BritBike Forum

1964 TR6/R Resto

Posted By: TR6Ray

1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/03/10 1:58 pm

I've been enjoying this forum for a while, and decided I may be far enough along to start a thread on my TR6/R project. This first part is way too long and wordy, but it gives the background. I'll be more concise as I get on with it.

The sickness started about 12 years ago, when I started sitting in a different area at the Springfield IL mile races (every Memorial Day and Labor Day). I wound up always sitting next to a guy who was also a long-term dirt track fan. In conversation, he mentioned that he had an old Triumph that he was going to restore someday. He had bought the bike new in 1964, rode it till 1971, then put it into storage. There was nothing wrong with it at the time, but his wife (at the time) thought it irresponsible for a father of young children to take a chance on killing himself by riding a motorcycle!

Every year, I would ask about the progress on the old TR6. Every year it was the same story -- I'm waiting till I get my shop built. Finally, the shop was built and the story became, "I'm waiting till I get the heating system completed in my shop for winter work"

Once the heating system was installed, the shop was very nice and very comfortable, but he decided that he had waited too long. He was getting on in years, and his health was failing. He no longer was interested in the bike project. I was marginally interested and kind of jokingly told him he should sell it to me.

By this time, I was retired from my job at Caterpillar Inc. and had become a truck driver (something I had always wanted to try). One day another driver and I were talking and he told me he would dearly love to find a barn bike for a project. I told him that I knew of two barn bikes (the TR6 and a 1971 CL350 Honda that I had happened upon elsewhere), but I wouldn't tell him where they were. The reason being that I was thinking of buying them myself. From that day on, there was no peace. That driver kept warning me that someone would snatch those bikes if I didn't go get them. He said it was almost immoral to know about two barn bikes and not act on them.

Finally, one week, I got them both. After a couple of days of negotiation, the TR6 PO and I agreed on a price. I was to pick up the bike on the following Saturday. He told me that it didn't weigh much, and I could easily carry it home in my Ford Ranger pickup truck.

Of course, by Friday, there was a hot load that had to be picked up that Saturday. However, it was only a couple towns farther away than where the TR6 was, and I would have enough trailer space to load the bike as well. I offered to make the run on straight time if I could stop and load up the Triumph on the way, and the boss was happy with that. Thus, I got paid for hauling home my project bike. Here are some pics of that day in March of '09 . . .

I parked in front of the PO's house and got the trailer ready. He couldn't believe the size of my "Ford Ranger".

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Here's the bike the way it came out of storage (rusty and corroded, but all there and otherwise unmolested).

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The PO and a friend of his helped me tie it down. I'm the bald-headed graybeard in the black coat.

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The old girl is ready to go for her first ride since about 1971.

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Then I had to pick up the paying part of the load, and use up the rest of the trailer space.

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On the way home, it poured down rain. Here, I had stopped to fuel up the Sky Trak en-route before delivery. Meanwhile, the TR6 was getting its first bath in many years.

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I dropped off the Sky Trak, then went by my house and off-loaded the bike.

To be continued, unless you tell me to shut up!
Posted By: GrandPaul

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/03/10 2:37 pm


Hey, buddy, are you sure that thing is tied down securely? looks "iffy" to me...

hee hee

Great story (so far).
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/03/10 2:50 pm

Hi GrandPaul,

All I can say is that it did survive the ride home.

Some of you Triumph paint experts may be wondering why I am calling this a 1964 TR6R, when its original factory paint shows it to be a Bonnie! There is a story behind that.

Back in '64, the dealer in Bloomington IL had two bikes left for sale, a TR6/R in vibrant scarlet and silver, and a Bonnie in gold and white. A customer wanted the two-carb Bonnie, but hated the paint scheme. He talked the dealer into swapping the sheet metal between the two bikes. Thus he got a new Bonnie in vibrant scarlet and silver. The PO of my bike bought the TR6/R with the Bonnie sheet metal.

Although the PO loved the gold and white, I have opted to repaint in original TR6/R colors. I have often wondered where that Bonnie is now, and whether it is still scarlet/silver.
Posted By: bsahatch

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/03/10 2:51 pm

TR6Ray,

That's a cool shot with both machines loaded on the trailer; you should frame an 8x10 for the work office.
Good luck; I look forward to future progress reports.

Rick
Posted By: GrandPaul

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/03/10 6:46 pm

It would have made a cool photo to get a full shot of the trailer rigged for the road with just the bike strapped on the back of that 50' flatbed.

Talk about overkill!
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/04/10 1:21 am

Once I got the bike corralled at home, I realized I needed to learn more about Triumph. I've been riding for over 40 years, but this would be my first Brit Bike. This forum and others were a great source of info, and I also bought and read several books.

[Linked Image]

I also got some help by reading Wayne Hamilton's blog.
He sent me links to an archived blog where he had restored a TR6/R just like mine.

I soon found out I needed some Whitworth wrenches before I jumped in and destroyed the original hardware set that was still intact on the old bike. I wound up getting Everest tools on-line from British Tools & Fasteners, including a thread gage, a 7-piece open end wrench set, a 7-piece box end wrench set (offset ring spanner bihex Whitworth in Brit terminology), and an 11 piece Whitworth socket set. The sockets are 6-point, and I really wanted 6 point ring wrenches, but could not find them. However, I was pleased to find that the 12 point Everest wrenches (made in India) fit my bike's hardware very precisely. The wrenches aren't highly polished chrome, but they are strong and well made.

Before the wrenches arrived, I wanted to do something just to feel more committed to the project. So, I pulled the tach and speedo and got in touch with Scott Thomas at Smiths Magnetic Instrument Repair. If you need your own gauges repaired, you can email him at: scott@smithsgagerepair.com

Scott specializes in complete restoration of SMITHS Chronometric and Magnetic Motorcycle Instruments.

Scott had done the gages for Wayne Hamilton's TR6/R and Wayne was very happy with them. Scott let me bring the gages to his shop in Arlington Heights IL, and spend the day watching him work on them. I bugged the crap out of him with questions all day, but he still managed to do me a good job.

Before . . .

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After . . .

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Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/04/10 2:39 pm

The first thing newbies like me need is a good manual. I bought the Clymer and Haynes books, but the best thing was the Triumph DVD from Kim the CD Man. From this I printed out specific books for my bike, including owner's, parts, service, and engine overhaul manuals. I also printed out all the Triumph Service Bulletins and used them to mark up changes in my parts and service manuals. From this, I made up a three ring binder with tabs for everything.

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Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/04/10 3:08 pm

My garage was maxed out for space, so I cleared out an area in my basement storage area and set up a little work shop. This works great because it is a walk-out basement. The back door is wide enough to roll motorcycles in and out, and it is heated and air conditioned. I can go down there in the winter without wading through snow.

One of the best tools I put in there was an ancient Compaq computer that had been collecting dust on a shelf (too old and slow for internet use, but perfect for shop use). I loaded my bike manuals on there, use it to play CD music while I work, and load on bunches of pics of everything I am about to tear apart.

With all this in place, I started tearing things apart. The first to come off was the exhaust system. Both silencers were still packed with corn from when the barn mice were using them for condos.

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Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/04/10 4:19 pm

In my naivety, I thought that since the bike was put away intact, I should be able to clean, paint, or plate everything and keep it otherwise 100% original -- right? Way wrong!

First awakening came with the silencers. Mine were longer bodied than I had seen on most restored Triumphs. I found out you can re-chrome silencers if they are straight-through (no baffle). I poked a wooden dowel clear through and thought I was home free. Turned out I couldn't do that on the other side. That's because only one baffle had disintegrated into rusty dust over the years.

I came close appearance-wise by ordering a set from TJ Wassell Engineering of Staffordshire England, but still not an exact match.

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My exhaust header pipes were well protected with oily grease and dirt, but they still had their share of rust and greenish corrosion under the crud . . .

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Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/04/10 6:00 pm

As I took stuff apart, I was pretty anal about laying it out in sequence and taking pictures to load on my shop computer. Later, when I took parts to be painted, powder coated, or chromed, I gave a set of pictures to the shop so they could keep track of my stuff. Here's a few examples of what stuff looked like coming apart . . .

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I lost one of the air filter clips during disassembly, and the chromer lost the other one. More bits to buy!

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For an accurate restoration, I guess I need to buy this decal new . . .

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For Rmak and GrandPaul, here is how the choke and throttle cables were routed before I took them apart.

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The oil line connections under the tank. Cleanliness is next to Godliness, right?

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After the tank was out, I stuck the screen back in place and snapped a pic so my addled brain wouldn't be confused later.

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Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera!
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/04/10 7:20 pm

One of the best things about my 46 year old Triumph is that I am only the second owner. I have stayed in touch with the original owner and try to keep him posted on my progress (or lack thereof). I am thankful that he has overcome his health problems and he is able to ride motorcycles again. I only hope to be half as tough as he is when I reach his age (if I do). We have become good friends and ride out to eat together sometimes (for now, its me on my Harley and him on his Honda). I will be seeing him at the Springfield Mile tomorrow, which is where this thread began.

Along the way, he has given me some things that I am truly grateful to have. First was the cotton jacket that he got when he bought the bike new back in '64 . . .

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Here's the logo closer up . . .

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Also, the logo on the back of the jacket. This dealer has been gone for a long time, but the jacket remains . . .

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And a sweat shirt from the same era . . .

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A closer shot of its logo . . .

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And the Holy Grail. He recently was searching for a pair of earrings that his girlfriend had lost at his house. He didn't find them, but he did find (drum roll) the original fork lock insert with the key still in it!

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All this stuff had been put away before my kids were born, and now my kids have kids. Stuff like this blows me away!
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/04/10 7:57 pm

Among the original parts I had really wanted to re-use on the bike were the tank badges. I really like the egg-crate, or garden-gate style badges. However, at some point during its stay in the barn, something had smacked into one of the badges. It did not dent the fuel tank but the diecast badge was beyond repair . . .

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The new (re-pop) badges come with no paint . . .

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I followed Wayne Hamilton's example and used a small artist's brush with black and gold paint. I spent an afternoon doing several coats. It made my eyes cross after a while, but I'm happy with the way they look . . .

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Ed Zender, who runs Morrie's Place up in Ringwood Illinois, Northern Illinois' Oldest and Largest British Shop, showed me how to shape the back of the repop badges so they will fit the tank properly. The trouble is that I didn't consider this until I had turned in my fuel tank to be painted. I'm still going to do it, but will have to be very careful test fitting the badges so I don't scratch the new paint. I should have done it with the tank still in its original old paint. Arrrgh!

Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/04/10 8:21 pm

Another little detail was the sidestand. I knew it was under there, but couldn't reach it with my toe. It was hidden up under the exhaust pipe. When I looked at it, I could see that the tab that is supposed to stick out past the exhaust pipe was broken off the end of the sidestand. I wasn't sure what the tab should even look like.

Ed Zender, Morrie's Place, sold me a used sidestand with the tab intact. The only problem was that someone had run a 3/8 inch drill through the mounting hole and used a hardware store bolt on it. So now I had two sidestands with two different problems. Oh well -- at least the sidestand tab was still brazed onto the bike frame! I understand that many of these are broken off due to fat riders lying down on the bike while it is on its sidestand.

I can't weld, but I have a friend who can. I made a new tab by copying the one on the stand that I bought from Morrie's Place. Then my friend cut off the broken tab and welded my new one into place. He also welded the oversize drilled hole shut.

I bought a few taps from British Tools & Fasteners and drilled and tapped a new hole. The other taps are for chasing threads elsewhere as needed. Now I have a good sidestand, and a spare for when the tab breaks off again someday . . .

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And here they are with powder coat . . .

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Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/04/10 9:01 pm

All the time I was tearing things apart, I was sorting stuff into labelled sandwich baggies and storage bins labelled Cad Plating, Chrome Plating, Powder Coating, Paint Parts, and Junk Parts.

I was also accumulating a regular pirate's chest full of new parts.

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Anyone thinking about this kind of project should consider this part. It is stuff most of these old bikes will need. I'm talking about -- in no apparent order -- brake shoes & springs, horn, gaiters, ammeter, cables (for tach, speedo, brake, throttle, and clutch), front fork and swinging arm bushes, stanchion tubes, chain, oil tank cap, fuel tank cap, Podtronics rectifier / regulator, rubber parts (rider and pillion pegs, kick lever, shift lever), Buchanon stainless spokes, Boyer Module (optional -- I could stay with points system), sealed wheel bearings (optional -- I could reuse my old ones), steering stem bearings and races (optional -- I could reuse the loose balls), seals of various types, and on and on.

Dang it! I hope my wife doesnt't ever read this.
Posted By: rmak

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/04/10 9:22 pm

The blessing of separate accounts.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/04/10 10:01 pm

I was up in Ringwood IL at Morrie's Place one day early this year. By coincidence, Ed Zender had someone else's 1964 TR6/R in the back room, sitting there in freshly painted splendor -- all vibrant scarlet and silvery. The man had everything ready to go, but wanted Ed's people to do the initial startup and tuning for him. I was smitten by that bike. Ed Zender has a guy who does excellent paint work.

At the end of February, I gave Ed my sheet metal to make it look the same way as what I had seen. I told him there was no hurry, because I had so much else to do before I would need it. Also, there were a number of other people's bikes ahead of me. I saw Ed at the Davenport Swap Meet and he said my parts are looking good. Everything will be ready for pickup this coming week. I don't believe in shipping these old parts -- I'd be heartbroken if they got lost or damaged in shipment, so I will run up there and get 'em myself.

Here are some "before" pictures of what I turned in. As you can see, some aluminum roof paint blew threw the barn at some point during the bike's stay in there.

I hope to post some "after" shots later.

Front fender . . .

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Rear fender . . .

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Fuel tank . . .

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Oil tank . . .

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Side cover . . .

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Taillight bracket, and headlight ears . . .

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Fork tensioner . . .

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Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/04/10 10:49 pm

A month to the day after I dropped off the paint parts, I took in 75 individual piece parts to be chrome plated. I took these to Quality Chrome Plating in Sterling IL.

http://www.qualitychromeplating.com/index.html

The reason there were so many parts is that I am counting (as the chrome shop does) every bolt and nut.

I decided to try to keep my original wheel rims, exhaust headers, and a lot of other stuff that I probably could have replaced cheaper with re-pop parts. It was important to me to keep as much original content as possible.

It wasn't cheap, and it took a while to get my parts back. There were a few parts I was dissatisfied with. However, the shop redid them to my satisfaction at no additional charge, and did a very nice job in my opinion. I am very pleased with the results. They took some scabrously nasty parts and made them look like 1964 again -- maybe better. I would recommend this outfit.

Here are some "before and after" pics . . .

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Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/05/10 12:46 am

Well, the only real bargain so far in this project has been the powdercoating work. Sorry, but I cannot tell you where it was done. It took 2 days, cost next to nothing, and came back looking great! It was sort of a "side deal" by someone who did an excellent job for me.

On a Monday morning, I took all the parts (55 pieces, I think) in and dropped them off just as they came off the bike. This means greasy, grungy, and rusty. They went through an MEK wash, shot blast, and powder. Then the powder was wiped off of wherever it did not belong (bearing race bores, etc.) prior to baking in the oven. After baking, the parts were powdered, wiped, and baked a second time.

Here are some "before & after" pics.

The front hub, done in silver powder . . .

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The rear hub . . .

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The torque stays . . .

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The side plates . . .

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The instrument plate . . .

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The front fender stays . . .

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The main frame . . .

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And finally, a shot of all the powdered pieces that were done in gloss black . . .

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Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/05/10 1:13 am

This is a bit out of sequence, but I thought it might be helpful to someone in the same situation as I was in.

I did my teardown without benefit of a bike table or bike lift. I have a motorcycle frame jack, but it seemed like more trouble than it was worth to carry it down from the garage. I just used a mechanic's creeper stool and worked the bike as it sat on the floor . . .

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After it was mostly apart, I needed some way to work on the rear half. The bike was on the center stand and back wheel. If I rocked the front of the bike down, the center stand wanted to sping into the "up" position. I fixed that with an old tie-down strap . . .

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Next I needed some kind of "sky hook" to hold up the back end. I remembered an old come-along I had stored away, so I rigged a piece of black iron pipe between some floor joists to hook it onto. I wasn't planning to lift much weight, and whatever I lifted was shared between two joists. (Coincidentally, my wife's recliner sits in the living room directly above where I installed the pipe, but she doesn't weigh much either, hee hee) . . .

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With the rear end suspended, and the bike balanced on the centerstand, it was easy to finish the job . . .

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Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/05/10 2:32 am

That's about caught up to where I am now. My next step is hardware, which has bothered me for some time now. I have been told that if you clean up your old hardware with a wire wheel, and then have it white cadmium plated, it will have black streaks in the plating. It needs to be bead blasted or cleaned in a vibratory polisher instead.

I thought for a long time about getting a bead blasting cabinet. The problem is lack of space. I also don't even have an air compressor, which is kind of stupid. I know you need a compressor that will keep up with a minimum of 20 cf/m at 90 psi or better. I have room for a big compressor, but after this project, a smaller, cheaper compressor would do whatever I need. I would probably rarely if ever use the bead blast cabinet again, even if I had a place for it.

I bought a vibratory polisher at Harbor Freight, but I didn't have the patience for it.

Finally I found out that a motorcycle friend (the best kind of friend to have) has a big blast cabinet, dust collector, and air compressor setup that he would let me use. Last week, I blasted every bolt, nut, washer, and lock washer individually. Now the trick is to get it plated before it rusts again.

I figure there is about 14 lbs of stuff to plate, and GrandPaul posted that Burbank Plating has a 166 lb minimum flat rate.

I did have everything sorted and labelled, but I will have to mix it all together to get it plated. Guess I'll take picture of each baggie and sort it out later.

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The other problem is that a lot of the bolt heads are badly pitted. I may get it all plated anyway and replace it later if I decide to. Or, I could keep it for "patina". I know I can buy new hardware, but I haven't seen it advertised with white cadmium on it.
Posted By: T140V-Rich

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/05/10 11:47 am

Great story, Ray. Enjoyed every bit. Shame the PO waited until he was in poor health to do something with the bike. But it looks as if you have a very nice restoration example on your hands.

The bike is the year I was born. I recognized those colors immediately, although I did think it a Bonnie initially.

Looks like great work you've already done. I'll be watching for more posts on your work, if you have time to make more. I'm a few steps behind you in that I'm still stripping the frame's paint on my dad's 1973 Bonnie.

Best of luck in bringing it back. Enjoyed it!

Richard
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/06/10 4:03 pm

Thanks for the kind words, Rich; I wasn't sure anyone would be interested in what I'm doing, because its mainly just a cleanup of an already complete bike. It certainly doesn't take a rocket scientist to do what I'm doing. Maybe another novice like myself can benefit from what I've done to "climb the learning curve" to this point.

Happily, I saw the PO yesterday at the races, and he is getting around quite well and enjoying life once again .

You mentioned you were born the same year as my bike. Funny how I have started to use that as a yardstick to put other events into perspective. It drives my wife nuts. For example, 1964 is the year my brother moved into his house. Yesterday we were talking about Chris Carr (I'm not one of his fans, but must admit he still has a lot of talent) getting on in years -- he was born three years after my bike, and the PO still had the old TR6 rolling down the road back then.

Re: paint color -- I debated for a long time whether to keep the Bonnie color, since that was what was on the TR6 when it left the dealership initially. I might have done that, if the factory had used the Burnished gold / Alaskan white / Blue pinstripe scheme they came up with in the following year (1965). For an excellent example, see Rmak's project bike.

However, at the risk of offending someone, the lower-gloss 1964 Bonnie gold / white / black pinstripe didn't really grab me. Once I saw a 1964 TR6 in Vibrant scarlet / Silver / Gold pinstripe, I was hooked -- decision over!

Hope to have some pics of my painted sheet metal on here later this week.
Posted By: shel

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/06/10 4:26 pm

Ray, a lot of us love to follow these sort of threads but don't comment much. Keep posting and keep up the good work. I'm sure she'll be a real beauty when she's finished.
Posted By: BikeVice

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/06/10 5:07 pm



Great thread Ray, please keep it going. For smaller batches of Cadmium plating, try Aero Propeller in Colorado:

http://www.aeropropeller.com/

They plated 27 Lbs. of T140 hardware for me last year. The cost was about $175.00.

Eric
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/06/10 5:52 pm

BikeVice,

You are sure to get me in big trouble with my wife! I checked your link on aeropropeller and found out they are less than 1,000 miles from my house. I could throw my hardware in a saddlebag (pannier for the Brits on here) and scoot on out there. They are right by Rocky Mtn. Nat'l Park, and I could visit Baxter Cycle on the way out there. Hmmmmm!

Thanks for the tip!
Posted By: HawaiianTiger

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/06/10 7:19 pm

I used aero for my '62 but the frieght sent by UPS cost nearly as much as the plating. They did a superlative job, however.
I'd love to get my hands on a restoration project of this caliber. Mostly I just start with an unrelated pile of junk that used to be a chopper.
As far as fasteners are concerned, a lot of grief can be avoided by buying new ones where the rust has eaten away much of it. The best restorations send all the new stuff(which is usually zinc plated) along with all the original hardware to be cad plated. That way it all matches from the start and ages at the same rate.
On my bikes one of the most time consuming parts of the whole restoration is preparing the hardware for plating. I'll spend hours with a file removing damage. I couldn't do it without my compressor and blast cabnet, though.
Keep up the good work. I love seeing pics of the original paintwork. Most folks never get the details, such as the underside of the tank, correct.
Bill
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/06/10 8:25 pm

Tiger,

Thanks for the additional recommendation regarding aero. I didn't even know those big brown trucks could run between Hawaii and Colorado!

Disregarding the fact that freight to and from Illinois would be a lot cheaper with no ocean to cross, it still helps build my case for carrying them out there on 2 wheels. Right now, I can't get the thought off my mind. Depending on turn-around at aero, I could drop off my stuff, loop around through the mountains for a couple or more days, and take my finished hardware back home with me. Have I equalled the shipping cost yet?

Also, my parts guy keeps telling me how easy, easy, easy my project is, since everything was there when I started. I know that's true, and it's one reason I thought I could muddle through this as a beginner.

A file! Why didn't that occur to me? I'm pretty darn good with a file, if I say so myself. I hadn't considered filing the rust pits. Some of them would certainly be shallow enough.

That's also a good tip about sending in the new and old hardware in one batch. My trouble now is that I need to get my blasted stuff turned in quickly before it starts to re-rust. Maybe if the new and old hardware all get exposed to the great outdoors starting at the same time they would age together appropriately. Do you notice much variation batch to batch with the plating?
Posted By: BikeVice

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/06/10 8:46 pm

Originally Posted By: HawaiianTiger
I used aero for my '62 but the frieght sent by UPS cost nearly as much as the plating. They did a superlative job, however.


You're right, I forgot about the shipping cost. I sent my parts in a USPS Flat Rate box for $10.70 and Aero Propeller returned them UPS for considerably more, not nearly as much as the plating however. I have another batch there now, so I should have updated shipping and plating costs soon.

Eric
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/06/10 8:52 pm

Originally Posted by HawaiianTiger
I'd love to get my hands on a restoration project of this caliber. Mostly I just start with an unrelated pile of junk that used to be a chopper.
Bill


Here's a story that'll really make you cringe. About 6 years ago, I gave away a 1958 500cc basket case. It was a rolling chassis (on flat tires), with most of the engine and tranny intact, plus a few boxes of parts, extra jugs, point sets, etc. A guy had it stored for 10 years or so, and was going to junk it. He gave it to my brother-in-law who stored it for another 8 or 9 years. He gave it to me. I stored it for about 7 more years, until the wife said it was time to get rid of it. I gave it to a friend who is a good mechanic, a good painter, and a long time Triumph lover. I told him there was no title, but I would haul it to his house for free and he could have it, no charge, if he was willing to take it off my hands.

Fast forward about 6 months. My brother-in-law found the title and gave it to me. I took it to the guy who had the bike. I told him I figured he hadn't touched the old bike and maybe never would, but here's the title, for whatever it's worth.

He replied that the bike was nearly road worthy. Less than a month after that, he showed up in my driveway on it and gave me a picture of it. He recently trailered it down to Georgia for the GABMA rally. He ran it on several 250 mile loop trips while he was there. The soles of his shoes were worn off at an angle from cornering. He said he couldn't believe how excellent that old bike was to ride.

Here's what it looked like after he first got it going . . .

[Linked Image]

He was not a bit concerned with historical accuracy. He built it to make himself happy. Since this time, he has refitted it with a re-pop front rim, laced to a later front hub with twin leading shoe brakes. He rides it a lot!

Do I kick myself over this? No -- I know I wouldn't have gotten it going, and he did. I sorta feel like I helped rescue an old bike by giving it to him, and I am glad he is having fun with it!

Seeing what he did with the old basket case also inspired me to go get my TR6. I called him before I bought it and got his advice. It was basically, "If you don't go after it, you are crazy. If you decide not to get it, please let me be the first to know where it is!"
Posted By: HawaiianTiger

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/06/10 9:34 pm

I'm kinda AR when it comes to hardware. Long ago when attending every bike show for 500miles I discovered the real difference between one restoration and another. It's in the little details like fasteners. Nothing ruins a good restoration than finding ugly garbage like acorn nuts on an otherwise good resto. I don't even like socket head case screws to tell the truth. They cause more problems than they solve.
There are always small differences from one batch of cad to another in my experience. Don't be afraid to coat your prepared fasteners in oil to preserve them before plating. They will go through a thorough cleaning before they go into the bath if for no other reason than to protect the bath from contamination.
Bill
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/06/10 9:53 pm

Originally Posted By: HawaiianTiger
There are always small differences from one batch of cad to another in my experience. Don't be afraid to coat your prepared fasteners in oil to preserve them before plating. They will go through a thorough cleaning before they go into the bath if for no other reason than to protect the bath from contamination.
Bill


O.K., thanks. I was under the impression that the platers wouldn't do any prep work -- if it didn't come in clean, they wouldn't touch it. That's why I bead blasted all the rust and grime away. Maybe an oil film is different. I'll call aero and another place I've heard about tomorrow, and ask them.

Anyone had any experience with JD Plating in Waukegan IL?
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/10/10 1:16 am

Following advice from HawaiianTiger, I have been reworking my hardware as needed to get rid of any pitting. Mostly I'm using a file, but also some other implements of destruction like strips of various grit of emery paper, and my Dremel Tool. I have just a handful left to do, and I think it is a big improvement. I appreciate the advice. Thanks, Bill!

I think I am going to just stay in Illinois for my cad work. I called JD Plating and he said he can probably flip it in one or two days. He said 15 pounds would run me about $85.00

I'll post the results later.
Posted By: HawaiianTiger

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/10/10 1:20 am

85$ for 15 lbs is a good deal. Looking forward to seeing pics of the results.
Bill
Posted By: BikeVice

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/10/10 2:20 am

I just got my last batch back from Aero Propeller:



$150.00 for 25 lbs, or $6.00/lb. with a 3 week turnaround.

Eric
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/10/10 12:42 pm

Eric,

Great picture you had (I saved a copy in my thread backup before the evildoers at Photobucket wiped everything out). With your hardware sorted and laid out like that, it looks like one big, beautiful, 3 dimensional puzzle.

[Linked Image]

It also reminds me that there are some bits (chain adjusters, adjuster end plates, wheel bearing retainer, etc.) that I don't have in my cad box. Guess I better make one more sweep through my parts so I don't have to end up turning in more than one batch to the plater.

Going through this stuff bit by bit makes me appreciate the artistry in the details on the old Triumph -- domed bolt heads and so forth. I'm glad I have the original hardware.
Posted By: GrandPaul

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/10/10 3:05 pm

I also use USPS flat rate boxes, however:

Insert one box inside another for durability, and tape them up heavily upon closing.

I managed FIFTY-FIVE pounds in ONE box, for $10-something.

The Postal clerk looked at me sideways when I struggled to heft that dang box onto the counter! He said "that's cheating", to which I replied (and he ought to know) "If it fits, it ships"!

IF you can get the plater to return the shipment in the same manner, it's the best deal out there.

It would take 4 bikes worth of hardware to meet Burbank's minimum, for the same flat rate. So, I typically scrounge through the shop for anything and everything that will fit in the box. Over the years, I've turned half of my bits and bobs from rusty, oily junk into freshly Cad plated junk!
Posted By: BikeVice

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/10/10 5:29 pm

Originally Posted By: TR6Ray


Going through this stuff bit by bit makes me appreciate the artistry in the details on the old Triumph -- domed bolt heads and so forth. I'm glad I have the original hardware.


You bet, it's a pleasure to reassemble a bike with fresh chrome,paint and cad. I'd rather have a scratch on my gas tank than a grade 2 bolt from Home Depot on my bike. Don't even get me started on those cheap red/blue/yellow vinyl electrical connectors.

Eric
Posted By: HawaiianTiger

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/11/10 9:27 pm

Originally Posted By: BikeVice
[quote=TR6Ray]

I'd rather have a scratch on my gas tank than a grade 2 bolt from Home Depot on my bike. Don't even get me started on those cheap red/blue/yellow vinyl electrical connectors.

Eric

Exactly! laughing
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/12/10 2:22 am

O.K., so I saw Eric's picture of his hardware all laid out nice and pretty. Realized I had forgotten some things. I made another sweep through my storage bins. Still had cad parts in boxes labelled Front Wheel, Rear Wheel, Harness & Electrical, even had my rim locks left in a misc. bin.

This stuff I found was still grungy, which took the wind out of my sails for sure. I had thought I was all done filing and reworking. So, another four hours at the bead blast cabinet today. Now I have it for sure -- I think!

Since I don't trust my memory, I'm laying out each little baggie of hardware on a piece of white paper and taking a picture of it. Then I'm pasting the picture into a MS Word document. Under each picture is the label from the baggie. I'm also typing in a description for each item. I get this by measuring each and every bolt, nut, washer, lock washer, spacer, etc with my calipers (inside diameter, outside diameter, length and so forth). It's a lot of work, but I will feel more comfortable mixing it all together for the plater. The document is 26 pages & 1600 words long, and counting -- I still have to add the parts I worked on today.

After all this, if that guy loses my stuff, I won't be responsible for my actions!
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/12/10 2:29 am

Here's a question for you guys. What about the fork springs? My old springs looked like unplated steel, but had very little rust. I bead blasted them and figured I would get them cad plated. I'm wondering though, if I should get some new springs with progressive windings. Were these old bikes a little soft on the front suspension? Will plating harm the old springs if I reuse them? I know that chrome plating can cause hydrogen embrittlement, but I don't know what effect, if any, cadmium has.
Posted By: bykerhd

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/12/10 3:15 am

New progressive wound fork springs are available and not terribly expensive. I would replace the old springs and not worry about chrome or whatever plating. Just replace the fork gaiters when they fail( use to be about every other year ) and no one will ever see them. Except you. I doubt rust will be too much of an issue.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/12/10 4:40 pm

Originally Posted by bykerhd
New progressive wound fork springs are available and not terribly expensive. I would replace the old springs and not worry about chrome or whatever plating. Just replace the fork gaiters when they fail( use to be about every other year ) and no one will ever see them. Except you. I doubt rust will be too much of an issue.


That's probably good advice. I might as well shop for springs while it's apart. I've got the new gaiters and clamps for it. That's one area where the Japanese seem to have it over on the Brits. My other old barn bike is a little Honda I'm putting back together. Although its gaiters were filthy dirty, they cleaned up to look like new, and are still soft and pliable. The Triumph gaiters both had holes rotted in them and the stanchion tubes were so rusty and pitted that I bought new ones. Here's the old Brit gaiter held up next to the little CL 350 . . .

[Linked Image]

In all fairness, the TR6 is 46 years old, and the Honda is only 39. I think the TR6 gaiters feel like actual rubber, while the Honda gaiters seem to be a blend of plastic, which was the miracle material just getting a real good foothold in 1971.
Posted By: Britbodger R.I.P.

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/12/10 5:12 pm

I am really enjoying reading posts of your progress!

Bit off on a tangent I know, but believe that the 64 frame had a steeper head angle than later years that results in sharper handling when cornering than the later models. As a result that frame is much sort after by vintage dirt trackers,road racers and road riders who like riding the twisties!

Not sure as to why Triumph made the change in head angle but rumor has it that most American riders didn't like the sharper handling of the 64 frame preferring the superior straight line stability that a increased head angle provides.

Stand to be corrected on this but thats what I've heard.

Maybe the Triumph gurus (John Healy!) grin will step-in and either verify or correct me on my understanding.

beerchug

P.S. I bought a TR6C 1970 model new and still own it! loved every minute of riding it!


Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/12/10 8:11 pm

Britbodger,

Thanks for the kind words. I'm new to Triumph, so all I know is what I have read. I think the head angle was revised a couple years later, in 1966. In 1964, the big feature changes they were touting were . . .

* Completely redesigned front fork

[Linked Image]

* New footrests mounted on the rear engine plates to give greater ground clearance.

* First year for Smith's magnetic speedometers and matching tachometers with internal anti-vibration mountings.

According to Lindsay Brooke's excellent book, "Triumph Motorcycles - A Century of Passion and Power" . . .

"The problematic duplex frame that lasted just three model years was replaced in 1963. This one reverted to a single front downtube, beefier than in 1959. It was welded into a splayed engine cradle and the rear subframe bolted on as before, but with a stiffer swing arm and stouter engine and swing-arm mounts. This basic chassis would serve Triumph's 650-cc twins admirably through the 1970 model year, and in similar form was used on the T100s until 1973. Early versions still exhibited stubborn wobbles at speeds over 90 miles per hour, requiring riders to twist the steering damper. A much stronger fork with external springs was added in 1964 and it helped improve stability and ride quality.

But the significant changes that made good twins great were brought by Doug Hele between 1966 and 1968. They included a revised steering head angle; further reinforcement around the swinging arm; two-way fork damping, with shuttle-valve internals, an excellent 8-inch front brake with twin-leading shoe; and scores of engine and gearbox improvements"

If you have a 1970 TR6C, you got all the good stuff listed above and barely missed out on the Slumberglade Hall "improvements" of higher seat height and OIF of 1971.

I think it is awesome that you bought your bike new and you are still enjoying it. I think the best and easiest way to get yourself a classic motorcycle is to wisely pick a new bike to buy, and then gracefully grow old with it. By this, I mean no bobbing, chopping, cafe-ing, painting,etc. If you add aftermarket parts -- OK, but save what you took off. If you want to bob, chop, cafe, customize, etc. buy something unrestorable and have your way with it. Show the world your artistic capability. I love looking at the "bitsa bikes" on here. Some of these guys are excellent engineers, painters, and designers -- way beyond anything I will ever be capable of. But I don't like to see classics (cars, trucks, or motorcycles) cut up. That's just my philosophy, and I will shut up now.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/13/10 9:09 pm

Last night I finished prepping the rest of my cad parts, along with taking pictures to identify it all later.

Took a break today to go pick up the final 3 pieces of work still at the chrome shop. The man offered to UPS them, but there are some really nice 2-lane Illinois blacktops between here and there. I'm always up for any excuse to take a mcy ride, especially on a day like today. Got in about 180 miles of pre-autumn weather, with beautiful russet colored fields being harvested all along the way.

I should have just got re-pops here. These are minor pieces and they had to do them twice. I'm still not thrilled with them, but will use them. The rest of the stuff came out good. At least all the chrome parts are back home on the shelf.

[Linked Image]

On the other hand, I didn't give them much to work with. Here's what the points cover looked like when I first took it in.

[Linked Image]

While at the chrome shop, I asked some questions about cadmium. This shop no longer does it, but did for quite a while before the environmental issues got too difficult. Some answers:

* Hydrogen embrittlement comes from the nickel plating in preparation for chrome plating. Cadmium plating will not in any way cause embrittlement.

* Springs, such as for sidestand or centerstand, should have the coils spread during the plating process by stretching them on some sort of pin or mandrel. This allows the plating to get to all the surface area.

* Zinc plated parts, such as my brand-new gaiter strap clamps, can be cad plated without me doing any prep work. The acid cleaning before the cad plating process will remove the zinc.

* I probably won't do this, but the man said I should have bead blasted any parts where I had filed or sanded to remove rust pits. He said the parts that are shinier from filing than the other parts that were simply bead blasted will be slightly different after cad plating. Shinier parts will plate to a shinier finish. Bead blasting after filing would level the playing field. I'm gonna take my chances -- I'll let you know if I made a mistake here.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/14/10 4:38 pm

One of the hardest things I've had to force myself to do on this project was to open up all the labelled plastic baggies and mix all my hardware together for the cad plater. It's like pulling off a band-aid -- do it quickly and try not to flinch . . .

[Linked Image]

Made up some "stretchers" to slightly open the coils on these old, pitted, springs. Hoping to get cadmium on all the surfaces to prevent rusting. Wonder how long they will last anyway . . .

[Linked Image]

Well, it's all in the box. Soon as the man calls to tell me the paint parts are ready for pickup (was supposed to be week before last), my hardware is off to see the wizard. I'm trying to do this all in one trip. The cad guy is only 30 miles from the paint guy, but they are 165 miles from my house.
Posted By: HawaiianTiger

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/14/10 7:21 pm

Ray,
I'm fairly certain that in '64 Triumph was still using springs that were not cad plated but black oxide or parkerized. The thinking then was that the spring metal would become too brittle from the hydrogen. I think that has been discounted since then and even if it was true it can be easily treated by heat or just letting the parts age. I powdercoat mine, acutally, after cad plating believe it or not. They should last forever!
I'm not seeing your rocker shafts or kick start or shifter shafts in the box. I don't think they were cad plated originally but rusty shaft ends do spoil an otherwise pristine restoration.
Also with every restoration I do, ever single stud gets the treatment too. I've seen lots of otherwise frist class restorations with rusting studs. It makes you wonder what else the restorer neglected to take care of.
Cad plating is the most durable electroplated surface for motorcycle restoration. (I suppose you could silver or gold plate for a longer lasting surface.)
I have forty year old hardware in my collection. If I give them a gentle cleaning with aluminum shot, they look as good as new.
I see aluminum wire ties in the box. Were they cad plated? Originally they were enameled black. I powdercoat these at home in my shop. Other folks I know just blacken them with a Sharpie.
Bill
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/14/10 9:01 pm

Originally Posted by HawaiianTiger
I'm fairly certain that in '64 Triumph was still using springs that were not cad plated but black oxide or parkerized. The thinking then was that the spring metal would become too brittle from the hydrogen.


I think you are right about the springs. Mine were not cad plated; they appeared to be either black oxide coated or parkerized. I am 95% sure I am going to buy new springs, but am getting the old ones cad plated just in case. I've been told that cadmium will not cause embrittlement. Hydrogen embrittlement is caused by the nickel plating process, preparatory to chrome plating. I'm talking here about my fork springs. The sidestand, centerstand, and brake switch springs were too rusty to tell what their original finish was.

Originally Posted by HawaiianTiger
I'm not seeing your rocker shafts or kick start or shifter shafts in the box. I don't think they were cad plated originally but rusty shaft ends do spoil an otherwise pristine restoration.
Also with every restoration I do, ever single stud gets the treatment too.


You have very good eyes. The only things yet to come off my engine/transmission are the kick lever, the shift lever, and the points cover. I took these off to get them chromed. The rest of the engine and transmission reside in a Rubbermaid container in my shop. That is a whole 'nother story -- I'll put something on here later. I know -- that will mean another batch for the cad guy.

Originally Posted by HawaiianTiger
I see aluminum wire ties in the box. Were they cad plated? Originally they were enameled black. I powdercoat these at home in my shop. Other folks I know just blacken them with a Sharpie.


They were black, and I will hit them with the rattle can. If I scrape off some paint re-installing them, I'll touch up with an artist's brush. I did not mean to throw them into the cad batch. Obviously, being aluminum they are not going to rust anytime soon!

Originally Posted by HawaiianTiger
Cad plating is the most durable electroplated surface for motorcycle restoration. (I suppose you could silver or gold plate for a longer lasting surface.)
I have forty year old hardware in my collection. If I give them a gentle cleaning with aluminum shot, they look as good as new.


Thanks for that -- it's very reassuring to know. I'm also hoping to give this bike a better environment to live in than it had while it was in the barn.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/16/10 2:16 pm

Long road trip yesterday, but on 4 wheels. Up to Morrie's Place in Ringwood IL to pick up some of the painted parts and a bunch of misc stuff . . .

[Linked Image]

Not a very good picture -- there is a gold pin stripe separating the scarlet and silver, but it doesn't show very well here. I'll put a better one on after I get the stuff back onto the petrol tank. Got a new set of kneepads for it yesterday.

Then over to Waukegan, where I dropped off my hardware to be cad plated by Jose at JD Plating. Then all the way down through Chicago and a stop at Werth's Triumph in Plainfield to visit with friends Mark and Harold. Then back down to central IL to show the paint parts to the PO. We went out to eat, then I went back home (420+ miles).

The side cover and oil tank are still at paint -- they still have to place a couple decals and then clear coat over them. I asked them to shoot the tensioner knob again as well. When these are done, it'll be a repeat trip to pick them up, along with the cad parts.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/17/10 11:46 am

Originally Posted By: TR6Ray

* Zinc plated parts, such as my brand-new gaiter strap clamps, can be cad plated without me doing any prep work. The acid cleaning before the cad plating process will remove the zinc.


Wrong -- according to Jose at JD Plating, it would be unwise to acid clean the zinc plated gaiter clamps or some other misc. small bits that I had with me when I dropped off the hardware for cad plating. He said the clamp strips would be likely to break when I wrapped them around the gaiters later. If I want to cad plate them, he said I should bead blast them to remove the zinc, then bring them back to him.

Having never done this before, I am waiting till I get the cad stuff back so I can see how much difference it would make to get the gaiter straps redone in cadmium. I figure there will be one or more trips back to the plater anyway. Hope to have my stuff home within a day or so.
Posted By: Literacy Bikes

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/21/10 7:28 pm

TR6Ray, this thread is a real treat!! Especially for the less experienced builder. You're avoiding a good bit of mistakes I've already made!

Keep up the awesome and encouraging work!
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/21/10 10:34 pm

Matt, Thanks for the encouragement. I googled up your MySpace page for Literacy Bikes -- bicycles & books -- I like that. I see you customize customers' bicycles. My current bicycle is from circa 1961 (3 yrs older than my TR6), so I doubt you could do much with it. It is a Seneca one-speed that I got from a local hardware store when Kennedy was still the president. I still ride it. Like a Triumph, it just needs stuff like fresh wheel bearing grease and tires occasionally.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/21/10 11:12 pm

Well, I reached a sort of milestone today by getting all my TR6R parts back home into my shop. I picked up the last of my paint parts from Morrie's Place (tensioner, oil tank, and side cover), then my cad work from JD Plating.

While I was at Morrie's Place, I had to pick up the 2011 Triumph calender, since my 2010 one is running out fast. What better place to prop all this up for a picture than against a Harley pillow (I know, I know, but if it weren't for Harley Davidson, I'd currently have nothing to ride. I know some of you guys have a few Harleys in your fleet as well) . . .

[Linked Image]

Here are some closer shots of the oil tank and side cover and some before pics of the same:

Side cover . . .
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Oil tank . . .
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

And here is my batch of cadmium plated parts. I haven't had a chance to sort it out yet, but I am hoping it is all there. Jose at JD Plating (1424 12th Street, Waukegan IL, Phone 847-662-6484) charged me US $85.00 for this batch, and had it done the day after I dropped it off. He threw in a 2011 Monthly Planning Guide as well, so I should be set for 2011 calendars.

[Linked Image]

Now I just have to sort it all back into those 40 little plastic sandwich baggies to await start of reassembly.

Some more heresy -- gotta finish my CL 350 Honda before I jump back to the TR6!
Posted By: bykerhd

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/22/10 3:34 am

The parts look fantastic TR6Ray.
Is the oil tank painted ? And, if so, what kind of paint ?
I'm hoping to have a tank, and a whole pile of other parts, for a '66 T120R look ALMOST as nice sometime this winter.
Posted By: Literacy Bikes

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/22/10 1:28 pm

Originally Posted By: TR6Ray
Matt, Thanks for the encouragement. I googled up your MySpace page for Literacy Bikes -- bicycles & books -- I like that. I see you customize customers' bicycles. My current bicycle is from circa 1961 (3 yrs older than my TR6), so I doubt you could do much with it. It is a Seneca one-speed that I got from a local hardware store when Kennedy was still the president. I still ride it. Like a Triumph, it just needs stuff like fresh wheel bearing grease and tires occasionally.


the myspace is sadly outdated...
I graduated with my engineering degree and quickly have had to adjust to working a regular career and tinkering with bikes (of all sorts) on the side.
We're slowly working on a new website with a dedicated .com, but its taking time.
I actually just restored a late 60's Schwinn Typhoon for a good friend of mine with great results!

again, keep up the good work!
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/22/10 1:48 pm

Originally Posted by bykerhd
The parts look fantastic TR6Ray.
Is the oil tank painted ? And, if so, what kind of paint ?
I'm hoping to have a tank, and a whole pile of other parts, for a '66 T120R look ALMOST as nice sometime this winter.

bykerhd,

The tank and side cover are painted, not powder coated. I am sorry to say that I don't even know exactly what is on there, other than that it is a PPG Base Coat / Clear Coat. The guy does his own colors -- does not get them from Hutchinson like many painters do, but it looks good to me. I had it painted through Morrie's Place in Ringwood IL.

They use a local painter that does their restoration work, and I don't even know his name. I was told that he does not do work for individuals, but for shops only. Consequently, I had no actual contact with him. I went that route because I saw a bike just like mine that he had just finished and it looked good. After the fact, I wish I had insisted on talking to him directly, because I would have insisted that he paint the bottom of the petrol tank (pin stripe, and the two colors) exactly as the original paint pattern was. I guess it only matters to me, because it won't show, but he didn't carry the pin stripes back close enough to the petcocks. Aside from that, I am very pleased with the job.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/23/10 8:24 pm

I've had a chance to sort out all of my hardware that I got plated in white cadmium. It all came out looking good, and I got everything back that I had turned in. I'm happy with JD Plating's work, and will plan on taking another batch there when I need to. In case anyone wants to know, the shop is located at 1424 12th Street, Waukegan Illinois, USA. The phone is 847-662-6484.

I think it is a one-man operation. At least for now, Jose is opening the shop at 4:00 a.m. and leaving at noon. I think that is to avoid the afternoon heat, so the hours may change with the season. Anyway, he won't be there to answer the phone in the afternoon.

{Edit} He told me that he does not accept shipped parts or ship them back. He is busy enough with local work that he does not have time to deal with shipping. If you are local, he does great work.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 10/14/10 3:37 am

Well, it's been about three weeks since I updated this (or even touched the old TR6), so I did a little bit today. A while back, I started to dress out the fuel tank. Here, I was chasing all the 1/4-26 threaded holes . . .

[Linked Image]

I got the chrome center trim strip and the parcel carrier put on alright. I was going to put a small fiber washer under each post of the parcel carrier (they are lying next to the tank in this picture), but could not make that work. There isn't a lot of thread engagement to begin with, and it just wouldn't sit down right with the washers. The idea was to be gentle with the clear coat. Oh well, they were never on there to start with . . .

[Linked Image]

Then I ran into trouble with the base plates for the rubber knee pads. I posted a question on this over on the Triumph Bulletin Board part of this forum . . .

Click here for that post.

I wound up buying another set of base plates to work with the new rubber pieces, and wrestled them into place today. It took more than a couple of tries, and I had to stop myself from losing my temper and flinging the tank across the room. I'm glad I was not the person who used to have the job of sub-assembling these at the Triumph Factory back in the day! That guy probably got about 2 minutes per tank to do the job. I can easily see why they started gluing on the kneepads on later models. After a short ride to clear my head, I came back home and got them together O.K. Compared to that, the badges and center-front chrome trim strips were fairly easy. I still have to rebuild or replace the petcocks, but the rest of the tank is done . . .

[Linked Image]

Here are before and after pics of the top of the tank . . .

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 12/01/10 7:15 am



Such a great project Ray. I absolutely love my TR6,but wish it could have been half as original as yours,despite only coming from the second owner!

Good choice with the paint looks great. I have to ask though,where did you get the information for the side cover sticker,all the information i dragged up seemed to say the side cover was plain until 69? Don't mean to knock it just asking.

Rod
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 12/10/10 1:51 am

Originally Posted by Redmoggy

I have to ask though,where did you get the information for the side cover sticker,all the information i dragged up seemed to say the side cover was plain until 69? Don't mean to knock it just asking.

Rod


The short answer is that I think I made several mistaken assumptions. I believe you are correct, and I should have left the side cover blank. I see that your '66 has "Trophy 650" on there as well, probably from the PO.

Faulty Assumtion #1: My side cover was blank when I got the bike -- not even a ghost of a decal on it. The PO (original owner) was not sure if it ever had anything there. It was also very rusty and I assumed the decal had just disappeared during the barn years.

Faulty Assumtion #2: I got sort of hung up on whether it should say "Trophy" or "Tiger", and never considered that maybe it should say nothing at all. I read that the TR6 was called a Trophy until it was renamed "Tiger" in 1969. I believe the T100 did have "Tiger" on the side in 1964, and the T120 had "Bonneville" on there. I assumed that the TR6 would have also had a decal.

Faulty Assumtion #3: The pictures I was able to find either did not show the drive side clearly or they were restorations in progress. I assumed the decal just didn't show, or that it had not been placed yet.

I had posted into an old thread over on the B.O. forum last April (wasn't aware of this forum back then) regarding this question: British Only forum post.

Evidently my thought at the time was if the bike is ever back together, and if it is ever in a show, and if the judge says that the decal is wrong, I'll just ask him to prove it.

So, Rod, since you made this astute observation, let me ask you about the back of the seat cover. Maybe you have researched that as well? My seat is blank on the back. Any original pics I have seen don't show the back view. Most replacement seat covers say "Triumph" in gold script on the back (like your '66). My PO again cannot remember, but told me that if the seat ever said anything, he thought it may have had the Triumph logo in silver. I like the look of the gold script, but is it correct? Anyone else want to chime in here?
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 12/10/10 5:37 am



Have to say Ray im not sure about the seat. I have found a picture in a 64 advertisement that seems to show that your seat should have been blank. I'll post a pic.

Like i say,dont think i was knocking your bike. Kind of hoped you had found an answer i had not. At least you chose the nice decal (i have the same tucked away!) unlike the one that was on mine.

Oh,and when/if you do show it,ignore the judges and know it alls. I had a guy stop me and tell me my bike was perfect except for the clamps on fork gaiters!

Rod
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 12/10/10 5:42 am

http://www.classicbike.biz/Triumph/Brochures/1960s/64TriumphBrochure2.pdf
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 12/11/10 6:01 am

Rod, I appreciate your comments, and I do think you are right about the blank side cover till 1969. If I had realised that sooner, I would have left the decal off. Since I have the decal under the clearcoat, it ain't coming off now. I like the look and also like the name "Trophy 650".

I had seen those 1964 ads you posted. It always makes you wonder, when the only back view is sort of an artist's sketch. I'm thinking I will put on the seat cover that has the gold script logo on the back, again, just because I like it. I'm not quite as hung up now about minor changes as I was when I started on this, but I do want to keep it mostly appearing as original.

I think the clamps on your fork gaiters look better than the repop ones that are supposed to go on there. I bought a set of those, but I plan to bead blast the zinc off them and get them cad plated when I turn in my engine studs etc.

I haven't made much progress for quite a while. I built my back wheel, but it is still sitting on the truing stand. It's all dialed in for runout and offset, but I decided to buy a spoke torque wrench just to be sure. It took a week to get here, and now it isn't right. I talked to them today and am sending it back to be recalibrated. This may be the longest wheel build in history! Meanwhile, I'm finishing up the remodel on the bathroom for my wife. She's been more than patient. I hope to get back to work on my bike soon, and throw some more pictures on here.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 02/11/11 12:52 am

Well, long time -- no updates. That's mostly because I haven't done much, but I can add a little to my thread.

Back before Thanksgiving last year, I started to build my back wheel. It went O.K., after I got a few questions answered from the experts on the Triumph Forum. When I was about done, I decided that I really should do it up right and buy a spoke torque wrench. I looked around on-line and ended up ordering a wrench from FASST. Here's the nice little case it came in . . .

[Linked Image]

FASST will sell you a spoke wrench that is preset to your specified torque, but I decided I wanted an adjustable micrometer type wrench. I also went around and measured spoke nipple sizes and found that both my Harleys used the same size nipple, but that was a different size from my new Buchanon's for the TR6. Both the old Hondas used the same size as each other, but it was different from the Harley and Triumph sizes. Nothing is easy or cheap. I ended up with an adjustable wrench and three different sizes of inserts for it . . .

[Linked Image]

With the holiday coming up, it took about 2 weeks for UPS to get it to me, and I didn't do anything else on the bike while I waited. I had the back wheel all dialed in nicely for runout and offset. Here are a couple pics of the exotic offset gage that I made from my scrap bin. I used a piece of top rail for a shower door and added a piece of threaded rod (ground flat on one end) and a couple of jam nuts. O.K.,some things are easy and cheap. Being channel, the door rail was very rigid and nicely flat. I used my vernier caliper depth gage and machinist's square to set the threaded rod exactly at my needed offset. I made the tool long enough to lay across the brake drum and reach over to the wheel rim . . .

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

When I got the wrench from UPS, I backed it off to a low torque setting and started going around the wheel, hitting every third spoke. After I had all the spokes to at least that intial torque, I adjusted to a higher torque and started around again. Right away, I noticed that the wrench was clicking at the higher torque setting without turning the spoke nipples. I wound up calling FASST. They were real nice and paid shipping for me to send it back to them. They fixed it and returned it. With the Christmas/New Year holidays, it took about 4 weeks to make the round trip. When I got it back it worked great. I went ahead and finished up the back wheel. Here are some before/after pictures . . .

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The front wheel was pretty easy, with a couple hang-ups. The brake panel was very pitted and corroded. I went after it with sand paper, working down through the grades, then used the polishing wheel to buff out the sanding scratches. It took forever, and it doesn't look as good to me as most of the polished aluminum I see on here.

I was using black emery compound on a spiral sewn cloth wheel. I got on Caswell's site and reviewed their recommendations again. They say to use a spiral sewn sisal wheel before the cloth wheel. O.K., so I ordered a couple sisal wheels from them. I kept on using what I had in the meantime and eventually got it to what I consider "just O.K."

Then I snapped on the new brake shoes and went to insert the brake panel -- only to find that the shoes wouldn't go into the drum. I had not had either the front or back drum rebored. The bike is low mileage, and the drums only had about .0015 runout. I went back and read Swan's thread about his Goldie, where he said he was going to have his shoes re-arced by Vintage Brake. I didn't want to do that, so I hemmed and hawed a couple days, leaving it all alone. I finally snapped the shoes loose and laid them into the drum. The radius was a close match and the spacing measured O.K. Turned out I must have had one shoe slightly out of position. One little hammer tap and everything dropped into place. Now you can see what's taking me so long -- stupidity, leading to frustration, along with general procrastination!

Anyway, here are some before/after pics of the front wheel . . .

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That's a re-pop hub cap that I bought for less than the price of re-chroming the old one. As you can see, I haven't bought tires yet. At the rate I am going, I figure their shelf life would be up before I was ready to use them.

Somewhere in the midst of the wheel building, I decided that I really should buy a torque wrench. I hate to admit it, but I have actually taught classes on proper torque procedure, and instructed people how to use various types of torque wrenches. We used to insist on their use on the job. However, I have gone almost 60 years without actually owning one of my own -- you know how we all think we have an educated feel for the right torque. smirk I started out looking to save a buck, and decided the torque wrench was the wrong place to do this. So, I wound up with a brand new Snap-On Techwrench that has a range from 5 to 100 lb-ft . . .

[Linked Image]

This thing is super. Among other things, it will read out digitally in lb-ft, lb-in, or Nm at the press of a button; it beeps when you hit 98% of your preset torque value; it shuts itself off automatically two minutes after you quit using it. That's nice because I don't have to remember to spin down a micrometer handle before stowing the wrench.

Next step is to start putting the frame together. A rolling chassis would be nice. Right off the get-go, I hit another wall. There is powder coat in the threads in several places, where I thought the holes had been protected.

I had already bought some CEI taps and dies to fix some buggered threads, but now I need some more. I thought this bike used all 26 tpi, but luckily I checked with my thread gage anyway. I found out I need 1/2-20 and 9/16-20 taps. O.K., those are on order, and I hope they are hard enough to cut out the powder coat. At the price I am paying, they might be made out of gold.

That's it for now. Taps should be here in a couple days and I can hit it again.

Redmoggy, if you are reading this, I saw where you said you popped into town to pick up a 7/16-26 tap. Where exactly does a person do that? You must have a good shop nearby.
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 02/11/11 1:09 am



Them Taps don't half hurt the pocket! Way back when i used to just cut a V along the threaded section of an old bolt and wind it in to clear threads!

I'm jealous as hell with your wheels, my TR6's are rough as and the T120's are next on my list. I'll probably build them and get a shop to torque them though.

If it wasnt for the frustration you would be bored by now.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 02/11/11 3:45 pm

Originally Posted By: Redmoggy


Them Taps don't half hurt the pocket! Way back when i used to just cut a V along the threaded section of an old bolt and wind it in to clear threads!


A groove in an old bolt was my first thought, but I'm such a rookie with Brit Bikes, that I don't have any junk spares lying around. My only hope of recouping the cost of these taps and dies and whitworth wrenches and whatnot else is to use them on more Brit bikes down the road. I know where there is a Tiger Cub not being used. Hmmmmm.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 02/16/11 5:10 pm

The taps arrived, so I cleaned out some threaded holes and started pieceing together some black iron. I have no bike lift, so I started with the main frame hung up by the neck.

[Linked Image]

With the sidestand and center stand on, I realized I hadn't ordered the rubber pad for the center stand toe lever. A friend sold me a couple for $5.00 and threw in a cold one. We then spent a couple hours contemplating his 1940 HD (80 in Flat Head). 71 yrs old and carrying current plates, it's one of his daily riders in the better weather. Most of it is in original paint and has nice patina as a survivor. Wish I had taken a picture.

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Late last summer, I came out of retirement and drove a truck for a few days. While I was working, a friend called and said he had a customer who wanted to get rid of a bike lifting jack. The guy had bought it and never used it. It was in his way. I couldn't go after it, but my friend went and picked it up for me for free. It was at the house when I got home. Missing one rubber pad, but otherwise as new. It has outriggers and multiple leveling adjustments. I may use it further along.

[Linked Image]

I thought I'd use it for the TR6 after the rear frame was on, but I didn't like the way it sat. At this point, it's like me -- sort of heavy in the rear end. So I put down a carpet pad, lashed the center stand, and hung the bike up the other way.

[Linked Image]

I'm going so slowly that I've had some trouble remembering what goes where, and could find absolutely no pre-teardown pictures of the drive side of the bike, even though I thought I had taken them. For a novice, it's like putting toghether a jigsaw puzzle without the picture that's always on the front of the box. Finally found about 25 pics that I never got transferred to the computer in the work room. Life is good again.

Should be about ready to put the first piece of painted sheet metal in place (rear fender) and get a glimpse of some color. I'll keep crawling along.

Posted By: R Moulding

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 02/16/11 5:49 pm



Good on ya Ray. How cool is that feeling, sitting down after a couple hours and looking at some freshly assembled parts. I assume with a beer?
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 03/15/11 1:28 am

Originally Posted by Redmoggy
How cool is that feeling, sitting down after a couple hours and looking at some freshly assembled parts. I assume with a beer?


Hey Rod, it's mostly been coffee. I haven't had enough parts together yet to warrant a beer, but I did stop at the local pub and order up a Guinness which I raised in a silent toast to your TR6 the day you put it back on the road. That was a warm (37 deg F) day here, so I had the Road King out for the first time this year.

Figured I'd post something here since it has been about a month. I wasn't going to buy tires yet, cause I have not even started on the engine work. Couldn't help myself. I decided to at least make it a roller before commencing with the engine. After some debate, I settled on a set of Avon's (Speedmaster front and SM Mark II rear). So, it still isn't a roller, but it's at least a Triumph Tripod:

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This was my first experience mounting a tire with rim locks. I'd almost rather wrestle with warlocks (not quite). Next time it will be easier. Also, I read some discussion on the Triumph forum about placement of the rim locks. Mine are 180 deg apart -- directly opposite one another. I re-used the old rim locks, but got the metal part cad plated and used new rivets from the hardware store. With a bit of scrubbing, the rubber part was still like new.

Then I had to scout around and find some wheel weights. I didn't want tape-on; I was looking for the chrome type that fit over the spoke nipple. The Harley shop won't sell them because they don't want you to do your tires yourself. Found some at a small local shop. I was pleasantly surprised that the back wheel only needed 1/2 ounce. Have not balanced the front yet.

When I got this bike, it still had the original Dunlops from Meriden (46 yrs old and they still hold air). The front was the ribbed pattern, and I wanted to keep that look, which was the main reason I went with the Avon's. I asked the geezer cruisers that I ride with if they had ever used Avon tires. One guy said, "I've never tried their tires, but I have used some of their lipstick and nail polish." (He was kidding -- he's one of the meanest old dudes you'll ever see.) Anyway, here's the front:

[Linked Image]

The Avons don't use the yellow dot to show the lightest part of the tire. They also have no directional arrows, in case anyone was wondering. I like the look of them -- hope they ride O.K.

I also re-used the old tail light assembly, after scrubbing off the aluminum barn roof paint. I put in a new gasket and a 12V bulb. Added a ground wire by laying it along the old harness and heat shrink wrapping them together. I plan to go with a single point ground. It sounds like a good idea, especially with the paint and powder coat.

I guess the next step is to install the roller bearing kit I got some time ago to replace the steering stem balls, and then piece the front end together. I'm kinda anxious to see how that looks.

I also got some new seat foam and a new cover, but they sent me a black cover by mistake. Mine should have the gray top panel. I think I'd like the black seat better, but I'm staying with the original look. The other cover should be here soon, so that will be another mini-project. I didn't get the seat pan powder coated when I had the rest done, so I need to get that done.

I never planned to do any engine or tranny work myself. I had planned to apprentice myself to a local guru who was going to do it for me and let me watch. He has had health issues all the past year, so the heart of this bike is still sitting in a big, blue Rubbermaid container in the corner of my little workshop. He's getting along better these days, and I'm hoping he will feel up to it when the weather gets warmer. If not, I'll venture into it myself. Meanwhile, my shop helper uses the engine container as a handy resting spot:

[Linked Image]
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 03/16/11 3:27 am


Not enough parts? I had a beer after fitting the seat catch! Appreciate you raising a glass, and proper beer to.

I had the Avons on mine for a while, nice enough tyre but i found the front would get stuck in tram lines in the road, and the rear when pushed lived up to it's nickname (slide master). I would put them back on if i wanted originality but i much prefer the TT100's i have now.

Still wish i had as many proper Triumph bits on my bike as you do. Hope your engine man gets back on his feet. Have a good read on here lots of good information when screwing these engines together.

I have an article saved, written by John Healey on covering the seats. Never tried myself but it looks like a challenge.
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 03/17/11 9:30 am


Just been reading through again. That paint is so nice!

You mention at the beginning you are thinking of using a Boyer. They are a perfectly good bit of kit but personally i think if you intend to use the bike you could do much better. I pulled the boyer that came with my bike and swapped it for a Tri Spark unit. The initial reason was that i liked the idea of it all being in the points cover, no black box to mount. It transformed the bike, even with the Boyer set correctly with a strobe and running 98 gas it would still pink something terrible. The Tri Spark sorted that, has gave me a nice low even idle (despite the 2.5 lb lighter flywheel), pulls better, is such a nice looking bit of kit and does not try and cut the bike out when i flick high beam. Something to think about.

Also the previous conversation about the seat. The once bright gold Triumph logo on the back of mine has faded to an almost uniform silver. So perhaps your previous owner is correct?

And the taps and dies, Christchurch is a great place. My machine shop put me onto a place that keeps Cycle, BSF and BSW on the shelf. They even had the 13/16 hand reamer for my cam bushes!

Sorry Ray, this happens when i get bored!
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 03/18/11 1:23 am

Rod, thanks for the info. I will take a further look at Tri-Spark. I would need to try to return the Boyer, but maybe can, since the box is still sealed. I was not aware that you could get by without the black box. That alone sounds good, and I have been seeing other testimonials such as yours on improved startability, good idling, and general better performance after ditching the Boyer in favor of the Tri-Spark.

Interesting that the seat logo faded to silver. When they sent me the wrong cover (all black), it had the gold logo on the back. It looked a little too "glittery" to my taste, though I'm sure it would look good after it faded just a bit. Anyway, I decided to go with the non-logo cover. It should be coming soon. I'm thinking that if my original seat ever had the logo, there would be at least a ghost of it left. I have a couple of 40 yr old Hondas that still have the logo on the seat like when new.

It would be nice to have an in-town source for things like those taps and dies. When you're hot after something it's good to just go out and get it. Still, British Tools & Fasteners have given me pretty quick delivery. Every time I buy something, I keep thinking it's the last I'll need -- how naive!

You must really be bored to slog back through this stuff again. Sounds like you need to get out and ride. I put on about 80 miles today. Someday (I hope) it'll be on a Triumph!
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 03/31/11 4:26 am

Well, I've been making up my versions of some of the "service tools" from the Triumph Manual, using whatever I could put my hands on, as I have been getting ready to put the front end back together. First thing was the "Fork Stanchion Removal and Refitting Tool". I begged an old, rusty cap nut from a friend. Drilled and tapped it to accept 1/2-13 threaded rod, then cut/ground the hex off to come up with this . . .

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I'm also actually set up for 1969 and up bikes, because the first one of these that I made wouldn't engage more than about three turns into the threads on my stanchions. I should have checked first, but the nut was supposed to be off a '63. Anyway, it turned out to have UNF threads. Begged a second cap nut from another friend and repeated the process. This gives me a tool with changeable heads! This thing works great -- I highly recommend it.

Next up was finding a socket to fit the cap nuts that I'm actually going to use. I took them out of the stanchions during teardown by using a whopping big Crescent Wrench (adjustable spanner). I could have used this for reassembly, but I had the nuts re-chromed, and I also decided I should actually install them to the proper torque. My largest Whitworth socket was 3/4, and I needed WW 7/8, which is 1.480 across flats. British Tools and Fasteners did not list a socket that big. I called Jon, and he did some checking. King Dick makes a six point, 3/4 inch drive, impact socket WW 7/8, for $54.00 plus shipping. It's probably an excellent tool, but overkill for what I need to do. I wound up going to the TSC Store and buying this for $6.00 . . .

[Linked Image]

This socket was a bit oversize for its intended 1-7/16" size, so it did not take too much effort to file the flats until it was a perfect fit for my cap nuts. I also ground off the end of the socket, because it had a great big lead-in chamfer, and the cap nuts are fairly thin. While I was doing all the grinding, I wiped off the original size stamped on the side of the socket and restamped it 7/8. (Kind of the same way some eBay sellers go about creating matching number bikes. I even managed a double hit on my seven stamp.) laughing

Here's what I wound up with . . .

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For over a year, I've been thinking I should scrounge up a little piece of steel plate and make one of those Front Fork Alignment Gages that they show in the manual. I got to thinking how much easier it would be to make it from a scrap of plywood. Then I read a post on here where someone said that they did exactly that. Nuff said, that's what I did . . .

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I checked my new gage for flatness, using my surface plate (my ancient table saw with a heavy cast iron table) and a feeler gage. Dressed it with a flat file till it met muster, and set it aside.

I read all the threads on here about Triumph front suspension woes (Lord, there's a lot to read!) to see what pitfalls to watch for. One thing I made special note of was John Healys' caution about the length of the bolts used to attach the fender stays to the sliders. If over 1/2" thread length, you can put a dent in the slider to where it will lock up. Mine were O.K., but that is certainly something to watch for.

There's also a lot of discussion on here about fork oil. The manual says to use 20w motor oil. I know a lot of people use ATF. I read a post by Mr. Whatley, where he told someone to use oil that was actually called "fork oil". Sounded like a good idea, so I decided to give the old girl some American blood . . .

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Harley sells three types of fork oil: Type E is about equal to 5W, Type B is about equal to 15W, and Type H/D is about equal to 20W, which is what I used. A note on the back of the bottle says that Screamin' Eagle Performance fork oil is "Not intended for street use" laughing

With all that stuff sorted out, I went ahead and put in my new roller bearing setup that's been on the shelf for lo these many months. I read the CYA note that came inside the box from John Healy, where he said that improper assembly or adjustment could lead to "death or worse". I had to think about that for a minute, but finally realized he was right (as usual) -- there are conditions worse than death! The Triumph manual describes the same adjustment procedure as the Harley manual, so it's probably correct. (I put that in here to see if anyone was still reading by this point.)

Now I needed one more thing -- a spare front axle. I went to several places looking for 11/16 steel rod, but nobody sells it. They jump from 5/8 to 3/4. Finally found a rusty old grade stake at the truck shop where I used to work. It rolled straight on my surface plate, so I cleaned it up and used it. Got no idea where it came from, but it was hard as glass trying to cut it. I need to hit some swap meets so that I'll have a few spare bits around the place here.

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You need that spare "axle" bolted in place to use the fork alignment gage. The manual says the gage should contact the sliders at the four indicated locations with no more than 1/64 inch clearance. On mine, the gage contacted at three points, and there was a .010 gap at the fourth, so I left it at that. I wasn't anxious to loosen the pinch bolts and pound on my newly powdercoated top lug.

I found out what Stuart was talking about in some of his tire discussions wherein he said that Triumph did not leave a lot of extra space for installing front tires, and that you have to be very careful what size you buy . . .

[Linked Image]

With my Avon Speedmaster inflated, it touched both sides going in. I guess with some tires, you have to let the air out to do this.

BTW, that Avon balanced nicely with a 1 oz wheel weight.

Sooooooooooo, now I (finally) have a roller . . .

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
It's been two years and two days since I dragged this thing home. I didn't touch it for a long time, and then it took forever and a day for the paint and chrome work. I know that some on here have built bikes from scratch in a lot less time than that, but I'll get there eventually. The good thing about retirement is that progress reports are voluntary!

Posted By: R Moulding

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 03/31/11 8:48 am


That looks awesome Ray! Any news on your engine guy, i would be chomping on the bit about now!
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 04/01/11 2:44 am

Thanks, Rod. Nothing yet. I'll keep plugging along till I find that all my parts boxes are empty, then do something about the engine. I did get my seat pan powdercoated, and now have the new foam and seat cover in hand. I also need to clean all the contacts on the harness and check continuity, etc, and strap it back on. Then there's still the hand controls and a few other odds and ends.

I read your tuning request post and the replies -- looks like that will be good to print out and save for future reference. Good luck with it!
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 04/07/11 12:22 am

More puzzle pieces spread out:

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With the handlebars back on the rebuilt front end, I dug out the controls that have been languishing in a storage box. I absolutely hate mixing stuff like this together and taking it to the plater. I waste a lot of time later figuring out exactly which screw, etc. goes where. Anyway, using my old pictures for reference, I got these bits sorted out. No pics of them on the bike though. I need to order a couple of pieces that got lost in the plater's vat, and I forgot to do so some time back. I wrapped the sub-assemblies and put 'em back in storage for now. They look nice, though, compared to what I started with.

Speaking of handlebars, has anyone seen hand grips like this?

[Linked Image]

I remember getting all-black versions of these from JC Whitney as a kid to put on my 450 Hondas (to kill some of the buzz), but had never seen them with this white band around the edge. The white band is actually a separate piece of rubber/plastic. These are at least 40+ years old, and were on the bike when it came out of the barn. The PO doesn't remember if they came on the bike or if he put them on. They were very tatty, but I got them off without destroying them, and they cleaned up just fine. I didn't like them at first sight, but they have grown on me. I plan to use them. They say, "A.R.T., Made in Italy, Brattano". Any chance these were original to the bike?

I also stuck the rubber bits onto the kick and shift levers. A friend told me a couple years ago that the best glue for hand grips and such is plain old hair spray. He was right. Spray the rubber piece inside, and the hair spray works like rubber lube. Unlike some glues, it gives plenty of adjustment time. However, once it sets up, it is very strong. Hey -- it held up those beehive hairdos back when my bike was new.

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I maybe should have plated the hardware in chrome also, but it had white cad originally, so that's what I stayed with.

Following in lock-step (and a year or two behind) rmak and his '65 TR6SR build, I wanted to keep the original old Lucas headlight. I had the same problems he did.

(For some volatile lighting opinions and an account of "exploding deer population", click here.

My old Lucas unit was even worse, though. The center socket was loose and could easily be rotated completely around. The reflector inside was tinted in gloomy shades of brown and black. Being a slow learner, I picked up a used one which only had the problem of rust and peeling chrome around the outside edge. I cleaned all this off and used a small artist's brush to apply some Rustoleum silver (doesn't show anyway when inserted into the rim). I put in new 12V bulbs and a new harness grommet. Anyway, the Lucas look is still intact for now:

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Over the winter, I also managed to clear out enough floor space for a parts washer, which I modified to include a filter:


[Linked Image]

And, recently, I built a shelf over it so I could add a bead blast cabinet. Plan is to set the cabinet up outside on the Black & Decker Workmate bench. I will only use this outside, so the shelf could be up a bit above the floor. It's only here for storage. I made the shelf a little oversize for containers of blast media, or whatever. I'm tight on space:

[Linked Image]

I've been thinking about an engine stand. The table in my basement isn't heavy enough to handle the weight. I read all the stuff I could find on the Britbike Forum. Several people said they don't really use a stand except for light work, storage, or display. They prefer to work on the engine in the frame, to enable loosening/torquing the heavier fasteners. Well, I already had my engine out in a box. I was about to build a small bench to hold it, when I got to noticing the Larin bike jack that someone gave me a while back.

[Linked Image]

Those four, individually adjustable frame supports have an M16 thread, and the holes are spaced about right. After a bit of measuring, cutting, bending and drilling, I made up some simple brackets to replace them, and my engine is looking at daylight for the first time in a long time:

[Linked Image]

I used 1/4" thick steel, so the supports are pretty rigid and strong. They are also (I hope) out of the way for most of the work I need to do. Even using mild steel, it was kind of a job to bend a tight radius without a brake or a torch, but I have got some bodacious hammers.

Here are the front supports (11" tall):

[Linked Image]

And the rear (3" tall):

[Linked Image]

I think this will work pretty well, because I can raise/lower it, roll it around easily, and it seems very stable. It puts the engine on a good level to access it from a roll-around shop stool:

[Linked Image]


Here's why I need a parts washer and bead blaster . . . Got Dirt?????

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

So long for now!
Posted By: Zunspec

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 04/09/11 4:57 pm

Hello Ray,

I only just caught up with your TR6 thread, a great project being worked very well would be my opinion, will be a cracker when completed. I could certainly learn a thing or two from you on record keeping and organisation. The mess in my workshop is down to a holographic working method, thats my excuse and I'm sticking to it laughing

Cheers Geoff

(500 Speed Twin)
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 04/09/11 11:00 pm

Originally Posted By: Zunspec
Hello Ray,

I could certainly learn a thing or two from you on record keeping and organisation. The mess in my workshop is down to a holographic working method, thats my excuse and I'm sticking to it laughing

Cheers Geoff

(500 Speed Twin)


Geoff, Thanks for the encouragement. Some people worry about record keeping and organization, while others forge ahead with the holographic method and actually get their bike built! laughing

Hopefully we both get on the road eventually.

Ray
Posted By: Zunspec

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 04/10/11 9:30 am

The "Holographic" workshop method laugh laugh blush



Cheers Geoff
(nice engine stand solution BTW)
Posted By: TR6Ray

Infrastructure and other woes getting in my way: - 12/30/11 4:18 am

I see my last post was back in April, and it's now almost January, so maybe it's time to update this thread a bit. Warning -- this is gonna get wordy. Here's how I spent my "summer vacation".

Since I had bought a cheapo bead blast cabinet, I needed to get an air compressor to run it. The only place I could think to put it was over my stairs that go from the garage to the basement. This meant moving a furnace that used to hang from the ceiling there, and then building a small platform over the stairs for the compressor. Here's how that came out:

[Linked Image]

Of course, once I had the furnace down, I decided it was too old, too big, and needed to be replaced, so I bought a little Modine Hot Dawg and installed it a few feet over. It does a fine job and is very welcome right about now:

[Linked Image]

Of course, this meant making a new exhaust stack out through the roof and patching the old vent location.

Then I ran black pipe to five different useful spots around the garage to supply pressurized air, like this:

[Linked Image]

I ran all the pipe above the drop ceiling. Since I had a lot of the tiles out, I decided they were looking pretty ratty -- so I decided to paint all the side walls and put in new ceiling tiles.

By now you are probably wondering how all this relates to my TR6 project bike. Remember, all this started out so that I could bead blast my own Triumph parts without having to take them to a friend's house and use his bead blaster. Grrrr! I'm an idiot!

O.K., I got all that stuff done, and tried out the blast cabinet. I had misjudged how heavy and awkward it was to lift down off a shelf. Also, I couldn't see inside it without a light. Also, it leaked dust and I was breathing it in. Soooo I rigged it up onto a little cart and added a light and a dust extractor. Now I can plug it in, roll it outside, hook up an air hose, and have at it.

[Linked Image]

Amongst all that, my old boss kept calling me to come back and "fill in" for someone who was off. The TR6 hasn't progressed much since last April.

I did manage to come up with the few bits I was missing for the handlebar controls and the gage mounts and get that stuff assembled (remembering to add ground wires for each light, since I read Mr. Whatley's excellent treatise on Single Point Grounding):

[Linked Image]

Then I decided to do the seat before I chickened out. This was an ordeal, for sure. I had the pan powder coated, had new foam, and a new seat cover. The problem is that my powdercoat guy put on two layers because the pan was a little rough. It came out looking really nice, but this seat has the little clips that hold the vinyl onto the lower lip around the bottom edge of the pan. By the time there were two layers of powder coat on the inside and on the outside of the lip, and the vinyl was stretched over it, the clips were way too small to snap on. The pan was originally about .060" thick. With the powder, it was now .135" thick. I looked all over creation, both physically and on the internet for different clips -- no such luck.

A friend with a T140E redid his seat last summer and he told me he thought I could just use contact cement. I had my doubts, but he told me how strong the 3M Super Trim Adhesive is. O.K., I went for it. The problem we have here is that I could only find it in a spray can (a big $25 can). If you haven't used this stuff before, you basically spray both surfaces and then wait at least 4 minutes, but no longer than 30 minutes to put the surfaces together -- get 'em lined up before they touch!

I masked off the pan where I didn't want the goo, and thought out the whole process. Problem is, I was trying to hurry too much. The whole thing came out O.K. except I got the foam pushed a little out to one side, and, by tugging too hard, I ripped a piece of the vinyl off at a seam (a little flap that is supposed to fold under the bottom and be pop riveted to the pan at the front).

Next day, I decided I had to redo the redo. With careful low heat from a heat gun, I got the contact cement to yield and removed the cover. Then I was able to put the pan in my parts washer and dissolve the remaining glue. Next step, I ground off all the powdercoat around the inside and outside of the pan lip. Since this won't show anyway, I used a small brush and primed and painted the area where I had removed the powder coat.

While the paint was drying, I took the cover to a friend who has a heavy duty sewing machine. We were able to fix the part I tore. Finally, I got the cover in place and was able to use the appropriate clips as per the Meriden Factory. I got the seat installed back on the bike, and even got the latch working:

[Linked Image]

Now there's just a great big hole where that engine & transmission need to go back in. I could put on the coils, main harness, side cover, and oil and fuel tanks, but the engine really needs to be in there first, so I don't mangle something when I do try to put it back in. The engine is still sitting on its stand. I guess it's time to take the plunge! I'll continue to make haste slowly -- next step is to buy some more Brit tools.

[Linked Image]

Every so often, when I feel like I have made no progress, I look back to the starting point. Here's the P.O. shedding crocodile tears over the sale of his TR6 which he had since new, 45 years all told. Here he had just rolled it out of the barn. Maybe I should have been crying instead of him?? He's really a great guy and I have enjoyed our friendship during this project.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Infrastructure and other woes getting in my way: - 12/30/11 7:36 pm


I'm really jealous of your shop Ray, it's so clean! Seat looks great, i have to look into doing my TR6 one, it came as a complete seat and is showing signs of an impending tear. Not so bad i have 18000 miles on it now!

Take the plunge and get into that engine.

Rod
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Infrastructure and other woes getting in my way: - 01/17/12 4:18 am

Originally Posted by Redmoggy

I'm really jealous of your shop Ray, it's so clean! Seat looks great, i have to look into doing my TR6 one, it came as a complete seat and is showing signs of an impending tear. Not so bad i have 18000 miles on it now!

Take the plunge and get into that engine.

Rod

Thanks, Rod. Regarding the seat, you and I discussed earlier whether or not the Trimph logo should be in gold on the back. I got a copy of David Gaylin's book, Triumph Bonneville and TR6 Motorcycle Restoration Guide when they put out the new revised edition. He states that the stencil does not appear on the back of the seat until 1966, so mine should be blank. On yours, the stencil was different (simple, unbordered design) from 1966 to early 1969. Then from 1969 on, they went with the stencil that all the seat covers now come with. I kind of like it on my seat, so am planning to leave it even if not correct.

I'm working toward getting into the engine. I had always planned to have the local guru do it while I sat around and watched and handed him tools. Just my luck, he's quit that due to health and other issues. He's been very helpful for any questions I have had though.

Anyway, I started ordering tools from a variety of sources, and, in some cases, making my own. While waiting on tools to arrive, I went ahead and bolted on the battery box and oil tank (what a jigsaw puzzle) and the fuel tank as well. Some of that will need to come apart later, but at least I will know where I left all the bolts and grommets. Not a good picture, but here's what it looks like now (still with a gaping hole where there should be an engine and tranny --

[Linked Image]

Picked up a gasket set from my local guy. He gave me a bag from the local Harley Shop to carry the stuff home smirk --

[Linked Image]

Then tools started coming in. I know I probably don't need all these to do the job, but I'll take all the help I can get --

[Linked Image]

I made my own Z151 to split the cases, and made up a couple of wrenches for the base stud nuts on the cylinders. Those will let me torque the nuts when it goes back together so it might not leak as readily. I did this by ordering another 1/4 x 5/16 W ring spanner from British Tools & Fasteners, and bought a cheap set of crow's foot wrenches from Menard's in 3/8" drive:

[Linked Image]

Then I cut the wrench in half and ground flats on the shank to fit the two smallest crow's foot wrenches:

[Linked Image]

I also ground down the box (ring) end so that it will clear the cylinder fins:

[Linked Image]

Then I got a friend to weld them together as in the tool pic above. I also daubed on some paint to keep them from rusting. If I keep the wrench at 90 degrees to the axis of the torque wrench, I can read the torque directly from the wrench. Overkill??? Oh well, I had fun fooling around with it.

I picked up an ultrasonic cleaner from Harbor Freight, and had a little trouble getting it to do what I wanted. After some fooling around, I switched to using Simple Green in it and got slightly better results.

For a long time, I've been agonizing over how to clean my alloy engine parts. I have read every related post I could find on this forum and found that numerous people whom I respect fall on both sides of the issue -- that being glass beads Yes/No -- Good/bad?

For example:
  • Zunspec and Swan have both gotten excellent results from vapor blasting their parts.
  • Redmoggy used glass bead inside and out, followed by thorough cleaning and saturating in WD40 to seal the pores of the aluminum.
  • Hawaiian Tiger, in some cases, uses beach sand followed by using aluminum shot, followed by powdercoating all surfaces where oil will flow.
  • John Healy preaches against glass beads inside an engine, and makes a good case as always to explain his position.
  • Stuart got my attention when he said, "You might like the finish but will you like the bill for the second rebuild if you miss just one bead in the wrong oilway?"
  • There are many more, but you get the idea. I'm torn here.

I finally decided not to take the risk, so long as I could blast with soda. So, today I cleaned the glass bead media out of my blast cabinet; did some modification / fine tuning on my home-made vent system; and bought a 50# bag of soda from HF. IMHO, it worked great inside the cabinet! No muss / no fuss.

I made a trial run with my intake rocker box. The exhaust rocker box is here for comparison to show what I started with. I first cleaned it in my parts washer, then fooled around with the ultrasonic cleaner, but was not happy with the results (though the ultrasonic worked good on the rockers and spindles). I had a go with the blasting soda, which got rid of the dirt and corrosion, but it left that typical matte silver finish. Here are a couple pics that show the part after soda blast, but not yet washed off with water --

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Next, I washed and dried it and then hit it with the polish wheel, but not too agressively. I wanted it to continue to look like a sand cast part. I kind of judged by comparing the finish to what was on the inside of the rocker box, because that part had cleaned up nicely in the ultrasonic cleaner. Here's what I left it with. It may be shinier than it should be, but I'm sure that's not permanent.

[Linked Image]

I think this is going to be my method for the cyl head and cases. May have to resort to glass beads for the jugs, with adequate protection of course.

So, that's where I'm at. I still need to make a clutch/engine locking tool, but will do that when I'm ready to use it. Same for a sludge trap remover. Might also make or buy a gudgeon pin remover, although I do have a variety of hammers and drifts. laughing

Just kidding -- really! But, I've read the book, and got some of the tools, so it's time to get dangerous. (Note that I did not get a valve spring compressor, valve guide drift, reamers, etc. Some stuff I will get done by pros. I was going to buy some inside mics -- I have a good set of outside mics -- but found out a friend has dial bore gages that read in ten-thounsandths. Sooooo here we go! I'm getting anxious to see what's inside that lump of crap.
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Infrastructure and other woes getting in my way: - 01/17/12 5:42 pm


Thanks for the seat info Ray, i had know idea there were to different logo's. The gold quickly fades to silver anyway.

The soda seems to have worked out really well, i have some cycle parts left to do but i reckon on giving that a go. I have to go over the T120 engine again before i start the rebuild.

You look all set to go, we wait with baited breath............
Posted By: TR6Ray

Some progress today - 01/19/12 5:00 am

Well I got a little done today on the engine teardown. I'd like to just rip it all apart and see what's what, but I'm going slowly so I can take lots of pictures, clean parts as I go, and organize where I put stuff so I can find it later. I'm cataloging all the hardware that has to go to the cadmium plater, so I can sort it out when it comes back. For example, here's all the hardware just for the little intake manifold --

[Linked Image]

The manifold (and the ears on the carburetor) are still flat, so no one overtightened the nuts in the past, as so often seems to happen.

The only thing I see wrong so far is that one exhaust valve is stuck open. It doesn't appear to have hit the piston, rather I think it just corroded in place in the valve guide during its 41 year barn nap.

Does it count as a plug chop if you wait 41 years from the time you shut it off, until you look at the plugs? At least they look pretty good to me --

[Linked Image]

The cylinders are still at original factory bore size of 2.795 inches, at least at the top of the bores. I will check ovality and taper later with a dial bore gage. At least all the meat is left on the walls, and no sign of any damage. The engine turns very smoothly.

The head has been soaking in solvent all day. I didn't realize until I started probing around in the dirt between the top fins that there are through passages near the tops of the PRT's (I guess for air flow, and so as not to trap water). At first, the dirt was so packed that solvent just puddled on top. There were several kernals of field corn in the mix as well. For as nasty as the outside of the engine is, the inside is remarkably clean. Here's the primary, as it looked when I pulled the cover --

[Linked Image]

The primary cover gasket came off in one piece, which surprised me since it's been on there for 47 years. I'm thankful there were no gobs of hardened Permatex to remove. I don't think anyone has been inside here since the factory put it together.

[Linked Image]

Sometimes the crud actually acts as a protective layer. Here's a picture of my PRT's with one partially clean and the other as found. If the rest of my chrome had been that good, I could have saved a bundle --

[Linked Image]

Took some time today to make another tool -- the special screwdriver for the clutch spring nuts. I found an old paint scraper that had never worked well for its intended purpuse because it was too thick and not at all flexible. It was just the right thickness for the slots in the spring nuts, though. All I had to do was get rid of the extra material to make a dandy little tool --

[Linked Image]

I've heard that these can be frozen and locked up, but mine showed no signs of abuse:

[Linked Image]

They came right out:

[Linked Image]

The manual says to replace the clutch friction disks if they have worn more than .030 inches, but I could not find the spec for original size anywhere in the manual. The engine teardown guide says they should be approximately .140 thick. Mine look like brand new and are at .145 inches thick. They were not stuck together at all. Also, there is no notching in the clutch basket grooves --

[Linked Image]

To be continued . . .
Posted By: GrandPaul

Re: Some progress today - 01/19/12 2:38 pm

That engine looks as though it's not only nearly new inside,, but it's never had tools touch it.

And yes, that's a good plug chop reading. Make careful notes of the carb, timing & points settings.
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Some progress today - 01/19/12 5:31 pm


What an absolute little gem!! All being well a good clean and tickle and you will be riding into the sunset.
Posted By: MotorEddy

Re: Some progress today - 01/19/12 9:03 pm

Ray,

From looking at your restoration work on the cycle parts I just know that the motor is in safe hands. Great work, and thanks for sharing. Keeps me inspired to maintain a steady pace on my own TR6 resto.

BTW, the inside of your motor looks in great shape so far. Mine wasn't all that bad either - there seems to be some pretty robust engineering lurking inside these 40-odd year-old cases.

Cheers,

Eddy
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Some progress today - 01/21/12 5:11 am

Originally Posted by GrandPaul
That engine looks as though it's not only nearly new inside,, but it's never had tools touch it.

And yes, that's a good plug chop reading. Make careful notes of the carb, timing & points settings.
Thanks for the advice, Paul. I spent a lot of time today with coffee and my service manual, reading everything one more time. Seemed like a good idea to check those settings as you said. The only problem was that the points were so corroded that there was no continuity through them. I had to drag a points file through both sets of points so I could use a continuity light to check static timing. I did fool around and make a tool like what Brien Morrissey described on the Triumph Forum --

[Linked Image]

I had picked up a couple of old clutch disks with plans to make a clutch locking tool. Brien's idea took it one step further and added the handle (similar to the design by RF Whatley, but not welded). Hats off to Brien, I even had the overhead garage door piece in my junk bin to use as a handle like he did. It makes an engine turning tool, an engine locking tool, and a clutch locking tool all in one. Nice!

So with this in hand, I set up my dial indicator on top of a piston, installed the degree wheel on the AAU, made a pointer, and played around a bit to get familiar with the way things work.

I didn't accomplish anything, other than some self-education, but had some fun. BTW, realizing that filing the points changes things, I did find the timing to be 18 degrees BTDC on the TS, and 14 degrees BTDC on the DS.

Eddy and Rod, thanks for the encouragement. If I worked as fast as you guys, I'd have been done a year ago. Anyway, on with my voyage of discovery!
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Some progress today - 02/01/12 3:01 am

Disclaimer: You long-term pros will probably find this post stupid and boring. I put it up for rookies like myself. Enter at your own risk . . .

Well, that engine/clutch locking tool worked out very well. I was a bit worried about breaking loose those "difficult nuts" that I had read of so often. Turns out I had no trouble. The handle is just long enough to reach a part of my home-made engine stand and act as a torque reaction bar for either LH or RH fasteners. I have an aversion to using rattle guns for loosening sensitive threaded fasteners if I can help it.

[Linked Image]

I was following the overhaul manual written by Thomas Gunn, Jr. of TriCor in 1967, which I found very helpful. He had a cautionary statement that his directions need to be followed exactly . . . "deviations from the methods outlined here will only result in outright errors or lost time." He recommended using a CD474 engine locking tool (bar which bolts across the top of the cylinder block and locks the engine when the pistons rise against it) which I did not make. This required me to take a chance and rearrange some of Mr Gunn's steps, but it all seems to have worked O.K.

Basically, I just left the primary mostly intact so I could use my locking tool instead, as shown above. This let me disassemble the timing chest, then I went back and finished the primary (I guess the Brits call this the "transmission"). Then I disassembled what I would call the transmission (but the Brits call it the "gearbox"). Other than this, I followed Mr. Gunn's procedure exactly. For anyone like me, who is doing this for the first time, I recommend his procedure highly. It is on the DVD from Kim the CD Man.

It was a bit grungy over on this side, but I found no problems.

[Linked Image]

I know that I could have split the cases without pulling the cam pinions, but I wanted everything apart for ease of cleaning and inspection. So, that's what I did --

[Linked Image]

My oil pump checked out right on size for plunger diameter, etc., and function as per the factory manual for my S/N. I notice that the factory went with slightly larger diameter plungers from 1968 on. Anybody know why? I guess mine should be adequate since it isn't a hot rod.

[Linked Image]

I also have the older style OPRV with the indicator button. I guess I need to read the forum to see if this is good, bad, or indifferent.

Back to the drive side, I got the crankshaft and mainshaft nuts loose.

[Linked Image]

Then I pulled the stator and laid it on top the transmission while I pulled the rotor. I wound up using a 3-jaw puller that I got from Harbor Freight, but had to grind the ends of the jaws to fit it between the rotor and the sprocket. I was a little concerned here, because I have heard of the rotor's center becoming loose. It turned out to be a rather light press, and I didn't have to use much force to break it loose.

Here's the distance piece and key for the rotor.

[Linked Image]

No picture, but I used an old steering wheel puller I had to break the sprocket loose -- laid a U.S. quarter over the end of the crank stud to protect it from the puller bolt, and used a couple of head bolts which fit into the threaded holes on the sprocket.

I've read that the rotor magnets are still good if each of them will hold the weight of the rotor when placed against a tool box or whatnot. Mine all would. Here's the rotor levitating --

[Linked Image]

I had trouble getting the stator harness pulled through the case, so I snipped off two of the bullets from the end. I'll need to heat shrink tube the wires and put the bullets back on later --

[Linked Image]

My chain tensioner looked O.K. to me, but it has a rubber pad, and is close to 50 years old, so maybe it should be replaced?

[Linked Image]

Same probably applies for my primary chain, although it easily passed the test in the service manual (measuring the length with 1 foot of links (32 links) pushed together and again with them pulled apart). Book says the two measurements should be within .25 inches of each other. Mine were within .07 of each other, but the chain feels a bit sloppy side to side.

Anyway, with the transmission emptied out --

[Linked Image]

I went back to the timing side. The nut for the oil lines junction block was barely hanging on. No wonder this side of the bike was such an oily mess --

[Linked Image]

I got the gearbox empty without any misadventures --

[Linked Image]

But then I needed to pull the drive sprocket and get the high gear out of the box. The manual says to put the bike in high gear and have someone step on the back brake so you can break loose the sprocket nut. I was sort of past the point where I could do that, so I dug out the old drive chain from the junk bin. I pulled the master link apart and threaded the chain around the sprocket, then clamped it on either side of the cross bar on my "engine stand".

[Linked Image]

I used a cheapo 1 11/16 socket from the TSC store, and it came right off --

[Linked Image]

Since there are puller holes in the sprocket, I thought I would have to use them, but the sprocket came off with my fingers. The manual says to then use a soft metal drift and drive the high gear through into the gearbox. All I had to do was reach in and extract it by hand. Not sure what's up with that, but it sounds like the mainshaft high gear is supposed to be press fit into the bearing inside the gearbox.

One of the few worn spots I found was the high gear bush where it runs inside the oil seal at the center of the cover plate behind the clutch. Too bad, because it is still a nice fit on the mainshaft --

[Linked Image]

The cylinder block easily lifted off the pistons and is ready for cleanup and inspection.

The piston skirts didn't show signs of picking up, but the D.S. piston's compression rings are stuck in the bottom of their grooves.

So, that's where I'm at. At the rate I move, it'll take several days to clean this last batch of parts, and get them tagged, bagged, and stored away. Then I'll split the cases and find out what the sludge trap looks like.

I probably put up too many pictures already here, but I have a whole lot more. If there is some detail that someone would find helpful, let me know and I may have a picture of it.
Posted By: MotorEddy

Re: Some progress today - 02/02/12 5:23 pm

Great post. Don't worry about the disclaimer - we all like to take a sneaky peek inside someone else's motor from time to time. Gunge aside, everything looks in great shape so far. Keep us posted.

Eddy
Posted By: GrandPaul

Re: Some progress today - 02/05/12 3:51 pm

Great progress, Ray. Dang, the inside of that gearbox looks like it's going back together, not coming apart! Nice and clean in there; I was suprised the timing chest looked so sooty...

The trick to pulling out the alternator wires is to pull back the plastic sleeve as far as possible and withdraw one wire at a time so you don't need to cut them off.

Very cool adaptation to your bike lift to turn it into an engine stand.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Some progress today - 02/07/12 7:11 am

Paul, I think I tried to do as you suggested, but that plastic sleeve is almost as old as I am and was not being very cooperative. That bike stand / engine stand did a fine job for me. It was very stable, yet easy to move around. The very best part was that I got it for free.

I finally got all the last batch of parts cleaned up, bagged and tagged. This morning I made myself a tool to remove the gudgeon pins. I could almost, but not quite, push the gudgeons out with my fingers. The tools I saw on-line didn't look like they were worth $68 + shipping, so I visited my junk bin. Here's what I came up with -- not elegant, but all recycled stuff, and probably just as stout as the store-bought ones:

[Linked Image]

And it worked. Here's the piston "giving birth" to a pin --

[Linked Image]

The pins seemed to me to have a very nice sliding fit with the small end bushes. I'll get an expert opinion, though, on reusability of all my parts.

While I was making that tool, the female-mail-man showed up with a set of used inside mics that I bought on an Ebay auction. They are Starrett, and in very nice condition. They check out well dimensionally with my outside mics that I have had since I was a machinist apprentice many moons ago:

[Linked Image]

I also got a set of Starrett small hole gages (not pictured here), which I figure to use on my valve guides and whatever else.

From fooling around a bit with the inside mics, my cylinder bores appear to be 2.7950 on the T.S., and 2.7952 on the D.S., with no discernible taper or ovality. I'll still check them with my friend's dial bore gage, but it looks to me like I should be able to get by with honing and new rings.

Anyway, the pistons are off, all the case bolts and studs are loose, and what's left of the engine is off the stand and up on the table. Tomorrow, I plan to split the cases and finally get a view of that crankshaft.

Ever seen anybody work as slow as I am? I'm enjoying not meeting anybody else's schedule and not getting yelled at for that. bigt
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Some progress today - 02/08/12 4:39 am

Well, I had to modify my home-made Z151 case splitter tool. Because I did not remove the stud from the end of the crankshaft, the inside stator stud was too short to mount the tool. I ended up drilling out the center threaded hole on the tool I had made, so that it was a clearance hole for the crank stud to poke through. Then, with some washers around the crank stud and up against the end of the crank, I could put the puller plate on and evenly tighten the three nuts on the stator studs, like this . . .

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

The cases separated easily enough, leaving the crank stuck in the bearing, in the TS case. Book says don't drive it out, heat it until it falls out. Really! I've read lots of posts where that worked well for others. I started with my heat gun, but no joy there. Then I played a propane torch all around the bearing bore. This was with the case cribbed up on wood blocks and the crank hanging down. I had a big, clean rag under the crank to cushion it when it let go and fell out. Never happened. I finally placed a block of wood on the end of the crank and gave it a couple of sharp raps. The crank came out; the bearing stayed in the case.

I guess it's time to go read through the Triumph forum for advice again. That's it for tonight.
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Some progress today - 02/08/12 5:11 am


Doing yourself proud Ray, looks bloody good. I used an oxy/acetylene torch for the bearing and race. I have a solid steel bench at work, heated the case and just tapped it once against the bench. Out they fell.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Some progress today - 02/10/12 7:37 pm

Originally Posted by Redmoggy
Doing yourself proud Ray, looks bloody good. I used an oxy/acetylene torch for the bearing and race. I have a solid steel bench at work, heated the case and just tapped it once against the bench. Out they fell.

Rod, you can do that because you know what you're doing with a real torch. If I tried it, I would blow a hole in the case for sure. I got clearance from the boss to use her oven, so long as I got the cases cleaned well enough first. I saw a post by JH where he said that heating the whole case was "more friendly", and said heat it to 225-250 degrees Fahrenheit. So that's my plan. I've been cleaning the DS case seemingly forever, but I'm ready to call it good enough. I slipped the cases back together and took some pictures.

I call this "a case of split personality" . . .

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
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Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Some progress today - 02/11/12 6:56 am


Ray, must be lovely to work on an engine where the spanner monkeys have not been beating things apart with a chisel! I just spent a couple hours dressing and cleaning mating faces with a file, sand paper and brass wire brush. Your getting closer to that first blat down the road. I tried my first Harley last week!
Posted By: Adam M.

Re: Some progress today - 02/12/12 1:04 am

What did you use to clean your DS case ?
I put mine into dishwasher today ( BSA A65 ) but it looks like somebody sprayed the front with a black paint.
Besides the front of it is matted and looks more tired then the back.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Spanner monkeys & Harleys - 02/12/12 4:07 am

Originally Posted by Redmoggy

Ray, must be lovely to work on an engine where the spanner monkeys have not been beating things apart with a chisel! I just spent a couple hours dressing and cleaning mating faces with a file, sand paper and brass wire brush. Your getting closer to that first blat down the road. I tried my first Harley last week!

Rod, I guess the good Lord sends the needier bikes to the more talented workmen. You're right that it makes things a lot simpler if the bike has only suffered from benign neglect and not damage from a previous owner. At least after I get the crud off, I can be pretty sure that I'm looking at what the factory built.

Watch riding those Harleys, you'll get a bad reputation on the BritBike forum, plus you might find out that you like it. It's too late for me -- I've had one since new for 20 years now, and another that a close friend bought new and later sold to me that I've had for about 8 years now. I'm too attached to get rid of them.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Case cleaning - 02/12/12 5:20 am

Originally Posted by Adam M.
What did you use to clean your DS case ?
I put mine into dishwasher today ( BSA A65 ) but it looks like somebody sprayed the front with a black paint.
Besides the front of it is matted and looks more tired then the back.

Adam, I've never tried the dishwasher routine, but several people have posted about it on the Triumph forum. They say that a detergent high in phosphates will cause the aluminum to turn black. Here's one example http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbt...ds=dishwasher&Search=true#Post229931

This is gonna get rather wordy, but I will try to describe what I did on my cases.

I decided not to use any glass bead or vapor blasting for fear of leaving residual glass media where it shouldn't be (although several people on here have gotten beautiful results with vapor blasting). I gave my blast cabinet a good cleaning, and loaded it with baking soda to use on my engine parts.

I cleaned my cases in my parts washer, in which I have T140 solvent. It is basically low-odor mineral spirits, which has a higher flash point than kerosine (or paraffin as it is called in the Brit service manuals). The areas that were heavily coated with old oil were the easiest to clean. It acted as a preservative, sort of like when parts are coated with cosmoline. That stuff washed off and left the surface looking very presentable.

The areas where there was no heavy oil were pretty badly oxidized and somewhat pitted. Like you said, the front of the case looked more tired than the back. I soda blasted those areas, and then put the cases into a plastic tub with fairly warm water and a good dose of Simple green. I wore rubber gloves, and hand scrubbed everything. Then I gave it a good rinse with hot water and blasted everything dry with compressed air.

The soda blasting gets the surface clean, but leaves it a rather dull whitish/gray color. You can scroll up to my Jan 16 posting in this thread to see my rocker boxes as an example.

From there, I was going to use the polish wheel, but decided that the part was too big and awkward. I don't have a real good polishing wheel setup -- I just have a variety of 6 inch polishing wheels that I use on one end of my bench grinder. Since the shaft doesn't stick far enough out the side of the grinder, with something like a case it's hard to reach all the surfaces. I also did not want to use any sandpaper, because I wanted to leave the "casting pimples" in place. I just wanted to get rid of the oxidation. I ended up using a 2 inch diameter lamb's wool wheel in my electric drill, with Mother's PowerMetal Aluminum polish.

I just put a dab of the liquid polish on the part, and ran the wheel very slowly through it to load the wheel (variable speed drill), then worked it at faster rpm across the surface. That compound turns black as it removes the oxidation. When the surface started to brighten, I stopped and used a piece of an old tee shirt to hand polish. Once I had the whole thing done, I used a six inch, loose flannel wheel in the drill and polished the whole thing with no rouge or polishing compound on the wheel.

For nooks and crannies, I used my Dremel tool with similar wheel, but smaller.

I may have the cases too "chrome colored" and not gray enough for some people, but they are uniform color all over, and to me they look close to the color/texture that I found inside the cases where they were not oxidized. In the end, I decided that I was the only one who had to be satisfied with it. Besides, I'm sure if they are too bright, mother nature will take care of that in short order.
Posted By: Adam M.

Re: Case cleaning - 02/12/12 5:52 pm

Thanks for your answer.
For the record I used these new jelly bags in the dishwasher and my case didn't change color at all, only black patches on the front of it weren't removed.
My plan now is to hit it with a copper wire wheel, after this go your way with some polishing compound.
My goal was to leave it as natural as it was from the factory, not even touched with soda blasting, or any other blasting for that matter to keep the "skin" of the cast untouched.
>
Half an hour later :
Used wire wheel on my drillfromhell and oxidation is gone.
Got this little too shiny look , but I can live with it.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Case cleaning - 02/12/12 7:55 pm

Adam, when I was into trucking, I worked for a guy who loved big, red, Peterbilt 379's with aluminum wheels and trim. Many hours were spent during any available downtime in keeping the aluminum polished. If too much time lapsed between polishing sessions, he would sometimes use chemical "brightener" on the aluminum. The brand he used was ZEP. It was an acidic concentrate that had to be diluted in water. It would remove the oxidation, but had to be followed by polishing or the aluminum would go white. I'm wondering if that would be a good first step on your blackened cases. At least it would not involve any blasting. Also, Caswell sells something called Aluminator, but I have not personally tried it. I have used other products from them that I found to be very good.
http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/albrite.html

Oops! I guess we were posting at the same time. Sounds like you worked it out. Good news!
Posted By: TR6Ray

Sludge Trap - 02/17/12 5:58 am

I fooled around a bit with the crankshaft this evening. I ground the tip of an old bit to sort of match the radius in the rather deep slot in the dreaded sludge trap plug. I figured since I'm the first one in here since the guy at Meriden, the plug may come out fairly easily if the tool fit well enough. Just for reference, the plug was recessed .029 below the surface.

[Linked Image]

I used a small burr tool in my Dremel to cut away the punch lock, being careful to remove as little metal as necessary. Then, with no rattle gun or any other hoopla, the plug came right out. Here's mud in yer eye . . .

[Linked Image]

Depending on whether you are an optimist or a pessimist, you could say the tube was either half full or half empty. Actually, it looked a little more than half full. The old girl was ready to take a good dump after sitting around for 41 years . . .

[Linked Image]

There was also no drama involved with removing the flywheel bolt, which made me happy. I tried it gently without any heat, and it came right out.

[Linked Image]

To quote John Healy's article, "Without taking some precautions removing this bolt, it is easy to break it. If this happens, removing the piece that remains in the flywheel can be a confounded nuisance and a job best suited for an expert." Well said!

Then I made up the puller tool as described in John's article, except I used an old carriage bolt from the junk bin. I cut the head off, and drilled and tapped the shank to accept a 1/4-20 grub screw. Then I found that all I had was a 5/16-18 screw, so I drilled it bigger and tapped it again. This is about the biggest that will fit the hole in the sludge tube, but it worked O.K., and the tube came on out . . .

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Here's a view of the inside end of the sludge trap tube --

[Linked Image]

I felt fortunate that this worked out well. From what I have read, people often have a lot of trouble with this job. Speaking of fortunate, the factory size spec for the crankshaft big end journals is 1.6235/1.6240. I measured mine at 1.6237 (D.S.), and 1.6238 (T.S.). The finish on the ground surface looks very good, and there is a nice .100 corner radius . . .
[Linked Image]

The main bearing journals are also on size, and the flywheel is tight. Looks like all I need to do is give the oil passages a good cleaning, but there's no machining required.

I got my T.S. case cleaned up, and with the help of a friend who has a valve spring compressor, the valves are out of the head. So, I'm plodding along. I'm almost to the point where there are no more dirty parts to clean up -- Hooray for that!
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Sludge Trap - 02/17/12 9:35 am


Obviously a better quality of grub screw. I like those radius gauges, gonna find me some of them.

So are you planning on a remote spin on filter?
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Sludge Trap - 02/17/12 5:54 pm

Originally Posted by Redmoggy

Obviously a better quality of grub screw. I like those radius gauges, gonna find me some of them.

So are you planning on a remote spin on filter?

Grub screw: When I couldn't find a grub screw, I was going to wait till the next day when the stores opened. Then I vaguely remembered setting back an extra one for the pulley on my table saw, about 15 yrs ago. Amazingly it was still where I remembered putting it. I guess not all the brain cells are dead yet. I found the trickiest part of the job was getting the grub screw at the proper height to catch the hole in the sludge trap tube without catching the edge of the bolt hole.

Filter: Yes, definitely. I like the Glenn "Phrog" Davidson design posted by RF Whatley on the GABMA page and plan to make something along those lines. I was amazed to see the amount of crap in that sludge tube, but it proves the effectiveness of the design -- it was sure doing its job! A filter in the return line could only be a bonus.

Radius gage: That is an old Starrett gage that I got as a machinist apprentice back in the mid 70's. I still remember that my instructor had the patience of a saint. It was no easy job to get me going properly with an external grinder, but I finally got the hang of it. Getting out an old tool and using it is like meeting up with an old friend.
Posted By: TR6Ray

More clean & dirty parts - 02/23/12 1:47 am

I spent the afternoon cleaning the last of the dirty parts, though I still have some aluminum to polish. Here are a few before and after pics:

The con rods had a lot of baked on oil near the small ends. --

[Linked Image]

Cleaned and lightly polished -

[Linked Image]

The pistons were pretty nasty, with a lot of carbon build-up. The compression rings in the DS piston were well and truly stuck. I got the lower one out in two pieces, but the top one was more difficult. I finally got all but one piece, about 3/4 inch long. Had to put the piston in the oven and heat it up to get that last bit to come out with a seal pick.

I should probably buy new pistons, but these are the original Lo-Ex ones from Triumph (pre-Hepolite). I thought I'd see if they would clean up. The ring grooves look O.K., but I'll give them a better going over to be sure. --

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I scrubbed these up with a bit of Arm & Hammer Baking Soda, under pressure of course. --

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

While I had the oven up to temp, I heated up my cases to 250 deg F and got all the bearings out. Still had to lightly drift them, but they came out pretty easily. I had been kind of worried about this job and had kept putting it off.

Then I decided to clean the cylinder head some more. Since I got the valves out, I could clean around the guides better. They had a lot of carbon build-up. I may replace the guides, and figured I had better get the carbon off the outside if possible to prevent damaging the head when they are removed.

Exhaust valves were the worst, of course. --

[Linked Image]

After a shot of baking soda --

[Linked Image]

Inlet valve guides were not as bad, but still had a lot of crud. --

[Linked Image]

They cleaned up pretty nicely. --

[Linked Image]

Since everything seemed to be going well, I thought I would tackle another job I had been putting off for fear of screwing it up . . . removing the patent plate. I was encouraged when Redmoggy said he couldn't believe how easy it was to change the one on his TR6 project. I also got some advice from Hawaiian Tiger. They were right, it came right off with no trauma. Thanks, guys! --

[Linked Image]

I could almost use the old plate, but will probably get a new one. It'll be a lot easier to put it on, since I don't have any broken drive screws to extract.

That's it for now.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Update -- a little progress - 04/04/12 10:01 pm

Long time - no updates, so here's what I've been up to:

I got very hung up on what to do with the crankshaft main bearings. I latched onto a thread on the Triumph forum and extended it out considerably till I got a better grasp on the subject. Thanks to all who chimed in there! I wound up getting a roller bearing to replace the DS ball bearing, a new ball bearing for the TS, and and a later style crank pinion, adding a clamping washer. That's all detailed in this thread '64 Crank Location

{Edited 8/5/2017} Unfortunately, that thread full of valuable information got lost in an accidental but massive thread deletion. Too bad -- it's gone and could not be retrieved.

I also got new bearings for the gearbox mainshaft and new layshaft needle bearings. The old ones were probably O.K., but hey, it's already apart so I might as well do it now. One layshaft thrust washer was like new, but the other was worn (kind of strangely more on one edge than on the other), so I got a new one. I filed the old one down till it was flat and was .075 inch thick. I'll use it as a stop spacer when I drive in the new needle bearings.

[Linked Image]

I also decided to get a later style (1968) high gear to eliminate the problem with the seal wearing a groove on the bush O.D.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

The extended nose on the high gear will let the seal run on steel instead of bronze. Of course this meant I needed the later style sprocket cover plate, with the larger seal bore.

[Linked Image]

I had already bought a new bush, and almost pressed it into the old high gear. Then I decided that now was the right time to fix it properly. When I bought the used high gear from a '68, it had a bush in it that was on the high limit for wear. My new bush had no oil groove in it, and had about .002 inch size variation end to end. I tried to buy another one from Morrie's Place (where I got the gear), but Ed was temporarily out of stock on them. I went ahead and had him press in the one I had, hoping it would close up enough. It was close, but not right.

So I wound up getting another new bush from Klempf's. It has the oil grooves and is the proper size. I'll press that one in at my buddy's shop and hopefully put that issue to rest.

I also bought some parts based on stuff I had read on the forum, my own measurement and judgement, and some things just because it's all opened up. A few of these things are:

  • CovSeal rocker box gaskets from Coventry Spares
  • Pioneer-Weston seals for the timing cover (the ones that are supposed to be most resistant to inverting and dumping oil pressure
  • New valve springs
  • New, larger dia valves (advised by Ed Zender)
  • New oil pump balls and springs
  • Later style OPRV cap without the indicator button (I plan to fit a gage, at least temporarily. I still have the old setup in case I change my mind.)
  • New primary chain (I think the old one was O.K., but decided not to take a chance on it destroying my cases and/or primary cover)
  • Cush drive rubbers (again, I think the old ones were O.K., but I'm in there so will change 'em out)
  • New gudgeon clips (I plan to re-use the old pins and pistons)


I also went ahead and bought a set of ring compressors to add to the toolbox.

[Linked Image]

I've got my aluminum cleaned up as much as I plan to. It isn't perfect, but better than it was. My new motto is, "Call it patina and let it go". At least I had no cracks or dents to deal with (eh Redmoggy?) I really dislike sanding. Here are some before/after pics:

[Linked Image]

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The picture makes them look a little better than they really are. So maybe I'll just always try to keep the bike in shadow when it's out.

I finally finished bead blasting all my engine/tranny hardware and got it cad plated. Another jigsaw puzzle. My helper was all set to sort it out for me:

[Linked Image]

Then he told me he couldn't remember what went into which bag:

[Linked Image]
This batch came to $75.00, and was done in one day -- Thanks Jose at J&D Plating in Waukegan IL! He's been plating for 35 years and does a heck of a job.

Since it was a small batch, I threw in my tappet block driver and got it plated. It was bare steel when I bought it.

[Linked Image]

Which reminds me that I also had Ed Zender turn some o-ring grooves in my tappet guide blocks while I was at Morrie's Place. He did it while I waited and supplied the seals.

[Linked Image]

The other hangup has been the cylinder block. I thought it would be quick and easy to blast and paint it. I had a tough time, as described in this Triumph Forum thread Cylinder Paint Recommendations

I am planning to use VHT Paint, and go with all four steps: Prep, Prime, Paint, Clear. The UPS guy just dropped off the primer today, so I can get on with it. Hope this stuff works.

[Linked Image]

The only other thing is that I picked up the stuff to add an oil filter in the return line. I got a Norton style filter base and a couple Emgo filters to fit it. The chunk of 6061 aluminum came from McMaster Carr -- delivered in less than 24 hours (very prompt, but who knows how long it'll sit around here before I make something of it).

[Linked Image]

I was going to make it like the one on the GABMA page, but there is a problem. My bike, like a lot of other Triumphs, has a lug on the bottom of the frame that will not allow mounting it as shown in the drawing. I do think that I can fit it in there, but will have to modify the design of the mount. I have a friend with a small machine shop and will use his mill and boring machine to work this out.

I still need to paint the cylinder block, get the bores honed, and get the head work done. Other than that, I think everything is purchased, cleaned, bagged, tagged, plated, polished, you name it. I'm almost ready to start putting this beasty together. However, I'm going to stop for a while. I need to put a tire on the Harley, clean the carbs on the little Honda, stain the patio deck, and some other honey-do's. Hope to be back at it with the TR6 before I forget what I'm doing.
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Update -- a little progress - 04/05/12 9:11 am


I would be more than happy with those covers Ray. If you have access to a mop on a machine and some compounds you could probably get that perfect finish. Mine are still miles away from being almost nice!

I have my oil filter mounted with an exaust clamp type mount below the swinging arm, the lug at the bottom of the frame does not interfer with the filter. However i currently can not fit a centre stand and have had to space the exaust strap downwards to clear. You can convert the old filter thread to use a Japanese type tiny oil fiter to remedy this. I have this on my list of things to do.

Also, i have read alot about the small valve heads producing more power. I found the opposite with my TR6. Much more pep after the bigger valves went in.

Keep it up Ray it's looking really good.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Update -- a little progress - 04/05/12 1:28 pm

Thanks, Rod,

I think there is room for the filter I have, as well as the center stand, if I shift the filter toward the timing side. Those Emgo filters I bought only cost $7.00 per. Not sure as to their quality, micron rating, or bypass capability, but I'm told many others are running them successfully. If I get a bracket made to fit, I'll post up the details.

Good to know about the larger valves. I was only going to replace one exhaust valve, but got convinced the larger ones were better.

When I first got this bike, the engine was stuck. Turns out the reason was that one or more valves were corroded in place in the guides. I soaked the pistons with PB Blaster for quite a while and kept tapping the kicker. I finally gave it a good shot and broke it loose. Turns out that one exhaust valve opened and stayed that way -- kissed a piston and bent the head of the valve slightly. Oh well, live and learn.

I'm looking forward to the rest of your build. I read through it again yesterday. Lots of good pics and good step-by-step explanations, making it a good reference. Best to you.

Ray
Posted By: TR6Ray

Project update - 10/20/12 1:08 am

I see I last updated this project thread in April, 2012. I'll catch it up in pieces, first up being the cylinder head.

Earlier in this thread, I said that I never intended to venture into the engine and gearbox myself. A long-time local builder was going to do the work and let me watch/learn/get in his way. He had health issues and was reluctant to start my project until he got stabilized. I appreciated his honesty and judgement in that regard, and finally started the work myself. Sadly, he passed away two weeks ago. Though I did not know him well, he was always willing to share his knowledge when I called him or went to visit. He was a true craftsman, who built many a British bike in his time. Godspeed, Jack!

I should mention another guy who I've known for close to 50 years now. To keep him anonymous, I'll just call him TG. He has this amazing little shed that only measures about eleven feet by eleven (plus a small lean-to addition out back), but he makes use of every last square inch. In here he has a good sized air compressor, an air-over-hydraulic motorcycle lift mounted in the floor, a good steel work bench, some stools to sit on, a fridge (bottled water only), a lathe, a bead blast cabinet that vents outdoors, a welder, a hydraulic press, equipment to bore and hone cylinders, all manner of valve tooling, high quality measuring equipment, a small granite surface plate,
well . . . you get the idea.

Since TG retired, his hobby is fettling motorcycles for people he knows, so long as they follow these three rules:
  • Don't ever get in a hurry.
  • Don't try to pay him.
  • Don't tell anybody where you got it.

O.K., so when I quit with the TR6 last April, I had a long list of other stuff to do. But, TG kept telling me that we could and should rework my cylinder head ourselves. It was a learning experience for sure, but we got it done -- I believe successfully, but time will tell.
Here's a picture of the head when I was taking things apart:

[Linked Image]

And here's where it is now:

[Linked Image]

I don't even own a valve spring compressor, but TG has a variety of sizes of them. We took the valves out and did some measuring. TG used this as an excuse to buy two more sizes of dial bore gages to complete his set. (Says he has a tool fetish.)

We were going to knurl the existing valve guides, because I had read so many bad things about removing valve guides (everything I read was true -- believe me). They were hard as glass, and that got nowhere.

I had soda blasted everything, and thought all the carbon was cleaned up. We proceeded to "Plan B" -- new valve guides. Did I mention that TG has an oven in his shop? In went the head. I had bought a guide drift, and of course we had a hammer. The intake guides came out, leaving nice smooth bores. The exhaust side, not so much. I had missed enough crap on the old guides that I grooved the bores.

(This is why John Healy recommends machining the top end of the old guide down flush with the head surface and then driving the remainder toward the chamber. Wish I had done that.)

This caused me some lost sleep for a while, but TG turned up a guide bush on his lathe, and we used it to keep the reamer as centered on the valve seat as possible. I bought some more valve guides (for the exhaust only) with oversize O.D.'s.

I decided I didn't want to hammer in the new guides, so I shopped around for one of those tools that pulls the new guide into place -- theoretically keeping it centered on the existing valve seat. These are as rare as hen's teeth these days. I guess other people are smart enough that there is little demand for them (or they were just temporarily out of stock everywhere at that time).

Here's what that kit looks like:

[Linked Image]

The shank that came with the tool was too big to fit through the valve guide, so TG honed it down to fit. As it turned out, we didn't hone it quite small enough. The first time we tried to use it, the guide was about halfway in place and picked up heat from the cylinder head. It closed in on the shank of the tool. I tried to keep it going, but the shank broke. I grabbed the drift and hammered the guide in the rest of the way. Then I made a new shank from some all-thread. It worked, but it was really hard to pull the guides into place. It doesn't sound like much, but .0015 inch is a lot of interference fit.

The upshot of all this was that the guides were not exactly aimed dead center on the existing seats. We had to remove more material from the seats to get them to clean up. That meant I had to hand blend the surrounding area near the seats -- not an easy task. eek cry

Here's the bottom of the head:

[Linked Image]

There were also issues with the valve stem height, springs, and seats. I could go on, but have probably said too much already. If you are doing this job, or thinking about it, you may want to read through the thread on the Triumph Forum where I was asking lots of questions back then ([color:#3366FF][u]Click HERE[/u][/color]). Thank goodness for all who helped, with special thanks to John Healy and Pete R.

We did eventually get it sorted out and it has the proper spring preload with very little shimming. Pete R's comments make me believe the valve geometry will be good. TG has a leakdown plate that we used and the valves seal extremely well. I have high hopes for success. The problem would be on the next valve job, if and when it is needed. But then, although I'm building this as a rider, I don't see this bike acquiring tons of miles in my lifetime.

Next update, I'll describe my joyous experience cleaning and painting the barrels.
Posted By: Jeff46u

Re: Project update - 10/20/12 1:22 am

I have done a LOT of heads and the guides no matter how you put them in or with what you are going to have to grind or cut the seat to get them to seal. Some do end up more true to the seat then others.

Looking forward to more about this prodject but looks like you are doing a very fine job.
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Project update - 10/20/12 4:33 am


I was afraid that would happen, looks like I best start playing catch up!
Your mates shed sounds great. Nice work Ray, keep it up!

Rod
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Project update - 10/21/12 11:36 pm

Some more catch-up of my project -- the jugs.

(I used a lot of extra words here in my tale of woe -- you may just want to glance at the pictures.) laughing

I mentioned earlier (quite a while ago, now) that my cyl bores were still on original factory spec. They checked good with my inside mics, having no ovality or taper. Later I took them to TG's shed and we went over them with his dial bore gage. He was amazed at their condition, saying he'd never seen Harley or Japanese cylinders that good. They had less than .0002 (that's two ten-thousandth's) variation wherever they were checked, top to bottom and all around -- not bad for some old British junk, eh? They were glazed though, and the rings were stuck on one piston. Remember, this thing sat still in a barn for forty one years.

He said he would hone the bores, but he wanted me to do the clean and paint first. O.K., we were done with the cyl head, so I thought I would work this in as a quick job among my summer honey-do catch-ups. I was sure in for a surprise! That factory paint was a son-of-a-gun to remove. In fact, the cylinder paint was probably the biggest PITA of this whole project so far (of course I'm not done yet).

Here's what they looked like when they came off the engine:
[Linked Image]

I didn't want glass beads inside the bores or on the gasket surfaces, so I made up a little plywood jig. I also cut some temporary gaskets to seal the top and bottom surfaces. I got some plastic plugs that fit in the tappet block bores. These were hose coupling protectors from my friend's junk bucket at his gas station. I also had a bit of blue Tack in the threaded holes for the bolts that lock the tappet blocks in position. Sad to say, the cyl block lived in this thing mostly all summer. I don't have a picture from this stage, but later I used some scraps of steel and made up some little trunnions to hang this thing up in the air for painting. Here's what my plywood jig looked like after the trunnions were added. Threaded rods run through each bore, with a nut on each end. The trunnions worked very well during the painting part. I could rotate the whole thing, keeping it all horizontal (but that came much later).

[Linked Image]

I bead blasted this thing seemingly forever, and the paint was barely phased at all. So, I tried some Airline Stripper -- didn't touch it. TG gave me some paint stripper that he said worked quicker than anything he'd tried -- didn't touch it!

I asked for help on the Triumph forum (Click Here) and H.T. told me I'd probably need to burn the paint off. After using the stripper, the paint got soft and the glass media would just bounce off. He was right, but I wound up getting the rest of the paint off with coarse sandpaper wrapped around the end of a cedar shim.

Many hours later, there was just a bit left to clean. I put it back in the blast cabinet and rolled the cabinet outside. After about an hour blasting, I went in the garage for a break. Heard a big crash outside????

When I went back out, there was a big mess. The wind had caught the cabinet (which is on a cart with rollers), turned it sideways, and flipped it over on its face. The cyl block came out through the glass front, and beads and broken glass were everywhere.

The cabinet could be repaired, but my first sickening thought was whether I had any broken fins on the barrels. Turned out that they all survived the ride!

So, I put new glass in the cabinet and finished it up. Now it was paint time. There's another thread on the Triumph forum with paint info (Click Here).

I chased down a lot of info on VHT Barrel Paint, then had to chase down the paint itself. Wound up using all four parts of their process. I won't blame their product, but it did not turn out well. Those barrel fins are about 1 1/2 inches deep, and only spaced about .200 inch apart. Things went well with the prep spray and the primer. Not so well with the black finish coat. I could not get a proper spray angle that would lay down a flow coat on the faces of the fins. Meanwhile, I was getting too much paint built up on the edges and at the base of the fins. After working on this for almost 5 hours, the final coat of clear reacted and wrinkled the paint in various places all over the barrels. This was probably for the best. I had it too thick and I'm sure it would not have held up.

After contemplating suicide for a while, it was back to the beginning -- stripping paint. I finally did something right. I ditched the Harbor Freight glass media that I had been using, and sent away for some Skat Magic blasting media (Click Here) . This stuff is made from recycled auto glass (windshields and such) and has fractured edges. It is more aggressive and worked very well. I was able to turn the pressure down to about 30 psi and blast my barrels clean. I also bought new cabinet gloves from these folks, since the old ones got cut to ribbons during the tip-over.

Clean once again, I took some advice from Tridentman, and brushed on POR-15. This was also a four step process. I used their Marine Clean to get the metal clean. Then I used their Prep & Ready to lightly acid etch the metal. Next I brushed on a coat of POR-15 black paint. Finally, I brushed on a coat of their Black Engine Paint. This is needed because the POR-15, which is nearly indestructible, will not hold its color when exposed to UV light. The engine paint as a top coat will handle this.

We honed the bores over at TG's shed. Then we placed a piece of wet/dry sandpaper wetted with some WD-40 on the granite plate. I placed the jugs on there with the head deck on the sandpaper, and rubbed it around lightly till the whole top was bright -- didn't take much at all.

Next came a critical step that John Healy has stressed over and over -- after honing, wash with hot soapy water. Use a clean lint free towel and some oil to rub all around in the bores. Finally use clean white towels to try to rub all the oil back out of the bores. Keep going till the towels come out clean.

I found that a new toilet bowl brush from the local big box store was just right for this bore size. Coincidence? You decide:

[Linked Image]

Here's the final shot, honed, cleaned, and ready to go:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Enough for now. Next up -- crankshaft and rods are back together.


Posted By: Lannis

Re: Project update - 10/22/12 12:37 am

Wow!

Thanks for the blow-by-blow. It takes a lot of fortitude to stick to something like this through thick and thin .... and thick and thin paint too ....

Lannis
Posted By: TR6Ray

More on the '64 - 10/22/12 3:32 am

The crankshaft assembly . . .

My friend TG and I had checked my crankshaft and rods every which way, and could find nothing wrong. I even considered re-using the original bearing shells, but later on changed my mind and bought new. I did a bit of a write-up earlier about the sludge trap, which actually gave very little trouble compared to the stories I have read about that job. I had cleaned the crank as well as I thought I could at that time, then wrapped it up and put it away.

So, last week, I got it out and cleaned it yet again. I also very lightly polished the TS end, such that the new main bearing will go on with a very snug sliding fit. This engine originally had a ball bearing main on both ends, and located from the DS. After much reading and having exchanged a ton of conversation with Pete R and John Healy, I elected to go with the later roller bearing (fitment CN) on the drive side, and a new ball bearing (fitment C3) on the timing side. I am adding the clamping washer on the TS, along with the later style pinion. The crank will now be located from the TS. I will be checking end play (prior to tightening the pinion nut), and measuring to see if the rods are central to the bores (after snugging up the pinion nut). I am thankful that both those gentlemen have so much patience and are willing to share their knowledge and experience.

John Healy also wrote an excellent Tech Tips article in Vintage Bike Magazine (Winter 2009-10), which I recommend highly for anyone doing this task. I had read this a number of times. When I finally got around to trying this myself, it was very reassuring to have my measurements (inside diameter of the rod big-ends, bearing shell crush, rod side play, rod bolt stretch, etc.) come up the same as in the article. So, with the first rod assembled to the crank (assembly lube on the journal and on the bearing shell) it was a sweet sight indeed to see the rod move freely all the way around, and to fall slowly under its own weight when released. Even better when the second one did also.

Pete R mentioned somewhere along the line that with the rods assembled onto the crank, you should be able to easily slip an 11/16 diameter rod through both small end bushes. This would be a rough test to see if one or both rods are bent, or twisted. I bought a 12 inch piece of drill rod from McMaster Carr for this purpose. I will also use it to check relative to the crankcase mouth later. Anyway, the rod slid neatly through both small end bushes. Here's a picture:

[Linked Image]

To me, the rod looks bent in this picture, but it is actually very straight. I found that 11/16 rod is not something carried at any hardware or farm store in my town. They all skip from 5/8 to 3/4 diameter. McMaster Carr has drill rod in this size in a variety of steel specs.

After much consideration, measurement, and cleaning/polishing, I am keeping and re-using everything here except the big end shells and the sludge trap plug, which were replaced.
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: More on the '64 - 10/22/12 4:12 am


Dont stop now, your nearly riding it!

Lovin the bog brush!

Rod
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: More on the '64 - 10/23/12 4:09 am

Thanks for the encouragement, Rod, I'll take all the help I can get.

Funny you should mention "nearly riding it". Up until about three weeks ago, I had never ridden a Triumph in my life -- not once. Yet here I am trying to learn all about this old TR6.

I finally fixed that situation. I rode my friend's '64 Bonneville, then his new Thruxton, then his wife's BMW, then his brother's '79 T140. In exchange, they both took one of my Harleys up and down the road. A fun day, but all things considered, I'd have to say I like the T140E the best. I am surprised that I feel that way, because when I was a kid I never thought much of Triumph after 1970. Guess I am now seeing the light.

I'm hoping that when my TR6 is finally back on the road, it will be my favorite Triumph.
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: More on the '64 - 10/23/12 6:47 am


Different kettle of fish in my mind mate. The joy comes from knowing your old bike, learning how much to tickle it and how much throttle she likes from cold, watching the faces of people as it fires up first kick. Then there is the riding, you gotta learn how to tickle the speed of with that single leading shoe front brake as you drop a cog and listen to exhaust burble on the over run (you can do this leaning into a fast bend on the inside of a bunch of ape hanger equiped Harleys!) before winding the clock round to 5 grand. Guess which Triumph is my favorite!

Sorry to rabbit on
Rod
Posted By: TR6Ray

More on the '64 - 10/25/12 10:21 pm

Rod, I don't see that as "rabbitting on". I think that might be the best one paragraph statement of "why I love my motorcycle" that I have ever read. Ranks right up there with Peter Egan. Here's something Egan wrote once about his '67 Bonneville that caught my eye (his book Leanings, p. 77). He used more words than you did, but then he makes his living as a writer:

"The roll axis of the bike feels to be between your ankles rather than sloshing and lost somewhere in the gas tank. It gives you the odd, anachronistic sensation you are riding a motorbike -- a genuine motorized bicycle; a Schwinn paper-boy special with a big hairy engine bolted into the frame -- rather than a two-wheeled transportation module. Perhaps the heart of the Triumph's appeal lies in the subconscious feeling of eternal wonderment that you are hurtling down the road without having to pedal.

The Bonneville's big advantage, of course, is that it was built just before unelected public servants got into vehicle design. So the Triumph has a front fork unburdened by turn signals, beepers, reflectors, timers, dashboards, and idiot lights, which makes the steering light and precise. The tail light, though visible at night, is smaller than a breadbox, and the shift lever is on the right because, by god, that's where the transmission is. The muffler muffles without strangling (silencer, the British term, is an exaggeration) and the engine has no emission controls to help motorcyclists atone for the past sins of Elderado owners."

Now I guess its me rabbiting on. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts! You've been more help to me on this project than you can imagine.
beerchug
_______________________________________________________________________

I've maybe progressed enough for another update, so here goes:

After leaving the new main bearings in the freezer over night, I baked the cases at 225 F for 30 minutes each. Both main bearings and the gearbox mainshaft bearing -- all dropped to the bottom of their bores with a satisfying "Plink!" No cocking in the bores or other misadventures. Lord, I worried about that for so long, and it was done in an instant with absolutely no issues!

I cribbed up the primary on two long 4x6 blocks on the benchtop. After fitting the rollers and inner race from the new DS roller bearing onto the crank, I slid the crank down into the DS case. This was followed by the TS case dropping down onto the other end. Sorting through my cad plated hardware, I snugged the cases together. No camshafts, breather, pistons, gaskets, or sealer yet. I just wanted to see how much crankshaft end float there was, and to make sure the crank would go round and round with the cases back toghether. The rods were in place, and protected by cardboard tubes (from inside a paper towel roll).

I decided it would be quicker and easier to put the assembly back up on my home-made engine stand to check this stuff out.

[Linked Image]

That made it easy to install the cylinder base studs and attach the jugs. After I did that, I remembered that I had meant to check the rods vs. the crankcase mouth, using the 11/16 rod that I mentioned earlier. Guess I will do that later.

If I use my imagination, it looks like only a slight nudge would have the old girl back in one piece, but I know better:

[Linked Image]

Anyway, the crank does indeed go round 'n round quite nicely. The engine stand made a handy spot for my old mag base dial indicator. I pushed the crank all the way toward the DS and zeroed the dial:

[Linked Image]

Then reached around and pushed from the DS toward the TS, coming up with just under .020 inch of end float. (Notice this was done without the clamping washer, pinion, or nut in place yet.

[Linked Image]

Next, I wanted to measure how centrally the rods were situated in the cylinder bores, with the crank pulled to the timing side. I did not see a reason to fit the pinion only to have to pull it and put it back on later. With this in mind, I cut a spacer to take the place of the pinion temporarily. It is just a piece of 3/4" black pipe, opened slightly inside with a Dremel to make it a loose fit on the end of the crank. TG was ill, or I would have had him do this on his lathe.

[Linked Image]

With the spacer and nut pulling the crank to the timing side, I used an expanding snap gage and an outside mic to measure the centrality of the con rods vs. the bores:

[Linked Image]

This picture doesn't show it, but I was holding the rod small end and pushing or pulling to take out all the rod's side play on the crank while measuring with the gage using my other hand. This takes some practice, and I did it numerous times. I sort of didn't believe my measurements, so I left it overnight and checked again the next day. Got the same thing -- both rods are dead central. This surprised me, because originally the crank was located from the DS, now I am locating from the TS. Oh well, don't look a gift horse in the mouth, they say!

So, I will need to add one shim between the crank cheek and the inner race of the DS roller bearing, the purpose being to reduce the end float. With the rods already central, I will not use any shim on the TS bearing. End float spec is .003 to .017 inch. Pete R recommends getting that down toward the minimum, so I could use a .015 shim. On the other hand, the mean dimension between .003 and .017 is .010, so I could "shoot for the mean" and use a .010 shim. Decisions, decisions!

Note: I am fully aware that with a clamping washer fitted on the pinion end, the crankshaft "float" is controlled by the internal clearance of the TS main ball bearing. This dimension does, however, control the clearance between the ends of the rollers and the single lip outer race on the DS main. Also, some believe that at operating temperature, the main bearings are no longer a press fit in the cases, and actually can walk left and right, contained only by the bearing shoulders in the case bores. It is considered good, from what I have read, to limit this motion.

To be continued!
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: More on the '64 - 10/26/12 5:25 pm


Now that really has to instill some faith in the engineering skills of them old boys in brown coats, especially when you read about how worn out the equipment was! Takes a skilled man to compensate for his equipment.

Wish i had your measuring gear kicking around my garage. Sure looks good parked next to the frame like that.

Rod
Posted By: 79T140E

Re: More on the '64 - 10/27/12 3:41 am

I just read through the thread. Awesome job Ray. A good story, but I feel sad about the PO missing so many years of having the bike but not getting to enjoy it. There are a lot of good life stories out there with these old bikes. I have mine and reading other peoples makes me think of mine. Thanks for stirring the memories.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: More on the '64 - 10/27/12 1:06 pm

Thanks for your comments, T140E. I'm planning to take a ride today and go visit the PO. He is a true survivor, still riding at 78 yrs, after resolving medical issues that would have made many younger men call it quits.

I don't know if you caught it when you read through my build story, but I got a chance to ride a friend's '79 T140E a while back. A sweet bike for sure! Just in time, Redmoggy set me straight on why I should be happy with what I have (assuming I ever get to ride it).

Here's a picture of the T140E which I got to ride:

[Linked Image]
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: More on the '64 - 10/28/12 8:11 pm

(This post was in response to Allan Gill's question about how I cleaned the cylinder head. Allan's question doesn't show, because his post was part of the great thread disappearance that took place here on BritBike. He decided he had been spending too much time on the forum and he asked Morgan to delete all his content. That caused some disruption in other threads and even deleted entire contents of a number of threads. All this caused some hard feelings, but that is all in the past now.)

Allan, most would say it is too shiny to look proper. Thinking back, I blasted with the baking soda which got it pretty clean, but dull and white. Then I polished both by hand and with a small cloth wheel in my Dremel tool (where there was access), using Mother's Alu Polish. To get between the fins, I was wrapping a bit of old towel (sometimes a bit of an old tee-shirt) around a popsickle stick. This had it looking much as it does now. All this was time consuming and rather a PITA!

Then, after the valve work was done, I ran it for about an hour in my friend's industrial grade ultrasonic cleaner to get rid of any swarf. This was in a a 10% solution of Chem Crest 2003 in distilled water. This is a very good cleaner, and it does not darken aluminum as some do. The temp was set for 120 degrees F, but crept up as the process went along. I think it got up to slightly over 130 degrees F. This left some "starburst" patterns in the aluminum. They sort of looked like snowflakes. They were not pitted or etched into the surface though, and they came off fairly easily with some aluminum polish (by hand again, but this time using Zephyr Pro-40 Metal Polish). So, this thing has been through the mill.

Vapor blasting may be worth the cost, when you consider the time involved otherwise. However, I still worry, rightly or wrongly so, about glass media getting left behind. Many do it and it looks very good. Compared to the shininess of my cylinder head, I actually prefer the look of glass bead blasted finish I've seen on these heads (and cases), but again, I was afraid of residual media.

An alternate method I was fooling with at the same time:

Before discovering the Chem Crest 2003 cleaning solution, I had run some Keihin carburetor bodies in a different ultrasonic cleaning solution that came out clean but nasty looking:

[Linked Image]

I could not get rid of the dull gray color. I tried an aluminum wheel cleaner from the Auto Zone Store, which did nothing at all. I finally went to see a guy I know who works on big trucks. One of his guys polishes wheels, fuel tanks, etc. They gave me a bit of the aluminum brightener that they use (I think the brand is "Zep Trailer Cleaner and Brightener"). This stuff is supposed to be diluted in water, down to about 1 part in 10. I used a small amount undiluted, brushing on with an artists brush and then flushing with water after a few minutes. I followed that by hand polishing with Zephyr Pro-40 Metal Polish (the truck shop guy turned me onto that product as well). They came up nicely:

[Linked Image]

If I ever get my mitts on that old BMW air head I'm sort of lusting over, I plan to use this stuff on the cases.
Posted By: Beljum

Re: More on the '64 - 11/02/12 12:18 am


Great job T-Ray! Its getting near that "fire up the garage heater" season.

bel
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: More on the '64 - 11/12/12 8:51 pm

Originally Posted by Beljum

Great job T-Ray! Its getting near that "fire up the garage heater" season.

bel

Right you are, Bel, and I've had it on a few times already (mostly when I was out there loafing), even though we are still getting some good riding days here in central Illinois. But then, since the TR6 is in my heated basement work room, I really have no excuse for the lack of recent progress.

I get hung up over the simplest things. After all this time, I still had not decided what oil I want to put in this engine. I think I have read every oil thread on the Britbike forum. While it's not yet time to fill up the oil tank, it is time to prime the crankshaft -- actually past time, because it would have been easier to do this before the DS rod was back on. A recent post by Mr. Healy helped me decide. I think it's the clearest, most helpful lubricant statement on this forum, so I'll paste it in here complete:

Originally Posted by John Healy
What I look for in oil for a Triumph:
Viscosity 20/50
API SG rated
JASO MA non-friction modified (MA-MA1- MA2)

You should be looking for the same specifications in your break-in oil, especially the 20/50 viscosity (or 40 if it is a single weight). Typically break-in will be compatible with SG specifications and not have any friction modifiers by design.

These oils are marketed for use in motorcycles, especially ones where the clutch runs in engine oil. While a lot of Triumphs clutches run in separate oil, the lack of friction modifiers also helps with the ring break-in process especially if break-in oil isn't used. You are in effect paying a premium for the oil company to leave out the friction modifiers that are the basis of modern automotive oils. If you object to spending 200 to 300% premium for motorcycle oil, if you don't have clutch issues, use it for the first oil change and then switch to a modern 20/50.

Nearly all of the major oil companies offer this 20/50, SG, JASO MA formulation in traditional dinosaur and blended synthetics. Synthetics (rated as above) are perfect for these bikes as long as the rings are seated before it is used.

But IMHO break-in starts with assembly and an assembly lubricant. I have been using Torco MPZ-EAL for rod bearings etc and Torco EAL-HD for camshafts, lifters, valve stem and rocker adjusters and buttons. I don't rely on engine oil for initial start-up especially for the valve train.

No matter which oil you choose there is no more important step in the break-in process than priming the oil system. This includes inside the engine, any oil filters (especially if on the feed side) and all of the oil lines. You want a copious amount of oil flowing through the rod bearings immediately at start up. If the rod bearings runs dry for any length of time you can permanently damage them. This is common service problem with triples where the oil filter is replaced and the oil filter cavity not filled with oil before the cover is offered. It takes the oil pump several seconds to fill the cavity all the while the rod and main bearings are running without oil pressure.

And what ever oil you use there is no better advice than to change it regularly. Most oils loose as much as 40% of their viscosity in little more than 1,000 miles. The exception being Mobil 1.
HTH
John

First I thought he was either crazy or looking at some really old information. API SG -- really? That spec got superseded in about 1994, and the API folks have run through the alphabet all the way up to SN by now. Then there's the ILSAC group. However, nearly all these changes came about due to the cursed EPA, and have to do mostly with automobile engines. Looking about some, I found that John was of course correct. You can still buy 20W50 oil to the API SG spec. You can also buy straight weight, non-detergent, no-name oil if you want to. I decided not to. I thought about using Harley Davidson 20W50, which I have used for years in my you-know-whats. Looking at their jug to see what API spec it meets, I find that it does not carry the API donut on the container. It is certified by Harley Davidson to be the best for their motorcycles, but carries no other ratings on the label. I still think it is good oil, and the TR6 may get that down the road. For initial fill, though, I can go a bit cheaper. I have fitted an oil filter, and cleaned out all the oil passages, so I think detergent oil is a good idea. I'm already using Harley fork oil, and will probably use their primary and gearbox oil when I get that far. My TR6 primary does not share oil with the crankcase, and I've never had a clutch or tranny problem on any Harley. It has served me well for many thousands of miles, and I've got some of each on the shelf.

So, British bike, British oil. The label reads well, and it meets API SG, as well as JASO MA. It's also available up the street at the Auto Zone store at about $5 US per quart:

[Linked Image]

Another hang-up was which assembly lube to use. I had some Lucas assembly lube, which is probably good stuff. However, John Healy and Pete R have posted numerous times about cam lube, and John has often said that there is a difference between regular engine assembly lube and cam lube. He mentioned recently that he has been using Torco (see quote above), so I tracked some down over the internet. The red tube holds the heavier duty stuff for "high pressure points":

[Linked Image]

Then I got to thinking that it would be worth my time to make up one of those elusive CD474 locking tools that Thomas Gunn tells us to use in his Engine Overhaul Manual. I have never seen a picture of one in any of the Triumph Manuals, but there is a blurb in a TriCor service bulletin (Sept. 26, 1967), on how to use the tool. Also, when you google it, up comes a post on TriumphRat where they describe it. So, here's my attempt at it:

[Linked Image]

The long bar is aluminum, 1" by 1" by 7-5/8". The holes are 25/64", and are 6-9/16" on center. The hex-shaped spacers will let me use a couple of my actual 3/8" head bolts. I didn't want to take a chance on running anything else down into my cylinder block threads. The spacers are just some 3/8" barrel nuts (1-3/4" long) which I opened up with the 25/64 drill. The round bar is 11/16" drill rod, 4-1/2" long. The drill rod and the aluminum bar stock came from McMaster Carr.

Also from the same source, I got the proper shim for my crankshaft. I screwed up and ordered the wrong diameter, so had to re-order. 1-1/4" ID x 1-3/4" OD x .016" thick (stainless steel) is a good fit. The bar stock and such gets delivered to my door the day after I order it. Not so fast with the shim stock. That had me hung up waiting for a while.

Finally, another distraction has been the previous owner of my TR6. I posted a picture of him earlier, shedding crocodile tears over losing his old bike back when I first picked up this Triumph from his place (crying on the outside, laughing at me on the inside):

[Linked Image]

Well, he's been at it again. I've been talking with him for several years now about his old smokin' 2-stroker. Last week, we decided to do the deal. Here he is acting sad over losing another one.:

[Linked Image]

While I know that many of you take pride in the fact that you have never swung a leg over a Jap bike, I have to admit that I now officially have more Jap bikes than any other nationality. Here's the 1975 Yamaha RD250 that I brought home last week from Jack's place. I spent a couple days cleaning it up, using that workshop heater that Beljum mentioned at the beginning of this lengthy post:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

You may agree with my wife, who thinks it is an ugly old piece of Japanese crap, but I like it. My first bike ever was a '66 Yamaha YDS3C -- the 250cc Big Bear Scrambler. I haven't heard ring-a-ding-ding for a long time now. Ah yes, another project, and sort of back to my roots at the same time. The guy who went with me to help load this thing is the old high school buddy that sold me the YDS3C back in 1969. He and Jack hit it off well, and we had a grand day:

[Linked Image]

We are still good friends. Things in life sometimes go full circle.

Sorry if I ran on too long again.

Ray
Posted By: 79T140E

Re: More on the '64 - 11/13/12 1:38 am

Another awesome post Ray. Not that I'm into 2 strokes, but that is a really clean looking bike.
Posted By: raf940

Re: More on the '64 - 11/13/12 1:57 am

Ray./.........great bike!! i rode Yamahas of all types as a 'youth' had a 250 Catalina, 250 Twin Scrambler, 250 single scrambler, 125 MX racer, 1975 Xs650, 350 twin, Twin Jet 100, 200 twin and a 175 single scrambler..some of the best bikes ever.....
Posted By: TR6Ray

Short Update - 11/14/12 4:26 am

Made a little progress this afternoon:

  • Bought a new pump-type oil can and cleaned it thoroughly
  • Pumped oil into the crank till oil with no air bubbles was coming past the big end brgs
  • Placed a temporary rubber cap on the TS end of the crank
  • Installed the layshaft needle bearing and sealed its backside
  • Installed the countershaft seal and high gear
  • Installed the breather valve (with a new spring)
  • Lubed all the bearings, bushes, cams
  • Shimmed the crank (.016 on DS)
  • Lightly coated the case halves with HondaBond
  • Mated the cases and lightly snugged all the fasteners
  • Mounted the engine back on its stand
  • Torqued all the crankcase fasteners to spec
  • Verified crank float at .0035"
  • Verified that crank and cams turn freely
  • Draped the "patient" with a clean cloth to rest till tomorrow
Posted By: HawaiianTiger

Re: Short Update - 11/14/12 7:07 pm

Ray,
Many of us are true motorcyclists rather than any other thing, so as long as there are two wheeled contrivances, I'll be happy.
I started on Jap bikes and pretty much have always ridden them in one form or another. My last race bike was a KDX200 on which I dominated my class until everyone else took notice.
I would ride something new, but they don't sell bikes like my KZ550 anymore.
Besides, how could you justify riding a classic Triumph back and forth to work, or to the market to pick up vittles? That's what the Jap bikes are for.
The bike looks fantastic. By the way, if you were to ride a classic bike daily for mundane chores, that one would fill the bill nicely.
Cheers,
Bill
Posted By: TR6Ray

A bit of trouble today -- O.K. now - 11/15/12 4:14 am

Thanks for the comments on the RD, guys. I'm looking forward to riding it, but it needs a few things done before that. The TR6 is first in line.

Got a bit more done today:

  • Annealed some small copper washers and tried to do the head gasket. Don't think I got it hot enough, so will try another method. Malla says an electric stove works for him. I'll try that first. If I can't get it cherry red there, I'll go to my friend's shop and we'll hit it with the big boy torch.
  • Wrestled with the new DS crank seal. Yes, I used P-80 lube, but still struggled. I finally got out a BFH and got 'er done.
  • Installed and sealed the sprocket as per RF Whatley's GABMA article. Ran my old drive chain around the sprocket and clamped it to the engine stand, then torqued the nut to 90 lb ft.
  • Installed the new (to me) clamping washer and crank pinion from a '68 model. Then dug out the cam wheel installation tool. Here is where it all went south on me for most of the rest of the day.

The cam wheel remover/installer looks like this:

[Linked Image]

The removal part worked well during teardown. The installation gave me fits. One minor thing was that the screw-on guides near the bottom of the picture were too big to fit inside the center bores of the cam gears. I lightly chucked the threaded rod part of the tools into my drill press and polished them down to size with a strip of emery cloth. I suspect they were made to the right size, then plated until too large.

The real problem was the tool for the exhaust cam (lower RH in the picture) has undersize internal threads. You don't just run to Ace Hardware to pick up a 3/4-20 LH CEI tap. The threads on my exhaust cam are also a bit notchy. It took close to 4 hours of fooling around, but I got it done. I thought for a while I would need to split the cases again and get the exh cam out to work on it. Luckily, I avoided that.

I set the marks as per the book.

[Linked Image]

I'll probably experiment with measuring cam timing as per Pete R and John Healy's tips. But, dang it, I hope I don't have to R&R that exhaust cam gear again.

Once the center idler was in, I could try out my CD474 engine locking tool that I made up. It worked very nicely to lock the engine for tightening both the RH and LH retainer nuts to 80 lb ft each. I'm loving the stability of this engine stand for stuff like this.

[Linked Image]

Since the square bar is aluminum, it won't scar the cases. After the jugs are back on, the same square bar will bolt on diagonally across the head mtg. deck, and act as a piston stop, both for locking rotation of the engine, and for locating TDC.

[Linked Image]

Here's hoping for a better day tomorrow!
Posted By: HawaiianTiger

Re: A bit of trouble today -- O.K. now - 11/16/12 7:30 pm

Oh, so that's how you use the locking device! I was wondering. Some of us use a spare crankshaft pinion wedged between the appropriate cam gear and the idler. I know it sounds a bit brutal but it works ok.
Mr. Healey reckons that you can relieve the inside diameter of the camwheel where it fits onto the cam for a light press fit instead of an interference fit and rely on the key to keep them aligned. I haven't tried this yet but it seems reasonable to me as long as there is a good fit of the key in the cam-wheel and the cam.
Good luck degreeing the cams. Remember that if you have a serious discrepancy between left and right numbers that it is probably either worn cams or a mis-aligned tappet block.
I put a few motors together in the past with "balanced " numbers left to right before I knew about the frequent problem of tappet block alignment.
I've never heard anyone with as much experience with cam timing lend out so much good advice than that fine fellow from Australia named Pete.
Bill
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: A bit of trouble today -- O.K. now - 11/17/12 7:27 pm

Okay, Bill, you almost made me spew my coffee when I read that -- imagine somebody like you picking up Triumph trivia from someone like me.

Actually, since I bought a later style crank pinion, I could have used my original one as a locking device and saved a bit of trouble. I think that was my plan at one time, but I'm going along so slowly that I guess I forgot. The extra pinion as a lock may be less brutal than it sounds. At least it doesn't involve nearly as many engine components in the brutality, and the torque on the teeth would be the same. I suspect that either way, the forces we put on these parts with a torque wrench pales in comparison with what they have to handle in normal operating mode.

I did find a JH post wherein he said that towards the end, Triumph made things a lot easier by making the cam wheels a slip fit:

Originally Posted by John Healy
. . . In spite of which what is printed in the front of the factory manual specifications, once I discovered that Triumph had abandoned the interference fit, and having spent a lot of my life performing the time consuming ritual of extraction and replacement of cam wheels trying to find the perfect cam timing I abandoned my Triumph D2133 tool. Timing performance cams became a job, that instead of dreading, I looked forward to doing. I have not seen any down side to this, even on the little 500's that we ran to rpm's that I think Turner never believed possible.

Anyway, things have temporarily ground to a halt again while I study up on the subject of cam timing. I dug out Pete R's article in the winter 2011-2012 Vintage Bike magazine, and just ordered the back issue from Autumn 2007 to get John Healy's article. Then there are at least hundreds of threads on the forum that relate here.

I don't plan to get too hung up though. I really only want to go through the exercise to help my understanding, and to satisfy my curiosity as to what the numbers are for this engine. In the end, the cam wheels will probably stay right where they are. The PO told me just yesterday that this bike ran plenty fast enough to satisfy him "back in the day", and it was never apart till now.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Circlips and other stuff - 12/03/12 10:40 pm

When I left off, I was wanting to degree my cams (or at least measure valve events at the stock, factory settings). So, I needed the pistons and jugs in place. I wrestled with piston circlips for a bit and wound up bending one. Not counting on being stupid, I had only bought four new circlips. I ordered some more and started looking for installation tips on the forum. John Healy said that he uses a tool he made from one of those little promotional advertising screwdrivers -- the kind you clip in your pocket. The tip needs to be bent into sort of an open "J" shape. I made one and it worked really well. Later I realized I had made a tool much like the paint can openers already hanging on my pegboard.

[Linked Image]

While waiting on the additional circlips, I decided to assemble the gearbox. Here I followed Redmoggy's method that he detailed in his T120 build. Click here

Thanks, Rod for posting that up. Your method worked well for me. I think I have the shifter indexed okay, but have not tried it yet. I went to put the kicker together and remembered that I was going to check into the parts that got updated for the '65 model year.

[Linked Image]

I'm still not sure what the advantage is, but Triumph shortened the pinion sleeve and added a plain washer for the end of the thackery washer to ride against (rather than contact the bearing's inner race directly). They must have had a good reason. Those parts are waiting now on my bench, so I can go ahead and install the kicker and outer gearbox cover. That will let me see if I can shift through the gears correctly.

[Linked Image]

Speaking of the outer cover, mine does not agree with the '64 parts book, even though it is the original part on my bike. I discovered that it is a hold-over from the '63 model year. It uses the same less-than-ideal "seal" setup for the kicker lever that was used on the pre-unit models.

What I should have:

[Linked Image]

What I do have:

[Linked Image]
For now, I just picked up a new seal. Probably down the road, I will update the outer cover. I want to see if I can get this thing running first before I buy any more parts. Besides, I already polished the existing cover, and a few leaks give a Triumph character.

{Later Edit 8/07/2017} I continued to use the original cover without any problem. After 7,000+ miles, it has never leaked or been a problem in any way. I did go so far as to source the later outer cover with the seal holder, but the one I got had been chrome plated so I did not use it. I still have it in my Triumph spares box.

Next step was to try out those ring compressors that I got a while back.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

They worked just fine. I elected not to use a base gasket, so I slipped the jugs down over the pistons and blocked them up while I daubed on a thin film of Hondabond4, putting a coat on the crankcases and on the bottom of the cyl block.

[Linked Image]

With the jugs nestled down, I used some more of my home-made tools and torqued the base nuts. The Factory Service Manual calls for 35 lb.ft., but Tom Gunn's Engine Overhaul Manual says 25 lb.ft. I went with the more friendly 25. We'll see how that works out.

{Later Edit 8/07/2017} This joint has never leaked at all -- no seep, no weep, no drips, nothing at all.

[Linked Image]

Keeping the extension at 90° to the body of the torque wrench lets you read the torque directly per the wrench setting, since torque is the product of the applied force times the perpendicular distance from the line of force to the center of rotation.

If, on the other hand, the extension is used in a straight line with the wrench body (or at any angle other than 90�), the "moment arm" is lengthened and it becomes necessary to use ratio and proportion to calculate a lesser wrench setting.

I had fooled around all afternoon one day making a degree wheel that fit and worked just great on the TS end of the crank. At the last minute, I decided I would rather have the wheel on the DS. My wife let me "borrow" a muffin tin and I printed out another label. Here's my exotic degree wheel:

[Linked Image]

She got a little disgusted when she found out that I cut a big piece out of the bottom of the pan, and told me she didn't want it back.

I only have one dial indicator. It has served me well for many years now, but it only has .250" of travel. So I borrowed a couple of mag based indicators from my friend TG. This let me set up one for the exhaust tappets and one for the intakes. These indicators each have one inch travel and I was using a pair of two inch extensions with flat buttons on the tips. These rested directly on the tappets.

[Linked Image]

I recorded the degrees of rotation for each of the four tappets at .020, .050, and .100 lift, both opening and closing. I posted the results on the Triumph Forum, hoping Pete or John would chime in and either bless what I had found, or tell me if something needed to be changed. Pete obliged, and told me that it all looked good as is. If numbers are your thing, you can see the results: Click here

Next task is to get that outer gearbox cover assembled and see if my gears will shift properly. I'd sorta like to get the side covers back on and seal things up a bit. Right now, I am keeping a clean cloth draped over the engine when I am not fooling with it.

See you next time.

Ray
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Circlips and other stuff - 12/04/12 6:41 am


By heck Ray, you was leading us all astray when you said you were worried about doing this motor yourself. What an absolutely incredible job your making of it. If you find yourself in need of a later type cover without the inspection hole i have a rough one kicking about.

I'm going to have to pester the Snap On man about that torque wrench!

Rod
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Circlips and other stuff - 12/04/12 5:12 pm

Thanks, Rod, but I found two or three of those outer covers that are a bit closer to home. They are still far enough away for a good mcy ride next Spring.

That Snap On wrench is great, especially for forgetful codgers like me. I don't have to remember to spin the strain gage down to zero before storing it. Being electronic, it shuts itself off after a short time. Turns on with the touch of a button, and another button switches readout between in-lbs/ft-lbs/N-M.

Ray
Posted By: TR6Ray

Outer gearbox cover, other odds & ends - 12/15/12 5:53 am

Well, I'm still inching along with the TR6. Of all things, I got hung up on the o-ring seal for the shifter shaft in the outer gearbox cover. I posted that up on the Triumph forum under a thread called "Shifter shaft o-ring" (Click Here), so won't go into all that here. I did finally get the gearbox buttoned up and was able to shift it nicely up and down through the gears and easily find neutral again. I hope it works that well out on the road some day. Here's a picture of the timing side as it sits now:

[Linked Image]

I'm leaving the timing cover off for now because I want to do something suggested by Pete R. The crankshaft is full of oil from a pump-type oil can and there is a rubber cap on the end to keep it in there. I decided to use a cap instead of a plug, because it will be impossible to put the timing cover on without removing the cap. If I used a plug, I might forget about it, which would be bad news for sure (plus I had a cap already on hand). Pete's suggestion is to get the engine back in the frame and hook up the oil lines. Then wedge the tappets up off the cams and, with oil in the tank, spin the engine till the oil pump starts flow coming out the TS case. At that point, put the timing cover back on. By holding up the tappets, the cam lube won't get rubbed off while priming the oil system. Sounds like a good plan to me. I do have the oil junction block fitted, as you can maybe see in the picture.

So, new parts in the gearbox are:

  • layshaft needle bearings
  • mainshaft bearings
  • all the seals
  • one of the thrust washers
  • the 1965 (and later) kicker pinion sleeve and plain washer
  • the '68 (and later) fourth gear and bush

All other parts checked good as per the specs for new parts, and were re-used.

Special thanks to Hawaiian Tiger for telling me (way back when) to get my kicker and shifter shafts cad plated. I probably would not have done so otherwise, and I like the way they look.

I did two things sort of out of order:

  • I should have put the crankcase vent line on before I mated the cases back together, or at least before I re-installed the gearbox sprocket. It would have been much easier. The helpful GABMA page, Primary Case Leaks recommends using 1/4" fuel line. I had a piece of that handy and compared it to the pressed-in tube -- decided no way was it going to shove up in there. I got some 5/16" fuel line and wrestled it in with some trouble. Had to use a little dentist mirror to peek in and see if it was seated.
  • I also should have sealed the end of the layshaft, as per the GABMA instructions, where it comes clear through the back of the gearbox behind the sprocket. I would up dabbing some sealer on there with a popsicle stick, and checking with my little mirror again.


Next, I hem-hawed around wondering about the lug or "tit" on the sprocket cover. It is an updated part to match the updated 4th gear. I posted that on the Triumph forum as well, in a thread called "Tit on the trapdoor" (Click Here). That post is up to over 100 views, without a single reply, so I guess nobody knows why Triumph added that feature. Little stuff like that bugs me and I waste too much time on it.

At that point, I spun the engine around and fitted the sprocket cover, again just using Hondabond4 and no gasket. I did seal under the 6 little screws as per the GABMA article.

Here are a couple shots of that tit on the trapdoor thing. You can see a small boss at 2:00 o'clock on the cast-in stiffening rib that corresponds with the tit or lug on the backside of the plate:

[Linked Image]

And, on the other side, it appears to have no purpose:

[Linked Image]

I mixed up a bit of JB Weld and filled the chain oiling hole. I think there is a screw on the backside to block it off, but I wanted to make sure. I'll take care of chain lube myself, thanks:

[Linked Image]

I thought I had all my parts clean, but found that some of the clutch parts were still grungy. I cleaned them up and refreshed my memory on how all that stuff goes together. Then I changed out my cush drive rubbers. The old ones looked pretty good, but they are 48 years old and made of rubber -- seemed like a good idea to update them.

[Linked Image]

I also went through all my clutch parts and measured everything as per the specs in the factory service manual. Everything checks good and will be re-used. I guess I will be putting the clutch basket on and off a couple times. I want to check sprocket alignment without the chain in place. We'll see how that goes, especially since I located the crank to the TS bearing (opposite of what the factory did, as you may recall).

Until next time.

Ray
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Outer gearbox cover, other odds & ends - 12/15/12 9:08 am


Hi Ray, best title for a post ever! For what it's worth i have no idea what the Tit is for and stare at it everytime i take the trap door off. I refit it at the 6 o'clock possition just because.

Remember to locktite the threads on that shock absorber. They like to fall out.

Rod
Posted By: TR6Ray

Caught up in Triumph's oily clutches - 12/20/12 7:53 am

How's this title, Rod? It pretty well describes where I am, or have been for the past few days.

Re: the tit -- I've decided it had to do with the felt washer that is no longer there. I may be wrong, but that's what I think click here.

Re: Loctite -- I did indeed clean those threads and use some Blue Loctite. I see you lost one back in July, 2008. See -- I do read all the related threads on here before I do anything. And there is a ton of clutch information on this forum. I also referred to John Healy's informative clutch article in Vintage Bike (Spring 2012). He had a great title for his article: "Don't let it all slip away."

To back up a bit, I mentioned replacing the rubbers in the cush drive. I've read on here that a lot of people find this job nearly impossible to do. There are lots of ways to do it, but I found a way that worked well for me. It's easy to put in the three larger chunks of rubber, but they need to be compressed before you can put in the smaller pieces. If I had a junk mainshaft, I would have clamped it in a vice and then put the hub and cush drive on the tapered end, and used this tool to wind up the slack and poke in the smaller rubber pieces.

[Linked Image]

I could have done that in situ, but thought it might put too much side load on the mainshaft. Then I happened to see some ancient little tire spoons in my tool cart. They look like this:

[Linked Image]

I poked the short, bent ends into one of the cavities where the smaller rubber blocks needed to go, and brought the top ends of the tire spoons together with some channel lock pliers, like this:

[Linked Image]

It worked great. The spider rotated inside the cush center piece, and the rubber went in easily (lubed with some P-80). Once the first one is in, the next two are even easier.

Next task was to clean and check all the clutch disks. Per a tip from Pete R, I washed them all in solvent in my parts washer, then boiled the bonded disks in a pan of soapy water (about 45 minutes). Rinsed everything off and blew them dry with an air hose. I checked them on a glass plate with a .0025" feeler gage. They were flat enough to pass that test. The plain disks did not look glazed, and I decided not to bead blast them.

After reading John's article in Vintage Bike, I got curious about my valve springs. They are original to the bike, from 1964 (part number 57-1830). I took them to my friend's workshop, where he has a valve spring tester. My numbers did not agree with John's, but I'm sure there have been a number of updates in the stock springs. In some cases, I think my numbers were better. Here's what I found:

Free length 1.790, 1.760, and 1.770 for my springs (spec is 1.815)

Wire diameter=.098" for my springs (John's article says .104" -- probably an update for the same part number)

Spring force at installed height of 1.325 (top of screw even with slot on adjuster): John listed a spec of 43 lbs.

I checked at 53, 51.4, and 49 lbs for my three springs compressed to this length.

Spring force at installed height of 1.185 (top of screw even with top of adjuster): John listed a spec of 58 lbs.

I checked at 67, 66.2, and 63.2 lbs for my three springs compressed to this length.

I ran my springs down to coil bind, and measured the lengths at 1.012", 1.009", and 1.012" (John's article says .900" -- again probably an updated spring he was working with).

For what it's worth, here's how mine were adjusted before I took the clutch apart:

[Linked Image]

At reassembly, I plan to follow John's advice in the article, and make the bottom of the adjuster slot be my starting point.

I also ordered another plain disk and found some cork gasket material I had around here. I want to see it looks do-able to go with Pete R's suggestion for adding another plate Click here. A light lever pull would be nice.

Next up, I got out my dial indicator and started measuring runout. They used to call this TIR (Total Indicator Reading), then the term became FIM (Full Indicator Movement). Whatever, it's still runout to me.

First I put on a little attachment finger so I could measure the mainshaft. It didn't even wobble the dial.

[Linked Image]

A closer view -- with some care, you can miss the keyway:

[Linked Image]

Then I put in the woodruff key, slipped on the hub, and snugged it up. This let me check the bearing diameter. I wanted to check every step so that if there was bad runout at the end, I'd know where it was from.

Again, not a wiggle of the needle on the dial:

[Linked Image]

So, I added the cush drive and checked the runout on the outer splines. Again per Pete R's advice, I did this at all six of the possible positions to see if any one engagement position was better than the rest. This took a while, and it takes some care to set up the indicator for making interrupted readings without moving the setting.

[Linked Image]

I measured .014" regardless of which spline position I used. Here you can see the extreme (my dial was set at 0.0 at the first spline measured). My spider has rubbed a little wear on the inner plate. Pete said that you can get this runout down as low as .002", and that you might expect to see .020" or more initially. Duly noted.

Next I wanted to try putting in the 20 loose bearings while holding the clutch basket, just to see if I could. It wasn't too difficult, and I used no grease (just a bit of assembly lube).

[Linked Image]

One of Lunmad's funnier video's deals with this. You have to give him credit for posting up his mistake. If you've not seen this one, you need to watch it: Lunmad Clutch Repair

This done, I built up the rest of the clutch -- all except the springs. I dug around and found some generic 5/16" flat washers I had. They always make washers too large for the marked size IMHO. These had an ID of 3/8" and an OD of 7/8". They fit real well on the clutch adjuster nuts. It makes a quick and dirty way to snug up the clutch components for checking, without dealing with the spring "pips":

[Linked Image]

As a backup check, I measured basket face runout (extreme outer edge) at .005". This doesn't really count for anything. What matters is the runout of the sprocket teeth, which is a tough spot to access. Sure enough the sprocket, just below the tooth spaces also measured .005" runout.

Okay, I assembled the front sprocket, distance piece, key, rotor, and nut, and torqued to 50 lb.ft. I also torqued the clutch nut to the same value. I left the chain and other primary housing parts unassembled.

I used my home-made CD474 tool to let me torque the crank nut, except now it is used on top of the jugs. When I used it before, it was on the crank mouth as shown earlier:

[Linked Image]

With this stuff in place, it was time to measure sprocket alignment:

[Linked Image]

I had planned on using a good Starrett machinist's square that I've had forever, and trust it to be straight. However, it is too long to get inside the case. I tried some other "straight edges" that are not really rigid enough to be sure of. Regardless, I can see I have a problem.

[Linked Image]

I had figured on needing to shim out the front sprocket. Problem is that it is already out about .040" farther than the clutch basket teeth. I did not use a gasket when I assembled the gearbox cover, only Hondabond4, so it's not like I could adjust by removing a gearbox gasket. I could shim between the TS bearing and the gearbox mainshaft, but I don't think I can shim enough to fix the problem. I could also take my front sprocket to a machine shop and get some material removed on a surface grinder.

Note that I did mic the face width on both sprockets and found them to be the same within .0005". I also checked alignment at four or five different rotational positions of the crankshaft, same for the basket. The problem is pretty contstant at .040".

First I want to check alignment with a better tool. As I was writing this, I remembered one other smaller square that I can use. We'll see where it goes from there.
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Caught up in Triumph's oily clutches - 12/20/12 8:12 am


Breath is very much baited Ray.......
Posted By: Pete R - R.I.P.

Re: Caught up in Triumph's oily clutches - 12/20/12 5:23 pm

Originally Posted By: TR6Ray


As a backup check, I measured basket face runout (extreme outer edge) at .005". This doesn't really count for anything. What matters is the runout of the sprocket teeth, which is a tough spot to access. Sure enough the sprocket, just below the tooth spaces also measured .005" runout.


I had figured on needing to shim out the front sprocket. Problem is that it is already out about .040" farther than the clutch basket teeth.

I could shim between the TS bearing and the gearbox mainshaft, but I don't think I can shim enough to fix the problem.

The problem is pretty contstant at .040".


There's a good chance you could fit at 0.040" shim between the shaft and the bearing,and get more 3rd gear engagement at the same time.
Select 3rd gear and see.If the kickstart ratchet nut is loose,you may just be able to push the shaft in a little more than 0.040".As long as the 3rd gear dogs aren't bottomed out,you're OK.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Caught up in Triumph's oily clutches - 12/20/12 8:46 pm

Thanks very much for that, Pete. I had no idea how much shimming could be done in the gearbox. I'd always rather shim than grind, because it is reversible that way. I'll do some more checking.

Ray
Posted By: 79T140E

Re: Caught up in Triumph's oily clutches - 12/21/12 1:46 am

A great posting and photos Ray.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Measuring clutch sprocket alignment - 12/22/12 1:28 am

It always troubles and frustrates me when I measure the same thing three times and get three different results. Thus, I had no confidence in the sprocket alignment measurements I was taking. I worked out another method using some common tools that most of us have at hand, and figured I would explain what I did. Maybe it will help somebody else.

Before getting into that, I put a different (pointed) tip on my indicator and rechecked my clutch basket runout, just to see if I did it right the first time. With this tip, it was easier to get the indicator in place. The measurement still came up .005" TIR, so at least that repeated.

[Linked Image]

Now for measuring the sprocket alignment:
I had been trying to use the method described several places on the Triumph forum. Briefly, you must assemble the crank sprocket and clutch basket complete, except leave the chain off. Go ahead and torque both sprocket nuts. Then place a good straight edge (a precision ground steel rule) flat against the sides of several teeth along the top of the clutch basket. Carefully rotate the other end of the scale down in front of the crank sprocket teeth. Hold it there and measure the gap with a feeler gage.

Some problems here:
  • Those powerful Lucas magnets in the rotor, although possibly not the strongest magnets known to mankind, want to grab and wreak havoc with your carefully positioned steel straight edge.
  • It's hard to fish out which feeler gage leaves you need and hold the straight edge in place.
  • My crank sprocket sticks out further than the basket sprocket, so I need to work backwards.
  • There is little or no room to place the feeler gage in the gap; it's hard to see; it's hard to feel the drag on the feeler gage (assuming you are using the proper combination of leaves to get a drag in the first place).
  • You really need to do this multiple times, with the sprockets rotated differently in order to get a picture of what your chain is going to feel.
  • I'm naturally clumsy to start with.

I put away the feeler gage and went looking for a shorter straight edge. I found an old, el cheapo, Stanley square, the longer side being 8 inches long. Comparing to my Starrett square, it checked out O.K. for straightness.

I measured the width of the blade on the square as 1.513", which is strange, but it'll work. My good machinist's square is exactly 1.000 wide, which is a lot handier to work with, but that scale is too long to fit and use here.

[Linked Image]

For reference, I rotated the crank sprocket till the word "Lucas" was at the 9:00 o'clock position.

I used a Sharpie pen and labelled my pressure plate adjuster nuts as #1, #2, and #3.

Since my crank sprocket is further outboard than the clutch basket, I placed the straight edge against several teeth on the crank sprocket. I used the shorter leg of the square as a handle, and rocked the square slightly back and forth to get a feel for when it was flat against several teeth. Those powerful Lucas magnets actually helped me hold the square steady. The indicator is just sort of along for the ride now, but it will let me know if the clutch basket moves in or out excessively. (I found that I can move it in and out about .005" by pushing and releasing against the pressure plate with my hand.)

[Linked Image]

Next, I extended my dial caliper depth probe a bit further than the 1.513" of the end of the square, and held it in my right hand like this:

[Linked Image]

I rotated the clutch basket until adjuster nut #1 was up where I wanted it. Note that I rotated the clutch basket until a tooth was just past the end of the square:

[Linked Image]

Being careful to hold the square steady with my left hand, I eased the end of the dial caliper probe up against the side of a tooth on the clutch basket. I used the wide end of the square to keep the depth probe perpendicular to the teeth. I was also careful to touch the probe above the slight radius at the base of the teeth, and below where the tooth profile itself has a radius.

[Linked Image]

Then I carefully pushed the caliper toward the square, until the end of the caliper body came up and just touched the square, like this:

[Linked Image]

Now, I took the reading off the caliper face and subtracted the 1.513" width of the end of the square to come up with my measurement. This is how far the two sprockets are out of alignment.

So why label the adjuster nuts as #1, #2, and #3? I did this for reference. After I got done with the procedure I just described, I rotated the clutch basket till #2 came up and repeated the process. Then again for #3. Then, without moving the crankshaft, I started over with the clutch basket at position #1 and did it all again. Then did it a third time.

Then I rotated the crank sprocket till the word "Lucas" was at 12:00 position. I measured again at all three positions of the clutch basket, rotating the basket and going through the process three times.

I kept this up till I had nine measurements for each of the four positions of the crankshaft sprocket (4x9=36 total).

As I was doing this, I was using a calculator to do the subtractions to avoid a mental error. Being lazy, I did not want to punch in something like, say a measurement of 1.550 minus the square width of 1.513 and then hit the equals button. So, I put the number 13 into memory. Then if I measured 1.550", I punched the calculator as follows: 50 minus (recall memory of 13) = 37

I wrote down .037 as the measurement.

Here's a little table showing what I ended up with:

[Linked Image]

As you can see, there is still variation. This is due to face runout in both the crank sprocket and the clutch sprocket. Being careful, but less than perfect, I introduced some error with each of the 36 measurements I recorded.

I took an average of all the 36 measurements (sum of all measurements / 36 = .032")

So, while this may seem a little over the top, perhaps a bit anal retentive, I will feel better putting in a .030 shim instead of a .040 shim. I would hate to have to shim it more than once. Actually, once you get started and develop a feel for it, this goes along pretty quickly. If you are into statistical process control, you could create an "X bar and R" chart, discard the outliers from the measurements,
and . . . I'm joking here, okay?

Following in the footsteps of my friend from NZ, I will say

Cheers!

Ray
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Measuring clutch sprocket alignment - 12/22/12 3:59 am


Wow, my head hurts! Thats some impressive work and serious patience. I suggest finding a bottle of your favourite beer and patting yourself on the back.

Cheers!
Posted By: TR6Ray

Measuring clutch sprocket alignment -- Part 2 - 12/23/12 4:24 pm

Originally Posted by Pete R
There's a good chance you could fit at 0.040" shim between the shaft and the bearing,and get more 3rd gear engagement at the same time.
Select 3rd gear and see.If the kickstart ratchet nut is loose,you may just be able to push the shaft in a little more than 0.040".As long as the 3rd gear dogs aren't bottomed out,you're OK.

Following this advice, I removed the outer cover, broke loose the kicker nut, selected third gear, and measured .049" endplay. It's almost spooky how Pete knows this stuff off the top of his head. I guess it comes from years of experience. I'm glad he is willing to share his knowledge!

So, my previous measurements showed the crankshaft sprocket .032" proud of the clutch sprocket. I'd like to call it good foresight, but it was purely dumb luck that I had a pack of shims on hand (from McMaster Carr) that measured .750 I.D. x 1.000 O.D. x .032 thick, made of spring steel. I had bought these for another application, where they didn't work out. In this case, one of these little gems fit on the gearbox mainshaft between first gear and the TS bearing race like it was designed to go there!

The worst part of this was that I had sealed up the inner and outer gearbox covers with Hondabond4, and used Blue Loctite on all the fasteners. Both the Hondabond and Blue Loctite clean up pretty easily with mineral spirits, but this cleanup took longer than anything else.

(Note to self: If you do this again, dry fit the gearbox covers before you measure the sprocket alignment.)

With things buttoned up again, I redid those 36 measurements as described a couple posts ago, and redid my little table:

[Linked Image]

I used the same process as before for my measuring. Where there is a negative sign, it indicates that the clutch sprocket is now proud of the crank sprocket. I was hoping to average out at zero, but I am not surprised with the results I got. Disassembly, reassembly, cleaning and redoing the Hondabond all come into play here.

{Edit from 8/08/2017: Sadly, this thread that I referenced in the next paragraph, which had a wealth of information about crankshaft location, was part of the great thread deletion that took place by accident here on the BritBike forum back around January, 2014. It could not be recovered. Even sadder is the fact that Pete Russell, genius engineer, machinist, mechanic, and all around great guy, has passed away.}

Here's another line from Pete in a different thread. ('64 crank location) where he was talking about sprocket alignment:
Originally Posted by Pete R
0.010" is the max. allowed,it doesn't hurt to go better than that.
Start by measuring the overall width of both sprockets;you want them central,not just lined up on one side.

My sprockets were the same width within .0005", and now they are aligned within .004" so today, I am a happy man!

Final comment: The other thread that I just referenced was started by DMiller, who did this same job on his '64 Bonnie back in 2010. It is remarkable to me how closely my engine has compared to his.
  • We both changed our crankshafts to locate to the TS (they were both originally located to the DS).
  • He ended up with better rod alignment to the bores after he did this -- so did I.
  • He ended up with his crank sprocket .030" proud of the clutch sprocket -- mine was .032" proud.

Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Measuring clutch sprocket alignment -- Part 2 - 12/23/12 5:23 pm


Bloody good Ray, nice work.

Rod
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Measuring clutch sprocket alignment -- Part 2 - 12/23/12 5:45 pm

Thanks, Rod. It's time to clean up the work area and think about that beer you mentioned. beerchug
Posted By: TR6Ray

Closing up the primary side - 01/03/13 2:44 am

With the sprocket alignment resolved, I took the clutch basket back out so that I could install the primary chain and other parts. The rotor nut was already up to torque, and I hear that these rotors are fragile, so I left it as it was. I installed the chain oiler (reused the old one), then the clutch. This meant playing with those 20 loose rollers for the clutch again. With the chain wrapped around the basket this time, it was a little trickier. I didn't want to, but I used just a dab of grease on each roller this time to temporarily keep the little buggers in their place.

Although the old chain checked out fine per the test described in the Factory Service_Manual, I put in a new chain just to be safer.

I thought about using Pete R's method of gluing cork in the bottom of the basket and adding another plain clutch plate, but decided to see how I get by with the stock setup first. So, in went the 12 plates and the pressure plate. I put in the chain tensioner (the old one looked fine, so I re-used it).

Next, I rolled the engine over next to the bike to temporarily hook up the clutch cable. I have a new cable, but will have to modify it a bit. My '64 vintage clutch lever bracket on the handlebars won't let me install a cable that already has the barrel (item #32 in diagram below) on the end of the cable (no cable slits in the bracket or adjusters). Item #25 in this diagram is the main issue. I could get a later style, but I already got the old one chromed and want to keep the original parts. If I knew then what I know now, I'd have sourced later parts and gotten them chromed if needed. I had to make my own front brake cable for this same reason.

[Linked Image]

Anyway, I lubed up the old original clutch cable and temporarily hooked it up so that I could adjust the clutch. I ended up with the spring nuts adjusted differently from where they were at teardown. I used John Healy's recommendation of running the spring nuts on until the tips of the threaded pins were even with the bottom of the screwdriver slots. Then I pulled in the clutch lever and spun the engine. I went ahead and used my dial indicator against the pressure plate to measure wobble. I got it under .010" TIR, but one adjuster is different than the other two. It is just above the bottom of the screwdriver slot, while the other two are flush with the top of the nuts.

Next, in went the antique stator (pre-encapsulated, you know), with a new rubber grommet and the harness sealed up as per the GABMA article Sealing Brit Primary Cases. I measured .009" clearance between the rotor and stator (all the way around), so I guess I'm okay there. I've seen differing opinions on how much clearance is needed. I understand that the rotor expands as the engine heats up, and can ruin an otherwise nice day if it starts rubbing the stator.

Here's what everything looks like now.

[Linked Image]

I put the degree wheel on the TS end of the crank and used the CD474 tool to find TDC. This let me mark reference lines on the rotor and stator with a bit of white paint. I ran the line up far enough to include the rotor center so that I can check later to see if the outer part of the rotor has come loose and spun around it's center. Then I set the crankshaft to 38° BTDC, and made another mark. Here's a closer look:

[Linked Image]

I labelled these like on a Japanese bike where T=Top, and F=Fire. I know my lines are a little crude, but I checked by spinning the engine over and lining up the marks. When I checked my accuracy with the degree wheel, I had it right on the money. Now, if that paint will just stay in there for any length of time, I should be set for ignition timing. The idea of using a crankshaft locating pin came along after my engine was built.

For some time, I've been thinking about getting a newer style (1968 or later) primary cover, because it would be nice to have the little 3-screw cover that comes off and lets you strobe time the engine. High rpm with an open primary scares me. I know lots of people run open primaries down the road all the time, but I'm from a factory background. I've seen people get caught up in open machinery, and also hurt when something shelled itself. So, just in time, I got a good deal on one from a BritBike_member.

Just a little plug here: choppadude has an ad right now on the BritBike Garage Sale Forum. He shipped the parts quickly and did a great job packing them. They arrived looking just like the pictures he sent me. Thanks very much, Steve.

I originally wanted this as a scatter shield for initial timing. My plan was to stick the '64 cover back on later, to keep things looking original. The "new" cover had a few of the scrapes and dings typical for a part from a bike that gets used, but it was in better shape than I expected. I really have to be in the mood for polishing aluminum. It takes me forever, and I'm not real good at it, but I talked myself into it. Here it is on the engine:

[Linked Image]

I think it's going to stay there, but I'll keep the original in case I get crazy and sell this bike, or even try to show it when (if) it's done. I told this to a friend and he started laughing at me. "Oh yeah, you're a purist for the original look, right up till the convenience factor kicks in!"

I guess he's right.

Next up will be the cylinder head -- oh good, I get to try my hand with PRT seal crush! I've been thinking about putting the engine back in the frame before it gets too heavy, but what's a few more pounds. I like the engine stand, and I have some hefty people to help out when the time comes.

Happy New Year to all of you.

Ray
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Closing up the primary side - 01/03/13 8:44 pm

Originally Posted by Allan Gill
I find its not lifting the engine, it's getting it in or out that last bit without smacking the fins on the frame.

Looking good though! I can't help but wonder why you haven't gone for an encapsulated stator???

Allan, you are probably right about the head. Maybe I should just fool around and try to measure my PRT seal crush while the engine is on the stand, then get it back into the frame with the head off. As for the encapsulated stator, I guess I'll claim ignorance. I didn't realize until just recently that these were susceptible to vibration damage. It's in there now, so I guess I'll take a chance and see how long it lasts.
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Closing up the primary side - 01/03/13 9:31 pm


It's fairly straight forward to measure crush and install the head with the engine in the frame. You have to juggle the rocker boxes to get the headbolts in buts thats the only hard bit. I have never tried fitting the engine with the head on. I always lift it in and out by hand and can imagine it would be easy to damage something with the head on.

The only problem i would have with the stator is it's possible lack of output if using a modern H4 bulb and a voltage sensitive ignition system. Aside from that, if it aint broke?

I'm impressed with your patience Ray. I could not have rolled that motor close enough to hook up the clutch cable and not slotted it in the hole!

Happy New Year Mate.
Rod
Posted By: Pete R - R.I.P.

Re: Closing up the primary side - 01/04/13 4:05 am

Originally Posted By: TR6Ray
It's in there now, so I guess I'll take a chance and see how long it lasts.

If it's not broke,don't fix it.It may last a very long time.They can be more fixable than the encapsulated stator.If you know which coil fails,you can chop the wire and run on 2/3 output until you get around to fixing it.

Good job on the sprocket alignment.You'd have to be happy with that,even if it did require the patience of a saint.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: Closing up the primary side - 01/04/13 3:54 pm

Originally Posted By: TR6Ray
As for the encapsulated stator, I guess I'll claim ignorance. I didn't realize until just recently that these were susceptible to vibration damage. It's in there now, so I guess I'll take a chance and see how long it lasts.
Odds are your current stator will last a long time. Although they are more susceptible to damage by vibration than the encapsulated version, many other things are likely to break on your bike before the stator does. Only if somone is feeling wealthy and likes to throw money at a restoration, or is planning a cross-country trip on the bike and doesn't want to risk any chance of the stator failing at all, would it be worthwhile to replace a perfectly good stator with an encapsulated one. If it were me, I'd keep the current one and not worry about it.

I say this despite having had one unencapsulated stator fail on me due to vibration. That stator was on a very-abused BSA when I got it, so the stator likely was 40 years old at the time and with an unknown number of miles on it. It survived another ~3000 miles of vibration from the single-cylinder engine before the ignition coils on the ET stator failed.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Closing up the primary side - 01/07/13 6:02 am

Originally Posted by Redmoggy
It's fairly straight forward to measure crush and install the head with the engine in the frame.

Hi Rod, and I hope your new year is already off to a good start. Like everything else, nothing is straightforward for me and this old TR6.

I don't feel too badly though, since the number of posts dealing with PRT seal problems on the BritBike Forum almost rank right up there with oil discussions and rocker box O-ring issues. I have decided to set the engine into the frame minus the head, but I want to get the PRT squish figured out first. I fooled with it a bit yesterday but I am going to have to get some different seals. The ones I have came in a gasket set, and there is no way they will go in. I can't even assemble them into the head while it is lying upside down on the bench. Compared to my old seals, the I.D. is smaller and the cross-sectional width is wider. By the time they are stretched a bit to encircle the top end of the PRT, the O.D. of the seal is about .027" larger than the diameter of the counterbore in the head.

If I place the seal into the counterbore first, and try to wiggle the PRT into place, the seal I.D. is so much smaller than the O.D. of the PRT that there is no way to get it done. The kit I have is for a '68 T120 (bought on the cheap from a friend), but the top seal is supposed to be the same part number per the manual. I'm thinking maybe these seals are assumed to be used with the wedding ring setup, which I don't have. Anyway, I'll order some from Klempf's and try it again. It should be a simple deal, since the head, head gasket, jugs, PRT's, and tappet guide blocks are essentially the same as before -- no machining has been done relative to the fitment of any of these parts. The seals I have are just not right. If the seals I order don't work out, I have my eye on some viton O-rings at McMaster Carr that should work.

Originally Posted by Pete R
If it's not broke,don't fix it.It may last a very long time.They can be more fixable than the encapsulated stator.If you know which coil fails,you can chop the wire and run on 2/3 output until you get around to fixing it.

Good job on the sprocket alignment.You'd have to be happy with that,even if it did require the patience of a saint.

The "If it's not broke . . ." is sort of my philosophy too, Pete. I am really grateful for your help and advice with the sprocket alignment, and with so many other parts of this project. I never would have gotten this far without your input.

Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Odds are your current stator will last a long time. Although they are more susceptible to damage by vibration than the encapsulated version, many other things are likely to break on your bike before the stator does. Only if somone is feeling wealthy and likes to throw money at a restoration, or is planning a cross-country trip on the bike and doesn't want to risk any chance of the stator failing at all, would it be worthwhile to replace a perfectly good stator with an encapsulated one. If it were me, I'd keep the current one and not worry about it.

Thanks for the comment, Magnetoman. I had to chuckle about the "many other things are likely to break on your bike before the stator does." After studying this forum as much as I have, I know exactly what you are talking about. But I guess that is half the fun of these old bikes.

This talk of encapsulation prompted me to search out and read some of the older posts on the BritBike Forum related to stators, including several where you had posted. I found this one especially interesting. Then some memory cells clicked in and I remembered that out of the six bikes I have around the place, five have non-encapsulated stators. The other one I am not sure about. So I guess I won't get too hung up about the Triumph yet.

Final comment for the day: Thanks for the interest shown in this project. I know it must be pretty lame for many of you who are experts, the way I go on about things, and most of you would have had this bike on the road a couple years ago. I've been trying to write this up with two things in mind -- first as a kind of build diary for myself, and second to hopefully help other rookies like myself if they should wander into a project like this. Hence, all the seemingly unnecessary details that most of you would take for granted.

Ray
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Closing up the primary side - 01/07/13 9:17 am


Ray, i dont know much about your PRT assy, but, i did once have the chance to compare a 63, 66, 68 and 69 head. The counterbore in the underside of the head were all different depths with the 63 i think being the shallowest. This always led me to believe the assembly would be a bit unique. I am sure you will find a suitable solution. I have always set crush as per the book and had no problems, however this is quite a bit more than is recomended on here.

Anyway, keep up the good work. Your attention to detail is impressive and makes for an interesting and educational read.

Rod
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: Closing up the primary side - 01/08/13 2:38 pm

Originally Posted By: TR6Ray
This talk of encapsulation prompted me to search out and read some of the older posts on the BritBike Forum related to stators, including several where you had posted. I found this one especially interesting...
That old post refers to the same failed stator as the one I mentioned here a few days ago, and describes the reason why the ones that do fail, fail. There's now an encapsulated E.T. stator in that bike, mostly because that's what came up first on eBay, and it has gone a further 3-4,000 miles with it.

People should keep in mind that tens of thousands of bikes were made during the years unencapsulated stators were used, so it's not like their failure rate could have been huge. Encapsulation took a failure rate that already must have been fairly low in an absolute sense, but too high in a mass production sense (1%?), and made it lower.

If I were starting from scratch on a bike, I'd buy an encapsulated stator. But if I already had a functioning un-encapsulated stator, and wasn't building a bike that I expected to be reliable for many thousands of miles of use as my sole source of daily transportation (which would be silly -- I'd buy a Honda for that...), I'd use the un-encapsulated one.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Wrasslin' with seals -- PRT's & RB shafts - 01/14/13 4:30 am

When I left off the last time, I was struggling with PRT seals. The ones I had were from a gasket set. No way were they going into place. I ordered some from Mitch Klempf, asking him for four each of 70-1496, and 70-3547, which are the part numbers from the '64 Parts Book. He also said he had another seal with a thickness in between what I asked for. Good -- I got four of those too. Then I had him throw in eight O-rings for the PRT's. Being the opimist that I am, I hoped I wouldn't destroy all of these before I got them assembled. Hey, maybe I'd even have some to put on the shelf if I got really lucky!

First off, the PRT seals he sent me DO have the proper inside and outside diameters to assemble correctly. Having read almost everybody else's techniques that have been posted on the Triumph forum, I tried to follow suit. I read that putting the top seals on the PRT's and then setting the head down on them was sure to cut the seals. I also read Redmoggy's technique of assembling the head, the upper seals, and the PRT's and then setting the whole assembly in place (bottom seals already in place on the tappet guide blocks).

None of this works on my '64. Here's what my PRT's look like:

[Linked Image]

Notice they are each a one-piece unit, with no loose rings, no wedding bands, or any of that stuff that came later on. Here's what the top and bottom ends of my tubes look like:

[Linked Image]

I measured the seals I got from Mitch at .100", .125", and .180" thick. Right away, I figured out that the bottom seal had to be the thickest of the three. The cup formed in the bottom of the PRT is .125" deep. I got metal to metal contact (no possible seal crush) at the bottom with either of the thinner seals. Here's the thick seal (70-1496) in place:

[Linked Image]

Up on top was another issue. Here's a picture of the underside of the head, with a PRT sitting in place:

[Linked Image]

This baffled me for a while, till I realized that the flange is a light to medium press fit into the counterbore in the head. With my hand, I could push it in till the top surface of the flange on the PRT contacts the bottom of the counterbore in the head. So, okay, I can use either seal thickness here.

I started out with a .180" thick seal on the bottom and a .125" thick seal on top. With my PRT's pushed into the head, the assembly won't fit over the jugs. You also cannot put the seals in the head counterbore first -- they won't stay in there when you turn the head upside down, and you would never get the PRT inserted anyway (the seals have to stretch a bit to go onto the tube. So, I put the lower seals in place, set the PRT's onto them (top seals on the PRT's) and set the head in place. WTF? I had all kind of clearance. Oh -- those top flanges were not pushed all the way into the head. I put in some head bolts and gently put some pressure on to bring the head down, then made sure the bolts were fully loose.

Now I was measuring .055" seal crush. John Healy says go for .030" to .040" crush, and Pete R says he doesn't like to see more than .030". Great, we're in the ballpark now. I took out the .125" top seals, and put in the .100" thick ones. Voila, .030" seal crush!

Measuring PRT seal crush: No picture, but I had the head (and head gasket) sitting in place with all four outer head bolts partly run in (not snugged down at all-- simply acting as guide posts). I measured by using a .030 feeler gage simultaneously on both sides of the head, just opposite the spark plug holes. I got the same slight drag on both gages, so I think the head was sitting level.

On to the infamous ROCKER BOXES!

I've been following an interesting thread on the Triumph forum that deals with this topic Are suppliers shipping the wrong rocker O-ring? But, there are quite a few others as well. Reading all of these, it seems that the commonly supplied O-ring (size 2-011) is too large in cross-sectional area to fit the groove in the RB shaft cap, yet John Healy says he fits this seal routinely with good success.

Bob G quit using O-rings a long time ago, using only Hondabond4 applied to the cap. He has had good success. Can Rocker O-rings be replaced while on the bike? Others recommend: vaseline, grease, P-80 lube, loctite, silicon, etc. John Healy loves the P-80 lube, but says sealants won't work in this spot. 71 T100R and the Thackery Unpleasantness.

Many say that it is normal and acceptable to shave a bit of the O-ring at installation.

John says, "It is not acceptable unless you want the "o" ring to leak oil!!!!!!!!!!!"

John also advocates (numerous times) adding a 15° lead-in chamfer to the bore in the rocker box, using a scraper knife. He said that the Triumph drawings called for said chamfer, but he has never seen an original rocker box with this feature.

Ed_h machined in a tapered lead-in on his rocker boxes with a tapered reamer and some other tooling he devised ed_h website

Some love the Triumph special tool for installing the seal. John Healy says, "In my experience the tool works a little better with the edge beveled, but is still a crap shoot. I love throwing the things - like away." Rocker spindle O-ring installation

So, what to do? John likes those scrapers. I got one in my machinist apprentice tool kit back in a previous lifetime (about 39 years ago, now). Might as well give it a try here.

[Linked Image]

You can see a chamfer started in the bore. I was holding the box in my left hand, the scraper in the right, and working uniformly around the bore. I kept the scraper at a precise 15° angle to the bore (I have calibrated eyeballs). With the chamfer a little larger than shown here, I had a go with one of those Triumph special tools. Hey, I bought it -- I had to see if it might work.

No good -- I sheared a pretty good chunk of rubber. John Healy likes to use a small screwdriver bent into the shape of an "open J". With the tip dulled off, you can use it to push the O-ring into the groove. The idea is tap the shaft in with a hide hammer (I used a small steel hammer and a wooden dowel). Get the seal about to enter the bore. Tuck with the screwdriver, tap with the hammer, tuck, tap, tuck, tap, etc.

I had a try with this method and sheared a lot less rubber. Plus, the rubber stayed in one continuous ring. Maybe that's good enough?

Here are the tools I'm talking about and here's what I cut off in attempts #1 and #2:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I couldn't help it, I had to see what the rest of the seal looked like from my attempt with the little screwdriver. Here are several views of what I saw when I popped the shaft back out:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Back to the drawing board. I did a lot of measuring and calculating. Most of my measurements were different than those expressed in the first link I mentioned, since they were talking T100 and I have the whompin' TR6/R 650. Here's some of what I measured:

Rocker box bore dia = .626"
Shaft cap dia = .625"
Groove width = .070"
Groove dia = .551"
Seal cross section = .070"
Relaxed seal O.D. = .450"
Relaxed seal I.D. = .312"
I.D. of special tool at small end = .641"
Seal installed on shaft cap stands approx. .014" proud on radius

Conclusion: my chamfer is too small. A 15° right triangle with the side opposite the angle being .016" long will have a side adjacent to the angle with a length of .060". So I cut my chamfer accordingly.

This means that the .626" bore with said chamfer will have an initial opening of .626 + 2(.016) = .658"

This is bigger than the "outlet" of the special tool. Here are a couple pictures to show the chamfer that cut the O-ring (first picture) and the one that worked (second picture):

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I tried it again, using the special tool. When the tool popped off, the seal was almost completely in place. I tucked with the little screwdriver (not sure I really did anything here) and tapped the shaft home. Not a bit of rubber popped out! Did the other rocker box the same and got the same results. Hallelujah!

Will it leak? Who knows -- only time will tell.

Here's a picture showing all the fiddly bits and pieces from the bottom side. The guide pin mentioned in the service_manual is a good idea. I didn't have anything metal lying around that was the right diameter, so I used a wooden dowel, which got the job done:

[Linked Image]

And a final picture, showing all the implements of destruction that I had out on the table just to install some crazy little O-rings:

[Linked Image]

Can I put the engine in the frame now? No!

I got to thinking about those bigger valves I put in the head. I also got to thinking about Redmoggy's TR6 "speed demon" episode where his pistons kissed his exhaust valves. Pete R told him to check radial clearance -- valve to piston pocket, and to measure clearance at TDC. I really think I have no problem here, but I've measured every other thing on this engine. Might as well put in some clay (Pete said "plasticine" -- I need to google up what that is exactly, perhaps Aussie modeling clay??).

After that, assuming clearance is proper, the engine WILL finally go into the frame!

Rod, if you check in here, did you ever do that clearance check? Not to put you on the spot, but I have an inquiring mind. This is also a check to see if you read all the way through my tripe.

Cheers,

Ray

p.s. A couple more idle thoughts:
  • It's almost always a good idea to listen to John Healy. I basically only did what he has said many times was the proper way to install these O-rings. But I do sort of like that special tool!
  • I did read that the T140 grooved RB shafts are supposed to fit my rocker boxes. If this old bike wakes up and runs someday, that should probably be an update near the top of my list. It sounds like my push rods and valve stems will get little or no oil otherwise.
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Wrasslin' with seals -- PRT's & RB shafts - 01/14/13 5:25 am


I'm impressed you remembered my little incident, Ray. Teached me a lesson, no more drink riding!

No, in the end i did not check the valve/piston clearance. I did'nt simply because i found the fault that quite obviously caused the problem. Remember i had been riding the bike for some 12000 miles before i bent that valve.

Plasticene is a kiddies sort of modeling clay that does not harden. I don't know what you would call it in the states but i have seen Maggie Simpson playing with/eating the stuff!

I agree about doing what John says!

Rod
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Wrasslin' with seals -- PRT's & RB shafts - 01/14/13 6:35 pm

Rod, some people ride their TR6, while others fool around measuring stuff. You are lucky to be in the first group. I hope you are enjoying the season.

Thanks for the description of Plasticene. I looked up that stuff in Wiki. It evidently predates Triumph (at least the gasoline powered ones), being formulated in Bath, England in 1897. Must be some good stuff.

Ray
Posted By: JubeePrince

Re: Wrasslin' with seals -- PRT's & RB shafts - 01/15/13 3:23 am

Originally Posted By: TR6Ray
  • I did read that the T140 grooved RB shafts are supposed to fit my rocker boxes. If this old bike wakes up and runs someday, that should probably be an update near the top of my list. It sounds like my push rods and valve stems will get little or no oil otherwise.


Hi Ray,

Yes they will fit, but you will also need to:

a) Be certain that the rocker arms have the divots machined in them to direct oil flow.

b) Reverse the order of the thackeray and thrust washers on the ends of the rocker arms (you will need 4 thrust washers with 1/2" ID)

c) Use the later acorn spindle nuts with the UNF thread.

Very nicely done and documented build!

Cheers,

Steve
Posted By: Snakeoil

Re: Wrasslin' with seals -- PRT's & RB shafts - 01/29/13 3:38 am

Ray,
First my compliments and thanks for very detailed and complete write ups and pics. I am at the primary assembly step and Pete sent me here based on questions I had. Very helpful.

Regarding engine installation, my suggestion is put the frame on its side on a blanket with cardboard under the blanket as a cushion and put the engine in on its side. This allows the engine to rest on its side and you can manipulate it into position without banging it around on the frame. Leave the head off. Gives you more clearance to work. Did mine all alone before winter set in.

For future ref you can do you straightedge alignment check with your and a small pocket scale graduated in 100ths and a small magnet. Replace the caliper with the scale and hold it to the square with the magnet. With the scale sticking out bring the square into the sprocket with the scale touching the tooth on the other sprocket. When the square is brought flush with sprocket the scale will be moved. Then just flip over the square and read the scale. You can read a scale in 100ths within 5 mils which is pretty good. Use a jeweler's loupe and you can do better. This is how I measure rim offset.

Regards,
Rob
Posted By: TR6Ray

A short update - 02/01/13 8:58 pm

Just a quick note to those who have posted here:

Rod, I couldn't find the Plasticine, but I did find something similar. I went through the routine of measuring valve / piston clearance twice. It is not as easy as it sounds to get a good measurement on a small thickness of clay. I think it was okay, but I wound up taking about .015 off the rim of the valve pocket on the intake side of the pistons. The radial clearance was what had me concerned.

Steve, Thanks for the info on the rocker shafts. I am going to keep that on the back burner for now, but it sounds like a good idea. I want to see if this thing will run well enough (without blowing up or anything) before I do several improvements down the road. I will keep note of your recommendations.

Rob, Thanks for the comments. I have a couple steel scales that read in 100ths, but have never trusted my eyes enough to use them. The other edge reads in 50ths, and I can handle that. Dial (or vernier) calipers just make life easier for me. Your method sounds like a very workable way to get around the issue of only having two hands when we sometimes need at least three.

The engine is back in the frame finally. Like so many things, I worried about it for way longer than it took to actually do it. I waited for a Saturday so my husky step-son could be there to help me. He got called in to work Saturday. I finally decided I was making too big a deal out of it. I put the fuel tank back on a shelf and removed the oil tank as well (I wanted to redo the oil tank's bottom mount anyway, and I really didn't want to dent anything). Then I unbolted the engine from its stand and gently laid it on its side on some padding to remove the legs that were bolted to it. From there it was easy enough to pick it up and set it in place. With the bike on its centerstand, I went in from the timing side and had my wife poke the front mounting stud through the frame lugs. I had some wood cribbing under the bottom of the frame and set the cases down on that. No scratches or bumps, and I didn't even wrap anything beforehand for protection!

I've been buttoning some things up and will get another picture post up here before too long.

Ray
Posted By: TR6Ray

Chain tension, Wheel alignment, OPRV & other stuff - 02/16/13 8:53 am

When I left off, I had mentioned claying the pistons. I did that a couple times before I got it right (I think). The stuff similar to Plasticene stayed in place a little better, but is still tricky to measure. Somebody told me to put the clay on in strips sort of like the peace sign.

[Linked Image]

I guess I already mentioned this but the intake valves looked close. I took off about .015" radially on the piston valve pocket for more clearance. Now I'm just hoping for the best.

When I got done fooling with all that, I set the engine back into the frame and started doing up fasteners. It took a while just to sort out what went where, in which direction, and what washers to use, etc. I think I got the hardware back in as per my pre-teardown pictures.

Drive side:
[Linked Image]

I went to get the new chain out of the storage bin, and looked for a long time before I realized I had never ordered one (I did, but for one of the other bikes). Had to wait a few days till it showed up. I put it in and tensioned it. That big ol' chain guard is kind of a PITA to work around, but I managed. It can't be removed with the wheel in place, so I hung it up with string while I put the chain in and then put the chain guard back in position.

[Linked Image]

I really needed a 103 link chain, but did not order one with the cranked link (which the original chain had). I cut the new chain down to 104 links and used up most of the adjustment (it came as 112 links). When the chain wears/stretches a bit, I'll take out another link. I have the same problem with the DS adjuster fouling the brake spring as recently discussed on the Triumph board. I should make a bushing to center the brake spring, like Snakeoil posted here, but I haven't done it yet.

I tensioned the chain to have 1" up/down free play at the middle of the bottom strand (more on that later), eyeballing to line things up. Then I looked for a way to check my alignment. There are roughly 137 ways to do this. OK, I'm exaggerating -- but not much.

Back in March, 2011, Cycle world Magazine did a review on a tool called ProAligner that looked interesting. They cost US $30, and are available over the internet. I'm pretty cheap, so I made my own blatant copy for free to see if it would work for me. Here's my version made from graph paper and a bit of cardboard:

[Linked Image]

Closer up, it looks like this:

[Linked Image]

I'll just say that this involves lying down on the floor (unless you work with your bike on a lift, which I don't) and using line of sight. Suffice to say that it might work outdoors in better light, but only if I buy new tri-focals. I gave up on this and looked for another way. For full details, find the back copy of Cycle World. You can look at the ProAligner website, but they tell you everything except how the tool works. I guess they are afraid that some low-life would make their own instead of buying one -- imagine! They promise to send full instructions when you order the tool.

I've read all about lasers, aluminum straight-edges, fluorescent light tubes, 2x4 lumber with notches to clear the centerstand, etc. However, I happened to have a roll of string so that was what I used.

With a piece about 15' long, I folded it in half, poked the center through the back wheel and brought the ends through the loop. Then I pulled the ends up along the wheel, like this:

[Linked Image]

It helps to drop the bike into gear (yippee! I can finally do that again), so the back wheel won't turn.

I had to pass the string through the centerstand like this:

[Linked Image]

I measured the width of the back tire:

[Linked Image]

and looked around for something heavy that was the same width. The idea is to keep the strings parallel all the way out to the front of the front wheel. One way is to wind the string around a steel scale (ruler) or even a piece of dowel rod with grooves cut the same distance apart as the width of the back tire. I happened to find this on a shelf -- a vise with jaws the same width as the back tire (4.10"):

[Linked Image]

I just set the vise on a wood block in front of the front wheel, pulled the string ends tight, and clamped the vise shut on the string. With the steering damper tightened up a bit, I could keep the front wheel from turning (left or right).
[Linked Image]

With a bit of fiddling around, I got the strings to barely touch the front sidewalls of the rear tire on their way past. Then I could measure from the string to the front tire in four places:

[Linked Image]

When the strings are touching the sidewalls of the rear tire in four spots, and the distance from the strings to the front tire sidewalls is equal in four places, the wheels are in line. It is a bit of fiddly work, but not too difficult.

When I got all done with this, a bell went off in my head, and I decided to see how tight the chain was with the shocks compressed. I found a post by Hawaiian Tiger where he said he uses ratchet straps to do this, which is what I did. I used a strap on each side, making a loop around the upper frame rail and the swingarm. I found that with my rear axle roughly in line with the swingarm pivot and the mainshaft, the chain was as tight as a banjo string. A post (I think by Stuart) said that the recommended free play in this position was equal to the pitch of the chain. I'm using a 530 chain, so I needed 5/8". I made the adjustment and relaxed the shocks. I now had 1 3/8" free play instead of the previous 1 inch. I wrote this down as the proper adjustment for this bike. It's only necessary to do this once, so I won't need to compress the shocks again.

After moving the wheel carefully and counting flats on the adjuster nuts, it should have still been aligned. I set the string back up and checked it again anyway -- good practice.

You may have noticed in the pictures that my cylinder head is still missing. I left it off because I wanted to be able to prime the oil system by turning the engine. Without the head in place, I could keep the tappets up off the cams and therefore not rub off the assembly lube (learned this from Pete R).

So, the next thing was to plumb the oil lines. I read all the pros and cons, but still elected to use 5/16" I.D. fuel line from the AutoZone Store. I re-used the 1964 clamps, after getting them cad plated.

Before I hooked up the feed line at the bottom of the oil tank, I filled the line using a clean pump-type oil can. At that point, the timing cover was still off. I turned the engine till oil started coming out the hollow dowel in the timing case. This told me that I did not have my feed / return lines reversed. I also filled the oil filter which is now plumbed into the return line.

Oil lines:

[Linked Image]

oil lines from underneath:

[Linked Image]

I installed two new Pioneer Weston lip seals in the timing cover, and put the cover on. Next up was the OPRV, and I still didn't know what I wanted to use here. My bike had the older style oil pressure relief valve with the button (as it is called in the parts book) that pokes out to let you know you sort of have oil pressure. I had read that these were a bad thing -- a leak waiting to happen.

I had bought a later style valve cap without the button and got the later spring as well. When I measured the spring, it had 1.400" free length. The spec in the book is 1 17/32" or 1.531". I started reading and found close to a dozen other people who had made the same discovery. I figured the service manual maybe had a typo, but it also listed the spring rate, and a compressed length at a given force. If you do the math, these numbers coincide with a free length of 1.531". There seems to be some confusion here, and this is rather important. I decided to re-use my old setup. (I had both versions cad plated, just in case).

Here is a big hats-off and a beer chug to Beljum. For his WVK345 build, he found a flexible, high temperature, oil resistant, viton tubing material available from McMaster Carr and posted the link that takes you to the very part number needed http://www.mcmaster.com/#5102K12

He also rode his WVK345 14,000 miles and gave a follow-up report. This tubing was holding well, and not leaking.

I ordered a lifetime supply (2 feet is the minimum order and you need about 1.100" to do the job). True to form, it was at my doorstep by 2:00 p.m. the very next day. I love McMaster Carr.

This shows the 1964 style OPRV vs. the later style (1968 I think):

[Linked Image]

The later version is simpler. You can see the additional parts required for the 1964 version. Unlike Beljum's older Pre-Unit, my modern 1964 OPRV uses an O-ring and cup in the end of the big acorn nut. I had tried to get these new, because I destroyed the old cup getting it out. After being told they were made of un-obtanium, I had given up some time ago. I have lately been getting some parts from Mitch Klempf, and gave him a try. He said, "Sure, how many should I send you?"

Those and some other gaskets he sent me arrived today, and I was able to install the OPRV. So, I took a big chance and poured oil into the oil tank on this British motorcycle. With the oil pressure plug out of the timing cover, I turned the engine with the kicker till oil started coming out the pressure tap opening. I put the plug back in and should have quit there. But, of course, I couldn't leave well enough alone.

The OPRV in place, showing the button:

[Linked Image]

I wanted to see that button come out to show I had oil pressure. With my hand on the kicker, I gave the engine about three sharp prods (easy with no cyl head in place). The button never came out, but the return pump primed itself and I started getting return oil. I knew this because the RB feed line was not yet in place. I had to make up a quick cap for the tee at the base of the oil tank. I was getting oil on my (choke) pristine floor. laughing

I had not expected this, because I have read posts by people who said it took about a hundred kicks to get return oil. I think the speed of engine rotation is a factor here.

Well I've rambled too much again. It's early morning here and time for bed.
Posted By: GrandPaul

Re: Chain tension, Wheel alignment, OPRV & other stuff - 02/16/13 4:00 pm

Excellent narrative & pix. Keep it up!
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Chain tension, Wheel alignment, OPRV & other stuff - 02/16/13 8:41 pm

Grandpaul, thanks for the encouragement. I did not realize till a few days ago that you are the moderator on the Rat Forum. I only rarely go there, but was looking around and found a whole bunch of BritBiker Forum people on that site. I guess I need to start paying more attention over there.

Allan, thank you as well for the comments. {Edit from 8/09/2017 -- this was in response to comments by Allan Gill that were deleted in the great BritBike thread disappearance of January, 2014} The ProAlign tool probably works fine, but my lack of light and poor eyes were the problem. Their website shows some pictures of it in use. There is also a YouTube video here that shows the tool more clearly, but doesn't show it in use. The tool that they sell for US $30 is like an old folding ruler that carpenters used to carry around before steel tape measures got popular. The idea is to unfold the tool so that it is the correct height for your bike (as tall as possible such that you have clear line of sight wheel to wheel with no interferences). The tool is then leaned against the front of the rear tire. You then lie down on the ground in front of the bike and sight along the tires at the gage reference marks. I made my version by freezing the YouTube video where there was a clear picture (after the guy quit flipping it around, etc). I estimated the size of the tool and used a piece of graph paper. I also did some measuring on my bike and made the graph paper to the appropriate (fixed) height for my bike. Then I needed some cardboard to make it more rigid. I had to drink a 12 pack of Bud Light so that I could cut up the empty package (that's how I explained it to my wife). Anyway the websites give some idea of how it works.

Once my bike is out in the sunlight, I'll try this thing again. I did try some extra lights in the shop, but was getting shadows that caused problems. If it looks promising, I'll probably buy the real tool. It is nice in that it folds up small and will fit any motorcycle. On Jap bikes, I have always just used the marks on the swingarm to align the wheel (most people say that isn't accurate enough). On my Harleys, the Factory Service Manual tells you to measure from the center of the swingarm pivot to the center of the axle, making it the same on both sides. My '92 FXRS actually has small holes in each side of the swingarm for poking in a home-made gage and measuring to the axle. Again, many say this is not accurate. It has always worked for me, but maybe I'm not as fussy as some.

I got frustrated looking for directions on how to use the ProAligner on the internet. I finally found a site that referenced the March, 2011 issue of Cycle World, which tells in detail how to use the tool. As it happened, I had saved that issue because it had an article on the Cannonball Rally. I'd scan the tool review and post it, but we are not supposed to post up copyrighted material on here.

As far as the clay check, I clayed the piston valve pockets (all four), then assembled the head with head gasket, push rods, and complete rocker boxes (no push rod tubes). I then adjusted the valves and rotated the engine through two complete revolutions. Then I took it apart again and checked the clay. There was no problem on the exhaust side, but the intakes were very close radially. The frustrating part was that after all the assembly/disassembly I got this on at least one of the valves:

[Linked Image]

The clay stuck to the valve and came off the piston. I was still able to measure, but not with a high degree of confidence. I think I'm O.K. though. Time will tell.
_________________________________________________________

A couple other things that hung me up last week related to my speedo cable. I had emptied one bag of parts and used them all except for one clip. I could not remember where it was to go, and my frustration made me determined to find out. After going through the parts and service manuals and all my pictures, I finally found this post by jays375 on BritBike. He was struggling with the same thing. He got answers that were wrong, but led me in the right direction. I'm not putting this up to poke at anyone, but to maybe help someone else who is working on a '64 model. They told him that the clip was only used on the T-Bird with the nacelle, but not on the TR6 or Bonneville. It is actually used on all three models.

Here is a picture I found from the teardown which barely shows the F3098 (82-3098) clip in place (nearly hidden behind the wiring harness), and, below that, a picture from now:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Believe it or not, I think I spent 4 hours on this mystery.

Once I figured out where the clip went, it led to more frustration. I decided to go ahead and install the speedo cable. Easier said than done at this point on a 1964 Twin. It should have gone on before the outer gearbox cover was installed. The cable is driven off the gearbox, not the rear wheel. With the oil lines and outer gearbox cover in place, it is almost impossible to access the cable nut. In fact it is impossible with an open end wrench.

Here's what I am talking about:

[Linked Image]

With a ground-down 5/16WW box wrench (ring spanner if you are in the UK) you can get the wrench on the nut by sliding it down the whole length of the cable from the other end and then wiggling it onto the nut. Problem is, you can only swing the wrench about 1/16". There was just enough offset in the wrench that I could slide it back off the cable, turn the wrench over, slide it back down the cable and get another 1/16" motion. It took about 40 minutes to tighten the cable nut. Very frustrating! I could have removed the oil lines junction block and installed the cable, but the Catch-22 is that with the cable in place, I could not reinstall the junction block. I think I will order another wrench from British Tools and grind clearance into the shank to fit. That would weaken the wrench, but leave it strong enough for the cable nut, making it a special-use tool.

So . . . I can now proceed with my cylinder head, rocker boxes, exhaust system, etc. That will help it look more like a motorcycle. It also means I need to make myself get out the Amal_Monobloc and the main wiring harness and give them some attention. Both are still grungy, but both were original to the bike and I suspect are usable after a good cleaning.

So long for now,

Ray


_______________________________________________________________

[Edit] Some additional comments for originality freaks, purists, rivet counters et al:

In this picture there is something troubling to me -- the brake rod and switch.

[Linked Image]

In nearly every picture I have seen of a restored 1964 Triumph TR6 or Bonnie, the brake rod is shown like mine, plated in white cad, but not painted. This includes Wayne Hamilton's extensive collection, and I also noted it in Hughie Hancox's book Triumph Production Tester's Tales from the Meriden Factory, which I read recently. Pictures of bikes that he personally restored showed it this way.

Yet my bike, which I believe to be original, had these parts painted black before I took it apart. Here is a pre-teardown picture:

[Linked Image]

I know that the springs (kickstand, centerstand, brake light switch, rear brake return spring) are also supposed to be painted black. My thought was that the paint would simply flake off as the springs were flexed in use. For now, I'm leaving this stuff in cad only. I just thought I would mention the fact that I believe the brake rod should be painted black to be correct. I also think you might get points off in a bike show if you paint yours black, because the judges may not agree!!

And finally, one more picture for Snakeoil:

[Linked Image]

Rob, if you happen to see this, it shows my brake return spring as it was when the bike emerged from the barn. The adjuster was fouling it, even though the spring looked centered. After all my work, I think it is a bit worse. The spring does not center by itself, and the adjuster still fouls it. When I get the ambition, I'll try your fix with the plastic bush inside the spring.

{Edit from 8/09/2017 -- I never got around to adding that plastic bush, and the spring has been working fine for over 7,000 miles.}
Posted By: GrandPaul

Re: Chain tension, Wheel alignment, OPRV & other stuff - 02/17/13 2:17 pm

As long as the clay is not pinched through to bare metal anywhere, you are probably safe.
Posted By: Pete R - R.I.P.

Re: Chain tension, Wheel alignment, OPRV & other stuff - 02/18/13 1:15 am

Originally Posted By: GrandPaul
As long as the clay is not pinched through to bare metal anywhere, you are probably safe.

The pistons can rise about 0.040" higher in the barrel when the engine is running.They also rock around slightly.
0.030" radial clearance is a good idea.
Posted By: TR6Ray

A little progress, and a setback - 02/19/13 6:05 am

I got a little more done on the TR6. The head, rocker boxes, torque stays, inlet manifold, and the RB oil line are back in place, and the valves are set. With a couple spark plugs in the holes, I don't have to keep a drop cloth over the bare top of the jugs anymore. I also got out the exhaust header pipes. These are the ones that came on the bike from the factory, but have been re-chromed. They were wrapped up in a March, 2010 newpaper, so have been on the shelf for a while.

[Linked Image]

Here they are just stuck on loosely.

I was going to fit the new silencers and tighten up the exhaust, but hit some problems. These are "new-in-the-box" silencers from TJ Wassell, Staffordshire, but I have had them on the shelf for quite a while. Here's a clip from the Factory Parts Manual. I have all the pieces shown here, and all are original to the bike, other than the silencers. The silencers carry the same part number as listed in the 1964 Parts Manual.

[Linked Image]

The silencer has two tapped bolt holes to attach the 70-4951 bracket (item# 15).

First snag, the original bolts would not fit. Okay, the new silencer has been updated to 5/16-24 UNF threads, so I got some new stainless bolts to fit.

Second snag, the bolt holes are about 1/8" farther apart than on the original silencers. Although the item#15 brackets have slotted holes, the silencer holes are too far apart to assemble. I might be able to slot the brackets a bit further without destroying them, so I tried to test fit with only one bolt attaching the bracket.

Third snag, the tapped holes on the silencers are too close to the front of the silencer. The upper hole in the bracket will not align with the hole in the pillion foot peg bracket. (Well, O.K., it would, but the silencer would only be about 1/2" engaged on the header pipe -- not even far enough onto the pipe to cover the clamping slots in the muffler inlet.

I wanted these mufflers because they are the closest to the originals of any that I have seen. Now I'd just be happy with some that would fit. These were expensive and were special ordered from the UK, which took quite a while. I guess the lesson to be learned here is don't order parts till you are ready to fit them. Then if they are not right, it is easier to send them back.

I'm not sure what to do here, but will probably make new brackets to fit the silencers. I would have thought that being the same part number, they would have been a bit closer to spec.

I'm also a little leery of the mass of these silencers that sits in back of the hanger bracket. It looks to me like a big old moment arm for the weight of the muffler to bounce up and down going down the road. That looks like probable flexing of the header to silencer connection and probable failure. Hmmmm, I wonder if that is why the main body of the silencers was made shorter the following year?

Ray
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: A little progress, and a setback - 02/19/13 6:17 am

The long silencers were fitted to all home market bikes up untill 69. I have Armours one's on the TR6. They did fracture at the join before the silencer and after some mucking around i found it was due to the header pipes pointing slightly inwards when tightened up. I've brazed them back together at a slight angle to compensate. Anyhow, if you need a couple measurments from another manufacturer let me know.

I also tried some Brituro silencers. They sounded horrible and had more of a point at the end of the silencers than i liked.

Rod

Oh, and that looks so very pretty!
Posted By: Pete R - R.I.P.

Re: A little progress, and a setback - 02/19/13 6:31 am

The only easy way out that I can see would be to make mount (15) out of 1" wider flat steel.
The lower holes would be drilled toward the front,and the top hole offset 1" from the lower holes (toward the back).

At least you'd have a slightly stronger mounting bracket.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: A little progress, and a setback - 02/19/13 2:47 pm

Originally Posted By: Pete R
The only easy way out that I can see would be to make mount (15) out of 1" wider flat steel.
The lower holes would be drilled toward the front,and the top hole offset 1" from the lower holes (toward the back).

At least you'd have a slightly stronger mounting bracket.

Pete: That's exactly what I had decided to do. On the timing side bracket, I may need to make the mounting strap a bit longer on top as well, in order to provide a non-stressed position for the silencer. Oh well, something to play around with and do a little heat & beat.

Rod: I guess you are correct about the continuing use of the big resonator silencers. 1964 was the last year of them for the U.S., but they were used in other markets. Thanks for the offer of the measurements, but I think I'll stay with these cans and see if I can make them work.
Posted By: kommando

Re: A little progress, and a setback - 02/19/13 5:13 pm

The UK kept to the resonators until the introduction of the balance pipe in 69 allowed the short silencers to meet the noise regs as the balance pipe reduced the noise. I have a 65 T120R to restore so will fit the shorty's but may also fit balance pipe pipes, you get the lower noise, better support of the pipes and better mid range power and be legal in the UK but not orginal.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: A little progress, and a setback - 02/19/13 11:24 pm

Thanks, kommando, that's interesting information. When I first got this TR6 and started reading about it, Wayne Hamilton and his crew had just finished up with their '64 TR6 restoration. Here's the silencers they used:

Wayne"s Triumph Motorcycles -- 1964 TR6

[Linked Image]

And by comparison, the TR6 at the Barber Museum. I think I also got this picture from Wayne Hamilton:

[Linked Image]

I decided to go after some silencers more like the original ones on my bike (like the bottom picture). Being a naive beginner, I thought I could save the originals, but wised up and realized they were too far gone.

Some day I hope to get out to Apache Junction, Arizona and visit Wayne Hamilton's museum. He is quite the purist as a collector.
Triumph Museum in Apache Junction
Posted By: kommando

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 02/20/13 10:18 am

Quote:
He is quite the purist as a collector.


Yes I noticed he got rid of one 65 T120R to replace it with another, hard to see any difference in the photos but in the flesh he no doubt considers there is enough to justify changing. He is posting the new 65's rebuild which shows the level he is going to for originality, as the pre 66 unique parts are hard to find and I am missing a lot I will be making compromises, some I want anyway like a 4 plunger pump and nitrided cams but others like the tank Petrol I have no choice if I am to stay in budget. Yours will be much more close to original than mine and I am closely following it too, if only I can approach your standards I will be very happy.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Exhausting work - 03/31/13 4:47 pm

I see it's been over a month, so a bit of update. When I left off, I had found that my TJ Wassell silencers didn't exactly match the old ones. Mainly, the mounting bolt holes were too far apart to fit the brackets, slightly (.06") out of line with each other, and too close to the front of the silencer to allow proper engagement to the header pipe. Other than that, they were perfect! crazy

[Linked Image]

So I got out some 1/8" thick HR steel plate, cardboard and sheet metal for templates, and set about to make some brackets.

[Linked Image]

This wasn't as straightforward as it seemed. Because these hanger brackets are so far forward on the silencers, a little error is greatly magnified by the time you look at the rear tip of the exhaust. Also, the header pipes and pillion brackets vary a little from DS to TS. Lots of tedious tweaking, cutting and grinding (and test fitting) involved.

First thing was I needed some kind of mandrel to form the radius of the clamps. I wound up borrowing a used dump truck part from a friend, which was close enough to work pretty well. It was a steel tube about a foot long, 3 1/2" diameter and maybe 3/4" wall thickness. I clamped this in my vise and formed the brackets around it.

Here's a comparison of original vs my imitation:

[Linked Image]

I had to make mine wider to accommodate the silencer mounting holes. In an attempt to add some stability, I made the top tab taller and cut it to match the shape of the pillion peg bracket where it mounts. I also decided to add a hole for a second bolt through the pillion bracket (so . . . yet another deviation from stock).

Because the silencer has UNF threads, I couldn't use the original CEI bolts that I'd had cad plated. So I got some stainless steel bolts. To make them match a little better, I filed the markings off the heads and bead blasted them. They could almost pass for white cad plated fasteners. This tip came from Jon at British Tools & Fasteners, who has been most helpful to me -- a good outfit to deal with!

Another fiddly bit was laying out and drilling holes in the bracket to match the silencer. Because these are diverging holes, I had to measure the outside of the silencer, yet layout the holes on the inside of the bracket. Otherwise, the thickness of the plate was enough to throw off the hole spacing. But I didn't want to slot the holes, and being retired, I took the time to fool around here.

[Linked Image]

I was also thinking about how, in 1966, Triumph added the strap to go from one silencer clamp bolt to the other one underneath the frame. In my mind, this means both sides of the exhaust system dance as partners, but they still dance. However, I have read on the forum that this was a useful thing to extend the life of the silencers. Even more important, this plus the "L" brackets up front would help keep the exhaust stubs from working out of the head.

Problem: I added that oil filter right in the way of said strap, so what to do?? I made some more brackets. We'll see down the road whether they work. Here, the DS bracket is at the top of the picture, the TS one at bottom:

[Linked Image]

On the DS bracket, I added a piece to go inboard, underneath the drive chain, and hold a rubber bumper pad for the center stand to rest against in its up position. Like many people, I found that the arm of the stand was going to rest against the new chrome silencer if I didn't do something with it. You can add weld or even add set screws to the top of the centerstand to keep it from going up too far, but I decided to give this a try. Ace Hardware has various sizes of these little bumper pads. The tweak in the bracket makes the pad match the angle of the leg on the center stand.

The brackets pick up the pillion bracket mounting holes and go on the inboard side. They are mostly hidden from view. It's tight, but there is room:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Staying with the concept of nothing being easy, you can't just cut these pieces out of 1" strap. If you do, the little tabs at the bottom that bend out to accept the silencer clamp bolts would be angled forward. They need to point straight out to the side. To do this, I laid out the brackets on some wider stock (see the sheet metal template in the earlier picture) and then cut them out and bent them. I cut out a separate piece to accept the little bumper pad, and had my friend weld it to the bottom of the "L" shaped bracket for the DS.

Next up was a problem with the tabs brazed to the header pipes. These came from Meriden (or one of their suppliers). I'd had the originals chrome plated (maybe a real dumb idea). The one on the TS pipe was good:

[Linked Image]

But the DS pipe had been broken and repaired somewhere in history. The weld wasn't great, but it was hidden and the pipe had fit okay. I had the pipe plated. Well, I needed to tweak it a bit to line up the pipe. When I did, the chrome cracked and I could see rust and corrosion down in the weld area. Probably the acid dip had not been completely neutralized.

I really didn't want to re-braze the chrome pipe, but that would have been the right thing to do. Instead, I looked for some "P" clamps. Nobody knew what I was talking about till I found some at Rask Cycle, out in PA. Gary, who works there, was nice enough to take one out of the bin and measure it for me before I ordered a couple. These are nicely made parts, that fit a 1 1/2" O.D. pipe, and will actually clamp it securely:

[Linked Image]

I promptly destroyed one of them. I shortened and bent the tail piece 90° and drilled a 7/16" hole in it to replace the brazed bracket on the header. It almost fit. I had to tweak it about another 10° and that's when it cracked at the bend. (Would have been a perfect fit! mad ) I ended up making another little bracket from my steel plate to accept the bend. This is reeallly close under the primary chain case. I tried various ways and it fit good upside down . . . till I tried to put the sidestand up and that was a no-go. I finally got it to fit and hope it works. There is no room for a second bolt, and again, I did not want to braze the chrome bit.

I had to cut off the original tab and paint the pipe with some high temp header paint to prevent rust:

[Linked Image]

This came out about as pretty as a newborn warthog, but the clamp will hide it. The clamp sort of messes up the clean lines of the exhaust, but I had to do it:

[Linked Image]

Anyway, I know it fits, cause it's been together and apart about a hundred times. I once had each side fitting well and thought I was done. Then I looked from behind and one pipe was an inch higher than the other. They also were not centered about the rear tire. Back to the drawing board!

When I put them together this time (after the paint hardens a bit more) I am planning to use a bit of gray hi-temp silicon to seal the joints. I'll then hope for the best.

I didn't find this part of the project too enjoyable, so I kept finding reasons to stay away from it. Not much got done this month. But I did spend some time studying up on Triumph electrical systems -- the next thing to work on. As usual, and to quote another famous Brit, "Much ado about nothing!"

Ray
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Exhausting work - 03/31/13 6:06 pm


My word Mate, i know you wanted to use what you already had but my toys would have been all over the floor by now! As ever though you have made a very nice job.

Good to see you back at it.

Rod
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Exhausting work - 03/31/13 9:12 pm

If I was starting again at the get-go, I would use re-pop header pipes and the later style, smaller silencers. Perhaps as Kommando said, fit the crossover pipes. I think it would have been much simpler.

My '64 doesn't have the "L" brackets at the front, where they tie to the case stud ends, or even the tabs on the headers to fit them. I'm thinking those might be a good idea. I've seen pictures with them clamped around the pipes, which may be a good idea. We'll see. Maybe that will be on the next go-around -- I've read posts on here where the silencers can fail in the first 500 miles, no matter how careful you are.

{Edit from 8/09/2017 -- Over 7,000 miles so far on the bike, and no cracks or damage in the exhaust pipes or silencers. The DS p-clamp and homemade bracket are still in use and doing the job, as are the brackets that tie onto the silencer clamp bolts.}
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Exhausting work - 03/31/13 9:40 pm


The trick with the silencers is to be very carefull how stressed they are where they join the headers. The Armours silencers i have were just a little oversize and would not clamp down tight to the header pipes. They lasted 15000 miles, then i made up a shim from a drink can and clamped them down tight. They broke pretty quick. I brazed them several times off the bike and they kept breaking. The last time they broke i was in a rush and brazed them in place. It was then that the problem became apparent. The header pipes angle in slightly where they meet the silencer. This shows up when you view the repaired silencer from above. The stubs on the silencer now exit at a funny angle but they have not broken yet. You need to have the front pipe clamped solid to the head when you slip the silencer on, if you have to pull it to reach the bracket it's going to break.

The short silencers will give your bike a much louder tone compared to the longer ones. Fitting the L brackets will also only help if everthing else fits, i know that from experience. My bike should have a simple cross piece in place of the L brackets.

Anyway, just some thoughts. Sorry to rabbit on again.

Rod
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Exhausting work - 03/31/13 10:15 pm

Thanks, Rod. That all makes sense to me. I'm trying to get it all fitted with no pre-stressed connections.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Exhausting work - 04/04/13 3:10 am

Well, I made a bit of progress today. The exhaust system is on now, and all tightened up. It's aligned the best I could get it. I smeared a bit of Hi-Temp gray silicon at each of the four connections. Here are some pictures:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

The little bracket I made (pictures in last previous update), with the rubber bumper pad, seems to work okay. The side loop on the center stand would be hitting the silencer without the pad in place. Here is the clearance between the center stand and the silencer.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Exhausting work - 04/04/13 4:45 am


Just absolutely stunning Mate. Bolt the carb on a go?

Rod
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Exhausting work - 04/04/13 1:46 pm

Thanks, Rod. It's not quite ready to bolt the carb on and go. The only wiring on there right now is for the front and rear lights. Well, the stator wiring is there, but stops in space underneath the engine. So that will be the next thing. The carburetor was last used in 1971, then sat in a barn for 38 years. For the last several, it has been sitting inside a coffee can on my shelf, where it lives now. I'll look at that once the wire harness is in place.
Posted By: T140V-Rich

Re: Exhausting work - 04/05/13 3:03 am

Wow. That is a beauty, Ray. Hat's off to you. I've enjoyed reading every word and seeing every photo. You realize you're encouraging me to get off me duffer and get back in the fettling shed? Blimey. I was enjoying the break and now you've gone and done it. smile

Cheers

Richard
Posted By: GrandPaul

Re: Exhausting work - 04/05/13 2:05 pm

So close...
Posted By: TR6Ray

Some electrical stuff - 04/16/13 8:59 pm

I have spent a ton of time reading through old threads on here about all things electrical, and kind of stalled out on the bike work while trying to decide how to proceed. I decided to at least put the coils on.

Since this bike started life with a 6V system, the proper coils were there for the Boyer, if they were any good. The only multimeter(s) I had around were a few from Harbor Freight. For a while they were giving them out free with a $5.00 purchase. I didn't trust these much, so I decided to pick up something better without breaking the bank. I got a Sperry DMM.

With this, the old coils checked 1.9 ohms; for primary resistance, (which is what the Boyer wants) and showed no continuity to the case from either the primary or secondary terminals (good). I cleaned the coils up and was going to use them. Then I realized I had not checked for continuity between primary and secondary. I found on here that this should read about 5 to 7 K-ohms; or so. The Sperry was showing infinity (I thought) so I figured the coils were bad. I got a pair of Indian made Lucas coils from Mitch Klempf and they checked the same. Hmmm.

Looking a bit closer, the Sperry only checks to 4 K-ohms; and it was not showing infinity, it was showing OL for "over limit"! Duh.

With the little Harbor Freight junk meter, I found the reading to be 4.9 K-ohms;. I'm going to use the old ones and keep the new ones for spares.

The coil mounting brackets were different from side to side, perhaps a running engineering change, or one is aftermarket??

[Linked Image]

One side is stamped out such that it does not need a "D" washer. The other side uses two of them, both of which were toast. I think these are aluminum and were squeezed from overtightening. They split when I tried to open them up.

I checked around and couldn't find any, so I made some pretty easily from a piece of 1/2" steel rod from the junk bin. I drilled a 3/16" hole through the center, split it lengthwise, then crosswise with a hacksaw. Here's what I mean:

[Linked Image]

A bit of poor man's cad (Rustoleum Silver) and they're good to go.

With the coils on, the plug wires were the next problem. The original wires used straight-in connectors and this caused the wires to rub the seam on the bottom of the fuel tank. Here's one of the wires I took off the bike:

[Linked Image]

I made up some wires with 90° ends, and they fit without rubbing.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

It's probably been at least 35 yrs since I made a plug wire, so I had to buy some crimpers. This is a pair by Belden, along with the copper core wire, and the boots and terminals I used:

[Linked Image]

Here's the business end for the 90° coil terminals, along with the wire cutter and stripping jaws:

[Linked Image]

Below the pivot point are the jaws for the other style terminals (for either 7 or 8 mm plug wire):

[Linked Image]

Another important tool for the job is some good rubber lube. John Healy promoted the use of this stuff, and I agree with him -- it sure makes life easier:

[Linked Image]

The boots need to be slid onto the wire before you make the terminations (at least for the 90° coil end). The P-80 makes this very easy to do. (Sorry, this picture is a bit out of sequence, but gives the idea):

[Linked Image]

As with any stripper, you don't want to bite the insulation and spin the cable. That can "ring" the copper wire. The jaws are made to cut the insulation without nicking the conductor. Bite, release, turn the wire, and repeat. Three times around the wire, and it comes off cleanly:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I found that 3/4" strip length worked well. (Remember to take this into account when cutting your wires to overall length.) Then you just bend the copper wire back along the cable and hold it while you crimp on the terminal:

[Linked Image]

This picture is kind of dark, but it gives the idea of how it comes out. The brass will curl around, following the jaws, and grip the insulation on the cable. There should be about 1/4" of cable sticking past the terminal. The boots are made to accommodate this:

[Linked Image]
(More to follow)
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Some electrical stuff - 04/16/13 10:50 pm

On the plug end, you do the crimp in two stages, using one part of the crimper to get started, and another (depending on 7 or 8mm wire size) to finish it:

[Linked Image]

Finished, it looks like this, and it is easy to slide the boot into place (maybe with a bit more P-80). The copper wire is bent over and trapped between the terminal and the insulation on the side opposite from the curled crimp:

[Linked Image]

With the coils in place, I pondered a long time and finally decided where to place the Boyer box. Thanks to the coil bracket without the "D" washers, as mentioned earlier, the coil on one side stood far enough out to make room for the box. I drilled a couple small holes through the frame stiffener plate, dabbed in some POR-15 paint, and poked some tie-wraps through. I added a couple strips of foam seal to help dampen vibrations:

[Linked Image]

Because the box extends out past the front of the stiffener plate, the tie-wraps pull it back against the coil bracket. I got around this by adding a couple short pieces of fuel line hose around the tie-wraps:

[Linked Image]

This spot was chosen to hide the box in a place where the wires are nearest to where they need to go.

Another issue was that of the rotary Lucas switches on the sidecover on this bike. There is one for the lights, another for the ignition. Both are Lucas type 88SA (used on many British bikes, even those things called BSA). These puppies are expensive to buy NOS (US $115.00 for the ignition, $150.00 for the light switch). I just knew mine were crap inside, but I wanted to save them if possible. I took the ignition switch apart, only to find that it looked remarkably good inside. Lucas sealed these up pretty well and used dielectric grease. The grease was discolored, but the copper was still fairly bright.

This adventure reminded me of when I was a kid and decided to take apart a pocket watch to see how it worked (that didn't end well), but I got through it O.K. Here's what I did with the ignition switch --

The switch body is die cast pot metal, with the back made of brittle Bakelite. The Bakelite disk is held in via three crimps:

[Linked Image]

What worked well to open the crimps was to clamp a 24mm socket in a vise, sticking barely out to one side. The switch terminal pins will fit inside the socket like this:

[Linked Image]

Then I tapped lightly around the periphery of the crimp with a small hammer:

[Linked Image]

At first, I only opened the crimps enough to get the switch apart. Later I found that re-assembly was easier if the crimps were fully open. This method opened the crimps to where it was difficult to even tell where they had been.

Here's a look at the guts, showing the original grease. Note the open pocket where there was no contact wiper. That's correct. The inside piece of Bakelite is evidently used for different switch bodies. It's a bit easier to see in the second picture below:

[Linked Image]

There are five springs inside that make re-assembly a bit fiddly. Here's where they are located. Also note the slot (picture below) and mating lug (picture above) to orient the position of the Bakelite contact plate:

[Linked Image]

So, I took the switch apart and cleaned everything, adding some fresh dielectric grease and thinking the whole time, "How do I get this thing back together without breaking it?"

The detent ball and spring want to push the disk off center, yet to put the other disk in place, the end of the center shaft must enter a central hole in the disk. The spring on the center shaft wants to keep the back of the switch unseated. All of this needs to be fitted together and then held while fresh crimps are made. The main problem I worried about was breaking the Bakelite back. I figured I needed something that would maintain the shape of the switch body while I made the crimps.

I looked around and found a piece of 1-1/2" black pipe that was slightly smaller ID than the OD of the switch body. I took this to my friend's shop (I don't have a lathe), and we bored the end to 1.450", about .20" deep. The switch body has a lug on the outside:

[Linked Image]

So I used a Dremel to cut a clearance notch inside the pipe. It looked like this:

[Linked Image]

Now the switch body was a very light press fit into the pipe. With the pipe in a vise, and the switch in the end of the pipe, only the very edge of the crimp area was exposed (about .09"). I then assembled the switch and used a socket to push down and compress that pesky center shaft spring. While doing that, I used a small drift and a hammer to form three new crimps:

[Linked Image]

Not quite as pretty as Lucas did at the factory, but it works:

[Linked Image]

The last step was to use the Lucas diagrams on the GABMA site. I found what I needed on page 17 of this .pdf document. It shows which contacts are supposed to be connected by the internal wipers for each of the three switch positions. I checked continuity for every pin at each switch position (also making sure that no continuity existed where it shouldn't) -- not that I thought I had made an assembly error you understand whistle , I was just seeing if the Lucas parts were still any good.

They were bigt

Based upon the internal appearance of the ignition switch, I decided not to disassemble the light switch. Instead, I cleaned the outside thoroughly, and then checked continuity as on the ignition switch. It passed the test and will stay together.

Finally, after a lot of thought, I have decided to modify and re-use my original harness. I am going to buy a proper crimper and some spade terminals, probably from British Wiring.

By the way, you may have read on BritBike that Lucas never soldered their harness connectors. I am here to tell you that, yes -- they did. My harness is original to my 1964 TR6. It has Lucas tags fluttering from the rotted loom weave. There is not a single bullet that was crimped. They were all soldered. Also, while the spade connectors were nicely crimped, there is also a tiny bit of solder on each one. The female spade terminals appear to me as if the copper wire was pushed against the blade and spot welded in place. I'll add some pictures as I clean up the old harness.

Ray
Posted By: TR6Ray

Some more electrical stuff - 04/25/13 11:40 pm

Here's the wiring diagram from the FSM, for 1964 Coil Ignition 6-Volt Models:

[Linked Image]

I've been looking at this recently, as well as at the GABMA pages and other places. On my '64 TR6, I'm thinking I will re-use my original harness, but modify it. My harness is original and uncut, but a little tatty from living in a barn. After I die, if somebody in the future cusses me out as a DPO wire mangler, who ruined an original harness, then so be it! I won't be around to hear it anyway! laughing

There's just too much goofy stuff they did in 1964 to make anybody other than a 6V, points only, non-regulated, AC-available-in-emergency, purist want to keep it original.

So I think I will start by removing the hi-lighted wires, along with the rectifier, AAU, and breaker points (there is no Zener to remove, cause it never had one):

[Linked Image]

Notice that this leaves no power (in fact, no wires at all) going to the ignition switch! That is because power was originally fed from the light switch to the ignition switch. IMHO, that was another bit of craziness in 1964. You, or anybody else, could turn the lights on and leave them on, even if the ignition was locked with that little straight-bladed screwdriver type key. I realize you can still do that in even a modern car, but only if the doors are left unlocked. A motorcycle should be dead, dead, dead, when the ignition is off. If anybody is crazy enough to leave parking lights on when they break down, they can turn the key on as well. In my book, all the parking lights did was attract thieves with trucks. But I guess it was a law back when these bikes were built.

Here's a partial edit I made after taking out the hi-lighted wires. Note that I added in the alternate positions of the switch wipers, both ignition and lighting, (but left off the ignition emergency position, which cannot be used with EI anyway). Notice the light switch alternate position labels at the bottom of the diagram. The one on the left says, "Pilot, Tail, and Gage Lights ON":

[Linked Image]

That bit about having the gage lights come on when the lighting switch is in the pilot and tail light position makes no sense to me. If there is enough daylight that you don't need the headlight on, there is no reason to waste precious amperage from the less-than-robust charging system, no matter how slight, by lighting up the speedo and tach in broad daylight. That would be changed in the diagram below.

Here's another work in process version of the diagram.

DISCLAIMER -- REFERENCE ONLY -- I'M NOT DONE HERE YET!

Also, before anyone yells SPG, it will be, I just didn't mess up the diagram by drawing it that way. Actually, as Stuart has pointed out several times in the past, the Lucas harness came with red ground wires for nearly everything, even in 1964:

[Linked Image]

Stuff I'm still thinking about that is not shown here:
  • I still intend to use relays for the hi/lo beams on the headlight, and for the horn.
  • I want to add a volt-meter or at least a battery condition light.
  • I may leave the ammeter in place for decoration, but not actually wire through it. The one I have is a re-pop and I don't trust it much. I do still have the original Lucas gage, but it looks pretty nasty.
  • I'm still shopping for a fuse block I like. I've looked at dozens but have found something I don't like about them all. The fuse shown in the +ve leg will be the "main" fuse, rated at 15A. The others will all have lesser ratings, sized as needed for the various branch circuits. (Not shown on here yet.)
  • I'm thinking about a real, key-type ignition switch, though I'd like to leave the original switch in place.
  • With the horn operated by a relay, the horn relay should only be operable when the ignition switch is ON. A fused wire that actually supplies the power (switched by the horn relay) to the horn could bypass the ammeter if necessary. (Not yet shown that way here.)
  • The brake light should only be operable when the ignition switch is ON. (Not yet shown that way here.)
  • There should be a grounding kill button on the black/yellow wire for the Boyer system (Not yet shown that way here.)
  • Probably a few other things I can't think of right now.


The reason for all the various fuses: I once had a 2000 Harley Davidson Ultra Classic. I kept it 10 years and put 60,000 miles on it, but it is absolutely the last new Harley I will ever purchase. I had more trouble with it over those ten years than any other single vehicle of any kind that I have ever owned. One niggling problem (compared to all the others) was the little light in the tip of the front fender.

It was on a circuit with the headlight, protected by a 10A fuse. That fuse would blow frequently and put out the headlight. The bike was under warranty and the dealer could find no faults in the circuit. Eventually, we unhooked the fender tip light while replacing the front tire (it was not easy to get to the connection with the tire in place) and the fuse never blew. That is, never until the next tire change when the helpful tech noticed the light was unplugged and reconnected it. When the headlight fuse blew again, I told the service manager I wanted it fixed properly. He said that he had started putting in a 15A fuse and had no problems. The fuse was "on the edge" with its rating. Though I was leery of this, we did it and there was never a problem again.

Point is, that stupid, unnecessary, marker light repeatedly took out my headlight. Not fun at night, at speed, though I had flood lights I could run with fairly well. I think the headlight needs its own fuse. Likewise, it would be bad for a short to take out a gage light fuse and kill the tail light at night.

My 2c on fuses.

As the Brits say, Cheers!

Ray
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Some electrical stuff - 05/08/13 5:42 pm

Originally Posted by TR6Ray
By the way, you may have read on BritBike that Lucas never soldered their harness connectors. I am here to tell you that, yes -- they did. My harness is original to my 1964 TR6. It has Lucas tags fluttering from the rotted loom weave. There is not a single bullet that was crimped. They were all soldered. Also, while the spade connectors were nicely crimped, there is also a tiny bit of solder on each one. The female spade terminals appear to me as if the copper wire was pushed against the blade and spot welded in place. I'll add some pictures as I clean up the old harness.

The harness isn't cleaned up, but here are the pictures I mentioned earlier of the original Lucas connections:

This is typical of the male spade terminals and the eyelet terminals. They are crimped onto the insulation and to the wire, then soldered:

[[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

The female spade terminals are crimped to the insulation, then the wire is spot welded to the terminal:

[Linked Image]

All the bullets are soldered like these. Here you can see no crimp marks, and there is a dab of solder out the end of the bullet:

[Linked Image]
Posted By: TR6Ray

Even More electrical stuff - 05/18/13 9:36 pm

Still no work done on the electrics, but some more thinkin' about it. I was going to use a Hella 8 position fuse holder (wired from the sides), and mount it on the front of the battery box. Turns out it is too big from back to front and would foul the frame center post. I got a 5 position holder instead, from O'Reilly Auto. This one wires from the back, which will be the bottom in this case, and will be mounted with the lid facing upward:

[Linked Image]

I'll make a couple little brackets and hang it from the battery box front crossbar. Wires will hook on from below. The wires can then be tie wrapped to the frame center post to help prevent the spade connectors from coming apart.

Putting the fuse block in front of the battery box means the Pod needs to go elsewhere, so I'll hang it from the bottom of the battery box as many have done.

I decided I needed a wiring diagram that would document the changes I am about to make to the electrical system. This will help keep me straight as I make the changes, and be a reference later on -- either for me, or for someone else if I ever sell the bike. My problem with plain old schematic diagrams is that two points shown in electrical continuity may be spread way apart on the bike, and the schematic doesn't necessarily show the wire routing or the intervening connectors. I tried to make up a diagram that is slightly more related to how the electrical system is spread out on the frame, sort of a pictogram if you will. I made it in four pages, each 8 1/2" x 11".

Page #1 only shows the tail lamp / stop lamp and the related little harnesses for them. The stop lamp will be controlled by a relay, which is only active when the ignition is on. This same relay will supply the horn as well. Hence the stop lamp and horn will both be dead when the key is off.

Here's Page #1:

[Linked Image]

Page 2 has more of the guts of the system, including the battery, alternator, Podtronic R/R, fuse block connections, etc. This is also the start of the main harness, which will run on forward into the headlight. So, where the harness goes off the right edge of page #2, it comes in on the left edge of page #3. Fuse ratings shown here are only a WAG. I'll need to figure out later what is appropriate, but all are of lesser rating than the main fuse between the +ve battery post and the ground stud. Also, the ignition and light switches are the original ones from this bike. I am only showing the pin connections I will be using. They are shown on this page because they are mounted on the left side cover.

Here's page 2:

[Linked Image]

Page #3 shows the ignition system connections and the horn.

[Linked Image]

Page #4 shows the stuff up front. I cheated and left some of the wires off the picture, but covered them in notes on the page.

[Linked Image]

So, not elegant, but I think I can work from it. Next step is to finish dissecting the harness, clean all the terminals, and make up whatever new connections are needed. I have already carefully cut off what was left of the cloth loom, and taken pictures of everything. I also have a written record of where every bit of wire (of each color) went on the original system.

I found that the wires are removable from the ignition and lighting switch plugs. I'll be taking them all out of the plugs, cleaning them, and re-installing the ones I want to use.

I still need to order crimping pliers, some wire, and some connectors from British Wiring. I waited till I had my diagram sketched out so I can (hopefully) get all I need in one order.

Cheers,

Ray
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Even More electrical stuff - 05/19/13 8:00 am


Your a far smarter man than I, Ray. Well done!

Rod
Posted By: GrandPaul

Re: Even More electrical stuff - 05/19/13 1:57 pm

I can almost hear it running...
Posted By: TR6Ray

Battery box mods - 05/27/13 3:56 am

It seems that half the battle, so far, with electrical changes is figuring out where to hide the new stuff. My '64 battery box is very small. I maybe should make a new one to hold a bigger battery, but will try to make the original one work. A lot of people put their Podtronics Regulator/Rectifier on the bottom of the battery box. Because the '64 box is so small, I was going to put mine on the front instead. Then I decided to put a fuse box there, so it's back to the bottom with the reg/rect.

The smart way to attach the reg/rect is to drill a couple holes and file them square to accept carriage bolts. That leaves the carriage bolt heads sticking up and the battery has to sit on them. A rubber pad with two clearance holes cut out will take care of that. However, I'm not that smart, so I went to a little more trouble.

I had some 1/4-20 flat head, countersink machine screws around, so I used them. With two holes laid out and drilled through the bottom of the box, I dropped the bolts through and surrounded them on the bottom side with some big oversize flat washers. On top of those washers went a smaller washer and a nut. Then I tightened the heck out of the nuts till the countersink heads came flat with the inside of the battery box, like this:

[Linked Image]

Since the bottom of the battery box is double thickness plate, I could not quite form the countersink areas strictly by tightening the little bolts. A few taps of my trusty hammer on a drift finished the job. Of course, all this made some bulges sticking out the bottom, but I had a plan for that. While not absolutely needed, I've read it's a good idea to have some sort of heat sink for the regulator, especially since this one will be somewhat shielded from the air stream. So I cut one from some 3/16 aluminum. It wound up being 3" x 5", so about 15 square inches, before the corners were dubbed off a bit. I countersunk the holes in the heat sink plate for clearance like this:

[Linked Image]

The heat sink plate extends a little forward of the battery box, but doesn't look too bad. That area is hidden anyway. It gives the reg/rect a good place to bolt up. The heat sink plate and the reg/rect have to be staggered forward to clear the slope of the rear fender (mud guard) angling down directly behind them. In this picture, my hand is on the back of the battery box, where the fender will be. It is a very close fit but has just enough clearance:

[Linked Image]

Next, I formed up a little bracket out of some 22 gage steel to hold the small fuse block. It is bead blasted, but not yet painted black. The tab on the right hand side is to mount a relay for the horn and stop light circuit:

[Linked Image]

To fasten this stuff together, I'll use some stainless steel hardware, but I filed the markings off the heads and bead blasted them to look (somewhat) like cad plated hardware. The bolt to the left is what I started with. At least they won't rust, and I got some Nylok nuts to try to keep them together:

[Linked Image]

The fuse block and the relay will attach with their male spade connectors sticking down. Here's a view from the bottom side where the wires will attach:

[Linked Image]

Finally, here's a shot of the battery box assembly, with the fuse block and relay loosely attached to the bracket, and the bracket hung onto the battery box cross-bar:

[Linked Image]

There is just enough clearance for my fat fingers to squeeze the plastic lid on top of the fuse block to unsnap and remove it. The center post of the main frame comes up directly in front of the fuse block, which should be a good spot to tie-wrap some wires, leaving them with a bit of slack.

My wire, terminals, insulators and fancy ratcheting crimping pliers just came in from British Wiring. I'm anxious to start running some wire. There are two more relays to locate, but they will be going inside the headlight bucket. I think there is clearance to attach one each side to the mounting ear bolts. Triumph made those bolts a bit long -- perhaps thinking somebody might have a use for them someday?

Cheers,

Ray
Posted By: TR6Ray

Wired up - 06/30/13 5:45 am

Long time with no update, but I haven't been completely idle.

I mentioned before that I took the Lucas rotary type 88SA ignition switch apart and managed to get it back together okay. The wires that I removed from the connector plugs on the ignition and light switches were all dark greenish brown/black with copper oxide (I like the term "verdi gris" as Tridentman once called it). This is a highly sought-after look for copper roofs, but not for wire terminals. I did not want to damage these terminals, because I haven't seen them available for sale. I cleaned the old ones with some ZEP Aluminum Brightener, disobeying the rules and using it full strength, but I did wear latex gloves. I didn't leave it on very long, maybe 5 minutes max, and scrubbed the terminals inside and out with a pipe cleaner soaked in the stuff. I also cleaned the rest of the wire insulation with mineral spirits. This was all followed by a good water rinse. They cleaned up pretty well:

[Linked Image]

That little tang on the backside is what holds the connector inside the plug. There is a tiny access opening on each hole in the plug where you can poke in a small seal pick, depress the tang, and pull the wire out. After cleaning each one, I used a knife to gently lift the tang out a bit, making sure it would engage the plug when it went back together.

If you looked at my previous stuff about 1964 wiring, I mentioned that a lot of original wires were unnecessary and that I was going to remove them. I re-used what I could, re-purposing some of the wires and marking up my diagrams for color codes. Here's a bit of green/black with a new 1/4" spade connector and sleeve from British Wiring crimped onto one end:

[Linked Image]

I don't like bare wires clipped here and there, even when out of sight, but I despise that round, ribbed, semi-flexible plastic conduit. I used to work with a Cuban engineer who called that stuff "gator dick", which I thought was a good name for it. I looked around and found this stuff:

[Linked Image]

It is made by TechFlex, and I bought some through Grainger Industrial Supply. It is pretty good stuff and although it is woven plastic, it looks like loom weave. The good thing is that it works like those Chinese finger trap toys for kids. Push it together and it expands, let go and it returns to the original shape and size. The size I got is 1/2" I.D., but it could easily enclose a big Lucas bullet connector and snug itself down around the rest of the harness if I wanted it to. Here it is partially expanded.

[Linked Image]

I had a number of spots along the harness where I needed to have one or more wires break out of the loom. I could have done that with this wrap, but TechFlex also makes something called FlexWrap. I bought some of that in 1/2" nominal I.D., that would fit a range from 3/8" up to 3/4". I found this too bulky and exchanged it for some with 3/8" nominal I.D. This works pretty well, allowing breakout wires as well as the abililty to add/remove wires later. I found that this material has very good memory and returns to its original shape. It works like the gator dick stuff only it is easier to install, is more flexible, and just looks better.

[Linked Image]

Here's an example of a breakout wire. The gator dick conduit is pretty harsh, and you really need to protect where there is a breakout wire, at least make a little hole for it. There is no need with FlexWrap:

[Linked Image]

I also used some vinyl sleeving from British Wiring. They have it in a variety of sizes. I used 10 mm I.D. stuff for the front of the main harness where it goes from the coil area under the tank and on up to the headlight. This is where the original Lucas harness also had vinyl. The Lucas stuff was in remarkably good shape and had a little heavier wall thickness. I almost re-used it, but decided to go with the new. Here's the harness(es) up front, going into the headlight. Besides the main harness, there is also the dipper harness, a kill switch harness, and the gage lights harness with added ground wire.

[Linked Image]

Because the gage lamp harness would have had an exposed upper end, I wrapped that bit with TechFlex. I was worried that a vinyl tube would collect water and carry it into the headlight bucket. One advantage of the TechFlex wrap is that it will not hold or conduct moisture. The other bits here are run in 6 mm I.D. vinyl. (There is also a speedo and brake cable shown here.)

I finally put in the Boyer Bransden stator/rotor, which allowed me to close up the old points cavity in the timing cover. I cut off the BB bullets and replaced them with spade crimps from British Wiring. I also used a dab of silicone where the harness goes into the backside of the timing cover. The unit is static timed, to be strobed if the old lump ever runs again.

[Linked Image]

I used new wires and vinyl sleeving for the BB stator leads, but with a nod to political correctness, I re-used the old aluminum tie wraps on the front frame tube. At the bottom, the tie wrap encompasses both the harness and the speedo, as per factory (or at least the way I found it):

[Linked Image]

Up top, by the petrol tank mount, only the harness is under the tie-wrap. The speedo cable is clipped to the steering dampener. Again, as per factory (or at least the way I found it):

[Linked Image]

I found it convenient for tie-wrapping purposes (I cheated and used modern plastic zip ties where they don't show) to bring the BB stator harness up and through the frame onto the drive side, alongside the main harness. Here's the DS wiring:

[Linked Image]

This also shows the new ground (earth) wires for the coil and engine (on the head steady) that were not there before. And the next picture shows the TS wiring. The plastic sheathed spade connectors are the stator leads connected to the BB control box leads. The Boyer white lead is encased in vinyl back to where it enters the FlexWrap of the main harness. This was one example of a breakout wire:

[Linked Image]

I mounted the horn up front, which is wrong for a 1964 650 twin, but it should be louder, and I needed the space back under the battery box for wires. Because it is in the wrong place, I mounted it flat so that it almost disappears when the tank is in place. I made up a little clip to keep the horn from vibrating around on its single mounting bolt, but that isn't in place yet. I haven't gotten around to painting it. The horn harness is lying there waiting -- another example of wires breaking out from the main harness.

[Linked Image]

All this leads back toward the battery area, where the new fuse block is mounted. Here's a shot of the fuse block. I left enough slack in the wires that I can unfasten the fuse block and lift it up about 4 inches for access. What looks like a big, fat, white wire on the top frame rail is actually the rocker box lube line. I re-used the old one. Like on my wiring diagram, there are 8 wires connected here (4 fused circuits). I have gone back and edited my wiring diagrams in an earlier post to show the rest of the color codes for the wires. I made a few other minor edits there as well. The center fuse position is empty -- storage for a spare fuse. There is also a separate 15A main fuse in a holder in the lead between the battery +ve terminal and the ground stud which I have added.

[Linked Image]

The harness and lube line are routed as they were when the bike came out of the barn, only they're a little different.

[Linked Image]

A few other things, where I neglected to take pictures:

  • The headlight is all connected up, using two automotive relays inside the bucket (one for High beam, one for Low). I simply nested them in with the other wires. I don't think they will have opportunity to rattle around much with all the crap I have in there. Still, it is spacious compared to, say, an old CB450 Honda.

  • I used a grounding type kill button, purchased from eBay. This is mounted on the RH handlebar, near the choke lever. Onto this button, I added a black/yellow wire, inside a vinyl sleeve, that runs down into the headlight bucket. There it connects via a Lucas 2-way bullet to another black/yellow lead that runs inside the main harness back to the BB control box. It is double crimped onto a spade terminal along with the lead from the BB control box. The stator lead connects to this with a female spade crimp.

  • Since the kill switch and the horn switch (part of the dipper assembly) rely on the handle bars for a return path, I added a red ground (earth) wire from one of the p-clamp bolts. It is on the bottom and out of sight. This goes into the headlight bucket and is one of 6 wires in a 6-way bullet connector. One lead from this connector extends back through the main harness to a ground stud near the battery -- the same place to which the battery +ve connects via the main fuse.

  • Even though I drew detailed plans and followed them (what an absolute necessity that was) I still didn't manage to order everything in one batch from British Wiring. In fact, order number FIVE should arrive Monday. All I'm short is one 4-way bullet connector, but I ordered some spares on the rest of the stuff. Unbelievable how disorganized I can be. Of course there is at least $10 shipping for each order! eek


Finally, I have to thank MotorEddy for posting the picture of his finished bike. He did an excellent job on it, and it is hard to quit looking at the picture -- a SWEET looking bike it is. However the main reason I need to thank him is that while staring at his bike picture, I had an epiphany!

While I was happy with the way most of my wiring job turned out, I was having difficulty tucking and tie-wrapping the wires under the fuse block to my satisfaction. I was considering fabbing up a cover to mount on the frame center post to hide them, but didn't think that would look right either. Then, looking at Eddy's TR6, I noticed a fundamental difference. I suddenly realized what would hide all those wires very nicely.

I simply need to PUT THE CARBURETOR AND AIR FILTER ON THERE! crazy shocked blush laughing

I've gotten so used to looking at my bike with a paper towel stuffed into the inlet manifold that I guess I thought it was normal that way. I forgot what it looks like with the carb and filter in place! DUH! That's the next step. Thanks, Eddy, and congratulations on your nice work. I hope you enjoy that TR6 to the fullest.
Posted By: T140V-Rich

Re: Wired up - 06/30/13 1:27 pm

As always Ray, just blown away by your attention to the smallest of details. And, I believe I could use some Techflex on mine in certain areas for extra protection, such as the entry hole for the harness into the headlamp shell. Besides, it looks so doggone good! Great work.

Cheers

Richard
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Wired up - 07/05/13 9:21 pm

Thanks, Richard.

Well, the USPS came back from their holiday and brought the stuff from British Wiring that was supposed to be here 4 days ago. With that in hand, I finished the last couple connections and had a minor success!

I haven't bought a battery for the TR6 yet, but I made up some temporary leads to hook the bike up to a battery sitting on a table next to the bike (this battery is too big to go into the TR6 tray).

When I turn on the ignition switch, I can hear the horn/brake light relay click on as it should. Turn the light switch one click and I get pilot and tail lamp. Turn it another click and the pilot goes out, the tail lamp stays on, and the headlight and gage lights come on. The button on the dipper honks the horn as it should. Press the rear brake and the brake lamp comes on. Turn the igninition switch off, and it kills all circuits. So all as I intended, and good on the first try!

Well, almost. I'd be lying if I didn't mention that I reversed the leads for hi/lo beam, and for the ammeter. The dipper and ammeter work just fine, only backwards. A quick trip back into the headlight bucket will cure those two ills. I'm just tickled to see no smoke leaking out anywhere, and to have the bike lit up for the first time since 1971 (electrically anyhow).

Now the old girl still needs some cables (as in clutch, throttle, and choke). Then I gotta look at that Amal that I put into a coffee can several years ago. Then comes the real test.

Baby steps, baby steps.

Cheers, Ray

{Edit} Ammeter and dipper wires flipped, and they are working correctly now.
Posted By: kommando

Re: Wired up - 07/08/13 9:43 am

Its at that point when it tantalisingly close, I use the 7ah alarm gel batteries that are cheap and they seem to work well. According to the spec they should not work but using them in practise says they do and no spilt acid to spoil all the hard work you have put in. Only issue is they use spade connectors not rings.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Wired up - 07/19/13 2:22 pm

Originally Posted by kommando
Its at that point when it tantalisingly close, I use the 7ah alarm gel batteries that are cheap and they seem to work well. According to the spec they should not work but using them in practise says they do and no spilt acid to spoil all the hard work you have put in. Only issue is they use spade connectors not rings.

Thanks, kommando, and sorry I took so long to respond. I have read on other forums (fora?) about people using those batteries. One guy said that his workplace uses them in their UPS's (uninterruptable power supplies) for their computers. These get replaced on a yearly basis, and he can have as many to take home as he wants. He simply crimped female spade connectors on his motorcycle battery leads, and they work great. In my case, believe it or not, there is not room for one. I have looked at a very wide range of batteries that will fit my shelf and, all things considered, I believe I am going to try a MotoBatt MB5U, which should be a perfect fit. It only carries a 7AH rating, but we'll see how that works out. I'm glad to hear that your 7AH battery works well for you. I only plan on daytime use, running with the pilot on to satisfy the law. Two respected sources, Stuart and Redmoggy, have indicated that MotoBatt makes a good AGM battery.

Speaking of amperes, after I got my harness in place, I tried out my little Sperry Digital MM. It has a ring clamp that you can put around a single conductor and it will read out the DC amps flowing through said wire. It even shows direction of flow (+/-). I placed it around the main -ve battery lead and checked what I was getting with various loads. In the process, I found that it agreed closely with my el cheapo re-pop ammeter in the headlight. There's no surprisingly new information here, but just for reference, this is what I measured:

  • Turning on my ignition switch, with everything else shut off, there is one relay activated. It simply connects fused power to the horn and stop lamp circuit. This allows the horn and stop lamp to be shut off when the key is off. When first activated, the relay draws 2.95A for about one second. Then, with its armature pulled into place, it settles to .20A and stays there.
  • With the horn/stop lamp relay active, turning on the standard, incandescent pilot and tail lamp kicks the draw up to 1.06A. (1.06-.20=.86A for the pilot and tail lamp ).
  • Another click of the lighting switch, and the pilot goes out, the tail lamp stays on, and the gage lamps and low beam headlight come on. Of course the horn/stop lamp relay is still drawing .20A. The total now reads 5.15A.
  • Flipping to high beam is nearly the same, at 5.20A.
  • With everything turned off again, except for the horn/stop lamp rely, when I honk the horn the draw is 2.20A.
  • With just the horn/stop lamp relay active, stepping on the rear brake kicks the draw to 2.16A.
  • A combination of brake lamp on, horn honking, and the relay showed a reading of 4.08A.
  • Finally, with high beam, tail light, gage lamps, horn relay, brake lamp all turned on and the horn honking, I got a reading of 8.85A. Note that this is without the ignition system draw because the Boyer powers off without rotational signal.



My normally devoted shop assistant found all this honking to be beyond the pale, and elected to go elsewhere for a nap.

[Linked Image]

Aside from that, I deduced that I had used too small a wire for my -ve battery lead. The original harness had two leads (in a common crimp) emanating from the -ve battery post. One went to the horn and stop lamp (neither of which were supplied with power passing through the headlight ammeter). The other lead went to the headlight ammeter and then to the rest of the bike. I opted for only one lead on the battery, and that was a mistake. I took this single lead to a 4-way bullet connector and split it there with one lead to the horn/stop lamp circuit and the other to the ammeter. While it is more convenient to have only one lead at the battery post, I had effectively cut the ampacity of the wire in half. All this would be okay if I had used a larger conductor from the battery to the snap connector, but what I used was a piece of wire from the original harness. So . . . one more order to British Wiring to get some Brown/blue 28/.3 (rated for 17.5A) and replace that smaller lead.

Meanwhile, I've been reading and fretting over fuel lines and ferrules, control cables and ferrules, and not getting much accomplished. I do have a few leads going though.

Later.

Ray
Posted By: TR6Ray

Misc then into the AMAL - 07/30/13 2:32 am

Well, since last update, I replaced the -ve battery cable with heavier wire and called it good for the wiring (unless proven wrong later).

When I first started this project, in my naivety, I ordered five of the six cables I wanted to replace (speedo, tach, clutch, throttle, and front brake). I achieved a perfect score -- none of them were usable. I know now that Venhill, Flanders, and Motion Pro will make custom cables, and that is likely the way to go. But, I decided that I want to make my own. Flanders sells a solder pot for about US $200.00 and it may be great, but that seems a little steep. I made one for free with stuff I had around. I also sent off to Venhill for one of their bird caging tools. I will put up pictures when the birdcage tool arrives.

I spent some time studying Flanders' web site to see what cable parts I need to order. It seemed it would be better if I could see the stuff before I bought it, so I clicked their site to find a local dealer. Surprise! There is one, and it's a guy I was acquainted with. He's been set up as a dealer for Flanders for a long time. His Dad ran the local Ducati shop years ago. He told me they also sold Greeves, Matchless, Montessa, and a few other makes, "back in the day".

So I went to see him and we quickly made up the cables I need, except for soldering. I'll do that when the birdcage tool arrives. One cool thing was that he and his brother have been collecting race memorabilia for a long time. Hanging on the wall are the race leathers from four names you may recognize. In all cases, these were the leathers they wore when they were carrying the #1 as National champions. How about Steve Eklund, Kenny Roberts, Jay Springsteen, and (my favorite of all time) Ricky Graham? Sorry, didn't have my camera!

For fuel lines, I bought some clear stuff from Klempf's. The challenge now is finding the proper ferrules. Mitch had some, but I believe they are a bit large on their ID, and are short on their length. He warned me about the finish before I asked about them.

[Linked Image]

On the left is one of my old crimps cleaned up. I think it was originally cad plated brass. The plating is gone. I could re-use the old crimps but I'm looking for some that are at least zinc plated, or stainless steel. McMaster Carr and others have them in brass. I still have not found any the proper size. The new clear fuel line is 5/16" I.D. and thick walled, but maybe .020" smaller O.D. than the old lines.

I also have a crimper coming from British Cycle, but don't have it here yet. I want to verify the size range on it before I try to chase down the proper crimps.

I almost re-used my old connecting pipes with some black fuel line and the old crimps, but I want the clear stuff at least initially. Somehow it has that Brit look. More on that next time. As you can see below, the cad is gone off the copper elbows and the brass nuts, so I got some new from Klempf's.

I have my original Ewart petcocks and may fool with them later on. They are tapered brass on brass, complete with hard-as-glass O-rings (no cork involved here). I think they might work with some lapping and some fresh O-rings. For now, I bought a BAP set from Mitch. They are about 3/4" longer, but I think that will be okay on my single carb TR6. They also don't have the original look, but are reported to not leak (internally or externally), which I find important.

[Linked Image]

So, onward to the Amal. Here are some pre-teardown pictures, showing the original petcocks, crimps, and fuel line routing:

Timing side:

[Linked Image]

Drive side:

[Linked Image]

A long time ago, I stuck the carb in a coffee can and put it on a shelf. Now it's time to have a look at it. Hmmmm, I see I didn't clean it before I put it on the shelf:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

This is the first Amal carb I have ever touched, so I did some reading on it.

It's a 389/97 Monobloc. In cleaning it up, I found the model stamped on the top of the mounting flange. On the bottom of the flange, there is a 2/64 date stamp. Choke size = 1.125 (1 1/8).

Before I took it apart, I made note of the settings:

  • Throttle stop screw was 3 1/2 turns out from bottom
  • Air screw was 1 1/2 turns out from bottom
  • Needle clip was in second groove from the top (five grooves present).
  • Cutaway is 3 1/2
  • Pilot jet = 25
  • Main jet = 300
  • Needle jet = 106T

The float and needle valve are the original plastic / nylon, and appear to be in perfect condition. (I think I will replace with stay up float and viton tipped needle anyway.)

There was no safety wire on the three float bowl screws, and no holes for safety wire either. These screws will be replaced because the heads are rust pitted.

The mounting flange is dead flat, so no one over-tightened the mounting bolts which happens so often. Consequently the slide is free moving in the bore (after some cleaning, but no abrasives). Checking the slide and its bore with my friends mic and dial bore gage, the slide measures 1.4315 diameter. The bore is .0015 to .0020 bigger, when checking from front to back. Side to side in the bore, there is .0080 to .0100 clearance. I've read that .0035 clearance is desirable, but I plan to lube the slide lightly with white lithium grease and see how it works out. It goes up and down under its own weight, and doesn't feel like the movement is excessive. We'll see.

I ordered some pin gages to check the needle jet. They have not arrived yet, but my friend had a nice new #36 drill. Like Pete R has said on here before, this makes a good go/no-go gage for a 106 jet. The shank (.105"+)is a nice slip fit through the jet. The flutes (.1065") will not enter the jet. I'm calling it good. (I know -- I have read all the posts about not using old brass, but you can say, "I told you so" later!)

The needle mics at .0984, so .0001 undersize. I understand that the stainless steel needle itself rarely wears out. It is normally the softer brass jet that wears.

Here's what I have after some cleaning and polishing:

[Linked Image]

The little pile of bits at the lower right are the old gaskets and some corroded external parts for which I have ordered replacements. I also managed to mess up the air control spring, so that's in the replacement pile too.

So, a fairly simple carburetor, but one that often has users tearing their hair out. That part will come later.

Meanwhile, the PO (in this case, the original owner) came over to see what it looks like. I've kept in contact and showed him the paint parts and so forth, but this is the first time he has seen the bike since the day of the fake alligator tears back in 2009 when he sold me the old bike:

[Linked Image]

There were no tears on Sunday. He looked really happy, which made me feel pretty good as well. We had a good visit:

[Linked Image]

I'm still chasing some parts and tools, but the end is in sight. I know, first startup and tuning and other fettling will probably take me a long time too. I'm just itching to get this thing out into the sunlight.

Cheers, Ray
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Misc then into the AMAL - 07/30/13 9:10 am


I still think you have the patience of a saint, Ray! I know you will want to make your own, but check out Tri-Core website. They have clear fuel line sets already made and are a perfect fit.

Nice to have the date stamp on that carb, even better to find it's flat. I bent mine before i knew better!

All the best
Rod
Posted By: Dave M

Re: Misc then into the AMAL - 07/30/13 1:01 pm

Great work Ray, beautiful! beerchug
Posted By: kommando

Re: Misc then into the AMAL - 07/30/13 5:02 pm

The BAP taps do not leak and I use them on all my bikes since they came available in the 80's but there do look to be good UK made full brass taps available which I will be trying on my T120R.

Just one seller among many.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/140845088964?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Misc then into the AMAL - 07/31/13 3:28 pm

Originally Posted by Redmoggy
I know you will want to make your own, but check out Tri-Core website. They have clear fuel line sets already made and are a perfect fit.


Hey Rod, if I had realized that, I probably would have gone that route. In reading here and on the Rat, it seemed people were searching out the component pieces instead of the assembly. It's good to hear that you have used them and they fit. Not knowing that, I would be leery of ordering anything pre-assembled -- especially from across the pond. If my crimper ever arrives, I have found a source for the proper sized crimp fittings. That should let me renew the lines as often as necessary and make them the length I want them to be. Still, for anybody else doing this, the assembly ready-made from Tricor would be the way to go Tricor fuel line for TR6. I'm not impressed with their individual crimps though.

Dave: Thanks for the comment. I'm enjoying watching your build.

Kommando: It's good to hear that your BAP taps are working well for you. I'm not wild about the way they look, but I have had a petcock on another bike go bad after only a month in service (the ethanol ate the rubber inside). I discovered it by a trail of gasoline trickling across the garage floor. That one got replaced by a Pingel for big money, as it was the only thing available to fit. I'd prefer not to burn the house down, so if the BAP taps don't leak, I'll learn to like the way they look.
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: Misc then into the AMAL - 07/31/13 7:41 pm

Dave, Im using 40+ year old Ewarts taps off an A10 with NOS corks fitted. One side drips a bit, the other side is completely dry when closed. Never had an issue when the fuel lines are connected.

I too am not impressed with the BAP taps, they work well, but look too modern for me. I have also had some of those 1970 styled taps which look a little better but end up sticking - possibly the rubber deteriorating???
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Misc then into the AMAL - 08/22/13 5:58 am

Well, 3 whole weeks have gone by since the last update, and I'm still fooling around with miscellaneous stuff. I'm also still buying tools at this late date, when I thought I had all I'd need to finish this up. Like this, for instance:

[Linked Image]

That is the 1/4-19 BSPP (British Standard Parallel Pipe) tap to clean out the threads in my petrol tap ports (aka threaded holes for the fuel petcocks). I knew long ago that the paint guy didn't protect the threads and they were covered with paint, but I "put it away to deal with later" and sort of forgot. McMaster Carr came to the rescue. I greased the tap up heavily to catch the paint scrapings. It worked well, but I wonder if I'll ever use it again??

Here's what those BAP taps look like, along with some new pipes and nuts loosely stuck on.

[Linked Image]

They may not look original, but I like the way they can be positioned with the jam nut. Beyond cleaning the threads, I used my Dremel with a small wire brush to clear the paint where the dowty washer seals to the tank. Note that there is a flat washer between the dowty washer and the nut, to prevent damage to the seal. I put the reserve tap (with no stand-pipe) on the Drive Side of the tank. Out of all the bikes I've had in my whole life, this is the first one with two petcocks on it! Also the first one where the reserve and main were not incorporated into one unit. Obviously, it's my first British made bike!

I used a smear of this stuff on the dowty washers (Stat-o-seal washers in Triumph lingo).

[Linked Image]

I don't think it's necessary, but from reading on here, several people said the seals needed a bit of help.

I also got a nice fuel line crimper from British Cycle Supply. Here it is closed up and snugged.

[Linked Image]

And here it is with the leaf plate flipped open:
[Linked Image]

You can see from the top picture that it closes past where it forms a round circle. It fits the original crimps very well. Also, the cutout scallop shown in the lower picture should let me crimp both fittings on the banjo, where they are very close together. I would reuse the original crimps, except they have no cad plating left on the brass. I have spent an amazing amount of time looking for proper crimps. Lots of people have them in not-quite-the-right-size, or they want way too much money, or they are unplated brass or . . . whatever. As an example, McMaster-Carr has brass crimps that would work and are only US $8.40 for a package of 25 pieces. Other people want 3, 4, or 5 bucks each.

I realize that all this is stupid, but it is now the principle of the thing. I've never had a bike with the big, fat, clear fuel lines and I want to make my own. I know that the clear line has a relatively short life and will need to be replaced, so I want to be able to do so. I have some crimps coming from Morrie's Place that I hope will be right.

One curiosity to mention in passing is on my 389 Monobloc. I have read on here and in a couple of blogs that the original Monoblocs never used a gasket washer under the needle seating. When Burlen took over, they machined the needle seating thinner and added this seal. Then by using thicker or thinner gaskets, you can change the fuel level in the bowl. A number of people have evidently run afoul of this situation. When they get a gasket kit to clean/rebuild their old carburetor, the gasket is included. They use it and it raises the needle seating. This also raises the fuel level in their float chamber, and suddenly the engine is running too rich.

Armed with this info, I put mine together with no gasket. But, wait -- I carefully saved all my old bits, and matched them against the new. When I was done, I had one old gasket and a matching new one left over. Looking at my teardown pictures, I see that my carburetor did indeed have that seal in place. Since the bike went into storage in 1971, long before Burlen took over, there must be some exceptions to the rule. I believe that my carb (stamped 2/64) is original and untouched. Here's the gasket I'm talking about, at the left hand edge of the next picture:

[Linked Image]

In any case, along with the crimps, Ed is sending me a used lower cap so that I can drill and tap it and hook up a bit of clear tubing to check my fuel level in the bowl.

Perhaps the biggest PITA that still remains is the control cables. I sprung for one of those bird caging tools from Venhill. It showed up in a nice little draw-string bag:

[Linked Image]

Here's a closer shot of the ends of the punches, and the cable gripping grooves. Note the different depths of the counterbores for the different wire sizes.

[Linked Image]

This thing is nicely made and works very well. I cannot see how a bird-caged and soldered control wire could ever pull through an end nipple. Problem is, I already had my cable wires cut, and didn't allow enough length for the bird cage on each end. The first one I made was my clutch cable, and I thought it was too short to assemble. I walked away from it for several days, then went back and managed to put it together. It works very well.

Not so with the choke cable. It is just a smidge too short. So . . . today I spent a good part of the day picking out what I need from Flanders to have a bulk supply of parts on hand. Here I go again.

My free, made-from-junk-I-had-around-the-place, solder pot works okay though (at least version #3 does). It is a black iron pipe cap, clamped inside a metal conduit clamp, to which a bit of flat steel is attached. Here it is heating up:

[Linked Image]

It took a few practice tries to get this right, but I think I'm onto it now. I used some flux that I've had for a long time. I got it from a tinner friend who often had to work on old copper roofs and gutters. He said this stuff was the only thing that would get it clean enough to solder. I'm scared to ask what's in it, but it works really well. The solder is just some plumber's silver solder.

Why version #3 on the solder pot? The first one was made from a brass pipe cap. I found out that brass (an alloy of copper and tin and other miscellaneous metals) melts and lets a gob of molten solder drop like bird doo onto the work bench. Missed a serious burn on my arm by just a couple inches! Don't use brass. Ditto for version #2, made from copper. Don't use copper!

Next update should be the start-up tale. That will mean either tears of despair or tears of joy. We'll see. I've been at this waaay too long, and I have Jap bikes waiting for attention. I'm also still thinking about that old airhead Beemer. On the other hand, if this old Triumph works and I like it well enough, I might just forget about the rest.

Cheers.

Ray
Posted By: TR6Ray

First sunlight in 4 years - 09/05/13 1:41 pm

No startup attempt yet, but I did roll her up from the basement shop this morning. It's her first time in the sunlight since 2009. Here are a few pictures:

I stayed with a similar color motif on the battery, but went to 12V. I hope the new Motobatt is in better condition than what I pulled out of there. The 6V jobbie on the left last saw duty in 1971. It had seen a few freeze/thaw cycles and the case was split wide open. You know where all that acid went, don't you? The Motobatt is AGM:

[Linked Image]

Here's the Motobatt MB5U installed:

[Linked Image]

Also decided to make her legal for the road. That meant a license plate and sticker, and at least one rear view mirror. I got a couple of BritBike stickers from Morgan and found room for one under the plate. Without BritBike forum, I would never have made it this far. Besides, Morgan says that adding one of his stickers doubles the bike's value. Blanking out those middle numbers makes me look like somebody important:

[Linked Image]

I don't usually name my bikes, though I did once have a Harley that I called Black Bertha. Last night as I was finishing up some things on the TR6, I heard John Lennon singing his song tribute to his mother,



I've probably played a double Beatle anthology about 300 times while working on my old bike (and it's only one out of a big stack of CD's -- I've been at this a long time). I like this song and Julia is a nice name for a female Brit. So, that's her name now.

If you've been reading all this stuff I wrote, you know that Lennon's line, "Half of what I say is meaningless, but I say it just to reach you Julia" certainly applies to me.

Also, he mentioned his name for Yoko, whom he called "Ocean Child" in the song. Again, this old bike sailed across the ocean as a mere child many years ago.

Julia it is! I just hope she doesn't meet the same fate as the original Julia. She was killed when a drunk, off-duty policeman ran over her. But that was in England, and stuff like that never happens here. whistle

Here's Julia coming out into the sunshine:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Of course, Julia had to be introduced to one of her roommates. I thought there would be trouble for a while, but they had a friendly chat, Dunlop to Avon, so to speak. They are fairly close in color, but the others are all different.

[Linked Image]

I'll be doing something to downsize that mirror, but right now it makes me legal. I think just cutting down the stalk and re-threading it will help a lot.

If I had to say what was the most irritating, fiddly, frustrating part of this project, would anyone be surprised if I mentioned control cables? Anyhow, yesterday I made up new choke and throttle cables that work well. That let me put the Amal back together, add the fuel lines that I obsessed over, and stick the tank back on. The infamous Amal slide makes a nice click when it hits the stop from whatever position I release the twist grip, so that's reassuring.

I mentioned once that brass is a bad idea for making a solder pot for your cables. Yesterday, I found out that copper is not a good idea either. Version #3 is a black iron pipe cap. So far, so good!

First kick is tentatively scheduled for this Saturday. I have some friends who want to be here to watch it explode, err, start up, and that is when everybody can show up.

So I sing a song of love for Juuuullllliiiiiaaaa. If you think I'm nuts, just read about that Kent Shaun and his Uncle Albert!

Cheers!

Ray
Posted By: HawaiianTiger

Re: First sunlight in 4 years - 09/05/13 2:18 pm

Ray,
This one of the nicest, most original and competently restored bikes I've seen in a long time.
You won't have a bit of trouble snagging a few trophies if you're inclined that way.
I once restored one of these. It was a historically important bike. A gift from ET himself. Unfortunately, I never took any pictures.
Cheers,
Bill
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: First sunlight in 4 years - 09/05/13 2:22 pm


Absolutelly stunning. Do you have favourite beer i can raise to you and Julia?

Well done
Rod
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: First sunlight in 4 years - 09/05/13 3:49 pm

H.T. and Rod, Thank you! That means a lot coming from you gents. I just hope it's not premature, but I won't borrow trouble yet. I appreciate all the help and advice from both of you and from all the others. What a great resource this forum has been!

Rod, a Guinnes would be good. Enjoy it and I just wish I could be in NZ to hoist one with you.

Ray

Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: First sunlight in 4 years - 09/05/13 5:19 pm

Great work Ray, it looks totally different in true light yet still as beautiful.

I can't wait to hear a video of the start up.

Well done. This is one of the many projects on here that helps me to better my own.

Ps. There is nothing wrong with naming a bike, my BSA is called Bonnie and with no refrence to triumphs or LSR either but again after listening to a song, the name just fits.
Posted By: shel

Re: First sunlight in 4 years - 09/05/13 5:32 pm

Beautiful bike, Ray, Ya done good and with your attention to detail I have no doubt she'll start right up.
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: First sunlight in 4 years - 09/06/13 5:16 am

No sooner said than done Ray



And, now you are so far along. The reason why one carb is really better than two!



I guess i'll need to buy another half dozen when she fires up!

Cheers
Rod
Posted By: GrandPaul

Re: First sunlight in 4 years - 09/06/13 9:12 am

Picture perfect.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: First sunlight in 4 years - 09/06/13 10:10 am

Originally Posted By: TR6Ray
It's her first time in the sunlight since 2009.
What you have written is very disturbing, indeed. Everyone who restores a bike to a high standard, like you have done, seems to take 3-4 years. Now that I've assembled all the parts for my Spitfire, does this mean I should plan for the actual restoration to take longer than the four weeks I've allotted for it?...
Posted By: kommando

Re: First sunlight in 4 years - 09/06/13 1:18 pm

My last restoration took 5 years but most of the time was collecting parts, started with a frame and a set of matching cases. If everything was bought, restored and test fitted in advance you could assemble in 2 days or even less.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: First sunlight in 4 years - 09/06/13 3:06 pm

Originally Posted By: kommando
If everything was bought, restored and test fitted in advance you could assemble in 2 days or even less.
That's a huge "if." It sweeps several years of work under the rug.
Posted By: Jon W. Whitley

Re: First sunlight in 4 years - 09/06/13 6:19 pm

Rod,

That pint of brew you have attached to your engine isn't original to your bike and isn't a factory part either...just wanted you to know laughing



But is sure looks good...and the bike too beerchug



Originally Posted By: Redmoggy








Cheers
Rod
Posted By: Lannis

Re: First sunlight in 4 years - 09/07/13 12:31 am

Really a beautiful bike ... Let's see it after it has a little road dirt on it!!

You really have a lot of stick-to-it-tiveness .... !

Lannis
Posted By: TR6Ray

Julia lives and breathes again! - 09/07/13 4:23 pm

To you BritBikers who posted up here yesterday and today, especially my friend Rod (with that awesome picture of the Guinness draught on top of his TR6 gearbox) I apologize for taking so long to reply. You won't believe what happened here.

{Edit from 8/11/2017 -- If you are reading the text in this thread, you may wonder about the Guinness picture that several people mentioned in the posts immediately above. The picture recently fell victim to the destruction caused by the CEO of Photobucket. He decimated internet forums everywhere by killing millions of links that people had laboriously posted over the past ten to fifteen years. It may have been his legal right to do that, but it was a totally immoral and cavalier action. Along with Rod's picture, every single picture in this entire build thread disappeared overnight. For various reasons of my own, I decided to rework the pictures, using Zenfolio and eliminating all links from Photobucket. In the process, I just happened to have a low-resolution backup of Rod's picture and included it here.}


This picture came from Rod (R Moulding, formerly Redmoggy) from the big island in New Zealand, who gave help and encouragement throughout this build. He found a good use for the "shelf" on his beautiful 1966 TR6 -- a bike that sees action every day!

[Linked Image]

Thursday night a guy whose truck I used to drive called and needed help on Friday. "Ray, feel like coming out of retirement for a day?" he said. "I'm in a bind and could use some help."

As you all know by now, I'm not very smart, so I said yes. So, it was like old times, but an easy day. 300 miles give or take in the old semi, then home to deal with Julia. She still needed gearbox oil, transmission oil (primary oil to Americans), the air filter needed tightening, and some petrol (gasoline for Americans) would be good too. Did all that last night. Man, I was tired, and slept well last night. (First day's work in well over a year.) Hence my delay in posting.

This morning, there was no putting it off any longer. Several friends showed up and it was time to try 'er out. I pulled in the clutch and kicked once to be sure the plates were free (they were). I tickled my Amal (and I've been waiting a long time to say that). Then a couple kicks with the key off. Then about three with the key on, and she just started to run -- for the first time in 43 years!

I know I was supposed to check for return oil flow, and whether the little oil pressure plunger was poking its nose out, but I admit that I got excited and dropped her into gear. Up and down the road we went. Stupid people are sometimes lucky. She did not nip up on me, so I guess I was getting oil pressure and the piston clearance etc. was okay. The guys who were watching said that there was no smoke out of the pipes from the get-go. (Thanks, John Healy, for your mostly-dry-assembly, and wash-the-bores-with-soapy-water routine. You are one of my main BritBike heroes!)

I read on here that I should keep the revs above 2K (thanks for all your help, Pete R., may you rest in peace) and that it was best to take her up a hill while giving her the gun and then backing out of the throttle. So, that's what I did.

I live on a fairly long residential street, with a 25 mph speed limit, but I admit to hitting a watchful 60 a couple times. She didn't want to idle, but kept going if I played with the twist grip. I brought her home and tweaked the slide stop screw, and she settled in to a nice even idle of about 850 rpm. We hooked up the strobe and set the timing, then I was off again. So the first few miles are in the bag. It took about 8 tries to get the timing set, but every re-start was on one kick only -- every time!

Having read about how they dance around when you take the engine up to 5K, I had a carpet pad under the center stand. I did not do anything to the crankshaft balance factor on this build. It is where it was when Meriden made it. I was surprised at the lack of vibration. I've heard these bikes called "British jackhammers". So far, I ain't seen it. Lucky? Something wrong? Oh well, we'll see.

What I can say is that the engine sounds sweet and throaty, the silencers are not too silent, and not too loud -- perfect, actually. The throttle response is crisp and immediate. The feeling is out of this world. I could not be more ecstatic at this moment.

Rod, here's back at you.

[Linked Image]

I have thought many times how thoughtful it was for Triumph to design a ready-made shelf above the gearbox where I could set parts and tools, etc. while working on the bike. It took our friend Redmoggy to show me what that shelf is really for. Good show, Rod, and thank you for all the help along the way. You helped me more than you could possibly know!

Anyway, I figure the parcel carrier could also be put to good use.

Cheers to you all, and the Guinness is gone already!

Ray

p.s.: There was a little dribble of oil. It came from the non-1964 inspection cover on the primary chaincase. (I got a very nice 1968 cover from BritBiker Choppadude). It was not the fault of the cover, but the thin gasket that I used. After I parked her to let her cool off, I quickly made a new gasket from some thicker sheet, added a little Three-Bond to be sure, and Julia's nose quit dripping. So far, she's not even trying to mark her territory. I am smart enough to know that that will probably change.

Also, I should mention that the ancient Lucas non-potted alternator is charging, at least for now. All electricals worked properly from the get-go, so at least there is a fighting chance that they will continue for a while. I am running the original 1964 Lucas coils, by the way. The Boyer MK-IV is evidently feeling at home, and so is the Podtronics rect/reg.
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Julia lives and breathes again! - 09/07/13 4:49 pm


Congratulations Ray, what a brilliant day that must have been. It's not even 9am yet here, but once the sun is over the yard arm, i will drag the TR6 out for a squirt round the hills and a beer. Be sure and let us know as soon as you get them foot peg rubbers mated to the road surface!

Absolutely extatic for you, Mate
All the best
Rod
Posted By: Dave M

Re: Julia lives and breathes again! - 09/07/13 6:24 pm

Beautiful thing Ray! A toast to you! beerchug dave
Posted By: Jon W. Whitley

Re: Julia lives and breathes again! - 09/07/13 8:28 pm

Cheers to you Ray beerchug


That is a very beautiful bike you have and the sound must be amazing...as well as the ride !!
Posted By: Lannis

Re: Julia lives and breathes again! - 09/07/13 9:20 pm

Sounds like great fun. I love it when a loooong plan and effort finally comes together!

Lannis
Posted By: HawaiianTiger

Re: Julia lives and breathes again! - 09/07/13 9:38 pm

Get ready to ride, because it's nearly impossible to stay off a good running Triumph.

You did it. Enjoy the moment.

Cheers,
Bill
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Julia lives and breathes again! - 09/08/13 1:08 am

Sorry Ray, I don't mean to crash your thread. Took the old Tart for a blast in honor of Julia's re birth. Just a 60mile squirt and stop for a beer. Was a beautiful ride in the sun and the old girl was going so well. So well in fact that I was pulling almost 80 when I noticed the old bill on the side of the 60 mph road. Guess we will find out if the camera can read a painted number plate!

I raised a glass of Speights old dark and eagerly await more tales of Julia.

Rod
Posted By: kommando

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/08/13 5:20 am

beerchug
Posted By: Swan

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/08/13 2:00 pm

Ray, congratulations on a job well done and an absolutely beautifully restored bike!

I just re-read your entire build thread and you did an amazing job on both the restoration and the documentation. You took the time to do everything right, with the right tools, techniques and parts. You efforts will make it so much easier for the next person.

The feeling of starting then riding a restored bike is worth far more than all the hours and money your poured in to it. Enjoy!
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 09/08/13 9:20 pm

I am awed by all these nice comments from you guys whom I admire so much. Thank you, and thanks again for the help along the way.

The saying is that the work will expand to fill whatever time is allotted to it. I sure allotted plenty of time to this old TR6R, starting and stopping several times along the way. The good thing is that, if it's a hobby, you can do that. I started with a rough, but very complete project bike. In the time it took me to refurbish it, I watched several projects (some were absolute basket cases) that started with much less than I did, and were finished beautifully in what seemed like a short time. Meanwhile, I kept plodding along. I would estimate that I spent more time reading and studying this forum, and various books, than I spent actually wrenching. That's all part of the enjoyment.

I won't say the bike is done yet, I know it is just entering the fettling stage. But it is very reassuring to finally be working on a running machine. With BritBike help, maybe I can keep it that way. You guys are the best!

Rod, I sincerely hope you dodged that camera. Watching the use you get from your TR6 has been inspirational to me.

Ray
Posted By: TR6Ray

Completing the circle . . . - 09/21/13 11:15 pm

Indeed, after the first startup, some fettling was called for, but it could have been a lot worse. After first startup on a Saturday morning, I only ran about 25 miles that day and the next. This was around town. Then I had to park it for a week to do other stuff. In that first 25 miles, the chain started rubbing the skirt on the chain guard. I made a spacer for the lower bolt that was about .100" longer and cured that ill. The timing inspection plate was still weeping red ATF, but after sitting for a week, I fired her up and ran up another 75 miles. My idea was to give her a good going over at the 100 mile mark.

I pulled the tank off and, after some debate, removed the leak-free rocker box banjos, along with the head steadies and ignition coils. All this to re-torque the head bolts. I broke them all loose, one at a time and re-torqued to spec (15 lb.ft. for the 5/16 bolt, and 18 lb.ft. for the 3/8 bolts. I also did this for the cylinder base nuts (25 lb.ft.). It may have been an exercise in futility, since they all came back to their reference marks. The only change was in the four head bolts that pass through the rocker boxes. These rotated about 1/8" past their reference marks before the torque wrench beeped.

I reset the valve lash, all of which had tightened up a bit (perhaps .002"). I set to .004 intake, and .006 exhaust.

While the tank was off, I checked the steering stem bearings (tapered rollers) and found them to be just fine as they were.

Next, I reset the timing. A friend had helped me the first time, and I wanted to see the marks under the strobe light with my own eyes. I found that this is really easy to do by myself anyway. I found that the Boyer MK-IV came to 38° full advance at 3500 rpm, and a blip to 5000+ rpm showed no further advance. I do not plan to check this again -- set it and forget it, as they say. This meant I could put the original '64 primary case (transmission chain case) back on (it has no timing inspection plate).

I made up a gasket from some Fel-Pro sheet, and installed the chaincase, confident that this would stop the seeping ATF. When I poured the oil in the top, it came gushing out the bottom! Another look showed that I had let the gasket move and it was above the lowest bolt. The gasket was not damaged, so I re-installed it, this time using a smear of grease to stick it in place. After a run up and down the street, I tucked Julia in for the night with some white paper towels spread under the whole engine. Next morning, the towels were still pristinely white -- no leaks anywhere, and she spent the night leaned over on the side stand!

So, today, I took my first pillion rider (my 9 yr. old granddaughter) for a ride to warm up the oil, which she then helped me change. I told her what the word "pillion" meant, and told her that she was the first one on this old bike in 42 years. I thought that puffed her up a bit. Later I found out that she told Grandma, "I think Grandpa might be a little obsessed with this bike, but I understand."

All this done, I took off for a bit of a longer ride. I wanted to take the bike over to show her to the PO. I called him and warned him that we were headed his way. Thus the title of this post.

Here he was with the bike when I picked it up in 2009:

[Linked Image]

And here he was with the bike in the same spot today. The picture is from a slightly different angle, but it is the same spot. I took so long on this project that his trees got fatter in the meantime:

[Linked Image]

The PO's buddy who was there to help when I picked the bike up in 2009, was there again today, and excited to see the bike. Here's some old shots from when we were tying it down on the truck back then:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

The truck and the trailer are both long gone -- sold down the road. I had many good times with that old Peterbilt and Landoll trailer. I still see the truck pulling a grain trailer from time to time. But the two friends are still around and going stronger than ever. A great couple of guys. Here they were today:

[Linked Image]

While we were there, I ran Julia out back for a picture by the corn that is about to be harvested:

[Linked Image]

And finally, Julia took me back home in fine shape. So, today she slightly more than doubled her mileage (107 to 217). We had a great ride out through the countryside, except I rode home with the setting sun in my eyes.

Lannis said to show a picture after I got some road dust on her, so here she is after the first couple hundred miles. Not much dust, but thankfully -- no oil splatters! Those stains on the floor are old, she has totally changed her ways since I gave her back the old primary case she was born with.

[Linked Image]
My granddaughter is right -- I might be a little obsessed with this bike. I couldn't help thinking that the first time this old bike came home with me, she was on the back of a truck. Today, she made the round trip in fine shape, under her own power -- and what a grand ride!

I hope you all enjoyed the first day of Autumn as much as I did.

Ray
Posted By: TR6Ray

Looking inside an Emgo oil filter - 09/27/13 6:04 pm

Like many have done, as part of my project build, I plumbed the Norton style oil filter base into my return-to-tank oil line. On this base, I am using the little Emgo 10-07700 oil filter.

After the first 100 miles, I changed oil and filter. I cut open the used filter to see what might be in there, and thought that some pictures might be of interest to others.

The filter case is pretty stout, so it took some doing to get it open. A chain type pipe cutter would make quick work of it, but I didn't have one handy. I did not want to use a hack saw, because I didn't want to introduce any trash into the filter before I inspected it. With the case off, I used a knife to cut the pleated paper media. I then pulled it out of the frame and spread it out.

Here's an idea of how much paper is inside the filter. Obviously, this was all in one continuously pleated strip until I took it out in sections:

[Linked Image]

There were some visual bits of metal and dirt trapped in the media. Hopefully, there were smaller bits that I could not see. Good human eyes (mine aren't that great anymore) can see particles down to about 40 microns in size (1 micron=1 millionth of an inch). I don't know this filter's micron rating or its efficiency rating, but I doubt if it is trapping anything below about 25 microns, and only a certain percentage of the particles that size. I still think it is better than no filter at all.

Here are some closer shots showing the bigger pieces that I could see:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

With my pristinely clean work habits, and the quality of the Triumph engine, one can only suppose that these bits of debris were already inside the filter when I bought it, due to the manufacturing process. laughing

Here is a picture of the guts of the filter:

[Linked Image]

The thick black seal at the left is what seals the filter against the Norton style base. Once out of the housing, you can see that it is fairly substantial. This picture shows the top of the main internal cartridge. You can see the inner seal that seals the clean side of the filter to the filter base. The dirty oil enters the filter via the small holes around the periphery of the filter. These holes don't show here -- they are in the case that I threw away.

The smaller seal that keeps the filtered/unfiltered oil separate is held up against the inside top of the filter case via the large spring shown here in the foreground. Oil pressure would assist the spring in holding the internal cartridge up against the case. Pressure X Area = Force, and since there is a greater surface area exposed on the bottom than on the top, there is a force imbalance as well.

These filters are equipped with a bypass check valve, which you can see in the next picture:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Here, looking at the bottom of the internal cartridge, you can see the large spring (already mentioned) in it's normal spot, and the tip of my screwdriver is holding the check valve partially open. This is a necessary feature, because when the oil is cold, or the paper media becomes plugged with debris, the oil can upset the check valve and bypass the media. Cold, dirty oil is far preferable to no oil at all. It would also be bad if the return to tank line were blocked and led to a wet-sump condition.

So, for the price, not a bad looking little filter at all. It is much better than the one that came on the bike when new, which was called a sludge trap. That one is still in there working as well.

On another note, I have been reading a lot of posts lately about taking tools along on a ride. It is a nice idea, but my bike doesn't have a lot of space. I did manage to make up a little pouch that will fit the tiny toolbox under the seat:

[Linked Image]

My toolbox measures 3 1/4" wide, by 1 5/8" tall, by 5" deep. The pouch I put together is about 6 1/2" long when folded over, so the top is lightly pinched between the seat and the fender.

I don't have much in here. I had a number of things I thought it might be good to carry along, but kept taking stuff out till I could fit the pouch into the toolbox.

What I included:

  • 2 spark plugs, pre-gapped
  • A short handled plug wrench
  • A cheater pipe to extend the handle on the little plug wrench
  • Some wide tape wrapped multiple times around the cheater pipe to use for electrical or whatever
  • Baling wire
  • Insulated electrical wire
  • Diagonal cutters (it's not politically correct to call them "dykes" anymore
  • A small, cheap, Chinese-made, adjustable wrench
  • A tool to fit the various inspection covers. At least I can
    tighten them if they work loose (if I notice that they are loose before they fly off). Also, I could remove the gearbox and transmision plugs to add oil (if I could find any oil).


The pouch itself is a soft, flexible, vinyl document holder with a clear plastic pocket on the front. It is nicely edged with a bit of binder cloth, and is sized to fit an 8 1/2" by 11" piece of paper. I nested the tools inside, folded the top down once, then folded it the other way in sort of a tri-fold manner. It is a snug fit, and no tie-wrap or elastic band is needed. It isn't going anywhere so long as the seat is closed.

I got the pouch from a tire store this morning. I was in there to get a truck tire replaced (long, irritating story involved there). The technicians were carrying work orders around in these pouches to keep their dirty hands off their paperwork. I asked the guy at the desk if he could sell me one.

He said, "No, I don't even know what they cost. We get them from corporate. I would, however, be happy to give you a couple."

And he did. The tire cost me $167.73, so I guess it all came out okay for him in the end.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Idle thoughts after a superb Autumn day . . . - 10/01/13 10:47 pm

We had another perfect day in central Illinois today. I rode my most recently acquired vintage bike -- a cherry condition, 1989 Schwinn World Sport 10 spd to the restaurant for the weekly Tuesday morning breakfast with a group of Harley friends (the BMW Geezer Cruisers meet on Thursdays for lunch -- ain't retirement great?). When I got back home, my wife got out her matching Schwinn, bought off Craig's List as a set at the same time, from the same PO, and we went riding a bit more.

Once back home, I fired up Julia to go do some more run-in miles. We (that's Julia and I) stuck mostly to the back roads, hitting a couple small-town watering holes along the way. Corn harvest is going full tilt, and the soybeans are changing to their gorgeous Fall colors. (Too bad so much of this crop will be perverted to make ethanol). The prairie is in one of its best modes right now. I wish I had taken my camera today, because the color has changed quite a bit. Anyway, here's a shot from last week:

[Linked Image]

I'm still taking it fairly easy, typically staying under 3500 rpm (55 mph in top), but letting her out a little every so often. She effortlessly hit 75 mph a couple times today. On today's fill-up, mileage figured out to 49.9 mpg. After 105 miles, we were back home and parked. A buddy brought by a gift of the Beatles' White Album so that I could have the full version of the song Julia. Plus a lot of other songs that I only had on an anthology album. That music takes me back to the days of my '63 Impala Super Sport with the 8-track cassette tapes -- a car only a year older than Julia.

From the archives, when the world was younger and my hair wasn't white:

[Linked Image]

So, cold one open, music loud, me in my garage chair, Julia on the center stand, I sat for about an hour and just stared at my piece of British sculpture. Anyone who cannot appreciate the lines of a dry frame Triumph just isn't looking at it right. Each and every feature is something special. The term "wasp waisted woman" comes to mind. This applies whether looking down from above at the tank/seat juncture:

[Linked Image]

Or, at the narrowing of the cylinder block where it meets the crankcase:

[Linked Image]

Plus, there is a lot to be said for a bike which lets you look right through from one side to the other. This bike has a figure like that of a beautiful woman.

Even the feet on the center stand look sort of like a woman standing on tiptoe. I wonder if that was intentional?

[Linked Image]

What could be more sexy on a motorcycle than that 3.5 x 18 back wheel that exudes attitude? I could go on, but you get the idea. I find I have fallen pretty hard for this old bike.

Strangely, somewhere along about when I fastened the air filter onto the Monobloc, this pile of parts seemed to acquire a soul. I might have been the instrument that helped her freshen up, but I could almost hear her say, "Okay, step back now, I can take it from here!" With a few miles on the clock, I think that even the clutch and front brake cables have relaxed into more graceful lines than where I put them.

So far she has done a good job. I have been spared all the start-up woes that so many have suffered (knock on wood). She has clocked up 615 pretty much carefree miles so far. I will call 1000 miles full break-in. All the issues and snags from along the way seem to have faded into good memories. For example, Hawaiian Tiger told me to be sure and get the ends of my kickstarter and shifter shafts cad plated with the rest of the hardware. Tridentman recommended POR-15 brush paint for the jugs. Redmoggy told me how to index the gearbox on my first attempt. John H and Pete R told me how to set up the clutch. Looking at the bike today, I remember tips like that gratefully, but forget the effort needed to get it done. By the way, I am more than pleased by the way this 49 year old clutch and gearbox work -- easy lever effort and smooth shifting. With ATF in the chaincase, the clutch has yet to lock up.

Now, those oil filters I ordered a week and a half ago had better hurry up and get here. Good price ($3.18 each, plus shipping = 10 for $42.80) but tomorrow I will be on the phone. They are slow to arrive. I'll be more than upset if I have to quit riding just for this.

Ray (who might be a bit over the top with this post)
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Idle thoughts after a superb Autumn day . . . - 10/02/13 4:32 am


Well put, Ray. Nothing better than an evening spent motorcycle staring. Hope my little rant earlier in this thread now makes more sense.

Rod
Posted By: Gordon Gray

Re: Idle thoughts after a superb Autumn day . . . - 10/02/13 7:33 am

Gosh Ray....I had to go take a cold shower after reading that. smile

Beautiful bike.....love the car.

As already stated, well put. bigt

Gordon (aka Opie Gone Bad)
Posted By: TR6Ray

New brass makes a difference, and other thoughts: - 10/04/13 9:40 pm

Originally Posted by Redmoggy
Well put, Ray. Nothing better than an evening spent motorcycle staring. Hope my little rant earlier in this thread now makes more sense.

Rod

Hey Rod, I don't recall any rants from you, just a lot of help and encouragement along the way. As a simple Illinois farm boy, I think it is pretty cool to compare notes with somebody on the opposite side of the globe who has a similar bike. Especially since I know you understand about bike-gazing in the shop.

The internet is good for some things for sure!

Originally Posted by Gordon Gray
Gosh Ray....I had to go take a cold shower after reading that. smile

Beautiful bike.....love the car.

As already stated, well put. bigt

Gordon (aka Opie Gone Bad)

Thanks, Opie Gone Bad. I know that post was a bit much, but I was feeling the lust for my old bike when I wrote all that. As another BritBiker (and one who has had the illness much longer than I have) I know you understand.

__________________________________________

Well, so . . . another good day here in Illinois! Yesterday we got the rain everybody around here has been hoping and praying for. I should have been out in the garage working on Julia, but spent the whole day loafing. Retirement is the single best job I have ever had. I picked up the pace a bit today.

While I was goofing off, the female-mail-man brought this from Jolly Olde:

[Linked Image]

After previously ordering Amal parts through a stateside dealer and getting price shocked, I ordered directly from Burlen this time. I got this package one week after I placed the order, everything was correct, and the price was right. Shipping from England was only US $12.50. Not bad!

Ever since first startup, Julia has been running very rich. I didn't care too much, since I figure rich is better than lean to break in a new engine. Plus, I didn't want my newly chromed header pipes going blue right away.

Trouble was, at 100 miles, the plugs were black and sooty (dry soot -- no oil problem). I tweaked the pilot screw a bit, ordered some new brass, and kept riding.

I have to admit that I ignored some good carburetor advice that I had read from John Healy. You can see it HERE if interested.

With my bike's low mileage, I figured the brass jets were probably okay. I went so far as to measure the .106 needle jet with a #36 drill (I had some actual pin gages ordered but they hadn't come in yet). Close enough, I thought. But NO!

Today, I put in three new jets from Burlen. Before I installed the .106 needle jet, I measured it with my pins. The .1055" pin was a nice, snug, sliding fit. The .1065" pin would not start at all. By contrast, the .1065" pin would not only slide through my old jet, it had a tiny bit of wiggle room. I'm guessing the old jet was about .1075". John has said that this would cause rich condition across the whole operating range. It's anybody's guess what my existing pilot and main jets were putting out.

Anyway, I installed the jets, checked valve lash, put in some new Champion N3C's, gave the bike a once-over and thought to myself, "Will she start, or have I unintentionally screwed something up?"

No worries -- a tickle, some choke, one good kick, and she came to life. Down the street and back we went, to warm up and set the pilot. Just during the warm-up, I could tell a big difference! The bike sounded better, felt better, and ran better -- smoother, steadier, calmer!

It was time for another ride. I put on 132 miles today. After 80 miles, I pulled in for fuel. A quick check showed 62 mpg! That is up from 49.9 a couple days ago with the old jets.

Back home, I topped up again. Another mileage check showed 66.25 mpg! I don't think it's too lean, but will maybe have to do some plug checks. She is running excellent with no pinging (pinking for you Brits), and I have read of others getting mileage in this range. Also, I am using the same jet sizes that were in the bike when I got it, except new ones from Burlen. They agree with a service bulletin put out in 1964.

We're closing in on that 1000 mile mark:

[Linked Image]

That is a random number I chose to call the end of break-in. It strikes me that I probably won't ride this bike too much differently after break-in though. I'm enjoying getting away from traffic on a lot of county roads that I haven't seen for a while. The occasional high speed run would be good, but I won't flog this old bike too hard.

The speedo and tach are working great. I was a little worried that they sat too long after they were rebuilt by Scott Thomas, Smith's Magnetic Instrument Repair in Arlington Hts. Illinois. So far, so good. They both have nice and steady needles. He is a true craftsman and a fine guy to deal with.

Here's the speedo before he worked on it. The odometer used to spin randomly. I had him reset the mileage to zero so now it shows miles since rebuild

[Linked Image]

On another note, I mentioned last time that I had ordered oil filters at a bargain price. I won't mention names, but if you see Emgo filters for US $3.41, it is too good to be true. I went nine business days without even receiving a tracking number. I called and cancelled the order. After some BS from them, I called PayPal and opened a dispute. I got my refund today. Also, two days ago, I ordered 10 filters from Dennis Kirk (US $5.99 each, plus $8.00 shipping). UPS placed them into my hands this afternoon.

On top of all that, my latest copy of Vintage Bike showed up today. Life is good!
Posted By: ed_h

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 10/06/13 8:26 pm

Ray--

Let me add my congrats on your well thought out and well executed project! It's a beautiful machine and a tribute to your effort. She's got a great launch for her next 50 years.

Ed
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 10/06/13 9:00 pm

Thanks, Ed. I could say the same about your beautiful Daytona. Long may they both run, after waking up from such long naps!

Ray
Posted By: TR6Ray

Not broken -- just broken in . . . - 10/07/13 11:23 pm

There are lots of opinions on proper break-in procedure, but once this bike actually started up and ran, I decided to roughly imitate what Swan did with his impressive Gold Star build. He called 1000 miles the break-in point, so I did too.

It doesn't seem possible, but today makes 30 days already since the first startup. I had set myself a goal to have my 1000 miles run in within a month, so I did the final 150 miles today, and rolled up that 1000 mile marker I was looking for:

[Linked Image]

It might not have been a good idea, but it worked out O.K. to do this first thousand all by my lonesome. I picked my own roads and my own pace and stopped when I felt like it. She never let me down even once. I didn't have many tools with me (didn't ever need to get out the ones I had), but I will admit that I always had my cell phone. I have several friends with bike trailers, but I'm really glad I didn't have to call them.

Before taking off today, I pulled both plugs. They looked great to my eyes, so they went right back in. I am very pleased that those new jets seem to have fixed the over-rich condition.

People in the small towns seemed to gravitate to the bike today to talk. A woman at a gas station came over and said that her husband wanted me to stay there till he got his tank filled up so he could come over and have a look. Sure, why not? Meanwhile an older gent came up and started telling me about the Vincent Black Shadow he once owned.

At another place, a guy asked what year the bike was. I told him it was a '64, and he said that's what he thought. He said he had a friend with a nice '64 Triumph, but he had "totally wrecked it." He asked to take a picture, so he could show his friend what it should look like.

When I asked him how his friend's bike got wrecked, the guy said, "Oh, he didn't actually have an accident, he just made it into an ugly hard-tail chopper."

The main street in one little town where I stopped today has always reminded me of a movie set in an old Clint Eastwood movie. Here's a couple pictures from there:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

It's about time to change all the oils, drain the gas from the tank and carb, and put this thing back in the basement for the winter. I still have the Harleys in the garage to ride. Before I do that though, since she's broken in now, I may have to let her do the ton at least once. There probably won't be any speedo picture from that run.

Cheers!

Ray
Posted By: Gordon Gray

Re: Not broken -- just broken in . . . - 10/07/13 11:35 pm

Beautiful Ray.....simply beautiful.

You sir have every reason to be proud of her....and yourself bigt

Gordon (aka Opie Gone Bad)
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Not broken -- just broken in . . . - 10/08/13 12:52 am


I have to ask what you think of the old, Avon 'Slide Master' on the back Ray?

Rod
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Not broken -- just broken in . . . - 10/08/13 10:15 pm

Ha, Rod, funny you should ask. I was not going to ride the TR6 any more this year. But, Tuesday is breakfast day with the gang (usually all guys) at a restaurant 4 miles from home. I have been riding the Schwinn down there, but I thought today I'd ride Julia there and back. Once home, the oil would be warmed up and I could change it. Then I would store the bike.

After breakfast, one of the guys was asking about the Avon tires. I told him that I bought them based pretty much strictly on their vintage look (plus, you told me they would work out fine). I would have bought Dunlops if they still made the ribbed front tire. I told him that the Brits call them "Skid Masters" or "Slide Masters" instead of "Speed Masters", and explained why.

I remember Stuart warned me about them way back before I bought them. If I were a London courier like he once was, riding in all kinds of weather, I would be every bit as concerned as he was. If I were a hard riding road warrior, I'd like to have the Avon Roadriders that he recommended. Being the stodgy old fart that I am, these Avon MKII Speedmasters are doing just fine. They will never see wet pavement unless it is by accident. They will never touch their speed rating (112 mph), and they may never wear out, given the miles I will probably put on this bike. I'm not afraid of wet weather riding, and have done thousands of miles in the rain. I just don't plan to ride the TR6 that way.

That being said, I rode four miles to that restaurant, but took the long way home. Somehow, I racked up 112 more miles today, and the oil never got changed. I even stopped by home, did some chores and got the wife to go back out, riding pillion for most of those miles. We had a great day. Until today, she was scared of "that old bike with no sissy bar" and never wanted to ride on it.

HawaiianTiger warned me:

Originally Posted by HawaiianTiger
Get ready to ride, because it's nearly impossible to stay off a good running Triumph.

This bike has sidestand issues, but they are mental, not mechanical. Seems every time I want to park it, I decide to go for just one more little blast instead.

Cheers!

Ray
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Not broken -- just broken in . . . - 10/09/13 2:42 am


Another 500 miles Mate and you will be looking for a quiet back road and pretending your on the Isle of man! Last time i used the Avons i confess to blaming them for all sorts of handling problems, since then i found a list of faults with the bikes suspension. Glad they are working out for you.

Did Julia manage to charm the better half?

Rod
Posted By: kommando

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 10/09/13 5:19 am

Quote:
I told him that the Brits call them "Skid Masters" or "Slide Masters" instead of "Speed Masters", and explained why.


My first bike on one on the back, the first 2 times it rained I came off, the tyre never got to see the 3rd rainy day as it was replaced by a Roadrunner the next day, transformed the bike even in the dry as it lost that weird feeling at the rear as you leant over and the back rose as it went up onto the corner of the tyre. Only good for sidecars IMHO wink
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 10/09/13 10:33 am

Rod, every time I'm on a quiet back road and start thinking Isle of Man, I remember that there is likely to be a farmer with a slow moving grain wagon just around the next blind corner, or something like this, which is quite common at this time of year. With the corn head on the front, it would be a lot wider than this. By the way, the little green sign at the right is pointing to the town of "Ray", 2 miles down the road:

[Linked Image]

I'd say my wife did enjoy the ride yesterday and so did I. She had this fear of sliding off the back of the twinseat, so she kept sitting closer and hanging on tighter. Works for me. smirk

Kommando, that's good to know re: Speedmasters and wet pavement. It's understandable when you compare the grooves on these tires as compared to the Roadriders or any modern tire. On these vintage looking tires, there is no way to channel the water away from the contact patch.

Generally, I'd call myself an overly conservative rider, with some wilder moments here and there. I have never liked going into a corner WFO when I couldn't see what was around the bend. A "bimble in the lanes" these days suits me pretty well. In other words, I'd make a far better spectator than a racer at the Isle of Man. I don't feel too bad about that -- I imagine that's true for a lot of us.

Ray
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 10/10/13 1:40 am

She had this fear of sliding off the back of the twinseat, so she kept sitting closer and hanging on tighter. Works for me. smirk


You just hit on one of the many reasons why generations of men choose, Triumph, the worlds best and fastest motorcycle.

Rod
Posted By: Dave M

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 10/10/13 7:52 am

A beautiful motorcycle it is Ray. A smooth Tr6 on a country road? Oh yes I can identify with that... smile dave



Perhaps a TR6 sub-forum here on BB?
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 10/10/13 7:00 pm

A great picture, David. I really like the color scheme on the '66 TR6's like you and Redmoggy have. I'm glad you got yours sorted. It sounded like you were getting rather frustrated there for a while. Sometimes the best approach is to walk away and give yourself time to think about it.

{Edit from 8/12/2017 -- David's picture fell victim to the greed of this no-good-nik when he recently arbitrarily killed all the links that people had posted for the past ten or fifteen years. Why? -- because he could! He thought this would lead his company to sustainable profit. I hope they go out of business.}

[Linked Image]

I just happened to have a low-resolution backup of what David had posted, and will put it in here for continuity:


[Linked Image]

What sort of tank bag is that? I have never been a fan of those (Harley riders didain them you know laughing ), but I would like to put the parcel carrier to use. It looks like you have it secured without scratching your paint.

I got Julia all cleaned up last night, checked valve lash, and changed the oil and filter. I looked around at the local AutoZone store and found a filter wrench that works really well on the little Emgo 10-07700 filters. They had about four different sizes, but the bar code label on the one that fits ends in "407". I have my filter mounted vertically in front of the rear tire. There is just enough clearance between the filter and that big protruding frame lug to put this wrench in place. Sure made it easier than last time:

[Linked Image]

After all that, I cleaned up the Road King and gave it a check-over. My wife and I and three other couples ran the Harleys 120 miles today on some beautiful Autumn-time Illinois highways. Julia got a rest. I don't think she's quite ready to go to sleep for the winter yet, though.

One time today at a stoplight, I was sitting with the Harley in neutral and talking to a guy on another bike. The light changed and I tried to nudge into gear via the brake pedal. I was leading the pack today, and they all had to wonder why I was flashing my brake light instead of taking off. I guess I've been indoctrinated into RH shift!

Ray
Posted By: Dave M

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 10/10/13 7:54 pm

Yes Ray, thanks to help from this board I now think like an old motorcycle. Is that good?
I'm undecided about a tank bag, found this one in a bicycle shop for cheap. It attaches with Velcro straps and worked OK. It held a sandwhich and a bottle of water. cool dave
Posted By: TR6Ray

Down for the season - 10/30/13 12:33 am

Well, here's just one more post to wrap up this build thread. After the last oil change I never did restart the old girl. I have always liked to put them away for winter with fresh oil, uncontaminated with combustion by-products. That may be a silly superstition, but that's what I try to do. Monday, I drained the fuel system and blew a little air through the lines and carburetor. Then it was back to the basement with Julia. Barring any unforeseen disasters this winter, she will stay warm and dry and away from road salt off the other vehicles upstairs. There's always a Harley to ride in the winter.

I got this TR6R redone to my satisfaction, broken in, and I am putting her into the completed category. I know they are really never done, but for now I'm parking her and saying finished. Here she sits between two Japanese projects which are waiting for work.

[Linked Image]

About July of last year, I decided that I was pushing my luck by continuing to ride my little CL350 Honda. I was hearing cam chain noise, even after proper adjustment. If the tensioner fails, it can pretty well grenade the engine. That's not such a big job, but I don't like to have two bikes torn down at once, so I parked it. Now that I'm calling Julia done, I started in today to make this:

[Linked Image]

look like this:

[Linked Image]

and this:

[Linked Image]

The engine will be out in the morning, and I can start taking it apart to see what's what. Ideally, when Julia goes back into action in the Springtime, the little Honda CL350 and the Yamaha RD250 will both be bullet-proof and right up there with her. Anyway, that's my plans for the coming winter season. They aren't British, but they are fascinating little machines. Should be fun.

Thanks to all of you who have looked in on this project along the way, especially those who have lent support and advice. It absolutely would not have happened without this BritBike Forum.

Cheers!

Ray
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Down for the season - 10/30/13 2:20 am


That wee Honda, Ray is cute as a button. If you happened to slip in a few photos while updating us on Julia, i for one would not be to upset.

I dont think, that if i ever finish the Bonnie it will see road salt either.

Keep on swinging them spanners, Mate.

Rod
Posted By: TR6Ray

A post for Redmoggy - 11/05/13 5:42 am

Originally Posted by Redmoggy

That wee Honda, Ray is cute as a button. If you happened to slip in a few photos while updating us on Julia, i for one would not be to upset.

I dont think, that if i ever finish the Bonnie it will see road salt either.

Keep on swinging them spanners, Mate.

Rod

Big Disclaimer: Rod put me up to this. The TR6 build is done. This bit is a look inside a Japanese engine. If that offends you, please look away now.

How's that for transferring the blame, eh Rod? grin I hope Morgan doesn't kick us both out for this. Anyway, I am finding it interesting to compare this 1971 CL350 engine versus my 1964 TR6 Triumph engine. It was (is) my first venture inside the cases on either type of engine.

First off, the 650 Triumph bore size is only about 1/4" bigger than the 350 Honda, so I should be able to use the Triumph ring compressors on the Honda. The TR6 gets its whompin' big displacement by having a longer stroke (about 1 1/4" longer). Interestingly to me, the Brits were more honest when they called their engine a 650, only rounding up a smidgeon from the actual 649cc. The Japanese stretched the truth a little more by calling their engine a 350, rounding up from an actual 325cc displacement.

Besides the ring compressor, another tool that carries over from the TR6 to the Honda is the engine stand. You may recall that I got this bike lift for free and adapted it for use as an engine stand for the TR6.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I like this stand because it is very stable, it can be raised or lowered as needed, and it has casters so I can move it around very easily. It worked just as well for the 350 Honda, shown below. I just had to make some different adapters from the scrap bin:

[Linked Image]

Anyway, here I have the engine mostly apart on the stand. Like the Triumph, there are eight base studs to attach the cylinder block to the top case. The difference is that the Honda studs are much longer, extending up through the cylinder block, the head, the cam case on top of the head, and through a top cover plate. Conveniently, none of these components can be removed while the engine is in the frame!

Note the cam chain lying on top of the case, more on that in a bit:

[Linked Image]

Those studs can be removed from the top case, but it is much wiser to leave them alone.

Here is a closer shot of the clutch side of the engine.

[Linked Image]

This shows a major difference from the Triumph -- the Honda cases are split horizontally. This is touted as a big advantage for preventing leaks, but there are still horizontal shafts with lip seals that must be maintained or there can be anything from a drip to a gusher. The Honda also has side covers, both left and right, with gaskets to hold back oil. So, maybe not such a big deal that they split the cases differently.

Shown above, the big shaft on the right is the RH end of the crankshaft. It gets a pair of center-splined pinions that drive the clutch basket, which mounts on the next shaft to the left in the picture. Also mounting on the end of the crank is the equivalent of the Triumph sludge trap. The difference is that Honda calls it a centrifugal oil filter. It does have the advantage of being accesible for cleaning by removing a small round cover on the side case. Of course, we all know how to access the Triumph sludge trap.

The Honda is a wet-sump engine, so has no external oil tank like the Triumph. The oil pump goes in here below the end of the crankshaft and is a piston pump, driven by an eccentric off the back of the clutch basket (not shown here).

Like the Triumph, the Honda has a clutch push rod that comes through the center of the gearbox mainshaft, but of course, the clutch basket is on the opposite side, as compared to the Triumph. Again, this is a picture of the RH side of the engine.

The mechanism that looks kind of like a mousetrap is the shift linkage. It is attached to a shaft that goes clear through to the LH side of the bike and attaches to the shift lever.

Finally, the shaft at the lower left is for the kick starter.

To split the cases, it is easiest to flip the engine upside down (most of the bolts go from the bottom side up). So I made up another little jig, this time from wood, for the machined surface of the top case to rest upon. Here's the engine flipped over, so we're now looking at the LH side. On the Honda, this is the drive side, as you can tell by the countershaft sprocket still attached. Over here are those lip seals i mentioned. There is one for the sprocket shaft, the shift shaft, and the clutch push rod. There is also a possible leak point at the shifter drum:

[Linked Image]

One big difference from the Triumph to the Honda, is the electric starter that drives this end of the crankshaft at the touch of a button. There is a little 12V motor that accomplishes this. It isn't shown here, but would normally mount across the front of the engine and poke its nose through that hole at the RH edge of the picture.

In order to have enough torque to spin the engine, the starter motor goes through approximately an 18:1 reduction ratio. Part of this is done with this tiny planetary gear system:

[Linked Image]

And part of the reduction is accomplished with this chain and sprocket system.

[Linked Image]

The big sprocket on the crankshaft is stationary when the engine is running. The crank simply spins inside of it. It is connected to the crankshaft by a sprag clutch behind the alternator rotor when the starter is doing its thing.

[Linked Image]

I was able to arrange things so that those long studs could poke down through the engine stand. I also have not removed the pistons. They are hanging upside down inside the wood frame. The pistons and bores mic out at original factory spec, so they will stay as is. I will hone the bores, but may even re-use the existing rings. They look to be in very good condition.

[Linked Image]

Note the chain that is now dangling down. This is the whole reason for this teardown. It is a continuous chain (no master link) that runs from the crankshaft, up a tunnel through the cylinder block and head and around the single, overhead camshaft that spins in its own box on top of the head. It is stretched and needs to be replaced. You can do this by breaking the old chain, adding a master link, and using the old chain to drag in a new one. Or you can lift the crankshaft and replace the chain without using a master link. I chose not to break the chain.

Here's what I found inside the bottom case -- about the level of crud I expected. This bike is 43 years old, but only has 10,000+ miles on it.

[Linked Image]

To the RH side of the picture (front of the engine), you can see the windage tray that separates the oil sump from the crankshaft. This is riveted in, so I will need to clean under it without removing it.

And here is a look at the guts of the engine and gearbox. Basically, we are looking up from the bottom.

[Linked Image]

It's kind of a neat little package! Five speeds, versus the TR6's four speed box. Also, though the Honda crankshaft is smaller and probably less stressed, it has four main bearings compared to the two main bearings on the TR6. Of course the Honda has a higher redline, at 9,500 rpm.

This final picture shows the center bearing cap removed from the crank. You can see that pesky cam chain that started all this problem. Oh well, every engine has to have its Achilles heel!

[Linked Image]

Related to this is the system to keep the chain at its proper tension. This consists of a rubber slipper blade, much like the tensioner for the unit Triumph primary chain. There is also a pair of rubber rollers, one on either side of the rear strand of chain.

[Linked Image]

From all I have read, and from the noise this chain was making, I expected to find these rubber parts essentially shredded. I guess I parked the bike in time, because although the chain is stretched, the rubber parts look better than what some people are trying to sell on eBay. The tensioner parts are no longer available from Honda, but some NOS is still out there.

All told, this is probably a five or six hour job, but, working at my normal breakneck pace, I managed to stretch it out over the past week. I'll be doing some painting and cleaning, maybe a valve job and a bore hone (done by my friend who did the same on the TR6), and then reassembly. I'll be using an aftermarket chain and tensioner, the one that the AHRMA racers like for this little engine. I may also opt for an aftermarket EI. Up till now, this bike has been running on the original set of points, condensers and coils. I had it a little above 80 mph a couple times, and it would have done more. The cam chain racket scared me enough to back off. A year and a half ago, I parked it to wait till the TR6 was done. This bike was advertised to do the ton when it was new. I'm betting it will.

I hope it runs when I'm done, and I hope at least some of this was of interest.

Cheers!

Ray
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: A post for Redmoggy - 11/05/13 9:33 am

I haven't seen any of these do over 90, so i'll take you on your wager LOL

If the carbs go out of sync this can exacerbate the problem. The billet cam chain tensioners are a good way to go.

Nice strip down and explanation bigt
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: A post for Redmoggy - 11/05/13 5:19 pm

O.K. Allan, Let's go for, say, £500. Of course, it will be illegal for me to go this fast, so there can't be any witnesses around. You'll have to take my word for it, knowing that I would absolutely NEVER lie to you. I can accept Paypal. I'll let you know when it's time to go ahead and transfer the funds.

beerchug

Ray
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: A post for Redmoggy - 11/05/13 5:55 pm

laughing

It has all the essence of those Nigerian emails....

Dear Sir, I am a wealthy Nigerian and I would like to give you 2 billion dollars, please send me all your banking information so I can deposit this into your account. (we all know how it goes)

beerchug

Those 350's are really good bikes and far better than the later 360
Posted By: HawaiianTiger

Re: A post for Redmoggy - 11/06/13 12:01 am

Ray,
This gives me some confidence to do the Kz's cam chain when it goes. I went with the billet adjuster a couple of years ago but not before the automatic tensioner accounted for most of the chain stretch it now has. I should get 50k before needing a new one.(have 40k now) I pulled the top end off last year to replace hardened valve stem seals and was amazed at how nice everything was. I didn't even hone and it runs perfectly.
Some folks go for a rivet-on chain but you have to pop around 80$ or more for the tool. I assume yours is endless? Is it a toothed chain(silent chain or hyvo?)
Cheers,
Bill
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: A post for Redmoggy - 11/06/13 1:24 am

Yes, Bill, the chain is endless, but not the silent or hyvo type, just a roller chain. You can get replacements with master links, and many people do that to avoid splitting the cases and disturbing the bottom end. I thought I'd have more peace of mind without the master link. Also, I figured it might be good to clean out the bottom case.

I have heard more than one tale of woe where a guy was not going to split the cases, but the chain or one of the tensioner bits escaped down the hole. That leads to fishing with a magnet and X-rated language.

I like this little bike, and it is sort of a ten footer (looks great standing that far back). It is still wearing the original paint other than where I have derusted and touched up some of the black iron. I'm letting it keep it's patina. It is kind of liberating not to be worrying too much about plating, paint, powdercoat, etc. this time around.
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: A post for Redmoggy - 11/06/13 1:41 am


Tried to read through before i left for work this morning, Ray. Was getting late so ended up taking the TR6 in the rain, poor old tart!

Surprising how easy it is recognize Japanese engineering. All those pubic hair springs makes me think of changing Jap car cambelts. Without a doubt a very cool bit of kit, i really enjoyed the pictures.

More interesting, to me anyway, is being able to compare with a Japanese bike of similar vintage. You start to see how and why things went so wrong for British engineering.

Thank you Ray, i hope you have not had a nasty message from Morgan!

All the best
Rod
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: A post for Redmoggy - 11/06/13 5:53 pm

Originally Posted By: Redmoggy
More interesting, to me anyway, is being able to compare with a Japanese bike of similar vintage. You start to see how and why things went so wrong for British engineering.

Rod, that is sort of the reason I put all this in here. I found the comparison interesting, so it is sort of BritBike related. What I see after looking at all the aspects of the TR6 and the Honda is not so much "how and why things went so wrong for British engineering", but rather how closely the Japanese copied from the British. The Japanese have always been good at reverse engineering someone else's design and then looking for ways to improve each aspect of it as they are copying the concept.

I read that in 1960, Edward Turner went on a trip to Japan that was sponsored by Mikuni. He visited Honda, Suzuki, and Yamaha, and reported back to BSA upper management. One comment he made was, "The surface finishes on machined parts and standards of accuracy were, I should think, better than our best work."

Back when I first started working on my TR6, I remember remarking to a friend how similar the wheel bearings and distance pieces and brake hub were to the Honda I had just gone through. He said, "Well, yeah, but to some extent that's just how you build a motorcycle wheel."

That may be true, but the Brits did it way beforehand. Anyway, I like having a peek inside, no matter what it is. If it runs when I get done, so much the better.

I still respect and admire the way that you use your TR6 as an everyday workhorse. Knowing how much you appreciate and enjoy the beauty of your bike, you are using it the way it was intended.

Ray
Posted By: T140V-Rich

Re: A post for Redmoggy - 11/09/13 8:32 am

AAYYYYY!! Me eyes, me eyes, I'm blinded after looking at a Japanese engine, oh me eyes!

laughing

Actually, that's not the first time I've seen inside a Japaense engine. When my older cousin got out of the Navy, he paid the bouncer a little extra ... grin

It looks like the machining reflects what ET was saying about the precision, etc. I re-did the top end on a 250 once and what made an impression on me (besides flying spanners, which made several impressions on me) was the precision and light weight.

I was telling my wife the other day (bless her for listening as if she's genuinely interested smile ) that my rocker box weighs more than half of a Japanese bike. My cylinders and head DO weigh more than a Japanese bike.

Good luck on the rebuild, Ray. We, I say "we," my dad had a CB? back in the very early 70s. A rather large man, he said it struggled to pull him. It's actually how we "got into" Triumph. Looking for something more for him, he looked at a 71 Bonnie. He was told "it'll pull ye."

And Triumph's been "pulling" us since. Course, my brother, being the prodigal son, went astray in the late 70s and bought an 850 Norton Commando with the original dealer sticker on the taillamp.

But before the screaming Bonnies, before the Snortin Norton, the restos, the thefts of the bikes (another story for another day), *we* had that little 350. Probably one of the first bikes on which I rode pillion with my dad driving. I weighed about 55 pounds and he....didn't. smile

Lots of fun. Good memories. Thanks for sharing, Ray.

Cheers mate

Richard
Posted By: TR6Ray

A few more illicit photo's - 04/03/14 1:15 pm

Originally Posted by T140V-Rich
AAYYYYY!! Me eyes, me eyes, I'm blinded after looking at a Japanese engine, oh me eyes!

laughing

Hide your eyes again, Rich. Here's a bit more. Spring has sprung and so yesterday I finished buttoning up the little CL350. I see looking back in this thread that I tore it down for the 3-day job of replacing the cam chain. So, 5 months later, I'm about ready to take it outside and see if it lives. That's about my normal pace any more. Part of the delay was waiting out the weather to paint some engine parts. Other days were spent helping some friends who were victimized by last year's tornado.

I mentioned before that I pulled this little bike from a barn the same week that I got Julia, my TR6, from a different barn.

Here's a "before" picture for those who like such a thing:

[Linked Image]

I got it running without doing any engine work, and put about 1000 miles on it. Cam chain noise was making me nervous, so I parked it in June of 2012, till I could finish up with my Triumph project. Over this past winter, I put in a Tsubaki cam chain, a KA tensioner, rebuilt the starter motor and sprag clutch, put in the first new points and condenser since 1971, and did some general cleaning, painting, and polishing.

The jury is still out as to whether it will run again after my invasive surgery on the engine. I measured everything against specs, and was surprised at how good everything looked inside. But this is a low budget job, so if it wasn't broken, I didn't want to fix it. For example, I honed the bores, but re-used the old rings. They looked perfect; the ring gap was in spec; and I'm simply curious to see how this turns out. Before teardown, the engine had good compression and did not smoke or use any oil. I did replace all gaskets and seals.

Anyway, here are some pictures I took this morning:

[Linked Image]

The lower half of the case was never painted from the factory, but the upper half was. So that is how I did it again. I used Duplicolor DE1612 primer and DE1615 500° Engine Enamel with ceramic. I had one rattle can of each. As a side note, the only store in town that had this paint got totally flattened by our tornado just a couple days after I bought the stuff. They are in the process of rebuilding. In the interest of cheapness, I painted the upper case half, the jugs, the head, the cam box, and two LH side covers with a single can of paint (it was spitting empty at the last). I'm pretty pleased with the paint. It matches the original Honda Silver Cloud engine paint pretty well. In the picture above, the side cover should be painted, but I polished the aluminum instead. The upper case and the starter motor are done in the Duplicolor paint.

Here's the other side. The points and AAU reside under the little cover above the spark plug. There were a number of EI units available for these bikes, but all are either off the market, having high warranty claims, or prohibitively expensive. Besides, I guess everybody should stay up to date on breaker points, right?

[Linked Image]

Some more pictures:

[Linked Image]

All the painted parts are still original paint. They are all a bit different shades because they were in different parts of the barn during the long sojourn, about 34 years I reckon. Some are sun faded, some less so. They could all stand a repaint, but again in the interest of cheapness, patina, and preservation, they are what they are.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Meanwhile, Julia is sitting off to one side losing continence on the speedo drive seal at the gearbox. Over the winter, she made a spot of 90Wt about 5 inches in diameter. This is in a terrible spot to access without removing stuff that I would rather not remove. When I get done fooling around with the Honda, she's up next. I have an extra Whitworth wrench that I bought with the intention of modding it via my bench grinder. I want to see if I can sneak that seal out of there with minimum effort.

I also detected a bit of clutch slip a couple times last year. I set the pressure plate screws about even with the bottom of the slots, hoping for lighter clutch pull. The clutch has a nice feel, but I think I will tighten them up a bit and see if the slipping stops. Those friction discs are only 50 yrs old and shouldn't need replacement yet!

Hope this Japanese diversion doesn't bother anyone, and maybe provides a bit of free entertainment.

Cheers!

Ray
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: A few more illicit photo's - 04/03/14 2:45 pm

Re TR6: you may need to only adjust the clutch centre, the pushrod may have mushroomed or formed a dimple hole where the ball etc has been.

Re Honda: looks really great, I used to play with my dads CJ360 which was a similar beast but without the electric starter, the points were fine ( as they are on my 400/4, rarely need adjustment and trigger directly at the crank) The CJ always operated best when the ignition timing was set statically. I don't recall the manual giving strobe timing instructions and I don't think the flywheel alternator has fully advanced markings. ( been a few engines through my fingers since for me to recall exactly)

Best of luck!
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: A few more illicit photo's - 04/03/14 4:32 pm

Thanks, Allan.

It's only been 1100 miles since I put the TR6 back together, and the pushrod looked good then. However, what you are saying would sure be easier and certainly worth checking first. The worst bit with pulling the chaincase is the exhaust and footpeg, but still not too big a deal. I saw where you lifted the barrels and head as a unit on your BSA, so what am I griping about?

I have set the timing statically on the little beastie, but the FSM does recommend strobing it. There are marks on the alternator rotor where the advance should stop. Since it's a 180° degree engine, there is a set of marks for each cylinder (Fire, TDC, and two marks for end of advance, such that the reference mark on the stator should land between the marks at full advance). A lot of people probably don't bother with the strobe, but I always worry about burning a hole in a piston or some such bad luck.

If this little bike runs, I want to play with it a bit and then it will probably be for sale, so best not to blow it up. If it doesn't run, I may shoot it and hang it on the wall. laughing

There was actually a time when I first got it running about 4 yrs ago, when a guy came up and said, "I love that little Honda. Just how big a check will I need to write this minute to make it mine?"

I hate to admit it, but I told him I wasn't ready to sell it. You can call that the day that two fools met! crazy
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: A few more illicit photo's - 04/03/14 5:11 pm

I used to hate removing the chain case on my A65, disconnecting the brake, foot peg, then cleaning up the oil mess. The dry belt and easy access because of the rear sets make it an easy job. It's just a shame that access hole isn't big enough to spoon a ring spanner in there, instead you get an inch sized hole that can marginely allow access for a box spanner.

Jacking the cylinders up was a p.i.t.a. Removing and fitting the exhaust system, is never much fun either.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: A few more illicit photo's - 04/03/14 6:17 pm

Well, your A65 is really looking good. Too bad you temporarily had to switch heads after all the work, and I'm still watching to see you slice and dice that spare chain case. I'm thinking it would be easier to cut the spare into an open case for clearance instead of getting a fragile narrow band that won't fracture. I assume the spacers are working fine for now, though. As long as you are still having fun with it, you'll stay at it.

Ray
Posted By: HawaiianTiger

Re: A few more illicit photo's - 04/03/14 7:08 pm

Ray,
That's a good looking little bike made even better by a patient, talented owner.
Funny, I don't remember thinking that these bikes looked good in their day, but now they do.
I'm sure they're a better ride that the earlier 305's which, by the way, I got to ride then and just hated them.
In fact, I did get to ride one of these in the early '70's. One of our gang of mixed bikers had one and he tailed along in the back of the pack. He never made roadside repairs, though, like the rest of us...just kept motoring along.
cheers,
Bill
Posted By: D.Bachtel

Re: A few more illicit photo's - 04/03/14 9:27 pm

Originally Posted By: HawaiianTiger
Ray,
That's a good looking little bike made even better by a patient, talented owner.
Funny, I don't remember thinking that these bikes looked good in their day, but now they do.
I'm sure they're a better ride that the earlier 305's which, by the way, I got to ride then and just hated them.
In fact, I did get to ride one of these in the early '70's. One of our gang of mixed bikers had one and he tailed along in the back of the pack. He never made roadside repairs, though, like the rest of us...just kept motoring along.
cheers,
Bill



What?
I loved my Buddy's CL77.
It was great fun up and down Sunset Blvd and Topanga, Malibu Canyons.
Mullholland Hwy, Stunt Road, Van Nuys Blvd....

Don in Nipomo
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: A few more illicit photo's - 04/04/14 11:28 am

H.T.: I agree. Back in the day, I thought these were worthless little lumps. As a kid, I did have a used '69 CL450, because that was what I could (barely) afford, but the 350's -- why bother? The first time I spotted this bike, all I could see was the tip of the rear fender. I first thought it was a 450, so I took a closer look. I was thinking it would be fun to try to restore a bike like I had when I was young.

When I figured out what it was, it was a disappointment. It sat there neglected for another 2 years before I decided to pursue dragging it home. Somehow along the way, I have become very attached to it. I think it began with the mystique of hearing an engine wake up and run after such a long sleep. Then I started to appreciate the engineering that went into such a little package to make it all work. From there it was a slippery slope to where I am now.

Don: Riding your buddy's CL77 put you pretty close to Pirsig and his Zen & The Art of Motorcycle Mtce. At least you didn't go insane from it. By the way, your Lightning is fabulous! It looks perfect in every detail. I love the mellow look you achieved on the cases. Parked next to the Zundapp, it would be easy to spend a lot of time on a shop stool just staring at the details -- yet I know you ride them both! Very nice work indeed.
Posted By: TR6Ray

A good morning . . . not so good afternoon - 04/05/14 10:44 pm

Disclaimer -- this is the wrap-up of the little Honda that I tacked onto the end of my TR6 build thread. Sorry, no Britbike content, but this is the end of the story.

Today the weather was beautiful -- our first really nice Spring day. I brought the CL350 out of the basement and up the hill to the garage. Off I went for a fresh can of ethanol (yikes!). I sort of nervously filled the tank. If I had something screwed up inside the engine, I really didn't want to mess with it anymore, and there were a number of things running through my mind, as always.

So, there was nothing for it but to try it. Ignition and kill switch turned on, petcock on, choke on (no tickler involved here), neutral light on (yeah, it has one of those), press the e-start, two spins of the starter motor, and it just started to purr in a perfect idle. Hallelujah!

[Linked Image]

No smoke, no leaks, no trauma. I didn't even mess with the carbs. They were dialed in well when I put it away in June, 2012. I had sync'ed the cables before I dragged it into the sunshine, but no further adjustment of anything -- not even idle adjustment. Up and down the street we went, and all was well, shifted nicely through the gears, clutch was working great, good throttle response, and best of all -- no more cam chain noise! The sweet smell of success was all around me for sure.

Off I went around the town. I stopped by the place where I had pulled this thing out of the barn, and the PO was there. We talked a bit and he said, "Hey Ray that back tire looks a little low."

Up on the centerstand, gave it a spin, and there was the nail. I never should have gone through the part of town where the tornado houses are being torn down. We aired it back up and I headed for home. Made it about one mile before the back end went all goofy, but I stopped with the tire still on the rim. Then it was an hour and a half wait for my buddy to show up with his trailer to end the ride in despair. So the maiden voyage lasted 10.5 miles, the last 3.0 being trailer miles.

Of course I was stopped in the middle of the town square. A BMW airhead friend stopped and talked a while. Then a guy I know who has a rather awesome collection of Triumph's and BSA's stopped to see if I was wanting to trade it in on something British.

So, there we have it. I guess the Triumph gods got even with me for sneaking this Japanese stuff in here at the end of my Britbike build thread. Oh well, the tires were 6 years old and I was thinking I really should replace them. And on it goes . . .

Posted By: kommando

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 04/06/14 2:49 am




Nail from the Ogri cartoon strip

Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 04/06/14 11:24 am

Kommando,

That says it all, and is a pretty good likeness of me too. You really nailed it with that cartoon.

beerchug

Ray
Posted By: Rickman

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 04/06/14 6:38 pm

Originally Posted By: kommando



Nail from the Ogri cartoon strip



I sure wish someone coming over for the Int'l, would find a used edition of the Ogri cartoon compilation book, and bring it over in their luggage...
Posted By: quinten

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 04/06/14 10:17 pm


Ogri fix here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbIYEFbVPvs&feature=youtube_gdata_player
.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 04/07/14 9:37 am

Quinten,

Now that's some funny stuff there! I don't know how I got this old without ever once hearing of Ogri. Seems he's been around for a long time. Of course, I never heard of the 2 Ronnies either until I started to broaden my horizons by reading the BritBike Forum.

Gotta go now, I need to go buy four candles.

Ray
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 04/08/14 4:45 am


Ray, only just heard of the 2 Ronnies. I dont know what to say! Perhaps if you have not, you should check out 'Open all Hours'!

On topic, that is such a pretty little bike. Well done!

Rod
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 04/08/14 8:54 am

Originally Posted by Redmoggy

Ray, only just heard of the 2 Ronnies. I dont know what to say! Perhaps if you have not, you should check out 'Open all Hours'!

On topic, that is such a pretty little bike. Well done!

Rod

Heh, yeah -- tire trouble in front of #87!

[Linked Image]

I got a set of tires & tubes on order yesterday. Tires made in Germany, warehoused in California, ordered through a dealer in Miami, Florida! What an ordeal. Meanwhile, I wanted to get the little beastie rolling again so I put in the only tube I had on hand that was right for it, which happens to be 43 years old (used). It holds air, but I wouldn't want to do the ton on it. The idea was to just be able to move it in the garage, but I admit that I did run it up and down the street a bit. It is parked now till the tires get here, and meanwhile, I'm getting back to the TR6. Julia should be out and about again soon.

Ray
Posted By: TR6Ray

Springtime, clutch springs, and horsetrading - 05/01/14 11:47 am

Here we are at the first of May, 2014, and Julia still resides in the basement. I felt the clutch break loose two or three times during break-in, and the speedo drive seal developed a slow seep over the winter. When I rebuilt the TR6, I stuck the original clutch springs (57-1560) back in the pressure plate. This was evidently a stupid bit of false economy. Depending on which ones you get, they cost from US $3.00 to $6.00 each, and of course there are only three of them. Mitch Klempf is sending me some. I ordered the standard springs for the T140 (57-4644). I also have a new seal coming for the speedo. If I can finesse it in there, the bike should be leak free.

According to John Healy's clutch article in Vintage Bike, volume 2009-2, Spring of 2012, "Often, going to the next stronger spring is too much. By installing the next heavier spring, but only screwing the nut so the stud is flush with the bottom of the slot you can incrementally increase spring pressure."

The main thing that prompted me to get new springs is that when I adjusted the pressure plate for minimum wobble, two of the springs were adjusted flush to the top of the nut slot, while the third one was near the bottom of the nut slot. I want to see how the new springs, hopefully all the same free length, will make things work.

Of course all of this would have been done if I hadn't worked on the little CL350 over the winter. However, the new Heidenau tires, tubes, and rim strips are on and balanced. I rode the bike about 200 miles and then spent a day going back over it. I re-torqued the head bolts (actually acorn nuts on studs in this case), re-tensioned the cam chain (which is way quiet compared to the old one), checked valve lash, re-synched the carbs, changed the oil and filter, and put on another 50 miles. The little bike is running great.

[Linked Image]

I like the little Honda a lot. It always fires right up; it's fun to bomb around on; it's as easy to move around in the garage as the typical bicycle (push bike to the Brits). But now I have a dilemma. My friend who has the BMW buried in his barn also likes the CL350 (if interested, see raf940's BMW thread where I mentioned this bike before). He has asked if I want to swap the Honda for the BMW. I told him I probably would if he threw in some cash boot, which he is willing to do.

On the surface this seems like a no-brainer, but I just got the Honda on the road and want to ride it a while. I also know that it is 43 yrs old and could go south on him in a week's time. That may be a false worry, since I have been over every square millimeter of this little bike, but what about the charging system and the rest of the electrics? Fine now, but who knows? If it breaks, I know who would end up working on it. It also doesn't seem fair to shove the little bike back into a barn after I just rescued it from a different one.

Meanwhile, I now have four runnable motorcycles (well I will have as soon as Julia gets her new clutch springs). My garage only has room for three. So . . . I'm saying goodbye to an old friend, my '95 FLHR. Here she was yesterday as I changed all the fluids and serviced her for the final time:

[Linked Image]

Harley haters in the crowd will be proud of me for this. My wife wants to know why I am selling the only bike she found really comfortable to ride, but it is just getting to be too big a lump to have in the garage. I am rediscovering the joy of the smaller machines.

This has gotten too lengthy again, as usual, and I gotta go now. A young guy wants to give me some money in exchange for a Harley.

Cheers,

Ray
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: Springtime, clutch springs, and horsetrading - 05/04/14 1:41 am

The Road King has gone to its new owner, and Julia is edging towards the door to come upstairs and occupy the newly vacated space. The parts from Klempf's arrived, and I think the new springs will help the clutch. The standard T140 springs are a slightly larger diameter wire. I measured .108" vs. .098" for my old springs which were the original from the factory. Side by side, there is a visual difference. I tried to take a picture, but it's pretty blurred. The heavier spring is on the left:

[Linked Image]

What actually matters is the spring rate. I didn't bother to measure it, I just know these are supposed to be heavier than what I had. My clutch only slipped a couple times last year, and both times, I hadn't ridden very far from cold startup. So we'll see how this goes. The clutch lever has a heavier pull, but it isn't too bad at all.

With the springs in place, I adjusted the nuts to where the screws protrude about two threads above the bottom of the slot.
[Linked Image]

Then I set up my indicator to measure the wobble:

[Linked Image]

I know that some people just pull in the clutch lever to lift the pressure plate and then watch the plate as they give it a spin with the kickstart lever. I didn't figure I was going to be able to tell much by that, so I tied the lever back, put the gearbox into 4th gear and turned the back wheel with my hand while watching the indicator. I tweaked them a little but not much. They were all three within .006", so I quit there.

I had ordered a new tensioner blade just because I've been using the original one (1964 vintage). I decided not to install the new one, though. I forgot that I would have to pull the stator to switch out the tensioner. With my old Lucas non-encapsulated stator, it would just be too easy to disturb the windings. I checked my rotor clearance as .008" all around and decided to let this sleeping dog lie. The charging system has been working great so far and I don't want to mess it up if I dont have to. I could pull the tensioner out enough to see that it was still perfectly smooth, and looked to have no thin areas:

[Linked Image]

I also noticed that every side plate on the primary chain has "Japan" stamped into it. I guess that's what happens from parking Julia next to the Honda and Yamaha all winter. Ah well, I set the tension and resealed the drain plug.

Using a new gasket from Klempf's, I got my chaincase back on and put in the 350 cc's of ATF type F. Nary a leak, and the gasket that Mitch sent me is a perfect fit. I managed to refit the footpeg, LH exhaust, brake lever, etc. This stuff isn't too hard to R&R after you do it a couple times.

Tomorrow, if I can get the seal replaced on my speedometer drive, and charge the battery a bit, she ought to be back on the road.

On a side note, last week was the city cleanup day, where people are supposed to empty their basements and garages of all their junk and pile it at the curb for pickup. I used that as an opportunity to go shopping. A neighbor set out a pretty decent adjustable desk chair, so I nabbed it. It was all wobbly because a bushing was missing from the swivel part. I made a new one and it works great. I can drop the chair down and use it like a shop stool. Fits the nasty decor too.

That only lasted till my shop assistant found it. I'm back to using my little Harbor Freight stool again.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: Springtime, clutch springs, and horsetrading - 05/04/14 1:54 am


I have those T140 springs in the TR6 Ray, They seem to have made all the difference. The Bonny has a set of Kibblewhite springs, very nice looking in red powder coat but I had to force them into the buckets. We shall see.

I guess I count as one of the Harley haters but it's always sad when an old friend leaves. I hope you had a last beer with her before she departed.

All the best
Rod
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 05/05/14 2:28 pm

Hey Rod,

Thanks for the feedback on the T140 clutch springs in your TR6. I'm hoping for the best. You may wish you had them in your T120 as well. That doesn't sound kosher -- having to force the springs into the buckets. Several problems come to my mind, but I'm sure you are aware of what they are.

I had that Road King for nine years. Lots of good times were had with it, and I can't remember any bad times. I've known the PO for forty-six years, and remember well when he first got it. He had it for ten years and sort of forbid me to ever sell it. He only sold it to me because he had health issues and couldn't ride anymore. I got around that by calling up his nephew who is also a friend of mine. He was at the house in less than three minutes to look at it. I told him he could take a test ride after I changed the oils and checked it over. So, a couple days later and he was back.

I rode with him on another bike, just to make sure there weren't any wheelies or stoppies going on. laughing When we got back, he wanted to know how soon we could make the deal. I told him he ought to let me at least have a day to detail the bike. Nah -- he didn't want to wait. He wound up handing me US dollars cash in an envelope and threw in a 12 pack as thanks for the service work. I cracked one open, and watched him go up the street, feeling sad and happy all at the same time.

It was time, and it feels right for all concerned. I hope it does well for him. First place he went was to visit his uncle, so I got a phone call immediately. He told me I was crazy to sell it, but that I had done the right thing. Happy all around! I'm sure I will be riding beside it again in the future, but I'll be on my TR6 and let the young guy handle the big bike. I think he's in love.
beerchug

Meanwhile, turning my attention back to Julia, I took a look at that speedo drive oil leak. It seemed to me that the oil was seeping out around the cable end, where the nut grabs it. That is an evil place to fit a wrench. There is no room for an open end wrench, and you can't put a box end (ring spanner) on there because of the cable. A couple years ago, I called Jon at British Fasteners to see if he had a 5/16 WW sized tubing wrench. He didn't, but he sold me another ring spanner so I could make it into a tubing wrench. Yesterday, I had a go with the grinder:

[Linked Image]

The cable is about 5/16" O.D. so I cut my wrench to fit. The small notch on the side is to let me have a tad more swing before the wrench is stopped by the outer gearbox cover. The big notch does the same thing, except it is to clear the engine oil lines. With the notches, I can turn just enough to slide the wrench off the nut and go to the next of the 12 pt teeth for a new bite. Like I said, mad an evil spot for a wrench, but it works.

I found the nut was loose and I snugged it up. I don't know if the oil can come out the end of the drive, but overnight there was no oil spot on the floor -- maybe I fixed it. If not, I'll have to pull the outer gearbox cover and take the speedo drive out to replace the seal.

Seems a shame to cut up a brand new wrench that had not even been used yet, but that is the third one of that size that I have bought from Jon.

[Linked Image]

So, Julia is back up in the garage, giving up her spot for the next project. I think this comes next:

[Linked Image]

There will be no paint or plating involved here, but I want to put in new crank seals. Should be intersting since I have never been inside a two-smoker. I do have the FSM, and it is even in English.

The CB 450 now has room to spread out along the wall. I may pull the tins and give them to a painter I know. Maybe they will be done by the time I'm ready for them.

[Linked Image]

So, what about Julia? She's up in the garage, hooked to the battery tender. I am waiting for the light to turn green before I try to light her off. I tried to take a picture without the flash, and it drove my camera crazy. It's kind of neat though -- psychedelic even. In case deadstiffcatt is watching, this one is for you:

[Linked Image]
The red streak on the wall is the LED on the battery tender that tells me my battery isn' quite there yet.

Same shot, but with the flash:

[Linked Image]

I won't rush her. I'm gonna go ride the little Honda while I wait. I'm planning to go visit the R90/6 that may (or may not) be in my future. My wife just told me that I'd better not come home with a BMW, so the chances are good that I will -- just to see if she really meant it.

Cheers!

Ray
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 05/06/14 9:02 pm

After about five hours yesterday, the battery tender LED went from red to flashing green, then steady green, so should be good to go. I didn't get a chance to ride till late this afternoon, but Julia fired up on the very first kick.

The new clutch springs work great. There's no hint of clutch slip from a standing start or when I crack the throttle in any gear. She just goes! The lever pull is only slightly harder, but nothing to be concerned about. It seems to shift smoother, including from neutral to first.

I got along O.K. with my first RH shifting ride of the year. Should be a good Summer.

Ray
Posted By: GrandPaul

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 05/06/14 10:40 pm

Harder springs can be mostly adjusted out with leverage; the only downside is a bit more slack at the lever.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 05/08/14 9:47 pm

Originally Posted By: GrandPaul
Harder springs can be mostly adjusted out with leverage; the only downside is a bit more slack at the lever.

GP, When you say "adjusted out with leverage", I think you are talking about clutch lever length and pivot position at the handlebar end. There are several reasons why I am stupid to keep using the handlebar controls that I have, but they are original to the bike. I have gone to too many pains to keep them and make them viable. The slightly harder lever pull is really a non-issue for me, and the clutch is working great. I'll just keep it as is. I rode the bike today and it was such a good experience that I can't put it into words.

A couple days ago, I took Julia over to see a guy I know who now has a '64 Bonneville. Sorry, I had no camera with me. I will have the next time. It would make a good picture to show the two paint schemes together. We will be doing some riding together this summer. Julia got so excited to see a sister bike from the old country that she started dripping some cream out her breather pipe onto his driveway.

Ray (who is inching closer to rescuing an old airhead from a barn -- maybe next week!)
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 05/09/14 3:22 am


Ray, I am hurt and disappointed. You knew where you was going and what would be there and you gave no thought to your fellow BritBikers and neglected to take a camera! But, it's ok, these things can be forgiven.........once!

Seriously, would be great to see the two bikes together. Maybe somewhere like Dave's Apple Blossom ride? I love that Julia got exited!

I cant think of a better Man to rescue the Air Head.

Regards
Rod
Posted By: GrandPaul

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 05/09/14 9:25 am

What I meant was introduce more cable slack at the lever; so disengagement happens with your fingers at a "tighter" grip position, where they have more leverage with less effort.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 05/12/14 5:57 pm

O.K., I'll say right up front that this is non-BritBike content coming up again, except that Julia was involved. She carried me and my camera over to the secret spot where the immobile and dusty R90/6 resides. Thus, with a ROK strap in place of a strip of Dunlop inner tube (which is what Hughie Hancox used in the old days), my camera became the first passenger on Julia's parcel carrier rack in at least 43 years. This worked out just fine.

Here is a bit of what I saw:

The OPEN sign was lit; can you find the motorcycle?:

[Linked Image]

It's fairly big:

[Linked Image]

And it's German:

[Linked Image]

And it's in original black with white pinstriping, which is pretty nice:

[Linked Image]

And there is a bike gazing stool nearby:

[Linked Image]

And I'm pretty sure I could make it run. Bings can't be any worse to deal with than Keihin or Amal, and I'm getting along pretty well with some of those:

[Linked Image]

On the other hand, it would almost be a shame to disturb this old girl's slumber. I estimate that I have ridden this machine about 4,000 miles, but only in my mind. That's about how many times I have sat on the seat and imagined we were rolling down the road. I have honestly never ridden an AirHead in my whole life, but this one has a very comfortable seat. Up until a year ago, I had also never ridden a 1964 TR6.

I have already snuck in a quick series of Japanese pictures at the end of my TR6 build thread. This Beemer may take more than a quick series of pics (then again, maybe not). I guess it is past time to wrap up this TR6/R Resto Thread. I just thought I would throw in some pictures of where I am headed next.

Cheers, and Auf Wiedersehen

Ray
Posted By: D.Bachtel

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 05/13/14 8:45 am

I like where you are headed Ray, is that a 1974?

Don in Nipomo
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 05/13/14 9:53 am

Yes, Don, it is a '74, so 10 yrs younger than my TR6R. You and raf940 are at least partially to blame for all of this. I have often admired the job you did with the Zundapp and what raf940 did to that BMW project he did. So . . .thanks, I guess. wink

Anyway, this bike was done in by a roofing nail to the back tire circa 1998. That is the last license plate. It picked up the nail while leaned over in a curve on a single-track road and carrying two people. At least they didn't go down. It was brought home in a truck and parked in a garage where the main door was mostly left open for a number of years. That house was sold, and the bike was moved to it's current spot about 2012.

The rear wheel was never removed, but the tube was pulled out. The same tire is still on the rim with one bead loose and one bead outside the rim.

[Linked Image]

At least, as the saying goes, it was running when it was parked.

There is a lot of what some people call "white rust", others call it an advanced case of aluminum oxide.

[Linked Image]

Still, I think Julia was in worse shape when she came into my hands. I don't foresee any paint or plating work here, mostly heavy cleaning, polishing, flushing, lubing, inspecting, all of that sort of thing.

I've been sniffing around it for several years now, and it is finally time to get started on it.

Ray
Posted By: D.Bachtel

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 05/13/14 12:28 pm

Dump the fairing. I always wanted a 74, then I stumbled across the Zundapp.
I had a good friend with a Grenada Red 90/6. It was a super smooth runner with long legs.

Don in Nipomo
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 05/13/14 6:31 pm

"Dump the fairing" . . . Weeelll, I probably will at least put it on the shelf for now.

Having said that, there must be a reason why people bought all them. Maybe because it works well for its intended purpose? The original owner on this old Beemer rode it out to the Golden State one time, and evidently appreciated the calm air behind the fairing very much.

I want to see how the bike looks and rides when it's naked, and the original front fender comes with it too. But -- the fairing may go back on at some point. There is also a set of Krauser bags. I'd have to think that with the fairing and bags in place, it could do high mileage days almost anywhere that there is a decent road. That would be a case of function over form. I want to see what it feels like both ways.

Ray
Posted By: D.Bachtel

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 05/13/14 11:31 pm

I didn't mean throw it away but to me it just hides the tank and the character of the bike.
The first year 5 speed and last year (?) kick start was a special bike. I'm envious of such a project.

I didn't notice the front fender but it's great the original came with it.
My friend (Joel) had a small "S" fairing fitted on his with the Euro bars.
Krausers on the back and a Corbin seat.
An assortment of solvents, soft brushes and a can of paste wax will turn that into a black beauty!


Don in Nipomo
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 05/14/14 12:21 am

I agree, Don. It hides the tank and the character of the bike. I have heard/read that the kickstarter is fragile on the 1974 model. The idea is to keep it in reserve for the occasion when the electric leg fails you and then use it sparingly. I have a friend who had a bike like this when new, and he remembers that the electric start always seemed to crank slowly -- but would always start. So, we'll see.

I have yet to see the original fender, but the one on the bike is flexible plastic and has sort of a mudflap shape at the bottom edge. Maybe it is supposed to do a better job of keeping road spray off the front of the engine? I don't know for sure. I'll get the original fender and a box of misc take-off stuff later this week. I don't know yet what is in the box.

I'm hoping the same thing about the cleanup.

I do have the original owner's_manual that came with the bike in 1974. It is actually a fairly complete little booklet, and in nice condition.

Ray
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 05/14/14 6:37 pm

Turns out that the fairing and front fender actually are Vetter products. I now have the original fender (also non-metallic, which is a euphamism for plastic), and the Krauser bags, all of which are pretty nice. My buddy said he used to easily haul large pizzas in one bag and a 12 pack in the other side. There is a nice little label inside one Krauser bag that says "Made in West Germany". I don't think they say that anymore since the wall came down, so this bike is starting to show its age.

I also have the original rear shocks that look to be in good condition. These are the ones with the big honking lever that goes to three different positions: One for a normal rider, Two for a fat rider with lots of luggage, and Three for riding two-up. They were removed to put on an aftermarket air suspension system.

The crate full of take-off parts turned out to be old riding lawnmover parts. I have yet to pick up the bike, but I did transfer title with no problems. I plan to replace the rear tube right where it sits, to make it a roller and then bring it home. So the beat goes on.

I guess I should quit with this non-BritBike stuff on here. It just became sort of a habit. If I start a build thread on Adventure Rider forum or on the BMW MOA site, I'll add a note here in case anyone is interested.

Meanwhile, Julia, my TR6R, about whom this thread was started, is alive and well and is now a daily rider.

Cheers!

Ray
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 01/26/15 1:39 am

Well, here I go doing what I said I wouldn't. I wasn't going to post any more BMW stuff to this thread, but I came across some interesting info in the past couple of days and thought I would tack it on here. It's actually concerning the Vetter Fairing that Don Bachtel and I were discussing in this thread last May. Regardless of how anyone feels about fairings, we all seem to like historical tidbits, so here goes.

Last year, I read that Craig Vetter is writing a book about his experiences in creating and manufacturing the Vetter Fairing. He is trying to figure out the lowest and highest serial number for each series of the Windjammer (1, 2, & 3). I checked the S/N on the fairing that was on my old BMW barn bike and found that it was 712 units higher than what he had posted for the highest Windjammer 1 S/N, so I posted the info to his forum with a picture. I never got a reply until a couple days ago. I posted again and repeated the info and asked if anyone was monitoring the site. This got Craig's attention, and we have been sending information back and forth for the past couple of days.

You may be interested in reading the back-and-forth. It turns out that I have a rather special fairing on my hands.

Click HERE to read the story. The thread is four pages long, with my part starting at post #29 on page #2. I am fxray on the Vetter forum (I had to join to post, but you don't need to join in order to read it.)

Ray
Posted By: Pete Suchawreck

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 01/29/15 9:47 am

Let us know if you post on ADV- I'm Euromad. I too have a '74. I didn't think they were anything that special desirability-wise
The original fenders are fiberglas. The kickstart is fragile- mine doesn't currently work.

It vibrates more than a 750 but less than a Brit. It does shake like a wet dog at idle, similar to my Guzzi.

The Bings are simple, the diaphragms are a PIA to seat sometimes. Check them for rot or holes. Bob's BMW and Blue Moon cycle have parts of all kinds new and used.
These bikes have oil filters!! No sludge trap to clean.
Posted By: Mr Jazzbo

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 01/30/15 9:41 pm

Hi Ray,
I can't say enough about the BMWMOA site. I've been a member for over 30 yrs. Have owned several models since my first 1979 R/65. I find myself spending way to much time reading about other problems and answers instead of getting to work on my own. The wealth of knowledge is immense and so freely given. As is here. Good luck with the project and hope to see you there.

Jim
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 02/26/15 7:30 pm

Pete and Mr Jazzbo,

Thanks to both of you for your comments. Since I got the BMW, I joined both ADVrider.com and BMWMOA.org, and today I finally started a build thread for my R90/6. Maybe it will help keep that project moving along.

I put it on ADVrider just because there seems to be more activity on there, but I do check in on the MOA site pretty regularly. The MOA site is one of those where you can't see most of the posted pictures unless you join the forum, and I think you have to join MOA before you can do that.

For anyone interested, my BMW thread is HERE

Thanks to everybody who commented on my TR6 build. It would not be a running bike without this forum! I am amazed at the number of views this thread has received, especially when there are many other builds on here that are more deserving of attention. I think it may be because I wrote this up as a rank beginner and there may be others in the same boat. The other possibility is that I used so many Triumph buzz-words that Google is sending people here no matter what they are looking for.

Cheers to you all!

Ray
Posted By: shel

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 02/26/15 7:41 pm

Your build thread has so many followers because it was so well researched, and documented. Your attention to every detail is a credit it to you. I don't comment much but I did enjoy your build.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 02/26/15 8:43 pm

Thank you Shel. I'm honored that you would say that. I've seen pictures of your bikes and they are way beyond what I could hope to do. Some of that research you mentioned involved reading your posts on the forum!
Posted By: brentandrade

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 03/23/15 8:22 am

good day to you sir, i also have a 64 bonnie, t120r , the tank is solid and not in origional paint... have you stripped the paint off of yours? god i hope not , there arent many of this year to begin with.... i also have a shortened rear fender.... dang beautiful find sir . no matter what you do it is a beautiful ride!
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 03/23/15 3:43 pm

Originally Posted By brentandrade
good day to you sir, i also have a 64 bonnie, t120r , the tank is solid and not in origional paint... have you stripped the paint off of yours? god i hope not , there arent many of this year to begin with.... i also have a shortened rear fender.... dang beautiful find sir . no matter what you do it is a beautiful ride!

Thanks for the comments. My bike is not original paint. Although it is a TR6, it had the Bonneville color scheme when I got it. The story is early in this thread. Click HERE

Ray
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 03/05/17 9:59 pm

I see there are still people looking in on this old build thread, and I still get PM's related to it from time to time. Two years ago, I put in some pictures of the BMW that I had started working on. Nothing happens fast around my place, but that bike is almost ready to attempt its first startup. I thought I'd put in some pictures as it sits now. I'll re-post those earlier ones as "befores" and sandwich in some "afters".

It was people on here that got me thinking along the Teutonic path in the first place. raf940, Jim Hultman, D.Bachtel, Mr.jazzbo, Pete Suchawreck, and others. It was this thread that started the wheels spinning in my head, and, also in that same thread, ricochetrider mentioned the Airhead section of advrider.com, so all these seeds got planted in my mind. I'm sure you guys have forgotten this long ago, but it sure made a mark on me.

[Linked Image]

Same cover, pad, and pan, after some work:

[Linked Image]

Still on original bore size, but did a hone and rings, valve job, new timing chain and both sprockets, countless new seals and rubber bits, rebuilt the Bings, new rubber on the inlet pipes, new plug wires, cables, petcocks, fuel lines, other misc, and cleaning -- lots of cleaning:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

There's a ton of work between these next two pictures -- maybe two tons!

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I removed, cleaned and polished all 80 spokes from the wheels on this bike. The plan was to blast the hubs and polish the rims and spokes, reusing all the old parts. Julia (remember the TR6R?) was sitting right there in the room while I was doing this. Her Buchanan SS spokes kept winking at me. This bike wound up getting a set of them too.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

. . . and Avon Roadriders, as I was counseled on here long ago by Stuart and others -- I am finally going to try a set:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Almost rarin' to go . . . almost. I ordered the wrong needle jets for the Bings and the right ones aren't here yet (probably tomorrow), and the master cylinder for the front brake is not back yet from a bore and sleeve operation (maybe this week).

[Linked Image]

Looking at my last post in this thread, from two years ago, I see that I said, " . . . I think Julia was in worse shape when she came into my hands. I don't foresee any paint or plating work here, mostly heavy cleaning, polishing, flushing, lubing, inspecting, all of that sort of thing."

How naive, how incredibly naive! Oh well, it has been fun, and I have learned a lot about these BMW Motorcycles. I even learned to like the way they look -- well, up to the mid 1990's or so

I did stay with original factory paint on all the parts, except that I found some original factory painted parts that were better than what I had, switching out the tank and side covers.The front fender is original to the bike, but was not on it when the bike was in the barn. Fortunately, the two previous owners had stored it all these years, so I put it back on.

Ray
Posted By: Vetterdog

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 03/06/17 1:02 am

I am absolutely drooling. Beautiful! If I ever get a shot at one of these old BMWs I will dive in unhesitatingly. Don't tell the missus!
Posted By: Triless

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 03/06/17 1:06 am

And another immaculate Raystandard bike is here! But , to me, your TR6 will be the Alpha macine in your stable !
Nice work, Ray.
Posted By: Lannis

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 03/06/17 1:49 am

I'll add my "KUDOS!" to the rest of the guys.

Well deserved; a beautiful piece of work.

Lannis
Posted By: Tridentman

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 03/06/17 1:51 am

nice one, Ray--well done!
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 03/07/17 11:15 pm

Thanks for the comments, gents. If it runs, maybe I can post some "Out and About" road pictures this summer.
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 03/08/17 6:01 am


Nice one Ray. One day when the boy can amuse himself I'll prop a pint on the gearbox of the TR6 and read through the thread properly, for now I'll have to enjoy the pictures. I'm one of those that still enjoys reading through this thread and would be a happy man if I could build a bike and document it as well as you do.

Cheers
Rod
Posted By: Triless

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 03/08/17 9:32 am

Yep, looking forward to some more "Out and About ", even if its on a" Bavarian Money Waster" ! Or is that "British Motor Wanted "?
Good on you, Ray.
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 03/08/17 2:47 pm

Originally Posted by R Moulding

Nice one Ray. One day when the boy can amuse himself I'll prop a pint on the gearbox of the TR6 and read through the thread properly, for now I'll have to enjoy the pictures. I'm one of those that still enjoys reading through this thread and would be a happy man if I could build a bike and document it as well as you do.

Cheers
Rod

Hi Rod, You document your builds very well. Reading your stories helped get me through my TR6R build, particularly the gearbox part. I also remember when you showed me what tools to buy.

Triless, Bavarian Money Waster it is for sure. Beyond the parts prices, I have built up another whole box of special tools to set next to the box of Triumph special tools. The BMW toolbox was getting too heavy to lift, so that is now spread out into yet another box. That's the killer -- once you acquire all the special tools, it almost forces you to get another crusty old bike to use them on.

I hope all is well with you.

Ray
Posted By: GrandPaul

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 03/08/17 3:55 pm

Dang, that's nice. Makes me miss my '80 R100RS all the more...
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 03/25/17 3:21 pm

The German bike lives again! To wrap up some things:

The master cylinder that was out getting bored and sleeved with a stainless steel liner came back, and was a true work of art:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

It checked like this wherever I tried the gauge, and the gauge is mastered at the first rev, just like here:

[Linked Image]

Thanks to the machinist who did the work:

Mark Frappier
82 Mountain View
Agawam, MA 01001
800-528-5235​


Just as I got the front brake working, one of the guys who had been there for the successful first startup on Julia happened to stop in for a look at the BMW. I took that as a good omen, so I allowed him to help me push the R90/6 up to the garage. I put in some gas and was ready to have a go with the starter button, but both Bings pissed a puddle. Both had slightly split brass stand pipes (overflow tubes) in the float bowl -- a condition for which I had neglected to check. I borrowed a pair from fellow Britbiker (and often BMW man) Lit67 the next morning, and found that one of his had the same condition. Another airhead fanatic loaned me the LH bowl off his daily rider R75/5 till I could get mine in from England (Motobins is cheapest source).

Finally, I got to thumb the electric-leg button, and this old bike started up like it had just run yesterday. (In this case, yesterday was in summer of '98, so it was in the last previous century and before the turn of the millennium!)

I did the ritual slow ride to the bottom of the street, making sure all seemed right, then turned around and blasted it up the hill. The rings must be seated, because she is not smoking a bit and the bike starts right up. I have been out running it around before I do a head re-torque and verify valve lash.

Here are some pics from around the area during the first 75 miles on the clock:

Same spot at home, where Julia sat to get the Boyer adjusted at first startup. The house across the street has sold since then, and has another family living there. Time passages:

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So, I went out to show it around to some friends, without getting too far from home:

Out at my buddy's little house on the prairie where Julia had her one and only breakdown with the Scorpion Battery failure. Although that Scorpion still leaks a bit and isn't good for running a bike, it is still holding a charge on the shelf. It worked well enough as a 12 volt source to check the lights on this BMW before it had a battery installed. The Scorpion also mustered enough amps to run the timing light for checking the BMW. Go figure!

Same trees; less wind; different season:

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Once again, same tree; different bike; different season:

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Another buddy's driveway -- the long building in the back is where this BMW took its long nap:

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Same building from the other side, with a slightly different bike:

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A little bridge over Farm Creek:

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Another little bike at the same spot for perspective. Julia has crossed that bridge many times, but she just never felt like stopping for a picture:

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There you have it. I'm loving this new 43 year old bike, and the other ones too!

Ray
Posted By: R Moulding

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 03/26/17 4:26 am


Real nice set of pictures Ray, BMW has come up really nice. Not sure I approve of Julia in a trailer though!

Rod
Posted By: TR6Ray

Re: 1964 TR6/R Resto - 03/26/17 12:46 pm

Thanks, Rod. Julia doesn't need the trailer anymore, but she hasn't come out of the basement yet. There's only so much room in the garage, and the German girl with the big jugs hanging out all over is taking up the spot where Julia used to sit.
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