Britbike forum
Posted By: T120C stuck kickstart pin - 07/31/19 11:57 pm
hey guys, helping a friend clean up his triumph 650. Lots of weathered parts on the external. For the life of me I can not get the kickstart pin out on the bike. Gave it a couple of taps, soaked it in penetrating solution, even put a big C clamp and socket to try and ease it out. Any ideas?? it will be replaced, but still don't want to damage it too much. I think my next step is heat, but wanted to check if anyone else has run into this.

Thanks in advance!!!
Posted By: HawaiianTiger Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/01/19 12:54 am
The pin is likely pretty deformed by now by repeated kick starts. Move the kick start lever forward with some force. Then try again.
Cheers,
Bill
Posted By: htown Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/01/19 2:20 am
Sometimes they are put in backwards which jams them in there. Try some heat.
Posted By: DMadigan Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/01/19 5:05 am
Use a plastic hammer on the lever forward then put the nut flush with the end of the thread and hit it with a steel punch and hammer.
Posted By: T120C Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/01/19 4:59 pm
Thanks yall!!
Posted By: Tridentman Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/01/19 6:54 pm
Jack--this is not a delicate job.
Don't use a clamp and try to force it out.
You need to shock and jar the fit.
So follow Dave Ms method but don't be afraid to give the pin a big whack to shock it out.
Best of luck!
Posted By: HawaiianTiger Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/01/19 9:21 pm
This is a good time to recommend a good quality pin for these bikes. I've run across a lot of them in the past that were soft as cheese. They get mangled immediately and need repeated tightening until they are no good at all. I still have a small supply of them that are of a harder steel that seem to last forever, but for the life of me, I cannot remember where I got them. I even have had the good ones re-plated and I have several of them.
Cheers,
Bill
Posted By: kevin Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/01/19 9:49 pm
does anybody besides me still have a bicycle with cotters in the pedal cranks?

just curious. mine is an old tandem i've owned since i bought it for 7/6 back when wilson was PM. the guy i bought it from told me it was a sturmey archer, but i have no lnowledge of them ever building a push bike.
Posted By: T120C Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/01/19 10:02 pm
Thanks Bill and Trident.. yes I had to order 3 from different dealers for my other bike before I found ones hard enough to work.
Posted By: quinten Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/01/19 11:07 pm
.
Is the nut in front ... correct
Or nut in back ...

Something like this might work [Linked Image]
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/01/19 11:41 pm
Originally Posted by kevin roberts
does anybody besides me still have a bicycle with cotters in the pedal cranks?

just curious. mine is an old tandem i've owned since i bought it for 7/6 back when wilson was PM. the guy i bought it from told me it was a sturmey archer, but i have no lnowledge of them ever building a push bike.


Yes,we have two 1960's British bicycles, a Hercules and Raleigh...
Posted By: T120C Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/02/19 12:46 am
Quinten, that is exactly what I tried first. No luck
Posted By: Tridentman Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/02/19 2:22 am
Yes--I have a 1950s Triumph bicycle.
Bought it in Maine for $100.
Complete with Triumph badge on the headstock.
Posted By: DavidP Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/02/19 3:27 am
Originally Posted by kevin roberts
does anybody besides me still have a bicycle with cotters in the pedal cranks?

Had them in the past. I have a '79 Raleigh with cotterless crank now. Replaced the crank bearings a couple of years ago, loosen one nut and the crank pulls off.
Posted By: tridentt150v Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/02/19 4:07 am
Pushbike cotters are no good these days because they are all metric and so undersize. Coupled to this the metal used in them is too soft. I'm in the same boat as Bill, I have a small finite supply of the correct hard ones, but have no idea where I got them from - reality is it was so long ago, that business is probably long gone anyway. So I'm ok for now, but one day not too far away I will look in my spares tray and panic
Posted By: Bodie Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/02/19 5:53 am
Originally Posted by tridentt150v
Pushbike cotters are no good these days because they are all metric and so undersize. Coupled to this the metal used in them is too soft.

whistle
Just another rumour started because people are frightened of standing in queue next to a man who's wearing tight Lycra shorts wink laughing

Pushbike cotter pins work fine , It's true they're 'slightly' undersize but they still do the job ok ..
The only draw back I've ever noticed (if it is one?) they just pull in flush to the surface when they're fully tightened up , So no little titty hanging out the back of the kickstart whistle

I've been using them for years on my bikes .. Fact the last one I changed must be about 5 yrs ago and it's still going good , No signs of any wear at all yet , The quickest death for a cotter pin is putting it in backwards . From what I can guess is they don't fit down onto the flat on the kickstart shaft very well & then the edge of the 'flat' just chews into them a little like a bolt cutter .. Into Cheese ..

Rocket 3 Kickstart cotter pin is flush ~>
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Morrisey Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/02/19 5:54 am
If things get really bad, you can get them out as follows:
jar the kick starter forward numerous time to ensure it has broken off the taper. This may need paint marks to check movement.
cut the threaded portion of the pin off close to the lever
Drive the pin back using 1/4" pin punch, large ball peen hammer. and solid blows (this often needs two people - one to hold the lever forward, the other to drive pin out) The punch needs to be centred on threaded portion every time to stop it mushrooming.

Sometimes best to hold the pin punch with pliers to reduce jarring. Also need to be very careful of backswing on hammer.
Posted By: Ginge Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/02/19 6:22 am
Thinking financially here...

The cotter pin is disposable. The kicker shaft is less so.

The cotter pin is softer than the hardened shaft so it should give first. With penetrating oil and time. Also hammers and punches.

Too much heat will take the hardening out of the kicker shaft.

As has been said, the cotter will be mushroomed or deformed. Cut it, drill it, bash it, but protect the shaft.
Posted By: dave jones Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/02/19 7:56 am
I was thinking that maybe Quinten's set up would work in combination with a hammer strike. It would be similar to using the tool for removing the clutch hub where you aren't supposed to just keep turning it rather you tension it and then tap to free the taper.

I noticed that the non nut end of my cotter pin has disappeared into the kick start lever quite a way rather than being level or a bit proud.

As to push bikes I am pretty sure Sturmey Archer did make bikes but are more famous for their hub gears.

Dave
Posted By: kommando Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/02/19 8:24 am
Ginge plus 1, have plenty of soft cotters and change often before they deform too much, if you get ones with the correct flat for your shaft, that helps them last longer. The flat size is different BSA to Triumph, you can buy them with no flat and then add one to suit the application.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/02/19 9:48 am
Strange as it may seem but the last cotters I bought from Wassels are pretty good and well plated! unlike some of the softer items previously fitted.

Some tips, I was raised on cheap bicycles with cotters.
Nut to front , it has to be , nut to back will drive the wedge out.

To extract an old notched cotter, push lever forward, slacken nut to flush with cotter end.
Important if you want to save your casings and prevent the nut from getting mashed.
Use a long approx 3/8" BRASS drift, this keeps the hammer away from the cases and prevents the nut from getting peened. use a big hammer , one good dunt is better than several taps. This works 9 times out of ten, but sometimes......
If it is really in there, saw the end off flush. Centre pop the stub and drill out as much as you can from each end , then get medieval with a small punch to drive out the waste.

Do not use the nut to draw in the new pin, knock the pin onto its wedge from the butt end , again , use a brass drift. Snug up the nut. After a few kicks , do this again.
The cotter pin is a sacrificial item ,using a hardened pin would damage the flats on the KS spindle.

Bicycle purists shudder at the hammer method and prefer the correct cotter press tool, they are out there, and are a good thing, hammer blows are not good for bottom bracket bearings, however , the kickstart action of a motorcycle usually creates a deep bite in the pin face that is reluctant to press out, hence the shock tactic.
Posted By: Ginge Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/02/19 10:21 am
Quote
then get medieval with a small punch to drive out the waste.


Lovely turn of phrase Gavin. Sometimes you’ve gotta get medieval!

Plus 1 for the method.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/02/19 11:58 am
Originally Posted by Tridentman
Yes--I have a 1950s Triumph bicycle.
Bought it in Maine for $100.
Complete with Triumph badge on the headstock.

The 60's Hercules I have has what appears to be a Sturmey Archer 3 speed that has Hercules name on it..The decal on the seat down tube states "Guaranteed finest steel hand braised and bonderized"...all original and ridable for a mere $60...I remember BSA bicycles with a twist grip gear change...
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/02/19 12:13 pm
IIRC bonderising was an internal coating so the tubes didnt rot from the inside out.
Posted By: HawaiianTiger Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/02/19 9:24 pm
I had an English bike that had an automatic three speed transmission. It worked pretty good and the gear change points could be adjusted, but not on the fly. I really should have kept that bike.
Cheers,
Bill
Posted By: raf940 Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/02/19 9:39 pm
me too...I have bike with auto clutch/3 speed...….1969 Honda Z50 hauls my big fat self around as pitbike……..
Posted By: T120C Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/03/19 1:04 am
I did finally get it, thanks for all the help... It did take heat. The pin was all rusty.

Thanks
Posted By: htown Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/03/19 1:14 am
See if you can find an image of that year bike and make sure the pin is fitted the right way round.
Posted By: Bodie Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/03/19 4:44 am
It's a Triumph 650 ..
Without any question > The nut always faces forward ~> towards the front wheel .
Posted By: Hermit Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/03/19 11:40 am
Originally Posted by Bodie
It's a Triumph 650 ..
Without any question > The nut always faces forward ~> towards the front wheel .


+1 If you put it in with the nut to the rear the threaded end of the pin will foul the footpeg.
Posted By: tridentt150v Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/04/19 9:42 am
Bodie...not sure which ones you are using but the pushbike ones I tried didn't tighten properly to start with or were loose within a dozen kicks....I gave up on them.
Posted By: Bodie Re: stuck kickstart pin - 08/05/19 2:31 am
Originally Posted by tridentt150v
Pushbike cotters are no good these days because they are all metric and so undersize. Coupled to this the metal used in them is too soft

Originally Posted by tridentt150v
Bodie...not sure which ones you are using but the pushbike ones I tried didn't tighten properly to start with or were loose within a dozen kicks....I gave up on them.

But surely there must have been some positives wink laughing

I don't know what ones i'm using either ? .. Just plain pushbike ones 9.5mm diameter with a short flat taper ,
The odds are it's more likely the ones you had all those years ago were just made plain @rap rather than the ones I got are being anything really special , Mine were only 5-6yrs old .. (newer soft rubbish wink )

Even if you put a so called "harder" cotter pin in backwards or don't tighten it up correctly it'll always fail sooner ,
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