both sides -
* the carbon buildup has been VERY fast
* a valve stem is cracked.
I want the oil drained and filtered. I want to see if there's metal in it.
I know the head is being done. I know one guide/valve was bad.
I am thinking rings not seated yet. Don't forget to hone the bores before reassembly to break the glaze.
----
Saw, I'll get those washers to you Sat or Mon. I may not have the thick ones but I have the AN washers that work. I use them.
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/01/08 8:02 pm

i am taking break for a remainder of the weekend...
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/02/08 12:56 am

I looked again at the pictures. Not related to the plug position. It wraps around the intake side of the piston. Very interesting. Spark tracking?
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/04/08 11:49 am

i loosing momentum on the turd

i know "be patient, all things in time" but there is alot up in the air right now...alot that needs t be done before the turd can saga can continue

i have to send the other rocker box (inlet) out for service. While removing the head...i found that one studs were stripped (one of three) and the nut was grabbing approx. two threads...never fails...POS

just have to wait i guess

update:
if all goes well...which it won't : ) i should have the bike assembled by the end of the weekend..if not sooner

update:
bike is buttoned up. head torqued according to spec and sequenced. valves adjusted. carbs on - sync'd and set.

need to investigate compression..head torqued according to seqnece and spec.. first kick "decent" compression...subsequent kicks lacked compression...

torqued outer head bolts to 20lbs and gained some compression..bike fired

compression does not feel as significant as it did prior to head fix

have not taken for a test ride.
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/14/08 1:07 pm

ok..head was re-torqued and valves adjusted (see thread "where is my compression")

its too early to tell (need to get a few miles on the turd and retorque/re-adjust) but it appears that I am back where I was before the valve issue

my current carbureator ingredient list for both carbs is as follows:

pilot jets: #15

choke jet: #20

enrichers: new (i had one new and one old installed and have since switched to both new..i had experienced some "sucking"..i decided to try the new (again) and there was no more sucking..guessing that it wasn't fully seating?)

slides: 3.5

needles: 2C3 center clip

needle jet: .105 standard drill

new bowls and needles

other useful information (just to refresh everyones memory etc):
top hats are out, short baffles are installed in the pipes and i have added a set of uni-filters.

i am not to a point where i have any definitive results on the running condition of the carbs/turd etc

however...after a short test ride (6-8 blocks..down to the gas station for a fill up) it does feel that i at where i was before the valve job..

i sync'd the carbs..and set the initial idle...carbs need further tweaking

tonights to do list includes.... a short ride and then back to adjust the carbs...re-torque and check the valves
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/14/08 6:35 pm

Like I said needle jet 106.
Posted By: Bob S

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/14/08 11:16 pm

Sawtooth.........Man i thought i had a pantload of replys,223 was i wrong. this bike isn't going anywhere til you take it to a good mechanic, he'll find it in short order. You've got more stamina than i. anyway good luck, it will get going again.TURD TURD TURD. that was my bikes name for awhile. smile
bob s
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/17/08 11:44 pm

thank you for the support bsatri! i have all but abandoned the local help. or have they abandoned me : )

ok...so where are we?? well first a quick update

long story short..head is back on and the valves are adjusted correctly..the head was retorqued after 5 miles, rocker boxes evenly torqued and the valves readjusted...carbs sync'd and idle and pilot set (pilot is currently set at half turn out from seat)

and i even had the local expert to the house to check my valve adjusts and my carb settings...and after a little tweaking...and unplugging and plugging plug wires...he thought the bike was running great...(great at idle anyways)

i took the bike for a spin later that day and it ran the best it ever had....returning home from a 20 mile ride i pulled the plugs and they were nice coffee with creamer color

but if i have learned anything in this process..its that not to take things at face value..especially when it comes to the turd

and today was spent doing plug chops...4 total runs.

before i begin...i did the chops by book (pull the clutch and shut it down..no idling..etc. i used new correctly gapped plugs etc)

the bike was warmed begging Phase 1

Phase 1 of each run consisted of stopping the bike and putting in new plugs and then running the bike at quarter to half throttle for 3 miles and then chopping

Phase 2 of each run consisted of removing the fore mentioned chopped plugs and replacing them with new plugs. The bike was then run at half to three-quarter throttle for 3 miles and then chopping.

RUN 1. The configuration of the carb is (as mentioned previously on this page) NEEDLE JET: .105 standard drilling. NEEDLE: 2C3 (clip in center position)

The result of Phase 1 and Phase 2 were plugs that look as if they hadn't been used. WHITE.

The bike ran good but had a tendency to stumble or stutter. This was especially noticeable in the Phase 1 range (quarter to half throttle)

RUN 2. NEEDLE JET: .106 standard drilling. NEEDLE 2C3 (clip in center position)

The result of Phase 1 and Phase 2 were plugs that look as if they hadn't been used. WHITE.

The bike slightly better but mostly the same. BUT the stumbling/stutter had subsided.

RUN 3. NEEDLE JET: .106 standard drilling. NEEDLE: 2A1 (clip in center position)

The result of Phase 1 and Phase 2 were plugs that look as if they hadn't been used. WHITE.

RUN 4. THE WILD CARD RUN. As you may guess at this point I am beginning to wonder what the heck is up!

On each run the resulting plug color has not changed! There is not sign of color whats so ever....they are white..they don't even look like they have been used!!

Anyways..at this point i was tired of playing with the carbs and thought I would try something simple.

There was such a debate earlier on about what was the correct plug to use (ie NC3 vs. NC5) i thought i would see what the result would be if i tried a colder plug.

So, i dug around in my misc. plug box and found a set of N3C's and a set of NC4's...i cleaned them up the best i could and off i went.

Phase 1 of this run was done so with semi clean N4C's and the result was (drum roll) a new clean set of N4C's!!!! Yes, folks...the used plugs were now WHITE and clean.

So, I decided to redo Phase 1 (quarter/half throttle) but this time I would use a set of N3C's. AND this set of plugs were not clean.. the insultor was black..and i figured what the heck.

Guess, what? WHITE!!

And shts and giggles I did a Phase 2 with the NC3's and..yeah you guessed it WHITE!!!!!!!

Yes, folks I have stumbled upon the FOUNTAIN OF YOUTH for spark plugs!!

For the record the bike is running better. The throttle response is good thru out the throttle range. The engine doesn't seem to be running as hot (IMO opinion the bike was running very hot with the initial RUN 1 configuration)

Sooooooooooooo now what???

(many thanks to Tulsa Steve for the weekend tech support...your experience and insight is very much appreciated)

UPDATE: and speaking of TS...on his prompting...i went out tested for leaks with my trusty can of tri-flow....while the tri flow sprayed round the balance tube and the rubber intake couplings did NOT yield any noticeable results....there WAS SUCKING from the right carb choke hole/venturi but NOT the left.

could this explain the fountain of youth?? and would this effect both plugs??

T

Mr. Tooth
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/18/08 12:50 am

Put a piece of masking tape over the offending air hole and run it. I suppose it could effect both carbs at speed via the balance hose. Maybe it does.
HTH
Posted By: sloppyoil

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/18/08 2:52 am

Don't get mad at me but do you know how to read a plug? I think the results you are looking for are these. After a plug chop (at wide open throttle) pull in clutch , shut down engine and then read a plug for the correct main jet size.Are you looking for a co co brown insulator? You wont find it riding the bike around at normal street speed for 2 or 3 miles. It will take at least 80 to 100 miles for this type of colorazation of the plug. ( people don't hold me to the exact amount of miles) Also check the fire ring for correct jetting and settings. Why don't you ride it for a week or a good long weekend then read the plugs. Subject the bike to the kind of riding style you use then after a 100 miles or so read the plugs. Now of course into the ride if bike is getting hot or running erratic do not continue head back to garage and check the status of your settings. I think you are trying to see the perfect plug read out after a 5 or 10 mile ride and it just does not work that way. You can get those kinds of results on a main check (WOT) but not on the slide, needle, pilot etc. It will take quite a few miles to color the plugs. Good Luck seems like your making headway, if it is running good with no major prblems like overheating take it out and start riding iy and let things start to bed in.
Posted By: Blapper

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/18/08 6:26 am

Hey 'Tooth,

Glad to see you're getting somewhere in this soap opera of threads!

A question; when you say 'the plugs were white', do you mean silver (i.e. clean)?

I know your problems have all been with immediately arriving black sooty deposits indicating exteme richness, but actual white plugs are indicating too hot (weak mixture).

If silver, I'd ride it longer!

Gettin' close now!

Blapper redwine
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/18/08 9:41 am

blap: when i say white..i mean the plugs look as if they hadn't been used. the insulator was white...the plug was clean...new

the insulator was white and the center and side electrode were clean...silver

the only item worth noting was in RUN 1/Phase 2 where the side electrodes were crusted with white

after making the needle jet change etc...no crusty white

sloppy: you may be right..i don't know
Posted By: triton thrasher

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/18/08 11:14 am

Quote:
Originally posted by sawtooth:
i did the chops by book
Not if you didn't do idle first, then full throttle (main jet), then 1/2 throttle (needle position/needle jet), then 1/8 throttle (slide) then idle again.

Why are you using small (105) needle jets? OK so the reason is probably somewhere earlier in the thread.
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/18/08 12:54 pm

ok not by the book...but as i understand the process

105 is stock
Posted By: triumphmike

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/18/08 1:15 pm

You are correct that the T140D used .105 needle jets and 2C3 needles in the stock bike BUT THIS WAS FOR THE 2 INTO 1 PIPES WITH A VERY RESTRICTIVE STOCK MUFFLER. You stated that bike was running better using .106 jets and 2A1 needles which is where you should be for your exhaust configuration.
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/18/08 2:49 pm

actually it started running better with the 106 and the 2C3..i did the 2A1 in hopes of going richer...

there was definte stuttering with the 105 which disappeared with the 106

i think the bike runs about the same with either 2C3 or 2A1 ... not 100% sure

i still have sucking to address...which occured earlier with the same carb (right) i will try an old enricher or go to the tape
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/18/08 4:57 pm

Rick - Try the tape 1st.
----
262. At 300 I quit
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/18/08 5:16 pm

"You are correct that the T140D used .105 needle jets and 2C3 needles in the stock bike BUT THIS WAS FOR THE 2 INTO 1 PIPES WITH A VERY RESTRICTIVE STOCK MUFFLER. You stated that bike was running better using .106 jets and 2A1 needles which is where you should be for your exhaust configuration. "

The 2c3 needle and .105" needle jet combination was to meet EPA exhaust regulations... it had nothing to do with the T140D muffler!!!! The combination was used on all US T140's using the MKII carburetor!

Mike: Steve has the jetting under control. Because the 2A1 and .106" needle jet is used with a 3 1/2 slide (Sawtooth has 3 slides) the leaner 2C3 needle might work. If he changed to the 3 1/2 slide he might find the 2A1 needle would work better. BUT we are splitting hairs here...

Good work Rick!!! When this is all done you will be helping others with carb problems!

Rick: Tape, then we need to learn how to read new plugs! In this case white isn't all that bad.
More... later
J
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/18/08 5:36 pm

Quote:
Rick: Tape, then we need to learn how to read new plugs! In this case white isn't all that bad.
Didn't believe me, eh? See, I told you laughing

265 and counting
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/18/08 6:17 pm

one correction john..i have 3.5 slides..so i am good with .106 and 2A1

steve steve steve..its not that i didn't believe you..but since buying the turd i have learned to always expect the catastrophic

and as far as reading plugs..i use the following

http://www.ingfatrygg.se/Spark_plug_diagnostics.html

but riddle me this batman...we all know that 1979 T140E should take a N5C...

NOW..is it safe to assume that there was need for this correction..due impart to carb setup in accordance with epa standards and restrictions or was it applied to the T140E especially for the paralell port configuration??

if it was the former..and the retrictions have all but been removed from the turd...would it be a logical idea that the turd might take a cooler plug??

or am i way off...as many have noted the N5C is hot plug
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/18/08 7:23 pm

The N5 is used in the T140D & E, and later parallel port heads because the combustion temperature is lower. This is due to improved cylinder filling giving a more even burning gas/air mixture.

Whew... that spark plug site is so missleading (am i being properly politically polite?)!!!!!

This is not how you read a NEW spak plug!!

http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/plug-pictures.html

Although these pictures are from a car burning nitrous oxide this is more in line with what you are looking for. PAY SPECIAL attention to the plugs wih the "pepper" marks. If you see these you are in a danger zone as it is a symptom of detonation.

After several hundred miles the plug will begin to color, but it is not going to look like the plug you saw when there was lead in the gasoline.

Because there is no lead in street gasoline you won't see the grey inside the muffler pipe one was used to seeing either. It is apt to be black soot.
j
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/18/08 8:28 pm

Quote:
Whew... that spark plug site is so misleading (am i being properly politically polite?)!!!!!
John, it's crap.

Rick, go to the Champion Spark Plug main site. They have all the conversions and a section on how to read plugs. I think I may have said to run longer than a few miles for the plug chop. Or maybe not.

Tape the darn hole over. And make sure you have the bellmouth on correctly. I have never seen enough air sucked from one side to the other to lean both sides but I suppose it can happen. Then again I haven't see carb problems like this before either.

I have decided you may have two different carb models. The left is fine with the larger choke rod
so it must be a later carb. The right carb may be earlier. We'll know that when we see which choke rod stops the vacuum. And this is what is causing the problem(s). The mismatch is throwing us off.
Along with the misreading of the plugs.
I bet it runs great when the hole is covered.
HTH. No, this is it!! bigt

267 down - 33 to go
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/18/08 10:04 pm

http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/how-to-read-plugs.html
Posted By: sloppyoil

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/18/08 11:59 pm

John where do you find these nice tid bits? I'll bet sawtooth reads his plugs now!!.
Posted By: JTsmks

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/19/08 1:19 am

Will they tell your future like tea leaves?
Posted By: Steve in Tulsa

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/19/08 1:32 am

Hey guys, stop wasting space! bigt
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/19/08 9:52 am

ewwww i see a new profession looming on the horizon...sawtooth the plug reader....

(i assume i will be waiting for my plugs to color..because as i said previously my plugs look like they came fresh from the box instead of the head)

the model numbers read the same on both carbs 2900

i have applied tape..but no ride due to foul weather
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/19/08 12:35 pm

"Will they tell your future like tea leaves?"

Absolutely!!!!! If you see those little "pepper" like spots on your plugs there is a detonation related piston failure in your future!
j
Posted By: JTsmks

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/19/08 3:30 pm

..........and the subsequent soiled shorts! laugh
Posted By: sawtooth

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/22/08 1:50 pm

UPDATE

SETUP: Slide = 3.5, Pilot Jet = 15, Choke/Starter Jet = 20,
Needle = 2A1 (top clip*), Needle Jet = 106 (standard drilling). Choke hole on left is taped.

RESULTS: running condition has been good, throttle response and torque good.

However both plugs do appear to be running slightly rich (not as bad as when I started this drama)

The contact ring shows a complete ring of medium to heavy carbon...the strap is the same...i can detect color under the carbon and its just very slightly over half going toward the weld.

that is where i am now.

but if you've noticed my 2A1 is in the top clip..why?

well, i did a run last night with the locals...prior to hitting the road...i did a plug check and both plugs were showing signs heavy carbon (no where near where i was when i started this saga...but enough for me to make some on the spot mods)

the left plug had the carbon as above but the insulator was dark chocolate brown with some carbon

the right plug was carbon fouled..remember the choke hole is taped

i did two things to improve my setup:

1. on the right..i removed the choke retainer/lever and the choke spring...and reinstalled the enricher (actually i had did this earlier and subtituted a washer of the same height as the choke retainer/lever and spring...so to be accurate i removed the washer) steve credit

2. i change the clip position of both carb needles to the top position.

and bingo

BUT as i mention at the beginning there is still plenty of carbon..on strap and contact ring...the insulator is coffee with creamer with very very little if any..signs of carbon

so..my questions are:

go back to the 2C3 needle and try it with the clip in the lowest position OR try the 106 needle jet with the larger cross drilling??

and what the heck is going on with the enricher in that right carb?

It could be as steve suggests that..i may have two different carb bodies? The left doesn't have an issue..no sucking with the enrichers that came in the carbs or the replacments.

The right did not improve until i removed the retainer and the spring (washer)

I know it wasn't the the choke lever (tongs) holding the enricher open becuase i removed the retainer/spring and substitutued them with that washer

i have not checked to see if the right carb is still sucking with the enricher fully down..

but i do know that removing the retainer/spring..brought the right plug to the same color as the left

steve is sending enrichers with shorter bodies for testing

(i checked this evening and the choke hole is still sucking..tape is on)

mr. t
Posted By: JubeePrince

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/05/11 11:59 pm

...and if you had left well enough alone, it would have disappeared eventually! laugh

Steve
Posted By: bonneville15

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/10/11 1:46 am

sawtooth:
Do your bike has high compression pistons? That completely changes the game. I haven't gone thru the whole thread but I had a similar problem and it all came down to the idle circuit been plug and spark plugs to hot. Sounds like you are adjusting idle with the jets, sliders or needle clip possition which is an incorrect way to do it. Also read you were running B6ES NGK's, that is way to hot and I surprise you havent burn a hole in the piston.
I have a 77 with 8.6:1 compression and I run BP8ES "p" is for projected electrode. The electrode reach deeper in the combustion chamber, no worry, it won't touch the piston.
Go back take the carbs out and clean them with brake clean and blow compressed air thru the holes in the carb. Take the idle screw out and make sure the idle circuit is clean. A 79 should run #3 slide with #200 main jet on the top needle clip. Run BP7ES with the low comp pistons. Also run 93 octane fuel. If you look on the owners manual it says to put 95 octane or higher, which is impossible these days.
I had a 79 Special at one point and never had a glitch with the MKII's they are good carbs. Also check your charging system just in case. Good luck,
William
Posted By: JubeePrince

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/10/11 3:09 am

Hey William,

Take a close look at the date of "sawtooth" 's last post! laughing laughing laughing

Steve
Posted By: bonneville15

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/10/11 4:31 pm

HOLLY SH*T BATMAN. That is hillarius. What a BATMISTAKE. I should hang my cape and put the BATTRIUMPH away forever Robin, you little turd. Thank Steve.
Posted By: Roadwarrior

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 08/10/11 5:55 pm

Gotta admit, it was quite an adventure back when the post was live. Even better than DPO's last project.
Posted By: bsatrinor

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 09/12/11 2:22 pm

did you se my 930 amals for sale?? NIB exactly what you need, call me 718 354-0787--staten island
Posted By: SEATTLE GS

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 02/19/15 5:08 pm

I fought the same problems with a '79. EASIEST SOLUTION: Kick the MK2s to the curb and replace with a set of concentrics from an earlier model. Runs great.
I finallly discovered that the choke circuit is actually an UNCONTROLLABLE FUEL AND AIR LEAK. I blocked off all the ways that fuel and air could enter the choke circuit and what do you know!! It would then idle and the plugs ran white. By that time my jetting needed to be completely gone through again because of months of fiddling with a handfull of jets but there is some promise here. I switched to a pair of STD concentrics and didn't pursue the project any further.

HOWEVER!! I also gutted the choke system and made a tickler conversion that actually works. It floods when I want it too and stays out of the way the rest of the time..
Posted By: SEATTLE GS

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 02/19/15 10:03 pm

by the way, to install the earlier concentrics on the '79 it is possible to find rubber spigot with 2" bolt spacing so every thig goes on easily. I usually find these things on ebay. The last pair came from TSS motorcycles in Portland OR.
the carbs tend to sag a little but a clever person could build a small and unobtrusive bracket to solve something that isn't even a problem
Posted By: SEATTLE GS

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 02/19/15 10:19 pm

Third and last...is it possible that the QC on the MK2 carbs was very poor and a lot of lemons were produced throughout the series? That means we are all talking about different carbs. Your solution might work for you but not for other people. and vice-versa.

My F/A leak was so bad that it was impossible to make it idle below 2000 even by dropping the slide ALL THE WAY DOWN..
Posted By: John Healy

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 02/20/15 12:05 pm

An air leak that is hard to locate when using MKII carbs can often be traced to a worn enrichener cavity bore. The side of the plunger must be able to seal the transfer hole from the bore to the venturi.

I will say this again! The side of the brass plunger must be able to cover the 1/4" hole that allows an air/fuel mixture from the enrichener circuit into the carburetor bore located just behind the slide. Failing to do this you will have a considerable air leak.

The reason this can happen is in the nature of vacuum in the intake port where you have one carburetor serving one cylinder. The vacuum signal is constantly varying. This pulsing alternatively pulls the brass plunger against the side of the cavity and releases it. This wears the bottom of the cavity not allowing the plunger to completely block the transfer hole.

All this is made worse when you buy a replacement plunger. Because this fault has been well documented years ago, on later production of the plunger the overall length was increased. This spreads the wear over a much larger surface decreasing the chances the problem would occur.

The problem arises when you put in an updated, longer, plunger in an earlier carb body. The new longer plunger centers on the unworn portion of the bore. This leaves a wide gap in the worn portion of the bore where air is free to pass around the plunger and directly through the transfer port. The only practical answer is to replace the body.
Posted By: SEATTLE GS

Re: 1979 T140E - Amal MKII - Plug Fouling TURD - 02/20/15 3:07 pm

I did exactly that...put in a new plunger in an old carb. The body looked good and the main slide fit well so I assumed it was in useable condition.
I found out that when the enrichener circuit was completely blocked off then the carb could function as it should. Is ther still potential in thwese carbs? How would they compare in performance to a similar STD concentric?
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