BritBike Forum

mail-order LSR

Posted By: kevin roberts

mail-order LSR - 01/31/15 10:21 pm

well, i live about 170 miles from wilmington, ohio, where the ECTA has its ohio mile event. i've never raced before (on a track, anyway), but i caught the bug. i've been accumulating pieces to build a 650cc triumph for the production modified pushrod class. much of it has come through the mail, which has been an interesting and educational experience in building a motorcycle. here's where i am so far . . .

got a frame i located here in ohio on craigslist. it's a 1965 bonneville, but seems to be a carryover from 1964, judging by the bracketry. it's all that was left of a basket case bike a man had since he was 15 years old. he took it apart and stored it in his garage, when he went to look at years later it had all been stolen except for the frame and a wheel. it came with a title, of all things, so it will even be street-legal (sort of) once it's up and running:



found a motor on eBay. 1970 bonneville, the late 650 cylinder head, though not so late as to have the bolt-on carb manifolds. turns freely, but the pistons are 0.030 over and i'll have to use some closer to stock to stay legal in the 650 class. it's in reasonably good shape on the outside, though i haven't torn into it yet:



front forks were more eBay finds. these are from a 70's TR7. i wanted the disc brake front end because it gave me fairly recent fork design and i could lose the disc to get a no-brake lightweight front end without a lot of work. adapting it to the 1965 dry frame took some information, which i got from people here on britbike-- thank you, folks. what i'll have is a disc brake T150 stem and lower tree, and with some conversion bearings and spacers the new forks should bolt right onto the old frame:



the motor is a 1970, so it has the earlier of the two versions of the two-piece rocker box head bolts. but the bolts were lost in the sands of time and cost some $20 each anyway. there were other issues with the original rocker boxes, including buggered-up side holes where you used a feeler gauge that year, that needed expensive plugs anyway. rather than try to fix what the motor came with, i found a pair of very nice earlier rocker boxes at not a lot of money, and bought them:



the motor was also a four-speed. nothing wrong with that, but the five-speed box has the ratios closer together and more evenly spaced. the four-speed drops into a hole when you shift into third gear, and to keep from bogging you either have to rev the engine to the sky before the shift or build in a wider and lower power band just for that gear. i'm thinking that a five speed will let me keep the power band higher and narrower without the bogging penalty, which for a top-end machine is part of the plan. a britbike member blew up his bonneville here a while back, and i bought the entire five speed innards from his bike:



at the same time i found a box of five speed parts for sale on eBay that gave me spares for what i'd just got, and a possibility of another five speed conversion on another machine in the future:





found a perfect un-dented, un-cracked, and un-corroded oil tank:



along with a set of stock 1964 battery/oil tank mounts to use to hold it up:



and there are various other necessary pieces, some of which i've had for years:







(probably will update the shocks, though)

at this point i have enough together in one spot to put up a rolling chassis, so i can actually start tweaking this machine into what i'd like it to be by this summer. i'm planning on being at wilmington in june, as i don't think i'll have enough time to do the motor tuning by the may event, but i have a lot of motor work to get done by then.

much of this would not have been possible without this forum-- there are many people here who are willing to share a vast amount of knowledge on crossing parts, building a machine, choosing between components for specific purposes and tuning various combinations to make horsepower. much more than i can fit into my head. but the goal is to build a lightweight, high-horsepower, high-revving machine that will do more than 120 miles per hour--hopefully significantly more-- without losing the crank or shooting the pushrods through the tank.

we'll see how that works out.

in the meantime my poor old 72 T120 which went down for a simple manifold repair has been relegated to basket case status until i have more time to devote to it. i've had this one for some 38 years, though, so it's not going anywhere else:



Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/01/15 7:52 am

Kevin, good deal! Just sit back and let the Brown truck do your fetching.. Your shop certainly looks big enough grin
A lot of my LSR Triumph was built off Ebay and the classified ads on Brit Bikeand the Jalopy Journal.Then I asked a lot of questions here, guessed the rest and built the bike.
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/01/15 8:19 am

Kevin, Looks as if your off to a good start. Take your time in the mock-up phase and make sure everything feels good to you in the full tuck position. ITs not fun trying to modify things at the track especially at a 2 day event.

I plan on being at the May event if can get get off my A** and do some dyno tuning. June would be great too as there would be probably be less people there for more runs.

We need some more BSA LSR bikes, Myself and Tom are getting to be out numbered!
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/01/15 8:33 am

Chris, Hey,now it's even, two BSA'a and two Triumphs grin
I probably won't be at Ohio this year...We're going to Loring Maine in July to run on the longer track.
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/01/15 8:41 am

HB, don't forget about David and his 8 valve and theres the Trident.

Good luck at Loring, I would love to make up for the fall event but not sure if that will be doable this year. Still trying to decide if I should bring both the A10 and the new A65 or just the A65 and spend some quality time with the new machine.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/01/15 12:30 pm

My shop is pretty big, as i built it when i was a beekeeper and needed lots of storage. No bees now but still have the building. Needs heat though. Ran out of money before i got to that.

How long is the course at loring? Im planning at wilmington on gearing the machine so i run out of horsepower right at the end of the one mile run up. If i still have any oomph left after that it will be wasted.
Posted By: shel

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/01/15 12:57 pm

Well that explains all those honey boxes
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/01/15 12:58 pm

Loring has two tracks, one mile and one and a half mile. Hoping with the longer track my bike can get near 130 MPH with different gearing
At Wilmington my bike runs 4.66 overall gearing. With a 27 inch rear tire the bike runs 125 MPH right on it's power peak of 7300 rpm. My rider says the bike is just barely accelerating at the one mile mark. Half mile speed is around 117 mph. There's often a headwind at Wilmington so the speeds can be held down a bit.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/01/15 3:19 pm

Originally Posted By: shel
Well that explains all those honey boxes


Empty bee hives are great for storing basket cases too. Just not 900 of them.
Posted By: konon

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/01/15 5:33 pm

Keep us up dated on your build Kevin. Always fun to see.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/14/15 9:28 am

lots of telephone work up until now.

bought a cam from megacycle:

Quote:
510-x2 .375" 296.5° 103°/105° "R" New race profile. Best all around road-race.

Best peak horsepower. May need to trim flywheel clearance. Use racing pistons and springs.
TDC LIFT in = .174" @ 1.1 rocker ratio/with lash
Base circle diameter = .812" ex = .153"


camshafts are fairly arcane to me, so i called megacycle to see what they recommended. this 510-x2 isn't a hot-looking camshaft, on paper. the duration is moderate, at 296 (stock bonneville is 272), and the lift is also moderate, at 0.375 (stock is 0.322). they have another (the 510-95) that seemed much more radical to me, with a duration of 340 and a 0.400 lift.

jim duer came to the telephone and explained that the -x2 was a new design he was selling, which made the -95 obsolete. in spite of the numbers, he said the -95 made a lazier motor than the -x2, even though the -x2 had a wider powerband. he said if the porting is right, then the shorter duration cam would have no trouble filling the cylinders.

he also recommended 11:1 or 11.5:1 pistons to run with this cam. not a lot of those around except new old stock TT pistons, with obsolete design features.

they emphasized that this cam had to be run with their spring kit--titanium collars, and would require cutting a stock crank and guide blocks, all of which is par for the course, really. i asked about the kibblewhite beehive springs, and barbara (the other half of megacycle) explained that these springs had a very long history of development with the motor, both within megacycle and as proprietary springs in other companies such as S&W and Jomo.

they make the cam, so i listen to what they say and bought their springs. will be sending in the old tappets to be reground tomorrow.
Posted By: kommando

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/14/15 9:55 am

Quote:
found a perfect un-dented, un-cracked, and un-corroded oil tank:along with a set of stock 1964 battery/oil tank mounts to use to hold it up:


Just a heads up for you, the top mounting for a 63-65 tank are 2 vertical tabs across the bike, the later 66 onwards tank you have has 2 rings in line with the wheels on the bike, it can be adapted by adding 2 tabs at right angles. Then you get the 6 pint capacity instead of the 5 pint for the 63-65.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/14/15 10:35 am

you are quite correct, as i discovered when i tried to fit it. i didn't know that at the time.

but i found a 63-65 in reasonable shape, so maybe i have solved that problem. it is a bit smaller, though, and will need some repair to some bad brazing at the mounting tabs.



the newer one was a real beaut, tho
Posted By: DKA

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/15/15 11:32 am

Kevin, Looks like you're on the right path. Just pay attention to the details. If you get all the details right (and there are a lot of them) then the bike should be good.

I'm going to do my best to be at the May event. Are going to attend? Let's try to find each other if you are.
David
Posted By: DKA

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/15/15 11:33 am

Oh and you too Chris!:)
Posted By: kommando

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/15/15 3:32 pm

Quote:
and will need some repair to some bad brazing at the mounting tabs.


As did mine, they all have a repair here and that's why they went to the rings, your bottom mount is for 63 only and breaks off due to vibration so try to insulate it with a rubber washer or mount.
Posted By: Scottie J

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/15/15 4:50 pm

Kevin, you will want to check out http://www.mapcycle.com/map/

They specialize in British performance parts. They sell steel H-beam rods and forged pistons which you are going to need for racing LSR. I'm actually going to be buying some BSA rods and pistons for my Enfield from them when I finally build the performance motor for that. Also, if you haven't already, check out the LSR forum at www.landracing.com/forum Some very helpful information there. Just look out for this guy that goes by bak189, he's a know it all with a big mouth and attitude to match. Just ignore him, he's done nothing but trash my Enfield/Indian build since I joined on there. The other people are very helpful and knowledgeable tho, quite a few Beezers and Triumphs being built on there too. So it could benefit you to see how they are building their bikes for some inspiration.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/15/15 5:25 pm

Originally Posted By DKA
Kevin, Looks like you're on the right path. Just pay attention to the details. If you get all the details right (and there are a lot of them) then the bike should be good.

I'm going to do my best to be at the May event. Are going to attend? Let's try to find each other if you are.
David


agghh

it's the details that are killing me. i've got a brand new set of jugs to use on this, standard bore, 71 mm. but i have to take it down to my neighborhood machinist to find out:

1) whether the bores are parallel to each other
2) whether they're the correct distance apart, given tolerances on the rod big ends
3) whether they're even at right angles to the base
4) whether they're positioned correctly over the cases
5) whether this can be corrected, if it isn't right, and what size the bores will be when that's done, so i can buy pistons . . .

i get one overbore, 0.020, before i'm out of spec for the 650 class.

i'd love to compete in may, but i'm depending on other people to finish stuff for me that takes time. if i don't have a machine ready i will certainly go there and watch.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/15/15 5:35 pm

Originally Posted By kommando
Quote:
and will need some repair to some bad brazing at the mounting tabs.


As did mine, they all have a repair here and that's why they went to the rings, your bottom mount is for 63 only and breaks off due to vibration so try to insulate it with a rubber washer or mount.


i never knew the taxonomy of triumph oil tanks was so complex until i tried to find one for this 64 frame. i just tried the newest oil tank on the frame and you're correct - - there isn't room for the more common C-shaped support bracket under the tank. but it does look like it will work, with some cushioning.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/15/15 6:25 pm

Originally Posted By Bulldog Kustoms
Kevin, you will want to check out http://www.mapcycle.com/map/

They specialize in British performance parts. They sell steel H-beam rods and forged pistons which you are going to need for racing LSR. I'm actually going to be buying some BSA rods and pistons for my Enfield from them when I finally build the performance motor for that.


hi bulldog

i had a conversation with marino at MAP the other day. i'll be buying pistons, rods, valves, and a crank from him. or maybe not pistons, as all of his are 10.5:1 and megacycle wants a higher ratio for their cam. but i hope he can help me find some, or find someone who might make some, maybe.

Quote:
Also, if you haven't already, check out the LSR forum at www.landracing.com/forum Some very helpful information there. Just look out for this guy that goes by bak189, he's a know it all with a big mouth and attitude to match. Just ignore him, he's done nothing but trash my Enfield/Indian build since I joined on there. The other people are very helpful and knowledgeable tho, quite a few Beezers and Triumphs being built on there too. So it could benefit you to see how they are building their bikes for some inspiration.


i have just joined that forum a minute ago, as speedrattle, because somebody already scooped me on kevin. i'll look for you there.

what are you doing with the indian? those were beautiful machines.
Posted By: DKA

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/15/15 7:52 pm

Bulldog,
I have been keeping up with your build threads and I felt sorry for you being smacked around on landracing.com. I think that most of the guys, including BAK, are very experienced and knowledgable. But a lot of them get their feathers ruffled when someone new comes in and announces he is going to kick ass. As time has progressed it seems that everyone including Bak has offered good friendly advise and you have used it. Now, I can't wait to watch your Enfield roar off toward the white horizon. Please make me envious of your speeds.

Kevin, listen to Bulldog. There is an ungodly amount of good information on landracing.com as well as this wonderful forum.

And remember that there is no detail small enough to not f**k up a weekend.
DA
Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/15/15 10:28 pm

Bulldog,
One of the "problems" with landracing.com is the fact that most of the people on there are experienced racers. As they have seen and done most everything and tend to offer honest but blunt advice. Sometimes, as DKA says, they ruffle feathers and if you can see past that you can learn a lot.

I'm enjoying this build and yours. I'm eager to see how they both work out and hoping to see some fast speeds.

I love the title "mail-order LSR". If I could only figure how to mail-order a few records.
Posted By: Scottie J

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/15/15 10:48 pm

Originally Posted By kevin


hi bulldog

i had a conversation with marino at MAP the other day. i'll be buying pistons, rods, valves, and a crank from him. or maybe not pistons, as all of his are 10.5:1 and megacycle wants a higher ratio for their cam. but i hope he can help me find some, or find someone who might make some, maybe.



what are you doing with the indian? those were beautiful machines.



I believe MAP does their own machining in house and I know they sell a 12:1 big bore piston, you should ask if you can get that dome on a smaller bore.

An this is what I have done with the Indian so far.




Originally Posted By DKA
Bulldog,
I have been keeping up with your build threads and I felt sorry for you being smacked around on landracing.com. I think that most of the guys, including BAK, are very experienced and knowledgable. But a lot of them get their feathers ruffled when someone new comes in and announces he is going to kick ass. As time has progressed it seems that everyone including Bak has offered good friendly advise and you have used it. Now, I can't wait to watch your Enfield roar off toward the white horizon. Please make me envious of your speeds.

Kevin, listen to Bulldog. There is an ungodly amount of good information on landracing.com as well as this wonderful forum.

And remember that there is no detail small enough to not f**k up a weekend.
DA



Originally Posted By noisy norton
Bulldog,
One of the "problems" with landracing.com is the fact that most of the people on there are experienced racers. As they have seen and done most everything and tend to offer honest but blunt advice. Sometimes, as DKA says, they ruffle feathers and if you can see past that you can learn a lot.

I'm enjoying this build and yours. I'm eager to see how they both work out and hoping to see some fast speeds.

I love the title "mail-order LSR". If I could only figure how to mail-order a few records.



I hope I didn't come across as "bashing" BAK, because he is a very knowledgeable guy and is very educated in the land speed game. I personally think his personality comes from just being an old man with an old naggy wife. grin All kidding aside, I have learned a HUGE wealth of knowledge from that forum, and is why I recommended it. It is mostly helpful knowledgeable people, but you you are going to hear things that you don't want to hear. Whether that be snide comments, or proven facts that are going to shatter your ideas of how you going to "make something work". Don't worry, I think I only get grief because I'm building an Enfield. But, I'm not like most people so why not build an underdog? smile
Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/16/15 1:39 am

You didn't come across as a Bak basher. I've had the pleasure of talking with Bak a number of times at El Mirage. His name is Bob Bakker. He's been around bikes forever and is incredibly knowledgeable. He is also honest in his opinions.

There should be no grief over an Enfield. I believe it was a double engined Enfield that was the first naked bike over 200. LSR has lots of underdogs. Somebody gets an idea that they can make particular bike go fast. I run an old Weslake speedway engine in a sidecar. Why? I want to see how fast I can make it go. When you get to Bonneville you'll find lots of underdogs.

DKA is also a mine of info on Triumphs. And I'm sure a lot of it would translate to an Enfield. As he said its all in the details.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/16/15 1:51 am

Ooh

Nice looking bike.
Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/16/15 2:06 am

Sorry Kevin. I didn't mean to go off on a tangent. I do have a question though. Will you be coming to Bonneville>
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/16/15 5:53 am

worry not.

there is no such thing as a tangent. in the end, it's all one conversation.

dunno about bonneville, though. it's never occurred to me.

maybe it should. i'm not out of money yet.
Posted By: Scottie J

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/16/15 8:10 am

It's funny. I've been riding motorcycles since I was 13, and always wanted to race at Bonneville since I was a kid and used to read about it in Chevy High Performance and other performance magazines. It wasn't until I was about 35 that I decided I wanted to do it on an old British bike. I started out with a "high hope" attitude of joining the 200mph Club my first time out. I've learned a lot since then. Now if I set a record, Awesome! If not, I still got to race. smile

I'm thinking of maybe attending The Texas Mile this year. It's only 2.5 hours away from my mom and dad's new retirement home, and I'm actually going to be down there that weekend putting on an addition the new house.
Posted By: DKA

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/16/15 11:25 am

Originally Posted By kevin
worry not.

there is no such thing as a tangent. in the end, it's all one conversation.

dunno about bonneville, though. it's never occurred to me.

maybe it should. i'm not out of money yet.


OMG you're not out of money? Will you sponsor me? I'll write your name on the side of my bike !

Hell sponsor me and I'll make bulldog and noisey put your name on their bikes too!
Posted By: Scottie J

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/16/15 11:58 am

Hahaha!
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/16/15 12:46 pm

Originally Posted By kevin
worry not.

there is no such thing as a tangent. in the end, it's all one conversation.

dunno about bonneville, though. it's never occurred to me.

maybe it should. i'm not out of money yet.


You live in Ohio? For me in western NY state Bonneville is a 5000 mile round trip... Aside from actual costs to race on the salt,I would expect the trip to cost several thousand bucks...
The Triumph I built does very well considering the somewhat "mild" race engine. Taking advise from the late Smokey Yunick...build your first racer on the mild side and with reliability in mind. Spend your time on riding technique rather than chasing phantom tuning problems ...
Posted By: DKA

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/16/15 1:58 pm

I've always had it in my mind to get a group trailer to take a bunch of east coasters out to Bonneville and split the gas. Still a 5000 mile round trip is gonna cost no matter how you do it. frown
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/16/15 2:20 pm

When I went to Bonneville in 2010, it cost $2500 in gas round trip, lodging for a week and food. You also have the save the salt fee along with registration/ entry fees and fuel. Costs for me were right around 5k with needing to buy all new gear as this was my first go at LSR. I will have to say that it was a totally awesome experience and got me hooked on LSR racing.

Hopefully in the next year or two I can make it back.

DKA, A group trailer would be a great idea but I think the trailer would need to be at least a 7'x14' for 4-5 bikes, tools and gear.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/16/15 2:38 pm

Im not out of money only because i havent yet paid for everything. Once i do that ill have to face up to reality.

On the salt, i was looking several seasons ahead.

HB, the biggest part of my motor program is aimed at making it simple and strong, rather than making it fancy and radical. And as i see it, the hardest--and to me the most interesting --part about the whole thing is the tuning. There's no shortage of possibilities for making expensive mistakes, and im trying to concentrate on learning rather than winning.

But i still want to go as fast as i can.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/16/15 3:02 pm

My bike has made exactly 10 runs down the track in three meets at Ohio. The bike went faster each at each event despite the funky weather with head winds and hot and humid. Although I did some changes I do believe it was my rider getting better at keeping out of the wind, real important on naked bikes.
And as mentioned by me,a lot of dyno testing to eliminate all the bullshit tuning tips I got on the Internet grin
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/16/15 3:23 pm

The rider is superimportant. Ive chosen to lose a total of 40 pounds to get smaller and get an increase in power to weight ratio. Ive lost 16 pounds in the last 30 days.

I watched your build from the start. You did it right- start with obvious basics and then test, change, test, change, test. No substitute for that.
Posted By: DKA

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/16/15 4:38 pm

It's easier to take forty pounds off the rider than the bike, but a whole lot less fun!

A lot better for aero too!
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/16/15 7:52 pm

That's the unfortunate truth. My beer budget hasnt had a penny removed in 30 days.

But i'm taking a 24-hour recess in four more pounds. Sanity has to count for something.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/16/15 8:24 pm

Astek racing runs the fastest 650 gas Triumph. Notice he's not a tiny guy but all tucked in on a low bike. The bars position and seat says this is a modified production bike, 132 MPH.

Fast Triumph

Posted By: DKA

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/16/15 9:12 pm

Gad, I'm envious. His records are listed as A/VG, A/PG, APS/VG.

Removing the gas tank from its normal location is a big aero plus. I believe that Alp's is located at the down tubes. He can get right down to about 2" above his motor. Here the shot I love the best.
[img:left][/img]

Kevin, You got rule books? I can send you last years if needed.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/16/15 10:38 pm

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
Astek racing runs the fastest 650 gas Triumph. Notice he's not a tiny guy but all tucked in on a low bike. The bars position and seat says this is a modified production bike, 132 MPH.


he's changing his riding position by moving the pegs:





don't know whether these^^^ are the same machine.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/16/15 10:44 pm

Originally Posted By DKA

Kevin, You got rule books? I can send you last years if needed.


i have the new ECTA rule book, david.

how much do the rules vary between associations?
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/17/15 7:22 am

Originally Posted By kevin
Originally Posted By DKA

Kevin, You got rule books? I can send you last years if needed.


i have the new ECTA rule book, david.

how much do the rules vary between associations?



There's almost no variation in rules by the SCTA, ECTA and the Loring Timing Association. However at El Mirage there's no modified production class.
Modified production can vary from Alp's bike shown above that are pure race bikes with custom fuel tanks and no kick starter to something like Chris Blown Income's BSA that's more or less a street bike. Mine is somewhere in between but all Triumph and has seen a little street riding.
Alp's machines are so successful because of his attention to details and refinement.
Posted By: Scottie J

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/17/15 7:52 am

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
Originally Posted By kevin
Originally Posted By DKA

Kevin, You got rule books? I can send you last years if needed.


i have the new ECTA rule book, david.

how much do the rules vary between associations?



There's almost no variation in rules by the SCTA, ECTA and the Loring Timing Association. However at El Mirage there's no modified production class.
Modified production can vary from Alp's bike shown above that are pure race bikes with custom fuel tanks and no kick starter to something like Chris Blown Income's BSA that's more or less a street bike. Mine is somewhere in between but all Triumph and has seen a little street riding.


This is where I was unsure of what exactly I wanted to build. Originally, I was going to build an all-out race bike. But after coming to the realization that I don't have a budget for an all-out race bike, and the fact that I didn't want to ONLY do LSR, I decided to settle in between. So I went with a traditional cafe racer build, still sporty and stylish, still street legal, and capable of competing on any track (whether 1/4 mile, road race or LSR) by removing the taillight and headlight by a couple of bolts. I think when I finally build a dedicated LSR bike, it will be a custom chassis, possibly a featherbed frame.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/17/15 9:17 am

See, that's where my build makes for simpler decisions. I dont need my own machine to do anything but go flat out at high speed in a straight line for about one minute. So all my decisions can focus on that, and i dont have to figure out compromises or balance opposing needs. I dont need the machine to be streetable, or to do well in the quarter, or to handle turns and twisties. It doesnt even need to have more bottom end than necessary to get up into the powerband as quickly as possible and stay there during gear changes.

Its the focus thats fascinating to me-- coming up with a combination that all works together, and then learning enough about how it works to be able to fine tune the edge every time it goes out.

Having said all that, the frame came with a title, so ill have lights and a license tag on it. Really the only purpose of a headlight shell is to sneak in some legal aerodynamics ahead of the rider.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/17/15 9:52 am

Modified Production rules other than safety are quite simple.The frame has to be same manufacturer as engine with some modifications allowed, the bars and seat can't be lower than top of tires unless originally equipped differently... Vintage class is similar...
I chose an OIF to eliminate the oil tanks...But had problems with oil leaks from fractures on two frames grin I lowered the bike two inches, modified the seat rails closer together, home built cafe racer type seat rear set foot pegs and clip ons.
I got busted last year at Ohio for having the handlebars too low...The tech inspector made me raise them while he watched.
Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/18/15 1:09 am

When the SCTA brought in the same frame and engine manufacturer rule I was really teed off. I had been running A at El Mirage but planned to go to Bonneville and run M. A bone stock featherbed complete with 19" wheels and an ancient Weslake pushrod 500. had to run in special construction. I can understand why it was introduced but I sure didn't like it. Still the Weslake managed a record 129.917 on gas.

The headlight is a good idea. Fills the gap between the forks and help punch a hole in the air. I probably sound like a stuck record but drag is the absolute killer on small capacity engines. The more you can get out of the air stream and the slicker you can make it the faster you will go.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/18/15 7:45 am

Our bike ran it's second Ohio meet with head and tail light . The bike went about 2 mph faster...But I had made exhaust changes also so who knows.
This is how the front looked when it ran 125 mph with gauges and the Pazon ECU mounted up front..

Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/18/15 8:20 pm

i'm trying to figure out how to instrument the machine with an AF gauge and a datalogger, at least. the innovate instruments come with vast loops of cable that apparently can't easily be shortened, and so would end up as huge wads of wire tied up and shaking in the airstream, or folded back and forth in bundles under the tank.

AEM makes similar instruments but offers 18-inch cabling options for hooking them up. some of it could be stored inside the headlamp shell to try to streamline the electrics. i've got to figure out how to make all this fit with the smallest wind shadow.
Posted By: DKA

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/18/15 9:16 pm

Kevin, There have been many threads on this and Landracing.com about aerodynamics. The number 1 thought is "It's not how you enter the air, it's how you leave it." There may be a some amount of drag created by cables and junk at the front but it is rather small compared to your calves, thighs, butt, back, arms and helmet. Not to mention drag caused by the spinning rear wheel. I would love to see the run numbers of someone who made every other run with a headlight and the others without all weekend. I'm not convinced that the average speed of the runs with the headlight would be appreciably higher than those without. (I'm always subject to being wrong and my wife never lets me hide from that fact). At 60 mph you're already making a bow wave and it just gets stronger and further out the faster you go. (Think of a snow plow) "Frontal area" the big bow wave producer, is the total height and width of a rider and bike, not the shape of the things in front of the rider. And the spinning front wheel does all sorts of weird things to the air. So, wrap the long wires up against the down tubes and get as skinny and low down as you can.

The LM-2 handheld unit doesn't work with a bike with electronic ignition. RF scrambles the screen. I use their recorder and bring a little laptop.
Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/18/15 10:30 pm

David has a very valid point. All the "junk" creates drag. What happens behind you is as important as what the front does. I found the headlight added about 1 mph to my Norton and a fairing added about 6-7 mph. This is an old video but well worth a look. Very interesting to note that a round has nine times the drag of an airfoil.

http://youtu.be/ftq8jTQ8ANE
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/18/15 11:34 pm

just some benchmark shots as i go through this 1970 motor.

it turned easily sitting on the bench, but when i tried to lift the jugs off it got tight and i had to tap it free. the left cylinder illustrates why:



i'm not going to be putting any of this back in, so it's academic, really, but it gives a heads-up as to what else i'm going to find behind the cases.

the PO was also a lover of silicon seal in engine assembly-- he had big globs of it all over the base instead of a base gasket. so much of it that he had filled most of the exhaust cam oilway with it as he put the motor together:



the primary cover was packed with crud, some of it from the disintegrated plastic engine sprocket oiling tube, but mostly just neglect:



he was pretty ham-handed on the clutch as well. all three of the clutch T-nuts were backed out nearly to the primary cover, because he'd been using a big slot screwdriver to tighten them. hard to see here, but when he ran out of slot, he finished up by tightening them with a pair of pliers:



one of those square-headed pins has been rounded-off behind the clutch hub, and i had to dremel the nut off and clip the pin with a pair of bolt cutters. i ran out of heat before i took the clutch center out. it's 11 degrees F out here and all i have for heat in the shop is a propane burner that i more or less stand on top of.

the engine sprocket and clutch basket teeth are both okay, but the basket has too much wear from the plate tangs. the PO had been in there, though, because the tangs on the plates were all undersize but not mushroomed, so he'd filed them square again to keep them from sticking.

no evidence of a blow-up anywhere, though. just an old bike that didn't get a lot of care.

more to come.

Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/19/15 12:04 am

Originally Posted By DKA
Kevin, There have been many threads on this and Landracing.com about aerodynamics. The number 1 thought is "It's not how you enter the air, it's how you leave it."


that's true. there isn't any wiggle in the rules for streamlining, though-- all you can do is extend the seat three inches back of the tire, and that's not much to close the air back up. i'm wondering how much a more stretched-out riding position might work better than the tightened-up crouch, though. dunno. time for the spotlight, i guess.

Originally Posted By DKA
The LM-2 handheld unit doesn't work with a bike with electronic ignition. RF scrambles the screen. I use their recorder and bring a little laptop.


by "recorder" do you mean their "pocket logger?" tom hasn't got that to work correctly on his B50, but that's the sort of device i'm looking for.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/19/15 12:09 am

Originally Posted By noisy norton
David has a very valid point. All the "junk" creates drag. What happens behind you is as important as what the front does. I found the headlight added about 1 mph to my Norton and a fairing added about 6-7 mph. This is an old video but well worth a look. Very interesting to note that a round has nine times the drag of an airfoil.


that was fascinating. the observation about the old biplane wires makes me wonder about the fork tubes, frame tubes, even the wheel spokes. or cable controls on the bars.

if i clench my butt real tight maybe i can duplicate a narrowing airfoil taper.
Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/19/15 1:17 am

I found it amazing and fascinating. It makes you think of all the bits and pieces that can slow you down and where you can hide them out of the wind. I was building a new platform for the sidecar when I first saw it. I had just made up the new struts. 1 1/8 round tubing, I promptly went out and turned them into "sort of" airfoils. They aren't perfect airfoils but I figure they are better than round. I did learn one thing about tucking in. Getting your back as flat as possible helps a huge amount. Look at Alp's photo.

Maybe you could duct tape your butt into nice taper before you put your leathers on?
Posted By: kommando

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/19/15 6:48 am

Quote:
the PO was also a lover of silicon seal in engine assembly-- he had big globs of it all over the base instead of a base gasket. so much of it that he had filled most of the exhaust cam oilway with it as he put the motor together:


As your motor is a 70 model year it should have the nitrided cams, so no need for a dedicated oil feed to the exhaust cam. You can save all your oil pressure for the big ends.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/19/15 9:17 am

Looking at the photo of Alp on the world's fastest 650 naked Triumph ,he's all squeezed up tight with elbows and knees out of the wind. He isn't stretched out in the classic Rollie Free flying man ....
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/19/15 10:00 am

Originally Posted By kommando

As your motor is a 70 model year it should have the nitrided cams, so no need for a dedicated oil feed to the exhaust cam. You can save all your oil pressure for the big ends.


i'll put a plug in that hole. i did that on my old street bike when i put a morgo on it, because the morgo cylinders didn't have a drillway, and i had new hardened cams anyway.

the little red oil pressure light up on the headlamp shell had always flickered at idle when the engine was warm, but i haven't seen it since unless the engine is stopped.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/19/15 10:08 am

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
Looking at the photo of Alp on the world's fastest 650 naked Triumph ,he's all squeezed up tight with elbows and knees out of the wind. He isn't stretched out in the classic Rollie Free flying man ....


hard to argue with 139 mph on the salt, you know.

whatever it looks like, he's doing it right.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/19/15 11:32 am

Originally Posted By kevin
Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
Looking at the photo of Alp on the world's fastest 650 naked Triumph ,he's all squeezed up tight with elbows and knees out of the wind. He isn't stretched out in the classic Rollie Free flying man ....


hard to argue with 139 mph on the salt, you know.

whatever it looks like, he's doing it right.



I've talked to ALP via email several times and on bike forums... and asked what's inside the engine...He says the usual stuff and working on getting the air in and out of the engine.....No details but he has said the engine runs at 8000 plus RPM. I figure his bike is 60-65 HP at the rear wheel.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/19/15 12:17 pm

here's another view, from his T-shirt



lots of thought gone into a small wind shadow. he can raise and lower the rear of the frame about 5 inches, he's got his brake lever turned inwards, he runs with no instruments on this one, not even a tach.

that must be oil there on the front down tubes. i can't figure out his fuel tanks. both have vents, but only the one on the right has a cap (taped shut).

there's another foot control of some kind behind the peg, unless it's just a footrest.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/19/15 12:22 pm

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
No details but he has said the engine runs at 8000 plus RPM. I figure his bike is 60-65 HP at the rear wheel.


marino at MAP says a billet crank with titanium valves can run 8500 rpm without valve float.
Posted By: Rickman

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/19/15 12:23 pm

A heel operated rear brake???
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/19/15 12:28 pm

that's got to be it. i was looking at the clutch lever up front and thought it was attached on the right clip on.
Posted By: Rickman

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/19/15 12:31 pm

It also looks like he placed a _LOT_ of leverage against it! It's bent!
Posted By: DKA

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/19/15 1:29 pm

Originally Posted By kevin
Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
Astek racing runs the fastest 650 gas Triumph. Notice he's not a tiny guy but all tucked in on a low bike. The bars position and seat says this is a modified production bike, 132 MPH.


he's changing his riding position by moving the pegs:





don't know whether these^^^ are the same machine.


[quote=kevin]here's another view, from his T-shirt



lots of thought gone into a small wind shadow. he can raise and lower the rear of the frame about 5 inches, he's got his brake lever turned inwards, he runs with no instruments on this one, not even a tach.

that must be oil there on the front down tubes. i can't figure out his fuel tanks. both have vents, but only the one on the right has a cap (taped shut).


His bike has seen quite an evolution.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/19/15 1:41 pm

Originally Posted By kevin
Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
No details but he has said the engine runs at 8000 plus RPM. I figure his bike is 60-65 HP at the rear wheel.


marino at MAP says a billet crank with titanium valves can run 8500 rpm without valve float.


Alp says he uses NOS Triumph cranks(s) The bike pictured has a billet cylinder. He also used a Morris Magneto while we all feel the need to use electronic ignition.And the very expensive Amal GP carbs...
However winning is not just who has the most trick parts, it's preparation, proper tuning and a skilled rider.
Posted By: DKA

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/19/15 3:15 pm

"However winning is not just who has the most trick parts, it's preparation, proper tuning and a skilled rider."

Yeah, what he said.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/19/15 3:26 pm

i'd be willing to bet that if you gave him the second-fastest motorcycle to ride that he would win on that one too.

i had no idea that NOS cranks were even still around. does he need original-type carbs to run in any of the classes he competes in? if he does, and he has them working right, there would be no reason to change.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/19/15 3:44 pm

more surprises. what is wrong with this picture:



.
.
.
.
.
.



it's what happens when you try to run the engine after you forgot to put that little aluminum guide block back in the oil pump. the crank on the timing gear nut was unmarred, so he didn't try it for long.



more critical was that the nose of the timing side crankshaft looks like it had been damaged, through . . . hammering? and had been pretty crudely dressed with a hand file. i need to look at it in better light, but it's not replaceable like the threaded stud in the other end.

the oil dripping out of the timing chest is red. did he fill the motor with ATF? that's only about 10W-20.
Posted By: DKA

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/19/15 3:45 pm

Only "Production" classes require original carbs. A and M don't have restricitons except for Vintage classes that have to run period equipment.
Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/19/15 6:02 pm

Originally Posted By kevin


lots of thought gone into a small wind shadow.


I was fortunate to be doing patrol when Alp ran 139. I was past the finish and he he stopped by my spot. It gave me a chance to have a close look at it. It is exquisitely compact. Alp put a lot of effort into getting as much as he could out of the wind. Photos don't really do it justice. He is proof that you can go very fast on an unstreamlind bike

Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/19/15 6:37 pm

i think he's got concentrics on that one:

Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/19/15 7:53 pm

I hadn't noticed that before. I guess that eliminates the GPs as the speed secret. LOL!
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/19/15 7:58 pm

That's the iron head engine....The other engine has the billet cylinder, alloy head and GP carbs.
Posted By: kommando

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/20/15 6:46 am

Quote:
the oil dripping out of the timing chest is red. did he fill the motor with ATF? that's only about 10W-20.


Hopefully the VDOP's blood (Very Dumb Previous Owner cry )
Posted By: quinten

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/20/15 4:33 pm


Some interesting streamlining ideas from a different speed sport
, no horse power just gravity .
Current record is 156.83 mph
Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/20/15 11:02 pm

Some good streamlining there. I believe the airfoils behind the legs is not allowed by the SCTA. I believe someone showed up with airfoils behind the legs and they said no. I've often wondered if you were to put one of those shells over an approved helmet what would they say? SCTA rules state that if you use a streamlined hump on your leathers you will run in partial streamlining even if your bike is naked.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/21/15 1:29 am

Whats that slippery ski suit made of? Bike leathers are covered in stitched seams and wrinkles that cant do otherwise than catch the air.

but here's a "rain suit" to go over your leathers. it isn't clear to me whether the main purpose of this rainsuit is to waterproof the leathers or to make you more slippery while staying within the rules.

Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/21/15 12:49 pm

The rules are strict about leather rider's protection..Leather only except for a leather or cloth cape that's allowed in partially streamlined classes only. Very expensive riding leathers can be like a second skin....
Posted By: konon

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/21/15 3:46 pm

Can Zippers in your leathers be made of nylon in classes under 175 mph , or do they need to be made of metal in all classes ?
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/21/15 4:57 pm

Quote:
7.C.2

Leathers certified by a recognized manufacturer to be suitable for the application are required. One-piece suits or two-piece suits zippered together are allowed. Required over 175 MPH: One-piece leathers or two-piece leathers with full (270 degrees) zipper. Also required over 175 MPH: Special protective armor, as produced by a recognized manufacturer, with minimum coverage at elbows, nees, shoulders, hips, and back. Undergarments having the required armor coverage are acceptable, when the undergarment is worn with the required leather suit.


that's all it says
Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/24/15 1:17 am

Here's a close up of Alp's engine. Wonderful workmanship. And gets as much as possible out of the wind,

Posted By: quinten

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/24/15 2:14 am


Why aren't the headers , on these naked bikes , tucked in closer to the frame ?

.
Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/25/15 1:31 am

If you look close Alp has those pipes tucked in about as far as they will go.
Posted By: Scottie J

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/25/15 7:17 am

There is a hell of a lot more to that chassis up close than when you look at it from 20' away. Very clean and nice.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/25/15 9:14 am

Oh yeah, that's a dedicated racing machine not a modified production bike and built to a high standard.. Alp designed and made the frame and even the exhaust pipes.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/25/15 10:42 am

different philosophical approach there. or perhaps a more extreme interpretation of a common philosophy.
Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/25/15 4:51 pm

The beauty of LSR rules is they leave you to interpret them. "A" (special construction) give you a huge leeway to build what you dream. Alp read the rules and built accordingly. And he did a hell of a job. He has raised the bar considerably. I read the rules and built my sidecar the way I read them.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/25/15 5:05 pm

are the rules for the SCTA/BNI available online? i can't find them on their website.

not that the ECTA rulebook is online either.
Posted By: DKA

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/25/15 5:30 pm

Yes Bill, you were quite creative in you side car build. It impressed me a lot along with Alp's work.

Kevin, I have both rule books from last year that I will give you. The rules for 2015 have not changed in any way to affect you. Dan posted the changes on the Landracing.com home pages just last week. The new rulebooks won't come out for another month or so.

My email is mactem@mebtel.net if you want them.
David
Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/25/15 5:38 pm

David, At the last club meeting we were told the 2015 rule book is at the printer and scheduled to be available March 1. That is subject to change if they find a problem. But usually they are accurate in their dates.

Alp's work is way ahead of my angle grinder engineering.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/25/15 5:47 pm

Originally Posted By noisy norton


Alp's work is way ahead of my angle grinder engineering.


But the angle grinder has gotten you multiple class records grin
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/25/15 6:54 pm

Originally Posted By DKA

My email is mactem@mebtel.net if you want them.
David


woo yes and thank you

i'm at k.d.roberts@hotmail.com

online copies?
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/25/15 7:02 pm

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
Alp designed and made the frame and even the exhaust pipes.


i still can't figure out his fuel tanks. both have vents, but only one seems to have a filler cap and some sort of coaxial petcock. the other has no cap and no petcock.

why does he have them both on the right side, instead of one on each side of the machine? is one gravity feeding the other? without a filler cap?

confused
Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/25/15 7:39 pm

Originally Posted By kevin
Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
Alp designed and made the frame and even the exhaust pipes.


i still can't figure out his fuel tanks. both have vents, but only one seems to have a filler cap and some sort of coaxial petcock. the other has no cap and no petcock.

why does he have them both on the right side, instead of one on each side of the machine? is one gravity feeding the other? without a filler cap?

confused


I haven't got the answer. Here's the other side. No top tank. Maybe he figured he needed more fuel. I'll have to ask him at the May El Mirage.

Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/25/15 9:56 pm

I would say both tanks are on the right side so the rider can tuck is head in closer back bone which gives a more streamlined effect.
Posted By: koncretekid

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/26/15 5:20 pm

Alp has both tanks on the right because he rides with his head on the left. I see he has lengthened his tanks from last year. I expect to see that "G" changed to an "F" in the near future, and he'll need more of it!
Tom
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/03/15 7:57 pm

didn't split the cases until today, as i was waiting on a new cam gear puller. my old one unaccountably came up with missing parts (i have five kids who think a tool box is a treasure chest). when i did i discovered that the previous owner had misplaced the crank pinion half-moon key behind the gear when he put the motor together:



it ended up sandwiched between the gear and the TS main bearing. here you can also see where he filed the nose of the crank trying to repair the damage he inflicted hammering on it to get the cases apart. i could probably have the crank nose ground undersize and then fit an undersize seal in the timing cover, but i've sprung for a steel crank from MAP instead. so this will go on the shelf until the next project, maybe. look at all that silicone. it was everywhere:



new cams arrived from megacycle. these are the X2 grind for triumphs, with 296 degrees duration and 0.375 lift. not the hottest-appearing cam in their catalog, but the one they recommended to me when i asked them for a guideline for a top-end powerband:



they come with the R/D spring kit, too, with titanium collars. no keepers, so i'm guessing they recommend the steel triumph ones. years ago i bought alloy collars and keepers from MAP for my street T120, though, and they've worked fine. the springs i used then were PM, i think at 240 pounds. pretty fierce. i don't know what these run, but i'm following megacycle's recommendations on the right pieces to use with their cam. they were pretty adamant:



tomorrow i'll clean up the cases and see about taking them to my machinist to have the new cam bearings installed and reamed. i've got a new set of jugs too, and i'll have him check to see what kind of alignment issues there are with the bores, if any. the old ones on the motor were 0.030 over, at 663 too big to run in the 650 class, even if they hadn't been siezed. once i know how much metal might have to be removed to get them to straighten up, i'll know what pistons to buy. megacycle wants 11 or 11.5 to 1 for their cam, so i don't know yet here to find any that tall. i'll also get him to mill out the cases and inner gear box cover to let me replace the four-speed clusters with the five-speed ones i have sitting in a box in the shop.

motor's all apart now, just waiting on machining and new parts. luckily there doesn't seem to be any more damage to find.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/04/15 7:55 am

Your cases show typical overuse of RTV sealer by some well meaning mechanic.....
It's generally best to go with spring pressures recommended by the cam grinder.
The Sifon 390 cam in my bike with .355 lobe lift required trimming about .020 off the flywheel for proper clearance recommended by John Healy. Some guys said .020 is ok,.040 sure sounds safer...
Man,all you guys are running radial cams compared to my taxi cab engine... grin
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/04/15 12:47 pm


HB, i'm a believer in listening to people who know more than me about stuff. i don't always do what they say, but i always listen. sometimes what i learn is that i should have done what they said.

especially on heads and cams. leo goff in tennessee has my cylinder head right now. he's going to be working on the ports and valves. he said he thought either the X2 or the X75 cam would work best, and said to call megacycle and listen to what they said.

so i did, and this is the mildest-appearing competition cam in the megacycle catalog. jim duer there explained that the X95 cam was comparatively obsolete, and the X75 cam was a special-purpose unit for something besides LSR applications (didn't pursue that). both of those are pretty hot cams, on paper. i don't want to over-cam this machine, but on the other hand i'm trying to set it up as a maximum-effort motor, within my limits on experience and budget. i asked marino at MAP about trimming his billet cranks for cam clearance, and he said it wasn't necessary. i've never seen one, though, so i'll double check with him as we go. he's got another batch of cranks coming out in about a month, and i've sent him a deposit for one.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/04/15 2:03 pm

The X2 cam has more lift but about the same duration as the Sifton 390...It should be a good one. To be honest I saw the slightly used Sifton cams on Ebay, they didn't sell, I made an offer and got them for a nice price...
For pistons, you might look at the MAP forged tight quench 10.5 compression pitons...The dome is wider and flatter than others and won't mess up flame travel like a tradition high dome...I was impressed with the quality and light weight.Comes with very high quality nodular rings
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/04/15 2:41 pm

i'll use the MAP rods for sure, but i don't know what to do about pistons yet. megacycle recommends 11 or 11.5 to 1 for this camshaft, and MAP doesn't routinely sell that high a compression ratio anymore, although they did for years. 11.5 to 1 isn't as bad as it sounds when you remember that the hot cam will generally be operating at fairly crummy volumetric efficiency except at higher rpms. i'm planning on a dual-plug ignition system, which i'm hoping will compensate for the high piston dome. it doesn't cost a lot to have the head drilled for extra plugs (you've done this, so you know) and pazon makes a smart fire system specifically to ignite a four-plug head.

i really like the MAP stuff, and it was Marino who told me to first figure out how big a bore i'd have left in my cylinders after getting them lined up and squared with the cases, and then to worry about pistons. i'm hoping i can find something in that ratio with some sort of modern squish band-- all the NOS TT120 pistons mostly look like they just fill up the combustion chamber like a melon in a mixing bowl.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/04/15 6:58 pm

Venolia Piston will make just about anything.I have dealt with them but be advised they can be short on words so be sure you get every minute detail worked out. I even sent them a plaster cast of the combustion chamber on a vintage hot rod engine...It came out just fine....
A respected engine shop said MAP pistons are made by Ross according to the batch numbers stamped on the piston. Marino might do finish details...If the piston design isn't exclusive property of MAP, Ross might make you some in a higher ratio. Ross usually only sells four pistons minimum directly to a customer.
And Arias does make some bike Pistons...Wiseco used to have forged Triumph piston...
Alp's bike engines appear not to use dual plugs... I believe he runs about 11-1 on gas...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/04/15 11:36 pm

i'd like to be able to find an appropriate off-the-shelf piston, but i'm willing to have them cut if that's the only way to do it. off-the-shelf fringe parts are getting less available as the years go by on our stuff, but i imagine piston people stash away all their old patterns and specs, just like cam grinders do. i'll be asking for help when the time comes. i've had machining done on my existing pistons before, but specifying them from scratch is new to me.

the dual plug isn't a horsepower thing. for me it's mostly a way to keep horsepower made somewhere else from detonating the motor to bits. if you're sharp and understand a lot about airflow manipulation, advance curves, and carburation, then you can do without it, i'm sure. but i'm looking for a way to make the motor forgiving of my mistakes while i tune it. same with a steel crank-- there's no horsepower coming from the crank itself, but the extra margin of strength should make a difference in holding it together if i spin it too fast or push it too hard.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/05/15 12:00 am

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
. . . but be advised they can be short on words so be sure you get every minute detail worked out. . .


lol

ever talked with barb at megacycle?

have everything ready before you dial. she doesn't let you waste any time.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/05/15 7:32 am

Originally Posted By kevin

the dual plug isn't a horsepower thing. for me it's mostly a way to keep horsepower made somewhere else from detonating the motor to bits.



That's what racing gas is for...I use VP C12, 107 octane leaded,12 bucks a gallon, cheap insurance and a far more consistent product than pump gas
But still the dual plugs are a good idea....

The 10.5 MAP off the shelf piston might be one HP less than the same piston with 11-1...Or it might be nothing or a few HP more depending on engine tune and many other factors...
I built my engine to the money available...Reliability being most important... about 3 grand ready to run..
And I have done some hillbilly stuff to the engine...When the engine was disassembled for inspection there was evidence of very slight intake valve to piston contact from the rider over revving the engine. Without removing the pistons from the rods I made the valve pockets deeper with a hand held Dremel tool..The valves have never seen a feeler gauge, take out the lash, back off the adjuster about 1/8 turn,good enough. I have no idea what the timing is, it was adjusted for best power on the dyno without using a strobe. At the last two track meets I didn't change jetting for temperature variations...
Other than gearing changes i just leave the bike as is..
A fastidious tuner might be able to squeeze a bit more power..
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/05/15 10:34 am

i use the 110 leaded premium from the station down by the highway. apparently there's enough drag racers around here that they keep a tank of it year-round. god forbid i should need it in anything bigger than a bike tank.

compression ratios are problematic. MAP used to recommend never going higher than 10 to 1, but with their modern pistons they've raised their bar a half-point. and it can't ever be looked at by itself. remember the old edelbrock SP2P intake manifolds? i put one on a small block chevy in my 1950 hudson and then i couldn't make it run unless the timing was retarded all the way back to TDC. it would crackle like castanets whenever i opened the throttle at any rpm. in that case the breathing had improved so much that even the stock compression ratio was too high. not a successful change.

i'm trying for a combination where the ports, cam, piston tops, and ignition all work together in a way that will make power and give me a margin for error. and i'm sort of obsessive, too. and this is really an education for me, which is mostly why i'm doing it.

i wouldn't be too modest about your tuning, by the way. the machine wins, and it still gets better whenever you mess with it. i'm spending time on planning for the tuning on mine, and i don't have much to do in my free time anyway:

Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/05/15 10:44 am

We got the same shit and zero F cold for the last month...We got friends in NC and we're seriously considering bailing out of NY..
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/05/15 12:03 pm

i can't even get out of my house. we have a submarine bridge to the south under about a foot of water right now, and a ridge to the north about to feet deep, steep and uphill. we don't get plowed out here until a day or to after any snowfall, if at all.

shop work today, i guess.
Posted By: DKA

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/05/15 12:23 pm

HB, I'm in the middle of NC and we had 8" of snow last week. My yard looked just like Kevin's. Yesterday was 75 (everyone was smiling) and tonight will be 20. Slowly working up to mid 50s by middle of next week. By the end of March there will be more warm spells than cold, by end of April there will be only a cold spell every once in a while. While from Va. north to Boston gets snow today, we just get cold rain. Can't decide which is better. The wrenches feel just as cold today as they did when it snowed last week!

Kevin: me last year dismantling my T 140

[img:left][/img]
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/05/15 1:29 pm

This is a tough winter in the east....On top of the crappy weather in NY we have the highest property and gas taxes,rusted cars and decaying infrastructure....We're retired and live in a rural area...We can bring down out hillbilly ways and chickens and get along just fine .... grin
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/05/15 2:25 pm

ha

i've been tempted more than once to solve difficult mechanical issues with lethal force. i try to put my tools down and back carefully away when i feel it coming on.

HB, come out here. no property taxes to speak of (no services either), no cars at all for lots of folks (horses, instead), no infrastructure to speak of to worry about.

but people leave you alone, there's no such thing as building codes in the country, the donkey and the dogs sleep in the road, and the chickens go where they want. they're laying about half-time right now.

good roads for curves, but not a straight flat one for tuning for miles and miles.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/05/15 3:21 pm

Kevin,where do you live? We live on 10 acres outside of a small town east of Rochester NY. Our place is worth about 200 grand and the property taxes are about $4300 a year even with my veterans discount. Not much in the way of services here other than snow plowing.....
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/05/15 3:58 pm

i live in ohio, just west of wheeling, west virginia. columbus is 120 miles west, pittsburgh is 75 miles east. i was about to say no snowplows to speak of, but two just plowed down to our place, turned around, and left the way they came. our place has been the last house on the road for about 100 years now.

we moved here from california and bought 25 acres three miles from the paved road. got a good price because it was a dump with no indoor plumbing, a coal-shovel furnace for heat, and a water well dry half the year with a dead rabbit floating in it for good measure.

the dead rabbit was a real plus. it knocked about $10,000 off the price of the property. i fished it back out with a bucket and a stick, pumped the well to the bottom, and treated it with bleach. so far we've all survived.

-- i just looked. for 25 acres with a house, two animal barns, and a pretty sizeable shop, my property taxes are $1350 per year. really, it's free to me, because the coal company pays us $1500 a year for an easement for one (1) wooden power pole to a air shaft.
Posted By: DKA

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/05/15 4:56 pm

Motorcycles, broke cars and country livin. Yeehaaw can't beat it. I bought my place in '98. 21 acres and the bank wouldn't even place a value on the house! I've upgraded the house and built a workshop with all the required junk spread in the woods around it. I think the foxes ate the chickens. Coyotes are becoming more numerous and are starting to mate with the re introduced red wolves.

Last year when I needed to test my race bike I drove it down my dirt driveway to the paved road and a Sheriff's Deputy was sitting there. I pulled up to him, short pipes singing loudly, and yelled through my helmet, "I have to test my bike... don't have insurance , inspection, or license, but I won't go far". He looked at me and just said. "Well, I hope you make it back." And off I went.
Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/05/15 5:14 pm

Interesting read on C.R.s. And I don't believe for a minute David is dismantling a T140. I think he is putting it together.

When I started LSR with the Weslake in the Norton it was 13:1 comp. I later bumped it to 14:1. I was running alcohol so no worries. When I changed to gas I was nervous but a long time LSR racer said not to worry. I went to VP C12. No problems. He also told me that I'd only be going three miles so put as much compression and ignition as the engine will stand. So when I built the sidecar I followed his advice. The other thing I was told was to make sure the float is kept full at all times. Doesn't matter if you a 3/8" line to the carb. If it can't get into the bowl you'll starve. Make sure the internal holes are big enough. Sorry to see so much snow and cold back there. Almost makes me feel guilty.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/05/15 7:57 pm

And usually with a more cam the engine needs higher compression. And if you keep increasing the compression there's a point where it doesn't have much effect..I don't know where that is on a Triumph head .....maybe more dependent on the piston dome than actual compression ratio...

Sometime soon, hopefully, the bride and me are gonna look like real hillbillys with bikes,chickens, and all sorts of junk lashed onto our Jeeps as we head to a new home...Where ever that is...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/05/15 10:11 pm

http://youtu.be/NwzaxUF0k18
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/06/15 7:07 am

Yeah,those guys.....

Getting the hillbilly hauler ready for the trip, 64 year old transfer case needs some servicing. Very much off topic except for the bike lift...

I have to get busy on the race bike next month, change the rear sprocket. Then back onto the dyno to play with exhaust pipe length and timing..


Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/08/15 12:45 pm

I ve been delayed a bit waiting for new camshaft bearings to arrive from raber's, so my crankcases are still in pieces on the bench rather than at the machine shop moving forward. But the discussion of torque plates has got me thinking whether i should see about making one.

How thick ought a plate to be to stay flat against head bolt torque? the ones i see for small block chevrolets are only 1.75 inches thick, steel.
Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/09/15 1:49 am

I've been looking at the torque plate thread as well. I'm wondering about the need for one. Yea or nay. Don't know. I'd love to see measurements from a bore done with and without a plate.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/09/15 7:12 am

As mentioned in the other thread I did do measurements on a Triumph Routt 750 cylinder. I bolted as head to the bare cylinder,flipped it over and used a bore gauge. The cylinder was distorted .001 next to the bolts. Cylinder was round before the test.
This can change one way or the other when the cylinder is warmed up or when bolted to the crankcase or maybe with other cylinders.....
I didn't use a torque plate on my 650 LSR engine....
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/09/15 6:13 pm

that's a good point. i once talked to a race engine builder about torque plates, and he said he always used them when boring and honing. i asked if he'd ever thought about also running coolant through the block to mimic operating temperatures. he said, no, with leakage already down to about 1 percent, running coolant couldn't get anything measurably closer.

the glitch with that idea is that it's possible that a perfectly round bore achieved with a torque plate will consistently distort at running temperature to where it isn't perfect anymore. his assumption was that boring it perfect cold meant it would run perfect hot, and that's completely conjecture. maybe it was 1 percent leakage cold, but 5 percent leakage while running.

the easy way to tell is to bore it with the torque plate, then put the jugs in an oven with the torque plate still on it, and heat it up to operating temperature. then see how different it is hot from whatever it was cold.
Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/11/15 1:32 am

The torque plate has got me thinking. I spoke to a friend at the club meeting tonight. He runs a 350 Chevy in a roadster at El Mirage and Bonneville. I asked him his opinion on torque plates in relation to his engine. His reply sort of surprised me. He said when he bores an engine he bolts on a torque plate, bell housing and the timing chain cover. Plus he runs hot water through the block to get it to operating temp. I asked him if he felt it made a difference and he said he had no hard and fast details but why take the chance? Good point. If you have the tools, why not use them?
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/11/15 11:13 am

there was a honeybee breeder in northern california i used to know. dead now. gave him a lot of my money over the years.

his operation was one of the largest in the state- 15,000 bee hives. sold something around 250,000 pounds of bees every year, around 50,000 queens. spectacular operation.

his attention to detail was immense. if there was any management procedure, any food supplement, any modification to the structure of the hive that would add to their health and well-being and help them in the smallest way, he would do it. if it could be shown to add no more than 0.5 percent to colony numbers over the season, he would do it. and he was completely open and forthcoming about all the management techniques, all the care, all the extras.

he was always out in front. what he did was make sure that every half-percent advantage was on his side, and when you added up twenty of them, he was 10 percent ahead of everybody else.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/01/15 9:49 pm

a day in the life.

i can't wait any longer for pistons. i talk to my machine shop in ohio, who've been sitting on my cylinders for too long. i tell them to forget everything else i asked them to do. what will clean up my bores?

---they're 2.792 inches. stock is 2.794.

so i have 0.002? is that enough to make them straight?

---yes.

so i go to the piston guy in michigan. they say 71 millimeters is a go on the jugs.

---what size valve pockets do you need?

dunno yet. so i go to the port guy in tennessee. what's the biggest valves you think you'll be putting in?

---i want 1.5 inches on the exhaust and 1.660 on the intake.

so i tell the piston guy what size i need. he says, what compression ratio? so i ask the port guy, what compression ratio?

---11.75 to 1.

what? i've been assuming 11.5 was stupid high . . .

--11.75 will work.

if you say so, i guess. back to the piston guy.

he says 11.75 to 1.

---my sample is 11:1. i'll tell JE to leave metal on the top, and you can pay for it, and then i'll cut it away. and they won't make less than four pistons.

i only have two cylinders.

-- you LSR guys go through pistons pretty quick. standard bore?

i suppose. what about pipes? back to the port guy.

---1 5/8 inches, 34 inches long, 17-inch reverse cone megaphones.

i already have the megs. and nobody makes 1 5/8 pipes. they're either 1 1/2 inches, or 1 3/4 inches.

-- 1 1/2 is too small. 1 3/4 is too big. you can weld them yourself, or have them made. if somebody makes them for you they must be mandrel bent.

who does that?

---dunno. here's a link.

pipe guy in colorado:

---sure, we can do that, maybe. the pipes might not fit easily, and we might not be able to make them anyway, but send us a picture of what you want, and we'll take a look.

so stay tuned.

did i mention that the ignition people in new zealand are out of stock on rotors?

Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/01/15 11:09 pm

Unfortunately with JE you have to buy four. Don't feel bad. I have a single. Are your pistons being custom made? If not try Wiseco. Service is good.
Posted By: al jam

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/02/15 12:22 am

That looks like a lot of expencitve conversations! But by the look of it, it'll be something special when it all comes together......Brilliant.
Posted By: DKA

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/02/15 1:00 am

Look up John Noonan on Landracing.com. He sells Wossner pistons to LSR people. He can set you up.
DA
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/02/15 6:11 am

Kevin,you are allowed .020 oversize pistons for "reconditioning" even though it takes the engine very slightly over 650 CC.
The chain of command.....that's why I used one machine shop and and bought the parts myself...and fabricated everything even if it was less than perfect...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/02/15 10:41 pm

ed valicutt at E & V is cutting the pistons from blanks from JE. i'm doing all the work i can, but the pistons became a bottleneck. have to have the pistons in order to balance the crank. have to have the crank in order to fit the head clearances. have to have the head clearances in order to figure out how long to make the pushrods . . .

you get the picture.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/02/15 10:47 pm

Originally Posted By noisy norton
Unfortunately with JE you have to buy four. Don't feel bad. I have a single.


noisy, at last i've found someone worse off than me.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/09/15 3:34 pm

it's a roller!



other stuff is still on the way or being made, but we're at the assembly stage, finally.

then tuning. that will be a while.
Posted By: konon

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/10/15 8:43 am

Looking good, making progress.
Posted By: pushrod tom

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/10/15 9:16 am

Looking good! Check the rule book about handlebar/seat relationship. PRT
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/10/15 9:12 pm

i understand the bars have to be higher than the rear tire-- these look marginal, but it's easy to change. i'm purposely using a set of tarozzi clip-ons that let me adjust the up/down angle of the bars, as well as in/out. but they also bang the tank no matter where they are, and so fork stops are on order-- this frame doesn't have the fork stop pins in the lower steering head casting, but it soon will, and it appears to be good enough.

there's actually more at hand than i have pictured-- the 1963 oil tank, 1964 battery carrier (perfect fit for a tiny shoei lithium mini-battery), fibrglas rear fender, and various other components are already here in boxes and test-fitted. still have to situate the fram PH8 oil filter mount, but i may skip that for this first year.

the steering head will have a speedhut electronic tach, an AEM A/F gauge, and a triplesrule oil pressure gauge. i need the speedhut unit because it has 0-to-60 and a quarter-mile functionality. it and the A/F gauge are necessary to tune out here in the sticks (on the public road), and the pressure gauge is a failsafe to let me know when i've broken the crank (per britbike.com).

i'd like to run a manifold pressure gauge and a data logger, but for this first iteration i'm going to rely more on seat-of-the-pants testing than i'd otherwise like.

once the motor people give me my various parts back i'll start on the hard part.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/11/15 5:36 am

There you go, some progress....The tech inspectors like all metal battery trays with a secure metal strap..The Speedhut tach on my street T120/750 has a very responsive and steady needle.
Posted By: David Dunfey

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/11/15 1:32 pm

Kevin,

Congratulations on the roller! It is always good to get to the point where it looks like a bike even if the bulk of the work is to come.

Steering stops are a must. I have seen guys fail tech because the fork is hitting tubes or wire bundles before hitting the stops. It is often checked.

David
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/12/15 12:54 pm

i was of two minds about the speedhut tach. i was originally going to run a mechanical instrument and a GTech RR performance logger, because it outputs torque and horsepower curves, like the old Veypor, which is no longer available:

http://www.gtechpro.com/rr_fanatic.html.

the GTech people couldn't guarentee that the logger would work with a motorcycle electrical system, though. it has no coil lead for RPM, just a 12-volt power input, and reads RPM through AC oscillations in the wiring harness. they have a new one coming out that they say solves those problems, but it's been delayed since december.

the speedhut unit is a tach/speedo with a GPS functionality that lets it measure elapsed speed and distance, like the GTech, so with a flat road somewhere i can get numbers to dial in some of the tuning parameters. that's the plan, anyway.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/13/15 7:50 pm

i'm using an engine destined for another project to line things up temporarily while the real motor is in pieces scattered in various machine shops.



the TR7 forks in combination with a T150 lower triple clamp ended up fitting the 1964 frame. there were some alignment issues, but they were not insurmountable.



the rear mudguard is a bobbed piece from glass from the past, and will help keep some of the dirt from the rear wheel out of the carb throats. it fits into the stock brackets, but i'll have to cushion it with some thick rubber grommets. the rubber doughnuts for the fibrglas seat are the centers out of expandable freeze plugs



the little shoei lithium battery weighs essentially nothing, and is tiny. this is it next to the AGM i use in my 72 T120.



plus, it fits right into the 1964 battery carrier front, back, left, and right, and has some extra room on the top.



this dummy motor is interesting in its own right. it originally had a belt drive, which the seller took off to sell separately, apparently with a ventilated cover. what came with it are a 67 primary cover and some primary drive parts, 30mm aluminum spigots for aftermarket carbs, a boyer ignition and coil, and very good rocker boxes with distance pieces instead of the thackery washers. no friction in the movement at all, and very little free play. there are two part numbers visible in the rocker arms, though, so i'll need to go through them to see just exactly what i have.


Posted By: DKA

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/13/15 9:51 pm

Kevin, your project is looking great. At the meet, make sure that the battery voltage is 12-13 volts before you get to the start line, not just at 8 volts where the Shorai charger maintains it. Also at high compression ratios the two cylinders need to have similar resistance all the way to the plug ends or the most spark always goes to the least resistant. I have a sign in my shop that says "90% of carburetor issues are electrical!"
Hope to see you in June.
DA
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/14/15 1:44 pm

Im planning on being there, but not yet with this one. Ill be bringing my old streetbike just for fun. At least its not taken down quite so far at the moment.

I didnt know that about the shoreis. I just discovered them nerding around on the net, and have no experience with them. Ill be sure to keep it charged.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/02/15 5:18 pm



extra exhaust bungs for the AEM air-fuel gauge. i'm putting these in several machines to look at numbers for the jetting. dunno how well it work for me, but if i don't try it out i'll never know.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/02/15 5:26 pm

front and back of the speedhut tachometer





lots of wires on the speedhut gauge, but most aren't needed. all it really needs to have is a 12volt hot wire, a negative ground, and the antenna wire for the GPS. the other stuff all runs idiot lights for turns and high beam, and gauge illumination. won't hook that up.

this gauge has a vestigial speedometer which i couldn't get them to delete. more importantly, it uses the GPS for 0-to-60, top speed, and quarter mile numbers.

there's a local airport here with a seldom-used runway. once i get a machine with a functioning motor to test, i'll see whether they will let me use their runway and what their requirements might be. otherwise, there's a 1/8-mile drag strip that's open to a run-what-you-brung every weekend. LSR is long on waiting, and short on track time, so if i can dial stuff in before track day i'll be money ahead.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/02/15 6:00 pm

exquisite sudco spigot mounts for the keihin FCR carbs. the carbs are a 35mm venturi, an odd size. keihin goes 35, 37, 39 . . . instead of the customary even numbers. they make a kit for the commandos that CNW sells, which is gorgeous, but takes advantage of the norton's parallel ports and isn't easily adaptable to the triumph splayed heads.

the spigots are 33mm in, 28 mm out, for a 35mm carb. dunno how that will work with the porting. it's a smooth constriction, and if the heads have low resistance, i'm hoping they won't bottleneck the airflow.



Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/02/15 6:06 pm

btw, do any of you brits drink mescal?

curious, in this age of transatlantic cultural exchange



it's similar to tequila, but comes with an agave worm for you to eat to demonstrate the size of your cojones.

the mescal tastes great. i keep eating the worm hoping it will improve, but it always tastes like shit.
Posted By: shel

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/02/15 6:13 pm

Monte Alban, very smooth
Posted By: Rickman

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/02/15 6:20 pm

Kevin,
What're you wearing the wrist brace for???
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/02/15 6:43 pm

i drive big trucks for a living right now, and after three million miles in trucks i have no cartilage left in my elbows. my wife claims that immobilizing the wrist will keep me from further deteriorating, but i am not convinced.

but she is a left-handed blonde pisces, born in the year of the dragon, and i know that's it's better to at least try for a while than discuss the matter.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/02/15 6:46 pm

Originally Posted By shel
Monte Alban, very smooth


ahh

a fellow victim
Posted By: shel

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/02/15 7:05 pm

When you start drinking your first bottle you swear you ain't gonna eat that worm but by the time you get to the bottom of the bottle you'd fight someone for it
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/02/15 7:27 pm

i've had that character shift with tequila before.

even without the worm
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/04/15 7:05 am

Two years ago after our bike set a new record at Ohio , the bunch of us drank mass quantities of Tequila. I'm not much of a drinker... but it was a memorable night dancing with drunken women in a sleazy bar. And a memorable 8 hour ride home puking out the window...
Posted By: DKA

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/04/15 8:30 am

Gives me a headache just thinkin bout those times crawling across the yard...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/05/15 8:06 pm

That's funny, you know.

I had a friend once who woke up next day after a party face down on a white shag rug in the living room.

Stark naked.

He wandered for an hour around a house full of strangers still asleep looking for his clothing, which had been thoughtfully distributed across the property.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/11/15 9:06 pm

okay. it's been a long time coming, and it's especially painful because today is wilmington's july LSR meet, and i didn't make it. wrong tires on the old morgo street bike i was planning on running for giggles-- i need to match the 750 record for speed rating. my tires are V-rated, good for 130 mph. the MPG750/4 record? 130.17 mph.

but things are moving forward on this incredibly long project.

here's the chassis, ready:



yesterday ed at E & V called up to say the pistons are on the way. "very light, they are . . , " he said, which is good, because the rods are " . . . very heavy," being MAP steel units. ed sent the bobweights to greg blagus at RoDy Engineering, who is making the crank. he has the MAP rods and the drive pulley for the newby belt drive, so he can finally balance the 750 billet crank he's had finished for a month.

with the pistons on the way, i called my local race machinist about the camshaft bearings and jugs:

" . . . haven't done anything yet ..."

which is okay, as there was nothing he could bore until he had pistons in his hand.

next week he will, so:

1) the cylinders will be honed
2) the cam bushings will be installed and reamed
3) i'll have everything except the head to start assembly.

if i don't get the head back by time for september, i have another stock head i'll drop on the motor just to have something to run. it will be one-plug-per-cylinder, but i have an ARD to make an ignition for it on short notice, and everything else is finally here, even some plain steel 1.5-inch headers and reverse cone megaphones.

tuning will be the issue, but we'll see what we have when we have it.

yo, hillbilly-- i cheated and found somebody who sold pre-drilled half-inch nuts for the front axle. i don't have to drill these little buggers for safety wire after all:

Posted By: Triless

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/11/15 10:16 pm

This is a great thread. Very interesting. But drinking stuff with grubs in it! ?
I thought you blokes would have lots of good Jack, and Jim, over there! And you don't have to eat a bloody grub after drinking it. And who knows what the gub has done in the stuff? Oh, good grief!!
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/11/15 11:09 pm

Eating grubs is one thing but when a fella has a handful of nice nuts... Whole nuther thread.
I wish I had nuts like those.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/12/15 5:57 am

Kevin, I had a small jig for drilling nuts and bolts. But many of them I drilled with the bolt or nut clamped in a vice and a hand held drill.
Yeah the tire speed rating...
Looks like your build has some momentum....
Posted By: DKA

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/12/15 8:02 am

I have snapped more than one tiny drill bit using those little jigs. One was stuck deep in the jig and took a lot of curse words to remove. So, where did you get the nuts?
Posted By: konon

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/12/15 8:08 am

All the details start to add up. Sounds like it's going well for you.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/12/15 11:49 am

Originally Posted By DKA
I have snapped more than one tiny drill bit using those little jigs. One was stuck deep in the jig and took a lot of curse words to remove. So, where did you get the nuts?



Aircraft Hardware Supply houses. http://www.wicksaircraft.com/about-us.html

The stuff is not as pricey as you might think.
It's another thought going into my build folder...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/12/15 1:40 pm

^^^ exactly true. . ..

i started nerding around the aviation websites until i found a supplier. these were about a buck each, seemingly expensive. but the old conical and disc front ends have eight of them, and they're only a half-inch. drilling 16 of these would have blown my budget on 1/16" drill bits.

the aircraft people have really interesting stuff, some of which can be adapted to this kind of thing.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/12/15 5:30 pm

If anyone has an aviation engine rebuild shop anywhere near you, it's a sure bet you can buy a 5 gallon bucket full of retired fasteners. There's an Ebay opportunity for someone with time.

I worked as a kid disassembling small aircraft engines for rebuild. Most of the fasteners are scrapped, and all new are installed. The buckets went to the scrap guy once a month.

Just thinking out loud...
Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/12/15 5:49 pm

I had to drill 30 3/8" nuts for the new sidecar. I made a small jig to hod the nuts in a vice in the drill press. Very frustrating until an machine shop owning friend gave me a solid carbide bit. Went through the 30 in nothing flat. I was even looking for more nuts to drill. If you are going to drill nuts, spend a couple of bucks and get a solid carbide bit.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/12/15 7:59 pm

Originally Posted By Triless
And who knows what the gub has done in the stuff? Oh, good grief!!


i don't really know what the grub does before it goes into the tequila, or after.

but it isn't very large. here's a more recent one:



they appear to be the same species. i shall investigate further, and let you know what i find. unfortunately, only one is provided per bottle, so i shall have to increase my sample size.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/12/15 8:02 pm

Originally Posted By noisy norton
If you are going to drill nuts, spend a couple of bucks and get a solid carbide bit.


i went through an entire bit just on two holes in the rear axle nut, broke three times.

normally i resharpen my drill bits with a grinder fixture, but for this i just pulled harder on the drill press.

carbide bits are in my future, i predict.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/12/15 8:04 pm

Ever see a close up of the mouth end??? Nasty business. You might stop eating them.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/12/15 8:22 pm

these are up here somewhere else, but here are the 35mm FCR keihins i'm using. flat slides, accelerator pump, equisite construction:





i was planning on running 36mm lectrons, but the man porting my cylinder head strongly suggested that i use these. i want to do everything i can to take advantage of what he knows and i don't, so these are the carbs i'll put on. i may test them out on my streetbike first, just because they are so interesting.

. . . and old tech, these days. they go back to the 1990s, and are likely the high point of carburetor development, as they were shortly superceded by fuel injection. sort of like how the P-51 mustang with the merlin epitomizes piston engined aircraft-- jets came in and piston development stopped. fuel injection came in, and carb development stalled.

anyway, these have a tuning system similar to the amals or mikunis: pilot jets (for both air or fuel), pilot fuel screw, throttle slide cutaway, needle jet, needle diameter and taper, needle position, main jet.

there's only one needle jet. i thought that made the tuning a bit simpler, but magnetoman pointed out that the needles came in different diameters instead. a zero-sum game.

they also come with an accelerator pump and a push-pull throttle linkage. the folks at barnett who made me cables told me the push-pull was overkill, as the carbs have a pretty strong spring pulling the slide back down. this was good, as doing a push-pull on twin carbs without a solid linkage would have meant two cables from the throttle, leading to two splitter boxes, one to push and one to pull, each connected to two different carbs. a nightmare in the making.

sudco makes a popular kit for two of these 35 mm units to fit onto a norton. nortons are easier, though, because they have parallel ports, like the later bonnevilles. no such simplicity here. but apparently they make the nortons very sharp.

these carbs come pre-jetted for a standard 370cc japanese dirt bike. i got them with that jetting, and also six jets each (three up, three down) for both the main and the pilot. once it runs and i have the A/F gauge hooked up i'll be better able to look over the slide cutaway and the needles.

in the past i've always tuned carbs by the seat of my pants. i'm curious as to whether the AEM A/F gauge will help.

new frontiers for me.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/12/15 8:23 pm

Originally Posted By kevin
Originally Posted By noisy norton
If you are going to drill nuts, spend a couple of bucks and get a solid carbide bit.


i went through an entire bit just on two holes in the rear axle nut, broke three times.

normally i resharpen my drill bits with a grinder fixture, but for this i just pulled harder on the drill press.

carbide bits are in my future, i predict.


What is this "resharpening" you speak of? When I'm done with a drill it's just a blue nub...
A also drilled out the nuts on the rear drum brake stay bolts and the two primary cover nuts...

Interesting carbs....accelerator pumps, very cool.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/12/15 8:29 pm

Originally Posted By Zombie
Ever see a close up of the mouth end??? Nasty business. You might stop eating them.



i didn't really need to see that, you know.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/12/15 8:40 pm

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike

What is this "resharpening" you speak of? When I'm done with a drill it's just a blue nub...


i wear out my bits just like you do. but years ago i bought a fixture that bolts to the worktable and clamps a bit into a holder and lets you rotate the tip against the side of a specialty flat grinding wheel. then you flip the bit over, retighten, and do the other side.

you can adjust the tip angle for different materials, but i think 78 degrees was the standard compromise for working metal.

this lets me buy jobber bits, wear them out, resharpen, and wear them out again. all the bits in my bit case are all random lengths.

bought this at sears and roebuck some thirty years ago. the bits come out sharp and cut like new. i'll take a picture when there's some light. all the overheads in my shop went out at once.

Quote:

A also drilled out the nuts on the rear drum brake stay bolts and the two primary cover nuts...


do we have to do that? chris even has his oil cap wired on, but i thought the rules just specified axle fixtures.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/12/15 10:17 pm

I have found more often than not, any MC carb running an accelerator pump will clog that tiny jet.
It's the smallest in the carb, and the most prone to clogging.

Now that said... I'd be a liar if I said I would pass up a shot at trying those. the best all around carbs I have used are the simplest. pilot, variable/changeable needle, and main.

You know you are bitten when you are changing needles for humidity, and temperature. I've worn out more caps, and cap screws than I can remember.


If nothing else becomes of my time on this Earth... I may have prevented Kevin from eating any more grubs.
My life is complete.:+>
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/13/15 5:41 am

You don't have to tie wire brake fasteners but it looks impressive smile
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/13/15 7:30 pm

i didn't always eat grubs. but the worms always made my face break out, so i decided to give them a try.

Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/13/15 8:35 pm

Ok... Yeah. I see the problem now.

Well,with the liberal mentality of most governments today I'm pretty sure you can call your issue a disease. There is no more responsibility for self so I feel safe in advising you can find a clinic that will supply you all the grubs you need for free.
With that monkey off your back you can spend tons more on bikes, and bike parts.

LOL... Stroke of genius! My disease is motorcycles!! I can prove a life long addiction.
Anyone know if there is a Betty Ford clinic for bikes?

Never mind... Google to the rescue.

I feel you pain Mr. Kevin. The mind is a terrible thing.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/14/15 9:43 pm

pistons arrived on the little brown truck, finally.

forged, from JE. 237 grams each. something around 11+ to 1. pretty deep pockets for the valves. i'll see about smoothing the sharp edges when they come back from the machine shop. no squish to speak of, and a really high dome, but the plan is to twin-plug the head to compensate for that.

lots of details-- the pin holes have a small pocket cut out so you can lift out the circlips without digging into the aluminum, for instance.



doesn't appear to be cut differently for intake or exhaust



the underside of the crown has been milled out beautifully, with pin oiling passages



they go off to the machinist tomorrow morning, so he can finally square up and bore the cylinders.
Posted By: DKA

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/14/15 10:04 pm

We all like looking at shiny new baubles, especially machined metal ones!
Thanks for the pictures.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/14/15 10:23 pm

Looking at new parts never gets old. Even if they are someone else's.Is there a channel cut between the oilers in the wrist pin bosses? It would be a great mod if there isn't.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/15/15 12:10 am

no, not a channel, but the pin bore has two grooves cut across it to distribute oil from the gap across the contact surface:



you can see that there's no connection between the grooves and the oil ways.



just as an aside, i don't know how piston pins keep from seizing. the pin and the bore take all the force from the piston and transmit it to the rod, and it adds up to the same force that the rod and the crank journal have to support. but the crank journal is bigger, and rotates and develops an oil wedge. it's also hotter up in the pin bore, and surfaces are smaller, and even though the pin doesn't have to rotate there have to be surfaces in motion.

dunno.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/15/15 12:49 am

I'm sort of anal about wrist pins. While a seized pin may never be an issue, it does tell a lot about the builder.

The attention to detail in those pistons is impressive. Looking close you can see a cross hatch bore in the bosses. Combining that with the twin oilers on each side, and the channels cut, that pin will actually float.
The only time a seized pin can be an issue is when the piston is heating or cooling. It can fracture the piston due to the different expansions of the Alum., and the chrome-alloy pin. I'd have to say from JUST looking at the pin bosses in such detail (thanks for that) that JE is working hard to provide a quality piston.

Do you have rings selected? Anything special? Pardon if I drool a little...

Edit:
I just looked back. Those sharp edges inside he oil holes can use a quick relief. Where's that "wink" thingy?
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/15/15 8:13 am

I like the idea of Kevin's pistons being a lot different than the low dome tight quench 10.5 MAP pistons I used. This will be a good example to test different build philosophies.

My junk seen during off season inspection

Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/15/15 11:23 am

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
This will be a good example to test different build philosophies.




You could almost say it is comparing a full hemi to a semi hemi.
I can see getting a much higher compression ratio on the same octane using the JE pistons.
Back in the day we used to swap out domes for flat top to get more "snap" in the throttle but detonation was always in the back of your mind.

I'm curious if there is anything to read up on this. Compression ratio/Ign.timing/valve timing/octane rating, in a Triumph engine. I mean comparing these two types of pistons specifically.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/15/15 12:40 pm

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
I like the idea of Kevin's pistons being a lot different than the low dome tight quench 10.5 MAP pistons I used. This will be a good example to test different build philosophies.


those 10.5s are already higher than anybody ever used to reccommend, even MAP (for a streetable bike, TT notwithstanding). i'll be interested in seeing how they compare, too, but there will be differences elsewhere that will mask some of that-- carburation and exhaust come to mind. compression is always nice to have, if you can use it, but there are other things going on in the combustion chamber that are at least as important. your MAPs have a narrow squish band, for instance, and the JEs don't have any at all. that may end up more important than the compression.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/15/15 12:44 pm

Originally Posted By Zombie

Do you have rings selected? Anything special? Pardon if I drool a little...


came with the piston. no manufacturer listed, just parts numbers and "made in japan."

Quote:

I just looked back. Those sharp edges inside he oil holes can use a quick relief. Where's that "wink" thingy?


i'll look them over carefully when they get back.

right now i'm trying to work out the thackery washers and spacers on my old morgo. it's been on the lift way too long, and summer is slipping away.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/15/15 1:03 pm

The 10.5 piston domes look higher in the photo. In reality they are just slightly higher than a typical Triumph 9-1 piston with a rounded dome.
The flat dome is less likely to interfere with flame travel especially on a single plug head..The quench ,.035 on mine, is supposed to add turbulence and lessen the risk of detonation over a taller higher dome of the same compression...Of course this is all theory and the rest of the engine build must be considered.
I use nitrided nodular iron rings supplied with the pistons with a some what fine #220 hone and then plateaued with a few strokes of a 400 hone in reverse... There will be differences of opinion on this and in the end if the engine is all it can be that's all that matters.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/15/15 4:40 pm

The offset spark leads to an important question... How much side load will be placed on the piston during each combustion cycle?

Things happen fast, and loads peak quickly.

Now I can see an advantage to the round dome acting as a very large 'quench' zone. A centered spark would be almost mandatory tho.
I started my engine "education" in 2 stroke, and that has always been my real love in design. Setting a proper squish is perhaps the most important aspect once you get into higher compression than available fuels can handle. You fellas bot know your beans from the gravy so I can't say anything new here. I'm just thinking out loud.

I would have to believe (instinct) that those high, round domes would really come to life with a center mounted spark. That alone could be worth the effort in not having to set up a proper squish.

I always shake my head when it comes time to set the squish on any motor. Even when you set it correctly to the recommend... it can be better. Then it gets cold out, and all that work is different due to air density. It's a never win battle for me.

I'll be very interested to see how you make out Kevin.

Ps... Japan rings are most likely Riken but I would have to think they were re-packaged for your kit. For the few bucks I think I would buy a real set. Like Hillbilly, I prefer Hi Carbon cast iron rings. Old school has its benefits.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/15/15 9:31 pm

center plugs are hard to do, as there isn't much metal between the valves. i think the solution using center plugs in the past has been to use 10mm plugs and shoot at the mixture through a slot.

easier to just spark from both sides at once. this is the head off my old morgo:

Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/15/15 9:55 pm

Personally I am not a fan of multi plug cylinders. You end up with colliding flame fronts, and in may cases worse detonation.
At least that has been my experience.

I asked about these dual plug heads in the Brit Bike realm, and never really got a full answer. If they do contribute to real increases in HP or torque here I don't know.

Has anyone tried the mini champions? Perhaps this is the 10mm plug you mentioned...
Back in the 80's I set four champion Rimfire plugs into a Cagiva MXR 250 head. The bike had to run rich because overheating was an issue with that engine. Fouling plugs was a constant problem, and eventually the spark plug hole stripped out. The solution was easy. Double up on the coils, and run four micro plugs. Never had a problem again.

This has me looking at the head I just bought, You're 100% correct. No room.

Now I'm daydreaming about piston dome modifications to offset the "potential" side loading. Is there no end to this??? I wish the plug, and play bug would bite me. Just once!

Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/16/15 8:49 pm

Originally Posted By Zombie

I asked about these dual plug heads in the Brit Bike realm, and never really got a full answer. If they do contribute to real increases in HP or torque here I don't know.


there's some discussion on this forum about them. i've run mine for some 29 years without a problem, using a boyer and old panhead coils. search on dual plug and twin plug.

we'll see how they work on this motor.

i was never able to keep champion N3 (or N3G) plugs from fouling in this machine, so i switched to NGKB8s and B7s and never fouled a plug again.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/16/15 9:24 pm

I'll see if I can find the thread(s). Thanks!

What I'm interested in is Dyno or MPG results.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/17/15 7:03 am

The primary advantage of twin plug is the total timing can be dialed back about 10-12 degrees.On a street bike you can run a higher compression on available fuel without detonation. Should also make more power with less timing and a faster burn.
There's scant info on Triumph dyno numbers other than the crap I've posted...
Detonation is a complicated affair..It's said to be spontaneous ignition of end gases, not the primary flame front.It can be confused with pre ignition.
Auto makers have used dual plugs on occasion mainly for emissions purposes.
New fast burn cylinder head combustion chamber designs have eliminated the need for dual plugs in most cases.I believe the Mopar new Hemi has dual plugs.. actually it's not a true hemi..
I would say a Weslake type head id a faster burn type compared to the high hemi dome stock Triumph
Most all piston aircraft engine use dual plugs.It's no so much for reliability as it is to get a quick burn on very large bore engines.
I dual plugged a Harley Shovel years ago. It was 10-1 compression with a moderate cam. I didn't notice any performance difference but it had no detonation I could hear...
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/17/15 10:58 am

Thanks for that HillBilly.

Detonation is a worthy topic here. On most forums it has been beaten to death so I don't know how well it has been covered on BritBike.

The biggest issue with timing is keeping that 14* mark after TDC to keep the "power stroke going.
If dual plugs will allow decreased timing and higher compression how do you still maintain the optimum 14* after setting?

Think I just answered my own question by re reading... Faster burn time. I'm going to have to look further into this idea because I HATE dealing with setting squish bands. It's just a peeve of mine.

Those high dome JE's have caught my imagination. Any potential side loading could, and should be manageable with a dual plug head. Higher compression, faster burn, reduced timing, no squish band to set up, it sounds interesting...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/17/15 7:23 pm

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
The primary advantage of twin plug is the total timing can be dialed back about 10-12 degrees.On a street bike you can run a higher compression on available fuel without detonation. Should also make more power with less timing and a faster burn.


i've got a pazon dual-plug ignition coming in the mail right now. they have a non-adjustable advance curve set to full advance at 32 BTDC.

john healy has reccommended 28 degrees on the 500s using twin plugs, i think. have to go look it up.

i could run an ordinary boyer, but they're designed to advance to 38, and to pull it back to 28-30 degrees at full advance means it would be super retarded at idle.

Quote:

There's scant info on Triumph dyno numbers other than the crap I've posted...


post some more crap. i'll post what i get, if i ever get anything.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/17/15 9:04 pm

Here is the programmable ignition system I will be using...
http://www.hpi.be/cdi.php

Setting up a dual spark plug head would be no big issue for these CDI's.
The website is packed with info but your best bet is to call direct.
If there is something you need, that is not already made by them, they will make it for/with you.

I've worked with them for 12 years, and a dozen or more bikes. Not one problem was ever left unsolved.

Look up, and download Tune Box. It's on the site.
That is the program that programs their CDI's. It's free, and it give a great insight as to what you can really do with their equipment.

Here's something I discover by accident...
I have two bad ankles, and one, and 1/2 knees. I programmed their CDI to fire at 2-5* degrees BTDC from 0 to 250RPM. From 251 to whatever you choose set another BTDC number. example 25* from 251 rpm to 400rpm. from 401 to 3000 rpm set 30* or whatever.

The point here is you can set minimal timing BTDC to make for easy kickstart, and almost ZERO chance of kick backs. A programmable CDI is a MUST have for a custom build. I wouldn't even consider anything else.

Tell them scooter boy sent ya!
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/18/15 6:49 am

One of the dyno sessions on my bike last year. This is rear wheel HP...650 cc Triumph built from a pile of parts. Sifton 390 cams, Mikuni 34 MM flatslides, 10.5 compression, raised intake port floors and slight work on exhaust ports.I was doing jetting ,intake length ,and exhaust adjustments. Best power was 1-1/2 x 38 inch pipes, carbs mounted close to the head. The power drop at 7300 rpm is when I chopped the throttle, the engine will pull over 7500 rpm but power is falling off.
The torque not shown on this graph peaks at 46 ft lbs at a very low 5000 rpm and stays above 40 ft lbs. until 7200 rpm.The engine starts easily and idles at 1000 rpm..Slight reversion at 3500 rpm...



Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/18/15 1:23 pm

That's helpful info HillBilly...

I'm curious if you tried different diameter pipes, and or longer intake tracts.
I think it was Mr. Pete that recommended 1.75" pipes, and a 13" intake tract. These were also for a 750cc long rod so I'm not sure that the numbers would apply to a 650cc.

Do you know where you ignition timing was at peak HP?

This is with a dual plug head?
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/18/15 4:25 pm

I tried the recommended long intakes ,lolly pops in the straight pipes and all that.
The green line is the best power as I described in the previous post.The long intakes increased reversion and made less torque and power. And was in the way of the riders legs..
I made more runs that what you see on another day but they were with a two into one exhaust and longer intakes...
Nothing made better torque and HP than the short intakes and straight pipes..
The total ignition timing was set initially at 38 degrees.I advanced it slightly and it made more power but I never strobed it.
The late Ron from California told me to forget the formulas and get the thing tuned on the dyno and then fine adjustments at the track..I did that and got me a winning pony.

Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/18/15 7:47 pm

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
I did that and got me a winning pony.


it sure did, and you've got five days more to fuss with it for loring.

obviously the only way to find out what intake/exhaust the motor likes is to try it out. i'm starting with 33-inch 1-5/8 pipes, and i think 5-3/4 inches on the intakes, air horn to valve, on the advice of the head guy. i also have a set of stock length 1-1/2 inch pipes to try for a baseline, plus some 17-inch open reverse cone megaphones. i don't have any idea where that will go. there are a lot of formulas for pipes and intakes, but there are so many variables i think it's probably more practical to start in the middle of what calculates out and then just test. what works is what works, whether you understand it or not.

there's a dyno guy up in medina, ohio, i want to talk to. it's becoming clear to me that my machine won't be ready for september, so i'll have the winter to mess with it. no outside runs, though.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/18/15 7:53 pm

you know, i don't really understand sonic tuning, but i've noticed that some of the pipes people use for triumphs end up with similar volumes of around 67 cubic inches per pipe-- skinny pipes tend to be longer, fat pipes tend to be shorter. the speed of sound is proportional to gas density, so i'm left wondering if the wave pulses through the pipes change in speed based on pipe diameter, and really everybody is doing the same thing without realizing it.

haven't looked at enough pipes to say anything definitive.

just a thought.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/18/15 8:14 pm

Thanks for the input, and details fellas. A lot of time, and money can be spent on intakes, and pipes trying to dial in a winner.

I 100% agree with starting with a proven base (ie: close to factory or something repeatedly proven on the track or Dyno). All the exotic stuff should be looked at as an experiment, and not the primary focus.

I was/am considering a set of intakes that reverse, (U) and face forward. Not to gain any 'ram air effect" because I found it is a waste of time converting a vacuum operated carb into a blow thru hybrid. Instead the idea was to simply gain the length mentioned, and avoid the rider comfort issue. The carbs would have to run closed face filters to avoid a ram effect but this is all speculation as to if there is an advantage to longer intakes.
Obviously for your bike Hillbilly there was not. It could be in your cams/cam timing or your ignition timing or even your intake diameter/carb diameter. Too many variables to mess with for the average joe rider.

All this advice, and details are very valuable for us "newbies".
On a quick side note... I had a chance to buy a used Dyno about 10 years ago. i still kick myself for not jumping on it.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/19/15 6:28 am

Originally Posted By kevin
Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
I did that and got me a winning pony.

[i][/i]
it sure did, and you've got five days more to fuss with it for loring.


The bike has been ready for 6 months. I haven't changed the spark plugs or the motor oil grin The only performance changes are 4.47 overall gearing...130 MPH @ 7200 rpm. Last year with 4.66 gearing the engine peaked at 7200-7300 rpm before the Ohio one mile finish. Maine is a 1-1/2 mile and I believe the engine will pull 7300 rpm.
We keep talking engines but the rider is just as important on a naked frame bike.
At any rate, if the gods favor us, Rough Edge Racing will be successful .
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/19/15 12:46 pm

I assume you are making these gearing changes at the sprockets... Where are you finding the sprockets?
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/19/15 12:56 pm

All unit 650/750 Triumphs are 2 to one primary. The previous sprockets were 21 on the gearbox and a 49 rear from Rebel Sprocket. They make very nice aluminum sprockets for about 50-60 bucks. The 21 tooth is a repop pattern, the 47 rear on it now is original Triumph.
Posted By: DKA

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/19/15 1:08 pm

I can attest to the niceness (is that a word?) of the Rebel Gears. I have been using them for several years. Located in Knoxville or Nashville Tn. so its easy shipping to NC.

Zombie, I want to check out your CDI recommendation. I'll PM you.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/19/15 1:44 pm

ive got the same primary ratio as everybody else on these motors, but i'm running the old rear wheel, so i have 20/43 for final drive.

id like to run my old morgo this september. its 19/47, which is stock, good for 115 maybe. but ive got a 20-tooth output sprocket sitting on tbe bench. cant go below 47 on the conical rear ends. id like to know once and for all what it can do without looking out for cops.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/19/15 2:48 pm

Our first two times out with the bike at Ohio I used 21-50 ,27 inch tall tire so the first time out was 118 mph @ 6950 rpm. The last meet of that year was 120 with a slight exhaust change and a bit more timing advance. I had these cute 45 degree turn outs at the exhaust pipe exit.Gave the bike a bit of style.A circle track car guy told me they cost 2 MPH..I cut them off....I guess he was close..
Then came engine improvements and the higher gears and more speed
But at the same time the rider has improved his style...So who knows which is the bigger influence on speed.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/20/15 1:42 am

I follow the 45* cut offs idea. There is WAY more happening in the pipe than 70-80-90% of builders realize.

This is where I ALWAYS get F'd up. Changing more than one thing at at a time. Come in for a spark plug change, and end up swapping jets... Same as an improved rider or track experience. What made the 2 second difference?

For those that want to run, and not deal with killing someone else or get that 15th ticket... Hit up your small air fields. Most of them run close to a mile or better, and bring a cop. Really!
They can hit you with Radar, and while it's not record allowable it is a great tuning tool.

For HPI Bart Shepers is the fella to want to talk to. He owns the company. He'll get to know you , and hand you over to one of the lead designers.
If they say they are going on a quick VaCa... They are in Belgium. 40 minutes from Amsterdam. Nuff sayed!
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/20/15 1:48 pm

hillbilly, you did that with 21/50?

nice. ill end up notching the trapdoor in mine for a 21 sooner or later, but i want to run it with a 20 for a bit to look it over.

Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/20/15 3:44 pm

Originally Posted By kevin
hillbilly, you did that with 21/50?

nice. ill end up notching the trapdoor in mine for a 21 sooner or later, but i want to run it with a 20 for a bit to look it over.



Yes, 21-50 on the 118 and 120 mph....It's quite a big notch...I used a burr in a hand held drill motor.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/21/15 4:44 pm

. . . against all common sense and cautions from the manufacturer i bought a pazon twin plug ignition from MAP.

they had the only two in the united states.

even if ihave to go to andy and figure out a solution using the old pazon stator/rotor, i nowhave ignition coils and wires and a black box with the correct advance.

the pazon coils are TINY.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/24/15 12:13 pm

As long as you match up input impedance of the Pazon coils... you can use any aftermarket coil you like.

I've used the MSD Blaster coils on a few bikes. There are also loads of small "per cylinder" coils available in 45k volts plus.
I'd spend some time looking for a great coil. 45k is the least output voltage I would run. Most bikes run 25-35k volts.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/24/15 2:28 pm

the german coils in the pazon setup are already matched to their box, so that homework is done. having them extremely small is a plus too, as it will make them that much easier to mount. i was running old 6volt harley coils in another machine set up with a twin plug system using a boyer, and the coils were impossible to mount.

right now i'm setting up dynatek coils cobbled up on temporary mounts on that machine. they're 2.2 ohms each, so running in series gives me a resistance within the boyer's operating range:

Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/24/15 4:17 pm

Were on the same page. As long as it does what you need it to do... all is fair!
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/25/15 8:46 pm

i want it make me young, charming, and famous beyond my wildest dreams . . .

wait, that seat's been taken, hasn't it?



anybody else remember hailwood's comeback in 1978? i was horrified that he would roll the dice that way, as it seemed to me.

not, interestingly, to him.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/25/15 8:56 pm

There are very few special people. I never quite figured out what the "It" factor is.

I'm going to play video game now...
Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/26/15 3:32 pm

I was fortunate to be in the Island when Hailwood made his comeback. Me and an extra 50,000 people. Such was his drawing power.They call Rossi, Marquez and the rest aliens. But Hailwood was from another solar system. What is "it"? I don't know but I do know Hailwood had it by the bucketful.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/26/15 9:56 pm

were you really? the chance of a lifetime.

even from this side of the pond, i was mesmerized by his abilities.
Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/26/15 11:36 pm

A long story but I went to Ireland in 1967. Supposed to be for a year but turned into 15. I used to go to the Island every year and stayed at the same hotel (New Victoria). When I'd leave Sheila (landlady) would ask if I'd be back next year. Yes and she'd reserve a room. Which proved fortuitous when Hailwood announced his return. The Island was buried in room requests. I got up early for one of the morning practices and went over to Bradden Bridge. On race day its packed solid. Early morning had maybe 30 people. Sat right at the front. Hailwood did a lap and then changed to a 250 Yam. I guess it was cold tires but he lost the front end on the exit and hit the bales right at my feet. Dipshit here only had one shot left in the camera.

Posted By: Marc

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/18/15 4:11 pm

Originally Posted By DKA
Bulldog,
I have been keeping up with your build threads and I felt sorry for you being smacked around on landracing.com. I think that most of the guys, including BAK, are very experienced and knowledgable. But a lot of them get their feathers ruffled when someone new comes in and announces he is going to kick ass. As time has progressed it seems that everyone including Bak has offered good friendly advise and you have used it. Now, I can't wait to watch your Enfield roar off toward the white horizon. Please make me envious of your speeds.

Kevin, listen to Bulldog. There is an ungodly amount of good information on landracing.com as well as this wonderful forum.

And remember that there is no detail small enough to not f**k up a weekend.
DA

We built this car in 2-1/2months from scratch, painted the nose the Thurs. morning that we loaded and headed to B'ville. As soon as we got there the "Pros" started picking us apart, not for the build quality that everyone one went nuts over (SCTA put our car on the front of the official T-shirt for 2012). But when asked what the car weighed, we were told "we would need to add 1000lbs of weight or my driver was going home in a wooden box and the car would end up in that dumpster over there."
By the end of the week we were sitting on a new record that had stood for 14 years. A lot of the top guys were eating humble pie when they came to us acknowledging our record and wondering how we did it, as they had been doing this for 20 years with deep pockets and big crews. We built this car for less than $35k in 2-1/2 months. It has broken or set the class record everywhere we have taken it.
Posted By: DKA

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/18/15 5:23 pm

And its purty too! beerchug

DA
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/18/15 6:13 pm

I say this a lot. When you don't know the rules, they don't apply.

Builders tend to get pigeon holed in their thinking. Meaning they focus on thew same issues, and the same solutions over, and over again.

Coming to the build table with a set of fresh ideas is what makes great vehicles. Then you have to 3-4 guys per generation that quickly forget the rules they have learned, and start from scratch, every build. I have much more respect for these "free thinkers" that make all the improvements in motorsports than I do for the guys that keep building the same tired thing in new skins.

No doubt Marc... That is a beautiful car. Not the first time I've seen it either. C/GCC record, 265.61 mph
Posted By: Marc

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/18/15 7:08 pm

We have a new induction system on it and looking for 275mph the next trip. Ultimate goal for this car was 300mph, but I honestly don't think it can happen with this size motor. Actually it's not the motor size because we are usually faster than all the bigger engine classes of Comp Coupe. For example at Ohio we are at 219.9 in the "C" engine size. The "B" record is 33mph slower and the "A" record is 20mph slower. In the "Fuel" class, running on gas, we are at 219.1 and "B" is 35mph slower, the "A" is 78mph slower and the "AA" is 40mph slower. When we are at B'ville everyone else in our class is trying to break 200mph. We do have a guy threatening to take our record with a Studebaker they have been working on for 3 years now and have $1.5 million in it. Arrogant driver spun the car at 227 and tore it all up.

Here's our sister truck, I'll have better pics tomorrow night after I get back from the shop. Wayne Jesel will be here with the engine to install.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/18/15 7:22 pm

what kind of motor/trans/induction are you running in this?

very pretty, too.



the weight question was to retain stability in crosswinds, or did they have any reason at all?

new benchmarks are set by people who don't do the same things that were done to set the old benchmarks. and sometimes people just do stuff differently for no good reason, and it works.
Posted By: Marc

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/18/15 8:16 pm

We were told the car would never stay on the ground ( which has absolutely nothing to do with weight, but more in aerodynamics). I did, after a few days, realize where adding some weight would help get traction in the first mile. We have added a approximately 300lbs since the first record. Without the weight we set the record with a 12mph crosswind. The record set up was a 3 year old Ernie Elliott Dodge Sprint Cut motor running 12:1cr 367ci, with a single 850 Demon carb on it making 900hp @9K rpm on gas.
Now don't get me wrong, not every run was a walk in the park. On the contrary, we had issues on just about every run, but got faster after every run. The first time he pulled the chute it hit like it hit a brick wall, picked the back of the car off the salt about 6' and turned it on it's nose at 245mph, set it down and drove (rode) it out without any damage. The dzus fasteners vibrated out of the second piece of belly pan and the front edge dropped down and turned into a salt plow that packed the engine bay, that was fun to clean (about 2.5 hours). Car spun about 6 times on one run and have spun on other runs when the salt was wet. The truck will have a twin 1160cfm carb set up.

Here's a vid of one of the initial firings, almost sucked a shop rag into the motor.
[img]http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh79/o1racing03/Creative%20Candy%20Album%20II/th_VIDEO0009.mp4[/img]
Posted By: Marc

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/18/15 8:19 pm

Does the video link work for you guys, won't open on my Safari?
Posted By: DKA

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/18/15 8:38 pm

I remember the first time I saw your car at Maxton. I was totally impress at the outside skin (I love Metropolitans) and then when you pulled the hood off...

Here are some pics for those that can't read.

[img:left]http://[/img]

[img:left]http://[/img]

[img:left]http://[/img]

Maxton, Ohio, Bonneville
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/18/15 8:43 pm

heavens

it is a metropolitan.

Posted By: Marc

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/18/15 9:04 pm

That's me in the bottom pic at B'ville tucking Bob in. Comp Coupe rules require that the body. from the firewall back, must be factory and the only allowable mod is cropping the roof up to 5" for earodynamics. From the fire wall forward is open. Someone asked him how he designed the nose and he replied " I took 3 big pieces of styrofoam and glued them together, I drew the outline of the firewall on one end and then got my chainsaw and cut off anything that didn't look like it would go 300mph.
Broke the record at B'ville, then broke the record at Maxton in their last event and were the first in the 200mph club at the new Ohio venue and set class record there.
Kevin, glad to see you in the discussion. Didn't mean to totally jack your thread.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/18/15 9:18 pm

you can't jack my thread if you're talking about LSR.

go for it. i'm learning.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/18/15 9:32 pm

Originally Posted By Marc
" I took 3 big pieces of styrofoam and glued them together, I drew the outline of the firewall on one end and then got my chainsaw and cut off anything that didn't look like it would go 300mph.



Love that description. No one could have said it more better-er.:-}
Posted By: Marc

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/18/15 9:45 pm

Did the video open for you guys?
[img]http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh79/o1racing03/Creative%20Candy%20Album%20II/th_VIDEO0009.mp4[/img]
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/18/15 9:49 pm

"This webpage has a redirect loop

ERR_TOO_MANY_REDIRECTS"

Comodo Dragon browser

I think if you take it out of the image brackets, and leave it as a link...
Posted By: DKA

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/18/15 9:51 pm

Nope frown
Posted By: quinten

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/18/15 9:57 pm


Originally Posted By Marc
Did the video open for you guys?

No , my device says " to many server redirects"
Foto bucket doesn't work even when it works .

.
Posted By: DKA

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/18/15 10:24 pm

Mark,
Tell us about the bike in the picture. I like those high pipes.
Posted By: Marc

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/18/15 11:20 pm

Originally Posted By DKA
Mark,
Tell us about the bike in the picture. I like those high pipes.

I assume you mean my bike? It's a 62 XLCH with Alan Sputhe heads, 1327cc, 11:1cr., Kimtab magnesium wheels, Ceriani's and it weighs 331lbs dry.



[/URL]



This video should open, it also opens my PB album if you want to scroll through some of the build .[img]http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh79/o1racing03/Creative%20Candy%20Album%20II/th_VIDEO0009.mp4[/img]
Posted By: Marc

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/18/15 11:41 pm

Skinny bike:



The EMGO fairing is for the street, any comp runs I will run the XRTT full fairing like this. My fairing is molded off of this fairing Cal Rayburn ran:
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/19/15 3:15 pm

well, the little brown truck came by today and dropped this off:



this started out as a 750 billet crank, but it's been cut for the 650 bearings. Ro-Dy Engineering and Nourish are the only sources for billet cranks at the moment. this one was balanced by Ro-Dy without drilling holes, running MAP rod weights and 10-under bearing shells.

the pulley is for the Newby 40mm belt drive. there has been a great deal of discussion of belt drives in this forum (and others) from time to time, but we'll see how it fits. the cases are 1970.

at the moment the cases and jugs are at the machine shop getting squared and bored. i've been working on other projects in the meantime, but now i have the big pieces and it's time to move forward.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/19/15 3:29 pm

just spoke to the machine shop. they installed the cam bearings (from raber's) and they checked out a bit large. raber's replaced them immediately (raber's is really, really good . . . ) and the cases will be ready by friday. jugs are bored and ready to go on the JE pistons.

this thing has been on hold for so long i've almost forgotten what it is i'm doing.

added: friday is the day after tomorrow.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/19/15 3:40 pm

I am absolutely green with envy.

I doesn't seem to matter what the new part is for but new parts are just soooooo coooollll.

I didn't realize it but we are building very similar engines. That is reassuring for me to see you fellas in the know using what you suggest as "best". (or at least, very good)

I'm excited for you. Nice to see parts coming in.

Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/19/15 4:12 pm

i'm not in the know.

i'm building what seems to make sense.

if it blows up, it will prove that i did it wrong.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/19/15 4:16 pm

has sludge tube access from both sides:





there's a little allen screw to hold the sludge tube in place, or whatever is in there. have to look.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/19/15 4:34 pm

Kevin,....Billet crank, belt drive , your junk is gonna roll soon.....

I dropped 4500 bucks last week on the double engine Triumph project...And don't even have cranks or primary drive. But it's my rider's money grin
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/19/15 4:40 pm

horrifying, isn't it?

this crank was $1725, plus $140 to balance. luckily, no mallory metal needed-- that stuff is a hundred bucks a slug.

but you know, my kids are mostly grown, and i have no incentive to be responsible.

i don't want to blow this motor if i can help it, and the billet crank is an acceptable level of insurance.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/19/15 4:46 pm

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike

...And don't even have cranks or primary drive.


wait a minute.

i thought that thing came with cranks.

what exactly are you going to build?
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/19/15 5:14 pm

Originally Posted By kevin
horrifying, isn't it?

this crank was $1725, plus $140 to balance. luckily, no mallory metal needed-- that stuff is a hundred bucks a slug.

but you know, my kids are mostly grown, and i have no incentive to be responsible.

I don't want to blow this motor if I can help it, and the billet crank is an acceptable level of insurance.


It's just money well spent...You could blow the money taking the wife to Europe..Or waste it gambling in Vegas or at the Bunny Ranch.. Or the kid's education...But at least with a bike you got something more than photographs of a good time or an educated kid living in the basement..
And setting a new class speed record? Priceless,king of the universe for a few days...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/19/15 8:15 pm

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
And setting a new class speed record? Priceless,king of the universe for a few days...


if you keep bumping it up i'll be playing second fiddle for ever.
Posted By: BikeVice

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/19/15 9:54 pm

Originally Posted By Marc
Originally Posted By DKA
Mark,
Tell us about the bike in the picture. I like those high pipes.

I assume you mean my bike? It's a 62 XLCH with Alan Sputhe heads, 1327cc, 11:1cr., Kimtab magnesium wheels, Ceriani's and it weighs 331lbs dry.



[/URL]



This video should open, it also opens my PB album if you want to scroll through some of the build .[img]http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh79/o1racing03/Creative%20Candy%20Album%20II/th_VIDEO0009.mp4[/img]


I've seen that XLCH before:

http://www.jockeyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82219&highlight=cafe&showall=1

Beautiful bike.

Eric
Posted By: DKA

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/19/15 10:18 pm

Marc,
sent you a PM
DA
Posted By: Marc

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/19/15 10:20 pm

No pics today of the B'ville S-10 Xtreme. As soon as I got to the shop I pulled everything from the doors forward off in anticipation of installing the motor tomorrow when Wayne Jesel shows up with it.
Yes my bike has made the rounds of every forum it might be associated with. It's been a very slow process getting it finished as I have struggled in business since the economy tanked in 08 and I just haven't been able to justify throwing money at it. I'm really hoping to have it ready for the Apr. event at Ohio. I hope to have it fire for the first time (in 36 years) in the next 2 weeks
Posted By: DKA

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/19/15 10:51 pm

Everyone will be glad to see her fire up and roar down the course. clap
Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/19/15 11:21 pm

Yes. Eagerly awaiting to hear it bark.
Posted By: Marc

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/21/15 12:03 pm

Here is our 5lb bag:

Here is a 10lbs of shit in a 5lb bag

945hp out of 372c.i. Twin 1160cfm.
I think we are pretty convinced World Finals is not going to happen, so looks like Ohio is where we'll be.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/21/15 3:28 pm

Nascar engine? I think I've seen one at Ohio and Loring in different body styles.They run about 230-240 MPH
Nice build..
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/21/15 5:20 pm

Add a Sound Stream stereo, and you can head straight to the Car Audio Nationals... After setting LSR(s).

I guess that wold make it a Dual Sport vehicle. Outside the realm of this thread. Sorry.

Seriously tho, you fellas are a passionate bunch. In some ways I miss all the building/tuning/re-building, did I say tweaking?
In more ways I am happy I had my fun when I was younger. I'm going to need my money for Geritol, and cigarettes.

God bless you, and good luck. It's probably the most competitive/saturated, sport I can think of. Skill rules. Money rides shotgun.
Posted By: Marc

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/21/15 6:47 pm

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
Nascar engine? I think I've seen one at Ohio and Loring in different body styles.They run about 230-240 MPH
Nice build..

This engine has 5 miles on it, I believe in a circle track car at Ohio that Wayne Jesel campaigns. We are looking for 220mph out of it at Ohio and after setting class record in the Metro with shifter problems and not getting the full use of 4th and 5th, we plan on setting the track record at 245+.
If you go back a page in this thread you'll see a similar single carb version of this motor in the Metro or link to the video of it running in the old shop.
There's lots of these Dodge motors out there for reasonable money.
I wish I was talking about my bike though. cool
Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/21/15 10:08 pm

I wish you were talking about your bike too. I'm dying to see how fast it is. Just stittin it looks like a record breaker.
Posted By: Marc

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/22/15 12:38 am

Originally Posted By noisy norton
I wish you were talking about your bike too. I'm dying to see how fast it is. Just stittin it looks like a record breaker.

It sucks we're probably not going to Bonneville or I would have had you stop in Palmdale, Ca. and pick up my 2 other bikes to bring to me. That way I wouldn't have to wait until Dec.
Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/22/15 5:07 pm

I went through Palmdale on the way to the SCTA Mojave meet.
Posted By: Marc

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/22/15 9:15 pm

Originally Posted By noisy norton
I went through Palmdale on the way to the SCTA Mojave meet.

His front porch over looks Hwy 14, 2 minutes from the house.
Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/22/15 10:32 pm

Must have drove right by his front door. I saw an announcement on FB that the SCTA have called World Finals. Nothing left now but El Mirage.
Posted By: Marc

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/23/15 2:04 am

Yup, I see on their website where they have canceled it. I guess that makes it clear where we are going. Need to change gears and tires.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/22/15 9:08 pm

well, it's assembly time. i got the cases back from the machinist with the new cam bearings installed a wee bit back, but i used my available motorcycle time on other projects. not now. i already swapped out the main bearings-- the old kitchen stove technique worked fine.

next thing to check was crank to camshaft interference. the megacycle 510-X2 cams have a lift of 0.375 inches at 0.020, as opposed to the stock 0.322, and they supposedly bang into a stock crank. but there was no question of any interference with the billet one from RoDy. not even close. camshaft to tappet block is another matter:



i still have the tappet blocks pressed into the original 30-over cylinders that came on this motor when i got it, so i set it out on the bench to see how bad the interference would be. pretty bad, in fact:



^^^this is the exhaust cam, but the intake was just as bad. so tomorrow i'll get out my nicest file and start shortening the ears on the tappet blocks.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/22/15 11:19 pm

I've never seen these assembled... Is there no other way to get the clearance, like shimming up those tappet blocks, and shortening the push-rods?

I'm just wondering if the tappets need all the support they can get down there. Especially with a hotter cam.
Posted By: mangold

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/22/15 11:46 pm

I've got the same cams in the '55 TR5 LSR bike I'm building. In addition to the tappet block ears being an issue, the tappets would hit the bottom of the tappet block itself before full lift. Considered shimming the tappet blocks, but ultimately shimmed the barrel itself, since I'm building a blown motor and lowering the compression a bit will be beneficial.
Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/23/15 2:21 am

Originally Posted By mangold
since I'm building a blown motor and lowering the compression a bit will be beneficial.


Do tell. Type of blower? Drive ratio? Comp ratio? I've got a blower on a Weslake single. Haven't had a chance to run it in anger. A bit nervous as to how it will work.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/23/15 8:41 am

Originally Posted By Zombie
I've never seen these assembled... Is there no other way to get the clearance, like shimming up those tappet blocks, and shortening the push-rods?

I'm just wondering if the tappets need all the support they can get down there. Especially with a hotter cam.


It's more common to trim the tappet block as needed...There's limited support for the block where it presses into the barrel so it's a compromise either way...

Kevin, It finally sunk in you're using megacycle X2 cams...Did you consider the Sifton 460 also?
You bought them from Megacycle? Same price as the various parts vendors charge for the same cams?
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/23/15 9:57 am

hmmm

mangold, ihaven't looked at the tappets themselves for clearance. that was a brainless oversight, but easy to check. the cam lobes fit in between the ears on the tappet blocks with no difficulty. if they also fit in there (with clearance) with the tappets installed then it should be good to go.

if not, then it's time to visit my machinist again. i don't mind minimally trimming the ears with careful hand work, but grinding away at the inside of the tappet bearing surface is more problematic.

hillbilly, i went with this cam on the advice of jim duer at megacycle, who is the guy that designs these things. i told him what i wanted to do, and he steered me to this. the conversation was interesting, because this cam is not their hottest-looking, on paper. they make other cams with higher lift-- including the sifton 460-- and other cams with more duration. i asked him about the duration, and he said that this "would have no trouble filling the cylinders if the porting was correct . . . "

what i know about camshafts is that i mostly don't know anything about them. there's so many variables just with the cam itself, let alone the intake and exhaust, that i look for people who've made a specialty of it, and listen to what they tell me.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/23/15 10:56 am

Selecting a cam is really one of the easier processes (on paper) but you have to know the numbers.

You need bore/stroke/intake velocity/intake volume/exhaust velocity/exhaust volume, and the properties of the exhaust, ie: tuned to scavenge or a back pressure system.

The only other piece you need to know is what rpm the engine is going to run at peak efficiency.
I try to shoot for 5% over the needed volume in the cam I select. That's a pretty high number. Generally 2-3% is all you can get from an off the shelf cam.

A long duration cam is milder or more evenly spread across the rpm range as to the power it makes, and a high lift cam has it's power set to a narrow rpm range.

The one necessity is having a complete flow report on your heads. The intake, and exhaust can be estimated from known numbers but if there has been any work done to your heads, you need those numbers.

Edit:
It looks like a lot of effort to install an aftermarket cam in these engines. I'm not saying that is good or bad, just something else I didn't expect.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/23/15 12:21 pm

Originally Posted By kevin




what i know about camshafts is that i mostly don't know anything about them. there's so many variables just with the cam itself, let alone the intake and exhaust, that i look for people who've made a specialty of it, and listen to what they tell me.


Pretty much the same for me..But what I have learned is the cam,intake and exhaust must work as a team. Change one and it affects the others.
Cams on the B range engines are a big deal because changing them means a total engine disassembly...
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/23/15 12:36 pm

Originally Posted By kevin


what i know about camshafts is that i mostly don't know anything about them. there's so many variables just with the cam itself, let alone the intake and exhaust, that i look for people who've made a specialty of it, and listen to what they tell me.


I hear you buddy, I thought I was beginning to understand quite a bit about cams, then found I knew even less than I thought I knew when I started. I know where those number sit ( love centres) make a big difference and other cams to the X12 which I bought which had the same LCA but different durations and lift altered the performance profile considerably, from being a good mid-top end cam like the x12 to being a high rpm cam. You can piss about with duration with different cam follower grinds but not lift. I know also that retarding or advancing the cam a degree or two will make a big difference on where the power is ( I learnt that early on) too far advanced and if doesn't matter what you do to flow, you will not go above a certain speed, too far retarded and you'll hit an annoying flat spot.

I thinking picking the cam to what is recommended is a good starting point, and then tailoring the ports and exhaust, ignition timing etc to get the best out of your setup. ( it's easier to write it than do it)
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/23/15 1:44 pm

right now the head is still in tennessee very long on the slow boat. but the head guy suggested megacycle, and I've long run one of tbeir midrange cams in my street bike.

coordinating the cam with the head planning was the first thing I did. ive got some starting recommendations on intake and exhaust too.

zombie, tbere sre so many things that affect cams that you can go crazy trying to control them all. in the dnd I think much of it will boil down to cut and test, change and test

repeat
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/23/15 2:24 pm

I've said this before... Head guys will know from experience which cams, and timings will work with which head profiles.

If you want to/have work without a recommendation, it is all in the math. The cam manufacturers all have extensive reports on their cams, but you HAVE to know the numbers on your end.

The benefit we all share is the many years of experimenting others have done with these engines so it comes down to word of mouth.
Say for example a stock head, and xyz cam. Then a large valve head, and abc cam. It's all been done for us before.
I have also asked about which cams work best for a specific engine, and purpose, and was given the answers. I will still do the math myself before I build but it is great to have a recommendation as a reference.

Mr. Mark on the flow bench thread may well benefit from a custom grind cam. Using his numbers, and anticipated use for the engine he can have a cam cut to match his head/system. At the very least he will know what to look for in a cam, and can use the manufacturers spec sheets to find a very near perfect match.

If I get ambitious later I'll post up a formula, and an example but it may take a couple of hours to find the correct (engine) spec(s), and put it together. It's really just a matter of finding a lift/duration on any given cam to allow the cylinder to fill in a given amount of time, and then if you are lucky, adding 2-5% surplus for a more manageable power band.

Adding a blower/turbo is a whole 'nuther animal. It almost takes the cam out of the equation. A good match is of course best but you will make more power over normally aspirated even with the wrong cam.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/23/15 3:14 pm

One of the problems is I have never seen any reliable flow info on a stock or modified Triumph head. Anyone else have something? It's not like a Chevy V8 where on any given day there dozens of heads on the flow bench and 50 test engines being flogged on the dyno or track...
I don't even like to build engines all that much so don't expect me to set a flow bench grin
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/23/15 10:26 pm

MAP had some specifics about about triumphs available back when they were more active. mostly rules of thumb, but interesting nonetheless:

Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/24/15 7:00 am

#6 is the only one that looks decent with less valve angle..
Kevin, to me the Megacycle X2 looks like like and enhanced Sifton #390. Based on my experience that should make good power 7000-7500 rpm.
You using Beehive springs?
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/24/15 9:55 am

I was planning on the complete kibblewhite set up-- springs, 6mm valves, and retainers. lots of talk with megacycle and the port guy. megacycle was adamant that this particular cam be used with their springs and retainers. they've had a lot of years working with their metal and parts and were confident that it would all work together.

the port guy felt the same way.I like the oval beehive springs, though. they've been around in auto racing for ages and seem to deliver what they promise. so we're going with the megacycle spring kit and the kibblewhite valves. 6mm is light enough to rival titanium at the relatively low rpms this motor will run at, and it doesnt have the metallurgical issues that titanium does. as well as not costing $150 a valve.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/24/15 11:05 am

I've been looking all over the net for specs on the T120 heads, and can't find anything on flow rates!!!
Very strange that it's not common knowledge.

I don't get that MAP chart. What exactly is it supposed to be showing?

+1 on the Kiblewhite springs. Mr. Healy recommended them to me, and I did a lot of reading from there. I will be purchasing them myself.
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/24/15 11:05 am

Are the KW valves 6mm as standard? I'm curious as the BSA valves are 5/16 ( close to 8mm) it's a big chunk of air flow interference removed.

The #6 has a better valve angle and down ward flow than the picture above it, but the port shape in the above picture is better.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/24/15 12:40 pm

Triumph valves are 5/16 stock.....

Branch and CR Axtell did a lot work on Triumph heads and accumulated years of data, both are gone now and apparently so is the info.
Who ever the head work Tim's Joyce's WERA/AHRMA Triumph knows something, 85 HP at 8500 rpm from 750 cc's. His bike was sponsored by MAP and I believe Big D. When I asked Tim where to get my 650 Triumph LSR head done, without hesitation he said he would only let Rob Hall touch a head.....Hall did do my bike's head but I'm sure Joyce's bike heads are far more modified if they were done by the same guy.
Kevin has a very well respected guy doing his bike's head...I bet he'll show a few pics ...
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/24/15 6:03 pm

That's some HP, even for a 750! I wonder at what RPM it made its max torque, that's the make or break number IMO.

I've seen the Big D name on a few bikes, a bonneville bike as well I think.
Posted By: J. Charles Smith

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/24/15 6:30 pm

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike

Who ever the head work Tim's Joyce's WERA/AHRMA Triumph knows something...


Not sure, but that might have been Tom Sharp's work.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/24/15 9:48 pm

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
. . .
Branch and CR Axtell did a lot work on Triumph heads and accumulated years of data, both are gone now and apparently so is the info . . . Kevin has a very well respected guy doing his bike's head...I bet he'll show a few pics ...


jerry branch never answered my letters back in the day, but i can hardly blame him.

the port guy doing my head is leo goff, who knows more about it than i will ever be able to accumulate. i'll post anything i can-- it's not like there's any competition for this kind of work.

zombie, the head cross sections were from an old MAP catalog, formerly available on the net. i'll see whether i can figure out a way to make it accessible.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/25/15 12:18 am

CYLINDER HEAD MODIFICATIONS

Looking back again to our previous discussion on volumetric
efficiency, we found that the stock Triumph cylinder head was
unable to supply enough air to obtain maximum performance from
the 750 engine. It would be nice to come up with a formula that
would predict exactly how much horsepower increase we could
expect from each modification. This is not possible because there
are so many variables involved. We can, however, pretty closely
calculate the potential horsepower that can be obtained with a
given amount of air flow. By test, a stock Triumph Bonneville
head will flow about 61 CFM (cubic feet per minute) of air thru
each of its intake ports. These tests were conducted at l0-inches of
water (a term that relates to the test instrument on the flow bench).
How much flow do we need in order for our modified 750 to reach
its maximum potential HP? Thru long experience, several formulas
have been developed to predict not only the amount of air flow
needed, but also what the actual HP potential will be and at what
RPM it will be developed.

Air flow necessary for a given CID = Displacement of 1 cyl. x 2.15
x 1/2 max. safe RPM divided by 1728.

Now lets plug in the figures from our 750 (45 CID) Bonneville.
For RPM well use the factory rating of 7000. Thus 22.5 x 2.15 x
3500 divided by 1728 = 98 CFM. Note: this formula is based on
l2" of water which converts to 89.9 CFM at 10" (see formula page-
Appendix A).

Now that weve calculated that we need 89.9 CFM for maximum
potential HP we can use another formula to calculate what the HP
might be:

For a fully modified street motorcycle.

Potential HP per cylinder = CFM x .35. Thus 89.9 x .35 = 31.4 x
2 cyl. = 62.8 potential HP.

For full race engine the factor is changed from .35 to .4 thus with
the same air flow we have 89.9 x .4 = 35.96 HP per cyl. x 2 = 71.92
potential HP. These formulas have proven to be remarkably
accurate over time.

The illustration in Figure #l (Appendix A) represents a typical
intake tract. This consists of the carburetor, carburetor adapter,
intake port, valve and seat. Extensive flow research has established
certain guidelines for efficient intake tract design:

l. Carburetor size should be 86% of intake valve diameter.
2. Flow losses arise from changes in direction and decreases in
velocity (port bends and expansions).
3. Material should be removed primarily from the outside of port
bends, not the inside. Flow will increase due to the increase in
the radius of the bend.
4. Port length and surface finish are not important to flow.
5. The greatest flow loss results from poor design of the port floor
(the area opposite the valve guide). This controls air flow from
about .250" to maximum lift. Very small changes in the angle
or location of the port floor can result in flow losses or gains of
as much as l0%. It is obvious that without a flow bench such
small deviations are virtually impossible to detect.
6. The second greatest flow loss in the intake port is due to the
expansion of the air out from around the valve. This makes the
area from 1/2" below the valve to 1/2" above the valve the most
critical part of the port. Just below the valve seat the port
diameter should decrease to about .85 of the valve diameter.
7. The valve seat shape has a substantial effect on flow from .050 to .250" lift.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/25/15 12:22 am

Lets expand on these points:

VALVE SIZES - Intake valve sizes in hemi or semi-hemi 2-valve
combustion chambers are limited by the bore size or the largest
diameter of the chamber itself. As a rule the larger the valve the
greater the flow. This does not prove true, however, if the valve
is so large that it is masked by the cylinder wall or the edge of the
chamber. In addition, the largest valves may not flow more
because of port restrictions that cannot be corrected without
extensive port redesign involving welding and remachining.
Before going on lets talk a bit about RPM. Note that in previous
calculations we used the factorys figure. This is the RPM at which
the stock peak HP was developed. Shouldnt our modified engine
be able to develop its peak HP at a higher RPM? Certainly,
modifications like racing cams and improved air flow will usually
raise the power peak. Again we have a time-tested formula that can
predict the RPM at which peak power will be developed.

RPM =
Lets apply this using our previously calculated Triumph flow
figures.

(2000 divided by 22.5 CID) x 89.9 CFM = 7991 RPM.

In other words the HP of a fully modified street Triumph would
be about 62-63 HP at nearly 8000 RPM. The question is can we
safely run this engine 8000 RPM? Maximum safe RPM is
determined by mechanical considerations, namely the valve gear,
the piston speed (determined by the stroke) and the strength of the bottom end components like the rods, crankshaft and crankcases. Obviously no mathematical formula could take all these things into account. Its been proven down thru the years that for reliability engines should not be operated for any length of time at piston speeds exceeding 3700 ft. per min. To calculate safe RPM use this formula:

SAFE RPM = 22,200 divided by stroke in inches.
As with most older designs our Triumph has a longish stroke of
82 mm. Converting this to inches, .03937 x 82 = 3.228 in.
Thus SAFE RPM would be 22,200 divided by 3.228 = 6877 RPM.

Note that this is over 1000 rpm less than our predicted peak HP
RPM. Does this defeat us? No, it only means that we should not
operate this engine for long periods at over 7000 RPM without
expecting reliability problems. If we can get the engine to rev that
high 7500 to 8000 RPM shift points during competition events
would be reasonable. Just remember, constantly exceeding safe
RPM limits without necessary modifications will almost guarantee
a blowup!
TUNED INTAKE LENGTH - It is possible to improve volumetric
efficiency by harnessing the natural kinetic energy and the resonant
pulses that occur during the intake cycle. When the intake valve
closes, a pressure pulse bounces back out the intake tract, and then
in again toward the valve. By making the intake tract the proper
length, the returning pulse can be timed to arrive at top dead center
of the next intake cycle, forcing extra air in and keeping exhaust
gases out of the intake port. In order to utilize this pulse, the intake
tract, from the carburetor bell mouth to the inlet valve, must be the
correct length. See fig.#2 (Appendix A). There are actually
several pulses that can be used corresponding to the 2nd, 3rd and
4th time the pulse is reflected. These pulses are called harmonics.
The 2nd harmonic being the strongest. There is a simple formula
for calculating the length using the second harmonic.
Tuned Length (in inches) is 132,000 divided by RPM
For instance, if our usable peak RPM was 7000: 132,000 divided
by 7000 - 18.8 inches. This is a very long tract and difficult to
accommodate on a motorcycle. The use of the 3rd harmonic will
result in a slightly shorter tract:
97,000 divided by 7000 = 13.8 inches.
Still a rather long distance. What real benefits can we derive from
intake tuning? The real joker in this whole thing is that although
we may derive some peak power from increasing the ram effect, it
will only work during a relatively narrow RPM band (a little over
1000 RPM usually). It also has the effect of reducing engine power
outside of the narrow RPM band. Is it worth it? For an all-out road
racer it may be. For a modified street bike we will probably lose
more than we gain. A close look at the latest factory road racers
would indicate that this theory has been all but abandoned and
carburetors are now being placed as close to the head as possible
with relatively short inlet bells. Perhaps the mid range losses were
found to be greater than the top end gain.
VALVE LIFT - Air flow thru the engine is controlled by valve lift.
The further the valve lifts the greater the flow, up to a point. Some
racing cams open valves as high as .30 x valve diameter (dia). In
actual practice flow seldom increases much at over .25 valve dia.
lift. Cam designers realize this, but lift is often overshot in order
to provide faster lifts at low valve openings. Remember, we need
the highest possible flow over the entire range of lift. On the flow
bench flow is measured at .050 increments over the full range of
lift. Efforts are always made to maximize flow at low lifts as well
as high.
POTENTIAL PROBLEMS WITH VERY LARGE VALVES
AND HIGH LIFTS - During the overlap period when both the
intake and exhaust valves are open large valves with high lifts may
tangle (touch together). If this is the case the only cure is to either
reduce valve size and/or lift or to sink the valves deeper into the
head by grinding the seats lower. Sinking the intake valve will
have a negative effect on flow, sometimes very much so, and
should be avoided. The exhaust valve can be sunk somewhat
without ill effect. Another problem that rears its ugly head is
piston-valve interference. It is advisable to maintain at least .060"
between the valves and the piston at overlap top dead center. In
order to do this the valve cutaways in the piston may have to be cut deeper.

These deep cutaways reduce the compression ratio and
may have a masking effect on the intake valves. Taking all this into
account you should keep valve sizes and cam lifts within reasonable
limits.
IDEAL PORT SHAPES - For maximum flow the ideal port would
be as straight as possible, tapering down from carburetor diameter
to .85 of the carburetor bore just below the valve seat. There would
be no sudden change of diameter and the radius of all curves should
be perfectly blended and as large as possible. In real life this ideal
is seldom attainable.
MODIFYING PORT SHAPES - Fig. #3 (Appendix A) represents
a typical full hemi combustion chamber design. Valves are
inclined at a 90 degree included angle. This port looks good at first
glance. There are serious problems, however. One is the angle at
which the air flow approaches the valve. Air flow does not hit the
valve seat at a right angle. The port is too low causing turbulence
around the valve seat that reduces flow. The low port also creates
another problem - excessive charge loss. Charge loss occurs
during the overlap periods when both the intake and exhaust valves
are open. Part of the fresh charge coming in tends to be lost right
out the exhaust port particularly at lower engine speeds. This
situation is aggravated by a racing cam that opens the intake earlier
and closes the exhaust later. Some charge loss is unavoidable, but
can be minimized by careful port modification. Fig. #4 (Appendix
A) shows a hemi port modified to improve both the flow around the
valve and to redirect the charge downward away from the exhaust
port to minimize charge loss. Fig. #5 (Appendix A) indicates a
more extensive modification for full race applications where the
whole port is raised by adding metal to the floor and remachining
the roof of the port to provide even better flow and less charge loss.
Fig. #6 (Appendix A) illustrates the semi-hemi combustion
chamber. This design is a result of the manufacturers efforts to
improve flow, reduce charge loss, and provide a more compact
combustion chamber that improves flame travel and shortens the
time required to burn the fuel/air mix during the power stroke. The
valve angle is narrowed from 90 degrees to 60 degrees. The valves
are more upright. This nicely curved port shape above the valve
allows the air flow to approach the valve at right angles all the way
around. The semi-hemi usually requires less modification for
maximum flow and is probably the best 2-valve combustion
chamber design. It allows maximum valve sizes with good flow as
well as higher compression ratios due to more efficient combustion.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/25/15 12:27 am

i recognize that this^^^ stuff is rudimentary to a lot of people with more experience at this, but its an example of what's available in the net-- not much more than this, in fact.

this particular set was from the port guy who worked with marino perna for some time at MAP. there's more specifics than this in the MAP catalog.

is there an interest in the rest?
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/25/15 1:04 am

Originally Posted By mangold
I've got the same cams in the '55 TR5 LSR bike I'm building. In addition to the tappet block ears being an issue, the tappets would hit the bottom of the tappet block itself before full lift. Considered shimming the tappet blocks, but ultimately shimmed the barrel itself, since I'm building a blown motor and lowering the compression a bit will be beneficial.


mangold, without a base gasket under the jugs, my cams will not fit under the tappets as they are installed in the tappet blocks. they bang.

too dark in the shop to actually measure the clearance. i'm curious as to what it is, because people tell me that they don't run a base gasket, successfully.

i'm looking at solid copper--there's a company that makes rocker box gaskets for T120s and T150s.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/25/15 1:49 am

Originally Posted By kevin
CYLINDER HEAD MODIFICATIONS



Air flow necessary for a given CID = Displacement of 1 cyl. x 2.15
x 1/2 max. safe RPM divided by 1728.




So far I have only read to this point and I am anticipating an orgasm by the time I finish reading this article.

It is exactly the information I was looking for. The head flow characteristics are what have been missing. With this information, a whole mew breed of super Triumphs should come rolling forward.

Well, like most other things I think are brilliant... it's been done before. But not by me. To the Bat cave!!!

Mr.Kevin, you are my hero!
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/25/15 5:27 am

I don't know how I have missed that from the catalogue in the past but I believe it's given me the numbers I need to calculate port size.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/25/15 5:58 am

Originally Posted By kevin
[quote=mangold]

too dark in the shop to actually measure the clearance. i'm curious as to what it is, because people tell me that they don't run a base gasket, successfully.

i'm looking at solid copper--there's a company that makes rocker box gaskets for T120s and T150s.


My race Triumph along with street bike have no rocker or cylinder base gaskets. I use Permatex anaerobic sealer.They don't leak..
Lack of base gasket was necessary to get the piston to head quench where it belongs using the MAP pistons. Quench is important to performance,grinding a bit on the tappet blocks and or trimming the flywheel for clearance is secondary...
Eliminating soft gaskets makes things a bit more rigid but copper or aluminum gaskets would be fine.
MAP has copper cylinder base gaskets of various thickness.
I use Smith Bros push rods made to a length to suit the rocker geometry...
Posted By: Mark Parker

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/25/15 8:58 am

That stuff from the old MAP catalogue is really worth while stuff, it's good of them to share that.

The A65 has a 70deg included valve angle, which is cool for A65 owners.

An XR750 has a 75mm stroke and red lines above 9000RPM. According to the formula an A65 with 80x74mm bore and stroke would need 115.5CFM @ 10"w to max out at 9000 RPM. The RPM calculator says 7520 RPM is safe for the 74mm stroke, so, like the Harley, piston speed would be about 1500RPM over that. As would Tim's Triumph. Can we workout about what his head needs to be flowing for that RPM and power?

The formulas look very good for determining what to aim for.

My friend tested a std A65 head at about 66CFM @ 10"w which calculates around 46HP using the formula and that could be more or less doubled if the A65 was built to stay together at the high revs.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/25/15 9:38 am

We have to keep in mind that this thread is primarily about Kevin's LSR bike. LSR is like a longer drag race and the engine can be stressed more for short duration racing..
Depending on the competition and the tuner's/rider's desire to win ,taking equipment beyond limit and the risk of breakage is part of the game I suppose.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/25/15 12:36 pm

Thanks for posting this Kevin.

The numbers from MAP re-affirm what I am shooting for. 60Hp, 7-8k rpm, and a reliable engine.
I knew these little buggers had it in them, and I also knew the head was the weak link.

Mo one had those numbers to verify this.


Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike

Depending on the competition and the tuner's/rider's desire to win ,taking equipment beyond limit and the risk of breakage is part of the game I suppose.


Well put.
There have always been three "schools" in racing. Run it to the edge, (not beyond) and pray it survives.
Never run to the edge. Just enjoy the day but don't expect to win anything.
Run it like it's stolen.

I have always been in the first group. I like to trust my builds more than I trust the company that made the parts (in most cases). I just keep looking for better parts.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/25/15 3:54 pm

I plan to see Kevin on his fresh LSR bike taking the engine to redline in every gear. The determined look on his face ..It takes about 45 seconds to cover the mile from a standing start with a terminal speed in the 120's MPH...Enough time for the rider to imagine the carnage if the crankshaft falls out onto the road.
Posted By: konon

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/25/15 7:03 pm

That could hurt at 120+ MPH
Posted By: NickL

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/25/15 7:44 pm

Same old,,,Same old,,,, TO WIN, YOU MUST FINISH!

I've driven too many miles to too many circuits with very highly tuned engines, only to come back with weeks of repair work, 'til next time...... If you are doing 10-12 meetings a year as a privateer, you are better off loosing a few BHP in my opinion. (It makes you try harder anyway!)
Posted By: Triless

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/25/15 7:59 pm

Spot on, NickL! I would also add that its important to be able to ride the thing properly in the first place, or all the boogie woogie parts will be as useful as a cast iron parachute anyway!
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/26/15 12:01 am

lol

i honestly don't know what i'm doing, so most of my building is designed to let me mess up to a degree without blowing. i hope, anyway.

i try to pay attention to the tach, but i confess i've seen some puckering needle positions this summer. i need to quit that on my old streetbike until i change out the rods and get somebody to crack test the old crank.

on the serious machine, it's theoretically simple to build it tough. costs a bit more, and you have to try to figure out which weaknesses are the ones to address first. but i don't know how well it will breathe yet. if it won't make horsepower over 7500 rpm, there isn't any point in going there and breaking it.

i keep thinking of alp and his ancient 650 pre-unit, though:

i can't make out his sprockets in any pictures, but he goes 169.1 on this ancient thing. how fast is he spinning it?


to do 169?

Posted By: Mark Parker

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/26/15 5:45 am

Just did some calculations on Tim's Triumph, if he has 85HP at 8500RPM. It would need around 109CFM at 10"w or 182.6CFM at 28"w. Pretty sure he runs 40mm carbs. I doubt the valves would be std size. But whatever is done it's pretty amazing.

If breaking cranks is a concern it may be worth having the radiuss rolled. Roland Pike experimented with this at BSA and it cured the old small journal A7 crank from breaking. (BSA enlarged the journals on later models.)
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/26/15 7:03 am

Originally Posted By kevin
lol

i honestly don't know what i'm doing, so most of my building is designed to let me mess up to a degree without blowing. i hope, anyway.

i try to pay attention to the tach, but i confess i've seen some puckering needle positions this summer. i need to quit that on my old streetbike until i change out the rods and get somebody to crack test the old crank.

on the serious machine, it's theoretically simple to build it tough. costs a bit more, and you have to try to figure out which weaknesses are the ones to address first. but i don't know how well it will breathe yet. if it won't make horsepower over 7500 rpm, there isn't any point in going there and breaking it.

i keep thinking of alp and his ancient 650 pre-unit, though:

i can't make out his sprockets in any pictures, but he goes 169.1 on this ancient thing. how fast is he spinning it?


to do 169?

Alp says about 8000 rpm. His ancient engine in the photo has aluminum cylinders and aftermarket cases and Triumph crank..But he's not exactly an open book about his engine build....
Mark,on the Tim Joyce engine, John Healy told me some Triumph heads are so extensively modified the roof of the intake actually penetrated the cylinder head....
All the fast road racing Triumphs have billet cranks....and they also break sometimes.
I asked about who in the US has equipment to roll the crank radius and it all points to NASCAR engine shops...Maybe the more have the equipment now..?
Marino at MAP told me a 650 Triumph isn't too hard on cranks for short duration racing...And his experience says having the crank shot peened is the best treatment...


Like Kevin I just stumble through this stuff...The first runs on my 650 were brutal despite record speed because the rider used to fast shifting Japanese machines keep missing gears on many runs. One time he keep missing fourth (high gear) and crossed the finish line at 108 mph in third gear...That's 8200 rpm with the gearing at the time. The speed over ran the cam ,valves kissed the pistons...No damage on tear down but I had a hissy fit...Then he settled down ,no missed gears and the engine speed stays below 7200 rpm.
At Maine he says the tach needle fell off...I said don't look at it...
In the heat of competition,if a win would require abusing equipment, I would be ok with it provided the equipment crossed the finish line first...
Posted By: NickL

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/26/15 7:49 am

When those EN40 billet cranks go they put up a good show.
That stuff is glass hard, and when it goes it bloody goes!

I broke 3 standard triumph cranks in 2 seasons of racing back in the 70's each time it took the cams, rods and the cases out with it, oh what joy.......... It was just as well we had a pretty bad prang which stopped us then otherwise i'd still be in a debtors prison..........
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/26/15 1:48 pm

Originally Posted By NickL
. . . each time it took the cams, rods and the cases out with it, oh what joy . . .


you do this just to cause me distress, don't you?
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/26/15 4:07 pm

How did the motor on the side car fair up nick? I'm asking as its a Beezer motor. The motor I'm slowly getting put together is going to have a lightened crank, one of the hopes is the fly wheel weight or rather lack of it will have fewer flexing forces on the crank.

The rolled radius Mark mentioned I believe was used on some old VW's, it stopped them cracking.
Posted By: NickL

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/26/15 6:14 pm

That was a pre-unit morgo in the sidecar.
When we went back into it as a classic setup in the 90's we went beezer.
The beezer crank is shorter stroke and much stronger, i've never known one break, different kettle of fish Allan. Regular use to 8000 was no problem. Even without end feed and a 740 kit on it.


Sorry about the comment Kevin but it's true, mind you none of the gear we bought back then was new as we were known as shoestring racing, we were still apprentices i think and the pay was bloody awful. Days of foraging around wreckers yards and the weeks of saving for a camshaft or something, we must have been bloody nuts!
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/26/15 10:08 pm

aagh

nick, the thought of all these parts banging together is something i'd like to avoid. as fast as possible but still together at the end is where i want to be.

anyway, stuck the cases and the jugs together with gaskets this afternoon. an old made-in-england base gasket from god knows where measured an average of 0.0157 inches thick. the intake tappets would just clear the cam, but the exhaust tappets interfered. took a new emgo gasket (measured 0.0195) and added it in on top of the other one, for a total base gasket thickness of some 0.035 inches. with two gaskets, the intake tappets cleared by the thickness of the second gasket, and the clearance on the exhaust was a mere 0.004, which is more or less what i need for running clearances at high rpm, i think?

that's a pretty thick stack under there. MAP sells composition gaskets at 0.031. 0.052, and 0.062, but i can have a copper one cut to 0.21 or 0.42-inches, and then check on the pushrod length. i've already got some kibblewhite tubular pushrods, but the very different requirements for intake and exhaust are steering me to smiths bros.

i have NOT checked the tappet blocks installed in my new jugs. obviously i'll have to do that before i figure the pushrods out.
Posted By: NickL

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/26/15 11:21 pm

A bit of messing about with pushrod length and the use of valve lash caps can optimise the actual valve lift too. As i remember we used c15 pushrods with the 3 inch radius followers and old spitfire/thruxton cam setup. The pushrods were a bit shorter i think.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/26/15 11:40 pm

I ran hardened lash caps on my morgo at one time. heaven knows where they are now. I'll simply have to put it together and see.

ive got some copper rocker box gaskets at the moment. cant remember how thick. by the time it's all done I'll have it sorted.

cue to canned laugher.
Posted By: NickL

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/27/15 1:14 am

As long as it's close enough for jazz, it'll be ok.........
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/27/15 4:06 am

If using paper or copper for your base gasket, your going to have a small amount of crush. I would say go for more gap at the cylinder base, either with copper or a laser cut steel sheet, ( the copper you wouldn't have to fit paper gaskets each side) and skim the barrel to give you the right amount of compression, but if you do that you will have problems with those push rod tubes crazy (it was one of the few decent things BSA ever did was to have a cast in pushrod tunnel).
Posted By: Triless

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/27/15 4:41 am

"One of the few decent things BSA ever did........ " . Allan, are you feeling well? What about their modern thinking re bore / stroke on the A 65's. Their combustion chambers, the rear mounted camshaft promoting better cooling to the front of the cylinders. In my opinion they only buggered up with crank location, and poor metal spec for their oil pumps. And a touch of michael the mouse in the gearchange mechanism!
And, if they had developed their Daytona 500 A50 twins in '66 and '67,as a short stroke that would"ve worried the Triumphs ( only worried, mind!)
Dick Mann once said the A 65 was a great racing engine, just change the conrods!
Yep, nearly could've been as good as a Triumph!



Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/27/15 6:05 am

Kevin.. are you throwing away quench by raising the cylinder?
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/27/15 6:10 am

You have only listed a handfull your self laughing

BSA had all the makings of a faster engine than the triumph, but they weren't! Doesn't mean some of us can't still try though. If someone really got behind the BSA brand and really worked on a head similar to the weslake ( or any modern engine design) and ported correctly, I think the A65's would be a real crowd pleaser.

Regards the A50, yes they should have short stroked them like the late A7's were, although a well setup one with spitfire cam makes for a good competitor against my 400/4 Honda.

Sorry I digress,

Kevin, do you have any more pictures for us to drool over? ( really enjoying this project!)
Posted By: RPM

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/27/15 9:48 am

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
Triumph valves are 5/16 stock.....

Branch and CR Axtell did a lot work on Triumph heads and accumulated years of data, both are gone now and apparently so is the info.
Who ever the head work Tim's Joyce's WERA/AHRMA Triumph knows something, 85 HP at 8500 rpm from 750 cc's. His bike was sponsored by MAP and I believe Big D. When I asked Tim where to get my 650 Triumph LSR head done, without hesitation he said he would only let Rob Hall touch a head.....Hall did do my bike's head but I'm sure Joyce's bike heads are far more modified if they were done by the same guy.
Kevin has a very well respected guy doing his bike's head...I bet he'll show a few pics ...


85hp on gasoline from a Triumph 750 twin? Must have been tested on a California dyno or what Jack Wilson used to call a "prune picker" dyno.
Tim"s bike was fast but most I have ever seen on a Triumph twin is 75hp. You can tell Tim I said so. We have raced together many times and had great battles. He is a tremendous rider and a good friend.
Anything over 65hp on gas on a Triumph twin is quite a an achievement.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/27/15 10:35 am

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
Kevin.. are you throwing away quench by raising the cylinder?


i don't yet know of a simple way to increase the clearance between the cam nose and cam followers, tony. filing a bit off the ears of the tappet blocks is easy to do, but the tappets themselves cannot rise high enough in the recess to allow the cam to rotate.

these are billet cams, not regrinds, so the base circle is (presumeably) stock diameter. if they were regrinds, then this wouldn't be an issue, because the same lift would be achieved by just letting the tappets sink farther down, rather than rising farther up.

the choices seem to be to raise the whole barrel and lose quench and compression, or to raise the tappet blocks themselves in the jugs and lose side support, center locating pin and pushrod tube match, or to machine the underside of the tappet blocks themselves.

stock composition gaskets seem to be around 0.015 to 0.020 inches. i once ran my street bike with two or three base gaskets to lower compression, and didn't like the rocker arm geometry using stock pushrods.

with a 1:1 rocker arm ratio, to keep the 0.004 clearance on the exhaust valves means i need to come up with 0.035 inches somewhere. sheet copper comes in 0.042 and 0.050. that's equivalent to two or three composition base gaskets, a serious compression loss.

so i'm not sure what to do at the moment. i'll call megacycle and see what they say, if barb lets me get a word in edgewise.

lol
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/27/15 10:37 am

Originally Posted By Allan Gill
If using paper or copper for your base gasket, your going to have a small amount of crush. I would say go for more gap at the cylinder base, either with copper or a laser cut steel sheet, ( the copper you wouldn't have to fit paper gaskets each side) and skim the barrel to give you the right amount of compression, but if you do that you will have problems with those push rod tubes crazy (it was one of the few decent things BSA ever did was to have a cast in pushrod tunnel).


nothing is simple, is it? wonder if dave madigan has those adjustable pushrod tubes for T120s i think he was considering making.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/27/15 1:55 pm

A few things I have done in the past when facing a similar issue, Ie: raising the jugs..

I have used everything from tissue paper to parchment as "shims" on one side or both sides of a base gasket. Aluminium may also be a material to consider for a base gasket. I have cut several base gaskets myself up to 5mm with basic tools. You could also go as far down as aluminium foil to make up some space.

This all comes down to HillBilly's question on the squish band... Milling the head after all the shimming is the only solution I know of. It's not expensive to do. Maybe 75 bucks.

Lastly, I'm not sure on this one but does anyone know if the Harley adjustable push rod tubes can be made to work?
If not I believe a nice set can be made by using the stock PRT-s, and a second "donor" set. An inside pipe expander should give you the slip join you need.

Just my thoughts...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/27/15 2:43 pm

i need to pull the guide blocks out of that old set of jugs and test fit them using the new ones first, zombie. it's odd that the camshaft has such different clearances in the intake (0.024+) versus the exhaust (0.004) using an 0.035 base gasket stack. same lift on both cams, by the book. i'm wondering if the jugs were modified. i'd forgotten what a botch-up this motor was when i disassembled it.

i also haven't miked the tappets themselves- they're used ones, resurfaced, which has not been a problem in the past.

but i'm wondering now whether the tappet blocks were not fully seated in the jugs. i need to pull them out and tap them into the new jugs and re-measure. won't help the exhaust, but will explain the greater intake clearances.

btw, apparently dave madigan does have adjustable T120 push rod tubes. if you haven't seen his work, search around and look at the photos here.
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/27/15 4:52 pm

I think the fact the triumph has vertical pushrod movement gives you a little room to improvise without altering rocker ratios.

This next food for thought idea comes from my own bike. My A65 race motor is a long rod with a70 Pistons. It might be a consideration to have a set of rods made up 1mm or 1.5mm longer than standard. You can then play sound with base gaskets until you get the right squish. If you need a different length pushrod to keep the rocket arm ratio true, Ed V might be able to have a set made up to your desired length.

I'm using a set of A10 rods in my motor, the rod difference from what I really want is .020" (0.5mm) being the pushrod tunnel is cast, I can machine a fair amount off the cylinder until I get the right amount of squish.

Btw, on a set of rods from Thunder engineering, standard size cost about 380, custom sizes were about 1/4 more in prize. A longer rod certainly won't hinder the bikes ability to rev!
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/27/15 5:29 pm

Kevin,you have to clearance the tappet block face that contacts the tappet at full lift..It's done using a file on the block held in a vise...Is this the problem?
The only rocker ratio you need to maintain is the sweep of the rocker top on the valve...not close to the edge..Smith Bros will make any length steel push rod for 9 bucks each...
You must maintain performance so modify what needs to be modified...
You know all this .. If my bike can go like stink with piston valve reliefs cut with a hand held die grinder while the lower end of the engine is still assembled...Then you can do it grin wink
You also have a Triumph.....there are dreaded watermelon engine bikes closing in...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/27/15 5:36 pm

I know.

just trying to make sure I understand the considerations.

lots of people know lots more than me about these old motors. they don't always volunteer what they know.

I am very grateful to those that have the time and interest to speak up.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/27/15 5:39 pm

. . . and I plan on shutting the watermelons down decisively.
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/27/15 6:16 pm

All this is getting me excited into getting mine worked on.
Posted By: konon

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/27/15 6:49 pm

Watermelon engines! That's just mean.
Posted By: Triless

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/27/15 6:53 pm

Good grief, Kevin and Tony, now you have really upset the unit BSA twin mob! I can hear them choking on their bread and milk from here!
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/27/15 7:15 pm

Originally Posted By Triless
Good grief, Kevin and Tony, now you have really upset the unit BSA twin mob! I can hear them choking on their bread and milk from here!


I believe the watermelon remark from from one of the top Triumph engineers when he first saw the A-65...He also said the intake ports were poorly done.. You gotta appreciate the irony of the statement coming from Triumph guys...
Originally I was going to run a Norton or BSA because of the better combustion chamber design...But I am more of a Triumph guy...
Posted By: koncretekid

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/27/15 10:55 pm

"is there an interest in the rest?"

Since that article pretty well sums up everything I've learned in my 10 or so years of building my own race motors, I'd be interested in the rest of the info.

The comment about maximum piston speed is probably referring to mostly stock components, as modern forged pistons and racing connecting rods are good for something around 5000 fpm so the crankshaft becomes the weak link for our old motors.

Also, it wasn't mentioned that exhaust tuning can also play a part, especially in conjunction with tuned intake. There are some formula on the net that will give you a number to use, but without dyno work, it's hard to confirm.

Thanks for posting.

Tom
Posted By: NickL

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/28/15 2:10 am

The 'watermelon engine' mob..... I love that!

When fitting some of the later repro tappet blocks i've noticed varying thickness anyway, so milling off some to allow the followers to sit up further would be normal when using a lively cam.


The shape of the unit beezer is horrible to look at, i know, BUT it is a great shape from the strength point of view. Triless would not be highlighting any good points with the old heaps if he thought otherwise. As for development, if there was a head around that screamed for overhead cams and 8 valves it was the A65 at that time. Digression again i know......
Posted By: Mark Parker

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/28/15 3:14 am

If the crank is the limiting part fitting an offset crank 90 or 72deg may help. Norton cranks seem fine bolted together and we've been using a cut and bolted std A65 crank in a 750 power melon since the 1990s without a problem.
Posted By: NickL

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/28/15 3:30 am

I'll second the Norton crank thing but it's a fair amount of work tom fit one. Making it offset strengthens it a lot with a steel flywheel. My old relic used to see 7500 off the line often enough,,,,,
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/28/15 4:04 am

I own two watermelons.

love them
Posted By: Triless

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/28/15 4:59 am

You know, NickL, I've always wondered why BSA didn't continue with the development of their '38 - '39 prototype OHC 500 cc twin. Most likely their tooling up for the war effort!
Why, oh why, didn't Roland Pike or Jack Amott follow this up post war! ? With the resources that BSA had, it must have been frustrating and soul destroying for the gifted engineering talent in the BSA"s employ!
I remember in an earlier thread pondering this, and your answer was " leadership ".
What a blatant waste of engineering talent this proved to be.
My theory is that " parent " companies thought that motorcycles in Britain still represented austerity, so decided to run down. And I bet certain directors of motorcycle companies were also directors of companies that would benefit from the asset stripping!
How else could the BSA motorcycle division fail? With all their in company resources!
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/28/15 6:49 am

Kevin, you are sharp
Quote:
three turnips, two watermelons, and that other thing


Tim Joyce said ,more or less, about the better Norton and BSA head design as compared to Triumph
Quote:
They aren't passing my Triumph on the track


Stephen,the British bike and auto industry failure was soon followed by the US auto industry and Harley in the 1970's. Keep building the same outdated products using a disinterested work force lead by arrogant incompetent leadership. Just polish turds and hope the customers see only shine...
But isn't the attraction to the old bikes because of all the faults.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/28/15 12:22 pm

Originally Posted By koncretekid
"is there an interest in the rest?"
Since that article pretty well sums up everything I've learned in my 10 or so years of building my own race motors, I'd be interested in the rest of the info.


i did-- it's over in triumph general forum.

MAP Cycle Enterprises tech tips from 2011 catalog

i don't know how to make a direct link
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/28/15 4:43 pm

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike

But isn't the attraction to the old bikes because of all the faults.



For me that is very much a part of the attraction.

What I see in these bikes are what I would call "war machines". Bikes that can be repaired with a rock, re-fueled with moonshine, and still get you home.

Out of all the bikes of that era ('50- 80's) these are the rare exception that will continue to run no matter what has been done to them.
The mad scientist in me wants to build what I think they can be but the romance is in the history.
Maybe, if I'm lucky enough my version will be running in another hundred years, and be owned by my great grandson/daughter.

That's what I see in these bikes.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/28/15 4:47 pm

I keep a selection of whitworth rocks in my toolbox.
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/28/15 5:43 pm

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
Kevin, you are sharp
Quote:
three turnips, two watermelons, and that other thing


Tim Joyce said ,more or less, about the better Norton and BSA head design as compared to Triumph
Quote:
They aren't passing my Triumph on the track


Stephen,the British bike and auto industry failure was soon followed by the US auto industry and Harley in the 1970's. Keep building the same outdated products using a disinterested work force lead by arrogant incompetent leadership. Just polish turds and hope the customers see only shine...
But isn't the attraction to the old bikes because of all the faults.


What tickled me was they continued to use a cam in the units which was designated for the pre unit, long stroke A10's, instead of designing something else. Even a none standard cam with poor top end is better as long as it's got more lift
Posted By: NickL

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/28/15 10:30 pm

I suspect that with that level of sponsorship, Tim Joyce could be riding any 750 twin and doing well in the American series. It's a bit like comparing some of the heavily sponsored Rob North Tridents in the uk classic scene to average privateers i'm afraid. As i have said before, if you could walk into Cosworth Engineering and place a 60's twin on the counter and say 'I need an engine that looks basically like this, and needs to win, here is an unlimited supply of money'.....

That's how the game is won.

There is a guy over here campaigning a pre-62 'Harly Sportster' in classic sidecars and cleaning up. It's about as much of a 62 Harley as my old beezer was, it just looks similar. The eligibility scrutineers must be blind or just stupid to allow some of the things that go on.
No sorry it's due to meeting sponsorships and money/politics.
When i suggested filing the edges off a Z1 Kawasaki engine and calling it an MV replica for my sidecar i was met with torrents of abuse. I couldn't see the difference personally.
Posted By: Triless

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/29/15 3:15 am

Well, NickL, I don't care if this sounds like a pocket urinating caper, but I'd love to be at a gathering of like minded enthusiasts where you were the guest speaker!
Yeah, a bloody shovel is a digging implement, and thats that!
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/29/15 5:23 am

Although we know it happens, it's a shame that people like that enter a classic scene with the pure intention of cleaning up and using any means necessary. Yes we all want to win, but stretching the rules to do it, it's just not cricket! I don't blame anyone for fitting something that makes it stronger mind.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/29/15 6:44 am

Was Tim Joyce the most well funded racer in the WERA/AHRMA 750 class? Maybe he was a better rider?
Alp has seriously raised the bar in 650 pushrod LSR. His bike shows a lot of money, his fuel bike has aftermarket cases and barrels but it also shows the engineering and riding to do the job.
Kevin's new build has more exotic parts than my bike that in a way dominates the class. If and when he goes faster, is that unfair? Same goes for Pushrod Tom...
Racing is competitive and progressive, not a static sport like a factory bowling league.If a guy wins because he has better equipment, then others need to change or be content with not winning.
However, what Nick L says is true and perhaps the other racers need to petition the rule makers to keep the racing class more "pure".
Posted By: Mark Parker

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/29/15 7:28 am

Tim's a great rider. And he built a bike that works really well. It is amazing how effective a light powerful bike can be. Australia in the 1980s was a great time with road racing, with Superbikes and Swan series, with Kevin Magee on Bob Brown's little Ducati twin, 125kg 112HP, Honda and Suzuki had no answer.

It would be interesting to know the speed and RPM Tim's reaching here and wonder what sort of speed the bike would do in LSR events:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9l_WUGktAc
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/29/15 10:59 am

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
Was Tim Joyce the most well funded racer in the WERA/AHRMA 750 class? Maybe he was a better rider?
Alp has seriously raised the bar in 650 pushrod LSR. His bike shows a lot of money, his fuel bike has aftermarket cases and barrels but it also shows the engineering and riding to do the job.
Kevin's new build has more exotic parts than my bike that in a way dominates the class. If and when he goes faster, is that unfair? Same goes for Pushrod Tom...
Racing is competitive and progressive, not a static sport like a factory bowling league.If a guy wins because he has better equipment, then others need to change or be content with not winning.
However, what Nick L says is true and perhaps the other racers need to petition the rule makers to keep the racing class more "pure".


It depends what's being done, I bloke I used to work with mechaniced for his brother who raced at the Isle of Man and other circuits, he was telling me that what the bike looked like was nothing like what it was inside.

There are some real good riders out there and I'm not to take anything away from them, but being honest in a sport is something which should be adhered to, especially if your classed like in LSR, if you can't be honest and race in the class your supposed to be in and not the class you have entered, and if you "win" then your not a winner, your a loser until you race in the class your supposed to be in.

The bike I'm building will get used for LSR (eventually) the frame will be modified and the engine won't be stock, the only person in competing against is my self and my own time. If I can build a bike which gives a good speed, does or doesn't have billet crank, long rods, high compression and a megacycle cam and other "speed equipment " add ons
It's still essentially a bike which the factory could have produced at the time. If I then go adding a 8 valve head and OHC then it's changing its class and being fair has gone out of the window. It should still race, but only in the right class.
Posted By: koncretekid

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/29/15 10:08 pm

What I like about Land Speed Racing at Bonneville is that I pull the head and they measure the size of my motor. As long as I've still got pushrods, everything else is legal. Innovation is encouraged and the sky is the limit. My only sponsors are my friends and the only people whom I need to satisfy are me, myself, and my friends. And my bike cost me way less than a new Harley!
Tom B.
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/30/15 5:05 am

Originally Posted By koncretekid
What I like about Land Speed Racing at Bonneville is that I pull the head and they measure the size of my motor. As long as I've still got pushrods, everything else is legal. Innovation is encouraged and the sky is the limit. My only sponsors are my friends and the only people whom I need to satisfy are me, myself, and my friends. And my bike cost me way less than a new Harley!
Tom B.


bigt Like

I presume you take the head off after you've raced? Be a pita doing it before hand.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/30/15 5:55 am

Originally Posted By Mark Parker

It would be interesting to know the speed and RPM Tim's reaching here and wonder what sort of speed the bike would do in LSR events:


that's really interesting to me as well.

i don't know enough road race history to compare the two types of competition.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/30/15 6:15 am

The Loring Maine LSR track, the fastest paved track in the USA,And the ECTA track in Ohio does not check engine displacement on record setting racers. You race on your word...That's good enough for the competitors who race there. There's no trophies or cash for winning in LSR..
Bonneville pulls heads for racers setting new records because FIA and or other certification standards for records. Back in the 50's Johnny Allen set a record in a Triumph powered streamliner and there was a big ruckus because the record was not FIA certified.But Triumph didn't care and still claimed " The world's fastest motorcycle"

How fast would Tim Joyce's bike run in LSR? 80 HP in a smaller faired bike would be in the 160's MPH or so depending on track length.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/30/15 12:04 pm

I'm not interested in just having the fastest machine I could have. I've said this before. if that was the goal, I'd buy a hayabusa. easy and lots of people do it that way.

allan has it right, to my way of thinking. pick the specific class that's interesting to you and then build the best combination you can within the constraints of that class. racing outside the rules for your class is like winning an olympic gold medal on steroids. the winner will be the pharmacist, not the athlete.

like I have to use a stock frame. the changes i can make to it are minimal, but everybody has the same constraints. so tony and i are out there with basically the same rolling chassis. maybe he's narrowed his rear loop, and maybe im running short struts to increase trail. but both of us essentially have a stock frame.

alp's alien bike is beautiful and wicked fast but his success with it doesnt relate to what im interested in. tony has the fastest modified production triumph in the united states. thats the sandbox want to play in.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/30/15 12:54 pm

Originally Posted By kevin
.


like I have to use a stock frame. the changes i can make to it are minimal, but everybody has the same constraints. so tony and i are out there with basically the same rolling chassis. maybe he's narrowed his rear loop, and maybe im running short struts to increase trail. but both of us essentially have a stock frame.



And the same for Pushrod Tom and Blown Income. My bike's frame is likely the most modified of the bunch with no attempt to keep the overall stock appearance, although 100% within the rules.I have been busted by track officials for too low handlebars... blush . To be fair, Alp's older modified production vintage 650 does a Triumph made frame and engine cast parts and an iron head.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/30/15 3:14 pm

you know, too, on the motor i'm putting together, the exotic stuff is all there strictly to try to make it tougher, not faster. i'm talking about stuff like the crank and the belt drive. i haven't test-fitted the belt yet, and it may be a dud-- john healy has a set of cases from the same year that he says no newbie belt will work on. everything else is pretty conventional. i'm not out on any cutting edges yet.

still measuring the cam to lifter clearance. there's a limit as to how much metal i can cut off the recess in the block, because the protruding corners of the square followers eventually tap the underside of the cylinder flange. so the answer seems to be to file as much off there as possible and take the rest off the working surface of the tappets by regrinding them shorter.

i have another set from my old streetbike i can send to megacycle, rather than having the ones for this bike done twice. i don't know how much can be taken off them. the last ones i measured were an even ten-thousands shorter than stock.

off to measure. i'm working nights for two weeks, so my awake schedule is messed up, but i spent yesterday installing lights in the shop so maybe i can see well enough not to mess things up.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/30/15 5:44 pm

How about looking into roller followers for the cam.

I haven't given this a very close look yet but I believe that the tappets can go the way of the OEM crank. Out dated... If you are considering modifying the tappet length, perhaps a total remake, and creating a hydraulic/roller tappet.

For certain I am integrating a hydraulic valve system, and it only makes sense to use a hydraulic roller cam follower vs. a hydraulic push rod assembly.

Maybe a roller follower inside the tappet block, and a push rod that sets like a chevy engine. Ie: lifter-follower/rod/rocker end... Machine work is all the same. Mickey Rourke could explain that aspect better than I.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/30/15 7:03 pm

Kevin, your engine's cam has .025 more lift than mine. I didn't have to trim the tappet blocks or tappets for .352 lift at the valve....There's gotta be an easy .025 to trim off. Where the tappet upper shoe edge catches the cylinder, just file off a bit of the upper tappet corner. Or relieve the cylinder flange with a Dremel too..
A competitive racing engine doesn't bolt together like a stocker...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/31/15 7:43 am

got to measure anyway. there's a little metal that can come off the guide blocks, but i have to actually see how much i'll need before i'll know whether i can cut that much off. i hesitate to excavate around the guide block bore just because it's a stressed area without a lot of metal:





but the overhang on the tappets is pretty substantial. look at the location of the oil holes-- nothing in here was held to close tolerances:



i only get an hour or so of awake time a day for the next ten days, as i'm either in a truck or too tired to think. i don't like to mess with motors when i'm tired, so everything goes slow for a while.

Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/31/15 7:49 am

Originally Posted By Zombie
How about looking into roller followers for the cam.

I haven't given this a very close look yet but I believe that the tappets can go the way of the OEM crank. Out dated... If you are considering modifying the tappet length, perhaps a total remake, and creating a hydraulic/roller tappet.


that could certainly be done, but i don't have the skills for it or the tooling. right now i already have the flat tappet cam and refaced followers. rather than re-engineer that part of the valve train i'd like to stay with the conventional lifters and just concentrate on making it better.

i haven't even miked the lifters yet to see whether they're even the same length. if not, it's possible i could solve the problem by just swapping intake and exhaust lifters-- i'm not using the oil feed to the cam.

twelve hours driving a dump truck last night though. got to go to bed.
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/31/15 8:24 am

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
Originally Posted By kevin
.


like I have to use a stock frame. the changes i can make to it are minimal, but everybody has the same constraints. so tony and i are out there with basically the same rolling chassis. maybe he's narrowed his rear loop, and maybe im running short struts to increase trail. but both of us essentially have a stock frame.



And the same for Pushrod Tom and Blown Income. My bike's frame is likely the most modified of the bunch with no attempt to keep the overall stock appearance, although 100% within the rules.I have been busted by track officials for too low handlebars... blush . To be fair, Alp's older modified production vintage 650 does a Triumph made frame and engine cast parts and an iron head.



My A10 frame is completely stock but I cannot run in the production class due to when I built this bike for the street I made it look like a Cafe' bike built with parts available in the late 60's. I have no issue with being in the modified class as this is what I have. I do feel however that some vehicles being at either tracks I've been too (Ohio and Bonneville) stretch the rules for modified when altered would be more of a proper choice.

My new Stroker A65 has a complete factory frame and swing arm, yes I have added fairing mounts and such, basically anything changed from the factory appearance moves you to a minimum of the modified class.

Hopefully us Beezers will give you Triumph guys a run for your money next season.
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/31/15 8:25 am

Kevin,

It looks like you have a lot of material you could remove from the tappet blocks below the tappets for your cam to work, worst case would be you will need shorter pushrods do to the tappets being higher in the blocks. I had to do this to my A10 tappet block for the high lift megacycle cam.

Take a little at a time from the tappet blocks and I'm sure you will get it to work out.
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/31/15 1:53 pm

Id be putting some plasticine between the Tappet and block to see how high the Tappet is lifted and go from there.

Regarding roller followers, you couldn't fit rollers to the same radius as the stock follower, if your Tappet is 1.25" then your doing to need a roller of 2.5" diameter. Or a change the cam to suit the roller radius.
Posted By: John Healy

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/31/15 2:55 pm

Quote:
How fast would Tim Joyce's bike run in LSR? 80 HP in a smaller faired bike would be in the 160's MPH or so depending on track length.


A lot of Tim's success is with his ability!! One doesn't need as much hp when one doesn't shut the engine down going into the corners! While in the old days before MAP came on the scene Tim ran a 500 (head done by Dana Johnson and transmission modified as a 5 speed). Tim was dominant in the AHRMA Sportsman 500 class. He then would take the same bike and run it in the 750 class where he won MORE than his fair share of trophies. It is difficult to equate success in Road Racing and Land Speed racing.

There was a comment in the thread about having to shorten the push rods. Any variation in push rod length is dependent upon base circle diameter, not cam lift.
Posted By: DMadigan

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/31/15 5:43 pm

Allen - 1.25" x 2 = 2.5"? Roller rockers will not buy much unless the roller is itself on rolling elements. If it is sliding on a pin the difference is the surface speed and the solid cam follower is likely to get more oil than a pin inside a roller.
The cam follower radius has to be matched to the cam so the full length of the face is used. Otherwise you loose dwell.
John, the pushrod length also depends upon the valve length too, yes? Pre T160 Triples have a long stem above the keeper so there is a lot of room for adjustment of the rocker angle there. On a triple, changing from the stock 5/16" stem valve to a 7mm is equivalent to shortening the 5/16" stem over 0.5". A good weight saving there.
Kevin - Looking at the bottom view of the tappets, any rotation is going to be controlled at the furthest point from the centre which is the corners in the centre of the tapper blocks so the whole section outboard of this is useless.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/31/15 6:23 pm

I see your points on the follower radius determining the duration (dwell) of the cam. It is indeed a large can of worms.

Where is my drawing board?

Edit:
That first picture of the tappet block in the cylinder base... It appears that the block is not sitting square to the base flange.
Is that designed in or is it a flaw?

I ask because if that block needs to be 90^ to the flange it will change the modifications you need to do. In fact it would change the valve timing, wouldn't it?

When I watched the posted videos last night (assembling the vintage engines at the factory) it is quite easy to spot all the subtle reasons for these to be so far apart from true. Even torquing parts with "T" bars, and no fixtures to hold the engines solid.

Now add 40 plus years of running out of true... Large can of worms indeed.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/31/15 6:45 pm

Originally Posted By Blown Income

My new Stroker A65 has a complete factory frame and swing arm, yes I have added fairing mounts and such, basically anything changed from the factory appearance moves you to a minimum of the modified class.

Hopefully us Beezers will give you Triumph guys a run for your money next season.


your machines are depressing because they make the others look like woodshed beaters even before you start them. You could at least spill some gasoline on the float bowls sometime.

I have to relieve the ears on both guide blocks before I can even turn either cam. Once I do that I can put in the lifters and see how much less clearance there is available than the measured cam lift. That and some running thousandths (three, maybe?) will be what needs to come out of the assembly.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/31/15 7:08 pm

Originally Posted By DMadigan

Kevin - Looking at the bottom view of the tappets, any rotation is going to be controlled at the furthest point from the centre which is the corners in the centre of the tapper blocks so the whole section outboard of this is useless.


we're still looking at that lifter foot surface area to spread spring tension against the cam lobe, though, aren't we? the less metal the higher the pressure?

i think hillbilly was saying to keep the same contact area and relieve the back of the lifter foot
Posted By: DMadigan

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/31/15 8:13 pm

I meant the rotational guiding of the tappets in the block. Since the tappets hang outside the block it will be the inside corner that will hit when it rotates. Another way you can keep the tappets from rotating without the tappet block getting in the way is by putting a link across the crank side of the tappets such as these:
http://www.crower.com/lifters/roller.html?cat=425
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/31/15 10:38 pm

Not to toss this into outer space but how about slotting the blocks, and cutting the tabs off completely.

I think flat stock bung welded into the tappet stems, and machined slots in the blocks or guides might kill several birds with one stone. It couldn't cost much, and it sure would make for a solid tappet system.

Just a thought.

Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/01/15 3:01 am

Originally Posted By Zombie

That first picture of the tappet block in the cylinder base... It appears that the block is not sitting square to the base flange.
Is that designed in or is it a flaw?


yes it was designed in and yes it is an annoying flaw.

it's how you keep the camshaft outboard of the crank and then have the rocker and valve assemblies tucked in closer to the cylinder centerlines. the triumph solution.

norton and bsa solved the problem differently, but then again it is nice to be able to time the triumph cams separately.
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/01/15 9:24 am

Originally Posted By kevin
Originally Posted By Blown Income

My new Stroker A65 has a complete factory frame and swing arm, yes I have added fairing mounts and such, basically anything changed from the factory appearance moves you to a minimum of the modified class.

Hopefully us Beezers will give you Triumph guys a run for your money next season.


your machines are depressing because they make the others look like woodshed beaters even before you start them. You could at least spill some gasoline on the float bowls sometime.

I have to relieve the ears on both guide blocks before I can even turn either cam. Once I do that I can put in the lifters and see how much less clearance there is available than the measured cam lift. That and some running thousandths (three, maybe?) will be what needs to come out of the assembly.


Kevin, I will take that as a compliment but I wouldn't call the others woodshed beaters. I do have an OCD problem when putting any of these old bikes together.The A10 has been together for 11yrs now and the powder coated frame does show the wear and tear and the lower portion of the fairing on the A65 has battle damage now as I DROPPED it at the sept. meet mad
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/01/15 1:50 pm

ouch

i hate doing that
Posted By: John Healy

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/01/15 4:36 pm

Dave the reference to the push rods and base circle, was the comment about having to change the push rod length after modifying the tappet guide block. Yes there are other factors at play...

It was Big D that raises the intake tract so it cuts through the bottom of the inlet rocker box. You can see it where they welded the inlet port onto the head. You do what you have to do to raise those ports.

Map and Big D are pretty fierce competitors - Until they fell out, Tim worked almost exclusively with MAP.

Kevin get a hold of an old tappet guide block and take a little more than 0.001" from the diameter. The idea is to get it so you can slide it into the cylinder by hand. Then you can slide the tappet guide block up and down in the cylinder using it as a visual guide to see just home much you need to alter the tappet guide block. I would remove as little from the ears as possible! It think part of your solution is going to be raising the tappet guide block a bit.

Get a hold of Art Stapleton at ACS in New Jersey. He has been using very high lift cams for many years and has some practical solutions. He has had some very good luck with ovate beehive springs. He was very good friends with the late Kenny Augustine. Tell him I told you to call (pm me and I will give you his number).

Making the groove in the tappet block deeper is a straight forward operation. Just remember the 45 cut at the bottom of the cut of the ears. Small detail, but it's important. I think I still have the cutter we used to make tappet guide blocks set aside here that has the 45 bevel used to make this cut.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/03/15 2:51 pm

john, while you were submitting that post, i was down at the shop filing down the ears on my guide blocks.

i can't make the annoyed emoticon appear here, but it should.

i took off just enough to allow the cams to rotate with about 0.005-0.008 clearance, so that i could see what might need to be removed from the inner recess or from the face of the tappets themselves. but i have some more guide blocks and tappets coming from eBay, so by the time this is over i'll have enough trot line weights for a whole summer of fishing.

if i raise the guide blocks by using shims, i will still run into the bottom of the cylinder flange before i can go all that much higher. so i'll have to come up with something. but at least dave madigan has adjustable T120 pushrod tubes, so that particular headache can easily be solved. i've done some measuring this morning.

thank you for the recommendation to art stapleton. i will call him and see what he can tell me.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/03/15 3:46 pm

so here is where i am. clearances are easy to measure just by sticking a feeler gauge in between the cam and the lifter, and seeing how much i can put in before it rubs. have checked only the right side, because i can take that tappet in and out without undoing the jugs. obviously both sides need to be checked. the setup is easy, using a new pushrod, here on the exhaust side:



with the tappet in, and seated on the base circle of the megacycle cam, there is less than 0.001-inch deviation --none measureable, in fact, literally-- as i rotate the cam back and forth a few degrees. nice work on the cam, clearly. i have no complaints on megacycle's work:



with the cam and the exhaust lifter installed, i could get only 0.353" out of the nominal 0.375" lift before the top of the lifter hit the recess in the tappet guide block. so i took the lifter out and put it in upside down to use for a measuring tool:



i was looking for just a difference between clearance at base circle and clearance at cam nose, and the reversed lifter makes this easy. instead of the pushrod, i took a piece of soft copper wire and hollowed out the top in the drill press and pointed the bottom on the grinder. crude, but it varies less than 0.001" through the full lift of the cam, even when rotated on an off-center drillway in the exhaust tappet:







^^^it's really straighter than that, but the wide angle lens on my telephone makes it look curved. didn't realize until just now how much longer it was than necessary.

anyway, using this set up, the exhaust side cam lift is a genuine 0.373 inches, a bit less than the advertized 0.375. since the exhaust tappet hits the recess in the guide block at 0.353-inches, i obviously need to come up with 0.022-inches here, not counting a few thousandths for running clearance.

on the intake side, the cam rotated clearly with 0.002 clearance. the actual lift of the intake side was 0.371", again less than the advertized 0.375", but close enough for my level of skill.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/03/15 4:12 pm

so at this point, i know i have 0.002-inches of clearance between tappet and guide block on the intake cam, at a full lift of 0.371 inches. a bit less than i'm comfortable with.

on the exhaust side, i have a measured cam lift of 0.373 inches, but only 0.353 inches of clearance above the tappet top before it hits. an unhappiness level of 0.020 inches.

so how much can i trim the exhaust guide block? john healy has pointed out the 45-degree fillet at the insides of the tappet guide block. putting a straight edge in there and carefully just missing the 45-degree fillet gives me a gap i can measure with a feeler gauge:



i don't have enough hands to show the feeler gauge in there, but no matter. when all was said and done, i could set the straight edge in the recess on the exhaust side, just missing the 45-degree fillet, and determine that i could fit in both a 0.024 and a 0.003 feeler gauge blade together, total of 0.027 inches.

0.028 would not go.

on the intake side, i need to find 0.001 inches to get a running clearance of 0.003 inches. just a light skim of the tappet guide block will do that, but again i need to retain the fillet.

on the exhaust side, i need to find 0.020 + 0.003 inches, so it seems i can get that by trimming the recess in the stock tappet guide block by 0.023 inches out of the available 0.027 inches. doable, so long as i can retain the 45-degree fillet in the recess.

in other words, i don't need to trim either intake or exhaust tappets to get a running clearance of 0.003 inches with this cam, basing my estimates on these tappets in these positions.

my refaced tappets actually vary in length by a bit, so i need to look at just how long they are.

but i am out of time today and have to crash.

Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/03/15 4:40 pm

Is there any real advantage in modifying the tappet block vs, modifying the tappet?

It seems to me the amount/style of machine work is roughly the same.
I ask because those blocks look rather fragile to begin with, at least compared to the rather stout looking tappets themselves.

My next question is, would there be an advantage in shortening the the push rod, and adding a cap to the valve to sort of split the difference in rocker geometry? In effect raising the valve stem 1/2 of the new lift distance, and shortening the push rod the same 1/2.
I realize it is more work but I wonder if there is a benefit in reliability, and rpm.

This is very interesting to me, and I would like to learn as much as I can thru this process. I also realize some of my thoughts may be hair brained schemes but they are just thoughts... The coyote can only catch the road runner if he keeps trying.

Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/03/15 5:01 pm

looking for no-bang clearance is the first priority.

correct rocker geometry comes next, and i'm not convinced it's as important as i used to think.

obviously, really wrong is still really wrong, but sort-of wrong seems less wrong than just acceptable.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/03/15 6:12 pm

Originally Posted By kevin


obviously, really wrong is still really wrong, but sort-of wrong seems less wrong than just acceptable.



The Catholic school nuns missed you, didn't they... LOL!

I get it.
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/04/15 4:13 am

Kevin, I'm far from anything of an expert, but I personally would have measured your lift with both case hands bolted together, you could very quickly alter how close you are to the Tappet block. A strip of plastigauge would tell you how much clearance you have.
If your going to use the adjustable push rod tunnels, then I would be raising the cylinder and skimming the top face.

For the cam, get your micrometer and measure the base circle, deduct this from the second measurement which includes the base circle and the full height of the cam.
The next measurement is at the valve, that's how much actual lift you have.

Re rocker geometry.

I think it's a lot more important than you might believe, I've worn out a good set of guides in a short space of time which I believe is down to poor rocker geometry. Trying to get the valves to lap in again was a nightmare. ( this head has gone back on whilst I wait for another head to come back from the machine shop - then this one will go in).
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/04/15 12:30 pm

you're right, i'm not going to be running half a motor, so i'll check with the thing assembled. but just trying to see where i was starting out at didn't need precision.

also i purposely didn't use a base gasket for this, to allow for all the available squish when assembling the top. i could solve the clearance problem instantly by using a thick enough gasket, but i would lose squish and compression. the composition gaskets i have run 0.015 to about 0.020, and i have a copper one that measures 0.021 that arrived in the mail yesterday to experiment with. it may be that your idea about using a gasket and skimming the top is the simplest way to do it.

on the rocker geometry, obviously you want to get it as right as you can, because there is exactly one setup that gives maximum valve lift, and it's the one where side loading the guides is minimal and balanced for and aft. i've read where people tune powerbands by playing with this, but it starts to go over my head really quickly. i tried three base gaskets once on a bonneville (stock pushrods) to see if it would let me run regular gasoline, and the rocker arm misalignment was dramatic.
Posted By: gavin eisler

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/04/15 8:51 pm

I thought triumph push rod tube seals came in a variety of thicknesses?
If your set up uses thicker ones heres what i would do.
Dont worry about the inlets 2 thou is two thou, it will increase with heat.
For the exhaust raise the lifter block by 25 thou or more with a spacer and fit correspondingly thinner pushrod tube seals . , if you use a base gasket you will have plenty room for the inlet
tappets. But, I would check with both cases together, you wont get full lift with the cam unsupported at the far end.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/04/15 8:54 pm

Originally Posted By kevin
i've read where people tune powerbands by playing with this, but it starts to go over my head really quickly. i tried three base gaskets once on a bonneville (stock pushrods) to see if it would let me run regular gasoline, and the rocker arm misalignment was dramatic.


This is where my thought on "splitting the difference" comes in.

BUT, this is based on the thought that the factory already had the ideal setup.

Combining this with Mr. Healy's suggestion of shimming the tappet block seems to be the least of all evils.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/05/15 9:06 am

i agree the solution is looking like shimming the tappet blocks up a bit. i've got some coming now from eBay so i can try out john healy's suggestion of trimming one to use as a tool for measuring clearances. i've already trimmed the ears on two that i have so that they clear the cam nose, but that idea was when i was still planning on making up the rest of the clearance by refacing the tappets.

i didn't measure the tappets before i filed the ears so i don't know how much i took off, which i need to know before i can come up with the appropriate shims.

gavin, messing with an assortment of seals has always been a curse of the triumph pushrod tubes, but it might turn out to be a blessing on this instead. shimming the tappet blocks requires the least changes elsewhere, as the neither the tappets nor the pushrods are affected (within reason). shimming the block and then skimming the top requires more changes to the stuff in between.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/05/15 9:29 am

Kevin, the top locating ring on the push rod tube is brazed. I have heated the tubes and moved the rings slightly to suit conditions several times. Of course it ruins the fine chrome finish... grin
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/05/15 12:21 pm

I didnt know that.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/05/15 1:03 pm

not about the chrome, I mean

I thought the ring was a rolled in crimp
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/09/15 8:09 pm

dropped a set of old cylinders and an old tappet block off at the machine shop to have the block turned down to a slip fit in the cylinder base flange. that will let me play with the assembled pieces to experiment with clearances without having to hammer things. i also ordered a pair of kibblewhite bronze tappet blocks, on the advice of artie stapleton (thank you for the suggestion, john). that took some doing, because the kibblewhite website has been down for days and the tappet blocks are out of stock all across north america. i had three suppliers cancel orders because they were back-ordered, and finally found them on steadfast's eBay store (they do not appear in their website listings, else i would have bought from them in the first place.)

in the meantime, i've been rethinking the chassis. i originally had an old TR6 metal tank from someplace, a fibrglas seat from hotwings glass, and a rear fender from glass from the past:



very pretty, and i was going to run it this way because i had hoped to have it going for the 2015 season. that's done, so i'm going to spend some time working on rider position.

first, if i lose the rear shocks and the fender, i can lower the back of the bike about three inches:



just doing this stretches out the steering head angle about two or three degrees, which is a plus:



it also means i can lower the seat about two inches as well, since the tire stays put. i imagine i'll just be using an aluminum sheet bolted to the rear loop. this is like five inches of improvement, and still gives me about an inch and a quarter of air above the rear tire.

losing the tank lets me lower my torso right down on the top frame tube, which makes the whole package up front some four or five inches lower. i'd been planning on a tube tank for the next season or so, but if i can get it together earlier, i'll like it a lot more. just a four or five inch tube to the right of the top tube gives a support for my chest and also lets me put my head low to the left, right under the top triple clamp.

have to mount the tach forward of the lower clamp to be able to see it.

i've also accumulated enough pieces of old stuff to be able to install a disc brake:



i don't want this on the bike during a speed run, but for tuning, having a brake that works is a plus. i've been running my old T120 with dual comicals on my local airstrip, and if i hit 95 mph on the 2900 feet i have to squeeze pretty hard to avoid the grass at the end. i strongly suspect the old drum/sprocket brake i have on the LSR machine would provide more pucker factor than i care for.

still looking for a master cylinder/lever combination. dave madigan sells beautiful handmade units, and one of those would solve the problem. else a good used one. i've been outsmarted twice on eBay trying to buy one, so i'm still looking. if any of you have a lead on a rebuildable unit, i'm interested.

ordering aluminum from online metals next.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/10/15 7:20 am

My bike is lowered evenly front and rear,about 2-1/2 inches, stock OIF frame neck angle .The rider says at near 130 mph it goes in a straight line although it dances a bit on the rough runway surface.
Once you hook up in high gear and are tucked in you have about 25 seconds to think about wheels coming off, detonation seizure locking up the rear wheel,and maybe turning into Haley's Comet because of a fuel leak... grin...
I plan to come and use your secret 2900 foot race track..You'll have to mark the 1/4 mile distance and have 1500 feet to stop...
Posted By: Mike Baker

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/10/15 7:48 am

Kevin
Found a 13mm master cylinder on amazon for I think 30 bucks. Chinese, nice unit, has a good feel with the Lockheed caliper.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/10/15 9:13 am

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike

Once you hook up in high gear and are tucked in you have about 25 seconds to think about wheels coming off, detonation seizure locking up the rear wheel,and maybe turning into Haley's Comet because of a fuel leak... grin...


25 seconds is about all i can manage with my belly on the top tube and my rapidly reddening face peering through the triple clamps.

i think i need to lose some more circumference before this will become a viable strategy.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/10/15 9:23 am

Originally Posted By mblab
Kevin
Found a 13mm master cylinder on amazon for I think 30 bucks. Chinese, nice unit, has a good feel with the Lockheed caliper.


damn, there's a lot of variety in there. how well is it holding up?
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/10/15 1:05 pm

Originally Posted By kevin
Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike

Once you hook up in high gear and are tucked in you have about 25 seconds to think about wheels coming off, detonation seizure locking up the rear wheel,and maybe turning into Haley's Comet because of a fuel leak... grin...


25 seconds is about all i can manage with my belly on the top tube and my rapidly reddening face peering through the triple clamps.

i think i need to lose some more circumference before this will become a viable strategy.


The preferred style is laying on the tank to the left with your line of sight left of center..
Rider size isn't as important as some think,it's all about riding style....Killer Whales are fast but yet rather substantial of girth...
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/10/15 7:01 pm

There you go. Killer whale leathers. The key is in getting that grin right.

My personal favorite set of racing leathers...



You know he could make another 3-5 tenths if he would just get out of the wind...

Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/10/15 7:07 pm

On second thought... Maybe not.

Posted By: Mike Baker

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/11/15 7:36 am

I put it on a bike I built with the intent to sell when it was complete. Turned out I really liked it and haven't yet unloaded it. Probably put 1500 miles on it this season and the front brake still works. Guess that means its holding up fine.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/12/15 12:51 pm

http://thevintagent.blogspot.com/2015/08/favored-by-gods-of-speed.html

Quote:
We had some interesting problems the special construction frame has a rake of about 39deg with about 4-5 trail; its meant to go straight at high speed. The problem showed up while under load, wide open; the runway at Mojave isnt flat, like Bonneville, it has a crown and the bike pulled to the right, so I had to slow down several times, just trying to stay on the course. This is a rigid frame, and on this course it bounced like crazy! El Mirage and Bonneville are much nicer without the paving. Bonneville is truly flat; I believe going straight is still better with a hardtail frame, even in the semi-saturated spots - it still wants to go straight. On the runway, without suspension, every time theres a bump it pushes you to the side, and the very center has a seam in the paving, which is pretty dangerous at 150mph. The course was tough, but even so, the bike was still pulling at 172mph; dont be surprised if I do 175mph, unless I destroy the bottom end!


Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/12/15 1:38 pm

The rake on my double Triumph is 34 degrees with a very slight offset yokes to give 5.75 inches of trail.It's the figures Sonny Routt used on his later drag race doubles. Some might say I should have more rake on the neck.....I'm no expert on chassis design but I believe having the forks raked out too much regardless of the trail makes the bike too unresponsive to rider control at speed.It's a hardtail rear. We shall see what happens when the bike is run...
Ohio is a newer runway for large jet freighters and Maine was a B-52 strip. Ohio is crowned I believe and I don't remember the Maine track having a noticeable crown.


Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/12/15 6:45 pm

well, if you increase the rake to 90 degrees, the trail becomes infinite, and the wheel no longer has the ability to steer at all and just flops from side to side. so there is an obvious tendency leasing to an upper limit to the matter.

are you going to have an opportunity to test the chassis out before you run this thing? it would be nice to discover any issues at less than 150mph, i think.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/12/15 7:32 pm

just a note here-- the kibblewhite tappet blocks showed up today. nickel-bronze, very pretty, but more to the point the clearance under the top of the recess for the tappets is clearly larger:



didn't have time to measure carefully, but it's substantial-- 0.040, i think:



the machining is beautiful-- look at the chamfers in the drain holes. you can't see it, but the bores for the tappet stems aapear to have been honed to size. even the position of the drain holes is consistent, something that the triumph factory never bothered with. not that it mattered, but it's just a bit of quality control.



tomorrow i'm hoping to have to have some time to do some actual checking.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/12/15 8:46 pm

I'm adding those to my build folder.

Beautiful pieces.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/12/15 10:34 pm

kibblewhite makes an ovate beehive spring kit which i was planning on using, but i went with the setup megacycle specified to use with their cam. look into their 6mm valves. pretty lightweight without the issues of titanium.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/13/15 12:31 am

I do intend to use the behives as per Mr. Healy's recommend, and a LOT of reading on them.

I plan to talk w/ Mr Degan about the center-fire conversion, and which valves to use soon. I'm not looking for maximum hp but a free reving, torque'y engine for reliability is more my goal.

Morgo 750, Offset crank (MAP or Nourish?), MAP con rods, JCC pistons 9.5 - 10:1), SuperBlend bearings, Dresden head, belt drive primary, HPI Ignition, ... 60 - 65 ish HP.

Mixing, and matching all these components is a tough chore but it's what I am good at, and enjoy doing. Like solid color jigsaw puzzles... They always come out perfectly.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/13/15 7:43 am

Originally Posted By kevin
well, if you increase the rake to 90 degrees, the trail becomes infinite, and the wheel no longer has the ability to steer at all and just flops from side to side. so there is an obvious tendency leasing to an upper limit to the matter.

are you going to have an opportunity to test the chassis out before you run this thing? it would be nice to discover any issues at less than 150mph, i think.


You mean besides the rural public roads? grin Both Ohio and Maine will restrict the bike to less than 150 for the first run or two..The rider needs to be "certified" for the speed if it's over 130 or something like that.

Nice tappet blocks you got.. I'm probably using the same cams so we'll see how they fit ..
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/13/15 9:14 am

just how exactly do they restrict you to a lower speed?

you dont have a speedometer.

are they going to jump out in front of you and wave you down?
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/13/15 10:27 am

Originally Posted By kevin
just how exactly do they restrict you to a lower speed?

you dont have a speedometer.

are they going to jump out in front of you and wave you down?


You are requested to back off the throttle...The officials can hear the exhaust sound and if you go full bore they can wave the black flag...
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/13/15 10:36 am

Originally Posted By Zombie
I do intend to use the behives as per Mr. Healy's recommend, and a LOT of reading on them.

I plan to talk w/ Mr Degan about the center-fire conversion, and which valves to use soon. I'm not looking for maximum hp but a free reving, torque'y engine for reliability is more my goal.

Morgo 750, Offset crank (MAP or Nourish?), MAP con rods, JCC pistons 9.5 - 10:1), SuperBlend bearings, Dresden head, belt drive primary, HPI Ignition, ... 60 - 65 ish HP.

Mixing, and matching all these components is a tough chore but it's what I am good at, and enjoy doing. Like solid color jigsaw puzzles... They always come out perfectly.


My opinion is go with the tight quench MAP forged pistons.They are made by Ross and the ones in my T120/750 street bike laughed off repeated detonation....I have no faith in cast Triumph pistons if the engine detonates...And running 9.5 or higher compression without dual plugs you are going to detonate on pump fuel...A more centered plug location might help but some say it makes no difference in power...
Alp's LSR engine appears to have the standard plug location and since he is the pinnacle of Triumph LSR, I would suspect is plug located mattered he would change it.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/13/15 10:40 am

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike

You are requested to back off the throttle...The officials can hear the exhaust sound and if you go full bore they can wave the black flag...


i suppose that would work, but it sure seems rudimentary. still, what isn't rudimentary in this activity?

radar guns are only a hundred bucks these days.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/13/15 1:07 pm

Originally Posted By kevin
Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike

You are requested to back off the throttle...The officials can hear the exhaust sound and if you go full bore they can wave the black flag...


i suppose that would work, but it sure seems rudimentary. still, what isn't rudimentary in this activity?

radar guns are only a hundred bucks these days.


Yes it's rudimentary and the only racing for a bunch of old guys grin
It's not violent like drag racing or requires the endurance and control of road racing or off road... It's about engine tuning and rider positioning...And patience...Kinda like internal combustion golf...
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/13/15 3:23 pm

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
Originally Posted By kevin
Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike

You are requested to back off the throttle...The officials can hear the exhaust sound and if you go full bore they can wave the black flag...


i suppose that would work, but it sure seems rudimentary. still, what isn't rudimentary in this activity?

radar guns are only a hundred bucks these days.


Yes it's rudimentary and the only racing for a bunch of old guys grin
It's not violent like drag racing or requires the endurance and control of road racing or off road... It's about engine tuning and rider positioning...And patience...Kinda like internal combustion golf...


I would also add, it demonstrates to the officals that you have control of your vehicle at speed. I only think the qualifing runs are needed to go 200+ mph. Total of 3 runs, 1 at 125mph, 1 at 150 mph and 1 at 175mph with a +- a few mph for each pass.

I'm excited to see how the May event @ Wilmington turns out with all these new British machines!
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/13/15 4:27 pm

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike

My opinion is go with the tight quench MAP forged pistons.They are made by Ross and the ones in my T120/750 street bike laughed off repeated detonation....



I'll look into them. I've used JCC in almost every engine I've built for more than 15 years so I do have faith in them.

I am always open to something new with a good reputation tho...
Thx!
K
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/13/15 5:54 pm

Originally Posted By Blown Income

I'm excited to see how the May event @ Wilmington turns out with all these new British machines!


april!


Quote:

The 2016 schedule is going to give you three meets (we dropped the July meet) with the first and last meets being three days long. Racing on Fri, Sat. and Sun. Mark your calendars!

April 29th-May 1st (Fri, Sat. & Sun.) (Hot Rod Magazine Top Speed Challenge)

June 18th & 19th (Sat. & Sun.)

Sept 30th-Oct 2nd (Fri., Sat. & Sun.) (Street Bike Shootout Cars welcome!)


loring doesn't have any dates yet
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/13/15 5:56 pm

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
...Kinda like internal combustion golf...


^^^that hurts, you know.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/13/15 8:24 pm

Originally Posted By kevin
Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
...Kinda like internal combustion golf...


^^^that hurts, you know.


I don't play golf.... Loring is spring, summer and fall...I like Loring better than Ohio. But I don't like to drive that far ,it's just painful....

The fresh engine in my 68 Chevy truck is up and running..I putting a new wood bed floor in it as we speak. I made the boards from oak and my shop and everything in it is covered with a film of saw dust..
I gotta get going on the double ASAP if there's any hope to run it on a track by September.
I'm at the age where time isn't something you waste...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/13/15 9:27 pm

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike

I'm at the age where time isn't something you waste...


you know what?

any age is the age where time isn't something you waste.

what you're at is the age where you recognize it.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/14/15 9:24 am

A career as a construction electrician and contractor has taught me to be goal orientated and approach a big job as a series of small jobs,one detail at a time while still considering the whole project...And also don't over focus on details that don't matter in the long run...
But sometimes a speeding freight train gets derailed...And time is wasted towing away the wreckage and getting back on track.....................
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/20/15 11:36 pm

ah well if it isn't one thing it's another

had a spare moment so i test fit the crank into the cases. tried to, anyway. timing side bearing wouldn't fit over the crank nose. the bearing ID was about 1.1250, and the crank nose was at 1.1251. so i took the bearing to my machinist and he honed out about 0.0004 on his rod machine. heated up the bearing on a light bulb and the crank slipped right in:



interesting. the old crank nose measured under 1 1/8 inches, at 1.1246 or so, and both the original bearing and the new bearing fit on (old was too loose-- the inner race would rotate freely around the old crank nose). the old bearing would fit on the new crank, too, but the new bearing wouldn't fit on the new crank.

tried the drive side and discovered it was the same way, though. i had thought it went on all the way when i slipped it on last week. but it was not to be:



so it's back to the machine shop to hone this one out too. as well as a little more on the first one, because now that i have it together, i can't get heat onto the concealed timing bearing to warm it up enough to slip the crank out (read, dumb . . . ). so i'll probably warm the whole thing up in the oven again and gently winkle the crank AND bearing out of the cases so i can separate them. and then do it right.

in the meantime i tried the crank without the drive side bearing and discovered it to be a bit too wide anyway for the cases to close up:



so the whole thing goes back to michigan so the machinist there can correct the dimensions. i'll send him the old 1970 crank that came out of these cases with it so he has something he can actually measure that we know worked at one time.

but i'm working out of town all week so nothing will get done until next weekend, probably.
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/21/15 3:52 am

You can fill that with silicone wink

Nah it's shit when that happens. The crank in mine now is about .017"-.018" wider than the one I had originally installed. I know that because I had .018" end float with the original crank, and scrappy doo with the one that's installed now. The problem associated was a cracked needle roller bearing cage, inn putting money on this being a problem again. When it's cold, it all fits fine. Either the crank is wrong or the new drive bearing is wider! If you still have the old bearing, try comparing the two widths when both bearings are mounted together.
Posted By: konon

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/21/15 10:14 am

Nice looking crankshaft, lot of added strength. Hope you can get the dimensions right.
Posted By: John Healy

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/21/15 10:29 am

Kevin the prefit diametrical clearance specifications of the bearing for this application have the bearing being a light press fit on the shaft. They should be a light press fit.

While you are the machine shop have him check then crankcase cylinder mouth for parallelism with the crank shaft.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/21/15 7:13 pm

Originally Posted By Allan Gill
You can fill that with silicone wink

Nah it's shit when that happens.


it's a function of putting a machine together from parts that were never previously associated. in the old days i could have walked across the shop floor and found another piece that fitted better, not now . . .
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/21/15 7:14 pm

Originally Posted By konon
Nice looking crankshaft, lot of added strength. Hope you can get the dimensions right.


yes, the parts are good. i'm not as hot at it.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/21/15 7:17 pm

Originally Posted By John Healy
Kevin the prefit diametrical clearance specifications of the bearing for this application have the bearing being a light press fit on the shaft. They should be a light press fit.


yes. i understand the reasons behind that, clearly, now that i want to disassemble the unit to send up to have the cheeks ground narrower. while a shrink fit is mechanically sounder, it is awkward to deal with in practice with a machine that was designed to be assembled with human hands.

Quote:

While you are the machine shop have him check then crankcase cylinder mouth for parallelism with the crank shaft.


i'll do that. it will take more than one box of doughnuts, i think.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/28/15 3:24 pm

all the machine people are off for the holidays, and i'm not working today, so i just test-fitted some things with another engine i have as a spare:

got a seat installed. lower than the cafe seat i originally had. i'm going to have my butt all the way back all the time, so i'm leaving the front open to allow access to the oil tank and electrics:



the carburetors stick up high enough to interfere with any kind of stock tank, so i'll be putting together a five liter tube on the right side of the backbone. that was the plan all along, but i was going to do it later on. guess not:



the newby belt drive seems to fit okay into this motor. i was concerned that it might prove to be too tight. these cases are from a 1970, like the one i intend to use, so it looks like i have something that will work, one way or another. the belt drive is beautifully made. with some spacers front and rear i'll be able to put a stock cover over it, just leaving a 3/4-inch gap all the way around for cooling, as the belt runs dry. i'll leave the trapdoor off too. rules say the primary has to have a shield, and the stock primary cover works as well as anything, with less fuss:



if i'd known that i'd be replacing about everything inside the original motor, i would have just bought a set of cases off eBay and started with that. as it is, by the time i'm done l'll have enough spare parts to build another one.

got some issues with the motor mounts, though. the frame is a 1965, really a 1964 carry-over, i think. i'm having difficulty lining up the 1970 engine holes with the holes in the frame. the frame doesn't appear bent, and i was unaware of spacing changes between those years, so i have to look closely at what's going on. the eBay rear motor mount plates don't quite line up all the holes between the frame and the motor, either, so i may end up cutting new ones out with a saw just to make this work. they don't need to be complicated, just flat plates with holes in the right places, as there's no foot controls or pegs that have to be mounted to them.



so we're moving along, slowly but surely. i have some 1-inch 6061 aluminum round stock, and i'll likely be ditching the shocks for struts in order to lower the rear and stretch out the front a bit. but the pavement where i tune is rough enough that i have to hook my feet under the pegs over 80 mph to keep from bouncing around too much, so i may keep the shocks (and the front brake) on for tuning, and just take them off when i get serious.

got my motorcycle driver's license, too, the other day. didn't stall it or fall down once. so i won't have to show up at the track with a learner's permit. smile
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/28/15 4:23 pm

Looking good

How many teeth are on the newby? I think I've said mine is 36:70

Will you be playing with inlet track lengths?
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/28/15 4:53 pm

Kevin, how wide is the belt? And generally it's starting to look like something good...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/28/15 5:20 pm

allan,i dunno how many teeth are on it. it looks like the same 1:2 as stock, which with a chain is 28:59. i have to go out to puzzle over the motor mounts some more so i'll count.

tony, the belt is 40mm. newby makes several widths, i think 20, 30, and 40, but i'd have to go check my notes. i think only his 20 lets you keep an alternator, and only the 20 and 30 can fit behind the cover. mine's been in a box for ages while i did other stuff and this was the first time i actually tried to see if it would fit what i had.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/28/15 5:29 pm

If anyone has any input on how the Newby drive compares to the MAP set up, I would love to hear opinions.

I love the idea of keeping the suspension/front brake active while tuning. Perhaps a method to lower the shocks to the final drive height would help. You may be able to gusset them directly to the rear loop.
My thinking is this... You face a fairy steep learning curve as it is. Surprises suck!
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/28/15 5:32 pm

Originally Posted By Allan Gill
Will you be playing with inlet track lengths?


as much as i can. the guy with my head claims that what he will do works best with a long inlet tract, some 13+ inches, and he recommends 37 inches of 1 5/8-inch exhaust. so i have some starting points. that's a long inlet, though, for these huge keihin carbs. i have to have somewhere to put my knees, too. maybe shorter inlets would work better overall, even if the return wave were weaker.

i visited the closest dyno shop to here a few weeks ago, and was not impressed. it's a harley place, and their dyno service caters mostly to tweaking an engine map after they put loud pipes onto a fuel-injected V-twin. the owner couldn't answer many questions for me about his machine ("yes, it has a roller . . . ") and more importantly, they won't let me into the room while it's run. so they want me to show up with all my jets and needles, pipe extensions, and inlet tract tubes and then let them do it all for me. i don't think that's going to work well.

lowbrow does their LSR dyno work up at a ducati/triumph shop about two hours north of me here in ohio, so they may be more sympathetic to what i'm trying to do. and there's always the seat of my pants.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/28/15 6:33 pm

oops

36:68 on that newby

with a 20 gearbox and 43 final, that puts it at 132 mph at 7000, rather than 131 with the 29:58 chain primary.

and with a 21:43, it's at 139!

wish it was that easy.
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/28/15 6:57 pm

If only. But you'll have good fun testing it
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/28/15 7:15 pm

newby's belt drive is really nicely done, though. it uses slide pins rather than a center hub:



the driven plates are all fibre, no metal in them at all:



and the steels fit so closely in the slide pins i put it together the wrong way at first because i didn't think that close a clearance was correct



pressure plate is a work of art:



everything weighs nothing except the steels and the basket itself



all very pretty. but pretty isn't what makes it win, so we'll see.
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/28/15 7:23 pm

Yer it's a work of art, I stripped mine recently and regressed the little balls. It had run a bit dry from the abuse I gave it riding to Belgium. Dragging it from lights in top gear because I was tired on a red hot day was not great for it. I would advise not to strip it.

Yes the 40mm basket is 68t and the standard 30mm is 70t ( although it looks like it could take a 40mm belt) the clutch pack looks like you have the 4 plate version ( with two green plates) Bob also has 3 red plates which are thinner and replaces the two green. Gives extra grip.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/28/15 7:54 pm

That is a beautiful clutch. I remember reading a few posts here about them before.

I can see in a race application where they have a hands down advantage in weight. I am really curious as to how long lived they are on the street.

I also see the advantage in the all fiber plates. No wearing on the basket notches, and the pinns are brilliant. I'm going to have to find more reading on them for sure.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/28/15 7:58 pm

there's only one red plate, and the others are green. i wondered what the difference was but had to get back to the house to bid on a pair of used carburetors on eBay (didn't bid after all-- the sixty-seconds-left hitters bid the price up to within ten bucks of new ones, so i stayed out).

Quote:
. . . I stripped mine recently and regressed the little balls. It had run a bit dry from the abuse I gave it . . .


^^^did you change the subject?
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/28/15 8:16 pm

Originally Posted By Zombie

I also see the advantage in the all fiber plates. No wearing on the basket notches, and the pinns are brilliant. I'm going to have to find more reading on them for sure.


i've never used one, so i'll report back. there's no cush drive anywhere, and lots of people are skeptical of belt drives in the first place. i think there's some good evidence that they're so tough they transfer forces instead of absorbing them destructively, and so other things destruct instead, like crankshafts.

but call him up-- he'll come to the telephone and tell you everything he knows about them.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/28/15 9:45 pm

I've never been a fan of anything with a "cush drive". I've passed up on bikes that use them several times.

IMHO, the belt drive primary will protect both the crank, and the gear set if the belt is the correct material, and size.

Over the years I have learned to stay away from Kevlar belts because as you state, they will not absorb shock but transfer it. I've had them eat thru plating, and metal faster than chain drives.

Polyester, fiberglass or nylon are what I prefer. Something else I have found is if you look hard enough you can find any custom belt is not custom. They are generally made by other companies in varying materials.

I appreciate the input Mr. Kevin. Build folder material...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/28/15 9:57 pm

Originally Posted By Zombie
I've never been a fan of anything with a "cush drive". I've passed up on bikes that use them several times.


you're going to love these british things, zombie. so many starting points for changes you'll go nuts:



Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 12:10 am

To date (six months of daily research) I am keeping my 1970 matching cases, and hard tail frame. Essentially the only non modified part will be the cases. Well, I haven't put pen to paper on the rubber engine mount system yet...

Actually there will be NO un-modified piece on the bike. I guess the '73 or later 5 speed gear set will be OEM.

Maybe I can find a NOS set of 1937 decals? That would make two OEM pieces. :-}

Something along these lines..

Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 12:41 am

i can't remember.

are you keeping the tiger head on your bike, or going to a bonneville configuration?
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 3:54 am

Me?

Bonneville head. I found an OEM large valve, 1969 angled intakes on FleaBay for 85 bucks. Unmolested.

I'm planning on the Dresden centerfire modification, porting, later model rocker shafts, Beehive springs, pressurized oil feed, and the 750 "long rod" conversion.

My goal is a 65HP street engine in a daily driver/show quality, custom.
Posted By: NickL

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 4:55 am

It's a shame that clutch won't run wet, all that wasted breathing volume eh?
can you change the ratio a bit or are you stuck with less than 2-1? I like to keep the load off the g'box by spinning it faster if poss.

For the road, i still reckon you need a cush drive of some description, but that's just dinosaur me again.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 7:06 am

Originally Posted By NickL
.

For the road, i still reckon you need a cush drive of some description, but that's just dinosaur me again.


I have seen late model Japanese bikes and Moto Guzzi have cush drives in the rear wheel hub.. Harley's have/had a spring thing on the engine drive sprocket like Triumph pre units...Cars/trucks have cushioning springs on the clutch disc or the "slippage" of the auto tranny torque converter...
Primary belt drives for Harleys do away with the cush and I don't think it's an issue with a belt primary...

While we're talking belts...Does a primary belt need to be "stronger" than a secondary drive belt?
Posted By: Triless

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 7:36 am

Better to be a dinosaur than a possesser of a box full of sparkly oil and little bits of metal, and maybe a body full of broken bones as well!
Important things, cush drives!
Posted By: koncretekid

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 9:27 am

Only one who has spun a mainshaft in a clutch hub can appreciate a good cush drive. I modified a Honda Hurricane rear wheel to fit within my 8" wide frame and line up with BSA B50 drive sprocket.


Hub area machined to narrow it up


The drive spider can be machined because it has a lot of meat around the sprocket mounting area, unlike may others I looked at.


The cush drive side can also be made shallower. The cush drive rubbers need to be made thinner as well. I glued the remains into the hub to keep them in place.



The finished wheel with sprocket from Vortex. It is a common 232-A and can be bought down to 34 teeth. I think I can even go smaller.



Lastly, the finished wheel showing how close the sprocket is to the edge of the 3-1/2" wide rim on which I run a 120/70 ZR17.

Aluminum rim which is more true than spoke, tubeless tire, modern rubber, and disc brake.

Tom
Posted By: GS DAVE

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 9:33 am

The red plate faces the nicosil plated outer thrust plate and the cushion dampening is taken care of by the belt.
Top notch clutch, got one fitted to my Goldie..
Posted By: konon

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 9:52 am

Making progress Kevin, Just don't add up the money.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 12:10 pm

Originally Posted By NickL

can you change the ratio a bit or are you stuck with less than 2-1? I like to keep the load off the g'box by spinning it faster if poss.


i believe the ratio is fudged to match the closest belt size that will fit between crank and gearbox centers with something near correct tension.

that center-to-center distance seems to wander a bit in triumphs, even within years. allan says the 30mm belt uses a 70-tooth pulley, rather than a 68. i don't know why that would be, unless newby was experimenting with different pulleys as he enlarged his selection of belt widths.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 12:36 pm

Originally Posted By koncretekid



Hub area machined to narrow it up


tom, you narrowed the distance between wheel bearings here by machining the hub. did you have to do that because you couldn't take enough off the outside of the drive spider to line the sprocket up?

that wheel makes my head hurt. three-fold symmetry on the rim, four-fold symmetry inside the cush drive, and five-fold symmetry on the sprocket. what are the four round things that look like the ends of rods poking up inside the hollow wings of the cush drive?
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 12:38 pm

Originally Posted By GS DAVE
The red plate faces the nicosil plated outer thrust plate and the cushion dampening is taken care of by the belt.
Top notch clutch, got one fitted to my Goldie..


more there than meets the eye, first off.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 12:53 pm

Originally Posted By konon
Making progress Kevin, Just don't add up the money.


i don't dare
Posted By: shel

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 12:57 pm

More importantly, don't let the wife add it up
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 3:21 pm

I think she's trying to peek in the shop again...




Oh yeah... I agree that a properly sized belt drive does make up for the need for a "cush drive"in the primary. Apparently Mr. Newby/MAP engineering came to the same conclusion.

I also believe in chain tension'rs in place of rear wheel dampeners. Especially so on hard tail frames. (street bikes)
True, that Joe Average will blow up a lot of drive lines if bikes came from the factory the way I like them.
You have to learn to ride a solid drive set up just like you have to learn to ride a foot clutch, a jockey shift, or even a pair of ape hanger bars.
Just my personal preference.


Ps... Mr. KoncreteKid,
Nice work on the rim assembly. I've owned a few Hawker Hurricanes, and I loved them.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 3:40 pm

I'm doing something on my double engine Triumph like Koncrete Kid .It's a 90's 750-1000 Suzuki 17 x 3.5 sport bike rear wheel with a 150/70 ZR tubeless. I faced the sprocket cush drive about 1/4 inch to move it a bit to the right. And the Triumph conical hub sprocket grafted to the shaved Suzuki sprocket to get the required ratio and move the chain another 3/8 to the right to line up with the HD 5 speed. All while keeping the tire center line directly behind the front centered between the forks.
Modifications like this are legal in modified production but this bike is in altered class.



Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 4:00 pm

5 speed?

So this is an LSR bike, and NOT a drag project.

Are you considering fairings?
Posted By: koncretekid

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 5:57 pm

Kevin,
I recessed the bearing about .050" because I had already removed as much as I thought safe off the drive spider to maintain full threaded length for the drive studs. The Honda hub had more meat in the spider than the Suzuki ones I looked at which could not have been narrowed up to this extent. I have the wheel apart now to make wheel discs, so I can make some measurements if you're interested. I think the chain has about 1/4" clearance to the tire to keep the centerline of the wheel in the center of the frame (almost) with the 120 width tire.

Those round things that look like rods are just part of the casting. The cush drive rubbers used to have ties between them to keep them in place. By narrowing up the spider and the rubber cush pieces, you lose these ties, but "Household Goop" glues them in place nicely.

Tom
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 6:12 pm

Originally Posted By Zombie
Especially so on hard tail frames.


i've got one coming along now. this keeps an inch and one-half free above the wheel. i can come down another 3/4-inch by cutting the strut shorter and drilling another hole higher up.

Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 6:19 pm

Originally Posted By Allan Gill
. . . the clutch pack looks like you have the 4 plate version ( with two green plates) Bob also has 3 red plates which are thinner and . . . replaces the two green. Gives extra grip.


four green, four steels, and one red.

red plate up against the pressure plate.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 6:20 pm

Originally Posted By Zombie
5 speed?

So this is an LSR bike, and NOT a drag project.

Are you considering fairings?


It's naked frame bike all the way...The Harley transmission and clutch is for reliability.This bike will have enough development problems so no need to chase after the tranny and clutch..And the 5 speed 3.24 fist gear goes nice with the 3.2 overall in high gear.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 6:33 pm

Originally Posted By koncretekid
Kevin,
I have the wheel apart now to make wheel discs, so I can make some measurements if you're interested.


i'm super interested, because i'm likely to do something similar in markii or markiii versions of this machine, but i don't know enough yet for measurements to be useful. just looking at the possibilities based on what you've done is a very important education.

i remember the pictures you posted of your primary blow-up, by the way. not something i want to emulate.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 6:37 pm

Originally Posted By kevin
Originally Posted By Zombie
Especially so on hard tail frames.


i've got one coming along now. this keeps an inch and one-half free above the wheel. i can come down another 3/4-inch by cutting the strut shorter and drilling another hole higher up.






Running this set up, I think I would look into polyurethane swing arm bushings. I've never ridden an LSR specific bike but I am a stickler for feeling out deflection in the frames or drive line. The tiny deflection you get in rubber bushings may be a few tenths of a second in acceleration, or a few MPH points at WOT. Not to mention a challenge in geometry/stability.

That's why Cush drives are a no go for me. Deflection.


Mr. Tony,
Is there any reason or class rule that prevents you running some sort of fairing?
Naked frames are sexy as all get out but as I know you know... Fairings are MPH, and stability.
Just curious.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 6:38 pm

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
And the 5 speed 3.24 fist gear goes nice with the 3.2 overall in high gear.


what exactly are you planning?

if you keep that 27-inch tire, that's 177mph at 7000.

if my math is right.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 6:41 pm

Originally Posted By Zombie
The tiny deflection you get in rubber bushings may be a few tenths of a second in acceleration, or a few MPH points at WOT.


no rubber in this puppy. solid bronze, and in good shape.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 6:50 pm

Originally Posted By kevin
Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
And the 5 speed 3.24 fist gear goes nice with the 3.2 overall in high gear.


what exactly are you planning?

if you keep that 27-inch tire, that's 177mph at 7000.

if my math is right.


25.5 inch rear tire x 3.2 is 170 MPH at 7200 rpm ...Target speed for the engines on gas...
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 6:55 pm

Originally Posted By kevin
Originally Posted By Zombie
The tiny deflection you get in rubber bushings may be a few tenths of a second in acceleration, or a few MPH points at WOT.


no rubber in this puppy. solid bronze, and in good shape.




Here's my version of a thumbs up... ~!~
(sorry if it looks like something else) :-}
Posted By: Rickman

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 9:58 pm

Kevin,
I don't know where exactly you are, but I know of a dyno just north of 270 in Columbus... Well south of Delaware...

It is NOT in a bike shop, so I don't know if it is bike friendly...
Or if one is just like another, baring programming...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 10:00 pm

worthington?
Posted By: Rickman

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 10:48 pm

No, north of 270, just about at the county line?
It's a truck performance shop?
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/29/15 11:19 pm

i've just looked thru the net, and there are a couple of them near there. i'm east of columbus, about 125 miles by wheeling, but i'll look-- it's a straight shot down the I-state to get there.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/10/15 7:46 pm

well, we're stalled for just a bit. a summary, more to put my own head in order than anything else:

first, the crankshaft main bearing noses, left and right, on the crank, are a bit too big for the standard bearings to push on.

second, the crank is too wide, cheek to cheek, to quite close up the cases.

third, the new camshaft bushes aren't quite lined up and will need to be reamed.

fourth, the cams still don't clear the old tappet blocks and that will require thought.

so to try to solve all of this, the new crank and the old crank are boxed up waiting for payday so i can send them to the crank guy in michigan. he can use the old one to size the new one, solving problems one and two.

when that comes back, i can take the assembly to my friendly machinist (accompanied by a box of glazed doughnuts, which is part of the price) and i'll get him to check the crankcase cylinder mounting surface for square with the crank.

once that is done, i'll solve problem three myself, as i have a reamer kit (with pilot and ball) to align the camshaft bushes. also have a nice set of telescoping snap gauges now, so i can actually measure the ID of the bushes, something i couldn't do before. apparently the sintered bronze bushings are hard to find these days (according to mike raber) but the new ones in the cases were honed a bit, and i have another spare set of new ones to put in if the first new ones don't measure out with the correct clearances. i know what sintered metal looks like new, but not after it's been honed, so i'm not sure what i've got (although they're definitely new).

and once three is solved, i'll be able to assemble the whole thing together and solve problem four, the cam-to-tappet block problem, which seems so long ago now. i have an old tappet block turned to a slip fit in the base flange, so i'll be able to see just what i need to do with the blocks without having to beat on them with a hammer. dunno what the answer will be, as it may involve lifting the blocks with a spacer and shortening the pushrod tubes, or lifting the jugs entirely and having to mess with the top end. or cutting the blocks. i'll have to see.

the problem is that this all takes money, and my kids all need money too. and tremendous amounts of time, which is even in shorter supply. and getting worse daily.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/10/15 7:59 pm

in the meantime, speaking of kids, i got my number two son to check out the rider position on the bike:



looks just about right. he's not as long as i am, but i can assume the same position with the exception of getting my head to turn back 90 degrees on my neck so i can see straight ahead. as of today, i have commenced a series of horrifying crackling and popping stretching neck exercises to get my head up to where i can see where i'm going. to be accomplished by the end of april, or else.

he's only thirteen right now, but i'm negotiating a position as a backup rider with him in three or four more years. he weighs a whole lot less than me too, and that's a useful asset.

speaking of which, the ECTA rules specify a certain box within which the instruments must be located on production modified machines. that location is outlined by the cardboard sheet taped to the fork tube:



yo can see in these two pictures that there ain't no way to use the tach if one is folded into the necessary LSR limbo crouch. so i'm going to go ahead and mount the instruments where the rider can see them in a full crouch. they need to be there during tuning, at least. if they don't pass inspection this spring, i'll make a decision as to whether to run without instruments or possibly negotiate some other solution. won't have anything except the tach and an oil pressure gauge (maybe with an idiot light, possibly an ignition warning light . . . )


Posted By: DKA

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/10/15 8:00 pm

Kevin, I once ran stuts on my '79 and 50 lbs of pressure in the tires at Wilmington. The grooves in the concrete vibrated my feet so much at 130 that I went back to shocks. Maybe lowering the tire pressure would have helped, but I just went back to what I knew. I don't recall hearing the hard tail riders complaining about it tho.
DA
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/10/15 8:24 pm

Do I detect a bit of frustration ? I don't have distractions like a job or kids...But I get frustrated when the task at hand is beyond my tools and skills and have to rely on others...And others who have other distractions and so on......The first race is 4 months away..The last race of the season is about 8 months...You have time..
The youth on your bike has the correct style...

Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/10/15 8:28 pm

Originally Posted By DKA
Kevin, I once ran stuts on my '79 and 50 lbs of pressure in the tires at Wilmington.


well, you bring up an important point, which is that shock absorbers were invented for a reason. if we were running on glass, we wouldn't need them, but that isn't in the picture.

the runway where i tune (god bless that gear-head of an owner) is rough enough that i have to hook my feet under the pegs above 85 mph to keep from bouncing off the seat. can't go much faster because the trees at the end start getting really big really quick. (which makes me wonder about people in airplanes there).

your comments b=about wilmington are spot on-topic, because that's the first place this machine will get opened up. it was built with shocks in the first place, and the only reason to take them off was to lower the seat an inch or two and stretch out the front end a few degrees without having to cut it.

so, first, i may end up following you and putting the shocks back on just to be able to stay in a straight line. and second, i may have to cut the front end to stabilize it at speed. but i don't know until it rolls.

i don't know what to think of hard tail people, lol. i don't think they'd admit their butt hurt if they could do it anonymously.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/10/15 8:49 pm

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
I don't have distractions like a job or kids...


ooooh rub it in, why doncha

Quote:
But I get frustrated when the task at hand is beyond my tools and skills and have to rely on others...And others who have other distractions and so on......The first race is 4 months away..The last race of the season is about 8 months...You have time..


lord. four months? that used to seem like so much time, the end of the world . . . you bring up something very thought-provoking, though. all my life i have always worked on increasing my own competence : the acquisition of the skill set and tooling necessary to accomplish things in a field that i wanted to master. if i needed to do something, i learned how to do it myself, from first principles . . . but i no longer have the time to think that way, or to do it all in a program like this. so i have to shift the skill acquisition from learning how to do all things myself to learning how to select and negotiate with the right other people to do some things for me. this is really new to me, and really hard for me to get used to. i hate not knowing everything there is to know about something this interesting, and i hate not being able to do everything that is necessary to do.

does this mean i'm growing up, finally?

Quote:

The youth on your bike has the correct style...


he's great-- Mister Mechanical. when he was six he taught himself how to use a screwdriver by removing all the screws from all the doorknobs in the house and then losing them-- now that he's thirteen, he went around the house the other day and started fixing all the doorknobs he messed up when he was younger. i have great expectations for him, ONCE HE LEARNS HOW NOT TO LOSE THE ONLY SPARE KEY TO THE WAREHOUSE IN HIS STINKING BACKPACK FOR SIX MONTHS.

sorry. it's a sore point.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/10/15 9:26 pm

https://youtu.be/6TOQe-I86Fk
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/11/15 9:11 am

Kevin,at 13 I was planning an armor car robbery with my best friend. So losing a key isn't so bad...

To be honest if I was starting over on this lSR it would be an Evo Sportster to fit the 1000 cc class..My rider and he who pays, likes oddball stuff...At my advise he bought a 1000 Guzzi to modify for LSR...But making serious power was more smoke and mirrors than a Triumph..Then he found a 1930's Henderson inline four engine...That would have been a brave new world...looked for a JAP V twin but then I recovered from that nightmare...
I'm over my head on the fantasy twin Triumph bike build trying to come up with the "best" drive line. Everyone is saying I should do this and that...of course it ain't their money and not their build...
I stopped listening and low and behold some progress is being made...
Like what Admiral Farragut said about torpedoes ...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/11/15 10:46 pm

well, you have to build something that works before you can make it better.

"done" is better than "perfect."

i never thought of armed robbery, though. that takes some imagination.
Posted By: Zombie

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/12/15 10:26 am

There are TONS of adjustable gas shock options, and sprung seats.
You could also modify the rear loop to allow for more upward travel, and still keep the reduced height.

Armored cars eh? LOL!!! Indian Larry would laugh...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/17/15 10:25 pm

in and out of town working nights. grabbed a spare moment and built a mount for the speedhut GPS tach:



had some 6061 aluminum for something else, so that's what i used:





put it in the only place where the instrument can be seen by the rider during a run:





this is the last time i fabricate anything non-critical out of 6061. i used up three sabre saw blades cutting this puppy out. apparently it work hardens in front of the blade at any speed i can make my old saw cut at.

Posted By: koncretekid

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/18/15 7:26 am

How does a GPS tach work? Is the smaller gauge electric oil pressure gauge? Looks well position for the head-over-to-the-left riding position.
Tom
P.S. You can soften 6061 by heating to something around 400C but you'll have to check that number. I've heard smear the aluminum with soap or soot from your acetylene torch then heat until it disappears. It will air harden back to its original hardness.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/18/15 10:15 am

Originally Posted By koncretekid
How does a GPS tach work? Is the smaller gauge electric oil pressure gauge? Looks well position for the head-over-to-the-left riding position.
Tom
P.S. You can soften 6061 by heating to something around 400C but you'll have to check that number. I've heard smear the aluminum with soap or soot from your acetylene torch then heat until it disappears. It will air harden back to its original hardness.


You said "air harden" I believe when the soot is gone the temperature is correct for annealing some types of aluminum work hardened by tooling.
Posted By: GrandPaul

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/18/15 10:50 am

Yeah, I make Triton mounting plates out of 6061 and they sure are a load of work, even with a new bandsaw blade!
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/18/15 10:52 am

tom, I misspoke

tbe unit is actually an electronic tach with a gps speedo, which is the little gauge. the digital display uses the gps antenna to let you run quarter miles, top speed, 0 to 60, and some other stuff. I had the tach on my street bike for testing, and while it works its smooth, but it seems sensitive to vibration and sometimes goes dead around 6500. but that may have been because I just had it taped to the forks. I've left enough metal in the mount so I can enlarge it for cushioning if I need to. or just switch to mechanical

i really don't have a need for 6061 in most of this first iteration I cut the seat out of 5052 because I needed to bend it to fit, and a sabre saw went through that easy.whatever else I need I think the softer metal will work okay.

as the machine gets more refined ill switch to higher quality work

ha

maybe
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/18/15 12:36 pm

The Equus electric tach on my racer is wrapped in foam and hose clamped to a metal bracket welded to the front down tube.Seemed pretty sturdy and vibration free during back road street testing.
My rider says the tach needle is a blur from vibration at top speed but still readable...
After the last pass at Maine I notice the tack needle had fallen off......
The Speedhut tachometer on my T120/750 street bike had a nice steady responsive action mounted to the top yoke with rubber grommets for vibration resistance...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/18/15 9:25 pm

i really like the speedhut units. rock-steady needle display, unlike the running-average readouts i'm used to with the old smiths instruments.

plus just having a wire instead of a cable means a lot more flexibility in mounting.
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/19/15 9:17 am

I will try and get a photo of the Scitsu tach I have on my Stroker A65. There is an aluminum cage that mounts to the frame but has rubber band like strips that mount the tach to the cage to absorb vibrations. On the A10, I am using a Auto meter pro cycle tach thats rock solid at all rpms.

Kevin, Thats a nice looking unit. Do you have the piano hinge locked or something to stop it from folding up from the wind?
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/20/15 12:54 am

Originally Posted By Blown Income

Kevin, Thats a nice looking unit. Do you have the piano hinge locked or something to stop it from folding up from the wind?


you are observant.

no, the unit is floppy right now. i need to either brace it with an angle at the base, or run a rod from the top to the triple tree.

should have left extra metal at the top for a rod, but i forgot . . .
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/21/15 9:02 am

Originally Posted By kevin
Originally Posted By Blown Income

Kevin, Thats a nice looking unit. Do you have the piano hinge locked or something to stop it from folding up from the wind?


you are observant.

no, the unit is floppy right now. i need to either brace it with an angle at the base, or run a rod from the top to the triple tree.

should have left extra metal at the top for a rod, but i forgot . . .


Kevin, I would either have the joint TIG welded or just replace the piano hinge with an angle.

Bikes looking good! Are you still planning on the ECTA 3 day event in April?, remember registration opens 1/1/16.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/21/15 10:19 am

Originally Posted By Blown Income


Kevin, I would either have the joint TIG welded or just replace the piano hinge with an angle.


i'd have already done that if i could weld aluminum-- can't use a 90 because then the instrument tips back parallel to the forks. but this is still 50 percent mockup. i'm in do-whatever-it-takes-to-move-forward mode, at this point. if it lasts through dyno testing i'll be happy enough.

Quote:


Bikes looking good! Are you still planning on the ECTA 3 day event in April?, remember registration opens 1/1/16.


yes. i'm anticipating a lot of frustrated bonneville regulars here in ohio, again. last time i thoughtlessly delayed registration, and when i finally called tonya up i was 30th in line. not this time.

i just mailed the crankshaft back to the machinist yesterday. been stymied for postage money for two crated cranks until then. he'll have the one he made (too big in several places) and the one i took out (beat up, but sized correctly) so when he gets it back to me i'll move forward another step.
Posted By: ken sak

Re: mail-order LSR - 01/02/16 8:01 am


[/quote]
I hope I didn't come across as "bashing" BAK, because he is a very knowledgeable guy and is very educated in the land speed game. I personally think his personality comes from just being an old man with an old naggy wife. grin All kidding aside, I have learned a HUGE wealth of knowledge from that forum, and is why I recommended it. It is mostly helpful knowledgeable people, but you you are going to hear things that you don't want to hear. Whether that be snide comments, or proven facts that are going to shatter your ideas of how you going to "make something work". Don't worry, I think I only get grief because I'm building an Enfield. But, I'm not like most people so why not build an underdog? smile [/quote]

Be quick to listen and slow to speak bible says, in my 60-70
car engine builds if I had an idea and shared it with another builder and he disagreed i'd listen and not necessarily disregard what he said but add it to my idea and come up with something better than I thought that works
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/14/16 8:18 pm

nasty and cold and snowy outside, and the shop is so cold my fingertips ache after just a little while. so i decided to stay inside and make some changes to the carbs for this bike, even before i've ever run them:



i dug out some files and brought the keihin carbs up to the house. the keihins have a hidden pilot air screw, stuck up inside the carb body. it's accessible only from directly underneath, using a long skinny screwdriver, and you can't really see what you're doing. that's the hole for the screwdriver in the bottom of the float bowl, next to the drain plug:



the little brass screw is the stock pilot air screw that you reach for through the hole, and the weird purple thing next to it is an aftermarket screw that replaces it, but is accessible from outside the carb, using just your fingers. it even has numbers on it so you can diddle it around and keep track of what you've done:



the problem is to make it fit, you have to enlarge the through-hole in the float bowl, because it's designed to let a screwdriver in, but not let the air screw fall out. to get the big gnarly screw into place from the outside you have to carefully open up the hole just enough to admit the threaded portion of the replacement screw:



i also chamfered the entry hole in the carb body just a little as well, in order to give the new air screw a little wiggle room. buttoned it back together, and the new assembly looks like this:



that hose-looking thing is actually a remote idle speed adjustment, and you can see how the numbered sides on the air screw let you look in from the side and adjust the mixture, also without tools.



haven't done so much as test these things yet. as soon as the weather breaks, i'll install them on my old T120 street bike to see how they work. i still have an air/fuel gauge on that bike, because it's got new carbs that i hadn't finished jetting before the snows set in. that will let me experiment a bit to see just what sort of starting jets might be necessary for the 650 LSR bike these will go onto.

they came with universal jetting set up for a yamaha DT350, which is sort-of close to half-a-triumph, but i have a set of richer and lower pilots and mains to start out with. the keihin needle jet is one-size-fits-all, so rather than mess with that you just select among different needle diameters instead, and then decide on the taper. i'm not sure that makes it any simpler than otherwise, but it's certainly one step less than with mikunis, where you do both needle jet AND needle diameter, and STILL have taper left to do.

no way to see what needles i might need until i run it, so i didn't buy any to try. just waiting on spring now.

Posted By: koncretekid

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/14/16 9:46 pm

Can you still get the drain nut off, which I assume you need to do to change the main jet? And in LSR, changing main jets is probably more important than adjusting the pilot air screw, but it sure looks trick.
Tom
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/14/16 10:01 pm

nah, the knob goes through the float bowl into the fuel passage in the body, and the knob interferes with the access plug. so to use the drain to change out the main jet, you have to unscrew the idle mixture knob and take it out. but with the numbered markings, you can return to the identical setting in as long as it takes to screw it back in. and using it on my street bike for initial setup makes the idle adjustment convenient.

these things have something of a reputation for hard starting when cold-- no choke on them-- and also when hot, so there are extra features on some models for that. i'm not sure of anything except that i won't have a lot of time to be tuning before the end of april, so maybe this can save a bit of time. if not, the old screws can go right back in.

some norton people run these things, but i don't have any information on how successful they are.
Posted By: koncretekid

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/15/16 12:10 pm

Good luck and I'll be interested in your results as I have considered one of those carbs for another project.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/15/16 12:53 pm

Originally Posted By kevin


these things have something of a reputation for hard starting when cold-- no choke on them-- and also when hot, so there are extra features on some models for that. i'm not sure of anything except that i won't have a lot of time to be tuning before the end of april, so maybe this can save a bit of time. if not, the old screws can go right back in.

some norton people run these things, but i don't have any information on how successful they are.


A few twists of the throttle so the accelerator pumps squirts in some fuel...Should start instantly after one prime kick...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/15/16 1:10 pm

that accelerator pump is a new feature for me, for sure. makes the carb big on the bottom, though.

these are bulkier instruments top and sides, which is their main drawback. with four inches from valve seat to spigot end on the head, and a four-inch carb length spigot to bellmouth, they'll need five inches of intake tube to get to the nominal 13-or-so inches i'm starting out with on the intake tract. that puts the right hand carb right in the middle of the oil tank.

looking at pre-bent radiator hose right now to maybe help with that. i'm not sure what that will do to my right knee.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/15/16 1:14 pm

Originally Posted By koncretekid
Good luck and I'll be interested in your results as I have considered one of those carbs for another project.


we'll see. for all that these have been around some 30-odd years, there's not a lot about tuning them for non-stock applications on the net.

have you ever thought about lectrons? a set of four 42mm carbs just sold on eBay for $300, which was a steal.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/15/16 1:46 pm

Originally Posted By kevin


looking at pre-bent radiator hose right now to maybe help with that. i'm not sure what that will do to my right knee.


When I had the carbs sticking out on long "formula" stubs it compromised the riding position...I pushed the carbs in within an inch or so of the stock position and the engine made more power and went faster on the track...If a guy is a sharp tuner and wants to spend time tuning on the dyno and or track, the pipe and intake formulas can be an advantage. Or a disadvantage, because my experiences was ,it makes the engine more fussy to tune for conditions...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/15/16 3:14 pm

testing is reality. according to the . . . theory . . . this sort of motor should benefit from long intakes somewhere between 5500 to 7000 rpm. just an inch or two of difference can supposedly move the resonant frequency up or down 500 to 1000 rpm, and only 2 to 4 inches will skip an entire wavelength anyway, assuming the intake tract is clean enough inside to focus anything at all. i believe in the theory, but i honestly don't think the variables are controlled well enough to ever substitute for simple cut-and-try.

and the formulas all start with some arbitrary air intake/exhaust temperatures and pressures, which will be changing in the real world, as you say. at least the ones i've looked at.

don't have a clue about exhaust-- there's so much going on there that i don't think any theory is useful to me except to give an arbitrary place to start looking for horsepower. i have some reverse cone megaphones on stock length pipes to try at first, and from then it's hacksaw time.

if i can ever get the big pieces back in my hands i'll make it go and start testing. corrected crank is due back from the grinder today.
Posted By: konon

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/17/16 8:35 am

Kevin, did the crank make it back?
Possibly warmer weather heading your way,maybe a chance to do some assembly.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/17/16 11:19 am

indeed it did. found this on my front porch yesterday afternoon. the contents looks good, both the new and the old crank:



the difficulty is that i sent the grinder my two new main bearings along with the crank so that he could correct it to the infamous british "tight, sliding fit . . . " and he damaged one of the bearings by cutting it off the crank rather than pulling it. so i'm waiting on a new timing side bearing before i can put it together.

. . . then i can evaluate the crankcase mating surface for square.

. . . then i can ream the new cam bushings, which are already installed.

. . . then i can correct tappet and cam clearances under the new tappet blocks.

. . . then i can shorten the pushrod tubes, if i have to.

. . . then i can put it all together and see where the pistons tops are at.

so at this point it's all a bunch of dominoes, each step forward waiting on the completion of the previous one. i'm all in favor of warmer weather, but at this point if i could open a can and get 14 more days without advancing the calendar, i'd do it.
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/17/16 3:39 pm

Kevin,

Looks like you have your work cutout with 9 weeks before the first ECTA meet. I am hoping everything goes together good for you to allow for some testing.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/17/16 4:14 pm

yes, everything that was supposed to take a day took a week, what was supposed to be a week took a month, and what was supposed to be one month took three. and the budget ran out periodically, as well. but if the reciprocating assembly is a go, i have backups for the top end and ignition if there are any more delays. and i have my old morgo workhorse registered as a standby with the ECTA as well:



and that doesn't need anything except picking out the main jets when the weather is warmer, and maybe fresh rings if i get over-ambitious.

so we'll see what i can do.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/17/16 6:00 pm

Got the axles safety wired? Drilling the 8 nuts for the front axle caps takes a bit of time....

On your crank...I thought that type of stuff, as in the ruined bearing ,only happens to me. I even have a knife edge bearing remover, you might think a machine shop has several...Was it the less expensive ball bearing?
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/17/16 6:45 pm

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
Got the axles safety wired? Drilling the 8 nuts for the front axle caps takes a bit of time....


rear axle and all the OIF axle cap nuts are already drilled . . . toggle and lanyard kill switches already done . . . tires are new, steering damper is in, battery is strapped down with metal, got all that done already.

Quote:

On your crank...I thought that type of stuff, as in the ruined bearing ,only happens to me. I even have a knife edge bearing remover, you might think a machine shop has several...Was it the less expensive ball bearing?


nope. roller on the drive side, mores the pity. mike at raber's is waiting on some from britain. was supposed to have been in monday . . .

what always happens to me is that when i have money, i don't have time, and when i have time, i don't have money.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/18/16 10:27 am

And chain guard? Loring changed the chain guard rule last year...I don't know if the ECTA/SCTA did also....The new rule says the chain guard must be designed not to trap a loose chain so less chance of locking up the rear wheel. For most this would be a simple straight guard on the top run extending just past the rear edge of the sprocket... Or no guard needed if the frame or other parts of the bike will prevent a loose chain from contacting the rider...
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/18/16 10:35 am

Kevin, If for some reason you do have to run the blue bike in the photo, ditch the front fender.

I dont believe the ECTA chaingaurd rule has changed from last year, 1-1/2 times wider than the chain and 1/8" thick for aluminum (cant remember the thickness for steel).
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/18/16 10:37 am

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
And chain guard?


dunno.

i talked to tonya with the ECTA on the first of february and asked her if there were any rule changes. aside from the M2010 helmet requirement she said only that the rule about machines being expected to present "a neat appearance" had been expanded to discourage XXX-rated paint jobs, due to an entry in 2015 that pushed the envelope. . .

lol

on chain guards i have a simple 3/16-inch 1 x 1.5 6061 angle to bolt over the top run, held on in two places on the swingarm. how specific did loring get?
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/18/16 10:53 am

Originally Posted By Blown Income
Kevin, If for some reason you do have to run the blue bike in the photo, ditch the front fender.


keep the advice coming. i'm all ears.

that old OIF is where i test everything for the LSR machine, and with a 3-day event i may have a chance to experiment, since i certainly won't be competitive in the 750 class with it.

it has an ancient boyer ignition, but i may swap in the pazon smartfire i bought for the 650 see how well it works. in a pinch if i experience a hillybilly-style smartfire failure, i have an old ARD that is totally self-contained, and can go on in about half an hour.

the keihin carbs for the real bike can also go on the 750, and i'd like to work with them some with an A/F gauge-- the O2 sensor doesn't like leaded gasoline, and the test bike is only 9.5 to 1 or so, rather than 11.5 or so for the 650.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/18/16 11:11 am

Originally Posted By kevin
Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
And chain guard?


dunno.

i talked to tonya with the ECTA on the first of february and asked her if there were any rule changes. aside from the M2010 helmet requirement she said only that the rule about machines being expected to present "a neat appearance" had been expanded to discourage XXX-rated paint jobs, due to an entry in 2015 that pushed the envelope. . .

lol

on chain guards i have a simple 3/16-inch 1 x 1.5 6061 angle to bolt over the top run, held on in two places on the swingarm. how specific did loring get?


What you are going to do is fine for Loring...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/18/16 11:21 am

we'll see . . .

the last minute discoveries are what stinks. i'm trying to anticipate everything that i can.

having an airstrip to run a half-mile on is really helpful in spotting things that fall off.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/27/16 8:00 pm

allright. got the corrected crank, and the replacement bearings, at the same time. the wife is down at the warehouse working on potting greens for her new farmer's market venture, so the time was ideal to stink up the kitchen and swap out the bearings in the cases.

took the oven to 250 F, and as usual the timing side ball just fell out, and the new one at room temperature just dropped in, all the way:



the annoying race in the primary side didn't want to fall out, also as usual. so i checked that the wife was still out of the house, then took the cutting board off the table and banged the cases onto it three times. ka-ting! the race came right out, i dropped the new one right in, and set my calibrated ten-pound weight on it to hold it in while the cases cooled:



so now i have mains that should fit the hoity-toity crank, and a crank that should let me close up the cases with it inside. i'll put the crank in tomorrow morning, and then as i work nights right now, i'll stop by the machinist monday with a box of doughnuts and get him to show me whether the crank centerline is parallel to the crankcase mouth.

hope so, because then i can move on to assembly and messing with the tappet/camshaft clearances.
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/27/16 8:21 pm

Glad its coming together Kevin! Hopefully everything falls together and the machinist has good news on the centerline alignment.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/27/16 8:41 pm

yes. if everything goes together like it's supposed to we're in business.

i'll drop off my back-up cylinder head with the machinist at the same time to get it bead-blasted. it's an ordinary 1970 two-carb head, so there isn't anything special, but i'll make sure it has good valve seats.

franz and grubb is out of beehive springs for a week or so, and the stock springs in the back-up head are both ancient and can't take the 0.375 of the megacycle cam. if i don't need guides in it, then all i'll have to do is set in the new springs and work the valve seat area a little.

clearly the machine is going to evolve as the different systems come together at different points in its development.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/27/16 8:53 pm

Originally Posted By kevin


franz and grubb is out of beehive springs for a week or so, and the stock springs in the back-up head are both ancient and can't take the 0.375 of the megacycle cam. if i don't need guides in it, then all i'll have to do is set in the new springs and work the valve seat area a little.


Not to take money away from F&G...Dan is getting plenty of mine, LOL.. But if there's a delay you can contact Racing Norton on Ebay. I've bought a lot of stuff from him, not using Ebay , including Kibblewhite stuff.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/27/16 9:23 pm

can't find "racing norton."

could he be the same guy at "commando specialties?"
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/27/16 9:53 pm

Kevin, why don't you use the R+D spring kit that megacycle recommends for their cams. I have them in both of my bezzers and 1 hotrod'd triumph with no issues.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/27/16 10:11 pm

i have a set of those to go with the megacycle 510-x2 i'm using on the serious bike. i confess that it hadn't occurred to me to buy another set.

but i'm curious about these beehive springs, and when the real head is ready, this back-up head will go onto a street bike of some sort, and the one with the megacycle RD springs will go onto the LSR machine . . .or maybe not.



have you measured the spring tension on the RD springs? i bought some PM/RD springs years ago to run on my street bike, and they were all 220 pounds at installed height-- pretty fierce little buggers.

either way, if the beehives are delayed i'll do as you suggest.
Posted By: konon

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/27/16 10:23 pm

Hope everything works out so you can do assembly on the bottom end.
Beehive springs are supposed to be high tech, but sure look weak.
I've always use springs from Web cams.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/28/16 7:33 am

Originally Posted By kevin
can't find "racing norton."

could he be the same guy at "commando specialties?"


This is Carl's Ebay site, click on his user name and use "contact seller" upper right...He has a website and phone number somewhere...

RacingNorton

In certain applications Beehive springs offer advantages of lighter weight, better control of of valve action and a longer service life than traditional dual springs..
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/28/16 11:47 am

Kevin, I've missed parts of this thread but was it the bearings or the crank which was causing the problem with the cases not butting up?
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/28/16 12:16 pm

the crank was actually 0.075-inches too wide, and when seating it into the drive side roller the porkchop on the timing side would actually rub the inside of the right-hand case.

i just got the new roller bearing from raber's yesterday and set both bearings in the cases, so i'm headed down to the shop in five minutes to see if the problem was solved.

i sent the crank builder the stock crank that came out of the motor along with the one he made, so he had a known-good unit to work from.

crossing my fingers.
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/28/16 1:08 pm

Good luck.

My motor will be coming apart in a couple of weeks and the two cranks compared. I can't do anything about my cranks width issue, so I'm having to create more room in the motor for it to work.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/28/16 1:59 pm

success!

probably, anyway. the crank goes into the cases, and the cases close up correctly.



so in the morning the assembly goes to the machine shop for checking.

since i'm going there anyway, i'll drop off the back-up cylinder head from an eBay motor to have it bead-blasted, so i can start work on having some sort of head ready by the end of april, should the other one not be completed in time:



much to my surprise, the head gasket on this mail-order motor looked brand-new, and the cylinders have fresh paint up under the head. the 0.040 piston tops are almost free of carbon:





it hasn't been honed, so it looks like the PO took it all apart to freshen it up, then decided to sell it instead. the head is pretty clean as well:



this motor has some hotrod history, apparently. it originally had a hayward belt drive which was removed before i bought it, and the rockers were equipped with spacers and a bit of flash polishing. the head itself had 42mm OD carb spigots for mikunis. as far as i can tell, it's running stock springs and doesn't have any clear evidence of port work. but i'll look more closely when it's cleaned up.

why did the PO do all this work and then apparently run the motor for about an hour before parking it? i don't know, but it makes me suspicious of the bottom end. it wasn't fully assembled when i got it-- no pushrods and the replacement stock primary components were in a box. but when i have some time i'll go into it. right now all i care about is checking the head for issues.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/28/16 2:06 pm

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike

In certain applications Beehive springs offer advantages of lighter weight, better control of of valve action and a longer service life than traditional dual springs..


found the norton guy from your link. thank you.

i have zero experience with beehive springs, but the only way to get any is to try them out. megacycle's springs are made by RD, who took over the old SW operation in partnership with megacycle. interestingly, RD also sells beehives for triumphs, but they don't appear in the megacycle catalog. too new? too weird? i don't know.

on paper and by reputation, the beehive design seems like a very good idea. so we'll see. this motor doesn't look like it's going to ever have a final configuration, at least until the day i blow it up.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/28/16 2:07 pm

Originally Posted By Allan Gill
Good luck.

My motor will be coming apart in a couple of weeks and the two cranks compared. I can't do anything about my cranks width issue, so I'm having to create more room in the motor for it to work.



what exactly are you doing to it?
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/28/16 4:11 pm

A single beehive spring is lighter than the equivalent straight dual spring.Weight saved on the valve side of the rockers is far more important than the tappet side. Since the use of Spintron equipment to spin dummy motors and valve trains at realistic rpms' a lot has been learned about valve train harmonics.

Valve spring 7000 rpm
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/28/16 4:50 pm

Originally Posted By kevin
Originally Posted By Allan Gill
Good luck.

My motor will be coming apart in a couple of weeks and the two cranks compared. I can't do anything about my cranks width issue, so I'm having to create more room in the motor for it to work.



what exactly are you doing to it?


Trying to get workable space. The engine has the needle roller conversion (A65) since the engine build a couple of years ago, it's been a little bit tight in there. One needle roller bearing cracked from heat/friction although the motor turned freely when cold.
I swapped it with a bearing of the same type, but I believe that the same may have happened again. So I've source a slightly different bearing. Which doesn't incorporate the ball bearing section in the cage (which I didn't use anyway) and the needle rollers are the same width on both bearings.

Im having an old TS bush trimmed to support and fill the 4 MM of void which will be left by the new bearing. It won't be needed but I like to think I have a thrust face if I need one. (It's worth noting that the full combination bearing was slightly wider than what the case allowed.

There will be photos to accompany the description in the coming weeks.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/04/16 10:57 pm


you say that the crank in your machine was okay when cold, but tightened up when hot? that seems to be the reverse of the triumph pattern, where the clearance seems to increase, significantly.

i have been told it's possible to fit a T120 crank with zero endplay when cold, and find it to have 0.012 when warm, hence the rule with triumphs about endplay: "if you have any, you're okay . . "

Quote:
Which doesn't incorporate the ball bearing section in the cage (which I didn't use anyway) and the needle rollers are the same width on both bearings.


what exactly do the bearings you've been using look like?
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/04/16 11:30 pm

got the cases back from the machinist. he had a depth gauge which i don't own, and measured across both bores to the surface of each rod journal:



measurements came back with only two tenths difference between left and right, so i think it's good. there's a little unevenness between the castings on the forward crankcase mouth surface, but i'll see if i can stone the high spots down tomorrow. i want the surface as clean as possible, because i don't know what i'll be using in the way of gaskets. i have steel rods, so i'm hoping stretch won't be an issue, so i'm looking for squish around 0.040, leaning towards the greater space, i think. i'll be trying to get this by balancing gaskets, top and bottom.

the new camshaft bushings are already in, and i'll ream them tomorrow morning if i have time. they're sized close enough to allow the cams to slip in both left and right sides, but with the cases bolted together the exhaust cam won't turn. then i'm up to fixing the tappet clearance issues that are still there.
Posted By: NickL

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/04/16 11:45 pm

Allan is talking about the combination ball/needle race T/S conversion on his A65.

As you say if the motor turns over there is enough end float as the cases always grow. BUT a couple of blokes here say they have had problems with the cranks growing faster than the cases.
I have never experienced that, and would be inclined to think it was something else giving the problem.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/05/16 12:31 am

maybe so. when i originally tried to fit this modified T140 crank into the 1970 T120 cases with the bearings installed, they wouldn't close up. i had the grinder cut the T140 crank to match the dimensions of the original 1970 T120 crank i sent him.

i found out a day or so ago that the metric timing side bearing used in the T140 motor was a bit narrower than the inch-sized bearing it replaced. to compensate, the T140 crank is a little wider, by some 0.075 inches, which is why the 1970 cases wouldn't close.

so this doesn't explain cranks growing faster than the cases do, but it's an example of how clearance issues can crop up for unexpected reasons.
Posted By: NickL

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/05/16 12:48 am

The metric crank has a 'boss' on the T/S.
I have fitted an earlier crank into later cases and had to use a spacer as well as putting a sleeve on the shaft.
It's always the way,,,,, shortly after i'd done that a 750 crank became available, which i bought and have sitting on the shelf. Maybe i'll fit it,,,, maybe not. I havn't even got around to fitting the later motor which is a T120RV. I fancied the 5 speed box and thought i'd put a lump together with the 5 speed and the morgo on it for the old '69. The purists will hate me eh?
But it's sitting on the bench collecting dust at present.
Bloody motorbikes, they keep you fiddling!
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/05/16 1:43 am

Originally Posted By NickL

I have fitted an earlier crank into later cases and had to use a spacer as well as putting a sleeve on the shaft.


see, it's easier to go the other way-- you just trim stuff off, rather than having to figure out how to add it back in.

Quote:

I fancied the 5 speed box and thought i'd put a lump together with the 5 speed and the morgo on it for the old '69. The purists will hate me eh?
But it's sitting on the bench collecting dust at present.
Bloody motorbikes, they keep you fiddling!



my old T120RV did very well with the morgo. i have other stuff to keep original-- that one just gets better with the changes.

still fiddling with it
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/05/16 4:11 am

Originally Posted By NickL
Allan is talking about the combination ball/needle race T/S conversion on his A65.

As you say if the motor turns over there is enough end float as the cases always grow. BUT a couple of blokes here say they have had problems with the cranks growing faster than the cases.
I have never experienced that, and would be inclined to think it was something else giving the problem.


Yeah when assembled cold the crank would turn over by hand, when I stripped the engine I had noticed this



This was the original bearing, well the bearing I fitted in its place. Originally an NKIB, this is an NKIA, difference being that the B would lock end float, the A only stops end float upto a set point. The ball race section I removed and control end float at the primary side.



I have the greatest feeling I will find this bearing to look like the one in picture one. So I found an RNA bearing which is similar but without the ball race, so it's won't be exposed in the case. Depending on clearance, I may also remove the stepped part of the case which locates the thrust washer, thus giving more clearance.

Otherwise if it wasn't for the drop in power at top end compared to before the crank change. you would say the bike ran great.
Posted By: konon

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/05/16 9:55 am

Allan, with this conversion shouldn't the crank be locked to one side or the other? Not allowed to float. Perhaps the B bearing would be the better choice.
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/05/16 10:05 am

The crank is locked, to the drive side

Before the crank was changed, it had .018" end float when cold. Rode it for 3500+ miles like that. Never caused a problem.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/05/16 10:34 am

Originally Posted By Allan Gill





i've never seen a double bearing like that. so the rollers control radial play, and balls control side thrust?
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/05/16 10:38 am

Yeah. I pulled out the roller race so it only has the needle roller part but of course the cage is still full width
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/05/16 10:54 am

very clearly i need to go through your build thread on this machine again.

so as of now the balls are gone, and so no endfloat control on this side. now i'm really curious. why did you use this bearing, as opposed to one that wouldn't need work?
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/05/16 1:47 pm

camshaft bush reaming.

not knowing any better, when i disassembled this old seized up motor i did what i thought was a Good Thing and pulled the camshaft bushings from the cases. they were probably okay, as i have since learned they generally are. but then i discovered the various pitfalls of the bushing replacement-- sintered metal versus solid bronze, sized versus non-sized . . . didn't know anything about that when i took em out.

what i did know was that with the cases buttoned together, the new cams wouldn't turn. the bushings had already been honed almost to spec size by my machine shop, but not reamed for final. so i bought the tools to do the reaming and this morning went through the process for the first time, carefully holding my mouth in what i estimated was the right position.

worked fine.













took several tries to get it right, cleaning the bushings out and fitting the cams, finding them still too tight to turn freely, and going through the process again. but now the cases are tight, and the cams both turn completely freely and have a bit of endplay.



now it's noon, which is 3AM for my current night shift work day, so i'm off to bed.
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/05/16 3:51 pm

Originally Posted By kevin
very clearly i need to go through your build thread on this machine again.

so as of now the balls are gone, and so no endfloat control on this side. now i'm really curious. why did you use this bearing, as opposed to one that wouldn't need work?


The original devimead conversion used this bearing. With the original crank it didn't pose a problem. When it cracked I simply swapped it for another of its kind, I really didn't know what to use to be frank as I wasn't expecting this problem. I only stripped the motor as I thought the cam which was in was causing the lack of top end power, revved out great in lower gears. As I am expecting to find this problem again I have done more research and found a similar bearing but narrower because it lacks the ball race and is simply a needle roller only.
It was only when I refitted the stock cam after the last strip that I found I was still not getting a top speed like I did before. I narrowed it down to two things.

1) the bearing was once again causing an issue and friction = heat= power loss

2) with the crank having lots of balancing drillings it could have lightened it quite a bit and lost some of the inertia effect.

The bike has run a wide variety of gearing, and now has a CR box, but none of that improved the top speed.

I still have the old crank with its flywheel and if there is no evidence of friction when I strip it in an hour or so. Then I may fit the old flywheel and see what's what. But I'm doubting I will need to go to that extreme.
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/06/16 5:59 am

Kevin, apologies for the thread hijack, my thread is now updated to include the information.

Out of interest, how do the cam bushings cope for oil supply on Triumphs? On my A65 builds I open the feed holes to allow a pool of oil to collect. using a ball ended cutting bit in the die grinder it creates a bowl shape in the case.
Posted By: DMadigan

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/08/16 2:32 pm

Kevin- that is a stock Torrington combined needle roller bearing (metric catalog). Presumably DNJB5905 25 x 23 x 42mm with a 25mm inner race width? Or DNJB5906 30 x 23 x 47 with 25mm inner race?
Allan - I think the bearing should have been installed the other way around with the balls to the outside. The thin section of the outer race is at the balls and the outer shell is not supported where the flange was cut to align the old bush bearing. The thicker roller section would stand up to the crank flex better. Better yet since the case had to be machined for the metric bearing would be to build up the case and fully support the bearing shell.
Posted By: NickL

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/08/16 7:58 pm

Looking at Allans' picture i think the bearing was in the correct way around.
The early cranks were wider by a fair bit as they used the ball drive side race.
The normal combination bearing is 47 od with a 30mm id sleeve. You can just get the next size up in there but it's very close to the oil pump stud. (55 od 35 id)
Posted By: DMadigan

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/08/16 9:14 pm

Looking again, the balls were to the outside. The second picture shows the balls toward the case split and the first was too dark to tell.
From the proximity of the oil pump stud hole it appears they (SRM?) used the larger NKJB5907 35 X 27 X 55mm bearing you stated.
So why not put the bronze washer on the inside, screw another on the outside and use a shim cup between the pinion gear and crank, relieving the oil pump body where the shim cup will be? The nose of the pump only has to sit on the stud for location as the rear two hold it anyway. Tightening the front stud can distort the pump body.
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/09/16 3:21 am

Dave, what you saw in the first picture was the needle rollers, not the balls as they were never fitted in this bike.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/10/16 10:00 pm

Originally Posted By Allan Gill
Kevin, apologies for the thread hijack, my thread is now updated to include the information.


not a problem, absolutely. it's all one conversation.

Quote:

Out of interest, how do the cam bushings cope for oil supply on Triumphs? On my A65 builds I open the feed holes to allow a pool of oil to collect. using a ball ended cutting bit in the die grinder it creates a bowl shape in the case.


dunno. i'll have to give it some thought. the way the cam bushes last as long as they do in the 650, i don't think that's one of the problem areas. i'll look more closely at it.



Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/10/16 11:28 pm

speaking of cam bushes, now that they're in i was able to return to the previous issue of the tappet guide blocks. the problem i had with the stock units was that the top of the tappet foot would hit the ceiling of their recess when lifted up to the 0.375 of the megacycle cam. stock was closer to 0.322, even a bit less with the worn cams i took out.

john healy suggested turning down an old guide block to make it a slip fit in the jugs to look for clearance issues. that was a good idea, so i took one down and had it trimmed. the blue paint is so i can pick it out easier:



this tool works well, and let me find out pretty quickly that the stock clearances above the tappet foot were about 0.053 on the exhaust, and 0.070 on the intake, with no base gasket in place:



the stock guide blocks were the ones that wouldn't work with the megacycle cam. kibblewhite makes guide blocks with recesses that are deeper, for higher lift cams:



from left to right: stock guide block, stock with ears relieved for cam clearance, and kibblewhite. the ears on the kibblewhite block will have to be trimmed as well.

the kibblewhite blocks were a bit tight going in, and when they were in the tappet bores were compressed too tightly for the right side tappets to pass in on either the intake or exhaust. i'll have to see whether relieving the guide blocks for less of an interference fit will open the tappet bores enough. otherwise i'll have to have the guide block relieved and the bores honed, both.

anyway, the left side tappets would enter the bores, so i could set up the case half and cylinders to see whether the cam would turn:



. . . and it would, but not with a lot of clearance: 0.025 on the left exhaust, 0.042 on the left intake.

so i tried a base gasket. stock composition base gaskets are variable, and i seem to remember a thin one i had at 0.015. this copper one is 0.53mm, or 0.020 inches:



with this gasket in place, clearances increased to 0.045 exhaust and 0.062 intake, still not as much as with the stock arrangement:



i've been told that shooting for 0.040 is enough clearance to allow for wobbling on a six-inch cam, so it would seem that i have enough, using that gasket. a thicker gasket would give more clearance at the price of reducing the compression ratio, which i don't want to do.

options include raising the tappet blocks a bit with a spacer (and compensating with shorter pushrod tubes) or maybe something else. got to think about it.

the bigger problem is the distortion of the kibblewhite blocks when seated into the jugs. that will obviously require some fixing.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/12/16 5:07 pm

Originally Posted By Allan Gill

Out of interest, how do the cam bushings cope for oil supply on Triumphs? On my A65 builds I open the feed holes to allow a pool of oil to collect. using a ball ended cutting bit in the die grinder it creates a bowl shape in the case.


the feed holes don't seem particularly sophisticated:

left intake:



left exhaust:



right intake:



right exhaust:



your suggestion about grinding a little bowl to collect oil is a good one. mostly the feed seems to be seep down the case wall and splash. the spinning crankshaft itself is the oil distributor in here, but i'm thinking that the breather might have an effect too. how much i don't know.
Posted By: Andy Higham

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/12/16 6:12 pm

Another place to check for clearance is between the cams and the flywheel. When I put high lift cams (T140) in my T120 motor, the cam lobes touched the flywheel, a few minutes in the lathe solved it. T140 flywheels are a smaller diameter
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/15/16 10:38 pm

hi andy

i've got lots of clearance there-- some 0.125 inches or so. i'm using a T140 crank, so that's probably the reason.

took the jugs down to the machinist to get him to turn up some spacers to put under the guide blocks on top. when i have them set i'll cut the ears to fit the cams.

i need to get a lathe one of these days so i can do this sort of stuff myself. no money for it now.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/16/16 6:36 am

Originally Posted By kevin
hi andy

i've got lots of clearance there-- some 0.125 inches or so. i'm using a T140 crank, so that's probably the reason.

took the jugs down to the machinist to get him to turn up some spacers to put under the guide blocks on top. when i have them set i'll cut the ears to fit the cams.

i need to get a lathe one of these days so i can do this sort of stuff myself. no money for it now.


My lathe recently became useless when the drive gears for lower speeds lost more than a few teeth...I replaced it last week with a nice 1951 South Bend Model A 9 x 36 inch lathe..800 bucks..
Kevin, You need to step away and look at the tappet issue from another angle. It's my opinion you are obsessing over it and creating a mud pit...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/16/16 11:22 am

i think it's solved, now tony. i try to be careful, but i only have an hour or two per day total when i'm not working or sleeping. things take a very long time for me to accomplish and that makes it look like i'm worrying for weeks and weeks. the problem i originally had was simple: the cams couldn't turn-- there wasn't enough clearance above the tappet foot and they would jam. using the new kibblewhite tappet blocks without a base gasket gave 0.025 clearance, doing nothing more.

adding a simple 0.020 ring under the tappet block shoulder gives a minimum clearance of 0.045, and that's enough for me to be comfortable, as far as i know. i can use one of the thinner square rings under the pushrod tube to compensate. i can add a base gasket for 0.015 to 0.020 more, if i need to, but i think i'm allright.

those south bend lathes are elegant dinosaurs. i've seen a few very nice ones for sale, but not in my budget yet. have you looked around the internet for spare gears? there's people who take old lathes and part them out, so yours might be salvageable.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/16/16 11:38 am

Oh....short work periods don't allow enough time to think it through...
But I realize if you have a certain goal than things need be adjusted accordingly...Carry on...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/16/16 2:59 pm

my goal is to be able to be able to miss a shift and see 8000 rpm on the tach without the motor immediately blowing up. steel rods, billet crank, light pistons, and enough clearances in the tight spots are all intended to build as much of a cushion as i can.

just making the hardware work together will be enough for me at the first iteration. after it's on the track i'll switch to tweaking the tuning.

doesn't look like this will be ready by the end of next month, though. i'll be there using the old street bike to experiment with intake and exhaust.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/16/16 5:45 pm

breathers:





may have to relieve the brass inside the cap to clear the rocker adjuster:



i'm not sure whether rocker box breathers do any good on a stock motor, but i'm sealing off the primary for the belt drive and have to vent the crankcases somewhere besides the stock location. the drain holes in the tappet guide blocks aren't very big, but i think every bit helps.

i was originally going to drill out the case for a 1/2-inch NPT fitting, because the outlet orifice was 0.47-inches across-- nice and big. but it would require a hole in the case almost 7/8-inches across. so i decided to put in a quarter-inch fitting and leave room for the bigger one if necessary. i'll have another breather off the timing cover, so there will be enough area.









Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/17/16 8:45 am

That's neat. I would still some small holes at the lower as well for drainage.

There is talk about the Pistons acting like a pump if no one way valve is fitted. I suggest your try the bike with and without a valve. My A65 responds better without one. Especially if you shut down throttle and reopen again ( like a bend ) power loss is recovered better that way IME. You can also tweak cam timing advance without worrying about crank case breathing issues. In fact I'd plug the original breather up.
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/17/16 8:57 am

Kevin, thats the same thing I did to my A65 engine breather, so far it has worked out well. I did install a 1 way reed valve though.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/17/16 12:11 pm

Originally Posted By Allan Gill
That's neat. I would still some small holes at the lower as well for drainage.

There is talk about the Pistons acting like a pump if no one way valve is fitted. I suggest your try the bike with and without a valve. My A65 responds better without one. Especially if you shut down throttle and reopen again ( like a bend ) power loss is recovered better that way IME. You can also tweak cam timing advance without worrying about crank case breathing issues. In fact I'd plug the original breather up.


i do have a one-way valve that i'm maybe screwing over a hole in the timing cover. i got it from grandpaul, who sells them for nortons. i believe he said it was the breather off a later triumph. at the moment, though, it looks like my cylinder head is going to be late-- it will be twin-plugged using a pazon. because of that, i'll be running a back-up single plug head with an old ARD at first. i can't bear to drill out the ARD cover for the breather (he ain't making any more . . . ) so i'll have the two rocker box ports and the one in the front crankcase at first.

i'll be putting in the older seal separating the crankcase and primary, and stuffing patent plate pins in the little level holes, so there won't be anything left of the stock breather system.

interesting that you've noticed differences in performance with and without the valve. what exactly do you mean about cam timing differences with the valve? i haven't thought that through.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/17/16 12:12 pm

Originally Posted By Blown Income
Kevin, thats the same thing I did to my A65 engine breather, so far it has worked out well. I did install a 1 way reed valve though.


chris, what valve did you use? i may end up trying out the yamaha 650 valve, just because it's so easy to fit.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/17/16 12:28 pm

gearbox bearings. i've already done the mains, so it was back in the oven for these. should have done them at the same time, but i tend to over-concentrate on things one task at a time.

handful of tools . . .sockets for drifts, calipers, and a couple of special drifts for the needle bearings.



i have no idea where or when i bought this old drift-- it fits the needle bearings closely but is a bit wide to seat them to the correct depth-- it interferes with parts of the gearbox inner cover casting on the right side:



this one i bought off eBay a while back for wheel bearings. it's actually too soft for that, but it's perfect for the needle bearings in the gearbox. i won't be banging it in and out of the wheel hubs anymore after having to dress it for the needles today:



the ball bearings go in and out easily after warming the cases up to 210 F and tapping with a close-fitting socket on a half-inch extension:



i put the circlips on right away so they wouldn't get dislodged while i messed with the layshaft needle bearings:



those went in and out easily using the eBay drift. it supports the shape of the needle cage while the bearings go in and out so you don't end up discovering you've destroyed the bearing after you get it in:



the needle bearings are just held in place by the tight fit, and you have to adjust their height so they stick up far enough to capture the thrust washers at each end but not so high that the layshaft rubs on the bearing cage and not the washer. clearance is pretty tolerant, 0.073 to 0.078, easy to find by tapping and measuring:



this is an old thrust washer, which is still perfectly good and will go in the spares box. you can see how it needs to stick upo higher than the needle roller cage. they don't seem to wear much unless something goes wrong:



done, and the wife has the kitchen back. noon now, night shift midnight. back in the rack.

Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/17/16 2:12 pm

Originally Posted By kevin
Originally Posted By Blown Income
Kevin, thats the same thing I did to my A65 engine breather, so far it has worked out well. I did install a 1 way reed valve though.


chris, what valve did you use? i may end up trying out the yamaha 650 valve, just because it's so easy to fit.


Kevin, I cant remember who the valve is from but I can check and see if there are any markings on it.
Posted By: shel

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/18/16 11:34 am

Originally Posted By kevin
Originally Posted By Blown Income
Kevin, thats the same thing I did to my A65 engine breather, so far it has worked out well. I did install a 1 way reed valve though.


chris, what valve did you use? i may end up trying out the yamaha 650 valve, just because it's so easy to fit.

I have one on my Bonnie, I think it works good.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/18/16 1:06 pm

shel, where did you run your vent line from?
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/18/16 1:42 pm

Originally Posted By shel
Originally Posted By kevin
Originally Posted By Blown Income
Kevin, thats the same thing I did to my A65 engine breather, so far it has worked out well. I did install a 1 way reed valve though.


chris, what valve did you use? i may end up trying out the yamaha 650 valve, just because it's so easy to fit.

I have one on my Bonnie, I think it works good.


I also added one to my dads Bonnie using the timing plug behind the cylinders in the case.
Posted By: shel

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/18/16 5:27 pm

Originally Posted By kevin
shel, where did you run your vent line from?

Mine is a 76 so I installed it at the highest point in my vent hose off the primary.
I have a leak from somewhere under the primary that I've never been able to fix. When riding the bike it will blow oil on the left silencer, when I park it after a ride it will drip a small spot on the floor and then quit as it cools. I think it's porosity or a very fine crack, after I installed valve it doesn't leak anymore. I bought mine from Mikes XS it wasn't very expensive
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/23/16 12:31 am

i have the same stock system in my 1972-- just the hose from that little hole in the inner primary case. the open system seemed to work just fine for a breather, although i do have a drip.

my machine never leaked a drop for almost three years after i bought it. then i moved from oklahoma to arizona and the hot weather made it piddle like a puppy. up here in ohio it's tapered back off.
Posted By: NickL

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/23/16 9:02 pm

Originally Posted By kevin
my goal is to be able to be able to miss a shift and see 8000 rpm on the tach without the motor immediately blowing up. steel rods, billet crank, light pistons, and enough clearances in the tight spots are all intended to build as much of a cushion as i can.

just making the hardware work together will be enough for me at the first iteration. after it's on the track i'll switch to tweaking the tuning.

.


What ignition system are you going to use?
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/24/16 9:24 am

i have a pazon smartfire for it, nick, a twin plug version. so the plan was to have a rev limiter. but my twin plug head has been delayed and so i'll either be using a boyer or an old ARD magneto i had rebuilt on a backup single-plug head until i get the good one.

i still have a point plate and AAU rotor kicking around as well. hadn't thought about doing that, but it's a possibility too.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/24/16 9:49 am

The fastest Triumph 650 in the world uses a Morris magneto with a single plug head....The fastest 650 push rod modified production bike uses a Pazon Smartfire with a single plug head wink grin
Kevin, you might be next into the record books bigt
Posted By: NickL

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/24/16 6:21 pm

If you are using an old type boyer or pazon (the analogue ones) i have a few rev-limiters that would work with them. You could have one for the postage.
I built a batch for someone a few years ago, i still have a few. Send me a pm if you are interested.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/25/16 9:07 am

nick, that would be great-- i have a couple of older mark 3 boyers kicking around.

tell me how much postage you need and where to send it. ive sent you a pm.

thank you
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/28/16 12:09 pm

plugged up the crankcase passages into the primary using a 1/16-inch bit and some patent plate pins. for some reason imgur won't let me rotate images.




Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/28/16 5:25 pm

That's a good example of a simple elegant modification rather than tapping and a screw..On my race bike I peened the holes closed and sealed with epoxy...True hillbilly, hammer and glue...

Are you ready for the track with the street Triumph? Will you be there more than one day ?


I want to see your race bike in action and will make the trip when it's ready regardless if I'm racing or not.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/28/16 7:25 pm

elegant is not what really happens here. i just finished cooking my motor again because the crankshaft wouldn't go in-- apparently when i put the gearbox bearings in the timing side main (which was already in) dropped a few thousands of inch, and i didn't notice. couldn't close up the cases again, which made me think unharmonious thoughts. but the kitchen now has the reassuring aroma of hot assembly lube, so i'm off to button things up. the motor is going together now-- the chassis is essentially done.

i'll be at wilmington this first meet with my old morgo, all three days. i'm interested in focusing that machine as well, but also i want to try out the carbs and pipes that will go on the real bike, so i'll be experimenting with open megaphones and the FCRs. i thought briefly about pulling the street motor and slipping it into the LSR chassis to see how that worked, but they have different head steady systems.

i'm not ready at all, but i don't care anymore. i'll just show up with whatever i have and enough tools to deal with whatever it needs.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/29/16 9:17 am

I expect blow by blow live coverage via text of your successful Ohio experience grin
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/29/16 10:53 am

Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/29/16 11:00 am

Kevin,

You should have plenty of time on thursday for making adjustments as only tech inspection is on that day.

What time do you think you will be arriving? I will be there in the morning on thursday. Sorry to hear that the purpose built bike wont be ready but glad your going to make it with the "street" bike. What class did you enter?
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/29/16 12:37 pm

i've got a motel room for wednesday night, so i'll be there first thing thursday to look at everybody's stuff and fix whatever the tech people say needs to be changed. hopefully very little or nothing.

i'll have the old T120 in MP/G 750/4. it's a standard-bore morgo, with OS intakes, twin plugs, a little headwork, and megacycle's old 1000 street cams. i've just put 34mm mikunis on it to replace the 32mms i ran for years, and don't have the jetting right yet, nor the timing either. but there are four weekends left for that.

i'll be eaten alive by the real 750s, but they won't any more fun than i will.
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/29/16 1:04 pm

Cool, I'm sure we will run into each other at some point thursday. I'm bringing a spare ignition with me this time just incase I have issues and hopefully my chaingaurd will pass tech this time. My previous gaurd was .005" undersized.

BTW, was checking the list and your listed in the 650cc class, you may want to call Tonya and get this straightened out prior to the meet.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/29/16 6:01 pm

they miked the metal thickness?

ooh.

something else to check.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/29/16 7:23 pm

I had to modify the ECTA/SCTA approved chain guard for the Loring Timing Assoc, at Maine by moving it furthur away from the chain. The LTA says it's better to run no chain guard if the design of the bike shields the rider from a loose chain..Their experience is a broken chain is more likely to jam up in the guard and lock the rear wheel more that it'll beat on the rider...Can you pull in the clutch before the bike goes into a skid? grin
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/30/16 7:28 am

Originally Posted By kevin
they miked the metal thickness?

ooh.

something else to check.


Yea, first time for this. They still let me race but it was marked in my inspection log book to be verified at the next event I attended. I'm bringing some extra aluminum flat bar with me just incase.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/03/16 6:03 pm

the old aftermarket steel chainguard i've been running for years is undersize for ECTA-- it mikes at 0.085 or so, under the 0.09375 needed for 3/32-inches.

i've got some aluminum that's just over 1/8-inch, though, so i can use that.

thanks for the heads-up-- i never thought to measure the steel thickness of the chainguard i had on it.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/09/16 7:28 pm

shoot

back to the real machine. learned a bunch at wilmington that will be useful in tuning it, though.

stuck the pistons in so i could find TDC to do the timing pinions. these are nominally 11.75 to 1, and if i get some time before june i'll actually measure the compression ratio.

not.



i have to smooth the crowns some. the edges of the valve pockets are razor-sharp, and i don't need that with a compression ratio over 11 to 1.

didn't take any pictures, but i filed the ears on the tappet blocks to give me clearance with this megacycle 510-x2 camshaft. i'd already raised the blocks using 0.030 valve spring shims under the flange, so i'm running some 0.045 inches of clearance between the tops of the lifters and the roof of the recess in the guide blocks, without a base gasket. so i can bump that to 0.060 with a fiber gasket, or more with a copper one, if necessary.

i did take a picture of the cam-to-crank clearance-- lots. so much i didn't even measure.



filing the tappet blocks made me install the jugs in a half-case to be able to get at the ears with a file.i tighten everything to specs doing this, and it reminded me of the old torque-wrench-on-the-base-nuts problem that comes up every now and then. on this motor, you have to get a 12-point in there, and there isn't room for a wrench to use for the 35 footpounds it takes.

years ago i came up with a solution to this:



i took this half-inch ring wrench and ground it until it would fit over all the cylinder base nuts, even the shrouded ones:



then an ordinary half-inch torque wrench fits into the open end of the ring wrench:



i did the math long ago and determined that the new, longer tool only needed to read 27 footpounds to give 35 footpounds at the end of the wrench. so that's what i've used for years. works up on the headbolts, too, with some other numbers i've forgotten.

anyway, i put on a degree wheel and a dial indicator and set up the cams. megacycle specifies lifter clearances at 0.020 and 0.040, whichever you want to use. i got the intake opening within a half-degree just by setting the wheel to the dash mark instead of the dot, on the stock keyway, 36 BTDC as opposed to the specified 36.5, using the 0.040 lifter position. that was super easy.



on the exhaust, megacycle's 0.040 timing specified 63.5 BBDC to open the exhaust valve. the stock marks and keyway were way off, at around 50-plus-something BBDC. so i moved the pinion a whole tooth, and got some 68.5. going backwards to the next keyway took me down to 63 BBDC, which is as close as i need to be happy with it.

so now the correct configuration is immortalized in digital imagery:



remember when you used to have to makes notes and sketches of stuff like this? my old manuals are full of pencil drawings of cam pinion markings, and notes on this and that. now i just take ONE picture of what it's supposed to look like, once i get it set up, and i don't have to worry about losing the papers any more.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/09/16 7:40 pm

the problem now is that the DPO lost the keyed washer that goes behind the crank pinion. or maybe i did, but probably not, since it wasn't in the disassembly bag and he messed up the timing chest pretty thoroughly, after all.

but brandon at steadfast is sending one. went into the mail today, monday, from eBay, even though they weren't answering the telephones there.

nobody answered at franz and grubb, either, and i need two intake valves in a hurry. the sad story of my various cylinder heads continues, but at this moment i have one ready to go with the exception of intake valves and some valve guide trimming . . . so i'll call dan in the a.m. and get him to overnight me two 1.600 black diamond valves, and that part will be DONE.

. . . maybe.
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/09/16 8:14 pm

Looking good Kevin. Is the rest of the bike ready?

I did the back to back at Ohio once, it was pretty stressful. I can't imagine what your going thru with getting the new bike ready with 3 weeks left!
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/09/16 8:26 pm

the rest of the bike is . . . ready, sort of.

i am going insane. is it only three weeks?

i have an ARD, so quick and dirty ignition is available.

i have jetted VM mikunis, so if i don't have time to set up the FCRs, there's something i can bolt in with a minimum of testing.

i don't have the 1 5/8-inch exhaust, but i have the 1 1/2-inch pipes with megaphones from last week, so that's a go . . . .

don't have the tube tanks, but i have a 60's TR6 stock tank that will bolt on.

did i make reservations at Motel Hell? not yet.

bring your own towels and toilet paper to that place.

Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/09/16 8:36 pm

Kevin,

Sorry, If you count this week you have 4 weeks with working right up to the event. Hopefully everything else in the motor goes well for you. Are you adding the fairing this time out also? What Motel did you stay at? Does the Hampton Inn or Holiday Inn Express have rooms available?

Isn't racing fun! Best of luck, If I were closer I would give you a hand getting it ready.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/09/16 8:51 pm

ha

no, no fairing. that would be too complicated to add right now. all i want is for it to be tuned to go fast and not to blow.

dunno about the hampton or the holiday . . .i stayed at the budget inn, right off exit 50-- $46 per night. old, run-down, but fast internet and quiet with lots of rooms, lots of parking, and fast food and gas right there by the pilot truck stop. i'll do it again in a heartbeat.

i have a TR7 disc brake front end, with a disc brake on it. you would think that would be simple, but it took ages to get a converter fitting from the lockheed caliper to AN lines and an AN to metric converter to get to the asian master cylinder. now it's taken three (3) iterations to get a rebuild kit for the caliper. at least if it isn't ready i can just take it off.

who needs brakes?
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/09/16 9:00 pm

Totally understand with the front brake, just remember if you take it off don't go and try and grab for it and it not be there!
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/09/16 9:04 pm

. . . like at 134 mph, like somebody i know?
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/09/16 9:11 pm

Originally Posted By kevin
. . . like at 134 mph, like somebody i know?


Yup, fixing that issue now with a disc setup. Not going thru that feeling again especially with speeds I'm trying to achieve with this bike!
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/10/16 1:20 pm

cranking on all the last minute stuff.

pistons have a sharp edge valve pocket (that's mung, not pitting, in the picture-- these pistons are JE, cut up by ed vallicutt at EV engineering, who i cannot reccommend enough.)



anyway, i have emory cloth to smooth them up



and polishing compound



breaking the sharp edge and cleaning up is quick and easy when you're not picky



one issue that may come up is shrouding of the intake valve. this is an old 1.656 OS valve i have from somewhere or other, and it fills that pocket pretty full



but the first head is going to have stock intake valves, so it shouldn't be a problem just yet. when i put in larger intakes i'll revisit the pistons.



Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/10/16 1:41 pm

damn.

i wonder if the tanks leak?
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/10/16 2:13 pm

Nice work on the Pistons. I gave mine another polish (as well as the rods) when it was apart a few months ago. You've done right by removing the worst by hand and just using the wheel for finishing.

I found on the A65 the 44mm valves were a fit on the piston like yours. Use some child's plasticine on top of the Pistons to make sure the valves clear properly. Shouldn't be an issue with standard
Valves but those big valves Can catch pretty quick when things aren't 100% the plasticine will show up how deep into the pocket the valve sits.



There's also a strip of lead solder in there in case things got really close and the plasticine didn't stay stuck to the Pistons. The solder would have at least squashed so I could have a measurement.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/10/16 2:44 pm

damn, what fantastic piston crowns you have. are they all like that? triumph stayed stuck in the 1930's with the geometrically satisfying hemispheres that squashed into the old grapefruit rinds at TDC. and 37 BTDC timing as a result. BSA and norton were so much ahead.

i had an issue with pockets and the valve margins years ago on a morgo. had the pockets opened up and deepened a bit, been fine ever since.

i can deal with the clearances, but i'm trying to maximize flow at low lift, and a shrouded intake valve isn't the solution to that problem. but at this point i don't care. any valve will work, at this point, so long as it doesn't hit and someone will sell it to me.
Posted By: GS DAVE

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/10/16 5:37 pm

Didn't know what mung was so did a search on the net. My god what an eye opener that was blush
Excellent thread by the way, hope all goes well...
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/10/16 6:28 pm

Originally Posted By kevin
damn, what fantastic piston crowns you have. are they all like that? triumph stayed stuck in the 1930's with the geometrically satisfying hemispheres that squashed into the old grapefruit rinds at TDC. and 37 BTDC timing as a result. BSA and norton were so much ahead.

i had an issue with pockets and the valve margins years ago on a morgo. had the pockets opened up and deepened a bit, been fine ever since.

i can deal with the clearances, but i'm trying to maximize flow at low lift, and a shrouded intake valve isn't the solution to that problem. but at this point i don't care. any valve will work, at this point, so long as it doesn't hit and someone will sell it to me.


Those are Ed V's 9.2:1 Pistons for the A65, although with the radius edges and then removing the base gasket it's probably a point either way of that CR.

This is what's going in my racer.

A70 special left, A65 as pictured above on the right



The flat top Pistons I used to run in the A65 were pretty sweet, despite the low compression and poorly seated rings it went well, sounded well with them. I could get a head made with modern design in mind if I had the funds I would go down that route. Anyway I digress.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/10/16 10:20 pm

ii didnt know mung was as colorful as all that myself, dave

where i come from its a generic term for crud, like the stuff that didnt quite get washed off the dishes or that you notice between your toes after a long day
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/11/16 3:55 am

It's quite colourful on urban dictionary. A bit too colourful to post on here eek
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/11/16 7:17 am

Originally Posted By Allan Gill
Originally Posted By kevin
damn, what fantastic piston crowns you have. are they all like that? triumph stayed stuck in the 1930's with the geometrically satisfying hemispheres that squashed into the old grapefruit rinds at TDC. and 37 BTDC timing as a result. BSA and norton were so much ahead.

i had an issue with pockets and the valve margins years ago on a morgo. had the pockets opened up and deepened a bit, been fine ever since.

i can deal with the clearances, but i'm trying to maximize flow at low lift, and a shrouded intake valve isn't the solution to that problem. but at this point i don't care. any valve will work, at this point, so long as it doesn't hit and someone will sell it to me.


Those are Ed V's 9.2:1 Pistons for the A65, although with the radius edges and then removing the base gasket it's probably a point either way of that CR.

This is what's going in my racer.

A70 special left, A65 as pictured above on the right



The flat top Pistons I used to run in the A65 were pretty sweet, despite the low compression and poorly seated rings it went well, sounded well with them. I could get a head made with modern design in mind if I had the funds I would go down that route. Anyway I digress.


Pistons look sweet!! Are the wrist pin locations different between the 2? Looks to me that the A70 piston has a higher pin location than the A65 one.
Posted By: GS DAVE

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/11/16 7:39 am

I'm glad we got that cleared up, trying to stop the flashbacks tired
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/11/16 4:51 pm

Yeah the wrist pin on the A70 (left) is a good half inch closer to the crown. I actually fitted this piston to the A65, dropped the barrel on and measured how low down the bore it was ( or rather how much longer the rod needed to be) it measured 13mm, half inch being just under 0.020" different. I state the difference because I found it cheaper to buy A10 rods, and then I can look at compression differences then as opposed to buying 13mm longer rods and having to add extra gaskets if things get too tight.

But I'm working around 11/12:1 CR with that A70 piston. The long rod ( in theory) will bring less stress/piston rock at sustained high speed than standard. Also thinking that the long rod B50 motors all bring good results.

Against good advice I am having the crank lightened/knife edged and polished, which will reduce inertia, but I'm hoping that with good gear ratio choices, choice of cam and head modifications (which I'm doing on my road bike) will provide the torque required to over come the inertia issue.

I am not aiming for classification stipulation, but to build a bike as I want to and what ever class it ends up in is just that, and I'll just compete against my own times. (Secretly hoping I can beat some of my vintage friends/rivals/idols) but I like to think that everyone else has that same agenda.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/14/16 6:42 pm

an odd situation. i wonder if anyone here has encountered it?

this is a 1970 motor, matching case halves:



all the case screws on the right side (gearbox out and timing cover) are pozidrive 1/4-20.

the similar size threaded holes on the primary are a different thread-- the 1/4-20 screws go in a quarter of an inch and tighten up. i don't know whether i have any of the original primary screws-- have to check the bag.

but it looks as if on assembly day the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing. unless the right size has been re-tapped?
Posted By: NickL

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/14/16 8:37 pm

Those numbers stamped on the cases do not mean they are a 'matched' pair. they are stamped for sizing/fitting the crank and it's shims. You've probably just got 1 earlier and 1 later cases halves. Just drill and helicoil the bsf ones to unc.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/14/16 9:52 pm

i didn't know that. i'd always thought that they picked case halves randomly off the table, marked them to stay together, and then machined them to match. didn't know that they chose for sizing in advance. not to worry anyway. i'm running a dry primary, so all i'm planning at this point to hold a cover over the belt are the two front studs with the acorn nuts, and the two larger back screws. the rest will likely stay unmodified.

here's another-- the temportary donor head had various alignment problems. one of them was that the pad on the bottom to accommodate the head gasket was clearly defined on one side and faded into the lower fin surface on the other.





the odd-looking lower gasket pad was parallel to the rocker box mating surface on top. i'm guessing that there was some core shift during casting, corrected by later factory machining? i had a minimal cut taken off the bottom of the head--0.006-inches-- to bring the wings into line with the middle where the center was bowed up from a PRT screw-up somewhere in the past. we took off metal in three steps, just to get down to the center surface.



there was also an intake valve seat so off that the machinist had quite a bit of difficulty getting the valve lined up correctly.

i know about future PRT problems, not anxious at this point.

beehives:

Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/15/16 7:22 am

That will work just dandy....For short duration racing like LSR oil has less time to leak you'll have more leeway to fidget with the tube seals grin
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/15/16 11:40 am

in my earlier bodger days i would just dab silicone seal outside the pushrod tube base to take care of leaks. worked as well as careful measure-and-fitting, and lots quicker.

i was intending to stay with stock valve sizes for this head, but people were out of stock on the kibblewhite standards, so i had a pair of 1.660 OS intakes put in. it actually turned out to be better, because the guy doing my valve seats had some more leeway in getting things straight. took a 40, 45, and 60-degree cut, so we may get some flow improvement in there.

he's a real interesting man. started out in the triumph dealership as a kid, assembling bikes out of the crate. now he works out of a two-car garage equipped with a cabinet washer, block and head grinder, boring bar, valve seat cutter (in the picture), rod equipment, a sizeable bridgeport, and a near state-of-the-art sunnen cylinder hone. he can do everything except line boring and line honing, and builds everything from 3-HP vintage lawnmowers to 800-HP mud trucks. i never know what will be in there when i go by-- three cylinder jet ski blocks or gravely flathead tractor engines.

Posted By: RPM

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/15/16 12:17 pm

Originally Posted By NickL
Those numbers stamped on the cases do not mean they are a 'matched' pair. they are stamped for sizing/fitting the crank and it's shims. You've probably just got 1 earlier and 1 later cases halves. Just drill and helicoil the bsf ones to unc.



Triumph never used shims on the crankshaft. You are thinking of BSA that did stamp the shim information on the cases.

The numbers were stamped on the crankcases when they were machined as matched set. They would have never built a bike with SAE on one side and CEI on the other. Look closer at the screws.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/15/16 2:34 pm

i found the answer. the curse of the DPO has struck again.

the primary cover screw holes in the crankcase are metric-- M6.1-20. only the little ones-- the two large screw holes to the rear are still 5/16-24. dunno whether he tapped them or just forced in some odd screws he happened to have around.
Posted By: John Healy

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/15/16 3:15 pm

Kevin
I would cc the chambers on that head! I have seen a lot of heads where the dpo (or his dm (dumb mechanic)) thought he would fix a bent head by machining (belt sanding, etc.) but not one that looked as bad as that head.

Now you are looking for power? If so you MUST pay attention to the crush on the push rod tubes. This especially because someone had taken more material from the head making the original crush problem even worse. Think about what bending the head will do to your valve job. Do you think the valves will seal after the valve seat is distorted? The amount of aluminum in a Triumph head is minimal. Compared to a Norton they are a light weight. You discover this when you actually straighten the head, instead of running it by machining it. With a simple set-up you can straighten the head with the 4 inside head bolts and a 6" wrench. Lacking a special tool you can use an old cylinder. They bend like butter and the valve seats and guide support are no exception.

I have long been fond of high compression (its a cheap way to get some torque). To this end I run as little push rod crush as possible allowing all of the head bolt pressure available to clamp the head gasket instead of being absorbed by trying to crush the push rod tube seals. This is especially important to those using a big bore (750) cylinder on a 650. There is frightfully little gasket around the 5/16" center head bolt. It needs all of the clamping you can get.

And no, using more head bolt torque than recommended is not a cure. With the head being so light all this does is to almost guarantee you will distort the valve guide or seat.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/15/16 7:30 pm

john, i do understand the combustion chamber issue and have been looking at this head with more and more disappointment. obviously if the casting was that far misaligned the chambers are going to be unequal, whether it started that way or ended up that way in the hands of an unskilled hot-rodder. but i hesitate to spend much more time on this one. it was (and still is) intended for a low-level grocery-getter build, and i only stuck it on this motor because the real head is in chattanooga with leo goff.

i will not ignore PRT crush, i just don't worry about it because i know how to do it correctly, and i'll set up the motor with 40 or so thousandths in there. but i'm really interested in this:

Quote:
With a simple set-up you can straighten the head with the 4 inside head bolts and a 6" wrench. Lacking a special tool you can use an old cylinder. They bend like butter and the valve seats and guide support are no exception.


i think i understand how to do this, and will give it a try next time this comes up
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/21/16 9:30 pm

grabbed a camera at a few moments putting the top end together



i love ^^this P-80, but it's hellishly expensive. learned about it hereon this forum. anyway, these are the pushrod tubes. what with the history of head skimming and the tappet blocks raised some 0.020, there was 0.069 inches of space between the top of the 0.039 head gasket and the bottom of the head, even with the little 0.100 square PRT seals. nothing smaller. but i tried a new technique of folding the seals around a socket and gently working them on the grinder, and carefully turned them down to about 0.070 each. ended up with 0.045-inches of crush on the tubes. we'll see how it works out. i'm not sure the square seals fill out the wedding bands completely, but this is a zero-pressure zone and i'm not hesitant to goop it with silicone from the outside if necessary.

i'm trying out copper gaskets under the rocker boxes. base gasket is copper as well. needed one there to get enough piston to valve clearance.



and mushroom tappet adjusters with alloy nuts. i use these in my old street T120, and they've eliminated the tappet adjuster screws digging into the end of the valve stems.



one thing i'm leaving out are the hardened spacers on the rocker shafts. i have these in my T120, too, but i don't believe in them anymore.



and of course, once the head was on i discovered two bolt holes with stripped threads, so had to helicoil them quickly before i could move on.



and the end result is finally starting to look like a motor


Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/22/16 2:38 am

Nice mag case, is that for a Joe hunt?
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/22/16 5:21 am

no, its an old ARD ive had for a while. never run it yet. it takes a fairbanks-morse mag unit.

i have a twin-plug pazon i was planning on using, but this first head is single-plugged. the nice thing about the ARD is that its totally self-contained. rhe bad thing is that there is no advance, and no timing adjustment aside from removing the pulley and repositionibg it
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/22/16 9:10 am

For LSR work, I would think that the lack of an advance is not a bad thing.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/22/16 10:45 am

Originally Posted By Allan Gill
For LSR work, I would think that the lack of an advance is not a bad thing.


That's if Kevin can start it without getting his knee kicked back into the clip on bars... grin
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/22/16 2:12 pm

im not as tough as i once was.

if it breaks my leg i may have to buy a honda
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/22/16 6:47 pm

Originally Posted By kevin
im not as tough as i once was.

if it breaks my leg i may have to buy a honda


Or invest in a roller starter! Engine's looking good. Will it be ready for the June meet?
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/23/16 7:32 am

heavens, i dont know.

there's enough time as long as i dont discover something.

the pistons, head, and valves all coexisted correctly on the bench. hope they stay that way
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/26/16 11:20 pm

cranking on two days off:

the gearbox. i can never index these correctly the first five times.



part of the reason is that i forget to do the primary so i have something to turn against. this is bob newbie's 40mm belt:





some of these apparently go in too tight because of triumph's casual regard for consistent center-to-center distances between shafts. this set of cases worked out fine.

what didn't work out was the right-hand breather spigot on the front of the cases and the ARD magneto. i had to take out the one on the right to make room for the fairbanks-morse unit. i'll plug it and consider an additional breather at the back of the rear pushrod tube. probably don't need it, as there are also small 1/4-inch breathers on both rocker boxes. they'll help equalize pressures, but won't accomodate the actual pulsing from the pistons. the ARD is temporary anyway.



so here we are. this is the mock-up motor-- the other one is on the bench at the moment. i've got a functioning brake on the front now, not necessary for the MPG class but useful for tuning on a short (Short) runway.



this tank is pretty, but way too big-- i can't tuck down to the side easily and have to just sit my chin on top of it. but all i need for the rules is five litres, and i can do that with two 4-inch tube tanks set below the backbone, a short one on the left, and a long one on the right. doing it that way will let me bend down to the left below the triple clamps and get my ass out of the wind. but i don't have time for them now, so they'll go in on the Mark ii version.

and for absolutely no relevant reason here is my lovely wife talking to her goats:





she's famous around here, because the goats are always loose, staring down the oil field semis.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/01/16 7:52 pm

there is no time left before the wilmington event on 18 19 june

i have the chassis done on my machine, the motor is ready and installed.

i'm doing last minute stuff that causes 90 percent of the distress-- controls, wheels and tires, instruments, ignition, leaks, and on and on . . .

but it seems like it's a go:



haven't started it, as i've been waiting for a contact breaker seal from rabers to put in the ARD cover. but maybe tomorrow.

i'm using quick-and-dirty exhausts, carbs, and ignition. not what i planned, but what was possible in the time available.

this is all problematic anyway, as the future of the ECTA in ohio is up in the air-- google inc is negotiating a deal for the airstrip, and so the june even may be the last one here. no idea whether september will be a go, so i'm cranking on having something ready to race in two weeks.

maybe . . .
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/02/16 9:44 pm

Good luck Kevin. The Google thing is news to me, I did hear that Amazon is planning to use Wilmington as a distribution hub causing the uncertainty of the future ECTA races there. Hopefully we won't have relocate again but if we do hoping the track will be as good !
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/03/16 7:42 pm

my mistake, chris - - -

i meant amazon, not google. i get all these immense dotcom organizations mixed up. i used to make my living writing computer manuals in silicon valley, but i bailed just before the internet hit, thank heavens.

anyway, all that's left are the easies:

-- chainguard (stolen from the street bike, temporarily)
-- carbs and pipes (ditto . . .)
-- speedo (i'm using a $16 wireless bicycle unit, lol-- no battery or electrical system on the bike, so the GPS tach is set aside for the moment)
-- rear brake pedal stop
-- lanyard kill switch. this is actually an issue, as the magneto is killed by completing a circuit to ground, rather than opening a circuit from the battery. i'll cobble up something using one of those ancient lucas 6CA point sets i've kept for years without any good reason.

there's zero clearance between stock T120 pipes and the magneto, especially with the O2 sensor bung i installed in exactly the wrong place:



i can work around it for now, though. on the plus side, the belt drive fits behind the stock primary cover, so long as i leave the alternator out. but i was planning on that anyway.






Posted By: konon

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/04/16 8:35 am

Really coming together Kevin, nice work.
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/04/16 9:03 pm

Looking Good!
Posted By: old mule

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/08/16 8:48 pm

Nice alert looking white ass. I see it is haltered up- do you ride it?
I have five, ride one downtown to the bar once in a while because of their low carbon hoofprint, and here in Texas there is no such law as DDUI.
Posted By: triton thrasher

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/09/16 2:37 am

Originally Posted By old mule
Nice alert looking white ass. I see it is haltered up- do you ride it?
I have five, ride one downtown to the bar once in a while because of their low carbon hoofprint, and here in Texas there is no such law as DDUI.


I just came back from Malaga, in southern Spain. They still seem to be producing and using mules there, to haul tourists, newlyweds, etc., around in carriages.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/09/16 6:04 am

this particular donkey is broke to both ride and drive, and my lovely wife paid $20 for him to do just that. then she discovered thai he was lame, and so now he's mostly an animated lawn ornament . . .

actually, he's handy for keeping the coyotes away from the goats and chickens, although the cats venture outside his home range and suffer for their audacity.

around here you can't use animal traction to get home from the bar-- the cops will still bust you. plus, if you're passed out the horse will get you home but won't slow down for the stop signs (stops signs are beyond horse understanding). so it's not safe either.

triton, out here the amish and mennonites use horses for both field work and highway transportation, so buggies, wagons, and horse-drawn farm equipment are all over the roads.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/10/16 7:50 pm

damn i hate these 14-hour workdays. at least they aren't 17 hours anymore. have only an hour or so at a time to do anything

anyway, set the timing at 36 BTDC or so



i imagine it'll need to be retarded more than this with the higher compression ratio, but i had to start somewhere. i was curious whether the old 11:1 TT bonnevilles ever had any special timing settings, but it wasn't in the books i looked through.

been a long time since i had to static-time a motorcycle from scratch. there's a mark on the newby pulley, but it seems to be around 40 or 44 BTDC or so, so i went back to first principles. and of course, i forgot to scratch a TDC mark on the pulley, so i'll have to do this again.



used a very, very thin piece of mylar from a candy wrapper, clamped in an alligator clip for a weight . . . put it between the points and turned the motor with the rear wheel. when the mylar fell out at 36, i called it timed. i think it ended up closer to 38, but the actual number is unimportant. i have a stopwatch, and i hope i'll have enough time to use it.

finished the lanyard kill switch, too



cut a piece of plastic cut from a motor oil jug, hammered in a grommet and clamped between an old set of points.



pull out the plastic (hooked to a glove), and the points ground the magneto



it's been so long since i messed with points i had to sort through my junk boxes to get enough of the little insulators to make it work, trying to remember how they went together.

but it's installed, it's simple, and it clearly works. so i hope the safety people will call it okay



i'll put on a plate for the oil pressure gauge tomorrow and buy some 110 gasoline. then as soon as i can i'll see if it runs.



dunno where i'll run in the rings. maybe right out here on the blacktop, if traffic is light.

Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/11/16 12:12 pm

Looks like record braking speed just sitting there..36 degrees should be Ok with the faster burning race fuel.....You are going to install a guard over the open belt drive ?
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/11/16 1:02 pm

it'll be slow. i'll have enough time to seat the rings, but nothing for real tuning. the 34mm mikunis are taken directly off my old morgo, so they'll not be perfect yet. i'll have the keihins on it later.


the belt drive fits behind the standard cover with no modifications except leaving off the caps and timing door, if the safety people will let me. this newby drive is almost the same width as a chain and rotor. the trapdoor behind the clutch is off for cooling.

i don't have a cover for the magneto belt drive, tho. the chopper guy i bought it from liked to watch the little pulleys turn and didnt keep it. i'll screw a piece of strap across it.
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/12/16 6:48 am

Looking good Kevin. Good luck next weekend!
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/12/16 8:16 am

i need the luck earlier than that. still havent had a moment to start it. two days off starting tomorrow though
Posted By: Triless

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/13/16 8:19 am

Kevin, you and Tony are very inspirational to this bumbling drongo ! Good on you.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/13/16 1:03 pm

Originally Posted By Triless
Kevin, you and Tony are very inspirational to this bumbling drongo ! Good on you.


I have this print on the wall in my study for inspiration...Glenn Curtiss knew how to get the job done with very basic equipment...



The Curtiss Museum is 90 miles from me, I took this photo of the accurate replica there. Look at the U joint, open bevel drive and that rear brake.. My signature expresses my feelings on all of this...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/13/16 1:10 pm

Originally Posted By Triless
Kevin, you and Tony are very inspirational to this bumbling drongo ! Good on you.


tony already has street cred at this level and has raised the bar significantly. rememember he went from 118 to 128 with that machine, mostly by paying attention to intake and exhaust tuning and training his rider.

i know absolutely nothing about what i'm supposed to be doing here. but the oil pressure gauge goes on after lunch and i'll see whether it makes noises by itself.

Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/13/16 1:16 pm

Mr Roberts, we are explorers.....to boldly go where no man has gone before bigt
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/13/16 6:44 pm

it runs.

my foot still hurts-- 11.75 to 1 and 36 BTDC fixed advance are not the appropriate recipe for tranquil kickstarts.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/13/16 7:41 pm

Text me a sound video or it didn't happen grin
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/13/16 10:16 pm

phooey on you


https://youtu.be/JJPDBQcA0oA
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/13/16 10:57 pm

here at the end, i did some stuff that is really ugly, just to get the machine to the starting line.



^^^ no tachometer on the bike. i'm using a bicycle speedometer that will give me shift points based on miles per hour. easy and cheap.

it goes with the only other instrument on the machine, a triples-rule oil pressure gauge, up on a plate on the top triple tree:



i left room for a light or something when i get around to a real ignition system.

there are breathers everywhere, as the belt drive means i can't run pressure pulses through the main bearing into the primary case. no reed valves on it so far, just open-ended tubes. these are the ones on the rocker boxes-- there's another on the crankcase, a bigger one.





had a glitch of stupidity that could have been bad-- the original crankshaft has a british threaded stud in it to which the rotor fixing nut attaches.



the hole in my RoDy crank was SAE 7/16-20 TPI, a standard UNF thread. when i was timing the motor, i didn't have a stud in 7/16-20 to attach the timing disc to. so i ran a 7/16-20 TPI die down the shank of a threaded rod (7/16-14) to let me attach the disc to the crank.

i did not smooth over the very sharp edges that resulted, and the rod acted like a tap and cut away enough of the internal 20 TPI threads in the (very expensive) crank, so that it would no longer take the 30 foot pounds, and started to pull out the weakened threads at 20 foot pounds.

not good, at all.

so to solve the problem, i went and got a grade-8 7/16-20 bolt three inches long, cut off the head, and destroyed a threading die making it into a stud 7/16-20 on both ends. ran it into the end of the crank with permatex 27100 stud and bearing mount (like red loctite 271), and fixed the problem permanently. so long as i never need to pull that stud, i'm okay. after 24 hours, the cemented-in stud took 30 foot pounds on the nut with no difficulty.

and there's enough rod left to attach a timing disc to the end and still close up the primary with the standard cover.



i need to put the clutch actuating rod in a grinder and take off a quarter0-inch or so, because the adjuster screw sticks out far enouygh that i can't put the little cover plug back in without it rubbing. but that's just cosmetics.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/13/16 11:11 pm

i left the whole gear shift lever in place-- it makes a useful handle to find neutral with:



this really ugly piece of aluminum is there to keep the carburetors from ingesting rocks, since there isn't a rear fender. plus, since the aluminum seat doesn't cover the whole top of the frame loop, it will allow me to tell the inspectors that my critical body parts are not in danger from disintegrating tires or chains. or much, anyway.



yet another ugly piece is this brake lever stop. i have ideas for a more elegant one later, but for the moment, this works:



off to the airstrip tomorrow to seat the rings and get some time on the motr. maybe even mess with the jetting.

and there it is:



complete with some recent inspiration:

Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/14/16 7:28 am

Looks good to me...The full advance gives a nice choppy idle.. and can improve low speed response if nothing else..
Posted By: pushrod tom

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/14/16 7:32 am

Looks good Kevin. Give em heck out there. But.........not too much. Heh!
I'm in Carmichels, Pa. This week. PRT
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/14/16 8:05 am

Kevin, Glad you got her running! Kick starting high compression is great isnt it. Good luck this weekend and be sure to update us on how well you do.

Chris
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/14/16 1:53 pm

screwed!

maybe . . . taking an hour break right now, as this machine is undoubtably the most uncomfortable and physically tiring motorcycle i have ever ridden.

took it to the airstrip. had some difficulties starting an unfamiliar configuration. still don't know exactly what sort of choke, throttle, and piston position it likes. but once it starts, it runs well-- poor bottom end, then comes onto the cam at about three-quarter rpm range and accelerates very well. don't know how well, exactly, as there isn't any tach, and my bicycle speedometer turns out to be unable to register a speed higher than 67.7 mph.

lol.

anyway, existing mains seem okay-- no change in power rolling the throttle back and forth at high load on the main jets, and th eplugs are chocolate brown on the leaded 110 i'm burning.

but there's an oiling problem. the machine began puking oil out the main breather tube, and dribbling from the pushrod tubes about 4 miles into the ring break in, back and forth on the runway. poured out enough to soak the rear tire . . .

looked at the breather, and sure enbough, oil was migrating up and out the clear hose-- easy to see:

[video:youtube]https://youtu.be/xeKWcri8XLk[/video]

thought at first it was a breather problem, which shouldn't have been an issue, as i didn't re-invent any wheels on this breather. no oil on the dry primary, thank heavens.

so i said, maybe the crankcase oil level is too high, and it's wet sumping and blowing the excess out the breather? so i opened up the sump drain to measure just how much with my handy little 16-ounce measuring cup.

my problem is obvious:



so i'm headed back to the shop to pull the timing cover and look at the check balls on the brand new morgo oil pump. while i'm there. i'll bypass the oil filter on the return line, on the off chance that a restriction there might inhibit pickup from the sump. shouldn't, logically, because the orifices are plenty big, and the pump moves the scavenged oil under pressure.

if i can fix it this evening, i'm in business. otherwise, no. no time left for creativity.
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/14/16 2:21 pm

You have several breather pipes fitted, do any of them have PCV Valves fitted? If so, take them off. If should have blown that oil through the breather pipe if nothing else.

Or your rockers are over oiling and not much is returning to the tank. Building a steady increase of oil in the sump and the pump can't keep up.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/14/16 5:16 pm

Kevin, my 650 LSR Triumph has two breather hoses, no one way valves...One 3/8 off the front like yours and goes up and juts out a hole in the steering neck area..The other breather originates at the top rear of the timing cover, the hose goes up by the carbs and back down near the kick starter...Both hoses are routed to dump oil overboard away from the machine .... However... not one drop of oil has come out of either hose, they are dry inside...
Obviously your engine has a problem..Shorten the breather hoses like mine ...Might make a difference..
You will solve it.. The racing gods are testing you... grin
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/14/16 8:19 pm

no check valves in the breathers at all, just open tubes.

it appeared to be a piece of something inside the scavenge side of the oil pump holding up the check ball-- no return at all to the oil tank at the return line under the motor. the crankcase was simply filling, although there was good return to the oil tank earlier. i took the pump out and the scavenge plunger didn't seem to hold vacuum, although the feed side was fine. took it apart and rinsed the insides in solvent, and put it back. now the motor happily dumps oil on the floor from the disconnected return pipe when i kick it, so that problem is apparently solved.

however, i had to take the ignition off to get at the oil pump, and now i can't get the magneto to spark. i've re-timed it from scratch, disconnected the kill switches completely, zilcho. no spark at the plugs, no kickback, nothing.

one thing after another. i'll sleep on it and see if my subconscious can work something out before morning.
Posted By: RPM

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/14/16 8:40 pm

Clean the points in the mag . Very easy to get something between the contacts.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/14/16 10:09 pm

well, i have the answer, but it's not a good one.

the no-spark turned out to be fouled plugs. for some reason the plugs worked fine at the airstrip, right up to when i shut the motor off. but they were too fouled to work after i got the bike off the trailer back at the house. new plugs started kicking back at me right away.

started up and ran fine, then started puking oil out the back again. at higher rpms it would rise up into the breather hose:

[video:youtube]https://youtu.be/EsHFPHvJsLY[/video]

i pulled the drain plug out of the bottom again, and found the pickup tube had come loose and was sitting inside the screen:



so that's the answer. whether or not the oil pump was slow, the reason for the high oil level in the crankcase was because the tube was loosening and eventually fell out. there was good return to the tank after the oil was high enough to reach the drillway the tube fell out of.

so it's time to split the cases and see why the tube fell out, and how hard it will be to put it back in.

wilmington is out, unfortunately. no time for this before friday.
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/15/16 3:13 am

The motor sounds a real beaut' shame you have to pull it down.
Posted By: Triless

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/15/16 3:53 am

Yes, the engine does sound good. And, believe me, I know about this sort of frustration after all that work. BUT, although your emotions will be running high now, this drama is not catastrophic. Its an unseen thing, and really, the worst part is the time to fix it! Step back, have a whiskey or three, and the next day things will look less bad.
You'll sort it, Kevin, of that I have no doubt .
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/15/16 6:05 am

You can press it back in through the drain hole..Lean the machine over and have a look with a bright light...If there's no evidence of a case problem..clean it up ,Loctite, press it back in and go racing...

Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/15/16 10:21 am

we'll see

i just sucked out the oil puddle in there with a mity vac, sprayed it clean with brake cleaner, and tapped the tube back in.

light press fit, but the blue loctite may do the trick.

didnt realize i could reach it from the outside
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/15/16 10:55 am

If available locally get the green sleeve retainer Loctite...Just a small speed bump in your journey...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/15/16 4:00 pm

well, that seems to have worked





the motor runs, returns oil to the tank in a steady stream, and nothing comes burbling up the breather tubes.

more little stuff before i can leave-- parts that rub and so on.
Posted By: koncretekid

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/15/16 5:35 pm

Good luck with your runs, Kevin. You deserve that after all the work you've put into it. Love those "ugly" quick fixes, as I've been there and done that - - sometimes between races!
Tom
Posted By: konon

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/16/16 6:29 am

Hope your rewarded for all the hard work. Good luck Kevin.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/16/16 1:24 pm

just getting to run it at all is the reward. wilmington is only a mile to the lights, but to be able to open up the throttle on a tuned machine and not back it off is an experience that is priceless.

where i live is great mid-range motorcycle country-- curving roads, up and downhill stretches, good pavement. great for plonking along or scraping, either one. but there isn't anywhere you can take it up to the top of the cam and hold it there, without risking blind hills, curves, gravel kicked into the groove, cows, goats, or horse-drawn vehicles.

looking down a clean and empty runway almost two miles long and opening up the motor is a fantastic experience. like everything wonderful and new that you try, you ask yourself, why didn't i start this years ago?

so we'll see.

here's chris on his A10 last year doing just that:

https://youtu.be/fAg5-6e8l0Y
Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/16/16 5:28 pm

Originally Posted By kevin roberts
just getting to run it at all is the reward.
looking down a clean and empty runway almost two miles long and opening up the motor is a fantastic experience.


I'm really looking forward to seeing it run. You'll have to make a trip to Bonneville. Staring down three miles of salt is something you won't forget.

https://youtu.be/r5EBHbk3Ito
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/16/16 6:40 pm

tell me about that starter motor, bill.

i've destroyed a pair of shoes already on this mother.

not to mention my instep.
Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/16/16 8:25 pm

Originally Posted By kevin roberts
tell me about that starter motor, bill.

i've destroyed a pair of shoes already on this mother.

not to mention my instep.


I got to the point where my knees wouldn't allow me to kick the Weslake in the Norton. 14:1 and 36 deg. fixed advance and no compression release was too much. When I built the sidecar there was no way you could kick it. So I came up with the starter. Its an internal gear reduction unit from a Dodge pick up. Its been so long I can't remember the number but it turns clockwise as you face it. I got it from NAPA. I used a 1 1/8" socket because I had one laying around. The hand hold is, again, a piece of 3/4" sq. tubing I had to hand. And a piece of sheet metal. I don't like complicated solutions so I simply welded the socket to the gear on the starter. No problems.

As you know looking at the crankshaft it turns counter clockwise so unless you have a left hand thread nut on the crank you can't use it for starting, The Weslake is right hand thread. My solution was to weld a bolt head to a piece of sheet metal and bolt it to the sprocket. The aluminum spacer is to clear the crankshaft nut. Worked a treat. In fact it worked to well I made the same set up for the Norton.

[IMG]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/11/img1036h.jpg[/IG]





Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/16/16 8:39 pm

hmmm.

i have an ordinary right-threaded nut holding the primary drive onto the crankshaft stud, but i also ditched the alternator and am using the huge hex-shaped rotor core around it as a spacer. it's clamped tightly to the crank using the stock 1/8-inch keyway.

i'm wondering whether that keyway is tough enough to hold up against a starter motor applied to the hex-shaped rotor core using a big socket.

if it can, then the solution is obvious: put a big socket on a starter motor somehow and just use that.

i could use a wheel-drive roller, but that's a lot of paraphernalia. i haven't progressed to the stage yet of having a reliable pit crew.
Posted By: noisy norton

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/16/16 11:45 pm

The sprocket carrier on the Weslake fits on the crank on a taper and a 1/8" keyway, The carrier has spines that the sprocket "floats" on. I don't know why the sprocket is allowed to float. The only reason I can come up with is speedway frames flex a lot and the floating sprocket is allowed to move and keep the chain aligned.

I made spacers to keep the sprocket in line and eliminated the float.

I haven't had any problems with shearing the key. I don't think you will either.

As I said I don't like complicated solutions. On the starter I removerd the small gear which is retained by a simple hog ring. I removed the gear and welded the socket to it. The socket is 3/8" drive and the shaft is 3/8". The shaft was long enough to be able to be able to refit the hog ring. I was dubious but it has worked without a hitch.

If you are running a lot of compression get a starter with an internal gear reduction. I tried a non reduction starter and it wouldn't crank the Weslake. But I know as soon as you do it you'll happier than a pig in mud.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/18/16 11:17 pm

got in one complete run, 110 mph taking it slow up to top end. the bike is dead stable, and the seating position gives excellent control. i'm going to have to separate the footpegs from the kickstarter a bit better, as the fixed advance requires a healthy stroke to get it moving.

on the second run i opened it up just off the line and the front wheel came up. on the 2-3 shift the clutch lever rotated under my hand and i missed the shift. twisted it back and lugged it back to the power band and missed the second shift too. then the bike went dead at 60 or 70 mph and i coasted in.

turned out the bakelite rotor in the magneto had sheared the little nubbin inside that locates it on the magneto armature, so no spark.

this old ARD has a american agricultural magneto, a fairbanks-morse, so i tried all four of the farm equipment companies in wilmington. no go, as they were all closed for the weekend by the time i found the rotor problem.

so it's back to the drawing board on this for september. by that time i'll have the carbs dialed, possibly a better cylinder head, and very likely a better ignition.

i learned a lot about starting a high compression motor with fixed spark advance, too, or mostly my right leg learned. if i keep it this way i'll get so much extra muscle in my right leg i won't be able to walk a straight line with my eyes closed.
Posted By: koncretekid

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/19/16 7:07 am

"110 mph taking it slow up to top end" is a pretty good start! I know I was happy just to get to the other end on my first run.
Tom
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/19/16 4:27 pm

here's the inside of the rotor



the locating lug snapped off and the rotor free-wheeled. joe hunt sells a single-fire rotor like this, so i'll call them tomorrow and see whether there is an interchange.

plugs were oily during the dropped-sump-pickup-tube phase, but these new plugs ran clean. the insulator base is somewhat sooty. the side electrode changes color halfway down to the threaded portion or a little more.. haven't yet run this bike with a stopwatch.











this is with Cam-2 leaded premium, 110 pump gasoline. i bought 4 cans of C-12 while i was there, and then the VP guy ran out and asked to buy one back from me while i was leaving. i'll be using the race gas mostly from now on, mostly because of it's consistency. i have no idea how often the underground tank of cam-2 gets re-filled.
Posted By: RPM

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/19/16 8:37 pm

That rotor is a Lucas part that ARD modified to work in a Fairbank Morris Mag. I seem to remember it is a 500 Triumph rotor off a early 60's distributor. The metal ear on the rotor is turned down to make it fit the cap.
They did this to make it single fire. If you look the part this fits to it has been added to the mag. Look close there may be a Lucas part number on the metal part of the rotor.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/19/16 9:21 pm

shoot, i'll do that. the one i have looks like it was hand-fitted with a file to fit the coil cover.

i have no info on the mag itself-- no plate on it-- and looking at the various images on the net identifies it just as an FM single-fire. i'm headed to the various farm equipment dealers here tomorrow to see what they have.

i may spring for an electronic unit eventually, but since i have a pazon dual-plug unit for this bike already, i'd rather not spend US$400 for one that i'll just be taking off.

but if september starts getting closer with no head that's what i'll do.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/20/16 7:56 am

That ARD will bring a small fortune on Ebay....I like magnetos because they require no battery like a total loss electrical system...Alp goes stupid fast with a magneto,brand new Morris...But an old mag may just be a breakdown waiting to happen..?
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/20/16 10:34 am

Kevin,

Glad you were able to get one complete run in and 110mph is good for the first time out basically untested. Are going switch to an EI setup?

I'm thinking about entering for the Sept. meet as this may be the last one, Did Tonya mention anythin about the future of the Ohio Mile?

That video you posted of my A10 was the last time I ran it, nothing like the sound of open megaphones running WOT!
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/20/16 12:41 pm

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
That ARD will bring a small fortune on Ebay....I like magnetos because they require no battery like a total loss electrical system...Alp goes stupid fast with a magneto,brand new Morris...But an old mag may just be a breakdown waiting to happen..?


they go for around $1500 on eBay, as is. this one was rebuilt with all new guts, but the rotor may have been a weak spot-- it was hand-filed to fit this magneto:



see the directional arrow that's only half there?

anyway, i just got off the telephone with joe hunt magnetos, and they have the correct parts for it. so i have two new (correct) rotors coming, along with spare points and a couple of gaskets.

this thing performed flawlessly once i got the motor running, which is mostly a function of carb tuning and me learning its idiosyncracies. the motor would light up only with the enricheners on full, no matter how warm the bike was, so the idle circuit is probably lean.

i really like the way the machine has no electrical system also. nothing to go wrong but the mag. but optimizing the timing is a bear. the stock setup has two little set screws in the two-piece lower pulley wheel that let you adjust the timing by moving only the toothed portion of the pulley wheel, but they've long been loctited permanently into position by the DPO. so until i take it to the machine shop i'm stuck breaking the taper to change the timing, and that's really crude.



Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/20/16 12:53 pm

Originally Posted By Blown Income
Kevin,

Glad you were able to get one complete run in and 110mph is good for the first time out basically untested. Are going switch to an EI setup?

I'm thinking about entering for the Sept. meet as this may be the last one, Did Tonya mention anythin about the future of the Ohio Mile?

That video you posted of my A10 was the last time I ran it, nothing like the sound of open megaphones running WOT!


not only untested, but absolutely not optimized-- i guessed at an appropriate ignition timing and the carbs were taken off my morgo, unchanged. they did 117 on that 750, but who knows what this likes with 649 cc and a stock head? i suspect the head is going to be the limiting factor, because the cams are designed for something else, but maybe not? if i can keep this mag functional, i'll try to keep using it. the big advantage of EI is the low-speed retard and the easier timing changes. but i'd need a battery and a wiring harness. we'll see-- my fancy GPS tach also needs a battery, and a tach would make tuning this thing much easier. i may have enough bits to make one up using a cable-- i'll have to look.



thank heavens i was still faster than the tractor. he did 101 on this, and and that would have been hard to take:



tonya didn't say anything about after september. they only knew about that one the day before this meet, literally. so i don't know. there were slots available for this one-- only 120 people signed up, and the weather was superb-- not all that hot, although the leathers were still killers.

what did you find out about your A65? have you been able to look inside yet?
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/20/16 12:56 pm

Originally Posted By RPM
That rotor is a Lucas part that ARD modified to work in a Fairbank Morris Mag. I seem to remember it is a 500 Triumph rotor off a early 60's distributor. The metal ear on the rotor is turned down to make it fit the cap.
They did this to make it single fire. If you look the part this fits to it has been added to the mag. Look close there may be a Lucas part number on the metal part of the rotor.


no ID on this one-- it was modified by the rebuilder from an unknown (to me) application, just like you said. joe hunt has one they say will fit, but i'll start going through the lucas stuff too, in case they're wrong.

i've been told that allen of ARD only used the FM housing--that the old tractor guts wouldn't turn fast enough for a motorcycle, and so he changed everything out inside.

no records of what he did. he's still around, apparently, and he's supposed to be a really nice guy, but hard to get contact information for.
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/20/16 1:46 pm

"what did you find out about your A65? have you been able to look inside yet?"

Kevin, I have not had a chance yet to dig into the A65 motor but I'm sure its a bad drive side crank bearing with the whinning that changes with the revs. Hoping to have the negine apart in the next week or so (having little kids may change this schedule though or really long nights to get ready for Sept.)

That tractor is really cool though and has to be a great experience at 100+ mph!
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/20/16 5:33 pm

he has boeing 747 tires on the back this year.

he said these things are quite frightening at 60 mph with real tractor tires on it.
Posted By: pushrod tom

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/20/16 6:00 pm

Thanks for the tidbits about this past weekend and 'good show' on your effort. Do you know how the supercharged Triumph and the Norton went? PRT
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/20/16 9:34 pm

rosie and phil's gorgeous supercharged triumph did 145 or 148 on the first run with rosie on board. he had just celebrated his 79th birthday the previous week, and swore to me he wasn't lying. twice. he looks like he's in his 50s, has apparently been going to bonneville for 40 years, i was told . . .

i talked with them later while looking into my magneto in the pits. he had done another run that day and told me the crosswinds at the lights blew him across the track. they decided to shut it down until the following morning, so i don't know what they finally did. this is it from last year:



graham and andy brought back their norton from ontario. the last time they threw a rod on their first run, bent a valve in the fullauto head. this time they came back with a different motor in the bike, an 860 this time. they were taking it easy, and i think they ran 115 the first run without winding the motor up above 7000. it was running well so they were going to creep up on the rpm. this is their machine from april:



they had a hand-held starter on it this time, and a wider primary setup to accommodate the belt drive. i liked the starter a lot. graham has a triumph he's building that he wants to bring in september.

that was it for the brit machinery. no BSAs this time, unit or otherwise, no other turnips. i didn't have as much time to talk with people as i would have liked, as i spent half of saturday looking for mag parts, unsuccessfully.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/21/16 6:09 am

Rosey Lackey runs at Bonneville on that bike and teamed with Sperry ,their "other bike", holds the SCTA record 650 MPG at Bonneville.. 124 mph...
Posted By: pushrod tom

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/21/16 8:26 am

Thanks
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/25/16 9:54 pm

the aftermath:

i appear to have made an interesting rookie mistake in setting up this machine--

my sprocket setup on this bike is 20/43, which i chose because i planned to gear the bike for 125 mph. i assumed a rear tire circumference of 81 inches, a max rpm of 7000, and a stock primary ratio of 29/58. given this, the machine would go a planned 124.9 mph at 7000, if it could pull it.

during construction, i switched to a newby belt drive, with 36/68 teeth, somewhat steeper than stock. i kept the 20/43 sprockets, but when i measured my rear tire, it turned out to be 84.8-inches in circumference.

in all my hurry to get the thing running and out on the course, i didn't run the numbers, and also didn't have time to fit a tach. when i did the one run at wilmington before i spun the magneto rotor, i topped out at 110 mph, and the bike held about 10 seconds at that speed before the lights, topped out, no increase. it was clear to me that i had maxed that configuration, that day.

well, now i HAVE run the numbers, and with the newby belt drive and the real diameter of the avon tire, i now see that i had geared the bike for 138.4 mph at 7000. there was no way it could pull that in its current experimental state of tune, and in fact, with a max speed of 110 mph, it calculates out doing that at 5550 rpm. but as i didn't have tach on it, i couldn't see where i was.

so, several things immediately come to mind:

-- first, if my math is correct, the motor has enough torque to pull 110 mph at 5500. this is good, considering that the head is stock and the carbs and pipes are guesses.

-- second, with lower gearing (such as 20/46 or 19/43), the motor will be geared for 130 or so, at 7000. i think this is attainable.

-- third, i need to put tach on it. without a battery, the speedhut tach has nothing to power it, and in fact, with the magneto i can't run a standard electronic tach anyway. but that's an easy fix.

just swapping the 20-tooth gearbox sprocket for a 19-tooth unit, i can get 126 mph at 6700. and i can put a mechanical tach on it, or if i switch to a battery-coil ignition i can run it off the coil.

but it runs well, and the parts inside didn't collide.

so i'm still thinking.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/26/16 6:09 am

I think you think too much grin Use a small 12 volt rechargeable battery for the Speedhut tach...And it doesn't have a cable so it can be mounted without concern for cable routing...
The Newby is 1.88 primary ratio rather than the 2.0 stock set up..That also affects kick starting a bit...
I'm counting on you keep Triumph in the winners circle ! So get that bike in order for September...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/26/16 8:08 am

lol

i have a shorei for it already. but the ARD wont drive a speedhut without an expensive relay.

i'll rob my old morgo of its boyer and put on a coil. with september possibly the last local meet im not interested in messing around anymore.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/26/16 9:40 am

Originally Posted By kevin roberts
lol
with september possibly the last local meet im not interested in messing around anymore.


Oh yeah, and Maine might become the place to go and it'll get more crowded...
No fears, you're about 4 hours from me and you'll pass by on your way to Maine...travel together, our two minds together should at least equal a half wit...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/26/16 10:22 am

sounds like a plan

all i need now is more money
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/27/16 7:06 pm

well, two new rotors, two sets of points, and two new cover gaskets arrived from joe hunt magnetos in california.

in about two minutes i had a new rotor on the mag:

[video:youtube]http://youtu.be/Mt_EPX5F4EQ[/video]

th erotor was fifteen bucks, and appeared identical to the one i took off (except not busted), filed to fit and everything.

all that for-want-of-a-horshoe-nail stuff notwithstanding, if i'd had the spare parts with me at wilmington, like i should have done, i'd have been back on the course in an hour.

still, now i am better educated.

while the bike was up on the lift, i modified the shift lever position. i had some trouble with the kickstart lever being too close to the shifter, and my heel would hit it during kickstarting. possible solutions included lengthening the swingarm so i could move the peg back (i'm already as close to the rear axle as the rules allow), using a handheld starter (maybe will do anyway) or changing the position of the lever.

couldn't move the lever any farther back without being unable to hook my foot under it, so i swung it up to make it into a heel-operated control. these tarzocchi rear sets were expensive, but worth every penny, because they can be set up in any position i want, with no fuss, all in a few minutes.



this is an an upshift-only configuration, since i press with my heel, and can't un-press. to downshift i have to reach down and click the front lever by hand. but if i have to downshift during a run, i've botched it already, so this is really not a hardship.

we'll see. dunno how it will work until i get it to the airstrip.
Posted By: Andy Higham

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/28/16 2:10 am

Get a Scitsu tacho, they have a built in rechargable battery and pick up the signal via a wire taped to HT lead. Under 150.00
Here
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/28/16 7:01 am

I have this brand on my bike but the model which hard wires to the battery.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/28/16 7:30 am

Speedhut tach is about $125 and just needs a small 12 volt battery,a few more bucks. It also has a 8000 rpm scale so it's easier to read at speed than a 12K scale...And made in USA grin..
I believe some use inexpensive inductive pick up digital tachometers used for tuning small engines...
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/28/16 8:50 am

HB, you can get the Scitsu tach with a 8k face. The plus with this tach is that the option of having the battery contained in the tach itself eliminating the need for an external heavy battery on the bike. They are of the inductive type pickup for standard ignitions but for the Pazon like you and I have fitted they will change it to plug directly into the box. The unit I have fitted is wired to the bike battery as I needed one for the EI.

I do agree with the Made in the USA but these are Made in England which is fitting to our bikes! I do like the Speed hut units and the split units they have (may need to upgrade in the future) are very nice.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/14/16 7:32 pm

finally found a cast aluminum cover for the ARD ignition



it's an interesting one, without the diamond ARD logo in the middle. i'm told not all of them had the logo. perfect fit either way, though. traded two old motorcycle catalogs and an aftermarket aluminum points cover for it.

i'm taking it off this machine, though. i've got a single-plug pazon smartfire to go on in its place that will be quicker to tune, and a shorei microbattery that just fits the 1965 battery carrier. that will power the speedhut tach, and although it means the bike will now have to have a rudimentary electrical system, enough other things will be simpler to make the swap worthwhile. i've got another project just aching for that ARD already.

at the moment i've sent one of the FCRs to barnett in ventura to make up keihin-to-amal cables for it-- i changed the cable-to-carb mount to horizontal, and the old cables were too short. i'll slip in the pazon and start setting up the ignition with mikunis until they come back.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/15/16 6:23 am

K, what diameter are the exhaust pipes? So you'll be using single plugs on the dual plug head?
Posted By: Mike Baker

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/15/16 7:07 am

Re: Speedhut tachs....
I put one on my LW production racer (350 Aermacchi). The motor gets a bit buzzy at my self imposed 7500 rpm redline, and it has now killed the tach twice. Got to believe its little brains got scrambled. I'm going to send it off to Utah again to have it fixed and this time figure out some sort of rubber mount similar to Scitsu. Maybe something for you to consider on your LSR, Kev
Mike
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/15/16 8:22 am

My 650 LSR Triumph has an electronic Equus tach...The vibration made the needle fall off. But you doing road racing is more severe for vibration effect than 45 seconds of LSR ?....Yes like you say the rubber mounting
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/15/16 8:27 am

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
K, what diameter are the exhaust pipes? So you'll be using single plugs on the dual plug head?


this is a stock head so far, just oversize intake valves and springs, so i'm running stock 1 1/2-inch pipes. i have a twin plug pazon that i'd like to be using, but that head is delayed.

the head i'm running now ha a tipped casting, so i dont want to invest more time and money on it.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/15/16 8:29 am

Originally Posted By mblab
Re: Speedhut tachs....
I put one on my LW production racer (350 Aermacchi). The motor gets a bit buzzy at my self imposed 7500 rpm redline, and it has now killed the tach twice. Got to believe its little brains got scrambled. I'm going to send it off to Utah again to have it fixed and this time figure out some sort of rubber mount similar to Scitsu. Maybe something for you to consider on your LSR, Kev
Mike


ive run mine on my street bike and the vibration tends to turn it off there, but it always comes back.rubber may do the trick.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/15/16 9:28 am

Originally Posted By kevin roberts


ive run mine on my street bike and the vibration tends to turn it off there, but it always comes back.rubber may do the trick.


I had a Speedhut on the 70 T120/750....It was mounted using the stuff in the kit...I ran the bike hard quite a bit and the tach never caused an issue...I thought my bike vibrated..
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/15/16 10:41 am

You can kinda see the rubber mounting system the Scitsu Tach uses. just some thick rubber mounted in a "u" shape to the mounting cup. Maybe something like this could be incorporated onto the Speedhut Tach?


Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/15/16 10:42 am

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
...I thought my bike vibrated..


dunno

i'm pretty insensitive to vibration, personally, but i had the unit taped to the stock loop on the fork tube. i have a more secure mount now.

vibration is subjective. i've driven bone-shaking pickup trucks all my life, and i still hate seats with cushions and springs. on semi tractors, i try to let all the pressure out of the air-ride seats until there's no springs left and the seat just sits on the metal floor.

i'm always surprised at the vibration i feel riding someone else's motorcycles-- not on their machines, but on mine when i get back on it. then after a while i don't notice it anymore.

on my LSR bike, the vibration at idle turns the horizon to water, and i can watch it flow from side to side. but i don't notice it otherwise.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/15/16 10:48 am

Originally Posted By Blown Income
You can kinda see the rubber mounting system the Scitsu Tach uses. just some thick rubber mounted in a "u" shape to the mounting cup. Maybe something like this could be incorporated onto the Speedhut Tach?




that's a beautiful machine even without the fairing. i've got to take the number two daughter to town in a bit, and i'll pick up some steel to use on the tank mounts. then i'll see where i'm at. just a doughnut of weatherstripping foam might be all that's needed.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/17/16 9:53 pm

had some time to spare so i swapped out the ignition from the ARD to a pazon smartfire. very carefully set the ARD aside in a box, with all the kill switches and other components intact. if i need to, i can reinstall the magneto in about fifteen minutes with four zipties and a bead of hylomar.

anyway, the pick-up assembly is a very tidy-looking unit:



the control module sits neatly under the top rails, attached to the front of the battery box:



the battery box itself is perfect for the little shorei sealed battery. total loss, so there is a charger pigtail attached permanently to the battery, and i can just hook the charger to an inverter on the truck if it starts to get low.



the speedhut tach sits as low as possible in front of the triple trees.



ECTA has some odd regulations about the instruments-- essentially the rules say any instruments must be mounted within an imaginary box in front of the top clamp, more or less in the stock position. i have no idea why. this tach is okay for now, because the huge old TR6 fuel tank i'm using won't let me hang off to the side significantly. the eventual plan is to exchange it for minimalist tubes, a long one on the right and a short one on the left, that together add up to the ECTA required 5-liter capacity. when i do that i'll see if i can get by dropping the tach even farther.

the price for the ignition exchange is wires-- lots of them:



there are wires from the battery to the module, from the module to the coil, from the pickups to the module, from the coil to the tach, from the tach to the battery, plus other stuff from both the ignition module and the tach that i'll either wrap into a loom or just cut off. plus a fuse box and an on/off switch.

the ARD had one 20-inch wire that ran from the mag grounding terminal to the kill switches, and that was all. but this pazon has an advance curve and the functionality to change the timing by just rotating the pickup plate a bit. so it may be easier in some ways.

waiting on a fuse unit from CE Auto Electric, then i can start messing with it.

https://www.ceautoelectricsupply.com/fuseholders.html
Posted By: NickL

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/18/16 6:16 am

Bloody electronics....they'll never catch on eh?
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/18/16 8:10 am

Originally Posted By NickL
Bloody electronics....they'll never catch on eh?


grin

Kevin, I never saw the rule about gauge location...This is where the tach was when I set the class record on 7/14...I get busted for low clipons and had to raise them ...

Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/18/16 9:55 am

Originally Posted By NickL
Bloody electronics....they'll never catch on eh?


i don't have anything against electronics, or wires, either. i run nothing but solid state on my old morgo, and it's never failed me.



it's just i'm annoyed at increasing any complexity on a racing machine, and the more i can leave off, the better i like it.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/18/16 10:42 am

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike

Kevin, I never saw the rule about gauge location...This is where the tach was when I set the class record on 7/14...I get busted for low clipons and had to raise them ...


a lot depends on who the safety people are at the moment you drop in. the last time i was there, the safety guy wanted me to put the clip ons above the seat, until i showed him that the rule was that they were to be above the rear tire . . . no problem, he was just trying to keep track of a whole lot of rules.
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/18/16 3:21 pm

A lot of yellow and red wires Kevin, where do they all go?
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/18/16 3:45 pm

Originally Posted By Allan Gill
A lot of yellow and red wires Kevin, where do they all go?


not so many as that, allan. i guess it looks a lot more complicated than it really is. there's only three fuses wired in this iteration-- the others are just blanks for stuff that isn't there at the moment. one red is the hot to the ignition, one red is hot to the lights, and one orange is hot to the oil pressure sender. a simple toggle switch closes the circuit between th ebattery and the fuse block.a

the yellows are just the three interchangeable alternator connections to the podtronics box, and the wires to and from the AF control unit/gauge on the triple tree.

in addition to the podtronics, boyer, lights, and oil pressure sender, i'm now running an electronic oxygen sensor and AF gauge, plus two kill switches (an on/off toggle and a deadman lanyard). no turn signals, no horn, no flashers, no momentary high beam. just minimal wiring to make it go. there's a place for the electronic tach, which is sometimes fitted and sometimes not.

every circuit is fused separately, so there's no more walking home because of short in the high beam wires. to make it easy to troubleshoot, every circuit runs from its own fuse to a distribution block, which is the terminal strip in the foreground, and from there to the component and back to the junction block. there's not a single two-into-one or three-into-one junction hidden anywhere on the bike, so no bullet connectors, and almost no in-line connections. no multiple hot leads from a single hot terminal post, anywhere, although there is a single ground terminal with several circuits terminating on it.

what this means is that everything that needs electricity on this machine has a single wire leading from its single fuse, to it, and then back to it's own ground. if anything goes wrong, it will be found within the connections of that single wire. works well. i never bothered with a wiring diagram because it's so simple one isn't necessary. if you want to trace a circuit, just find the wire at either end and follow it back.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/18/16 4:22 pm

Originally Posted By kevin roberts


what this means is that everything that needs electricity on this machine has a single wire leading from its single fuse, to it, and then back to it's own ground. if anything goes wrong, it will be found within the connections of that single wire. works well. i never bothered with a wiring diagram because it's so simple one isn't necessary. if you want to trace a circuit, just find the wire at either end and follow it back.


Kevin, your wiring is decent ...I rewire with one or two colors... Yup just trace em with a meter or as us electricians say, " Ring it out"...In the good old days we used a phone handset that would give off a clinking noise when you probed the correct wire..
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/18/16 9:28 pm

the important thing for me with wiring is that it's simple, reliable, and that i understand it. on that old morgo, i threw the nasty old greasy and spliced OEM harness away, rather than try to keep patching it and dealing with the prehistoric bullet connectors and fatigue-damaged conductors.

it will get more sophisticated eventually. right now there are no switches on the bars except for the kills, but i already have a really nice ducati switch pod from eurotrash jambalaya that will control lights, turn, horn, and kill, with just two feeds from the junction block. but i'm in no hurry.

http://www.eurojamb.com/domino-handlebar...3erfp09pl0p5112
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/23/16 4:46 pm

put the pazon together and wired everything in. the negative ground pazon uses a ground-to-earth kill circuit, so i plugged it right in the similar switchery for the old ARD.

and since the speedhut electronic tach and the pazon control module both take 12V feeds, i installed a CE electric supply three-fuse unit:





this piece of angle fits right above the battery without obstructing it, and the fuse panel takes a single battery feed from the toggle on the right. then there's a hot to the tach, another hot to the pazon module, and a third and last hot to the ignition coil. the post in the middle is the common ground for the battery, tach, and ignition.

interesting mechanical design philosophy on the pazon. i am not criticizing, just musing here.

the pazon has lots and lots of wires, of several different gauges. the small gauge wires are an issue, because i usually don't solder connections-- i crimp them-- and the tiny tiny wires used for the pazon control circuits don't like to accept american crimp connectors. i can still do it, of course, but it makes it a fussy procedure. some of them i solder anyway.

the new zealander philosophy seems to be to construct the electronic control module with various long wiring harnesses epoxied in place, and then to use in-line connectors (high quality parts are supplied in the kit, that i didn't use) or to simply run a three or four foot wire from the module to the various other components it connects to. such as the tach, kill switch or coil. so taking out the module means completely disassembling the wiring harness at various different places in the harness, rather than just uncoupling a component at a junction strip and attaching another.

i really like to use a junction strip near the middle of the harness to collect all the in-connections in one place, and then branch out from there to any components or sub-circuits. so everything can be attached or detached in one spot without disturbing anything else. but because there are so few sub-harnesses in this LSR machine, pragmatism won out and i used the long wires in several places.

just a different style. look at the pazon wiring diagram:



there's a three-foot black wire designed to ground the control module, running into a plastic loom. i cut it off at about six inches and connected it to the common ground post. what's stock for pazon is a two-wire harness to the ignition coil + and -, with a weird lucas-inspired piggyback connector on the coil to run a third wire all the way back to the ignition switch, which for me is three inches from the battery positive terminal to start with. i just cut the coil feed wire off at the box and connected it to a 10-amp feed in the fuse panel, and then connected the module end of the same cut coil wire to the same panel on a different fuse. no junction strip on this machine (i'm already regretting that,) so i left the three-foot trigger wire between the negative terminal of the coil and the module intact for now, as i did for the separate connectors from the module to the tach and from the module to the kill switch. pulled the plastic pazon wiring sleeves off and tossed them, then slipped all the wires into a single plastic corrugated loom tube and zipped it to the frame backbone.

all that's left is to run the nice three-wire pazon sub-harness to the pazon ignition stator and then time the engine with a degree wheel. (i did keep the separate sleeve for that one, as i run it away from the other wires to keep the ignition signal cleaner). this time i'll make more marks on the newby pulley than i did before. i use a dial-back-to-zero light on a running engine to time the motor because doing it that way needs only a single pulley mark (no matter how many advance settings you want to try), but having one at the stock 38 BTDC will make initial static timing easier in the future.

no keihins yet but i can start it up with the mikunis i ran at wilmington last month while i'm waiting.

if i have time i'll run it at the airstrip tomorrow afternoon.
Posted By: koncretekid

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/25/16 5:03 pm

Kevin,
Very nice attention to detail. If you ever plan to travel to Bonneville, shrink wrap over the connectors and the use of dielectric grease is recommended, or just rewire every couple of years as I have had to do!
Tom
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/25/16 5:28 pm

the salt is nasty on wiring, i take it?
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/25/16 9:54 pm

flipped the rear brake pedal up to match the heel-upshift lever on the other side:





now i have room to attach or detach the megaphones without disturbing anything else

with the magneto in a box, i now have room for the dual breathers up front i planned on, since the primary is dry.



the new cables arrived from barnett today, and so the carb tops don't interfere with my legs anymore:





all together now. too stinking hot to run it though, some 90+ F with ohio's 90 percent humidity and sun.

tomorrow maybe.
Posted By: koncretekid

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/26/16 6:32 am

The carbs and manifolds are long indicating a lower torque and hence hp peak - - good for accelerating thru the mile but maybe a bit too long for maximum hp. May I assume that you have substantial brackets supporting those carbs? I just finished making another mount for my carb (HSR42), as the previous bracket broke at Loring for a second time.

The heel type shifting never worked for me, but my bike is more of a laydown with my feet drawn up restricting articulation of my ankle. But how do you down shift for the return road? If it feels too awkward, You may consider making taller brackets to get the foot peg up where the heel shift point is now, and using a more conventional GP type down-down-down for upshifts. I have trouble downshifting, but I can always slip the clutch enough to get off the track and stop, then with my extended original shift lever with a handle, I can downshift back to first by hand to get going back to the pits.

As for the salt being hard on electrics at Bonneville, it is hard on everything! Basically requires taking apart anything that can corrode and cleaning, oiling, or even repainting to store for the following year. This is especially important when we store our bikes in high humidity climates, as the salt is hygroscopic and absorbs water from the atmosphere.

Tom
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/26/16 9:16 am

Kevin, the fastest vintage Brit Twin LSR bikes have short intakes from what I see....But testing is the only way to know for sure..
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/26/16 1:19 pm

dunno about intake tracts. just have to look. i'm not wedded to any theory.

got it running this morning on the new ignition. wouldn't start at first. then i remembered to turn the switch on. but it still wouldn't start. then i remembered to open the petcocks.

then it still wouldn't start, until i said, wait a minute, and flicked the kill switch the other way. then it started first kick. i'd put the kill switch on upside down.

i hate switches with icons. i'm too stupid to remember what they mean.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/26/16 1:35 pm

Originally Posted By koncretekid
May I assume that you have substantial brackets supporting those carbs?


big rubber bands! and zip ties.

Quote:

The heel type shifting never worked for me, but my bike is more of a laydown with my feet drawn up restricting articulation of my ankle. But how do you down shift for the return road?


same as you-- i left the whole gearshift lever in place, so i can hand shift it like an old knucklehead.



i already have my knees against my chest with the pegs where they are, so raising them up any higher would likely require enough contortions to qualify me for the circus.
Posted By: Jerry Roy

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/26/16 10:28 pm

Originally Posted By kevin roberts
dunno about intake tracts. just have to look. i'm not wedded to any theory.



http://www.velocity-of-sound.com/velocity_of_sound/calculator3.htm

http://www.velocity-of-sound.com/velocity_of_sound/calculator2.htm

http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced%20Engine%20Tuning/Intake%20Runner%20Length.html
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/27/16 7:48 pm

jerry, thanks for the links. i'm really interested, but still skeptical, -- not on whether or not sonic tuning is real, but on how well it can be predicted mathematically. at least by me.

there are just so many variables that interact in so many different ways-- some are additive, some are subtractive. things like temperature, air pressure, cam opening and closing rates, changes in intake tract diameter, valve head shape, and so on. most of the formulas hold some or all of them constant, or add in correction factors that aren't explained. and it all gets further complexified by similar things happening in the exhaust.

having said that, though, my cams have an advertized duration of 296 degrees. with an intake tract diameter of 1.1875, a redline of 7000 rpm, and tuning for the third harmonic, the recommended total intake tract length from your link is about 13.5-inches.

that's the number that's been recommended to me elsewhere by tuners, and is the same as old Panic's estimate from his amal concentric tuning manual. with a four-inch carb, and four inches from valve seat to spigot end, a five-inch extension is 13 inches.

the one on the bike now is 12 inches, and i also have a set for 11 inches and another for 13. plus i can use nothing to get 8.

although my cables are long enough to reach them, i'm not sure that the 13s will fit under my legs. the 12s were sucking my trousers into the bellmouths today during some shakedown runs. won't happen with leathers, but you can see where the interference is.

but i'll start testing. if i get some help, i'll see what i can do tomorrow.
Posted By: gavin eisler

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/28/16 8:29 pm

Luvvin it so far Kevin, these hose mounted carbs get very droopy quick, something that lifts them a bit will give more downdraft and get them away from your legs a bit, a hoover drive band looped round the frame might do it, hoover drive bands are also used for Manx type central oil tanks , so they have pedigree and are available at corner stores..
. I had bungy cords round mine before I hitched them to the air box. The throttle linkage is not slim! I hope it goes well for you.Looking good.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/28/16 10:38 pm

hoover

lol.

when was younger i had a friend with a dog who snuffled everywhere

they named him hoover.

who knows what the carbs want ?? rain for three days yet, then we'll see

your advice and suggestions are greatly appreciated
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/28/16 11:29 pm

here's the problem with extended carbs:

looking down on 12-inch extensions:



with a rider:



no extensions:



i've got my legs squeezed in here as tight as i can . . . the advantage to sonic tuning of the intake tract (according to several formulas) is likely to be lost in practice because it keeps my knees out in the wind, given my class constraints of a stock frame.

with a modified frame and oil tank, this might not be an issue . . . next year!
Posted By: Jerry Roy

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/28/16 11:50 pm

Something to consider;

The length of the intake tract, for tuning purposes, is usually considered to be with out internal obstructions. At part throttle, all bets are off. But, if you are going for top speed, your slides/ butterfly's should be wide open, and in that case, it doesn't make any difference where in the inlet tract they are placed.
So if they are next to the head, and the length is in the bell mouths, it should be a little easier to get them, (the bell mouths and lengthed tract), tucked in, allowing your knees to be closer to the tank.
At part throttle, with the carbs closer to the head, you might also have less "drop out" of fuel droplets.
Just a thought.

CZ
Posted By: gavin eisler

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/29/16 5:17 am

Hmm, musing on harmonics, if the third is 13.5 , then the whole would be 3 x 13.5 = 40.5. so the 1/2 harmonic would be 20.25, maybe moving them further back would get them out of the way,behind your knees , more throttle cable though. Possibly like a guitar which has a stronger harmonic at the 12th fret, 20.25 would give a stronger resonance? for a stronger effect.Cant say Ive seen one like that long before , maybe it wouldnt work at all. An OIF would make it a lot easier with the side panels off, that oil tank makes life awkward.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/29/16 5:53 am

The long intakes make for good theoretical discussions.I'm not saying they can't work.....On the LSR track you don't see them on the fastest Brit twins..
This is typical of Alp's engine tuning...and you can check the photo of Tom's 650MPG BSA in the Maine Woods thread...

Posted By: koncretekid

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/29/16 6:07 am

Don't worry about the details too much. Git 'er done and git 'er going!
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/29/16 10:43 am

Kevin,

I would think any gain in HP with the extensions would be lost in MPH due to the loss of Aerodynamics having your knees out in the wind.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/29/16 12:01 pm

lots of suggestions, folks. thank you.

Originally Posted By Jerry Roy

So if they are next to the head, and the length is in the bell mouths, it should be a little easier to get them, (the bell mouths and lengthed tract), tucked in, allowing your knees to be closer to the tank.
At part throttle, with the carbs closer to the head, you might also have less "drop out" of fuel droplets.


the FCRs are spigot-mounted on the heads, which is good, but the airhorn is attached to carb by a bolt-flange, which is bad. to change the length of the tract on the bellmouth side is more complicated than just attaching a tube with a hose clamp. different-length bellmouths are available, but are expensive. i could fabricate a bolt-on spigot, and may yet do that. it would make the apparatus less heavy on the end, and would also keep the fuel from puddling, as you point out.

Originally Posted By gavin eisler
Hmm, musing on harmonics, if the third is 13.5 , then the whole would be 3 x 13.5 = 40.5. so the 1/2 harmonic would be 20.25, maybe moving them further back would get them out of the way,behind your knees , more throttle cable though. Possibly like a guitar which has a stronger harmonic at the 12th fret, 20.25 would give a stronger resonance? for a stronger effect.Cant say Ive seen one like that long before , maybe it wouldnt work at all. An OIF would make it a lot easier with the side panels off, that oil tank makes life awkward.


you're right about the OIF-- it would make things a lot easier. my OIF morgo street bike runs just fine with the 12-inch tubes, and they don't interfere anywhere. i think before i ran anything that long, though, i'd have to come up with a mount on the carbs to attach a tube. maybe i could cut up an existing bellmouth to make into a flange for a spigot? have to look.

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
The long intakes make for good theoretical discussions.I'm not saying they can't work.....On the LSR track you don't see them on the fastest Brit twins..


that's a very important observation. with the current frame and tank, though, i have to have a three-inch extension to get the carburetors clear of the petcocks and to let the cumbersome cable mechanism get clear of the rocker boxes. i've run out of money again before i could get tube tanks made, so it looks like i'm running them this way in september, unless something turns out to be really wrong. the tube tanks will let me put the carbs where i want without bumping into things, and also get my fat head out of the slipstream. right now i have to ride the damn thing with my chin sitting on the tank.

Originally Posted By Blown Income
Kevin,
I would think any gain in HP with the extensions would be lost in MPH due to the loss of Aerodynamics having your knees out in the wind.


it also makes it hard to ride, because i lose stability not being able to grip the bike with my knees. using the heel-shifter already puts me on tiptoes on the pegs until top gear. so i'm going to stick with as short an intake as i can get away with at first. i may have to return to a toe-shift, which was a problem with the ARD-- kicking the bastard was not easy and my heel hit the shifter if i wasn't careful. if i do that i'll have to lose the megaphones, because they interfere with the lever in the down position.

Originally Posted By koncretekid
Don't worry about the details too much. Git 'er done and git 'er going!


lol

it's done. everything works, everything is in place. well, everything works except the GPS tach. the tach part is fine, but the GPS stuff doesn't seem as reliable-- that means tuning is still a two-person task because someone has to hold a stopwatch for me. and everybody is busy, so the tuning part is slow. my wife is out cleaning the quaker meeting house right now, because we've got the yearly meeting coming up next week. when she gets back i'll see if she can help me out for a bit.

this week it's been raining, and i've only made it out to the strip for a shakedown once with the FCRs. running with the stock open pipes and the 12-inch intake tract produced terrific reversion from about 3500 to 4000. at 4000, the reversion turns off like an electric switch and the bike accelerates hard up to around 6000, which is where i run out of pavement. the reversion is pretty obvious, shown here with the megs on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52g1zK4wuPU
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/29/16 3:27 pm

Originally Posted By kevin roberts


this week it's been raining, and i've only made it out to the strip for a shakedown once with the FCRs. running with the stock open pipes and the 12-inch intake tract produced terrific reversion from about 3500 to 4000. at 4000, the reversion turns off like an electric switch and the bike accelerates hard up to around 6000, which is where i run out of pavement. the reversion is pretty obvious, shown here with the megs on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52g1zK4wuPU


Beware of the acceleration after the reversion...It feels strong because the reversion bog is slow in comparison...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/29/16 3:40 pm

i imagine you're right. i've got the wife to agree to do stopwatch duty tomorrow morning, so we'll at least see what mains it wants.

i'm probably going to go ahead and mount the AF gauge on it even though i'm running leaded fuel-- i have one available slot in the fuse panel. according to the manufacturers, the lead will kill the sensor after five or ten thousand miles, but that's way more than enough for what i want out of it.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/29/16 3:58 pm


Your bike at idle has more lope cam sound than mine...

Throttle jockey
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/29/16 4:45 pm

it smooths out at around 2000, runs okay to somewhere around 3000-plus, and then is truly awful until 4000.

normally when i do main jetting i start a timed section in 3rd gear and 30 mph (maybe 3500 rpm), then roll the throttle to full as fast it will take it and run 800 feet. that gives some 9 or 10 seconds of full throttle run, and i'm often 80 or 90 mph at the end. i'm guessing the lousy breathing at low rpms will make me change that.

the stopwatch is pretty variable depending on who is pushing the button-- i have four kids and a wife who all have different timings. when i get some money ahead i'm buying one of these:



https://www.amazon.com/Bushnell-Speedste...ords=radar+guns

it costs no more than one hour of dyno time, so i'm hoping it will be worth it.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/30/16 8:27 am

It's my understanding the cloud of vapor from the carb is a sign of inversion ..
My bike has some inversion around 3500 rpm ... Accelerating at less than full throttle in first gear until past the inversion range works well enough for this type of racing...Full throttle below the inversion range seems to make it worse..
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/30/16 8:58 am

Sounds like a real beast Kevin!
Posted By: gavin eisler

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/30/16 4:24 pm

When I had a short mega 2 into 1 on my BSA I got the same effect at 3,500 rpms, not so bad with a twin pipe and balance pipe.
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/30/16 4:33 pm

When running do you get a flat spot at any point in the range?

When I retarded the stock BSA cam so that both valves opened equally on TDC, it improved the general performance but had a flat spot between 4-5000 rpm. Right where I didn't want it. It was suggested to try a different coil and I switched from a 4.2ohm to a 3ohm coil which cut the flat spot down from a 1000 rpm range to a 5000rpm range. Bike fitted with 2-1 with clubmans silencer with baffle removed and reduced outlet pipe. Good silencer setup and increased torque no end. But the cam timing didn't do anything for that flat spot.

Can anyone explain the difference between reversion and inversion. I always understood that reversion was where gasses passed back towards the carb and were then doubled up on the next intake opening. Over richening the mixture.
Posted By: Andy Higham

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/30/16 5:14 pm

Racing piston ported two strokes produce a cloud of fuel "out of the power band"
This is not due to exhaust effects like reversion, but due to long (symetrical) inlet timing. As the piston descends mixture is pushed back up the port picking up more fuel on the way, then it is sucked back into the crankcase picking up even more fuel.
once the expansion chamber starts doing its thing, it sucks the mixture up the transfers and through the crankcase.
I guess a lot of this happens to a lesser extent on a four stroke, probably the only way to avoid it is correctly spaced gear ratios to keep the engine "on the pipe"
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/30/16 6:31 pm

shoot, i dunno yet.

spent several hours at the airstrip this morning to try to get some timed runs for the main jets but ended up just sorting various rideability issues instead.

i had the 17-inch reverse cone megaphones on it for starters. old picture of them on my morgo:



with these in place the bike was an open-throttle dog up to 4500 rpm. i couldn't fully open up at any speed below 4500 without the carburation collapsing in a fit of rich misfires. once above 4500, the combustion cleaned up, but by that time i had used up about half of the distance i normally use to make a timed run. if i tried holding the rpms at 4500 to start the section, i was at 8000 by about half the run, and then shifting complicated the numbers.

so i took the megaphones off, and ran open stock pipes. another old picture:



the reversion is still there, but much diminished, and it will catch and run clean at 4000. the bike takes full throttle more easily, but still runs out of room before i can get to the top end. not that that takes much distance-- it's at 7000 rpm very quickly-- but it's going faster than i have room to shut down in after the second cone.

with either pipes the 2-3 shift drops the rpms almost 2500, and if i shift below 7000 rpm, it drops it into the bog zone and slows things down. so shifting needs to be higher than 7000, at least for 2-3. maybe time to put in that 5-speed after all, this winter.

i spend some time retightening things that were loosening up, and trying to solve a mystifying top end rich spot. i'd be accelerating hard at 6500 and suddenly the machine would break up into a rich blubbering. i finally looked down and saw that the right hand carb was stuffing itself full with the loose cloth of my trouser leg. so i wound about three feet of masking tape tight around my leg and the misfiring went away.

the heel shifter isn't needed without the megaphones, if i'm careful kicking, and so i swapped the peg on the right down. much easier to ride with a conventional lever.

anyway, i'm going to put the AF sensor on this evening and see what it says. using the 2900-foot airstrip was great for my streetbike, but doesn't look as if it will be as useful with this one.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/30/16 6:34 pm

Originally Posted By needing
Originally Posted By kevin roberts

Hi Kevin.
I can't see clearly re your reversion video but there does not appear to be a balance tube between manifolds (or preferably ports):
High inlet port pressure due to valve overlap for one cylinder is partially offset by a negative pressure in the other inlet port at compression/power TDC hence a 'balance' tube.
Ta.
Owen.


yes, owen, there's no connection between the tubes. the valve seat to spigot on this machine is 4 inches at 30mm, i think, then a 3-inch tube on hose clamps, and a 4-inch distance from carb spigot to bellmouth. i could add a balance tube between the carbs by using a hose barb. i'm not sure i'm smart enough to use it correctly, though, with everything else going on.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/30/16 6:58 pm

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
It's my understanding the cloud of vapor from the carb is a sign of inversion ..
My bike has some inversion around 3500 rpm ... Accelerating at less than full throttle in first gear until past the inversion range works well enough for this type of racing...Full throttle below the inversion range seems to make it worse..


that's exactly what it's doing. i'm looking at technique here. shifting at 7000 drops it to 5300 at the 1-2, to 4500 at the 2-3, and to 4900 at the 3-4. shifting at 7500 drops it only to 4800 at the 2-3.

the five speed cluster is a lot closer ratios. you have to take the time for an extra shift, but you stay up above 5500 mostly the whole time.

saw 8000 rpm twice-- it goes there instantly. got to set that rev limiter.

i was wondering whether it could breathe that well with the stock ports but it apparently does. don't know how much torque it has up there though.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/30/16 7:09 pm

Originally Posted By gavin eisler
When I had a short mega 2 into 1 on my BSA I got the same effect at 3,500 rpms, not so bad with a twin pipe and balance pipe.


with these separate pipes and the longer cam the reversion seems to be up a bit higher. i was using a very short cam in my morgo with these pipes-- some 282 degrees and 0.348 lift-- and the reversion was down at 3500 with those as well.

Originally Posted By Allan Gill
When running do you get a flat spot at any point in the range?


not that i could detect. above 4000 there didn't seem to be any hesitation at all. below 3000 the misfiring was absent. only in the 3000 to 4000 range was there a problem and it was n't a flat spot so much as rich blubbering. i'll take it out again as soon as possible with the AF sensor and see exactly what's going on in there. i've got to get the ordinary mixture issues separated from the reversion so i can get the throttle response as clean as i can.
Posted By: gavin eisler

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/31/16 1:08 am

Extensions to the headers were fitted to Goldies when running without a megaphone, might be worth a try . 40 " is a good number to start with .longer pipes for lower resonance, shorter for higher.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 07/31/16 2:46 pm

i was talking with one of the lowbrow customs people here in ohio the other day about the double-engine triumph they have run at bonneville.

he told me that they showed up at the dyno place with their bare pipes and a selection of extensions and ended up shortening their pipes with a hacksaw instead.

this was it, i think:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tytAClZCsqA
Posted By: gunner

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/03/16 4:39 pm

I was wondering whether the carbs have been properly balanced using a pair of vacumme gauges, especially since there is no balance pipe between the manifolds.

If the carbs arent synchronised all sorts of rough running can occur as each cylinder fights against the other.

The general principle is that with a vacumme gauge attached to each inlet manifold, the throttle slide idle position is equalised and then the throttle cables are adjusted so that each slide opens at exactly the same time and the manifold vacumme is equal.

Using a vacumme gauge is by far the best way to tune carb synchronisation and much better than using drill bits to judge the slide resting position.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/03/16 5:30 pm

you bet. i use an old uni-syn vacuum gauge:



these are easy to use because once you set the slides to lift at the same moment you then just twiddle the carb idle screws until the unisyn's little orange float rises to the same height on either side.

these carbs have a remote idle speed adjustment-- a little knob on a control wire-- so balancing the two carbs takes literally less than a minute. the idle speed adjuster is that thing that looks like a vent tube hanging down from the throttle shaft:

Posted By: gunner

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/03/16 7:21 pm

I've never used a uni-syn vacuum gauge before and my experience has been with the Morgan Carb balancer which originally used a mercury column for each cylinder and now uses steel rods instead.

I have no doubt the uni-syn vacuum gauge works at idle speeds but I do wonder whether its accurate enough at higher throttle openings to show discrepancies between the cylinders, especially in your highly tuned application.

I would be inclined to use separate gauges for each manifold to prove that the slides were operating equally throughout the range.
Posted By: John Healy

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/03/16 7:30 pm

Quote:
Using a vacuum gauge is by far the best way to tune carb synchronization


Given that there are about ten things, other than the slide height, that directly affect manifold vacuum would you be inclined to re-think that? Differences between cylinders in: timing, compression, cam overlap, weak valve springs, valve adjustment, valve sealing, sticky valves, ring seal on intake stroke, cam timing,etc. A skilled technician can use manifold vacuum as a diagnostic tool, but starting out to use a vacuum gauge as a diagnostic tool most people will get as good results reading tea leaves in the bottom of a cup. It is a skill that takes a lot of practice.

Uni-Syn is reflecting venturi vacuum. Venturi vacuum will also reflect any problems where there is a difference in cylinders.

The tipping drill method also has its draw backs and can easily give you the idea you have "balanced" the slides where in reality you haven't.
Posted By: gunner

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/03/16 8:03 pm

Quote:
Given that there are about ten things, other than the slide height, that directly affect manifold vacuum would you be inclined to re-think that? Differences between cylinders in: timing, compression, cam overlap, weak valve springs, valve adjustment, valve sealing, sticky valves, ring seal on intake stroke, cam timing,etc.


No, I'm not inclined to rethink my point, which was about the best way to sync carbs following a complete engine rebuild which would hopefully involve checking the valve timing using a dial gauge, strobing the ignition, compresion check etc.

The starting point has to be that the engine is in good condition following a rebuild and then needs final tuning to ensure the carbs are in sync.

If the engine still runs bad following a rebuild and repeated attempts with carb sync, then sure this may highlight a problem with one or more of the potential issues listed, however carb sync and balance should only at the final stage of a rebuild or on an engine in good condition.
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/04/16 2:50 am

laughing

I have a morgo carb tune, works great on the likes of my Honda 4 but not near accurate enough for the A65, and they certainly aren't accurate if you steadily open the throttle and hold it at a set point. You'll find the rods are all over the shop (which refers to what John is talking about I believe).

I have a Gunson carb tune which is similar but probably not as good as Kevin's above. TBH I've yet to use it. I set the slides with throttle fully open and locked. Lower the slides until they are in alignment with the top of the bore of the carb. Then when I lower I use 2 steel rods to adjust the idle speed screws so that they both lift equally off the stops. I've had many good results like that. But will ring up my carb sync tool and check. But the bike pulls strong.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/04/16 6:44 am

In Land Speed Racing, once the bike/vehicle leaves the starting line the entire race is wide open throttle running on the main jet. There is no part throttle operation ... The engine needs to start and idle with reasonable reliability. It needs to accept the throttle in a reasonable manner for leaving the starting line...and if the slides are slightly out of sync it's not going to make any difference..What does matter is the slides fully open and clear the throttle bores equally...
Posted By: John Healy

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/04/16 8:57 am

Quote:
Using a vacuum gauge is by far the best way to tune carb synchronization


Have you considered air flow to be a better way to tune for carb synchronization?
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/04/16 9:47 am

Originally Posted By John Healy
Quote:
Using a vacuum gauge is by far the best way to tune carb synchronization


Have you considered air flow to be a better way to tune for carb synchronization?



In addition and logical really, it explains why cars have a MAF (mass air flow) sensor fitted. Don't know of any vehicle to meter by vacuum whistle
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/04/16 11:54 am

Originally Posted By John Healy
Quote:
Using a vacuum gauge is by far the best way to tune carb synchronization


Have you considered air flow to be a better way to tune for carb synchronization?



Modern electronic fuel injection uses a mass air flow sensor in addition to other sensors to meter fuel ...The 80's Bosch mechanical injection used an air flow "flap" to meter fuel...
Carburetors also meter fuel by air flow...
Metering carburetor air flow at the air horn is sort of what the Uni Syn tool does...You create a slight restriction to operate the simple ball in a tube meter..
Posted By: John Healy

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/04/16 2:27 pm

HB: UniSyn uses venturi vacuum, not air flow.

Think about this. It is a German made Air Flow meter used to synchronize multiple carburetors.

Air Flow Meter
Posted By: gunner

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/04/16 2:34 pm

Quote:
Have you considered air flow to be a better way to tune for carb synchronization?


No I haven't considered measuring air flow as an option and as far as I'm aware, vacumme gauges are the only way to get some kind of indication that the carbs are synched on old british twin cylinder bikes.

I have previously tried a device similar to the one Kevin is using and personally I couldnt get on with it. I think the main issue with this type of device is that there is vacumme on both sides of the ball, so in effect, the cylinders are fighting each other as ball is being sucked one way or another. In my opinion, using separate gauges for each cylinder a better and more accurate solution and having tried the dial type gauges I have found the Morgan steel rod type the most accurate.

Agreed that carb sync may not be such an issue on a LSR bike which spends most of its time at WOT, however in the interest of getting an accurate reading I favor individual gauges.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/04/16 4:07 pm

Originally Posted By John Healy
HB: UniSyn uses venturi vacuum, not air flow.


Uh...On second thought, yes............I bought that air flow meter...
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/04/16 4:29 pm

John. What do you make of this product John, it is a little crude I admit. But it has the ability to completely restrict or not, air flow. I have one but I am yet to try it on my bike.

http://www.gunson.co.uk/product/G4053
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/04/16 5:25 pm

You know, putting you ear to a length of 3/4 ID hose and holding the other end to the carb mouth works pretty good on multiple carbs used on autos..Try it on your bike...
Posted By: John Healy

Re: mail-order LSR - 08/04/16 8:11 pm

HB isn't kidding. A bit old school and requiring some practice but it does work.

People were pretty handy in the old days when money or tools were not available. I still use rod rock to do a final check of the clearance when I put in new rod races and hone them to size. 0.018" rock measured just under the wrist pin of a Vincent rod equals .0009" rod bearing clearance. I still use my mikes and bore gauge, but can't help myself doing it the way I learned nearly 50 years ago double checking my mikes by measuring the rock.

Allan: I am sure it would work, but looks a bit fiddly. It uses the same theory as the UniSyn. Until the Japanese multi's came around the UniSyn was the "go to" tool. For the average person reading this the chances are the bike doesn't have places to attach a vacuum tool or the air box blocks the air inlet making using something that measures either venturi vacuum or air flow a real bother to use. The exception being the Bonnevile. Try using either on a Trident of BSA Rocket Three.

There is another way, but she who must be obeyed wants to go home.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/03/16 7:41 pm

took the bike to wilmington for the last event to be held there. they're looking for another airstrip, but that one is history. looks like i'll be at loring this spring, 1100 miles along the way to moncton.



anyway, it was a learning experience. the bike has a pazon smartfire at 38BTDC, 35 mm FCRs with 140 mains to start (can't remember the pilots and needles) on three inch stubs, a megacycle 510-x2 cam with 0.374 lift and 296.5 duration, 11.75 to 1 JE pistons cut up by ed v in michigan, a billet 750 crank cut down to fit the 650 inch mains by RODY in michigan, steel MAP rods, a morgo oil pump, bronze tappet blocks lifted up about 0.030 with shims to clear the cams, a stock 1.5-inch dual exhaust with no mufflers, and a stock 1970 head with 1.660 OS kibblewhite intakes and kibblewhite beehives. can't remember the installed height, have it written somewhere. NGK B8ES 0.024. they looked good, so i never installed the B9s i had just in case.

the machine was overgeared with a 36:68 newby belt primary and 20:43 in the back. it couldn't pull redline in top, and in fact didn't have much top end at all. it would roar through the gears up to 7300 in 3rd at about 96mph, and then would fall on its face in 4th gear, dropping to 5900 and only creeping up to 112 in the mile. i need to come back with a 46 rear or a 19 front. very clearly the parts aren't working together yet, but the pattern is emerging. i'm guessing it's gearing and breathing.

this machine has had no dyno time, and so i have no idea what the ideal length for the pipes or intake tract is-- both were chosen because of what would fit, rather than what would make power. so that's part of the winter laundry list. i didn't test timing, but that's the first task on the dyno, before anything else.

what else . . . the wiring harness caught fire on friday and i had to re-engineer it before the first runs, fasteners kept falling off-- motor mount nuts and so on. i had a box of nuts and bolts and slathered everything i replaced with loctite before re-assembly. next time i'll ditch all the CEI bolts and BS fasteners so everything is SAE and can be replaced locally. i may modify the ARD magneto i have to make static timing easier and ditch the pazon. i like th eretarded spark for starting, but electronic ignition doesn't seem to offer anything a good mag doesn't also provide, and the mag requires nothing in the way of batteries, wiring, fuses, and circuitry.

the expensive speedhut tach/speedometer was useful only part-time. the GPS function is unreliable, because the unit can't consistently see the satellites and doesn't initialize. in addition, the tach function is really sensitive to vibration and more than once i looked into the tach to gauge my shift point and saw it pegged at zero. so that's going, and it will be replaced by a mechanical unit, cable-drive.

pilot error was a big deal. the bike was hard to start because of an awkward clearance between the gearshift lever and th ekickstart, dictated by the rules. i would kick the bike, it would start, and a split second later my heel woul knock the box into first, and the bike would stall. i finally rotated the gearshift lever back until it was vertical, which solved the clearance problem, but took a couple of runs to teach me how to move my feet. once i got it down, starting was easy, shifting was flawless, and the rains shut the last event at wilmington down forever.

winter work is in the cards-- tube tanks, relocating the oil tank to keep it away from the carb mouths, electrical and ignition changes, installing the oil filter, and lots and lots of tuning.

but i had a ball, and my teenage sons want to go back in a streamliner. and i just happen to have a machine that i can adapt:

Posted By: koncretekid

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/05/16 9:50 am

Kevin,
What I have learned, much of which you just learned:
Always use SAE grade 8 fine thread bolts with steel locknuts for engine mounting and other strategic fasteners.
Use only the best wire connectors you can find and get a good set of crimping pliers. Use heat shrink tube over the connector and use dielectric grease in the connectors, especially if attending the Salt Flats. Use fuses to protect circuits. I use a separate switch for ignition and another for gauges.
Put the bike on a dyno to get A/F right at wide open throttle, then adjust timing for maximum horsepower. Don't worry if the low to mid rpm show incorrect A/F as long as you can pull thru those areas. You are WFO at all times in Land Speed Racing. When you know where your maximum power RPM are, gear for it and take sprockets to bracket that optimum.
Get a good reliable tach. I've had good luck with Scitsu but I don't know if it will work with a magneto. The tach is the only way you'll know if you're reaching that sweet spot or not.
Comfort and access to controls is important. I have to have my pit man get my foot in position or I won't be able to shift. Use GP shifting if possible, 1 up for 1st, then down, down, down. A chin rest can help you get more aerodynamic.

There will be a next time, but I know you don't want to experience the same issues again.

And by the way, having sons who are interested will be the greatest satisfaction in your endeavours! And that little 250 will make a good starter project.

Tom
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/05/16 6:06 pm

the other thing about fasteners is to have spares. i had the swingarm nut fall off the bike onto the tarp while i was doing something else-- it will be safety wired from now on, with duplicates. i may safety wire all the motor mount bolts just so i don't have to worry about them.

i'm still of two minds about an electrical system. i don't really see a need for one if a magneto ignition is working well, and if a mechanical tach is accurate. the ARD i have has the two-piece adjustable pulley wheel permanently frozen into one, so changing the timing means breaking the taper and re-fitting it, then measuring. a boyer/pazon (even a lucas 6CA) system is vastly easier to make small adjustments with, but i'm going to investigate locating new pulley wheels or making a two-piece pulley with a better design, to allow fine adjustment. the joe hunt version of the ARD allows the mag body to rotate to adjust timing-- my old fairbanks-morse unit is bolted in place.

shifting the bike is much simpler with the lever elsewhere than vertical, but rotating it forward for a GP style action interferes with the kickstart, as i described. so long as it's in that position, it's easier to shift positively if hook my foot under it and pull, rather than try to extend my ankle over 180 degrees. i can move the rearsets back to solve the problem, but if i do i'll also have to extend the swingarm to keep the axle 6 inches behind the peg, per the rules. or i could abandon the rear suspension and fit a hardtail, which is apparently okay with the rules people. lots to lear from this beautiful TR6, here for the first time:



^^^dual TM flatslides on welded stubs on a TR6 head. this bike did 113. doing a hardtail means relocating the seat, oil tank, and adding a fender system too. or i could pull the kickstart mechanism and just use a handheld starter, but i'd rather not so long as starting with one person is still possible.

on riding position, i ride the bike lying down with my belly and chin on the tank anyway, with my helmet jammed down on the seam and the tach 6 inches in front of my nose. most helmets these days have a pointy chin piece, so it's hard to get your chin down flat like you could with the old bell stars. there's a modern bell-star-shaped helmet available, but is only SA-rated for cars, not legal for motorcycles. costs $579 too. after i get the tube tanks on, i'll be trying to put my chin lower than the top tube anyway, off to the side, so that won't be an issue, maybe.

tom, thanks for the suggestions. if you have anything else that comes to mind, or more on this stuff, please let it out. i have no ego here, and i'm interested in learning anything i can from people who know more than me.

Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/06/16 7:06 am

Kevin, my LSR experience is currently zero, however I did a lot of research on the triumphs (and with John healy pointing me in the right direction) I managed to get what I wanted.

Triumphs upto about 67/68 were a lot quicker than the later 650 models (which i beleive barely made 90mph) Infact the T110 was probably as fast as the early T120. by 69 they had used larger ports

The early small port A65's were also much faster than the later large port models, the 65' lightning was reported to have done 119mph when tested by motorcycle magazine (we know BSA would have sent a prepared bike) but they were much quicker.

The Brick wall effect your having is what pushed me to do a lot of investigation, I looked at everything that Triumph and BSA did at the time, including making drawings of all the cam positions (open/close and lobe centres) used on the T110, early and late T120, and the BSA Spitfire and Touring cam.

I firstly modified the head, I found that at the time it accelerated better than anything I had done before but the top speed was still down. It was still topping out at 105, which would have been fine but it was like hitting a wall, it would accelerate to that point then bump, wouldnt die off on power, it just hit its limit.

I then checked my cam timing, I was 20 degree's advanced! It eventually turned out that the cam pinion i had bought was incorrect (but not knowing any different I had aligned the marks) I susbsequently retarded the cam timing 1 tooth. This slowed acceleration back down, but it would pull 107mph in 3rd gear. I never tried to find top speed in top, I knew the engine had a damaged rod and stripped it before it blew up.

The cam fitted at the time was of such that neither cylinder timing matched the other. The left cylinder had low compression because of a crack at side of the spark plug thread, and yet none of this seemed to slow it down.


Your 1970 head will be ideal for modifying, probably more so than an earlier head. Its a shame you had already fitted new guides, as opening the bowl area around the guide, then filling the port floor would have helped considerably.

If you find another 1970 head, I would look into playing with it and seeing what you can achieve, this is what I did (which i why i bought a head that leaked, I just didnt know where the leak was from)

I have also found that altering tappet cleanaces (more so on the inlet) had a big impact on the character of the bike. As this will advance and retard the cam by a fraction. Infact megacycle state that tappet gaps are for refrence only and used as a starting position.

HTH
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/06/16 7:59 am

Kevin, I that Triumph per the rules should be in the A/PG 650 class. I know your allowed + 10% from factory wheelbase. I guess the best thing to do would be to call Keith and ask.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/06/16 8:55 am

Allan, I think more than anything, the gearing on Kevin's bike was too high for the situation..
My 650 Triumph ran 120MPH at Ohio in warm weather with a slight headwind using a stock 70 T120 head and Amal 32MM concentric carbs and the somewhat mild Sifton 390 cams and 10.5 compression. I had done no dyno tuning at that time...geared the bike to turn 7000 rpm at 120 MPH...
The bike ran 125 later on with head work,larger Mikuni carbs, and slightly higher gearing in warm weather...I never adjusted the timing on the dyno or track....
I've also noticed the bike runs the same speed in hot humid weather ...And I make an effort to get heat into the engine before handing it over to the rider on the starting line..
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/06/16 7:00 pm

Originally Posted By Allan Gill


Your 1970 head will be ideal for modifying, probably more so than an earlier head. Its a shame you had already fitted new guides, as opening the bowl area around the guide, then filling the port floor would have helped considerably.

If you find another 1970 head, I would look into playing with it and seeing what you can achieve, this is what I did (which i why i bought a head that leaked, I just didnt know where the leak was from)


the 1970 head on the bike now is really a grocery-getter that i never intended to race. my intended 70 head is in tennessee with leo goff, who is planning to start from scratch on it. but that's a long-term thing, as it seems now.

i'm probably going to get another head and have it modified. i'll talk to the porter about what he would like to start with and see if can find one he likes.

i've never messed with the cam timing (or valve clearance) on this motor-- there's so many variables i want to get a dyno baseline to start with, and then begin educating myself as i go.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/06/16 7:03 pm

Originally Posted By Blown Income
Kevin, I that Triumph per the rules should be in the A/PG 650 class. I know your allowed + 10% from factory wheelbase. I guess the best thing to do would be to call Keith and ask.


you're probably right, but i seriously don't mind. i'd pay attention to a significant cubic inch violation, or something equally edgy, but for these, his bike was a fair competitor for anything that i could enter, and he was a nice guy to boot.

lol, twice he pulled out of line and i ran up to ask what he needed, and both times it was, "an adjustable wrench would be awesome . . ."

so he even had the same problems i did.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/06/16 7:18 pm

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
Allan, I think more than anything, the gearing on Kevin's bike was too high for the situation..
My 650 Triumph ran 120MPH at Ohio in warm weather with a slight headwind using a stock 70 T120 head and Amal 32MM concentric carbs and the somewhat mild Sifton 390 cams and 10.5 compression. I had done no dyno tuning at that time...geared the bike to turn 7000 rpm at 120 MPH...
The bike ran 125 later on with head work,larger Mikuni carbs, and slightly higher gearing in warm weather...I never adjusted the timing on the dyno or track....
I've also noticed the bike runs the same speed in hot humid weather ...And I make an effort to get heat into the engine before handing it over to the rider on the starting line..


i think the gearing was a lot of it. the head would pull 7300 in 3rd without breaking a sweat, so to speak.

i had a final drive of 4.06, using a 36/68 primary and a 20/43-- that gives me my over-geared 132.9 at 7000, and i did realize a 96 at 7300 in 3rd, which is right on the money as far as the calculations go.

if drop to a 19-tooth gearbox sprocket, i get 126.2 at 7000 in top. alternatively, changing to a 46 rear gives me 124.2, the same.

i don't know where the horsepower and torque peaks are, and i'm not certain how to use them to optimize gearing once i find that out. do i set the gearing so that my hoped-for top speed occurs a bit below th ehorsepower peak, to allow for wind losses? or do i gear for the torque peak?

i do know that at 5900 in top, my available horsepower exactly balanced the wind drag, at 112 mph. i'm not sure where to go from there.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/07/16 8:00 am

Originally Posted By kevin roberts


i think the gearing was a lot of it. the head would pull 7300 in 3rd without breaking a sweat, so to speak.

i had a final drive of 4.06, using a 36/68 primary and a 20/43-- that gives me my over-geared 132.9 at 7000, and i did realize a 96 at 7300 in 3rd, which is right on the money as far as the calculations go.

if drop to a 19-tooth gearbox sprocket, i get 126.2 at 7000 in top. alternatively, changing to a 46 rear gives me 124.2, the same.

i don't know where the horsepower and torque peaks are, and i'm not certain how to use them to optimize gearing once i find that out. do i set the gearing so that my hoped-for top speed occurs a bit below th ehorsepower peak, to allow for wind losses? or do i gear for the torque peak?

i do know that at 5900 in top, my available horsepower exactly balanced the wind drag, at 112 mph. i'm not sure where to go from there.


My bike's HP peaks at 7250 rpm on the dyno..At the Maine 1-1/2 mile the engine wouldn't pull past 7050 RPM, 128+ MPH.. The engine has a very broad torque and HP band...
I think your engine with the stock head will make the most power around 6800 rpm...From my experience I would gear it for 120 at 6800 rpm..
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/07/16 6:18 pm

using 18, 19, 20, and 21-tooth gearbox sprockets, and either the 43 or 46 rear sprocket, these are the options:

speed at 6800 rpm

18/46 108.6
19/46 114.6
18/43 116.2
20/46 120.7
19/43 122.6
21/46 126.7
20/43 129.1 <<<this is what gave me 112mph at 5900
21/43 135.5
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/07/16 6:53 pm

hmmm

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike
Alan, Yes,LSR,I'll check your sprocket guys.... The bike has 4.47 overall gearing. I have a 21 tooth gearbox sprocket and the 47 tooth conical hub.With a 120/90-18 26.5 inch tall rear tire that's about 124 MPH at 7000 rpm.Will this bike pull 124 mph or perhaps more RPM at the Ohio mile this summer? I don't know but we have to be options for tuning purposes..
The engine should pull to 7500 rpm in the gears but maybe not on top end.The engine may have enough power to pull top speed at 6800 rpm.
I believe the 650MPG ECTA record at Ohio is 119 MPH.
The rear wheel and tire is something we have and the tire is brand new. So I don't want to lose it and have the expense of a 19 inch rear wheel and new tire for a small gain.The 21 tooth sprocket just clears the case after some grinding.Will have to see what happens as high speed forces get the chain to wiggling like a snake in a hot oven.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/07/16 6:55 pm

On mine at Ohio

21-50 118-120 mph

21-49 125 mph

At Maine

21-47 126 one mile , 128.2 1-1/2 mile

125 mph at Ohio was the same engine tuning as Maine...27 inch tall rear tire
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/07/16 7:00 pm

so at maine your machine pulled 7100 at the traps to get 128?

that's what my math indicates, with your 27-inch tire

your first tire was 26.5. i thought
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/08/16 6:19 am

Same rear tire on all runs...I checked the rear tire diameter with a tape measure so it might be off a bit...And bias tires grow some at speed so the actual rpm is a guess since the tach is unreadable at the finish line...
My rider thinks the bike could have gone a few mPH faster at Maine if the engine was turning a little less rpm at the finish...
This is the seen previously dyno printout from my bike...Notice that at 7000 rpm the HP and torque are near peak and for my bike this might be the rpm to gear for highest speed...




Posted By: koncretekid

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/08/16 10:29 am

At Loring (for instance) I would gear for 128mph at 6800 rpm with that kind of a very flat hp curve. At the point on the hp vs. speed curve that we are at, 1 hp will make roughly 1 mph more speed. If you get a bit of a tailwind, you might get to 128 mph with only 46 hp, and with 49 hp on tap, you might be able to gain an extra few mph.

In a headwind, you would need to go the other way.

In any case, bring lots of rear sprockets and be prepared to make changes depending on conditions.

Tom
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/09/16 11:05 am

tom, i've been trying to learn as much about gearing and horsepower curves as possible. obviously dyno time is required to find out the shape of the curves, but my non-custom options are limited to 18, 19, 20, and 21-tooth gearbox sprockets, and a 43 or 46 rear. running a 20/43 now gives me a top range, and adding a 19 gearbox sprocket and a 46 rear gives several combinations in the 120 to 125 range.

what i'm thinking i need is gearing low enough that it takes me the whole mile to work up to 6800 to 7000 or so at the lights.

much higher and i can't pull the gear. much lower and i pass the horsepower peak midway through the run.

does this sound correct?
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/10/16 2:14 pm

As I mentioned earlier kevin, gear the bike down and run it on the runway. It will yield better results than being in the dyno, which can't tune for wind resistance.

If your not getting any higher top speed then look at the cam, and think about advancing it a degree or two
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/10/16 2:51 pm

Originally Posted By Allan Gill
As I mentioned earlier kevin, gear the bike down and run it on the runway. It will yield better results than being in the dyno, which can't tune for wind resistance.

If your not getting any higher top speed then look at the cam, and think about advancing it a degree or two


While the track is the real test....My bike went directly from the dyno to the track without any changes to set a few speed records..When you know where the peak power is you can gear accordingly...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/10/16 6:37 pm

Originally Posted By Allan Gill
As I mentioned earlier kevin, gear the bike down and run it on the runway. It will yield better results than being in the dyno, which can't tune for wind resistance.

If your not getting any higher top speed then look at the cam, and think about advancing it a degree or two


i didn't forget, allan. that runway is my ace in the hole. i'm headed back there maybe this weekend to do some experimenting, i hope.

i'm not certain a gearing change would help the testing, though-- if i gear it tall so i can load full throttle at lower speeds, i drop into the reversion zone from about 3500-4000, and i use up the runway getting through it. and if i gear it short to run higher rpms at lower speeds, i complicate the measurement because i have to shift.

but there may be a way around it, and the only way to find out is to test. that was confused last time because i was also expwerimenting with a heel-shift setup, which turned out to be pretty awkward.
Posted By: koncretekid

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/11/16 9:46 am

What Hillbilly said - "While the track is the real test....My bike went directly from the dyno to the track without any changes to set a few speed records..When you know where the peak power is you can gear accordingly..."

Rebel Gears will make you any size rear sprocket you want for about $50 each. It's a lot easier to change rear sprockets than front ones. Once you start seeing the peak hp rpm near the timing lights, that's when you start making small changes to your motor.

Allan - "If your not getting any higher top speed then look at the cam, and think about advancing it a degree or two." Advancing or retarding the cam one tooth will change your valve timing events by about 12 (on a BSA single), which is a lot. I use a crankshaft pinion with five different keyways so I can make changes of about 2, but you need a degree wheel and a dial indicator to set it up. But without multiple dyno runs, you won't know which is best. So generally, play with jetting, ignition timing, intake, and exhaust lengths first.

Tom
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/11/16 4:34 pm

Advancing the intake cam timing will lower the point of peak power 200-500 rpm...It will also reduce intake valve to piston clearance....4 degrees advance on my Triumph decreased intake valve to piston clearance by about .040....
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/11/16 7:37 pm

at 6800, a 19-tooth front with 4 rear sprockets gives a range between 115 and 123:

19/43 122.6
19/44 119.8
19/45 117.2
19/46 114.6

18 is too slow (108.6 to 116.2).

continuing to use the 20 with larger rear sprockets is interesting at 6800:

20/43 129.1
20/44 126.1
20/45 123.3
20/46 120.7

i'm hoping to have a head that can pull this by the spring.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/12/16 7:33 am

Too much thinking softens the brain...Get the bike on a dyno to find the power peak and main jetting. At the track you can concentrate on your riding tuck and minor tuning adjustments..
A well prepped machine will be competitive off the trailer...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/12/16 8:20 pm

lol

got off the telephone with rob hall this afternoon-- had to pull the dump truck off the road so i wouldn't attract the cops. very interesting conversation. i'm now looking for a 1972 9-bolt head, the first with the bolt-on carb manifolds. that's also the same head as on my faithful commuter bike that did an annoying 117 this past april, with mild MAP porting, a dual plug mod, and stock gearing. and with a headlight, for crying out loud.

before then, i'll need to relocate the oil tank so that it's not in the way of the carb extensions, if the motor likes them long. ditch the huge T150 tank i have and use some short tube tanks so the keihins can get set up close to the head, if it goes that way. to mount the aftermarket oil tank, i'll lose the battery carrier, but that's not a problem since the ARD is going back in, because i know it works and after i modify it to allow the mag to rotate for strobe timing, it won't be hard to tune.

once all that is together, then it will go to the dyno.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/12/16 8:23 pm

anybody got a decent 72 head for sale?
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/13/16 6:00 am

You want a 72 head because it lacks the threaded stubs making for better porting options?
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/13/16 8:26 am

yes

apparently you can squeeze 2 more millimeters out of it.

my morgo street bike is a 72, with porting done years ago at MAP. 117 mph with reverse cone megs, a street cam, and 34 mm VMs.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/13/16 9:29 am

Originally Posted By kevin roberts
yes

apparently you can squeeze 2 more millimeters out of it.

my morgo street bike is a 72, with porting done years ago at MAP. 117 mph with reverse cone megs, a street cam, and 34 mm VMs.


Can't Rob weld tube on the head to replace the threaded intakes? Then port without the thread restrictions? You already have the head that never got finished? Might be cheaper and easier ?
For the record; years ago I installed a 750 two carb head on a 650...I elongated the front inside bolt hole and drilled and threaded a hole for the rear inner stud into the 650 barrel...This worked out just fine...however, welding up the existing front hole and drilling a new on sounds better...Should be a better supply of 750 heads than 72 650 heads...And the 750 head has a bit more metal. However, I have no idea if the 650 and 750 heads have the same size combustion chamber..Just ideas...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 10/13/16 5:50 pm

Originally Posted By Hillbilly bike

Can't Rob weld tube on the head to replace the threaded intakes? Then port without the thread restrictions? You already have the head that never got finished? Might be cheaper and easier ?


he probably could, but i suppose it's easier to start with one that's closer to what you want. the old MAP literature used to claim that the 72 head was the best too, explaining that the factory was doing flow work by that time as well.

on that other head, i'm still willing to work with leo for at least a little longer. this isn't the last motor i'll be building, and if i can keep that one in line, then i think it's worth it. if he retires completely, though, then i'll do something else.

Quote:

For the record; years ago I installed a 750 two carb head on a 650...I elongated the front inside bolt hole and drilled and threaded a hole for the rear inner stud into the 650 barrel...This worked out just fine...however, welding up the existing front hole and drilling a new on sounds better...Should be a better supply of 750 heads than 72 650 heads...And the 750 head has a bit more metal. However, I have no idea if the 650 and 750 heads have the same size combustion chamber..Just ideas...


i don't know anthing about the 750s, but i would have thought the combustion chamber was a bit wider-- maybe not. i'll start learning about them. i do see the 72s for sale occasionally.

in a pinch i can take the head off my street bike, pull the dowel pins, and run that.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/05/16 12:17 pm

sniped an excellent 9-bolt head on eBay with four seconds to go. but it's unfamiliar to me.









good chambers and seats, no broken fins, threads all there. stubs welded onto the original push-in exhaust ports, which is okay with me.

the casting number--71-2863-- reads out as a late 1972 10-bolt head, but this one doesn't have the tenth hole drilled, and the intake manifolds are different from the ones that used to be on my april 1972 street bike. designed for the late rocker boxes with holes for the dowel pins.

anybody have anymore insight on this? it came off a running machine that the owners wanted to convert to a single carb.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/05/16 12:27 pm

I believe on a ten bolt the front inner head bolt is in a different location than the 9 bolt...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/05/16 12:33 pm

shocked

holy [censored]. hope not

i got it cheap, but not that cheap. hopefully the hole can be welded up and then just re-drilled.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/05/16 7:55 pm

I'm pretty sure that 9 bolt head will bolt onto a 9 bolt 650 cylinder....You have the OIF rocker boxes ?
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 11/05/16 8:39 pm

i've got all kinds of rocker boxes at this point.

i'm using the older ones because the head steadies fit on my 65 frame without modification. but i've got some OIF units as well, and i like the two-piece head bolts on those better. pulling the dowels would be no problem, but fabbing a head steady bracket wouldn't be hard either.

the 650-into-750 triumph heads are a bitch to keep straight, with all the changes they imposed. this 10-bolt casting with 9-bolt drillings is a new one on me.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/17/16 7:53 pm

in the mail today. my number one daughter claimed it as her christmas present to me













rob says the head flowed significantly better than stock after his work on it. too dark to really see much. will look closely tomorrow in the dawn's early light
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/17/16 8:13 pm

Rob does do nice work...
Posted By: NickL

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/17/16 9:14 pm

I'm sure someone can confirm or dismiss this but, i think the very first 750's were 728cc and the head was able to be used on a 9 stud barrel as the pattern was the same but did have 10 studs.
I'm not totally sure though.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/17/16 11:14 pm

beats me. i'm taking it to the shop in the morning to have a critical comparison with a 9-bolt head gasket.
Posted By: Jack Adams

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/18/16 12:12 am

kevin,late 72's (650's) came with that head,commonly called the 9 1/2 bolt head. I'm surprised you haven't heard that term. Jack
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/18/16 12:31 am

i have an april 72 T120 with the 9-bolt head and bolt-on manifolds. i didn't know there was anything between that and the ten-bolt until now.

but i'm always being surprised by these things. by the time i learn all that i want to know, i'll be dead.
Posted By: NickL

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/18/16 12:48 am

I have done some delving and discovered the early 750's were 75mm bore (724cc)and used a 9 stud head, would have been the same as you have there. The short barrel 750 then went to 10 stud.
Posted By: spook

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/18/16 4:29 am

That is interesting Nick.in the past, I was told that when Triumph went to the 10 head and rocker boxes the long rod motor would not fit in the frame. It was cheaper to shorten the barrel and the rods than make a new frame. This maybe true, maybe not?
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/18/16 9:06 am

Looks good Kevin, what do the flow numbers look like? H
Who makes those intake extensions?
Posted By: RPM

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/18/16 11:03 am

Originally Posted By NickL
I have done some delving and discovered the early 750's were 75mm bore (724cc)and used a 9 stud head, would have been the same as you have there. The short barrel 750 then went to 10 stud.

You are correct that the early T140 was 724cc. However they all used ten bolt heads. The head shown here was fitted to 1972 and 1974 T120s.
The early 724cc T140 can be spotted by the 3/8x 26TPI outside head bolts. Same as the 650 head bolts. Later they switched to SAE bolts. So on the early 724cc jugs the inside holes are SAE and the 4 outside bolts are CEI
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/18/16 4:04 pm

Originally Posted By Blown Income
Looks good Kevin, what do the flow numbers look like? H
Who makes those intake extensions?


dunno what the numbers really are. rob said "improved by 55%," whatever that means, probably max valve lift. i don't know what volume or velocity improvements have been made at the lower to medium lifts that occupy more of the critical flow time, and he's out for the holidays. i'll get him back on the telephone when he gets back in.

he did the extensions, which are really nice, matched to the ID/OD of the keihin carbs and blended into the ports in the head. the exhaust spigots were already welded onto the head, which was a plus for me as all the eBay bidders who needed originality stayed away from this one.

still have to get to the shop today. the surfaces in the ports and chambers are smooth but slightly rough. work included PM valve guides, OS intake AND exhaust valves, springs and titanium retainers, spigots (purchase and boring), porting, multi-angle seat and blending, and decking.

i'd like to have a flow bench set up so i could measure myself, but i have decided that this work is specialized enough that i'll have to let the fanatics do it for me.
Posted By: NickL

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/19/16 7:16 am

Originally Posted By RPM
Originally Posted By NickL
I have done some delving and discovered the early 750's were 75mm bore (724cc)and used a 9 stud head, would have been the same as you have there. The short barrel 750 then went to 10 stud.

You are correct that the early T140 was 724cc. However they all used ten bolt heads. The head shown here was fitted to 1972 and 1974 T120s.
The early 724cc T140 can be spotted by the 3/8x 26TPI outside head bolts. Same as the 650 head bolts. Later they switched to SAE bolts. So on the early 724cc jugs the inside holes are SAE and the 4 outside bolts are CEI


I think The head they used was the same one as the 650 (9+1/2 stud) but drilled for 10 studs as the centre spacing was different to the 750.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 12/19/16 10:17 am

Originally Posted By NickL


I think The head they used was the same one as the 650 (9+1/2 stud) but drilled for 10 studs as the centre spacing was different to the 750.


You can see on Kevin's head ( bike head ,lol) the inner front bolt hole has an oval boss compared to earlier 9 bolt heads not having that feature...I believe on the 10 bolt the front inner bolt was relocated about 3/16 inch more forward... At least this is what I remember from fitting a 10 bolt head on a 9 bolt barrel...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/12/17 11:26 am

traded my machinist an afternoon on his TR6 project for some stuff, including this:



this cover was ruined by that footpeg dent from somebody tipping the bike over, but cutting the hole makes it perfect for me. so now i can cool the belt drive and also get at the clutch adjustment screws without taking off the cover.

the rules say i need to have rotating parts shielded, but i think this will fly. it's no more exposed than the rear drive chain. i'll bring along an unmodified cover if they don't like it.
Posted By: pushrod tom

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/12/17 11:34 am

Looks purposeful and.............FAST.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/12/17 11:58 am

lol

wish i did. i have some 10 pounds to get back off my middle before i'm back at the flat-belly profile i had last autumn laying flat on the tank. the more i can lose, the closer to the frame i can hug.


Posted By: Jerry Roy

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/12/17 1:07 pm

Originally Posted By kevin roberts


the rules say i need to have rotating parts shielded, but i think this will fly. it's no more exposed than the rear drive chain. i'll bring along an unmodified cover if they don't like it.


Or a trip to the second hand store might net you an aluminum pot lid. Might be quicker at the track to install than changing the cover.

CZ
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/12/17 1:19 pm

Kevin, SCTA rules say open primaries or exposed clutches must be covered to prevent rider entanglement..I believe LTA rules are the same? If so , the inspectors may bust your balls about it..Perhaps a cover made from perforated steel or what the post above suggests...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/12/17 4:09 pm

they were satisfied with this last summer at ECTA



we'll see. i have the ordinary solid cover that i ran before, because there was so much oil coming from the pushrod tubes i was afraid of destroying the belt.

hopefully i'll solve that problem.
Posted By: Andy Higham

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/12/17 5:34 pm

I need to use a full cover on my GM powered sprint/lsr bike. With my feet on the pegs (about 100mm in front of rear axle) the inside of my left knee (the tender bit) is resting against the clutch. All the after market carbon or grp belt covers seem to have a hole over the clutch
Posted By: pushrod tom

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/12/17 6:06 pm

Kevin, Send a note to Jesse Chop in Maine on the ruling. He decides.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/12/17 6:28 pm

thanks, tom. i'll put it on and send him a picture. only takes a minute to swap it on and off, because there's no oil in there.

interestingly, at loring, a rear chain guard is optional:

Quote:
7 B 16 Chain guard:
Chain guards are optional. If a chain guard is run it must be made in a secure manner which resists deflecting and that will not allow the chain to lock the rear wheel during failure. The guard must also extend over the rearward edge of the rear sprocket and forward past the forward edge of the drive sprocket. If the chain is not shielded, riders body must be protected from chain path.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/12/17 8:19 pm

Originally Posted By kevin roberts


interestingly, at loring, a rear chain guard is optional:

Quote:
7 B 16 Chain guard:
Chain guards are optional. If a chain guard is run it must be made in a secure manner which resists deflecting and that will not allow the chain to lock the rear wheel during failure. The guard must also extend over the rearward edge of the rear sprocket and forward past the forward edge of the drive sprocket. If the chain is not shielded, riders body must be protected from chain path.


Some think the odds are greater for a chain jammed in the guard locking the rear wheel at speed than the rider being slapped upside the head by a thrown chain...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/13/17 7:58 pm

like seat belts.

i once drove down the road at 50 mph in a twenty foot flat bed upside down hanging from the seat belt. the belt kept me from falling out through the open window below me that was full of sparks and grinding pavement.

then when it came to a stop with me upside down, i couldn't undo the belt because my weight was jamming the latch, and the belt kept me from getting into my pocket where my knife was.

so are seat belts a good idea? that one saved me from falling under a sliding 23,000-pound truck. but then if the truck had caught fire it would have killed me.
Posted By: johnm

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/14/17 2:10 am

Originally Posted By kevin roberts
like seat belts.

i once drove down the road at 50 mph in a twenty foot flat bed upside down hanging from the seat belt. the belt kept me from falling out through the open window below me that was full of sparks and grinding pavement.

then when it came to a stop with me upside down, i couldn't undo the belt because my weight was jamming the latch, and the belt kept me from getting into my pocket where my knife was.

so are seat belts a good idea? that one saved me from falling under a sliding 23,000-pound truck. but then if the truck had caught fire it would have killed me.


Sorry Kevin. Totally cannot agree.

You just havn't been taught properly how release the belt in a roll over.

I was lucky enough to be sent on a comprehensive defensive driving course by my employer. Including skid pan and snow driving training - but also training in seatbelt and roll over simulators. All the instructors were competition rally drivers

Firstly we were rolled down a slope at speeds of 20 (12.5 mph) and 30 km per hour (18.75 mph) head on into a wall - with seat belts on. Well that taught me in a big hurry just how practical stopping yourself from smashing your face into the wheel or dash at any speed above about 10 mph would be.

Believe me at 20 mph you would be smashed unconscious by the car - or at least have some very nasty face injuries. (assuming no airbags of course. This simulation did give us sore ribs and could give you bruising from the belt - especially at 30 km/hr.

Then we were put in a roll over simulator. When you are upside down your weight stops the belt undoing. But what you do is place one arm and one leg against the roof and lift yourself to free the belt. Its easy once you see the method. One strange thing is that you do need a few seconds to orient yourself after the roll over. To tell which way is actually up and down.

Bottom line is without the belt you would either be killed from being thrown from the car or unconscious or so injured so you would burn to death anyway.

Seat belts used properly save lives. Simple as that.


http://www.meshbesher.com/blog/2012/09/rollover-accidents-what-to-do-if-you-end-up-upside-down/

Bit unfortunate that it's on a law firms site :-)

Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/14/17 6:07 am

Well after having a 100mph head on crash last year (50+50) I got away with 4 broken ribs, busted back and whiplash and the seatbelt did its job perfectly. Without it Id have been giving the other driver's passengers the fright of their life wink

I've also come off my bike at 50mph and I'm glad seat belts arent fitted to bikes. Came away with a graze on my wrist where there was a gap in my builders gloves.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/14/17 7:14 am

well, ive always worn seat belts and always will. but theres no such thing as a 100 percent foolproof automatic safety device.

i once drove an 80,000 pound tractor trailer into a two-lane highway tunnel a mile and a half long. as i entered the tunnel, a radistor hose blew. i couldnt stop the truck inside the tunnel without risking the kind of pileup that involves dozens of cars so i kept going. but the computer thought otherwise and shut off the engine a mile inside the tunnel to keep it from overheating.

luckily there was a shutdown override switch that let me start the engine and drive out of the tunnel to a spot i could pull out of traffic. no collisions, no fires, no deaths.

my next truck had no override switch. when i complained, my supervisors told me not to worry, the incident that had happened to me was rare, and they were prepared to take the risk.

lol
Posted By: johnm

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/14/17 8:36 am

" but theres no such thing as a 100 percent foolproof automatic safety device."

I certainly agree with that.

Getting of the original subject but anyway. I read somewhere that the increasing number of audio warning noises in aircraft cockpits have been found to become so familiar to the pilots their ears are starting to screen them out and ignoring them. So they are starting to take many of them out again.

This came to mind when I got a new car and sat there one day trying to figure out which one of about 5 different issues was causing the car to beep at me !!
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 02/22/17 10:46 pm

not so bad, maybe

[Linked Image]
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/06/17 1:02 am

okay, back to the LSR.

looking to make up tube tanks for chest room, and improve the carb clearance for extensions. this mockup used cardboard tubes:

[Linked Image]

shelved the giant old triumph tank, either a TR6 or a trident, i don't know which. with 4-inch tube tanks i need about 28 inches to get to the rules-mandated 1.32 gallons, and it looks like two 14-inch tubes will get me to 1.5 gallons. thought i might have the tank on the left shorter to let me get my chin down, but it won't be necessary, i think.

the tubes need to clear the bars on the front at full lock, and still leave room for the huge throttle linkage of the keihins. these instruments were originally designed for push/pull cables, but thankfully they come with pretty good return springs:

[Linked Image]

i have two setups-- one is vertical (^^^this one). it was awkward because i had to lie down on top[ of the cables, which bent the sheaths over. i also have a horizontal setup:

[Linked Image]

^^this one ran pretty well at wilmington with 3-inch tube extensions, for a total tract length of 11 inches. i also have 1, 2, 4, and 5-inch tube extensions to test. i've tried the 5-inch tubes on my street bike, and they seemed to run okay. no dyno yet, though.

the vertical cables interfere with the triumph tank, and the horizontal cables interfere with the rocker boxes. can't use anything shorter than a three-inch extension. i could try a third angle, in between, but each linkage/cable assembly costs about $150, so i think i'll just stick with vertical and try not to mess them up.

more to do:

- ditch the stock 1965 oil tank and replace with a lowbrow crossways chopper tank to give more room for the carbs
- swap out the pazon for the ARD magneto, and ditch the battery and wiring harness
- install a mechanical tach to replace the electronic speedhut unit (that needed the battery)
- install a cutdown fibreglas fender to replace the tacky aluminum sheet i have now. (it's REALLY tacky . . . )
- swap out the stock head for the ported rob hall unit, and install adjustable pushrod tubes to keep it from pissing oil like it does now
- build a tuneable exhaust system to replace the skinny 1 1/2-inch stock-size unit
- remove the front disc brake (i'll pull the studs and install bolts so i can put it back on quickly-- some sanctioning bodies require a front brake, but not loring.)
- change the gearing. 20/43 could only pull 5900 at 112 mph. i have 18, 19, 20, 21, 43, and 46 to mess with. something in there will work.
- dyno, dyno, dyno . . .
Posted By: koncretekid

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/06/17 12:51 pm

Kevin,

I don't know what your primary ratio is or your peak horsepower RPM, but if all you could pull was 5900 with current gearing at 112 mph, you're going to need a 50 tooth rear sprocket to get to 125 mph at 7500 rpm. Or drop the front sprocket down. I have made a spreadsheet that I can input primary gear ratio, tire diameter, final gear ratio, and engine rpm to determine speed. It's pretty simple if you have MS Excel, I can probably email it to you. PM me with your email address. In fact, send me your primary ratio and rear tire size, and I'll set it up for you.

As for the throttle cables, the horizontal ones look like the one you'll want to keep the cable runs clean. As for intake lengths, every advice I have ever read suggests that tuned longer intakes are better, but unless you have access to a dyno, you can't determine the results of varying lengths. And trying to make that determination at the track will be both time consuming and dependent upon all other conditions between runs (temperature, humidity, wind). One extra horsepower will result in one or two more mph, but not much more, so you could end up chasing your tail before you find the optimum.

Tom
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/06/17 1:48 pm

Talk about intake lenghts always leads me back to the fastest Triumph 650's built by Alp with short intakes.....I'm starting to believe the key to speed on power limited engines like Triumph is more to do with the bike and rider than the engine...And the weather, head or tail winds have a big influence that doesn't show in the record books...I have also been told that power at high rpm and fast LSR speeds are not a given. And I believe Tom's BSA that now has the MPG650 record at Maine is making maybe 5-8 more HP than my Triumph...

With this in mind, I changed my bike to try and find out if more speed can be had without increasing engine power.....I cleaned up the bike,appearance, added fabricated cylinder fuel tanks so the rider can get his helmet down lower...Revised the seating so the rider can straighten his back...new skinny tires with a V rating thanks to Tom and Mike raising the record above the H tire rating grin And the T160 rear wheel allows more sprocket choices...The bike is now using 21/45 rear drive for a 4.28 overall ratio with a 27.5 inch tall rear tire, 133mph @ 7000 rpm without consideration for slight tire growth at speed...The bike ran 128.2 mph@7000 rpm consistently at Maine with 4.47 gearing , My rider said the bike was wound out before the 1-1.2 mile finish line...Might have been air drag limited or RPM limited, only one way to find out...
The megaphones in the photo have not been tested on the dyno or track....

[Linked Image]
Posted By: koncretekid

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/06/17 2:42 pm

Tony,

Your bike looks great and I believe you will get more speed, if your rider can get his chin down on the tanks (easier said than done.)

I suspect you were referring to Pushrod Tom's record, not mine. My record is in APG 650 is 130 mph, but my bike is built longer with a lower seating position which allows me to get down lower. Of course in APS-PG, the wind resistance is extremely reduced and probably can't be duplicated without a full fairing, front and rear, but it results in +20-25 mph on my bike.

Other Tom
Posted By: pushrod tom

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/06/17 2:57 pm

It's nice to see some chatter here. There has not been much R&D here in NJ this winter. I have not been able to runs the bikes mainly due to logistical issues but will need to get moving before too long. So, I would like to think you can blame me for motivating your off season efforts just like Tony's 2015 Loring efforts got us to take a hard look at solving some lingering problems with our own junk.
The twin tanks look wicked and should be worth some speed. Kevin, I like your simplicating approach. Without being preachy, try to get the carbs as close as you can and concentrate on getting the exhaust right. Lots more potential there! I think OT has good points about gearing. Maybe the 46 would be a good starting point assuming that your power package is optimized. This is hard to figure but the wind at Willmington was mostly crap. Loring is, statistically at least, more favorable.
Cheers, PRT
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/06/17 3:18 pm

Concrete Kid, yes I was referring to Pushrod Tom's BSA record in MPG650 class....It's a good turn of speed and will be a serious challenge to match...The double engine Triumph build has taken most of my time.....And dicking around with pistons..
As I think about it right now, this July might be my last LSR meet...at least with push rod Triumph twins...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/07/17 12:06 am

Originally Posted by pushrod tom
Kevin, I like your simplicating approach. Without being preachy, try to get the carbs as close as you can and concentrate on getting the exhaust right. Lots more potential there! I think OT has good points about gearing. Maybe the 46 would be a good starting point assuming that your power package is optimized. This is hard to figure but the wind at Willmington was mostly crap. Loring is, statistically at least, more favorable.
Cheers, PRT


i'm starting with 20/46, which calculates out at 124.2 at 7000. if the bike pulls that, i can switch up to 19/43, which will do 126.2. if it doesn't, i can switch down to 18/43, which can give me 119.6.

if it pulls the 19/43, next is 21/46 (130.4) and then back to 20/43, at 132.9.

lol. all these numbers are just hand-waving.

i don't even know where the power peak is yet.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/07/17 12:07 am

Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike

As I think about it right now, this July might be my last LSR meet...at least with push rod Triumph twins...


what about the duck?

you did good already with that guzzi.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/07/17 12:49 am

Originally Posted by kevin roberts
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike

As I think about it right now, this July might be my last LSR meet...at least with push rod Triumph twins...


what about the duck?

you did good already with that guzzi.

The Guzzi is pushrod.... Ducati would be the 1000 cc OHC class up against 4 cylinder bikes with way more power......The Triumph 650 racer is an excellent piece..it did better than expected and is reliable. We will see what the double does on the track....I want to build something else....something very vintage...
Posted By: pushrod tom

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/07/17 1:38 pm

It's hard to do much more than wave the hands in the middle of winter.
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/07/17 11:14 pm

Kevin, I agree with the "other Tom" keeping the cables horizontal neatly tucked out of the way from tangling up with anything.

Tony, The double tanks look sweet. Not sure if I'm going to make the May Loring event. Wrapping up the updated head install, still need to finish the new GB install, fabricate new headers and Dyno tune. Might need to hold off until the september meet.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/08/17 1:03 am

Originally Posted by Blown Income
Might need to hold off until the september meet.


run the bantam!

ECTA has only a pushrod record in 125cc. whatever you do will get into the books.
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/08/17 2:59 am

Originally Posted by kevin roberts
Originally Posted by Blown Income
Might need to hold off until the september meet.


run the bantam!

ECTA has only a pushrod record in 125cc. whatever you do will get into the books.


Run the Bantam, thats funny. That would take forever to run the 1 1/2 mile maxed out at 40mph.

I have thought about running the A10 but the with speeds Tom and Tony have put down w/o some major R+D it would be hard to gain 12+ mph. I really want to run the A65 on the mile and half to see what she will do with the new upgrades, just got to see if I can fit in an extra week of from work.
Posted By: pushrod tom

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/08/17 2:58 pm

Chris, There might be something available in the Classic or Twins class just for an excuse to tale the A-10 for a blast! PRT
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/08/17 11:25 pm

Originally Posted by pushrod tom
Chris, There might be something available in the Classic or Twins class just for an excuse to tale the A-10 for a blast! PRT


I will need to check but that could work. It is really fun taking a 61 yr/old british bike and testing its limits.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/09/17 11:49 pm

heard on national public radio that wilmington is looking for a replacement for amazon to keep the town afloat.

the winning option seems to be growing medical marijuana.

if this is so, then ECTA may get the runway back and also have something else to offer winners besides license plates.
Posted By: old mule

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/10/17 1:36 pm

Something "very vintage"? A 4 valve Rudge can make the same HP as a 350 DR Suzy, and the Rudge is pushrod.
A very light alum. frame and skinney tires... what class would it run in?
google "Stratford Rudge"

Your 650 looks great.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/10/17 2:08 pm

Originally Posted by old mule
Something "very vintage"? A 4 valve Rudge can make the same HP as a 350 DR Suzy, and the Rudge is pushrod.
A very light alum. frame and skinney tires... what class would it run in?
google "Stratford Rudge"

Your 650 looks great.


Thank's....I don't think I could afford Rudge..But if i could find that sort of engine and put it into custom frame for A class....

Kevin, there's a 1/4 mile drag strip just west of Cincinnati, Edgewater? ....They have Friday night "test and tune", 20 bucks to race and the safety standards are more lax the LSR..Gear the bike for maximum rpm in high gear at about 100-110 mph... Snapping out the clutch at 6000 rpm is always entertaining..
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 03/10/17 10:54 pm

tony, i've thought about that. there's a 1/8-mile track 30 minutes away from me right now, but that's really short. the problem with LSR is that it's infrequent, and takes a monstrous investment to get a course together.

i've never drag raced anything before on a strip (the last time i raced my buddy on his sportster it was in front of a cop and i got a reckless ticket for my trouble). maybe that's a solution. gearing changes are super easy with a dry belt drive. well, not really super easy, but certainly super easier.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/06/17 8:44 pm

fuel tanks are in from the welder. i can't do aluminum yet.

one for each side, breather in the cap.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

can't fit them because the fab guy only sent me two brackets and i need four. each tank holds 0.75 gallons, so i'm over the 5-litre minimum required by loring.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/07/17 4:19 am

petcocks on order as well.
Posted By: BrizzoBrit

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/07/17 9:43 am

HB.
I was disappointed thinking I was going to be missing your interesting posts but something more vintage would be even more cool. Keep it coming!
Posted By: Triless

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/07/17 10:08 am

I'll give you the drum, Brizzo, Tony will always have something interesting. He is an indefatigable bloke !
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/07/17 10:13 am

Kevin, I have the same fuel caps on my double Triumph and was not convinced the vent was adequate for the fuel flow needed....The tapped the caps and ran in screws, Then vented the tank as seen using 1/4 inch steel brake tubing and hoses.The petcocks are 3/8 inch ball valves, The double is A class with no fuel tank capacity limitations....My new tanks on the MPG650 bike are similar...The 650 bike used to have a Triumph 250 tank and drilled the stock cap vent and added a 1/4 tube and hose.....I don't know if all this is necessary... But ....it looks racy...

[Linked Image]
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/07/17 3:57 pm

is that a pingel kill switch you're using? i still have the old lucas 6CA point set to ground the magneto.

i was originally going with just one-inch NPT pipe plugs for filler caps, but found these at bungking. i agree the vents look small and easily plugged. but i think i can pop out the little sintered filter and just drill the holes oversize. the welder want to put in little standpipes with an ATV ant-flow vent, but i opted for a simple hole.

Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/07/17 5:24 pm

Originally Posted by Triless
I'll give you the drum, Brizzo, Tony will always have something interesting. He is an indefatigable bloke !


Oh, I have something interesting in the works but it won't be a Triumph or a race bike.....A 1920's board track racer ,some sort of V twin in the traditional style but but capable of minimal street use...


Kevin...My 650 bike has reproduction Triumph petcocks , one for each carb, no crossover tube..it's been adequate on the 1-1/2 mile..
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/07/17 6:45 pm

Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike


Kevin...My 650 bike has reproduction Triumph petcocks , one for each carb, no crossover tube..it's been adequate on the 1-1/2 mile..


i had my tanks done with 3/8-inch bungs, so i'm using harley stuff. two bungs there, so i can put in a crossover if i feel like it or move the petcocks from the back to the middle for clearance.
Posted By: linker48x

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/07/17 6:48 pm

Hi, here's a couple thoughts on gearing, intake and exhaust length, based on my own 25 years of experience with a T140 AHRMA Sportsman 750 road racer, very built motor, mid 60's hp--my experience, not yours, your results may vary.

First, on the gearing, I generally run as base road race gearing the equivalent of 20:46, or with stock 2:1 primary, 4.6:1 overall ratio, and it will get to 72-7300 rpm in 5th just about everywhere I race, even at Miller East, where you enter a short 1/8+ mile straight at say, 50 mph. Sometimes it is just a bit tapped out, but I like this gearing because it leaves you with a good raceable second gear, and not too big a gap to third. At fast tracks like Daytona, I use the equivalent of 20:43, 4.3:1, but everything has to be right and fresh to get it to 7300-7500, high 120's approaching 130. I'm a big guy so I don't tuck in very well, though, you may find it easier to top 130 than I. I am using slightly smaller tires than you, 18 inch 25.5 or so in diameter road race tires, so a 19 inch, or a taller 18 inch rear tire would be a bit taller gearing. I said "equivalent of 20:46" because I use a Newby belt drive which is not 2:1, and I use smaller sprockets, because I want to minimize the amount of heavy chain on the bike. The smallest sprocket you can get for a 5 speed is 17, and I also machine them down to use a lighter 520 chain, and a dirt track quick change rear hub which has many, many gearing choices.

On the intake length, many years ago when I built this bike, I talked to a bunch of dirt track tuners, all of whom said to use lots of intake length, so I added rubber tubes to the intake in various lengths over the years, like, say, 9 1/2 inches from the intake valve entry into the port to the needle jet, and sometimes much more. What I found out over time from my own experience was for top speed, the shorter the intake, the faster my bike went, and the longer intakes seemed to be better for mid range on a dirt track rather than top speed. I ended up with the VM36 Mikunis more or less against the ends of the aluminum MAP Mikuni manifolds, joined with rubber tubes. I never shortened the manifolds but that might also work, don't know. Never tried Amal Mk IIs, but I have been told they work well.

Looking at your bike, I noticed also the length of the pipes and megaphones. Jack Wilson told me to use a 1 3/4 TT pipe, 29 inch around the outside of the bend, with a 13 inch to 3 1/2 dia, then a reverse cone to 2 1/2, for max speed. It did not pull off the corners well, it stumbled and had megaphonitis that I could never tune out, but it certainly worked up on top, and started to run at about 5000 and pulled hard up to 7500+. I have since added a couple inches to the head pipe, and a 4 inch muffler core section to the outlet, which works way better on a road race track, but without so much top end bias.

If this will let me I will post a pic or two here.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

For what its worth, and like I said, your results may vary.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/08/17 1:10 am

linker, there's lots in that post worth thinking about. i need to go through some of my records and then ask some questions.

first off, though, what are those tires? because of a certain BSA hornet i have to locate a set of V-rated 18 and 19 inch rubbers, the skinnier the better, i think. i don't have to lean the bike except to get off the track.

more pictures of that machine?
Posted By: Mike Baker

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/08/17 11:38 am

Hey Linker- Great looking racebike!
Long way from Alaska I know.... But it would be good to see you at Barber this year!
There are a couple of us that are racing Classic 60's 650 and we've got a plan to put a BEARS bike on the track this fall, too.
Posted By: konon

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/08/17 2:55 pm

Nice looking racer.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/08/17 3:04 pm

Originally Posted by linker48x
First, on the gearing, I generally run as base road race gearing the equivalent of 20:46, or with stock 2:1 primary, 4.6:1 overall ratio, and it will get to 72-7300 rpm in 5th just about everywhere I race, even at Miller East, where you enter a short 1/8+ mile straight at say, 50 mph.


linker, what are the actual sprockets you're using on your base road race gearing? i'm running a 40mm belt from newby which has a 36/68 tooth set on the primary, rather than the stock 29/58. on a 650 with that primary ratio and your tire, i calculate your 7300 rpm to be 131.0 mph, so i suspect you have the same primary as i do. for my machine, running a 20/46 sprocket set will theoretically give me 129.5 mph at 7300.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/08/17 3:33 pm

Hmmm, my 650 Triumph LSR bike seems to get it's best speed when it geared to run about 1000-1500 rpm less than the peak HP on the chassis dyno...I believe for all out speed where the best acceleration is not a factor you need the find the rpm representing the average of best torque and HP....In my situation to run 132 MPH at about 7050 RPM (HP peak on dyno 7150 rpm) requires a 4.28 overall ratio...This formula worked to run 128.2 MPH with 4.47 gearing....However I don't really know if the engine has enough power to run 132 and my engine is a more mild tune that other bikes so it may not work for others......
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/08/17 4:16 pm

i've never figured this overall gearing stuff out. according to my calculations, a stock four-speed with a 1:1 final, 29/58, and 19/46 runs a 4.84 final drive.

my machine was way overgeared at wilmington, and could only run 112 at 5900-- i had set it up at 4.06, with 36/68 and 20/43. wouldn't pull that with a mostly stock head and open stock pipes.

to get 131.3 mph at 7050 i need 4.14, which i can get with 21/46 (grind that clutch window . . .)

4.28 (actually 4.27) would give me 127.1mph, using 19/43.

Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/08/17 4:37 pm

Yeah, my bike has the stock 2-1 primary drive, 21 trans sprocket and 45 rear with a 26.5 inch tall rear tire...There's a bit of tire growth with bias tires that can affect the calculations...So I'm actually just under 7100 rpm


You can use 336 x gear ratio x MPH divided by tire diameter to figure RPM
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/08/17 6:10 pm

i use a spreadsheet i put together with the permanent stuff coded in for some of my machines so i could compare different changes. dunno how to put it in an online form

[Linked Image]

tire slip doesn't work right yet, but all you have to do is input gear sizes, tire circumference, and rpm to get mph estimates. there's another part of it that calculates rpm drop between shifts.
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/09/17 7:34 am

The A65 is geared a little tall Kevin
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/09/17 4:44 pm

lol, allan, that was just what was left in the entry fields from some experimenting. try these:

Originally Posted by Allan Gill
Interesting, when I first fitted the high lift cam with the really small port head, I found that with the extra torque, having the equivalent to 22:47 actually accelerated better than with 20:47. I geared the bike to 22:42 in the end, with a standard box was quite interesting and surprisingly it pulled it. 80mph at 8k rpm in first and 100mph in second at I think 6k rpm. Run out of puff for third though to get a higher speed laughing

I've settled on 19:42 at the moment (Lightning clubman gearing) this seems to be the best all rounder for these bikes in fine fettle.


22/42:

[Linked Image]

19/42:

[Linked Image]

do these entry numbers look at all reasonable for your bike? the calculated numbers don't seem to jive with your real-world experience. i got the sprocket tooth count and gear ratios out of the manuals, may not be correct.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/09/17 8:53 pm

There was a bit of humour in what I wrote, I used to ride an OIF Thunderbolt with the same gearing and it went really well.

The 36/70-18/42 that I comes out at 4.53 so close enough to call it on par with the LC overall gearing as you list above. The work I've done to it seems to give it enough torque to hold higher gearing but top end does suffer. Running 36/70-21/42 gave me a 80mph first gear and 100mph second gear at 6000 rpm, but 3rd gear just made the engine less noisy and 4th was a waste of space lol. But as an experiment was interesting. The current gearing seems most suitable for the riding im doing and works best with club ride outs etc, but taller gearing is better for motorway mile munching. The current gearing also seems to return the best top speed too.

Still need to get the final fitting of the exhaust done, which will be next weekend. Then more carb jetting. Before I can give results to compare to, but soon as I know they will be added, better still once I have fitted the data logger.

I think I measured my tyre corumfrance at 82" but this was not with weight on the floor so 81 might be more accurate.

Second gear at those revs gives around 80-85, best revs I've seen in 3rd has been 7200, that was with stock Cam on 28/58-21/47 gearing. From memory that was about 107mph. 7200 was the maximum that head would Rev to, but it did that in most gears. Seeing that 134 at 8000, makes you realise how fast PRT's bike really is!

I'm back to using Standard gearing, I took the CR out for two reasons, one to get copies made (which won't be happening now for some time) the other is when in big convoy she on run outs, CR 1st is the only gear you ever you and you end up polishing clutch plates up as your slipping it for most of the time.
Posted By: John Healy

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/09/17 9:03 pm

Quote
The A65 is geared a little tall Kevin


The last time we ran Daytona with the 750 we were running 21-36 in the rear with a stock primary. Jerry was complaining it wasn't geared tall enough for the back straight away.
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/09/17 9:11 pm

With the greatest of respect it depends what the bike is being used for, how the motor is setup and how much torque you can pull.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/09/17 9:48 pm





Originally Posted by John Healy
Quote
The A65 is geared a little tall Kevin


The last time we ran Daytona with the 750 we were running 21-36 in the rear with a stock primary. Jerry was complaining it wasn't geared tall enough for the back straight away.

Figuring a 26 inch tall rear tire and a direct high gear that's 162 MPH at a 7000 rpm....
Posted By: pushrod tom

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/10/17 12:57 pm

Interesting. I spent time a few years ago figuring the numbers but, in the end, figured it out on the track. On the Hornet we use a 'standard' Newby with 21/47. That is a bit on the tall side unless everything is working really good. I have stuck with it because this current motor likes to rev and unless everything is working really good the speed won't come anyway. On the black bike with the second gen turbo, we were geared at 22/42 with a 39/68 Newby. Best speed was 162.5 and I don't think it was revving past 7k. We also observed that the tire grows at that speed. At least 1 inch in diameter! The latest set up is 21/42. If that revs out I will be quite chuffed!!!
I think the bottom line is that you need to gear realistically in order to see how your rig behaves and then use that data to make changes. The air is a WALL! Cheers, PRT
Posted By: linker48x

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/10/17 11:24 pm

Hi, sorry for the delay in responding to the questions, I don't visit every day.

Yes, my Newby drive is 36:68, or 1.89 primary ratio. I run as a base 17:41 (4.55) or sometimes 17-40 (4.44). Part of this choice isn't top speed, it is a compromise to not make the gap between second and third too big, but with second still tall enough to use as a racing gear--a lap time type issue you LSR guys don't have to worry about. On faster tracks I gear up to 17:38 (4.22) or 17:39 (4.33). For tires I am using Dunlop KR 145's, 3.50/500-18, which are out of production and just about unobtainable anymore, about 25.3 inch diameter, just a bit smaller than the old KR 164. I am guessing these are too big for LSR.

I know some guys like to overgear and use less rpm. My bike likes to rev up and even overrev, it doesn't like to be load limited (topped out against the wind) below the power peak and it won't go as fast that way.

When John Healy first told me the gearing on his bike he gave Jerry to run at Daytona, I was sort of amazed. 21:36 is 3.42:1, which is a lot of gear. My guess is his bike makes in the low 70's hp. Mine makes low to mid 60's, big difference. The only other Triumph twin I ever saw go as fast as his at Daytona was the black Big D bike that Rob Tuluie rode in the early or mid 90's there. They were both jets. John knows a ton about Triumphs, and he has been a huge help to me, and I listen whenever he offers advice, he obviously builds a faster bike than some guy in Alaska LOL.

Just for reference, my bike has 36 VM Mikunis, ported, big PM valves, Megacycle 5-1060 cams (mild), JE 11.5 pistons .040 over, Carillos, Nourish crank (the rods and crank are heavy and slow the bike down, but they don't break), Newby drive, and a Rex Caunt twin plug electronic ignition.

And by the way, hi John, hope all is well, I am headed out to California Saturday for Willow and Sears, and will spend the first part of next week rebuilding my two stroke.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/11/17 12:31 am

just so i don't lose it and forget, i measured the pipes i used last on my bike

38 inches around the curve, end to end (no added distance for exhaust port in this number, but one inch overlap on the meg, so say, 37 inches. stock 1.5-inch diameter.

15.75-inch megaphone, going from 1.5 to 4.0 inches, then 3/4-inch reverse cone down to 3.5 inches, total meg 16.25.

the megs took my morgo street bike from 114 to 117, no other changes except going from 210 to 240 on the mains, 34mm VM mikunis. ran the straight pipes without the megs on the LSR this last autumn, as there isn't room for them yet because the shifter hangs straight down to clear the kickstart. may ditch that kickstart just so i can fit the megs.

i'm going to toss the whole exhaust and fit 1-5/8-inch dual pipes, test with plain extensions and with megs.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/11/17 10:22 am

Originally Posted by pushrod tom
Interesting. I spent time a few years ago figuring the numbers but, in the end, figured it out on the track. On the Hornet we use a 'standard' Newby with 21/47. That is a bit on the tall side unless everything is working really good. I have stuck with it because this current motor likes to rev and unless everything is working really good the speed won't come anyway. On the black bike with the second gen turbo, we were geared at 22/42 with a 39/68 Newby. Best speed was 162.5 and I don't think it was revving past 7k. We also observed that the tire grows at that speed. At least 1 inch in diameter! The latest set up is 21/42. If that revs out I will be quite chuffed!!!
I think the bottom line is that you need to gear realistically in order to see how your rig behaves and then use that data to make changes. The air is a WALL! Cheers, PRT

Tom, would your turbo bike go faster if you had a running start instead of a standing start? Or is a 1-1/2 miles enough?
Yes tire growth...My double engine bike has ZR rated radial tires...The growth is controlled by the design and not enough to be a factor as seen on modern sport bikes with insane top speeds and cycle parts very close to the tires..
And pushing a naked frame bike into the wind is always a struggle..About 120-130 HP is needed to get near 160 MPH based on watching the A class Harleys and talking to the riders..
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/11/17 1:21 pm

i want to watch your double eat those harleys.
Posted By: pushrod tom

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/11/17 1:59 pm

I think that 1.5 miles is enough space and in some cases, too much space. The extra .5 places demands that you don't see on the mile. My bike went faster (one time) at Willmington than Maine. We never quite cracked 160 up there. Some of our recorded times were on the decel because of fuel starvation or loss of nitrous pressure. So, the new set up is not as powerful on the dyno as before but seems to be very steady and I am moderately confident that it will pull hard all the way. Hopefully we will find out in a couple of weeks! PRT

PS whether we race or not in July I want to get up there to keep an eye on you guys!
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/11/17 2:10 pm

Originally Posted by kevin roberts
i want to watch your double eat those harleys.


I hope so but we shall see...The double goes on the dyno May 4th....If it makes about 115 rear wheel HP then that may convert into something close to 160 mph.
Originally Posted by pushrod tom


PS whether we race or not in July I want to get up there to keep an eye on you guys!


Tom , both "my" Triumphs will be there but as it stands now, I won't be there...If my rider needs help I told him to ask Kevin... wink
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/11/17 3:34 pm

send along a box with spares for whatever is likely to break. i'll have three hundred pounds of tools, probably, and british cycle supply is right there
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/11/17 4:11 pm

I don't have any spare engines grin The Pazon Smartfire on the 650 bike has just decided to leave the building....It's been kicking back on starting back despite being properly static timed and has 13 volt while running...I checked the timing with a strobe and it idles at near 38 degrees and near 60 when reved But sounds just fine....Retarded the timing and it still kicks back....and won't start. Rechecked withe timing marks, and a different strobe, same result...Just love this electronic stuff... bigt
Posted By: John Healy

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/11/17 4:50 pm

HB PM me and I will see what we can sort out for you!
John
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/12/17 12:39 am

Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
I don't have any spare engines


kill switches, toggles, an extra control cable, weird pre-unit special tools, gaskets, special oil, inner tubes, master links, whatever wears out in a harley starter, just the cheapie stuff.

a genuine blow-up is terminal, but i had to leave wilmington this spring after one completed run on my machine because i didn't have a spare magneto rotor-- a twenty-dollar part.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/12/17 10:16 am

Originally Posted by kevin roberts
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
I don't have any spare engines


kill switches, toggles, an extra control cable, weird pre-unit special tools, gaskets, special oil, inner tubes, master links, whatever wears out in a harley starter, just the cheapie stuff.

a genuine blow-up is terminal, but i had to leave wilmington this spring after one completed run on my machine because i didn't have a spare magneto rotor-- a twenty-dollar part.



That's a long list....All I ever took to any of the 4 races including Maine was safety wire, electrical tape, spark plugs, spare battery and jets...Actually I did think of a spare starter motor..

The Canadian vendor British Cycle Supply has a US warehouse just a few miles from Loring. They said the phones will be manned during the race days to assist any racers......
Posted By: pushrod tom

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/12/17 12:31 pm

Actually, BCS is located on the base. Nice to know. Usually we are to busy to drop by and say hi.
Posted By: linker48x

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/12/17 8:41 pm

Just to complete something I mentioned above--Here's a couple pics of the short pipes Jack Wilson told me to use about 25 years ago, one sitting still, one in motion and leaned over.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

These short pipes were used by a lot of AHRMA Triumph racers back in the 90's. (Nowadays there aren't very many Triumphs out in AHRMA F750 and Sportsman 750, but folks use an array of 2 into 1's, longer single pipes, etc.) Note that the factory TT pipes are 43 inch around the outside of the bends. These are standard TT pipes cut off at the end of the bend, 29 inch head pipes,with a 14 inch megaphone on them, 43 inches total, same length as the original TT pipes. The megaphone is 13 inch to 3 1/2 dia, then a 1 inch reverse cone to 2 1/2 inches. Although the original TT pipes give a nice power band, these with the megaphones are too short, too pipey, I think, for my meager talents on a road race course--at full throttle they stumble up to 4500 or so and then begin to really pull strongly at 5000, and the engine spins up to 7500 or so very quickly, and it has above 50 ft-lbs torque from 5000-7200. In the pics above, you can see the up pipes I made to replace these identical but are a bit longer, 32 inch head pipes, and something I think really helped, a 2 1/2 inch muffler core 4 inches long, held in a 3 1/2 inch straight section with a flat end and packing--I think this eased the flow at the back and helped kill the megaphonitis at lower rpm. Now this is a sort of tractor, power starts at or just below 4000, and pulls up to 7000, with just a little trailing off as you get there. This works for road racing much better, but not so sure you guys running flat out would agree that you need such a broad spread of power. I am curious how the original 43 inch set would work for you guys, for straightaway running. Pretty easy for you to try, and switch out.

By the way, I don't remember the measurements he told me, but John Healy's bike uses much longer pipes, he told me he thinks these are too short.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/12/17 11:17 pm

i can try that. i already have enough stuff to make up something similar.

who knows?
Posted By: linker48x

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/13/17 2:34 am

I think I have two pairs, one in California with the bike, one here, set up to mount with springs over 1 3/4 spigots. Back mounts for a Champion frame but modifiable.
Posted By: linker48x

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/13/17 2:34 am

I think I have two pairs, one in California with the bike, one here, set up to mount with springs over 1 3/4 spigots. Back mounts for a Champion frame but modifiable.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/16/17 11:19 pm

almost ready for july!

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/19/17 10:40 pm

finally found the source for the 5/16-24 pre-drilled jam nuts for triumph conical and disc front fork caps. these are a real PITA to drill out for safety wire, and there 4 of the buggers on each leg.

http://aircraftproducts.wicksaircraft.com/viewitems/aircraft-nuts/drilled-jam-nut

[Linked Image]

sorry out of stock on the right ones at the moment, but i bought a handful here before.

lots of other interesting stuff. they even have a motorcycle/aviation oil and grease section that would be great to look through for the next motor oil debate here.
Posted By: pushrod tom

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/20/17 1:05 pm

Kevin, You are a master of suspense!! We want to hear how it runs! PRT
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/20/17 1:16 pm

lol

me too, tom.

i still work 12 or 16 hours per day, so i can only hit this puppy on weekends. i need to clay the pistons and build pipes. then i'm ready to dyno it.

brand new stinking V-rated tires arrived yesterday. my H rated tires were still brand new, too, but you made them illegal with your hornet.

dont need any more parts. just more time.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 04/30/17 11:05 pm

clayed the new rob hall head. couldn't find the clay i used last time, so i tried playdough instead. no go, the stuff is springy and expands back after you squeeze it. gave that to the kids and finally found some oil-based modeling clay.

no problems at all with the domes. didn't think there would be, but checked anyway:

[Linked Image]

lots of clearance on the exhaust side:

[Linked Image]

left exhaust about 0.120

[Linked Image]

right exhaust at 0.100

[Linked Image]

left intake at 0.065

[Linked Image]

right intake also at 0.065

[Linked Image]

i'm using a copper base gasket and copper rocker box gaskets too, each at 0.021 inches. i could tighten up the clearances by leaving the rocker box gaskets off, and i may do that. have to think a bit. i may do a repeat tomorrow to check the right intake valve to valve pocket clearances, as they seem a bit tight with these oversize valves. worked okay with the others, but i've changed things.
Posted By: Mike Baker

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/01/17 10:52 am

I've been told that .060" is a good place to be for valve/ piston interface.
Have you checked for cam/ flywheel clearance? Again I've been told to have at least .060.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/01/17 12:59 pm

.060 on valves has worked for me even when the rider overran the cams. Cam to flywheel on my bikes is about 45 to 50 thousands
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/01/17 1:49 pm

cam to flywheel in this setup was so great i didnt even measure it. about an eighth of an inch. the billet crank flywheel is much smaller than stock.

ran fine to 8000 rpm several times last summer .not on purpose, though.
Posted By: koncretekid

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/01/17 2:11 pm

Don't forget to clay the squish band area around the edge. You can probably get away with .035".
[Linked Image]
Tom
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/01/17 4:45 pm

My 650 Triumph modified production bike quench looks like this with MAP 10.5 pistons...Between .039 .032 depending on where it's measured...The dual engine Triumph is a bit tighter. I don't use cylinder base gaskets..........

[Linked Image]
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/01/17 5:59 pm

i have a clearance issue with tbe tappet blocks. i need to measure that again tonight. easy to do.

i raised them up a bit with valve spring shims, plus the tappet blocks i used have deeper recesses for tbe tappet foot. the base gasket helps by 0.021, but i'd like to delete it.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/01/17 11:15 pm

got home and found these in the mailbox from dave madigan

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

T120 adjustable pushrod tubes. beautifully made. have everything i need now to put the motor back together.
Posted By: konon

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/02/17 10:35 am

Nice ! They should make things easier.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/06/17 2:52 am

got my exhaust system from cone engineering:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

well, it needs a bit of work, but it's all there. 1 5/8 stainless main tubes, mild steel 1 3/4 for the initial exhaust tubes, because they have 1.65-inches ID to fit over the exhaust stubs. close enough in diameter for me to weld them together.

i'll be duplicating the stock two-into-two system, mostly, except it will extend farther from the head to clear the ARD magneto, and drop farther below the frame to clear the rearsets.

actual length to be determined next month, for the july meet. then whether or not to use megaphones for september.
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/06/17 7:07 am

Your going to have a pipe going horizontally?

I'll see if I have any photos of what we used to make when I used to make exhausts
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/06/17 4:03 pm

the stock and aftermarket pipes begin a radiused turn right after the exhaust stubs on the head. since the ARD sticks forward, and the mag rotates out another 5 degrees for timing, it interferes with the right pipe. you can either bend the right pipe to the left, like the old alphabet 2-into-1:

[Linked Image]

or you can extend the stubs out from the head an inch or so. the stock radius on the upper exhaust bend is about 3.75 inches, and the pipe people only had tighter bends in 2.5 inches, so this is the solution to the clearance problem.

there was an interesting TR6 at wilmington last time that used a 2-into-1 to go 116:

[Linked Image]

we didn't have a lot of time to compare notes, but his system looked like a standard TT version with a collector at the end.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/06/17 7:40 pm

Would a set of TT pipes not clear the mag?

I looked for a photo of the balance piece but unfortunately I don't have one.

We used to have 2 sections of pipe each one we bent at 3 points, like a chicane in its shape, then cut an elipse out of the belly portion on both then weld together, you get a very smooth X flow and it works well, you can adjust the exit of the X to suit if you have silencers or want to run straight pipes under the motor.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/06/17 8:08 pm

good question, allan. i could probably make a set of TT tubes clear the mag, as even a stock set of pipes works if i don't push them all the way onto the stubs. but all the TT pipes i can buy are 1.75-inches in diameter.

the man i wanted to do the head for me originally specified 1-5/8-inch pipes. 1.50 was too small, 1.75 was too big. that's why i ended up ordering a set of do-it-yourself 1-5/8-inch pipes in the first place. no big deal, though, as i need to learn how to weld pipes decently anyway.

no balance tube between the pipes, currently. i'm way not good enough to weld a T-section. i do understand what you're saying about linking the pipes into a large X-shape, but for the first iteration of this exhaust i want to keep it simple and separate the two sides.

turns out that the 1.65-inch ID mild steel pipes are a slip fit over the 1-5/8-inch OD tubes i'l use for the whole system. so i won't have to build extensions for the dyno, i can just build a single tube and slide it up and down like a trombone to tune the length.

Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/06/17 9:13 pm

My bike's first dyno runs after the head work was with a home made two into designed from the usually accurate Pipe Max computer design program...1-1/2 inch pipes 29 inches long, 2-1/2 x 17 inch collector.....A bit more midrange and a bit less on top end compared to 1-1/2 x 38 straight pipes..I didn't spend much time on it so there might have been more there.....Be interesting to see how your machine runs with the pipes...

[Linked Image]
Posted By: John Healy

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/06/17 9:17 pm

Kevin, to align pipes for welding take two 36"ish lengths (if you are at a bend you can shorten the wires) of welding wire and bend them into a "U" in the middle. Make the "U" so it will just slip into the pipe. Put one of the welding rods into the pipe 6-8" one way and the other in the other way and slide the pipes together. You will be able to align the pipes perfectly for the weld. To remove take another length of welding wire and bend the end into a hook. You will think you are an expert!
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/06/17 10:23 pm

Good tip John!

I have also used standard hose clamps with 3 areas of the grooves removed to TIG weld the joint. You can also used some small channels and a pair jaw clamps to hold the alignment.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/07/17 12:25 am

Originally Posted by John Healy
Kevin, to align pipes for welding take two 36"ish lengths (if you are at a bend you can shorten the wires) of welding wire and bend them into a "U" in the middle.


Originally Posted by Blown Income
You can also used some small channels and a pair jaw clamps to hold the alignment.


shoot, both of these are good ideas.

i have been trying to figure out the best way to do that.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 05/31/17 2:31 pm

stuff going on

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

engine goes back in this afternoon, now that i have an oil tank and a vestigial fender to keep the grit out of the carb mouths. then tanks and pipes.

i thought i had a 21-tooth sprocket for this motor, but the only one i have is for a five speed. need that, as 21/46 adds 4 mph to the 19/43 at 7000 and gives me a nominal 130.4. i don't expect to go near that fast, but i need to keep the option open. one's coming from lowbrow, but i'll have to grind the trapdoor hole with the motor on the bike later.

i can't believe i spent 40 years working on motorcycles without a bike lift. this thing is a lifesaver.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/15/17 12:07 am

fit the tanks with chunks of wood and ten feet of duct tape:

[Linked Image]

but they went on okay and everything clears:

[Linked Image]

got to move the petcocks, though. when they're in the back, the one on the right bumps the plug wire boot. but i had each tank done with an extra bung smack in the middle, so i can just put them both a bit forward and then everything clears.

[Linked Image]

putting the tanks below the frame tube lets me drop my head below the top triple clamp, down to the left.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

before, i had to ride with my chin sitting on the top of that honking great tank, which was great for symmetry but lousy for wind resistance. i have to lower the tach now, because the only way i can see it is to look through the fork legs, between the triple clamps.

pipes this weekend.


Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/15/17 10:39 am

Time is getting short, get cracking on that bike grin There's rules about tach and or speedo location....
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/15/17 11:36 pm

there is nothing left to do but build the pipes and put the primary back in. and clean the carbs, which is not hard.

then it's a runner. should start it this coming week.

the tach can be relocated in ten minutes, because i've had it both ways and all i have to do is swap brackets that i already have made. but at least at ECTA, the inspectors were pretty tolerant about that stuff. i've seen several bikes that were technically illegal in unimportant ways. i wouldn't contest a record over the tach mount, personally.

the bigger issue was the tanks. i had somebody else weld the tanks, and i specified dimensions that would put the two tanks at 2.88 litres each, comfortably over the 5-litre minimum rule, but when i got them they were undersize. i ended up buying a set of graduated cylinders and a burette so i could be sure, and they measure out at . . . 2.610 liters, each. 220cc over the minimum, and legal.

after i learn how to weld aluminum, that won't happen again.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/16/17 12:18 am

Loring isn't to fussy about gauges either. In fact I got the impression so long as the machine looks safe it's good enough... I calculated the tank volume by math..and never measured the actual volume...My rider made them from steel tubing and domed end caps were inexpensive Ebay items..But he warped the threaded filler necks from excessive welding heat.....Then he had to buy a 50 buck tap to fix it..
When you stop at my place we'll start that bad boy and drill up and down the road a few times..
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/16/17 9:32 am

Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike

When you stop at my place we'll start that bad boy and drill up and down the road a few times..


ooooh

how straight is your road?
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/16/17 10:01 am

Originally Posted by kevin roberts
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike

When you stop at my place we'll start that bad boy and drill up and down the road a few times..


ooooh

how straight is your road?


It's straight for about three miles.....Of course there's sections with hills, with houses, good possibility of eight wheel JD tractors with 20 foot wide implements....But I can't remember seeing the police... grin......
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/16/17 2:24 pm

no big tractors here, but a fair number of amish. so youll crest a blind hill and tbere will be a hay wagon in your lane. about 8 feet wide and 15 feet high, driven by a nine-year-old. . .

got to be careful
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/17/17 11:37 pm

lol

i had great hopes that my pipes would be great-looking: straight straight parts, sexy curved parts, flowing welds . . .

stark reality intrudes, however. half-way done, taking a break. the cone-engineering pre-bent do-it-yourself tubes are really nice, although they only have a 2.5-inch radius in the 1-5/8-inch tube. but that can be worked with.

[Linked Image]

they sell a cutting guide that lets you make the exact bends you want, so long as you know what angle you need. i needed more clearance than stock pipes provide for the ARD magneto. stock pipes bump the casting, so i extended the tube from the exhaust stubs about 3/4-inch extra, and then bent it down at the same angle as stock. my ARD is modified so that the magneto rotates about 10 degrees for timing, and stock pipes get in the way unless you scoot them way out on the stubs before clamping them down.

[Linked Image]

i used a couple of cheap yardsticks bolted together as a giant pair of dividers to find what i needed, then measured the yardsticks with a protractor, and cut the tubes.

[Linked Image]

to join the straight bits, i took some advice from people here and clamped the pipes in a piece of angle iron. then i could spot weld the tubes in a straight line.

[Linked Image]

the result is straight, with elegant lines, and goes exactly where i want it . . . and shows off my absolutely shitty welding. i'm way primitive on that.

[Linked Image]

but it fits, and the pipe is clean of welds where i want to slip on the 1.75-inch extensions at the dyno. i also arranged the tail section so that a reverse cone megaphone will fit between the tire and the shifter lever, for the next tuning iteration over th ewinter.

[Linked Image]

i'll just try to make sure that the right side isn't the one people can see. hopefully the left side will look better. i wanted more time to practice welding tubing, but kevin don't got no more time.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/18/17 12:36 am

They have these things called angle grinders and flap discs...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/18/17 2:15 am

i tried to make it a little bit prettier on the bench grinder, then i remembered a bottle of wild turkey in the house and left it until tomorrow.

but to be honest, i guess i don't much care about conventional pretty. my number one son looked at my exquisitely-planned fuel tanks, and said, wow, those are really ugly . . .

wait until you see my new seat, though! stay tuned.
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/18/17 7:33 am

I wouldn't grind those welds back Kevin, the weld doesn't look to have had enough time to penetrate the tube, and done as a ring as opposed to the fallen pennies aproach, not grinding it back will maintain some strength. Otherwise looking good
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/18/17 12:18 pm

maybe so, allan. in my way-limited welding experience long ago, i got to where i could maintain a good puddle with a gas welder, but this wire feed thing is different. and these pipes are so thin that they burn through if i'm not careful, and so i've been erring on the side of lots ofmetal.

i went down to the local muffler shop and traded a bag of chocolate barsfor a bucket of tubing scraps, and ive been practicing with that. still a long way to go on it.

hopefully the othe side will look better.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/18/17 11:15 pm

here's that angle-measuring thing from cone engineering:

[Linked Image]

you can't see it, but there are faint lines etched into the metal that make it into a big protractor. you put the standard U-bend into the device, snap out the little pointer thing and set it up over the tube, and then use the edge of the pointer as a rule to mark out the exact angle you need. there's only one radius for each diameter of tube. for the 1-5/8-inch tube here, the radius is 2.5 inches. that's lots less than the stock triumph pipes, which have radii more like 3 and 4 inches. i can use these to mark perfect angles, but then i get messed up because i can't cut perfectly across the tubes with a hacksaw, and i end up with gaps that make the welder burn holes into the edges. i bought one of these as an experiment in tube cutting, but it's way slow on steel pipes and hard to use inside a bend:

[Linked Image]

^^^not so successful, although the cuts are perfect when you finally get them made. i suppose the solution is either a bandsaw or lots more practice with the hacksaw.

anyway, pipes are done:

[Linked Image]

welds suck, but the next ones will be better. these work out to be 51 inches long. i'll cut them back to about 34 or so, and then make extensions out of the 1-3/4 inch tubing i have. it slips right on over the 1-5/8 stuff, and i have enough to make telescoping extensions to 46 inches, just using one tube that slides up and down the tail pipe.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/18/17 11:32 pm

damn

i just priced bandsaws from harbor freight, and a light-duty one isn't as expensive as i thought.

maybe i should consider making pipes for the trident, since nobody does a three-into-one anymore for them.
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/19/17 6:40 am

We used to use a big chop saw, big circular disk, that made lightnwork and nice edges, when I made mine I used an angle grinder, used tape as a marker then drew a line next to the tape. Remove the tape and that was my cutting line.

A 1mm (.040") gap is sufficient between the joint to weld between, ideally the thickness of the wire, most wires are 0.8mm, and if you get a bigger gap, instead of welding across it, weld into the corner of the previous weld and one of the pipe ends, then do the same on the other side, and keep working inwards. If the gap is too big, I used to start from the other side and work back towards it, then the larger hole fills up better.

I used 1.5mm thick pipe when I made my exhaust, if yours is thinner then I can see how it is so hard to not burn through.
Posted By: Mark Parker

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/19/17 9:06 am

When I make engine/header pipes that go under the motor I get pipes bent and use only two sections for each, joined between the bends. I get the local exhaust guy to bend sections from stainless pipe to a curve I can make from wire. The curve is more gradual than what you have at the top bend. It's not possible to get a full sweeping pipe from his bender, but I can adjust that weld joint between the bends by angle cutting slightly and aiming the pipe exactly where I want it to go. Which may work better making a 3into1.

If your Trident is a T150 using the stock frame, the headers will fit best with the center pipe going to the left of the frame tube. With all headers aimed a bit to the left and angling back to the right under the motor. I used 1-1/2" tube into a triangular arranged collector with a fairly big tail pipe and muffler.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/19/17 10:30 am

You don't need a band saw....I have this exact pipe cutter and it cuts quick and clean on 16-18 gauge pipe...It leaves a slightly rolled in edge that's easiley reamed with a files or burr in cordless drill...
.
[Linked Image]
Your radius are tighter than what's usually seen on a Brit bike but not tighter than seen on some engines make far more power per cubic inch...Only a back to back test would confirm any difference..
I join the pipes before the bend and try to not make another joint closer than 12 inches after the bend...

I made the pipes on the Triumph ,what you call the "the fastest 650 unit production based Triumph in the country" grin You can see heat staining where the pipes join..Nothing fancy....Bottom radius looks about the same as yours..

[Linked Image]

The pipes I made for the double sweep back because they are on the sides of the frame..

[Linked Image]

Grind the weld bead on your pipes,if it looks weak re weld...
Posted By: Andy Higham

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/19/17 8:14 pm

I guess you have used MIG to weld the pipes. Only stick is less appropriate, gas or TIG will give much better results and if you use TIG and use backing gas, the inside will be pretty too
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/19/17 11:08 pm

all good suggestions. i'm using this little wire welder with CO2/argon gas:

[Linked Image]

i do have an ancient lincoln stick welder, but at the moment the pipes made with the wire unit seem to be okay. the welds are blobby, but the penetration is good on the ones i've dissected. mostly the issue seems to be aesthetic. i'll experiment with other stuff after this july meet. i've already learned enough about the pipes that there are some things i want to do differently.

i'm stuck with tight 2.5-inch radius bends, because cone engineering doesn't do multiple radii in a given pipe size. the actual angles of the tubes are the same as stock: upper bend is 75 degrees, lower bend is 98. but the transitions are sharper because of the small radius. on the stock pipes, the upper radius is about 3 inches, and the lower one is about 4. (i know because i trial-fit various cans and so forth until i found things that fit).

i'm using the 1-5/8-inch pipe diameter reccommended by leo goff, and that causes some difficulties, because i can't just modify pipes i can buy. the standard triumph stuff is always either 1.5 or 1.75. i may end up ditching the intermediates simply because i can't get a sweeping bend with tubes in that diameter. what i've seen from american muffler shops is that they make bends by crushing the pipe on the inside curve, and i'm looking for mandrel-bent tubing.
Posted By: Jerry Roy

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/20/17 2:26 am

You might try these guys and ask about larger radius bends.

http://www.hanksvillehotrods.com/Services/MandrelBentHeadersandExhaust/tabid/556/Default.aspx

CZ
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/20/17 12:26 pm

Kevin, Summit Racing has more than a few 1-5/8 mandrel bends in radius greater than 2-1/2 inch.. Just search their online catalog for exhaust tubing ,then go to 1-5/8 and then to mandel bends...They have very fast delivery and a huge warehouse in Ohio.....
But...maybe just run what you have at this point in time?
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/20/17 5:14 pm

Kevin,

The exhaust doesnt look too bad for using a 120v MIG Welder. I recently just finished up my new stepped pipes with s.s material from Cone. I agree their radius are a little on the tight side but at least you are not limited on space like I am with a fairing.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: DMadigan

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/20/17 5:33 pm

Woolfaircraft.com has 1-5/8" tubes in 1-5/8" to 8" centreline radius. I made this with their tube and Cone's mufflers.
[Linked Image]
A set of saddle clamps hold the tubes and allow access all around the tube for welding.
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Blown Income

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/20/17 5:41 pm

^^^That looks Nice^^^ I like the alignment tool also.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/20/17 8:50 pm

[quote=DMadigan]Woolfaircraft.com has 1-5/8" tubes in 1-5/8" to 8" centreline radius. I made this with their tube and Cone's mufflers.
[Linked Image]
A set of saddle clamps hold the tubes and allow access all around the tube for welding.
[Linked Image][/quote

Looks like a 20 inch primary and about 16 collector/megaphone...I had a guy with a Pipemax exhaust design program come up with something very similar for my Triumph 650 LSR bike...
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/20/17 10:05 pm

I'm not sure why the big ooh ahh is for mandril bends on none tight corners. I used to make exhaust under the powerflow name, powerflow were the only ones who didn't use mandril bends (unless the bend was sharp) on book their brand exhausts were the best performing on the market.

The inside of the bend is dead space, think of a river and how it meanders, the outer bend is deeper as the river cuts into the side, it flows faster, the inner bend fills with silt because that is where the flow is slower, same principle here.

For my clubmans style copy pipe 2-1, I sent the short section off to a pipe bending company and asked them to make me two copies, just longer than my example. Not mandril bends but run very well.
Posted By: DMadigan

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/21/17 3:30 am

That bike was a special for Dan Macias' son-in-law. Dan had an 800cc cheater motor and Shell frame sitting around for years that he was always going to finish for himself but never got around to. Mike wanted it to look like the flat trackers of the day but still rideable on the street which is the reason for the modifications.
Sure, modern exhausts are better but so is everything else compared to these old bikes.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/21/17 10:33 am

Originally Posted by Allan Gill
I'm not sure why the big ooh ahh is for mandril bends on none tight corners. I used to make exhaust under the powerflow name, powerflow were the only ones who didn't use mandril bends (unless the bend was sharp) on book their brand exhausts were the best performing on the market.

The inside of the bend is dead space, think of a river and how it meanders, the outer bend is deeper as the river cuts into the side, it flows faster, the inner bend fills with silt because that is where the flow is slower, same principle here.

For my clubmans style copy pipe 2-1, I sent the short section off to a pipe bending company and asked them to make me two copies, just longer than my example. Not mandril bends but run very well.


I have never seen anything but mandrel bent exhaust on successful racing vehicles.If your statement was universally true, tuners looking for any advantage would not use mandrel bends.. And to be honest,mandrel bends just look better...That's why I'm suggesting grinding the welds for a smoother appearance where the exhaust is in plain sight..
Posted By: Mark Parker

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/21/17 11:55 am

Dave's pipes look lovely. Practicality for me is non mandrel bends, does one type lose HP I don't know. Size and configuration I would think have more significance. Some race pipes are sometimes flattened or shaped up near the port to combat reversion. I would have thought a bit of reversion caused by big pipes would be livable with LSR bikes if they give more top end bias. I guess it depends what the engine's breathing will support.

I'm interested to know if 2 into 1s can be configured to give more top end than two single pipes? What have people found?

Triples seem best with 3 into1s.

With twins I remember Troy Corser racing an Aprilia twin in superbikes and it wasn't competitive till they replaced a 2into1 with a twin system. The twin system was connected though. Why I think an 'X' connector twin system would be advantageous.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/21/17 12:39 pm

Originally Posted by Mark Parker
Dave's pipes look lovely. Practicality for me is non mandrel bends, does one type lose HP I don't know. Size and configuration I would think have more significance. Some race pipes are sometimes flattened or shaped up near the port to combat reversion. I would have thought a bit of reversion caused by big pipes would be livable with LSR bikes if they give more top end bias. I guess it depends what the engine's breathing will support.

I'm interested to know if 2 into 1s can be configured to give more top end than two single pipes? What have people found?

Triples seem best with 3 into1s.

With twins I remember Troy Corser racing an Aprilia twin in superbikes and it wasn't competitive till they replaced a 2into1 with a twin system. The twin system was connected though. Why I think an 'X' connector twin system would be advantageous.



360 degree Brit LSR bikes have a variety of exhaust styles..But it appears that 1-1/2 -1-5/8 diameter individual pipes with or without megaphones is the most popular on the fastest bikes...
I tried a two into one on my 650 LSR Triumph....I fabricated it to the Pipemax computer design...1-1/2 x 19 inch primaries into a 2-1/2 x 17 inch collector....On the Superflow dyno it made slight more midrange but a bit less on top end than the individual 1-1/2 x 38 inch straight pipes...I didn't have the resources to carry on more testing on the two into one....I believe a lot of the benefits are lost to the 360 degree firing order...
1-3/4 pipes for a cylinder making less than 40 HP is larger than auto tuners use on engines making a lot more power...I don't know if it's a fair comparison however..Generally, most exhaust "experts" claim a larger than necessary diameter pipe will add about 1% on top end for a loss of 10% in the midrange.. Of course some engines are more tolerant of pipe size than others

X pipes for auto tuning are used primarily on V8 engines to improve lower speed power. on vehicles with full exhaust systems..In drag racing that's all about top end and they use anything to gain an advantage, X pipes aren't used on collector type headers...
My 96 Ducati 900 daily rider makes about 68 HP at the rear wheel and the stock exhaust has 42 MM head pies with an X pipe. I believe the X pipe is to increase mid range and offer better flow with "restrictive" stock mufflers......Ducati racing exhausts use a modifed X pipe ..Seems to be what's used on most V twin racers...


Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/21/17 6:58 pm

Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Originally Posted by Allan Gill
I'm not sure why the big ooh ahh is for mandril bends on none tight corners. I used to make exhaust under the powerflow name, powerflow were the only ones who didn't use mandril bends (unless the bend was sharp) on book their brand exhausts were the best performing on the market.

The inside of the bend is dead space, think of a river and how it meanders, the outer bend is deeper as the river cuts into the side, it flows faster, the inner bend fills with silt because that is where the flow is slower, same principle here.

For my clubmans style copy pipe 2-1, I sent the short section off to a pipe bending company and asked them to make me two copies, just longer than my example. Not mandril bends but run very well.


I have never seen anything but mandrel bent exhaust on successful racing vehicles.If your statement was universally true, tuners looking for any advantage would not use mandrel bends.. And to be honest,mandrel bends just look better...That's why I'm suggesting grinding the welds for a smoother appearance where the exhaust is in plain sight..



Have you ever seen a bike not using mandrel bends? Your right that mandrel bends look better but it doesn't mean it performs any better, a lot of the time things are done because no one ever challenges what's happened before. All I'm saying is what I know from when I made pipes in my last job. The effect with the air flow is identical to that with the inlet.

I can't remember the website now, but when I started doing my headwork Mark P directed me to a website giving the how it's done, he also did some work on exhaust ports too, the bearing on that matter would be similar... if mark still knows the link?
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/22/17 12:20 am

Originally Posted by Allan Gill



Have you ever seen a bike not using mandrel bends? Your right that mandrel bends look better but it doesn't mean it performs any better, a lot of the time things are done because no one ever challenges what's happened before. All I'm saying is what I know from when I made pipes in my last job. The effect with the air flow is identical to that with the inlet.

I can't remember the website now, but when I started doing my headwork Mark P directed me to a website giving the how it's done, he also did some work on exhaust ports too, the bearing on that matter would be similar... if mark still knows the link?


You may find this of interest, some drama but worth the 14 minutes......Just smash the headers to make more power............

Header bashing

Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/24/17 1:21 am

no more time for the pipes . . . i'm going to run what i brung, and any changes will be in version 2.

tach issues. my pretty eurotrash veglia-replica speedo won't fit down in front of the triple clamps without a longer cable. can't do a longer cable ASAP because it needs to be italian on top and british on the bottom. but steadfast to the rescue! he sells a 37-inch cable to go to a T140 speedo, and both are on the way. if they don't get here, i can steal the late instrument bracket from my long-suffering T120 and mount the repro veglia on it, up on the triple tree. won't be able to see it during a run, but that's life.

my firesleeve from pegasus is too tight to let the fuel flow through the lines. i bought 11/16-inch to cover 5/16-inch fuel injection hose, but it won't bend without kinking--should have bought 1-inch. i won't spend more money at $0.88 per inch just to look good, so i'll save that nicety for next time as well.

dyno scheduled for thursday next. will be cranking it up on first day, day after tomorrow, if the pipe brackets arrive on time. or even if they don't.

time enough to finish, not so if something goes wrong.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/24/17 12:11 pm

With the Rob Hall head and the cams, your engine should be good for 55 RWHP (depending on the dyno) and that should be good for near 130 MPH with the right gearing and if you can coax your old body into an effective tuck...
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/24/17 12:56 pm

with the low tanks i can jam my head down and look out from under the top triple clamp. i'm stretching so i don't go into rigor mortis at the half-mile mark.

i'm coming with 18, 19, 20, 21, 43, and 46-tooth sprocketing. i should find something in there with several days to look.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/24/17 4:52 pm

I used 4.47 overall gearing with a 27.5 inch tall rear tire to run 128 plus MPH at Loring...About 7050 RPM.... , more or less the peak power on the dynamometer...
Posted By: koncretekid

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/25/17 1:28 am

At Loring, no firesleeve required except on un-valved portions of fuel line such as crossovers, if that helps. Instruments must be mounted no lower than 2" below top of upper triple clamps in M class.

Good luck with the Dyno runs. Get the Air Fuel ratio at wide open throttle correct first, then play with the timing to get maximum hp. Gear for maximum hp rpm at the lights.

Tom
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/25/17 6:11 pm

Originally Posted by Mark Parker


I'm interested to know if 2 into 1s can be configured to give more top end than two single pipes? What have people found?

Triples seem best with 3 into1s.

With twins I remember Troy Corser racing an Aprilia twin in superbikes and it wasn't competitive till they replaced a 2into1 with a twin system. The twin system was connected though. Why I think an 'X' connector twin system would be advantageous.


i'd like to find an answer to this as well. to me, the big thing about separate pipes is that they're simply easier for me to think about. you can disconnect each cylinder's positive and negative pressure pulses from each other, and not try to also understand the interactions. with a 2-into-1, you have to consider the pulses from the right side that affect the cylinder filling on the other side . . . even so, car people deal with this routinely, as do tuners of most machines with more than two cylinders.

rob hall uses a 2-into-1 on some of his machines, he says. and last september, a nice fellow from australia ran a 650cc triumph to 116 with a 2-into-1 leading to a short collector right under the motor.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/26/17 12:07 am

it runs.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

briefly, anyway. started right up with a few kicks, kept dying because the idle was too low. cranked up the idle, and it switched to single kick start. ran it for a minute or two then it shut off suddenly. now it kicks back viciously, so i'm assuming the timing has slipped. will fix it tomorrow.

i've got some awful video, but my telephone won't upload anything at the moment. tach even works, stuck up there on top of the forks.

pipes are cut off at 34 inches, measuring around the outside. with the extensions i can change to to 36, 38, 40, and 42. that's all i can do as i ran out of tube. lol.
Posted By: Allan Gill

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/26/17 6:41 am

I would say your slides are too high and mixture not correct for it to be kicking back like that.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/26/17 10:10 am

i'm sure that could contribute, allan. i havdnt done anything to the carbs except balance them briefly with a unisyn.

the timing on the ARD is set aporoximatelt by positioning the lower pulley wheel. then you loosen two grubscrews and rotating the separete outer rim of the pulley to position tbe breaker cam correctlty. my wheelwas formerly frozen up, and now that it is free i'm pretty sure the pulley rim just slipped back on the hub. the machine shut off suddenly and then wouln't restart.

damn telephone self editing

anyway i'll look it over tonight. i hhave the magneto itself set in the middle ofits 10 degree adjustment range, so i can fine tune with that and not mess with yhe grubscrews, once i'm close
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/27/17 12:26 am

got it going again. the exhaust camshaft drives the lower wheel through a steel hub that centers the aluminum pulley wheel. i had made the mistake of tightening the grub screws before tightening the center fixing bolt (the one that normally holds the AAU cam), so the wheel was never fully secured, and slipped backwards around the steel hub after a few minutes.

this time i tapped the aluminum wheel into place, tightedned the fixing bolt, and then did the grubscrews . . .

runs okay, oil returns, even idles, sort of lumpy, though. haven't messed with the idle mixture screws at all, that's tomorrow, maybe.

brandon moore came through three days early from steadfast with the smiths-style tach, and the longer drive cable fits perfectly, so i have the peek-a-boo tach view from under the top triple clamp after all.

video sooner or later. my number one son pulled out his camera, but we have slow-fi here so it's still uploading to youtube.

yo here it is

Posted By: shel

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/27/17 1:05 am

You're a big guy, Kev. putting #1 son on that thing might good for a couple free MPH, lol. Was that the unisyn you put on there at the end of the vid? I bought one used but haven't used it yet, I don't have any instructions with it but I think I know it works.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: mail-order LSR - 06/27/17 1:39 am

i'm way big. i started out at 210, but i'm down to 188 now so i can fold up tighter. maybe 185 by 09 july? lol

big is a problem. you can't fake the wind resistance.

actually, my number one daughter might be better than the boy, at 107, and skinny like a hot teenager, to my eternal concern. she's got her learner's permit but just dirt bikes until i get the pazon on the 65 BSA to make it reliable enough for her to kickstart. she's small enough to go fast and young enough to want to.

yes, that was the unisyn. took just that long to check the balance on the carbs. they were both spot on, but if they hadn't been, i'd just have turned the idle screws in or out until the little orange bobble-thingie was at the same height on both carbs.

the unisyn and 30 seconds of attention makes the motor go