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Posted By: Hillbilly bike LSR Triumph build begins - 01/14/13 4:40 pm
I'm getting going on building the 650 unit engine for the 650cc Modified gas push rod class at Bonneville.We don't expect to break any records but build a reliable engine that's competitive.So it won't be too radical.
Going through my pile of connecting rods there's nothing that isn't suspect. A set of new R&R rods was not any more $ than NOS Triumph rods. MAP 10.5 tight quench forged pistons.Older pair of Sifton #390 cams .Kibblewhite(PM)valves,springs and retainers. Smith bros steel push rods.
A set of 1970 cases,the crank is getting machined to fit the rods and then off for stress relief and heat treating.The head is getting a proper valve job and that's about it.
Ignition is most likely Pazon with battery only.
An unwanted 71 OIF has modified lowered seating,and we have flat track Ceriani front forks.
And here's small expensive pile.

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Posted By: Tim Lynch Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 01/16/13 2:32 pm
Hillbilly,

I run a Pazon system on my JAWBSA sprinter with total loss battery. I used to use a 5Ah gell battery which was good for 180 miles between charges. I now use a Shorai 12v 14Ah Lithium Iron battery which Pazon actually recommend. What a brilliant battery, so light I thought the box was empty when it arrived through post. I dont know how far it will last as I have not needed to charge it yet. A bit pricey but well worth it.
Posted By: Two Alpha Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 01/16/13 6:22 pm
Originally Posted by Tim Lynch
I now use a Shorai 12v 14Ah Lithium Iron battery which Pazon actually recommend. What a brilliant battery, so light I thought the box was empty when it arrived through post. I dont know how far it will last as I have not needed to charge it yet. A bit pricey but well worth it.


I've been using one of these for the past two years, what a fantastic improvement over the old lead acids. One of these should be ideal for an LSR total loss application.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 01/16/13 10:12 pm
Originally Posted by Two Alpha
Originally Posted by Tim Lynch
I now use a Shorai 12v 14Ah Lithium Iron battery which Pazon actually recommend. What a brilliant battery, so light I thought the box was empty when it arrived through post. I dont know how far it will last as I have not needed to charge it yet. A bit pricey but well worth it.


I've been using one of these for the past two years, what a fantastic improvement over the old lead acids. One of these should be ideal for an LSR total loss application.


The LSR bike will run a few minutes warm up and them make the run,3 miles.Maybe 6 minutes total. Battery life from discharge isn't an issue. But any battery that's more durable (vibration) is good.
Posted By: 750 Tracker Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 01/23/13 10:36 pm
What mods were needed to install the R&R rods? You mention machining the crank. What kind of machining ? Did you have to notch the cylinders ? Thanks, Tracker
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 01/24/13 3:25 pm
The rods are a race ready product out of the box. Balanced and machined to accept Triumph bearing shells and piston pin.The rods are torqued with .010 bearings in place,measured,then the crank journals machined to the desired bearing clearance.Side clearance "adjusted' as necessary.Haven't checked the cylinder clearance yet,will do it during one of several mock ups. I do believe clearance is no problem.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 02/06/13 7:37 pm
Got the crank back from heat treating.They call it "Gaseous ferritic nitrocarburizing".Then I got the crankshaft to the machine shop for balancing.They have state of the art digital balance machine and do a lot of racing V-8's. V-8's generally use a 50 percent balance factor........I checked up on balancing and 70-72 percent seems to be what's needed for this engine.The R&R rods are 15 grams lighter than stock late 60's rods.The forged pistons about 10 grams heavier than stock Hepolites....Crank was balanced with grinding on the bob weights only..020 was machined off the the flywheel for cam lobe clearance.






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Posted By: LouisB Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 02/08/13 6:09 pm
Hello, newly registered on the forums, but i have enjoyed the wealth of information for some time now. Special thanks to John Healy for sharing his vast knowlegde.
I have been riding Triumphs for 40 years, street and track.
I want to have an original Bonneville crank heat treated, and the local treatment company would like to know the quality of the steel it is made of. I would think EN40B, but how does this translate into modern international standards?
Then they have questions about the depth of the treatment, they usually do .2 to .3mm(8 thou to 12 thou)on crankshafts. Is more better, the aim being to make the whole thing more rigid?
Thanks for your help.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 02/08/13 6:38 pm
I am not an expert on heat treating.This particular process was recommended by the local heating treating shop.They do highly stressed crankshafts for drags , circle track and tractor pulling .
This is the actual process...cost was $85 Lindure

Posted By: LouisB Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 02/08/13 8:31 pm
Thanks for the link to Lindure Bodycote, this is very interesting as my local treatment company is also Bodycote.
They will know it is feasible on this crank.
Posted By: Pete R - R.I.P. Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 02/09/13 8:09 am
Triumph cranks weren't EN40.As far as I know they were EN16B.
The normal procedure is to ferritic nitrocarburise,only about 0.001" deep (Tufftriding).
Posted By: LouisB Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 02/11/13 9:13 am
Pete, yes, EN16B. I was confused at the moment of writing.
I have to go back to the treatment company to discuss the depth of the treatment and what to expect from it. They do helicopter parts and probably dont know much about a 40year old british crank...
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 02/11/13 12:30 pm
Bodycote I believe is a franchise heat treating process.The facility I used is also called Lindberg Heat treating.
I called first and talked to an engineer or tech rep who briefly explained what they can do for me.When I arrived in person with the crank,the same man explained in detail the process he recommended.He said it's "Tufftriding" by a different name and improved process. He mentioned they do all sorts of racing crankshafts including 4 foot long cranks for competition pulling tractors.They also do gears and industrial parts.
I have have to trust people who have done 100's of crankshafts to make the right decision.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 02/26/13 8:09 pm
My partner came over today and we got something done.No clearance issues with the R&R rods . Also had .020 shaved off the flywheel for cam lobe clearance. Sifton #390 cams won't degree in on the numbers on the recommended degrees duration at .113 lift.Short on opening and long on closing by about 3 degrees can't be adjusted out. and it's very close at .020 and .040 lift so call it good to go.
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Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 02/26/13 11:27 pm
Originally Posted by Allan Gill
Hillbilly, do I understand you correctly? Your cams are opening 3 degrees early and closing 3 degrees late?

If so, would this come right by the time the head is fitted and valve clearances set? Other thought is what radius of tappet face is the cam designed to work with? I have seen some cam makers use and modify A65 cams, I think this is used on some Triumph and Norton engines.


Alan,yes on the cam degrees.These are R 1.25 radius that have been resurfaced and probably a bit off .
Sifton said lift is measured at the tappet.I think the rocker ratio is about 1.1.....Experience with car engines says stock rocker ratio varies from rocker to rocker,Triumph likely does also.
Posted By: Pete R - R.I.P. Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 02/27/13 11:43 am
"R" radius tappets are 1-1/8" radius.
If your lobe centres are right (from the 0.113" lift readings),that's good enough.

Triumph rockers don't vary much,but the ratio changes slightly between zero lift and full lift,starting at less from zero lift.1-1/8:1,or 9:8 at mid-lift.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 02/27/13 11:52 am
Yes,1-1/8. blush
Posted By: Dick Harris Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 02/27/13 12:39 pm
I don't understand the use of .010 shells to measure the journal to rod shell clearance??? Seems to me that with .010 shells you would be crushing the shells and displacement of metal would be necessary?? What am I missing here??? Dick
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 02/27/13 3:09 pm
.010 oversize bearing inserts have a smaller ID but the same OD as standard bearings.The rod is bench torqued with bearing in place,the ID measured,crank is then machined to fit with desired oil clearance.

I checked the piston to head and valve to piston clearance with clay. Valve to piston is all of .125....The piston to head is fine,and the quench band is about .050.with a.038 thick head gasket That a bit more than ideal...but no good comes out of pistons tickling the head.
Posted By: Pete R - R.I.P. Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 02/28/13 8:58 am
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
The piston to head is fine,and the quench band is about .050.with a.038 thick head gasket That a bit more than ideal...but no good comes out of pistons tickling the head.

Loctite 518 can be handy ,if you want to leave out the cylinder base gasket to reduce clearance.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 02/28/13 11:48 am
Pete,I'm on the fence about tightening the quench too much.John Healy mentioned .035 ish may be to close for a long flat out run with a Nourish crankshaft.I'm using a reworked stock crank with after market rods...but this is a conservative racing engine build so the stuff inside shouldn't be jumping around too much.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 03/01/13 12:15 am
This photo shows the quench area. May not look it but the clay is just about .050 thick...The pistons are MAP 10.5 compression forged "tight' quench.

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Posted By: John Healy Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 03/01/13 2:10 am
Squish bands are a double edge sword. Too little and the piston can hit the head, too much and you risk detonation. I think you will find that most people who have had any experience playing around with squish would consider .050" as too much.

5 pieces of "U" shaped solder (solid type), with the ends facing down, placed around the the piston will give you an accurate way of measuring the real squish. Turn the engine over just once.

The figure you will find for one of those engines is .032". I found this worked everywhere except at Daytona where at .032" we found contact and adjusted it to .035" when we went back to Daytona. We used various thickness copper base gasket to adjust the measurement.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 03/01/13 7:38 pm
Now it's .039 by eliminating the cylinder base gasket and juggling head gaskets.You mentioned previously that less than this may risk contact on long runs even with a stiff Nourish crank.This machine will run at the Ohio Mile and hopefully Bonneville...I tried the soldier and got the same measurements as the clay.Measuring thickness with a calipers is easier with the soft metal.The clay looks nice in the photo ...A guy once used a Tootsie Roll, you get a treat afterwards grin
Posted By: Pete R - R.I.P. Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 03/04/13 8:27 pm
0.039" sounds good to me,and still safe.
At least with Loctite and no gasket,it will stay that way.A gasket can always compress and reduce it slightly.
Posted By: phantom309 Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 03/05/13 6:37 pm
I use nothing or copper from rockers to base. never leaks just a little right stuff to seal.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 03/05/13 8:38 pm
Considering this engine will only need to run for a few minutes on each race,oil leakage shouldn't be an issue laughing
Called Smith Brothers to order .060 longer moly steel push rods. Knowledgeable friendly guy I talked to.He asked if I was was running over 400 pounds of open spring pressure..I said about half that.Ball buster .. And the price? Custom made for 8 bucks each.
I should have the engine fully built in a week or so. My partner is cleaning up the OIF frame that should be in my shop this week.
Posted By: Pete R - R.I.P. Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 03/05/13 9:42 pm
I'm curious why you wanted the pushrods 0.060" longer than standard.

With more than standard cam lift,wouldn't you want them shorter so the pushrod is still square to the rocker at 1/2 lift?You've got about 0.050" more cam lift than the standard pushrods were designed for.Wouldn't you want the pushrods 0.025" shorter?

The included angles on the rocker are right on a 650/750.If the adjuster screw is parallel to the valve stem at 1/2 lift,pushrod length is correct.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 03/05/13 11:25 pm
I fully mocked up the engine last week.Using stock pushrods had the valve lash adjusters screwed in all way .Sifton Cams used Triumph blanks and to get more lift on on any regrind,you take material off the cam heel...So now the tappet sits lower.And with the lash caps I have it should be ok.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 03/07/13 8:05 pm
This is what I have today.....Smith Brothers moly pushrods....and the engine looks like this. The valve geometry looks pretty good. Thanks Pete R for bringing it up.The engine is a 1970 but the crankcase no longer breathes through the primary, but the front cavity instead.Still work to be done on intake length ignition etc....

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Posted By: Pete R - R.I.P. Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 03/08/13 2:06 am
13" or more of intake length might not be practical.
The short alternative,a little over 10",would still work OK at 5500 and again at 7000 rpm.
Just get the exhaust to work somewhere in between.
Posted By: pushrod tom Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 03/08/13 1:10 pm
We hope to see it run at Willmington in April. working on my own stuff as weather permits. PRT
Posted By: Pete R - R.I.P. Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 03/08/13 1:28 pm
I just noticed that you still have the pre-'71 head,rocker boxes and inner head bolts.
That could make it awkward to fit in the '71 frame.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 03/08/13 1:45 pm
Originally Posted by Pete R
I just noticed that you still have the pre-'71 head,rocker boxes and inner head bolts.
That could make it awkward to fit in the '71 frame.


Pete sees all grin The earlier assembled engine fits in a 71 OIF by cutting off the stock upper motor mount bracket and relocating close to the front of the top frame tube.I did this last year on the cafe racer OIF with an earlier engine.But the cafe machine had plain head bolts on the intake rockers so I may have to "clearance" the frame top tube slightly or cut off the studs...
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 03/12/13 10:14 pm
I did the intake as described by Pete R....This is a mock up,Amal 932 carbs. The points are just for initial start up then in goes a Pazon

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Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 03/20/13 10:26 pm
My rider partner brought the frame over today after doing a bit of work.It's in bare polished steel,won't be painted.Typical crappy factory welds. 71 frame,71 fork tubes and fork lowers on 78 yokes.74 ish front wheel with axle machined to fit earlier fork lowers.The frame is set up for final ride height.When finished the fork tubes can be slid up in the yokes to alter front height and rake is ride height . 30 degrees rake and sits two inches lower than stock. Rules require the seat to be higher than the rear tire limits lowering. The engine is just a mock up mule I use for our bobber builds. And as always like the bobber builds,this bike is built from old chopper junk and swap meet parts.No decent bikes were injured... grin

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Earlier I checked the frame to make sure it's true.Taking measurements it was fine except for the right side swing arm axle bracket was off.The axle is where it's supposed to be...the frame rail is slightly tweaked.

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I can secure the frame and try to massage it with hydraulic power....but for this situation I figured "relieving" the axle hole is best

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Posted By: Mike Baker Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 03/21/13 10:08 am
Your frame also looks like it may have had the swingarm mount rewelded. Might want to pressure test it before putting oil in it. Probably why it doesn't fit so good? If I had it to do over, I'd brace it as well.
Looking good!

Mike
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 03/21/13 11:32 am
Originally Posted by mblab
Your frame also looks like it may have had the swingarm mount rewelded. Might want to pressure test it before putting oil in it. Probably why it doesn't fit so good? If I had it to do over, I'd brace it as well.
Looking good!

Mike


Yes,my rider ground down a pile of bogger welds,and had to test for leaks several times with some additional welding.

The oil tube swingarm bracket is where it belongs,the misalignment is only at the right side frame rail bracket.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 03/21/13 8:52 pm
The return oil pipe was plugged with some kind of hard crap resistant to pointy- pokey tools. It's got a bend so a drill won't do it either.Brazed ,so it's easy to remove from a naked frame on a bench.For reference,the drilled hole for the pipe outlet is .135 inch

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Posted By: t.read Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 03/27/13 2:54 pm
I had a similar problem with my original roadrace frame. A guy I know tried to weld up a crack along that swingarm pivot tube where it meets the oil tank to cure a leak there. Didn't put the swingarm bolt and all the spacers in place while he did it and it pulled the pivot out of alignment. Had nothing to do with the right frame rail bracket. Frame is basically junk now unless I can get it in a jig to reposition the pivot and re-weld it.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 03/27/13 6:10 pm
You can make your own fixture to hold it in place.Can be as simple as a few lengths of angle iron temporarily spot welded to hold parts in alignment.
My partner welded it...I thought for sure it was out of alignment from welding distortion but my measurements said it was ok. Now the machine is assembled on the work table and after some fiddling around with home made spacers the engine,front and rear wheels where they should be.So long as it tracks straight I'm good to go.

Posted By: maxx77 Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 04/12/13 3:06 am
HELLO; I have been following your LSR build; looks like you are doing everything right.(what are you doing to the cam gears) I have not built a T120/140 motor in a vary long time, 30+ years; in any event, what is your overall opinion of the R&R rods? Im looking at a set I just received today for an A65 build, and Im having second thoughts? I have /did use Carrillo rods, never an issue with Carrillo's other than weight of the rod. I have not heard of anyone else using R&R rods, and have not read any commits on this forum in regard to R&R rods. I also understand that R&R did in fact make rods for MAP; that doesn't tell me anything about the rods. too many beers, second guessing etc.....; in any event, I am interested in your opinion at this point. and if anyone else has any advise/opinion Im interested. yup, opinions are what he/she said..etc...What I need is real life user's of the R&R rod's to give honest evaluation in our application; ie..flogging the sh4T out of the engine
thanks
maxx77
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 04/12/13 4:34 pm
The R&R rods were nicely finished, dimensions accurate, and fit in the engine without any issues.The machine shop said R&R rods has an excellent reputation,state of the art aluminum rods from a company that builds competition rods all engines and has extensive air cooled engine experience. Exactly what you might expect from $450 rods....
This is an engine used for short duration racing.. You might want to consider steel rods ,see the "Crower Rod" thread in the Triumph forum here.
You make the call,steel or aluminum.
Posted By: maxx77 Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 04/12/13 9:17 pm
thanks for the response; you are going to have your LSR motor together, and running, long before I get round to putting one of these A65s together. hopefully you'll keep us all advised. I did talk to Mike at R&R before ordering the A65 rods, and he did say that he, personally, had not seen a rod failure in either a T120/140 or a A65, and that, is the reason I bought the rods; and they do dimension out, and are to spec.. was just looking for other builders that had personal experience with these rods. I believe the rods are going to work just fine in the motors Im building, hot street... Good luck with the LSR run; great build man. Thanks again, and stay safe.. your bike is gonna be a rocket. still interested in knowing what, if anything, you have done to the cam/idler gears?? clutch basket??
maxx77
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 04/12/13 11:12 pm
The engine isn't too radical really and could be street ridden for short hops.
The whole clutch assembly is NOS 1980 Alloy Tech aluminum
The cam gears are stock Triumph.
Posted By: konon Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 04/13/13 3:38 am
I believe if you lighten your cam gears, you just weaken them anyway.--- loose more than you gain.
Posted By: Mossy Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 04/16/13 12:36 am
Re the R&R rods. I bought a set of R&R rods for my LSR. So far so good, mind I've only run one speedweek with them so far. I'm considering using them in a T140 road bike engine I'll be rebuilding soon as well.
Cheers Mossy
Posted By: phantom309 Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 04/16/13 5:59 pm
Use early timing gear as they are way lighter then late ones. late are solid and early are dished out .You wont see any problems in rods till you put them through a good work out over and over. Nothing is forever in a race motor that has been truely raced. I have seen steel rods bent in half too :-)
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 05/06/13 8:27 pm
The frame shown in the previous photos was trashed when I discovered a lot of stress cracks....It's not like I have a job so whatever...
A friend had a T140 frame ....I bought it and reassembled all the parts on the new frame.
So this photo shows the right side with some hillbilly engineering on the frame and various mounting brackets. The shift linkage work very nicely. The riders right boot toe is a few inches from the exhaust pipe exit...I'll cut off some pipe and weld on a light turn out.

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Posted By: Mike Baker Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 05/06/13 10:29 pm
Looking good, Tony.
Can you make one of those kickers for me?
Mike
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 05/09/13 11:19 pm
Yesterday was the day.........Started the bike for the first time. Started quickly,a few taps on the right hand carb to get the float working and all was wonderful.Held the engine at 2 grand or so for a few minutes. Then shut down to check for stuff falling off and oil leaks.No problems so my rider jumped with no helmet as you see the bike in the photo to make a few passes up and down the road ...
Back in the shop I adjust the carbs,check timing...The engine idles at 1200 rpm with a bit more lope then a open pipe stock Bonneville,and a lot more snarly loud when reved.It runs smoothly,starts on one very firm kick....
I could hear the engine was lean at part throttle. I expected that with hotter cams and bigger carbs.I'll replace the Norton type needles or re profile them ...

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Posted By: konon Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 05/09/13 11:28 pm
Looking good, wish you a lot of success
Posted By: Blown Income Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 05/10/13 11:12 am
Bike looks great.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 05/11/13 2:16 pm
Thanks.....and for the second time on this build the OIF has a leak....I gave up on the 71 frame shown earlier do to stress cracks.This frame,T140,looked very good. After a bit a slight oil seep appeared on the down tube where the swing arm pivot is welded.Appears to be an early T140 frame.....
I thought a OIF would free me from broken oil tank mounts and have less junk hanging on the frame......NOT!
Lesson learned,a nice appearing bare oil in frame is probably a leaker and it beats around the swap meets until a sucker like me buys it. grin
Removed the shock bolts,so the swing arm dropped down ....The leak is coming from an overlap on original factory welds.Neatly laid a weld bead over it. Checks out no leak,we shall see.....
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 05/18/13 8:28 pm
The LSR machine is more or less ready for combat.The less part is the clutch is not up for the abuse.New parts are on the way.The more is the general build and engine.It all works properly ...The engine is slightly soft on low end as expected but get on the cam around 4000 RPM and then it's light speed.
Here's a short video in my driveway with my 66 year old mind trying to figure where to put my feet.Taking it easy on the loose surface.

LSR bike

Posted By: kevin Re: LSR Triumph build begins - 05/15/16 2:51 pm
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
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your old posts are full of ^^^these mysterious non-images.

don't you realize the internet is a repository for the ages? future millenia?

in a thousand years, people will be saying, i want to rebuild my thunderbird. why didn't hillbilly bike keep his image links current?
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