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SG rated full synthetic oil in 20-50. #706622 08/29/17 6:00 pm
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steve-d Offline OP
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I haven't run across any oils with the SG designation and fully synthetic. If anyone is aware of it I would greatly appreciate a brand name. As has been noted in other posts, the SG designation captures the additive package needed by our older machines. Thank you very much, Steve


73 T140V;
02 Ducati ST4s
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Re: SG rated full synthetic oil in 20-50. [Re: steve-d] #706630 08/29/17 7:31 pm
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John Healy Offline
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Quote
I haven't run across any oils with the SG designation and fully synthetic.


You will find most synthetic oil rated for our motorcycles will be 20w50 SJ JASO MA2


Re: SG rated full synthetic oil in 20-50. [Re: John Healy] #706634 08/29/17 8:36 pm
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steve-d Offline OP
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Hi John, thanks. So, the SJ JASO MA2 rated oil has sufficient additives backward looking to be usable in our older bikes (1973 T140)?


73 T140V;
02 Ducati ST4s
Re: SG rated full synthetic oil in 20-50. [Re: steve-d] #706638 08/29/17 9:17 pm
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In looking around, I haven't found a full synthetic with API SG rating, not so far anyway. There may be a message there. (I do use full synthetic in my "modern" bikes what with modern filtration and 4,000 or so mile oil change intervals.)

For a while I used a "part" synthetic with SG rating in my BBs
http://www.castrol.com/en_us/united-states/motorcycle-oil/4-stroke-engine-oil/act-evo-x-tra-4t.html
[edit] I recall another oil thread about two years ago, someone here had contacted Castrol for a recommendation on which Castrol product to use in these old bikes, and Castrol recommended this Actevo 4T part synthetic with API SG rating.


... but have since changed back to "mineral-based" not-at-all synthetic in the BBs. Not sure why, just seemed like the right thing to do. Maybe because I put on less than 1,000 miles per year of easy-to-moderate use, and change the oil at least once a year. My '71 BSA A65L has a "Norton-type" external filter installed in the return line, I'll get to the Triumphs ... at some point.
http://www.castrol.com/en_us/united...gine-oil/4t-4-stroke-motorcycle-oil.html






Last edited by kurt fischer; 08/31/17 4:40 pm. Reason: clarifications, details, and so on

Kurt

-- Don't believe everything you think.
Re: SG rated full synthetic oil in 20-50. [Re: steve-d] #706640 08/29/17 9:33 pm
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Lucas SYN 20-50 MOTORCYCLE OIL or Valvoline VR-1 Racing dino oil
Join TIOC and you get John's tech knowledge. Like the Some Times You Have To Go Back To Go Forward article in the Summer 2014 Vintage Bike Mag.

Re: SG rated full synthetic oil in 20-50. [Re: steve-d] #706641 08/29/17 9:57 pm
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Amsoil has a 20w/50 SG
JASO MA/MA-2
API SG/SL/CF/CG-4
ISO-L-EMA2 LINK


1969 BSA A65T w/A70 engine
1970 Royal Enfield Interceptor S ll
Re: SG rated full synthetic oil in 20-50. [Re: bodine031] #706643 08/29/17 10:04 pm
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Originally Posted by bodine031
LUCAS SYN 20-50 MOTORCYCLE OIL...

Is it listed here?
http://lucasoilmotorcycleproducts.com/products/content/high-performance-engine-oils



Originally Posted by Keane Lucas
Amsoil has a 20w/50 SG
JASO MA/MA-2
API SG/SL/CF/CG-4
ISO-L-EMA2 LINK

Appears to be "SL" from what I can see.



Kurt

-- Don't believe everything you think.
Re: SG rated full synthetic oil in 20-50. [Re: steve-d] #706646 08/29/17 10:21 pm
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Quote
You want SG not SJ, as John wrote.]

I did say most... ??????

Synthetics for most 4 stroke motorcycle oils are API SJ.
Brad Penn synthetic 4 stroke motorcycle oil is API SJ

Mobil 1 Synthetic:
Typical Properties
Mobil 1 Motorcycle Oils V-Twin
Engine/Application Type 4-Cycle
SAE Grade 20W-50
Service Classification API SJ, SH, CF
Density, g/ml @ 15.6°C 0.87
Flash Point, °C (ASTM D93), 214
Pour Point, °C (ASTM D97) - -42
Kinematic Viscosity, 82.0 172.3
Kinematic Viscosity, 13.1 20.8
Viscosity Index 142
Cold Cranking, 7,500 @ -15°C
Pumping, c 14,000 @ -20°C


Re: SG rated full synthetic oil in 20-50. [Re: steve-d] #706671 08/30/17 1:45 am
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When I ran synthetic, my clutch would slip in fourth around 60mph and the rings never seated.
ymmv


Please do not believe anything I write. I am a hack but I like to guess the right answers.
Re: SG rated full synthetic oil in 20-50. [Re: steve-d] #706675 08/30/17 3:17 am
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What we've since learned about synthetics is that the synthetic oil is not responsible for the clutches slipping and rings not seating. It's the additives that do that.
I've been using Lucas 20-50 synthetic motorcycle oil lately in my bikes. It's pretty expensive, but the extended oil change interval and better protection makes it great economy in the long run.

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: SG rated full synthetic oil in 20-50. [Re: HawaiianTiger] #706677 08/30/17 5:45 am
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Originally Posted by HawaiianTiger
What we've since learned about synthetics is that the synthetic oil is not responsible for the clutches slipping and rings not seating. It's the additives that do that.

Bill


Did someone not know that?


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: SG rated full synthetic oil in 20-50. [Re: steve-d] #706681 08/30/17 10:38 am
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Of course if your bike's clutch and transmission oil is separate from the engine this oil business is a bit different...


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: SG rated full synthetic oil in 20-50. [Re: steve-d] #706682 08/30/17 10:49 am
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Try this MAXIMA EXTRA 4 15/50 ESTER BASED SYN. JASO-MA SG/CC SG= SPARK gas engine CC= COMPRESION Diesel G&C = API rating
Been using this since new in my 03 Bonny and the wife's 05 Kaw Z-750S rings seated and no clutch slip OH YEA and in the wife's T-160 after a complete engine reman. !!

Re: SG rated full synthetic oil in 20-50. [Re: steve-d] #706686 08/30/17 11:35 am
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Steve d -

What is it exactly that you wish to accomplish by using synthetic? Longer oil-change intervals? Less 'wear' on the engine? Cost?

Just curious....

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: SG rated full synthetic oil in 20-50. [Re: JubeePrince] #706702 08/30/17 1:50 pm
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Originally Posted by JubeePrince
What is it exactly that you wish to accomplish by using synthetic? Longer oil-change intervals? Less 'wear' on the engine? Cost?



Right, because I thought the ball and roller mains chopped up the long chain polymers in the oils, mandating frequent oil changes no matter what oil you used. Following that thinking, the only thing that allowed you "longer intervals between oil changes" was adding on an oil filter.

Just interested.


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: SG rated full synthetic oil in 20-50. [Re: steve-d] #706712 08/30/17 4:42 pm
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You can have longer change intervals with mineral oil.

Not saying it's a good thing. Longer change intervals not be a good thing with synthetic oil either.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: SG rated full synthetic oil in 20-50. [Re: steve-d] #706722 08/30/17 7:19 pm
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Just curious. If the people who market synthetics oils are claiming double mileage oil change intervals, and it's not true, doesn't that mean that oil industry people can't be trusted?

But, wait. If it wasn't true, then they would sell twice as much oil.......mo money mo money!

Having trouble wrapping my head around this.....


Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: SG rated full synthetic oil in 20-50. [Re: steve-d] #706723 08/30/17 7:32 pm
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I'm trying to achieve less wear on the engine and reduced sludge buildup in the sludge tube. I've installed a sump filter. I am looking for synthetic as it is less likely to break down versus mineral-based oil in high heat during the summer months when I primarily run the machine.

I do run it for long periods in stop-and-go traffic and that is where oil breakdown can ultimately occur. I choose to seek a synthetic in order to avoid the frequent mineral-based oil changes that would overcome this situation.

I reviewed the Amsoil 20-50 as well as the Lucas 20-50 synthetic oil data sheets. Both indicate they are SG rated. Thank you so much for the references. They should fit the bill for what I am hoping to use. Steve

Last edited by steve-d; 08/30/17 7:34 pm.

73 T140V;
02 Ducati ST4s
Re: SG rated full synthetic oil in 20-50. [Re: HawaiianTiger] #706730 08/30/17 8:23 pm
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Originally Posted by HawaiianTiger
Just curious. If the people who market synthetics oils are claiming double mileage oil change intervals, and it's not true, doesn't that mean that oil industry people can't be trusted?


You may trust sales talk, if it pleases you to do so.

Quote
But, wait. If it wasn't true, then they would sell twice as much oil.......mo money mo money!

Having trouble wrapping my head around this.....


Cheers,
Bill


I wouldn't be at all surprised if synthetic is better oil.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: SG rated full synthetic oil in 20-50. [Re: RF Whatley] #706733 08/30/17 8:41 pm
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Originally Posted by RF Whatley
Originally Posted by JubeePrince
What is it exactly that you wish to accomplish by using synthetic? Longer oil-change intervals? Less 'wear' on the engine? Cost?



Right, because I thought the ball and roller mains chopped up the long chain polymers in the oils, mandating frequent oil changes no matter what oil you used. Following that thinking, the only thing that allowed you "longer intervals between oil changes" was adding on an oil filter.

Just interested.

But what is frequent oil changes?, The majority of modern bike engines share oil with the transmission that is full of many many roller and ball bearings and gears Of course all newer bikes have full flow oil filters..Oil change intervals are as long as 8000 miles on some models.Modern engines most likely have less blowby crap in the oil and more consistant operating temperatures than a vintage bike so that would allow longer intervals...


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: SG rated full synthetic oil in 20-50. [Re: RF Whatley] #706738 08/30/17 9:57 pm
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Hi Richard,

Originally Posted by RF Whatley
I thought the ball and roller mains chopped up the long chain polymers in the oils,

You are mistaken.

Originally Posted by RF Whatley
the only thing that allowed you "longer intervals between oil changes" was adding on an oil filter.

Given Triumph and BSA triples have "ball and roller mains", a proper micropore oil filter and at least double the oil change intervals of any twin, guess what's important for "longer intervals between oil changes" ... wink

Regards,

Re: SG rated full synthetic oil in 20-50. [Re: steve-d] #706743 08/30/17 10:08 pm
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Air cooled vs liquid cooled is the answer. If you have a liquid cooled motor, then I think you can get quite a few more miles from your oil before it feels like water between your fingers.
Yep, that's my empirical oil testing method.
Wash your hands after. Nasty stuff that.

I'm really trying hard to get 3k miles from my Honda before I change the Lucas 20-50 synthetic motorcycle oil. It's a difficult thing. All my instincts are telling me 1500 miles. Perhaps even 5k miles would be OK. That Honda motor will likely go 100K miles no matter what I did to it.

I'd love to run synthetics in my classics(I know, the Honda is over 30 yrs old but it's just about impossible to think of it as a classic.) The main reason is that they don't get ridden daily. Just weekly or sometimes monthly. I think the coating that synthetics leave on metal will help with dry starts. But the synthetics dramatically increase engine noise which I find offensive.

No real evidence to support that except from various internet sources. But in the end, there's always just a little bit of faith involved in our decisions.

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: SG rated full synthetic oil in 20-50. [Re: steve-d] #706752 08/30/17 11:02 pm
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Quote
I'm trying to achieve less wear on the engine


And that is exactly what we found when we switched several Vincents to Mobil 1 v-twin 20w50 API SL JASO MA2. Vincents are known for premature cam and lifter wear. Mobil 1 v-twin decreased cam and lifter wear significantly.

My opinion about oil changes hasn't changed with synthetic. When used for short hauls in areas, or weather, where condensation will collect, and the engine never gets hot enough to distill it off as water vapor, I change it a lot. When used for long hauls the change intervals increase up to the manufacturers recommendation. Thee is no one answer to when to change your oil.


Re: SG rated full synthetic oil in 20-50. [Re: HawaiianTiger] #706759 08/30/17 11:55 pm
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Originally Posted by HawaiianTiger


I'd love to run synthetics in my classics(I know, the Honda is over 30 yrs old but it's just about impossible to think of it as a classic.) The main reason is that they don't get ridden daily. Just weekly or sometimes monthly. I think the coating that synthetics leave on metal will help with dry starts. But the synthetics dramatically increase engine noise which I find offensive.


Cheers,
Bill

You're not the only person I've heard say synthetics can make more engine noise or perhaps a different noise. Go on Bob is the Oil Guy message board and there is all sorts of stories about certain oils being noisier.. ..With synthetics I noticed a slight difference in engine noise in the Buell ,no difference on the 96 Ducati, both using Mobil 20/50 V Twin oil.. ...I use Valvoline full synthetic VR1 20/50 in the Triumph race bikes...It's a SL rated oil with friction modifiers and more ZDDP than almost all Jaso bike oils..These bikes don't share engine and primary oil...The engines don't seem to make more mechanical clatter than a stock Triumph...But they have open pipes...

To determine oil change interval besides the usual factors, I think you have to look at the additive package...And as mentioned a quality oil filter
To be truthful I change oil in my bikes and Jeeps/truck once a year......


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: SG rated full synthetic oil in 20-50. [Re: steve-d] #706767 08/31/17 12:33 am
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Oil beliefs are like religion. If you believe one way, a thousand proofs proving you wrong are not going to change your mind. If you have the money and think one thing is better than another, spend it. Most people riding these old turds around are looking to spend four or five bucks a quart. That's me. I used to ride 10,000 miles a year or more. I change oil once a year, if it needs it or not. Sometimes I doubt if there is 500 miles on it.
I hate getting old.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
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