Britbike forum

1962 Catalina

Posted By: Magnetoman

1962 Catalina - 06/15/16 10:08 pm

I can't remember now what prompted the obsession, but earlier this spring I decided I "need" to have a Catalina. That "need" resulted in a one-owner (before me) 1962 West Coast model arriving at my house this afternoon. It's a matching numbers bike that was shipped to Hap Alzina on 10 November 1961
[Linked Image]

This Catalina makes it three, allowing me to organize Gold Star rides with mini-packs of my friends. So, while recently a few of you, quite rationally, have been discussing downsizing your collections and/or adding electric starters I look to Keith Richards as inspiration that one need not grow old gracefully.
Posted By: Lannis

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/15/16 10:16 pm

Well, when you have a "need" (and we try not to use that 'n-word' around here, it doesn't really have any meaning or applicability), you certainly go All Out to get it taken care of.

That might be the nicest original Gold Star I've ever seen .... Congratulations! (And you don't have to use the "o-word" either ... !)

Lannis
Posted By: goodtry

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/16/16 12:18 am

I feel your pain, no happiness! Bought three more myself today. Someone has to keep the economy rolling. Nice bike.
Posted By: goodtry

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/16/16 12:22 am

I've got a few Catalinas and non have pillion loops on BOTH sides?
Posted By: Triless

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/16/16 1:07 am

What a beautiful motorcycle !
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/16/16 1:49 am

Originally Posted by goodtry
I've got a few Catalinas and non have pillion loops on BOTH sides?
I tried to get a definitive answer to this in a thread I started a year ago:

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=619717#Post619717

While valuable information was posted in the above thread the total number of bikes for which there was information was pretty small compared with the 621 Catalinas that were produced with CB32C frames from 1958 until the end five years later.

I've known this particular Catalina for two years and its frame passes all my legitimacy tests. Given that Hap Alzina had West Coast Catalinas configured with Magdynos, regulators, and wiring to make it easy to convert them to legal street scramblers it's actually surprising that all West Coast frames didn't have passenger loops on both sides. Certainly it could have been different for ones sent to the East Coast, but the above thread has very little on possible East/West differences.
Posted By: Boomer

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/16/16 1:54 am

Looks like it would do some nice cookies in that manicured lawn of that beautiful new house of yours!


Bill B... grin
Posted By: goodtry

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/16/16 7:21 am

I think the folks building these bikes at BSA had a set of rules to follow, just human error got in the way. I believe we can trace most of the errors to the frame dept. one of my Catalinas 1960 has the newer frame where the serial number is stamped on the web, and Ian said there are higher frame numbers with the old serial numbers on the neck! It would have been easy in 1961 to mess up as there was transition and new bikes like the special competition. If Mr. Frame stamper messes up, there not going to trash a frame. That's my personal theory.
Posted By: Bodger

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/16/16 8:44 am

Ohhhhh, very nice Mr Magnetoman, lovely intake box and central oil tanks, we need to get those re-mfg somewhere...

now this is what they looked like back in the day, haha.... One like this, but with Clubman tanks and seat was my daily transportation around UCSB for 2 years...various wheels, tanks, seats, exhaust pipes and carbys too, all same bike, cams maybe I ferget...lol.$700, I got took!...nah, it was perfect, all yellow tin...no lights, rowdy pipe like that, 1.5" GP..braaap! lights, never!~
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/16/16 11:45 am

Originally Posted by Boomer
Looks like it would do some nice cookies in that manicured lawn of that beautiful new house of yours!
I'm pretty sure there's a clause in the neighborhood association bylaws that allows them to crucify anyone who even thinks of starting an open-pipe Gold Star.

Originally Posted by Bodger
lovely intake box and central oil tanks, we need to get those re-mfg somewhere...
It's great that it has that intake box because, with total possible sales of only 621 (correction: 620, because I already have one), market forces aren't exactly in favor of it being remanufactured. That said, one of those shops in India producing fuel tanks certainly could be commissioned to make reproduction intake boxes at a reasonable price.

Originally Posted by Bodger
my daily transportation around UCSB for 2 years... no lights, rowdy pipe like that...
Mine was a Triumph 500 with TT pipes that I rode that way for about 2 years before being pulled over in Newport Beach on my way home from campus one night. Crossover 2-into-1 high pipes with a silencer went on as a result because I had no choice but to use that bike and take the same route.

In my horde of parts I found a pair of upper fork shrouds with "ears," a headlamp bucket, and an as-new silencer with 1-3/4" ID. The baffle at the inlet end is far enough in that it looks like it can slip far enough onto that long exhaust pipe to look reasonable. However, this morning I remembered BSA sold a lighting kit for bikes like this so I looked in the accessories catalog. As the catalog reminded me, a Bates-type headlamp attaches to a bracket that bolts across the front of the fork legs, eliminating the need to disassemble the forks to swap shrouds, and an appropriate combination light/license bracket attaches to the two bolts on the rear brace, eliminating the need to consider drilling holes in that beautiful mudguard (or buying an aftermarket replacement to butcher). This bike could be legal(ish) and on the road much sooner than I thought. However, until replaced, the knobby tires will keep me from winning any road races.
Posted By: kommando

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/16/16 11:59 am

Great looking bike.

In the UK you can keep knobbly tyres on for the MOT as long as they are for road use, then during the brake test if the tyre lets go on the roller before the brake stops the wheel you get a pass, great for getting weak 7" Single sided brakes through the MOT.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/16/16 2:56 pm

I'd forgotten how easy it is to get a bike titled and registered/licensed in my State. As long as it already had a title issued by this State it's a matter of a few signatures. I stopped at a private titling service on the way to work this morning carrying the old title that the seller had signed, and left with a new title in my name, registration good for two years, and license plate. Even though the bike hadn't been registered (i.e. licensed for use on the road, which is separate from the title that conveys ownership) for many years I didn't have to haul it in for an inspection to check the numbers or confirm its roadworthiness, pay any sales tax, or pay a fine for it not having been registered all those years.

I already have a Bates-type headlamp and mounting bracket, and I picked up an old taillight/license holder from my friend's shop that will be workable in the short term, so changing the oil is the main thing standing in the way of a short ride in the neighborhood. Rigging a battery-powered brake light will make longer rides possible.
Posted By: AG Bill

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/16/16 6:13 pm


Nice looking bike!
What size tires does it currently have?
(3.50 x 19 front, 4.00 x 18 rear)?

Posted By: goodtry

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/16/16 8:31 pm

Magnetoman, I've seen your skills on a lathe, what would it cost to make a screw for the air filter cover? Different year Catalina's had different screws. The later models were a little larger in diameter and the best looking being painted black. My lower screw is long gone. Take a look I think you'll be impressed with the workmanship of this little piece. Thanks!
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/16/16 9:45 pm

Originally Posted by AG Bill
What size tires does it currently have?
(3.50 x 19 front, 4.00 x 18 rear)?
It has a Dunlop WM2 rim on the front with a genuine 3.25x19 Dunlop Trials Universal tire, probably made when Victoria was still Queen. On the back is a Jones WM3 and on it is a Nitto 4.00x18. Actually, although I didn't give it a close inspection, I didn't see any cracking of the front tire and the rubber is remarkably supple (well, certainly not rock hard). The bike is currently in an inconvenient spot so I didn't look to see if the Nitto is new enough to have a date code on it.

Originally Posted by goodtry
My lower screw is long gone. Take a look I think you'll be impressed with the workmanship of this little piece.
Thanks for the lathe compliment. I can't imagine tackling restoration projects without my lathe and mill.

I have the bike temporarily crammed in a space in the garage where it's not easy to get at the right side. After I rearrange things this weekend I'll be able to see it.
Posted By: Irish Swede

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/17/16 1:27 pm

Ditto for me. I need two of those air cleaner cover knobs for mine, as well.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/18/16 2:21 pm

Originally Posted by Irish Swede
I need two of those air cleaner cover knobs for mine, as well.
I don't know if the air cleaner fasteners on my Catalina are the correct ones but, if they are, the following two photographs will let someone make duplicates that will fool any concours judge

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

They are made of steel of total thickness 0.41" and with smaller OD 0.38", major OD 0.95", and a flat on the outer side of dia. 0.41". The dimensions of the other one are the same to within 0.01".
Posted By: Shane in Oz

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/18/16 6:06 pm

Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Originally Posted by Irish Swede
I need two of those air cleaner cover knobs for mine, as well.
I don't know if the air cleaner fasteners on my Catalina are the correct ones but, if they are, the following two photographs will let someone make duplicates that will fool any concours judge

They are made of steel of total thickness 0.41" and with smaller OD 0.38", major OD 0.95", and a flat on the outer side of dia. 0.41". The dimensions of the other one are the same to within 0.01".


That could be good news for the Catalina owners. Those look like standard 15/16" o.d. 1/4" knurled nuts.

If BSA sourced the air clears in the UK, they would most likely have been an off the shelf item from Vokes or Amal, so they'd be 1/4" BSW. If they were sourced in the USA, they're probably Donaldson, so the nuts would be 1/4" UNC. In either case, they're probably still a standard item available at engineering suppliers or farm machinery shops.#

Ferguson T20 air cleaners may well be potential donors.




[#] Yes, I have spent way too much time playing with real tractors smile
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/18/16 7:07 pm

Originally Posted by Shane in Oz
Those look like standard 15/16" o.d. 1/4" knurled nuts.
Nothing is ever that easy. They're 2BA. However, if they are a standard item in a 1/4" thread it would be faster to modify them to convert to 2BA than to start from scratch.

Progress on the Catalina despite being assigned household maintenance duties for the day; I fabricated brackets to mount a tail lamp.
Posted By: limeyrider

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/18/16 7:24 pm

McMaster _Carr look to have quite a selection of solid hub knobs,drill and tap to 2BA as needed ?.

James.
Posted By: Shane in Oz

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/18/16 7:34 pm

2BA will be trickier, although that's a standard thread for electrical work.

It would still be worth checking with engineering suppliers, and possibly widen the search to electrical suppliers.
Posted By: Boomer

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/18/16 7:35 pm

Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Originally Posted by Boomer
Looks like it would do some nice cookies in that manicured lawn of that beautiful new house of yours!
I'm pretty sure there's a clause in the neighborhood association bylaws that allows them to crucify anyone who even thinks of starting an open-pipe Gold Star.



I'm thinking you're wasting time before you can ride it. Just stuff a snuff'or'not in the end of that pipe to make your neighbors happy and start doing cookies. I've got a few so I could send ya one.


[Linked Image]


Bill B...
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/18/16 7:49 pm

Originally Posted by Boomer
I'm thinking you're wasting time before you can ride it.
It's 108 oF outside at this very moment, and it's predicted to be a record-breaking 117 oF tomorrow (that's 47 oC). In contrast, I have my garage set at 80 oF. This is not a weekend for riding.
Posted By: Bodger

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/19/16 3:02 am

You must not be in Calif, congrats on the registration and plate..

However...if you even think the words 'Super tR...'(Hush My Mouth)(You Dint Hear This From Me) there will be a loud buzz and an evil blue light in your garage, the next morning a smoking hole where your GS was the evening before.

I have seen it happen...don't even think it!!

Boomer: haha..are you my father?..."I'm thinking you're wasting time before you can ride it."...busted.

You should give shop tours...(I have dreams of dusty vintage mc shops, how sad is that?...)
Posted By: Bodger

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/19/16 3:14 am

Does anyone remember the GS that sat in the window of that San Pedro iconic BSA dealer for so long?

..last I saw of it was in the late 70s...up on the street above the Queen Mary and the Russian submarine and the ferry terminals..haha..IIRC

This bike reminds me of that one...not that I can remember the details exactly...but it sure looks like what remnant of memory I have of it. (It was a sunday, a sunny windy day, I had just almost drowned my little brother that I'd shanghaied into a sailboat race down below there in Windy Gulch, next to the coal piles....hmmm....cough.)

Someone from here must have seen it, and probably went in there every couple weeks to try to buy it, lol.
'I'll give you $1500 for it, right now!!!'

What a beauty...and in good hands.
Posted By: pokie

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/19/16 9:56 pm

Bodger,...Was that shop in San Pedro 'Century Motors'?....proprietor, Bill Cottom?
Posted By: Boomer

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/19/16 11:18 pm

That would be Jim Hunter's shop.


Bill B...
Posted By: Bodger

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/19/16 11:47 pm

that sounds right, thanks pokie.

I went in there once and maundered around, big and sunny it was..I was but a tourist more or less.

did you know them then?
Posted By: Bodger

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/19/16 11:59 pm

yep, exactly right...bill passed in 1993, daughter Cindy a few years ago...and still in the family.

http://www.dealernews.com/dealernews/article/old-bikes-and-fresh-coffee-hanging-out-century-motorcycles?page=0,1

BSAs and Vincents and more...he , Wild Bill, started out selling bikes he had won in street races in 1936!

pretty interesting people!
Posted By: pokie

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/20/16 5:58 am

Bodger,...Yes, quite an outpost of interesting bikes and good folks. Bill had his Black Lightning displayed when I was there. He sold me a complete, assembled Brampton fork unit for a price a young cycle-trash enthusiast could afford... because Bill was just a good guy. I still have a Century Motors dealer license plate frame on a bike. His passing was a loss to the sport.
Posted By: Boomer

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/20/16 7:23 pm

Here's the full story. I had it wrong but I think Jim Hunter may have worked there.

www.centurymotorcycles.net/our-history


Bill B...
Posted By: pokie

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/21/16 11:17 pm

Boomer,..you're correct about Hunter being part of the Century shop... early '50s, methinks....until he opened his own shop. I don't know when that was, but I'll bet Feets knows.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/18/16 5:13 pm

Well, finally, three months after I got it I took the Catalina out yesterday for its first ride (I hoped). Thanks to my DocZ rollers I got it running -- the rollers completely earned their keep yesterday -- but I couldn't get the engine above idle speed. It acted like it was much too rich, evidence for which I later found in the form of a blob of soot on the garage wall behind where it had been and dry soot in the silencer.

It has a Monobloc so getting the pilot jet out and finding it blocked with varnish only took a couple of minutes (I later checked my notes but found no mention of me having looked at the pilot jet earlier this summer). After I reinstalled the jet the engine definitely behaved less badly, but it still wasn't right. So, the bike went back into the garage, the carburetor came off (which first requires removing the air cleaner assembly because the inlet tube is too stiff; followed by loosening the central oil tank and pushing it at an angle so I could just barely get the carburetor off the studs), and apart for inspection of all the passages. I found nothing amiss, but I did replace the old all-plastic float needle with a Viton-tipped one and checked the float level after assembly.

I suspect the issue was a sticky float needle but I don't know. All I do know is today the bike fired up on the rollers with no sign of the problem I had with it yesterday, and I took it for its first ride (~2 miles). It hesitates coming on the throttle (less so when warmed up) so some fine tuning will be necessary. The slide has a 3 cutaway whereas the book value calls for a 4, but the air cleaner is still off, which affects the jetting, as does the silencer I added.

One problem with doing work over a period of weeks or months is things can slip through the cracks. My notes showed I measured the dia. of the needle jet and noted the size of the main jet (which, at 330 is one size larger than the book value of 320), but there is no mention of the pilot jet or float needle. Clearly, when working on the carburetor earlier this summer I must have thought I'll look at these things next time, but the next time I must have thought I had looked at them the previous time.

Another note is that without the rollers I simply wouldn't have been able to get the bike running at all yesterday. Even were I not now hospitalized with a broken leg/knee/hip, without the rollers I wouldn't have had a clue whether the reason was the magneto (which I have yet to rebuild) or the carburetor.

As for the Catalina itself, it looks just like the photos in the first post of this thread, except for a small Bates headlight, speedometer, silencer, and tail light/license bracket. After only a 2-mile ride, and even with the carburetion not fully sorted out, it became my new favorite bike.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/25/16 11:54 pm

The photograph shows the Catalina the day it arrived at my house in June, and as it appears today.

[Linked Image]

In case anyone else wants to convert a Catalina for use on the road, starting from the front the changes I made that are visible are:

- Heidenau K60 100/90-19.
- Bates headlight and mounting bracket.
- Chronometric speedometer and cable.
- Rear view mirror.
- Silencer(1).
- Heidenau K60 4.00-18.
- Tool kit(2) temporarily attached.
- Tail light/license plate assembly.

Changes that are not visible:

- A spare 8" backing plate is at Vintage Brake to have new shoes installed and arced to the measured ID of the drum.
- New front brake cable that doesn't stretch.
- 'Catalina' decal on top of tank (thanks Dan and Bill!).
- 6 V, 5 A-hr. pack of C-cell NiMH batteries and 3 A fuse is under the seat.
- Wiring.
- Stop light switch.
- LED lights. If all lights are on the battery pack will last ~8 hrs. before needing to be recharged.

(1) With the long Catalina exhaust pipe there is no mounting point on the frame to use for a silencer. Because of this, the silencer is held only by mating of the pipes. While this seems to be completely rigid, I oriented the silencer's clamp parallel to the rear mounting bracket and then safety wired the clamp to the bracket to eliminate the possibility of the silencer slowly slipping off.

(2) This10 lb. toolkit is a duplicate of the one that evolved from dealing with problems at the Irish Rally over the past ~15 years.
Posted By: hunter h

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/26/16 7:50 pm

cheers to all On your Catalina how is the front of rear fender mounted with one clip up high and none lower as this is where the oil tank plate is welded to the cross tube. and is the rear of the fender cut or rolled. The one I have looks the same with the rear edge just a bit lower than the rear stay not like some that I have seen that are 3" longer but not as long as a clubman type?

Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/26/16 10:56 pm

Originally Posted by hunter h
On your Catalina how is the front of rear fender mounted with one clip up high and none lower as this is where the oil tank plate is welded to the cross tube. and is the rear of the fender cut or rolled. ...
My Catalina came to me from a guy who built bikes for his own enjoyment, not to win concours competitions. As an example, he put a Competition magneto on it instead of the Magdyno it came with. My concentration since it arrived in June has been to get it running and street legal so I haven't paid much attention to what might be "incorrect" on it. So, while I can tell you how my Catalina is configured, I can't (yet) tell you what deviates from as-manufactured.

To answer your questions while keeping the above caution in mind, my Catalina's fender has both upper and lower clips holding it. When I looked at my Special Competition tonight it doesn't have the lower clip but I couldn't see why the lower one is missing (e.g. if the mount for its central oil tank is in the way, whereas the Catalina's isn't). Also, the rear edge of the Catalina's rear fender is cut, not rolled.
Posted By: hunter h

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/27/16 2:22 pm

cheers all thanks for the input it all helps . my bike was a clubman but was just a frame when I got it so why not have the bike type that like . some thing like you bike magnetoman .
Posted By: Bodger

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/27/16 6:44 pm

front Bates headlight is LED?

'new favorite bike'...yep!

Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/27/16 8:09 pm

Originally Posted by Bodger
front Bates headlight is LED?
Although I called it a 'Bates' I don't see any markings on it. However, it's been in the family for nearly 50 years, looks like the bottom-mount light in an old Bates catalog, and its mount (bolted to the bottom triple tree) also is in the old Bates catalog. So, there's a pretty good chance it was marketed by Bates back in the '60s.

The light had a sealed beam unit in it. I'm not completely happy with the reflector I've used to mount the LED bulb so I have something else on order. I'll post my final configuration once I have something I like. In any case, the current configuration is more than sufficient for present purposes since I don't plan any midnight rides. Until I get the jetting sorted out there won't be too many midday rides, either...

Posted By: Bodger

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/29/16 2:53 pm

ahh, I was hoping someone had come up with a useful and available LED headlight. I have seen tractor/offroad LED lamps in car parts places but haven't noticed them or bought one to try.

You mentioned hospital/leg issues, I hope I misread that but if not all better I hope?
... good you have rollers, these can be touchy to start, haha.

I remember mine taught me the right way by pinning my kneecap against the handlebar..no lasting damage, lesson learned, discipline enabled.

Bump starts looked cooler anyway..
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/29/16 3:14 pm

Originally Posted by Bodger
I was hoping someone had come up with a useful and available LED headlight.
I have enough other things competing for attention, and no plans for midnight rides, that finding an ideal LED/reflector for my Catalina has been pretty far down the to-do list. But, I hope to have a reasonable solution to post before too much longer.

Originally Posted by Bodger
You mentioned hospital/leg issues, I hope I misread that but if not all better I hope?
... good you have rollers, these can be touchy to start, haha.
Thankfully (for me) you misread my meaning. I credit my rollers for, thus far, keeping me from a trip to the hospital with a broken knee/leg.

Another very useful feature of rollers is they let you get the oil flowing in a bike whose engine was rebuilt or that sat for a long time. With my Catalina I ran the rollers for some seconds (15?) with the compression release pulled in and confirmed oil was being pumped before I then tried to start it.
Posted By: David Cass1

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/30/16 2:41 am

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-X-80W-White-H4-9003-HB2-Cree-LED-Fog-Light-Bulb-1500LM-High-Low-Beam-Headlight-/391413190348?hash=item5b220b4ecc:g:uBQAAOSwxcRW8o83

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/H4-3-Pin-Headlight-Replacement-Repair-Bulb-Holder-Connector-Plug-Wire-Socket-/351349102473?hash=item51ce09d789:g:UdwAAOSwMgdXzZcd

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UNIVERSAL-MOTORBIKE-MOTOR-CYCLE-CRYSTAL-7-HEADLAMP-HEADLIGHT-E-MARKED-H4-Z1771-/331437426522?hash=item4d2b35c75a:g:MOoAAOxyzHxROgzS

Item 1 is an LED head light bulb

Item 2 is a universal bulb older c/w small loom

Item 3 is a universal head light c/w H4 holder and lamp- these are usually plastic bodied and can be cut using a dremel or similar around the bulb holder which can then be glued to your original head lamp back- using a glue which is removable later, does not impair or butcher the original light - which can be reinstated to conventional bulb later if needed

David C
Ireland

Posted By: David Cass1

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/30/16 2:47 am

[img][IMG]http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj548/Davidcasserly/ZB32%20002_zpsj8jjysdy.jpg[/img][/img]

ZB32 headlight c/w underslung LED and main LED headlight bulb
Original lens and reflector used- H4 holder glued to back of reflector

Requires charge of fire alarm type batteries 3 times per year for approx 1200 miles of use.

Rear lamp, brake light also in LED- horn is conventional

David C

Ireland
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/30/16 1:42 pm

Originally Posted by David Cass1
Original lens and reflector used ...
David, thanks for posting this information. But, while it's reasonably easy to assemble something that illuminates the road, the issue of reflectors and bulbs for a good beam profile is actually fairly complicated.

The "parabolic-like" reflectors Lucas gave us are designed such that the two filaments of a British Pre-Focus (BPF) incandescent bulb are in the correct fore/aft positions to project a wide pattern offset to the left/right (depending on which market it was made for) for the low beam filament, and a longer narrower beam for the high beam filament. Importantly, a reflector designed for a car, or a "universal" reflector, are unlikely to give a beam pattern that is appropriate for a motorcycle.

If the incandescent bulb in a Lucas reflector is replaced with either an LED or a halogen, and if the light emitting elements of that bulb are located in the same positions inside the reflector as the original BPF incandescent bulb, the pattern will be the same as originally intended by the manufacturer. Like you, I use the original 7" reflector in my Special Competition and have substituted the bulb with a BPF LED whose properties are described in another thread. However, as I wrote in that thread, I have yet to test the pattern at night to know if the low/high LEDs are positioned such that they provide the same beam patterns as the original bulbs.

My Catalina has the additional complication that the 5-3/4" Bates headlamp I put on it came with a sealed beam unit. So, I have to find a reflector that fits in the shell and that has the proper beam pattern for a motorcycle when fitted with an LED. My first attempt at finding a reflector failed because it didn't fit properly in the shell, so I'm awaiting arrival of one that I hope will fit. Even if it does fit, whether it provides the right beam pattern remains to be seen. Again, unless someone gets lucky, they can't simply use a random reflector with a random LED and hope to have a good beam pattern for fast night riding.

Once I get this sorted out for my 5-3/4" Bates I'll post what I found. Meanwhile, my LED solution -- with as-yet untested beam pattern -- for a 7" Lucas reflector is here.
Posted By: David Cass1

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/03/16 4:01 am

Yep- you're totally correct- my system is for being seen and not for lighting the road at night.

I generally use the under slung small LED and rear light for day time (1st position on the head lamp switch) and a secondary brake light for day time (Photo attached).

At dusk or in rain I use the 2nd switch position - which operates the main head light LE [img][IMG]http://i1267.photobucket.com/a...like%20the%20light_zpscz4uwwwd.jpg[/img][/img] D
Posted By: David Cass1

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/03/16 4:05 am

sorry - seems that the photo did not load- will try this one

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Bodger

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/05/16 3:59 am

thanks Mman and David, interesting ideas, well done.
Posted By: jawthree

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/14/16 10:34 am

Magnetoman,

I have a similar bike, a Catalina that was rebuilt for the road. One of my last jobs is to get the light working and the brake light working. Do you a part numbers for the battery pack, the brake switch, and the leds you used? I would rather copy something that works.

Thank you.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/14/16 11:17 am

Originally Posted by jawthree
Do you a part numbers for the battery pack, the brake switch, and the leds you used?
You'll find answers to two of the three questions at:

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=658820#Post658820

The brake switch came from a stock of parts I already have so I can't recommend a source for it.
Posted By: Bodger

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/15/16 5:27 pm

I haven't searched online for them, but in some Harley/chopper magazine I saw a full page advert for LED headlights, one with grill, one w/o.
I never thought the Bates were the best looking but certainly small and ready to go for 'dirt bikes' being put on the road.

These had that genetic aesthetic, the chopper/cafe movement has produced some great stuff, much better today than the Webco catalog we were mostly limited to 'back in the day.'
(The Eddie Dow catalog was more of a religious document...sorta Factory Plus.)
Posted By: flowboy

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/15/16 7:54 pm

That's one handsome machine. Makes mine look like a pile of rust..
I love the sound of a straight thru' pipe & it looks better I think but not sure my ears would say the same after a long ride, let alone what the traffic officers might say!
Great info too on the LED set-up on the other thread, thanks for that, it saves others a lot of time going over the same research.
Re. the Catalina tank, were they ever supplied in metallic red for the GS or was that only on the twins?
I've seen 2 types of these 2 gallon tanks, some with fuel taps in the usual position close to the seat end & others with taps a long way forward, nearer the centre of the tank. I assume once again that is a singles / twins variation.

Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/15/16 10:26 pm

Originally Posted by flowboy
Re. the Catalina tank, were they ever supplied in metallic red for the GS or was that only on the twins
As far as I'm aware the sales brochures only showed the Catalina tank in blue.
Posted By: flowboy

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/16/16 7:48 pm

Thought that was most likely, I've only ever seen blue tanks on the few Cat's I've seen.
Had a feeling I'd seen a list of export colours other than blue but can't recall where.
My '58 500 came with a 2 gall tank in a metallic / flamboyant red with gold lining. Definitely the original paint but the tank could easily have come from a twin.
Posted By: BritTwit

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/16/16 9:40 pm

Early (56-58) Catalina Scramblers were silver. 59-62 Catalina's Sapphire Blue. 63 Eastern Black.
63 Western brochure refers to "rich enamels", mostly Sapphire blue but I have seen a few in red.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 12/11/16 5:14 pm

A few months ago I sent Michael Morse of Vintage Brake an 8" front brake backing plate to have new shoes installed and arced to the diameter I measured of the drum. I actually sent him the backing plate from my Special Competition since it was sitting in a box thanks to the Eddie Dow TLS I have on it. Anyway, Michael always has a backlog but two weeks ago he called to say he was about to arc the shoes when he discovered one of the pivots was slightly crooked, at which point he discovered the plate was cracked. That evening I removed the backing plate from the Catalina to ship to him, which wasn't a trivial task since the bike is on a lift due to my work on its 6-spring clutch.

The good news is he called last week to say it was done. The bad news is earlier this week UPS tracking showed the box was dropped off at my house. Except, it wasn't. Unfortunately for me is I had told Michael to insure it for the $100 minimum so if it doesn't turn up I will be out ~$150 and still not have the brake.

The only way to increase the odds of the package being located is if I wasted a lot of my time installing yet another brake on the Catalina. I mean, if I just crossed my fingers and hoped UPS would find it, they wouldn't. Only by wasting lots of time doing work that would prove unnecessary if the package later turned up would there be any hope. So, yesterday went about doing that.

Making an all-day story short, after finding an appropriate backing plate amongst the wheels on a rack ~10' off the floor, polishing the worst of the oxidation off it, fighting the springs to remove worn shoes and replace them with the best set I could find, finding an actuating arm on another backing plate on that rack and painting it, etc., I installed it on the Catalina. Just replacing the wheel in the forks itself also takes time.

I finally reached the step of hooking up the brake cable only to discover that I hadn't noticed the backing plate did not have the necessary mounting point for the cable, only a plain end fastener at that location as shown in the bottom of the photograph.

[Linked Image]

Searching for the necessary component (which is also one of the pivots for the shoes) I found one on the backing plate for my M21. Unfortunately, it was at the very bottom of a pile of six wheels on the top shelf of an 8' shelving unit. Wheels double their weight when precariously stacked 8' off the ground so it took some effort to unearth it from the pile.

Leaving out the ugly details, an hour later I had the component installed in the backing plate, and the wheel back on the Catalina.

[Linked Image]

The bike is still not quite ready to ride since in the next few days a package with a Trident clutch cable will be delivered. Since it will be easier to install that cable (after modifying it) with the bike on the lift, I'll postpone for another week taking the bike off the lift and moving bikes around so I can get it out of the garage.

Sometimes progress isn't just slow, it's expensive as well as frustrating. Three months ago the Catalina had a front brake that was OK, not great. Three months, several hundred dollars, and at least eight working hours later the front brake is back to where it was on September 19 when I shipped the first backing plate to Vintage Brake (note: in case it isn't clear, none of this misadventure is the fault of Vintage Brake).


Update: actually, it was the fault of Vintage Brake. Michael hadn't updated his records and so he shipped it to my old address. Our real estate agent called my wife this afternoon to say a package had been delivered to our old house and they had given it to her and it was now being held at the real estate company's office. Conveniently, the office was on the route I take home.

Assuming there are any logical, analytical experimental scientists who aren't superstitious, note that yesterday I wrote "Only by wasting lots of time doing work that would prove unnecessary if the package later turned up would there be any hope." Twelve hours after writing those words the package is in my hands. I ask you, how can someone not be superstitious?...
Posted By: edunham

Re: 1962 Catalina - 12/12/16 11:00 am

I notice that you do just as I do for old Brit brakes- Trident clutch cable and aftermarket "wedge" fitting)I think they were Webco, I know Emgo sells them now). I cut the cable as short and direct as I can and still have room for the suspension. I have found it to make the biggest single change in braking power. I have the set up on my '67 Velo Venom. Years ago I met up with an acquaintance with a Thruxton that had just been restored by a high end shop. My Venom had the SLS brake. The Thruxton had a DLS. Before he took my bike for a spin, he was raving about the brake on his Thruxton. He came back and wanted to know what I had done, because my brake was better. The Velo gets such a noticeable result because the stock cable is pretty wimpy and way too long with a big loop in it. I also find this mod helpful on conical hubs with the cable brake light switch.

Ed from NJ
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 12/12/16 4:52 pm

Originally Posted by edunham
I notice that you do just as I do for old Brit brakes- Trident clutch cable...
As the two of us wrote in another thread:
Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Originally Posted by edunham
if you modified a Triumph Trident clutch cable...
That's an excellent suggestion. Since I own a Trident and know about its heavier clutch cable I'd like to think I would have eventually thought of this myself, but now I don't have to spontaneously think of it. Thanks.
Now that I've made a cable Stretch-O-Meter (patent pending) I eagerly await delivery of the package containing the Trident cables so I can measure their coefficient of elastostretchiness and then install them on the Catalina and BB.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 05/25/17 7:46 pm

My poor neglected Catalina has been sitting patiently for months waiting for some attention. Since it's a shame to have a bike 99% ready to ride I decided to take time from the 1928 Ariel to deal with the last 1%.

The Catalina had run really badly when I first fired it up last fall so since then I had rebuilt and remagnetized the magneto to eliminate it as a possible cause. I mentioned having done that in some other thread. I then completely disassembled and inspected the carburetor.

Even though the pilot jet wasn't blocked the bike acted as if it were so this time I looked at the pilot air passage under the microscope. I should have done that the first time I rebuilt the carburetor because I discovered a boulder blocking about half the passage (it was under the microscope so a piece of sand looks like a boulder...). It's always nice to discover a problem consistent with the symptoms, but I wouldn't know for sure it was solved until I tried to start it.

Since bikes like chokes I machined a bracket to hold a lever on the frame rather than on the already-cluttered handlebars. Then it took a few tries to get the free end of the cable the right length.

Ironically, when I came back in the house after finishing the choke installation the May issue of 'Classic Bike' was in the mailbox in which there is a how-to article on blanking off the choke hole because "The choke isn't usually necessary on Amal carbs." Right, another old wives' tale that magazine writers keep propagating.

Finally, with the carburetor installed and the tank replaced I decided to put some fuel in it to try to start it in the garage. At that point the nipple on the end of the compression release decided to come off. Anyway, with everything dealt with I tried to start it but I couldn't get a good swing because of where it was jammed in the garage.

The magneto was over a month ago but most of the above was over the past several weeks. Today I took the Catalina outside and put it on the DocZ rollers. It fired right up and I took a ~1 mile ride in the neighborhood. Even though the jetting needs some tweaking the clutch engaged and disengaged flawlessly and it's a rocket. I love the way that bike feels on the road, its sound, its power, its looks...

Back at the house I decided to drop the needle a notch and ride it again but, unfortunately, I realized I can't get the slide out without either removing the tank or unbolting the carburetor. But, since I hadn't yet replaced the air filter there was no point messing with the jetting so even though it's now only at 99.9% the Catalina is back in the garage waiting for the weekend for that last 0.1%.
Posted By: Dana_twin

Re: 1962 Catalina - 05/25/17 8:47 pm

That's great news magnetoman and yes I love the Catalina and surprised they don't carry quite the same premium as the 'street standard' goldie. By the way I may have located a Rudge Sport Special, but it's still early days yet! regards
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 05/26/17 12:09 am

Originally Posted by Dana_twin
I love the Catalina and surprised they don't carry quite the same premium as the 'street standard' goldie.
The gap isn't huge, ~20%, but that it exists at all could be because all these years American buyers have been following the lead of the English who were deprived of access to Catalinas so they sung the praises of the only Gold Star they knew, the Clubman.

Typically models at the top of any marque's range are more sought after than other models. Catalina, check. Racing models sell for more. Again, check. And rarity definitely adds to price. With only 621 Catalinas vs. countless Clubmans, double check. I wouldn't be surprised if that price gap disappears in the future.

A Catalina is a much better choice for riding anywhere in an urban or semi-urban area, and there's only one road within 30 miles of my house where the riding position of a Clubman would give it a an advantage if there were a race. But, also within 30 miles are Forest Service roads where trying to ride a Clubman would be a nightmare but a Catalina would be great.

Originally Posted by Dana_twin
I may have located a Rudge Sport Special,
So many desirable bikes, so little room in the garage...
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/03/17 6:50 pm

80% of carburetion problems are electrical...
... but that still means 20% are carburetion.

A Tale of Incompetence and Woe (but with a happy ending):

I wrote on May 25 that
Originally Posted by Magnetoman
My poor neglected Catalina has been sitting patiently for months waiting for some attention. Since it's a shame to have a bike 99% ready to ride I decided to take time from the 1928 Ariel to deal with the last 1%. ... Even though the jetting needs some tweaking ...
I understated the problem when I wrote "some tweaking." I could get the bike started in 2nd gear on the DocZ rollers (i.e. by spinning the engine pretty fast) and keep it running as long as I slipped the clutch and never let the rpms drop, because if it did drop below ~1500-2000 rpm I could only keep it barely going putt-putt-putt at a slow idle speed if I applied full throttle, with it not generating enough h.p. to increase the rpm again beyond that.

My notes show I had the carburetor completely apart three times since first starting the bike a year ago, and partially apart a few more times than that, measured the OD of the needle and ID of the needle and pilot jets to 0.0001", but it behaved like a problem with the pilot circuit. As noted in an earlier post, during one teardown under the microscope I discovered a grain of sand blocking the passage from the pilot jet to the main bore. I was sure that removing the grain would cure the problem, but it didn't. So, the Catalina continued to sit 99% done, but unrideable.

I returned to the Catalina a few days ago to try to get it ready for a long ride with a friend (with Plans B and C in case I failed) but it hadn't cured itself. I mentioned this in an email to Shane in Oz and he mentioned a number of things including asking if it had a needle with the correct taper. Well, this was the silliest suggestion anyone could have made since, after all, the guy who built the Catalina also built my BB Gold Star and a friend's ZB34/M20 hybrid, and he did an excellent job on both of those.

Having Shane's silly suggestion about the needle in the back of my mind I decided to switch carburetors completely using one of several 389 Monoblocs on the shelf. Yesterday I removed mine from the Catalina, leaving the slide assembly dangling from the cable, and then held a possible replacement assembly next to it to see if it had the same cutaway. Wait! What's this? The needle in the replacement is longer than the one on the bike!

All these months I had simply assumed it was the correct needle and hadn't checked the length (although I had checked the OD to 0.0001"). The one in the bike was a 'C' from the smaller series of Monoblocs, 0.37" shorter than the 'D' that is correct for a 389. I'd like to think I would have eventually discovered this myself, but after months of blithely assuming the needle was correct it was Shane's suggestion that focused my attention on it. Sigh...

Today the Catalina fired up immediately, ran great as I made two laps of the driveway, and even sat idling happily when I stopped in front of the garage. Finally, the Catalina is ready to start breaking in the engine, which will begin tomorrow.

In retrospect, I knew the previous owner was still rebuilding the Catalina when he died because most of the fasteners on the cycle parts were only finger tight. Although I knew the engine had run, because there was a circle of discolored oil in the center of the tank, I now realize that the size of the circle meant it had run only briefly. He would have had the same carburetion problem so he must have moved on to other parts of the rebuild after having problems getting it to run, intending to solve this later. I suspect I would have found the problem sooner had I only been working on this one bike, rather than scattering my attention among a number of bikes. Oh well, live and learn...

Moral #1. Assume nothing; check everything.
Moral #2. Some carburetor problems actually are carburetor problems.
Mroal #3. Multitasking can enhance productivity, but it also can make it harder to see some forests if the trees go by too fast.
Moral #4. It's your choice, but starter rollers are an alternative to knee replacement surgery.
Posted By: David Cass1

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/04/17 8:21 am

MM - from my ZB32 fault :-

So, 80% of carb problems are magneto, or is it 80% of magneto problems are carb? - Well, 100% of this carb problem was carb.
Following reset of magneto points, timing checks and brushes- no fault found
Removal of the carb- this time including strip down of the throttle slide - finds the needle had lost it's clip and was randomly lifting with the slide.
I replaced all and this time, I made a thin washer to fit between the end of the throttle spring and the needle clip.
Started and now running well


Is there a needle issue in general or are these 2 unrelated faults the exception.
The needle retention clip for the concentric is affected by the way the spring sits on it.

I have filed a thin washer to a shape that fits over the needle top and cable (similar to a Japanese carb)- leaving a seat for the spring to sit against - I hope that this stops further problems down the road.

I had the carb off a few times but failed to separate the needle and throttle slide - because it obviously couldn't be a needle fault could it.

Looks like 80% of carb faults are magneto or vice versa or co-incidence or all of the above

Moral #4. It's your choice, but starter rollers are an alternative to knee replacement surgery.
OR
have a 350 after the age at which your knees are likely to give out


David C
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/04/17 3:30 pm

Originally Posted by David Cass1
So, 80% of carb problems are magneto, or is it 80% of magneto problems are carb?
To be clear, this fundamental law of physics applies to all motorcycle carburetors and electrical systems, not just Amals and magnetos.

Originally Posted by David Cass1
Is there a needle issue in general or are these 2 unrelated faults the exception.
Hmm, that's an interesting question I hadn't considered before. Now that you mention it, the needle is special.

The slide moves in operation because it has a direct mechanical connection to the cable. If the cable moves, so does the slide. If the cable breaks, you immediately know it. Bench testing determines if the slide has too much or too little clearance, and after bolting the carburetor to the engine simply operating the twist grip or lifting the slide with a finger confirms the flange hasn't distorted to cause binding.

In principle, at least, the sizes of the three jets (pilot, needle, and main) can be determined from the numbers stamped on them as well as inspected for blockage on the bench. There have been vexing problems with quality control over the years so the numbers can't necessarily be trusted without confirmation, but once assembled and bolted to the engine (and assuming the pilot jet doesn't become blocked) they won't change, at least in the short term. The needle jet does slowly enlarge so it is a wear item that has a significant effect on performance, but that happens over thousands of miles.

The needle, however, is special because, unlike the slide, if its mechanical connection is broken (e.g. the clip comes off) it isn't easy to spot. Again, assuming a jet or passage doesn't become blocked with sand or varnish from fuel left in the bowl, the needle is the only component on the carburetor that can "change" in service, and change in a way that isn't easy to spot from the outside.

In my case it wasn't that the needle changed, it was that I failed to check if it was the right length. I checked the pilot jet, needle jet and slide cutaway to confirm they had the sizes marked on them, and the OD of the needle to make sure it was correct, but I didn't check the length. I only have myself to blame since I know Amal needles come in different lengths, tapers, and even diameters. Moral #1. Assume nothing; check everything.

Originally Posted by David Cass1
Moral #4. It's your choice, but starter rollers are an alternative to knee replacement surgery.
OR
have a 350 after the age at which your knees are likely to give out
Eighteen months ago an Australian loaned me a 350 Gold Star for a day. It was the only time I've ridden a 350, and I don't know the CR of the piston in it, but I don't remember it being noticeably easier to kick over than a 500. I've mentioned this before, but 15 or so years ago, to extend his riding life, Eric Cheney built a Triumph 350 twin for Bud Ekins using pistons of such low compression that it was possible to start the engine by operating the kickstarter with your hand.

It's not that rollers are an affordable option for everyone, or a solution for every situation (e.g. you can't take them with you on a ride), but they are invaluable when troubleshooting a bike that is reluctant to start.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/04/17 8:28 pm

Today is a holiday in the U.S. (Labor Day, celebrated in Sept. so as not to be confused with May Day) so I waited until after 10am to start the Catalina. After my two laps of the driveway yesterday I put the air cleaner back on since I want to sort out the jetting with the filter in place. The air cleaner should make it run richer and indeed even at driveway speeds it ran worse than today than yesterday.

I managed a couple of miles on it but it would 4 stroke when I gave it any throttle so it's too rich. Even when slipping the clutch it didn't have enough power to bring me up my long, steep driveway so I jumped off and ran beside it in the 95-deg. heat until it died (and I felt like I would) just before cresting the top. Boy, was that hard work.

It's jetted now according to Amal's specs for a "Gold Star Scram. (Export)." In particular, the slide has a 3 cutaway and the needle is on the 2nd slot. However, the Amal list for 1961 shows "B34 Scrambler (U.S.A.)" which presumably is the Catalina with its unique air filter. The list shows a 4 cutaway (leaner) and the needle on the 4th slot (richer). So, the Catalina is back up on the lift waiting me for me to recover from my ordeal and search my collection of slides in the hopes I have a 4.

By the way, handy as a Harbor Freight lift is, the recent daily foot pump routine is getting old (91 pumps to get it to full height, but who's counting?...).

You know how even before you send something, sometimes there are things you write that you know you shouldn't send, but you hit 'send' anyway? That applies to the next paragraph.

The oil I'm using to break in the Catalina is Valvoline 20W-50 4-Stroke Motorcycle Oil, SG rated as per John Healy's advice, along with 4 oz. of Lucas TB Zinc Plus. This oil has 1120 ppm of Zn and the Zinc Plus increases that by 2850 ppm/2 qts. (the capacity of the Catalina's tank) to a total of 3970 ppm. Based on its name I looked into Lucas "Engine Break-In Oil" but I was unable to find any information on its rating or additives other than Zn content (3500 ppm). After I put, say, 300 miles on the Catalina, and assuming it appears the rings have seated, I'll switch to 50W Valvoline VR1 (1300 ppm Zn), again with 4 oz. of Zinc Plus, for a total of 4150 ppm.

I hope the above doesn't cause this to degenerate into another dreaded oil thread. I only wrote it in case anyone cares to know what I decided to do to break in this engine. End of oil discussion.

p.s. messing with the needle and slide isn't easy with this bike, since the air cleaner assembly has to come off (two locktited knurled nuts plus three bolts) and the oil tank strap loosened so the tank can be moved to barely allow the carb to clear the studs. That's why it's back up on the lift rather than me kneeling on the concrete floor.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/05/17 9:41 pm

As an update, I won't have a chance to start the Catalina again until tomorrow, or possibly Friday. But, I found several 3.5 slides on the shelf so I scribed one of them with my calipers for the extra relief needed to turn it into a 4. Looking at my range of choices for removing the material I decided on a grinding stone in the drill press. It took only a few minutes, including cleaning the burrs, and it looks like it came from the factory. I checked the height when done and it's 1/4" to within at least ~0.01"

The new slide was slightly out of round near the base (~0.01"). However, I have a set of two-piece dies I made a few years ago having the IDs of the various Amal slides so I found the right one and pressed the slide with it in the vise. After doing this just once the out of round was reduced to ~0.001".

I installed the modified slide, clipped the needle on slot #4 and bolted the carburetor and air box back in place, testing that the slide operated without binding. However, given how rich it seemed to run I suspect the air cleaner element may be causing a huge restriction. So, on order for delivery tomorrow is a sheet of air cleaner foam that I'll cut into the two 4"x4" sections to slot into the box. I have coarse stainless screen that I'll also cut into 4"x4" sections to provide the support for the foam.

Offline someone suggested the air box assembly itself might represent a significant restriction independent of whether or not filter material was in place. Simplifying a bit, the conductance of a tube for room pressure air goes as the fourth power of the tube's diameter divided by its length, and the total conductance of tubes in series adds like resistors in parallel.

With its cover removed, at full throttle the Catalina's air box is essentially a 9"-long x 2-1/2" ID tube in series with the 4"-long x 1-3/16" ID of the carburetor and intake tract. So,

Conductance airbox = G (2.5")4 / 9" = G x 4.34

where G is a constant.

Conductance carburetor = G (1-3/16")4 / 4 = G x 0.50

Hence, the relative conductance of the airbox is Gx4.34 / Gx0.50 = 8.7x higher than that of the carb. alone. Therefore, the presence of the airbox (minus cover and filter) reduces the overall air flow through the system according to:

1/Total = 1/Box + 1/Carb = 1/4.34 + 1/0.5 = 2.2304

so Total =0.448, i.e. flow is reduced by 10.4% from that of the carb. alone at full throttle.

At, say, half throttle the open area of a ~1" length of the carburetor (i.e. under the slide) is reduced to ~0.6"-dia. so because of the dia.4 dependence the relative effect of the air box is much less than half of 10.4%. In any case, this shows the additional restriction of the box assembly, minus cover and filter, is small for all throttle openings.

It's more complicated with the cover in place because it is held off the main box with a 0.33" gap around three of the edges so this opening is better represented as an orifice rather than as a tube. The length of the opening is 16.5" so the total inlet area is 5.45 in.2. Oversimplifying this rectangular annular gap as being a simple circular orifice (which isn't as silly as it might seem, although I won't go into the details), it corresponds to a circular hole of diameter 2.6". Obviously, a plate with a 2.6"-dia. hole held in front of the 1-3/16" inlet to the carburetor would have no effect on the flow. Turbulence has been neglected in all of this, but the results for the air box are so much larger than for the carburetor that we won't worry about such trifles...

The above (simplified) calculations show that the restriction on the air flow through the entire Catalina filter assembly is almost entirely due to the 32 in.2 of the filter material itself. This is 33% greater than the surface area of a "standard" round Amal filter assembly like on my Triumph 500 (5" dia x 1-1/2" deep = 24 in.2). As this shows, BSA made sure a Catalina's top speed would be limited only by the rider's wrist, not by the engine's air intake.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/07/17 1:35 am

--delete duplicate post--
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/07/17 2:02 am

Originally Posted by Magnetoman
As an update, I won't have a chance to start the Catalina again until tomorrow, or possibly Friday...
After reconfiguring the carb. yesterday, today I removed the filter element from the airbox and started the bike on the rollers. It ran like crap, although when the revs built up it sounded much better. The plug was sooty and wet and the inlet to the carb was wet with fuel.

Having carefully... no, make that very, very carefully, assembled, measured, and inspected every aspect of this carburetor the two most logical explanations for the problem at low speed were that 1) the cams are mistimed, or 2) the carb. came with a hex on it that wasn't BSF. A third explanation, electrical, was less plausible not only because I had rebuilt the magneto myself but whenever the engine was barely running it ticked over regularly at what I estimated to be only ~250 rpm. That argued against a problem with the magneto.

Anyway, mistimed cams seemed the less likely of the two given the builder's excellent work on at least two other bikes, leaving the most probable scientific explanation that there is a curse on the carburetor. Since everyone knows you should only change one thing at a time when diagnosing a problem, the one thing I decided to change was the entire carburetor. I used another 389 body to build up a replacement carb using none of the pieces from the cursed carb. Well, not quite none. I used the slide I modified yesterday along with the needle now in it because neither of those came with the original carb.

Not that it matters for function, but I picked a carb body stamped 389/13 because that was used on Gold Star scramblers, albeit not Catalinas. It has a 1-5/32" bore, ever so slightly smaller than the 1-3/16" of a Catalina. The slide was a tight fit so I checked and found a very slight bow on the mounting flange. Once I flattened that with a jig (i.e. bent it flat, not ground it flat) the distortion was gone and the slide went smoothly in without problem. I used a brass float and Viton-tipped needle, and when I checked the level it was right at the dot below 'Amal'.

Although after bolting it back on the engine I was out of time to do any more work on it today, I couldn't stand the suspense so I took the bike out of the garage, started it, and circled the driveway a half-dozen times. The engine had been completely transformed by the replacement carb, even though in every way (other than the curse) it was identical to the carb it replaced. I put the bike back up on the lift to reinstall the airbox and cure a tiny leak due to not having replaced the gasket at the main/needle jet holder. When I came into the house my wife asked what I had done to it because "it sounded completely different." Unless something comes up, on Friday I'll venture further than the driveway.

With evidence like these two identical carburetors, how could a scientist not be superstitious?
Posted By: Rich B

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/07/17 9:50 am

So it isn't just me........ crazy

I went thru a similar exercise in frustration with a 389 on a twin. One cylinder was fine, the other was a mess. No matter what I tried, one cylinder would not settle down and run correctly. Since it was a twin, I just swapped the carbs. When the good cylinder now became the bad cylinder, was enough for me. Built up another 389 from the stash and replaced the crap carbie. Problem solved.

I had a lot of similar symptoms with that carbie. No one will ever have to deal with that body again laughing

Posted By: David Cass1

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/07/17 10:19 am

I had a lot of similar symptoms with that carbie. No one will ever have to deal with that body again laughing

Sleepin' with the fishes eh!
Posted By: Rich B

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/07/17 8:41 pm

More like blunt force trauma.......

Zinc body, sledgehammer, I know who is winning that battle

laughing
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/07/17 9:27 pm

Originally Posted by Rich B
sledgehammer,
My desire to figure out what is is wrong with the original carburetor is tempered by my current desire never to see that carburetor again as long as I live. However, curiosity has a way of winning with me so I attached a label and replaced it in the box with the other 389s. Although Voltaire wisely wrote that 'not everything that needs explanation, merits explanation', I've not always been able to heed his advice. For the foreseeable future, though, that carburetor is dead to me.
Posted By: Rich B

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/07/17 11:54 pm

There was a time when I would have: 1.) spent a stupid amount of time and energy to make it work 2.) spent a stupid amount of time and effort to understand why.

Now, I find I don't have the time or inclination to make it work or understand why. Fix it and move on. Guess I am getting lazy laughing

Or I would rather ride more and fix less : bigt
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/08/17 8:47 pm

First, before getting to the good stuff, who sells the best (correct size, longest lasting, best sealing,...) fork oil seals? One fork leg weeps and now is the time to take care of that.

As we left things yesterday, the replacement carburetor had completely transformed the bike, but it was back up on the lift to cure a tiny fuel leak and install the air box. The leak turned out not to be from the jet holder, but from a slightly warped float bowl cover, so I swapped it for another (not, though, taken from the jinxed carburetor).

Digression: Why is it that all 389 gasket sets contain a too-small fiber washer for the jet holder? The OD of the holder is 0.671" but the fiber washers are 0.640" ID. They're rigid fiber, not flexible O-rings, so they simply won't fit. I gripped one of them in a six-jaw collet and drilled it 11/16" (0.688"), but what do people do who don't have lathes, collets and 11/16" drill bits? More to the point, why don't retailers insist their suppliers give them the right kits to sell rather than continue to sell kits they know won't work (unless I'm the very first person ever to need this fiber washer and discover this problem with aftermarket kits)? End diatribe.

After fixing the leak by using a different cover along with a new gasket and EZTurn petcock lube as gasket sealer, I decided to see if there were any major carburetor issues before bolting the airbox back on. I lowered the lift and wheeled the bike out of the garage, and then bravely decided to try without the rollers (which were still in the garage). Tickled, ~1/4 choke, ~1/3 retarded, and eased past TDC. It started on the first kick! I savored the sound for a few moments then rode it to a shady spot, shut it off, and went inside to get my helmet and jacket.

When I came out I repeated the ritual and it again started on the first kick. I then headed out for an ~8 mile ride. I didn't go further today because there was less than a gal. of fuel in the tank and I didn't want to risk running out before reaching the nearest station. Actually, the route would have been ~12 miles but there was a police car hiding in the bushes next to the major street I would have had to accelerate onto next and I didn't want to risk breaking his decibel meter. So, when I saw him, I did a U-turn and stayed on the neighborhood streets.

The bike ran great. What a difference an identical carburetor makes...

When I got back home I adjusted the mixture and slide screws before shutting it off and putting it back on the lift to install the air box and oiled-foam filter material. Later today I'll get another 2 gal. of gasoline so that tomorrow I can venture even further.

I love it. Everyone should have a Catalina.
Posted By: Rich B

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/09/17 12:15 am

Awesome! And congrats. beerchug :bigt

I don't have a Catalina, but I do have a DB/DBD hybrid with scrambler cams. I am prejudice, but I find that an awesome combination on the twisties of this part of Ohio......
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/09/17 5:01 pm

Originally Posted by Rich B
a DB/DBD hybrid with scrambler cams. I am prejudice, but I find that an awesome combination on the twisties of this part of Ohio.
I haven't had the engine open so I don't know what cams are in my Catalina but I assume they are scrambles as well (65-2446 for both). Interestingly, that's also how the Special Competition model was configured by the factory, making these bikes more responsive than Clubmans over a wider range of throttle openings. For the riding I do in my dotage having a lot of h.p. over a wide rpm range is better than having a few more h.p. but only at WOT.
Posted By: Andy Higham

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/09/17 5:09 pm

In the real world it's not the peak BHP that matters, it's the area under the graph
Posted By: Rich B

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/10/17 11:52 pm

Here is my take with the 2446/2446 cam combination. My GS feels more like my modern appliance in the mid range than a 50's Brit bike. I know the top end rush isn't there, but I am going faster than I need to be getting into a corner. There is lots of mid-range power which is what is needed in the real world. With a DBD head and 1038 Concentric, it still pulls well when the revs are up.

Yea, I like the combination!
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/11/17 6:49 pm

The carburetion continues fighting me every step of the way. After the previous uneventful 8 mile ride the only things I did were bolt on the air box, add UNI coarse foam filter material, and top up the tank with another ~1.5 gal. of fuel. After doing this it wouldn't start. So, do I take the time to pull the rollers and battery out of the garage, or just use the steep driveway to bump start it? Thanks to bad judgment, the driveway won. Unfortunately, the problem with a steep hill is once you reach the bottom and it hasn't started you're SOL because you now have a 400 lb. motorcycle at the bottom of a hill that's too steep to push it back up.

Actually, it did start (sort of) and slowly got me 1/4 mile up the road acting over-rich but showing hints it might clear up, before it died. Failing to start it once it died I changed the plug and removed the filter material. It then started but still barely ran at tickover speed with the throttle wide open (i.e. like the behavior it had with the cursed carb), emitting big puffs of black smoke from the exhaust. It got me back to the bottom of the driveway before dying, so I abandoned it to get the pickup.

By the time I loaded the Catalina and got it outside the garage the "food poisoning" my wife had dealt with for two days was getting worse so I insisted on taking her to Urgent Care (I had insisted the previous day but she refused). After a short stop there it was straight to the hospital for the next ~26 hours until her appendix was removed. Contrary to what I thought, I learned that once a patient is hooked up to antibiotics and shows no other signs, acute appendicitis isn't considered emergency surgery. So she was bumped from the schedule three times I'm aware of. Finally, they removed her appendix 18 hours after her original date with the surgeon.

Surgery was yesterday and she's home now so at least all is well with her if not with the Catalina. However, I've been married long enough to know that for at least some days it would be foolish for me to even think of asking "Can you fetch things for yourself while I go to the garage and take care of the Catalina instead of you?" When I do get to the garage the first thing I'm going to check is if there's a pack rat nest or other hidden blockage in the filter housing.

I'm still hoping for information on a supplier for high quality fork seals.
Posted By: Rich B

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/12/17 12:06 am

Good luck to your wife on recovery....had to do that myself a few years ago.

And good plan to act disinterested in the bikes for a few days!

IME, Paul Geoff in the U.K. has had good fork wear parts. One of my A65's has had the same seals from Geoff for 11 years now and they are still dry.....

No doubt that last statement will jinx me....
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/12/17 3:36 am

Originally Posted by Rich B
....had to do that myself a few years ago.
To digress, an interesting part of the ordeal was for a half hour or so in the ER being on the other side of a curtain from a guy who was trying with all the smoothness in the world to talk the staff into a prescription for Vicodin or Oxycodone, and various staff members in succession politely and non-confrontationally not buying his story. He left with a shot of a non-narcotic muscle relaxant for his self-described muscle spasms that were too deep to be detected externally. The fact he was in their computer system played a role in not giving him a prescription.

Originally Posted by Rich B
IME, Paul Geoff in the U.K. has had good fork wear parts.
Found his web page (it's Goff). Email sent. Thanks for the tip.
Posted By: Rich B

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/12/17 9:38 am

Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Originally Posted by Rich B
....had to do that myself a few years ago.


Originally Posted by Rich B
IME, Paul Geoff in the U.K. has had good fork wear parts.
Found his web page (it's Goff). Email sent. Thanks for the tip.


Well, it is Goff unless you are using a device with auto-correct and the user doesn't catch the "correction"..........

eek
Posted By: edunham

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/12/17 4:29 pm

Best wishes to your wife and hope she recovers fully in record time. My suggestion is that you do not fall to temptation within the next few days and say "Stop goldbricking, Honey, I've got a Gold Star to fix!" A little self-sacrifice at this time will pay dividends in the long run. On the other hand, one must always be careful about setting a precedent!

Re: your carb. When I have problems with a bike, especially after recently working on it, I usually start with the assumption that I screwed something up. Usually that assumption is correct! Accordingly, if it was me, I would look at the carb again, perhaps a jet unscrewed, or the needle came off the clip or something like that. It is probably something simple.

Ed from NJ
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/12/17 4:54 pm

Originally Posted by edunham
Best wishes to your wife and hope she recovers fully in record time. ... On the other hand, one must always be careful about setting a precedent!
Thanks for your sentiments and valuable spousal advice. Adding to my misery is the Catalina is still in the bed of the pickup where I see it constantly from the house, trying to lure me into doing something I'll regret. It's all I can do not to be caught looking at it rather than looking 100% attentive.

Originally Posted by edunham
Accordingly, if it was me, I would look at the carb again,
Although I didn't do much to the bike since it ran a few days ago, my plan is to completely undo what I did (thanks to my notes, I know what that is). Removing the air box accomplishes that. If it runs without the air box that will say the problem is to the left of the carburetor inlet (i.e. somewhere in the entire universe other than within the bike itself), and if it doesn't run the problem is to the right of the inlet.


update: I was sent to pick up some chairs from Crate & Barrel so I explained it would be better to take the pickup in case the boxes were large. So, the bike is now out of the truck and back on the lift. I did, however, leave the ramps in the truck in case they are needed again once I'm able to get back to the Catalina.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/15/17 9:26 pm

Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Although I didn't do much to the bike since it ran a few days ago, my plan is to completely undo what I did (thanks to my notes, I know what that is). Removing the air box accomplishes that. If it runs without the air box that will say the problem is to the left of the carburetor inlet (i.e. somewhere in the entire universe other than within the bike itself), and if it doesn't run the problem is to the right of the inlet.
I've now determined with certainty that the problem is somewhere in the universe to the left of the carburetor inlet. Specifically, the problem is the airbox itself (probably aided by the silencer; see below).

I removed the airbox. Then, with full choke and ~1/3 retard it started on the first kick and ran laps of the driveway with no signs of 8-stroking. Since after warming up it idled I decided to replace airbox items one at a time to determine at what point the signs of richness returned. First attempt was just holding the airbox with outer screen on the carb. It 8-stroked when I blipped the throttle. Airbox with the coarse screen pieces had I cut to place on the carburetor side of the foam, as well as the outer cover. It 8-stroked. Finally, the airbox alone without even the cover, i.e. an essentially unobstructed 9"-long large diameter pipe straight in. It still 8-stroked. Huh? How can that be?

When I blip the throttle a fog of fuel comes back out of the inlet, appearing to contain as much fuel as must be sucked into the engine to make it run. This situation is not unlike what happens to a Clubman with a megaphone on resonance, where the air passes twice over the jets in the carb causing richness and requiring a 'lean' needle in a GP. In my case enough fuel must escape from the blowback fog into the surrounding air that when air is sucked back in on the next stroke there isn't enough "extra" fuel in that air to cause richness. However, even though the air flows freely through the 9"-long pipe, with the airbox in place that fog of enriched air doesn't have enough time to pass all the way back through it before it gets sucked back in on the next stroke, passes over the jets, and presents the spark plug with a way too rich mixture.

So, why is this happening to my Catalina? I have the factory jetting in it so even with modern fuel shouldn't the suggested jetting be pretty close? In light of the experimental data, I suspect the critical difference is that the factory jetting was determined for the open-pipe Catalina sold by the dealers, whereas I have a silencer on my Catalina. Despite how it sounds, my silencer must be restrictive enough that the pressure in the pipe remains high enough to cause a significantly higher blow back through the carburetor during the period of valve overlap. Either that, or there's a hidden switch on the carburetor inlet that detects whenever an airbox is attached and dumps raw fuel into the inlet. I'm going with the silencer explanation.

For now the Catalina shall remain free to breathe the open air. I'll take it out this weekend to -- finally -- begin the break-in process while seeing what tweaks are needed to the jetting to get best performance.


Update: I inspected the inside of the silencer with a borescope and found a plate near the entrance with 12 holes of dia. ~3/16" (total area ~0.33 in2), there to divert most of the flow to the annular area of filter material. I made an extension for a drill bit with three set screws to clamp the bit and used one of the existing holes as I pilot to drill a 1/2" hole. When I probed that hole I didn't find any further obstruction upstream so I then drilled four more 1/2" holes for a total area increase in area ~0.98 in.2. This means the new area in that plate is ~4x that of the original. I started the bike and this time didn't see a cloud of fuel. I then tried the bare airbox and it seemed to have no effect so I went for the full outfit (screens, foam, and cover). Again, no effect(!) when I rev'd the engine.

I can't tell how much louder I made the silencer by drilling those holes since the bike is parked between two cars and under an overhang. Tomorrow I'll bolt the air filter assembly back on. If when I'm riding it I feel reducing the back pressure some more might help it will be easy enough to drill another 1/2" hole or two.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/16/17 9:02 pm

After installing the air filter assembly this morning the Catalina didn't want to start so I dragged out the rollers. It started immediately on them and after warming it up a little with a few laps of the driveway I found the idle was set pretty high and the idle mixture screw was 2 turns out. I readjusted both, got dressed, and started the bike without the rollers (it was still warm so this wasn't a good test of cold starting). I then took it on a 10-mile ride. I would have gone further but it was clear as soon as I reached a faster road that the needle needs to be dropped a notch. However, the mixture seems to be great at smaller throttle settings, i.e. the 4 cutaway seems right.

Not wanting to break in the bike in by never exceeding ~45 mph I headed home to put it back on the lift where I could drop the needle. However, since the bike was well warmed up by that point I fiddled with the idle adjustments some more, lowering the slide further and settling on the mixture screw 1-1/8 turns out. It's not incredibly sensitive to the setting, but 1/4 turn less than that definitely causes the rpm to drop.

I had lunch and then dropped the needle a notch using a pencil (to support the clip at the top of the carburetor), 4" bolt (to support the slide assembly as high as possible), haemostat (to compress the spring), alligator clip (to support the needle so it didn't fall into the carburetor when the clip was removed), and needle nose pliers (to remove and install the clip). It's a fiddly job to do it this way but faster than removing the air box and carburetor itself.

After dropping the needle a notch. and the ignition retarded by ~1/3 (but no choke), the bike started on the first kick and I left it idling for a few minutes while I got dressed. It was still idling when I came back out and I took it for another 10 mile ride. This time the jetting was perfect. What a difference a single notch makes. What a joy it is to ride. I couldn't ride further because of an obligation this afternoon but tomorrow will try to put a reasonable number of miles on it. Oh, and I can't tell that the silencer is any louder now than it was before I drilled the holes. It's completely acceptable. To me, at least, and I hope the neighbors wouldn't disagree...

The Smiths lists don't show a speedometer for '62 Catalinas, but I have an S.525/3/N (1650 turns/mile) appropriate for a '59 Catalina on my bike. Conveniently, there's a radar speed warning display (but no camera) near my house so I now know my speedometer reads 10% low at an indicated 40 mph. That difference is within the expected variance of tire diameters (a 4.00-18 Heidenau K60 is on the rear).

addendum:
In case anyone looking for jetting to use in their Catalina comes across this thread in the future, the current configuration of my carburetor is:

Carburetor is 1-5/32" Type 389 Monobloc (as used in '56-'63 non-Catalina Gold Star scramblers)
pilot 30
pilot mixture screw 1¼ turn out
needle jet 106 (measures 0.1065"–0.1066", which my measurements show is the proper size for nominal "106" needle jets)
needle on 3rd notch
main 320
cutaway 4

Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/18/17 1:42 am

I think I've mastered the Catalina's starting ritual (no tickle, no choke, ~1/3 retard, kick through briskly 3-4 times with lifter engaged, ease past TDC, and one kick) and today I put another 50 miles on it, stopping from time to time to make notes of little issues to deal with. For example, the twist grip 'catches' slightly at ~1/4 which is annoying when starting out from stoplights or trying to maintain ~40 mph in traffic. But, overall the Catalina performed great, and I'm quite fond of the selection of ratios in its SCT gearbox. Also, for all speeds and conditions up to the maximum of 60 mph I reached today the current jetting isn't just Amal-perfect, it's Mikuni-perfect.

The six-spring clutch worked flawlessly, neither slipping nor requiring any more force than is needed for clutches on modern bikes. Also, I can pull up to a stoplight in gear and select neutral after stopping without a problem. Detailed directions are given in the currently-imageless thread on rebuilding these clutches.

I'm not sure whether or not I mention it in that rebuild thread, but in the primary I use Castrol Dextron VI ATF for GM vehicles. No real thought went into my selection of this brand or specific type of ATF, and I can't imagine a different brand for, say, Fords wouldn't work as well, but since I know this one works I'll be sticking with it in the future.

Every mile builds confidence (or overconfidence?...), but I'm not quite ready to venture outside the range of cell towers. After dealing with today's list of minor issues I have a ~100-mi. route planned next and, should that be uneventful, another ~100-mi. route to the top of a nearby mountain where at least some of it will be without cell coverage. At that point (~270 miles total) it will be time for its first oil change. I'll do the second change ~500 miles after that and then switch to some "reasonable" (TBD) regular distance and/or time intervals.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/22/17 11:15 pm

I hadn't started the bike since completing Sunday's run, but today I opened the petcock (no tickling), kicked it through 3-4 times with the compression release, eased it past TDC, ~1/3-1/2 retard, and it started on the first kick. It started with the same routine twice more, but I skipped the kicking-through part of the routine at the filling station and it failed me. The station was on a gentle slope so I bump started it. It started almost immediately

Exchange at first fuel stop with a guy at the next pump talking on his cell phone:

Guy: Nice bike, what kind is it?
Me: It's a BSA Gold Star.
G: What year?
M: 1962.
G: It's great looking. What does 'BSA' stand for?
M: Birmingham Small Arms.
G: Is it German?
M: No, it's English.
G: My friend says it's German.
M: OK.

Using Google I had planned a 100-mile route within cell phone range but it ended up at 95.1 miles (on my GPS) so I must have mis-remembered some jog early in the route. Two miles of the route were on the Interstate and I happened to merge behind a semi. That was the fastest I went and my GPS reported the maximum speed today was 63.9 mph. The handling got "interesting" in the buffeting of the slipstream so I tightened the damper a few turns as soon as I exited the Interstate (I definitely didn't feel like taking my hands off to tighten it while I was being blown around). Then, affter a 10 mile nearly straight road I made a 90-deg. turn onto another road and in the turn it felt like one of the tires had gone flat so I pulled over. The tires were fine and at that point I remembered the damper. All was fine after loosening it.

Later on the ride, when I pulled off to take a photo of the bike with mountains in the background, I discovered a tiny defect in my plan to call my wife if the bike died and I needed rescuing -- my phone was at home on the charger. Other than that tiny flaw, my plan was perfect...

The tripmeter and odometer read 14% low but the odometer has the additional feature that the ones digit sometimes brings along the tens and hundreds when it rolls over. As a result there were 81.5 miles on the trip meter but 431 on the odometer. I filled the tank shortly after I started and again shortly before the end and over the 85.5 miles between I used 1.30 gallons, averaging fully 65.8 mpg. Not bad at all. My average speed when moving was 33.7 mph, with that average held down by the total of ~20 miles of city riding.

The first piece of "bad" news from today's ride is that the annoying throttle 'catch' at ~1/4 is there when the engine is running, but absent when not, and it's internal to the carburetor. Since it's at such a well-defined position of the throttle I wonder if it's a burr or other defect in the guide "rail" inside the slide. It's annoying enough that the carburetor is going to have to come off and apart.

The second piece of bad news is the clutch slips a bit. It did not do this on Sunday so I'm strongly tempted to blame the ATF, which I've never used in a primary before. Before taking off the leak-tight primary to tighten the springs I'm going to drain the ATF and use oil instead to see if that cures the slipping. Unfortunately, if slippery ATF molecules are the culprit, and if they've insinuated their way into the cork and won't come out without a fight, the clutch will have to come apart so the plates can be cleaned with solvent. First, though, I'll see if 100 miles worth of oil cures the clutch.
Posted By: L.A.kevin

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/23/17 4:43 pm

I'm not a fan of using ATF in a primary if you're using a cork clutch. I have had good luck spraying clutches on my M20 and Dominator with isopropyl alcohol from a squeeze bottle to get rid of ATF. Might as well try it before you take it all apart. You need to rotate the clutch and actuate it a few times while spraying.

bueno suerte!
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/23/17 6:21 pm

Originally Posted by L.A.kevin
isopropyl alcohol from a squeeze bottle to get rid of ATF.
Your post gave me an idea for something to try, but my original plan didn't work. My plan had been to put ~500 cc of the appropriate solvent in the primary case, turn the clutch some number of times with the lever pulled in to separate the plates, let the solvent dissolve the ATF, and drain the solvent.

The left footpeg on the Catalina is placed so it isn't possible to fully remove the drain screw from the primary case so the ATF is currently very slowly draining past the screw. Meanwhile, I put some fresh ATF in the bottom of a container and tested which solvent dissolved it. Unfortunately, ATF is immiscible in isopropyl, acetone, ethanol and methanol. I didn't test MEK or trichloroethylene since I would be reluctant to use them for fear of possible effects on the primary cover gasket and sealants, if nothing else.

Although common solvents are out, good old 50W Valvoline came to the rescue. It turns out that AFT dissolves in oil. So, once the ATF has fully drained I'll fill the primary with engine oil and let it remove the remaining ATF from the plates as I ride. If there is an improvement in the clutch after the next 100-mile ride I'll probably drain and refill the primary again when I change the oil in order to eliminate the residual ATF. If not, I'll have to open the case and deal with the clutch.
Posted By: Andy Higham

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/23/17 6:58 pm

Assuming of course the clutch slip is caused by the ATF
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/23/17 7:14 pm

Originally Posted by Andy Higham
Assuming of course the clutch slip is caused by the ATF
Although my fingers are crossed hoping that oil is the answer...
Originally Posted by Magnetoman
I'm strongly tempted to blame the ATF,
...I'm mentally prepared if that doesn't work:
Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Before taking off the leak-tight primary to tighten the springs...

Posted By: L.A.kevin

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/23/17 8:53 pm

Everytime I've tried ATF in an old style cork clutch, it's caused slippage. Newer clutches (composite types like I had on my commando) seem to like it.

Good luck, and remember, there's always the triumph 4 spring conversion.

K
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/23/17 11:20 pm

Originally Posted by Magnetoman
the annoying throttle 'catch' at ~1/4 is there when the engine is running, but absent when not, and it's internal to the carburetor.
Offline Shane in Oz made the reasonable suggestion that maybe the slide was being sucked against a ridge in the bore when running so when I took the carburetor apart I looked and felt for signs of any such wear, or any hesitation of the slide when it was pushed against the inlet or outlet side. However, the bore was as smooth as a baby koala's behind. Disappointed that I couldn't find anything I could identify as the possible source of the 'catch' I reassembled the carburetor and attached the air cleaner assembly again. I'm going to have to buy a new supply of Loctite if I have to do this very many more times.

Originally Posted by Magnetoman
I'm going to drain the ATF and use oil instead to see if that cures the slipping.
225cc of ATF had gone in, there hadn't been signs that even a drop had leaked since then, but only 190cc eventually drained out. So, 35cc is MIA.

I took the bike out for a 5-mile run. There was no sign whatever of the 'catch' in the throttle so I can only hope that whatever I don't know that I did to the carburetor permanently fixed it. The clutch still slips but I'm going to drain the primary in the hopes the missing 35cc of ATF is now mixed with the oil, refill it, and take the Catalina on a 100-mile ride tomorrow.

Update: It turns out by loosening the four bolts holding the footpeg bracket it's possible to move it enough to allow the the primary drain screw to be removed. Which is good because otherwise it was going to take until Christmas for the engine oil to drain from the case. Again only 190cc came out, which means the other 35cc is pooling at a slightly lower spot. It also means that the 225cc of oil I put in after draining the case this morning still left the mixture with 16% ATF (35/225=0.155). With the new oil the ATF is now down to 2.4% (.155x.155=0.024).
Posted By: Jerry Roy

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/24/17 1:23 am

Originally Posted by Magnetoman
. It also means that the 225cc of oil I put in after draining the case this morning still left the mixture with 16% ATF (35/225=0.155). With the new oil the ATF is now down to 2.4% (.155x.155=0.024).



LOL, If a grasshopper can hop half way to a plant on each hop, how many hops will it take for him to get there? crazy

JR
Posted By: L.A.kevin

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/24/17 3:29 am

Would that be Zeno's grasshopper?
Posted By: Jerry Roy

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/24/17 5:16 pm

Yep, being chased by a pair o' ducks. whistle

CZ
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/24/17 10:13 pm

I didn't quite make the full 8000 ft. altitude today because my ventilated jacket wasn't quite up to the early fall temperature near the summit. The real reason is an event at the top made for very heavy traffic. Although the scenery was great being stuck in the line of vehicles snaking up the mountain wasn't. However, after I turned around near the top of the mountain I had ~5 miles of clear road until I caught up with a line of downhill traffic. Although the road was asphalt, the Catalina was completely in its element flicking back and forth on the tight, relatively slow turns. Anyway, thanks to another 76 miles today there are now ~250 miles on the Catalina so it's back on the lift waiting for an oil change. I'll do the next one ~500 miles from now.

The mysterious 'catch' in the throttle at 1/4 did not return today. However, replacing the ATF with oil did nothing for the clutch slip at the start of the ride, although within 20 miles I could almost convince myself it was cured. Now that I'm back I almost can convince myself to give the oil more time to work. Sadly, though, it looks like the 100% leak tight primary gasket will have to come off. After I clean the plates with a solvent that removes ATF I'll add 20% to the clutch tension just to be sure. The clutch lever is light enough that another 20% won't be objectionable. Also, the fork seals I ordered from Paul Goff arrived yesterday so I might as well take care of the forks so I can then declare the Catalina 100% done.

There's lots of speculation, but no reliable information, about if and by how much timing should be altered for today's fuels. Some sites say modern fuel "burns slower" so the timing should be retarded, but offer no references or data to support that claim. Anyway, when I installed the magneto after rebuilding it I set the Catalina's timing at 39-deg. If I forget to retard it when I accelerate out of a tight corner at very low rpm I can hear the engine ping until it builds up a few revs. But, otherwise not, so the timing isn't significantly off, if at all. On several long uphill stretches today, and with the engine above 2000 rpm (there's no tach), I held a steady throttle as I retarded the spark. I felt no effect until the lever had been moved by ~1/3 of its travel, at which point the power started to fall off. These experimental observations aren't conclusive, but they are consistent with modern fuel burning at essentially the same rate as ancient fuel so that handbook timing values still apply.

Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/26/17 3:36 am

After changing the oil today I measuring the present clamping force of the clutch (11 ft.lbs., as it was when I set it months ago.), then removed the primary cover, cleaned the clutch and assembled it with a clamping force 36% tighter than before (15 ft.lbs.). The force at the clutch lever is still less than that of my Triumph 500 so it shouldn't be objectionable. Once I know whether or not this fix has taken care of the slipping I'll revised the relevant information in my 6-spring clutch rebuild thread.

The primary oil level comes to the bottom of the chain so only gets splashed around when the engine is running. Since the clutch plates are clamped together the only time that splashed oil has a chance to enter between them is when stopped at a light if the clutch lever is pulled in, or the brief time when shifting between gears. And, even then, centripetal force of the spinning plates acts against oil making it in. Given this, perhaps should have waited longer to give the engine oil a fair chance to displace the ATF from between the clutch plates.

Posted By: triton thrasher

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/26/17 5:26 am

I've always found that if there is oil in a primary case, it will get onto the plates and they will stay oily.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/26/17 7:07 pm

Originally Posted by triton thrasher
I've always found that if there is oil in a primary case, it will get onto the plates and they will stay oily.
I certainly believe that. It's just a question of how long it takes to fully get in there as well as to displace whatever was already there (e.g. ATF).

A year ago Dave-NV briefly described how he applied gaskets and I copied his method at that time on both the Catalina and BB. Neither leaked a single drop since then (although, see #9 below), and when I removed the Catalina's primary cover yesterday the gasket came with it to be reused as Dave said it would.

After tightening the clutch (~1 ft.lb. additional torque/0.5" travel of the operating arm for every 1/4 turn of the nuts as described elsewhere) I cleaned the exposed face of the used gasket and the flange on the engine, applied Permatex to each, and bolted the cover back on. I gave the Permatex 24 hours to set before putting oil in because I didn't want to add oil immediately and the next opportunity to do so was today. It appears to be leak tight, but the real test could take a week or more before enough oil can find its way out, collect on the frame, and drip onto the floor.

In case anyone cares, my implementation of Dave's sealing procedure when starting with a fresh gasket is:

0. Clean residue from screw holes using 1/4-20 and 5/16-18 BSW taps.

1. Thoroughly clean both flange surfaces.

2. Apply Yamabond 4 "Semidrying Liquid Gasket" to the cover.

3. Stick the composite (not paper) gasket to the Yamabond, using a knife to remove any excess. (n.b. Yamabond is applied only between the cover and one side of the composite gasket; not on the "top" of the gasket that mounts against the engine.

4. Mount the timing cover on the engine using "reasonable" torque on the screws to press the composite gasket firmly into the Yamabond and cover.

5. Let sit overnight.

6. Carefully remove the cover from the engine.

7. Scrape away any excess Yamabond that has oozed out while also cleaning the flange on the engine.

8. Apply a thin coat of Permatex "Permashield Gasket Dressing & Sealant" to both the "top" of the composite gasket and the engine flange.

9. Allow 20-30 min. for the solvent in the Permatex to evaporate. This is important! I didn't wait the first time I used Permatex a year ago, because I hadn't bothered to read the instructions on the tube, and the cover had a slow leak

10. Mount the cover, somewhat tightening the screws in a criss-cross fashion, then repeating to the final torque. I use a torque wrench for this, tightening to 2 ft.-lb. the first time, then to the final 4 ft.-lb. on the second pass.

11. After 10 min. retorque the screws to 4 ft.-lb.
Posted By: Andy Higham

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/26/17 8:37 pm

I bought some cork primary gaskets thinking they would be an improvement over the paper type, WRONG. The screws need forever tightening, the case still leaks and the gasket tries to squeeze out.
P.S. I bought a pack of 6mm x 10mm fibre washers, they fit snugly over the drain and level case screws to prevent a drip there. I use the generic form of "Yamabond/Suzukibond " etc it is called "Threebond"
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/27/17 5:47 pm

Originally Posted by Andy Higham
I use the generic form of "Yamabond/Suzukibond " etc it is called "Threebond"
There are several varieties of each of these sealants (e.g. ThreeBond 1104, 1184, 1215, ...; Yamabond 4, 5, 6 ...) with different properties. While more than one of these might work fine for sealing cases, and while one of the ThreeBonds probably is identical to Yamabond 4, all I know for sure is Yamabond 4 works for me. Not a drop of fluid leaked out of the Catalina or BB after nearly a year of sitting and operation, and it held the gasket to the cover when I removed it allowing me to reuse the gasket.



Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/17/17 12:41 am

The friend who sold me the 1928 Ariel and I put ~1200 miles each on the BB and Catalina Gold Stars. I had just done 250 break-in miles on the Catalina so I've included that in the mileages that follow in case anyone finds the information useful.

Catalina Gold Star:

A too-short lead to the NiMH battery pack broke at ~300 miles. That evening I soldered a longer lead on it to better resist vibration and it was fine after that. At roughly the same mileage the ferrule came off the end of the compression release cable but I was able to fix it with a clamp-on ferrule. I noticed one shock leaking oil so it will get a pair of new shocks.

At ~750 miles the Catalina shed 2/3 of the silencer when the weld between the entry pipe and the larger main silencer broke. I was following by ~4-6 car lengths so there was plenty of time to dodge it as it bounced down the road. At that point the Catalina sounded like the most powerful bike in the State. I had hoped the no-name muffler was strong enough to survive unsupported at the end of the long exhaust pipe, but obviously it wasn't. I'll have to come up with another solution, possibly involving an ugly support bracket, for whatever replacement muffler I put on it.

Bubba at the local car and tractor repair shop hadn't yet shown up at work that morning so I had to return later because obviously they wouldn't let me use their welding equipment. He was there when I returned and MIG welded the muffler for $35. However, his weld lasted only ~30 miles. Rather than risk having the engine run lean, and not wanting to mess around with the jetting because it takes so much time to gain access to the carburetor on this bike, a tie down strap, later aided by safety wire, got it the next ~150 miles where a hardware store had what I needed to make a splint. I got them to cut a large shelving angle bracket into two segments and I attached them with four large hose clamps.

I had changed the oil prior to starting the ride (i.e. at 250 miles) so having reached 500 miles on this ride (750 since the engine was rebuilt) I changed the oil again. The chain had stretched enough that it needed tightening but I found no other issues when I carefully checked it over.

At ~800 miles the taillight/licence plate assembly vibrated off when the two steel brackets I had fabricated for it cracked. I had not wanted to drill additional holes in the mudguard to bolt the assembly directly to it and had thought my brackets would be strong enough. I still don't want to drill holes so I'll have to make an even more robust set of brackets that make use of the existing holes.

At ~900 miles my friend inadvertently put the choke full on at a gas stop that was 1/2 mi. from our final stop that day and when later trying to figure out why it suddenly was running badly, and before I noticed the choke lever, I changed the plug and found the gap was 0.024", whereas I always adjust them for 0.018". This means that in ~900 miles the remagnetized magneto had eroded the center electrode by 0.006". I count that as a good thing since I'd much rather have a Gold Star that starts first kick at the cost of having to regap the plug every 1000 or so miles than have a weak magneto that allows the plug to last forever despite needing dozens of kicks.

The head steady bracket lost one of the top bolts and fractured at the other one at ~950 miles. I had my friend continue that way for the next 75 miles where the hardware store had the necessary 5/16" bolts with nyloc nuts and large washers. Using those along with a large nut and a washer to simulate the lost spacer I clamped the head steady back into place.

Somewhere around 950 miles the primary oil filler plug disappeared so I used a strip of duct tape to seal the hole.

At ~1050 miles the Catalina developed a loud rattle when the engine was reved. I couldn't identify where it was coming from (primary chain?) so to avoid possible expensive destruction we loaded it in the trailer. Already several days earlier my friend had decided to ride in the truck the final 300 mile slog back to base so this only cut his ride short by ~50 miles.

General comments: The low gearing of the Catalina means it's happiest below ~50 mph, becoming fairly buzzy at higher speeds. If I planned to use the Catalina again for covering significant distances on the open road it would need larger engine and/or gearbox sprockets. Also, the short footpegs aren't very comfortable for long distances and they are mounted a few inches forward of the ones on other BSAs so there isn't room for a boot to easily operate the gearshift lever. I'll weld a ~2" extension on a spare gearshift lever to give the same gap as on the other machines (exact length TBD). The Catalina draws lots of attention (truly an "old man magnet," as my daughter termed it), especially with the aggressive-looking Heidenau semi-knobbies. However, the tires have plenty of traction for what was pretty sporty riding at times.


BB Gold Star:

It has a problem with a false neutral between 2nd and 4th at speed that I hadn't noticed at the lower speeds it had been ridden before. One hard push of the lever from 2nd finds neutral and a second hard push finds 4th, after which lifting the lever gets 3rd. A too-soft push also finds neutral, but one that's just right gets it into 3rd. As lower speeds the problem isn't present. I'll have to figure out what is causing this problem and deal with it in order to make this bike about as perfect as any bike one could hope to have.

Somewhere around ~450 miles signs of oil from the BB's rocker box started appearing and at that point I found none of the rocker box bolts were very tight. I tightened all of them by ~1/8 to 1/4 turns ea. as well as the 4 bolts on the drain plate plus the hose clamps on the oil lines. I wiped oil off everything to make it easier to spot if there are any other leaks. This cured the top end oil leak.

The speedometer is fine up to ~55 mph but then starts getting wonky, with the needle swinging ever more widely as the speed increases. The odometer and tripmeter are accurate to 0.5% but the tripmeter got progressively harder to reset starting at ~500 miles until at ~650 miles I quit trying to reset it. The tach served as an excellent speedometer (3000 rpm = 50 mph according to my GPS).

The only time I needed the lights was on the last day when I made an early start. The LED headlight bulb makes the bike quite visible to oncoming traffic but the beam it throws is far from ideal for riding at anything over ~45 mph.

General Comments: The BB is a real trooper. It has plenty of h.p. and, with rare exception, starts on the first kick hot or cold. Its high gearing is great everywhere (redline at 110 mph) and it feels like it could cruise at 50-55 mph forever (it did so without any sign of distress for 300 miles on the final day). Routine maintenance of both bikes consisted of checking the level in the oil tanks, looking for loose bolts and signs of oil leaks, and lubing the chains ever 200 or so miles, The range of both Gold Stars is ~120 miles at 50 mph; less when riding fast on twisty roads in the hills or in a strong headwind. If the trip meter hits 100 miles and there isn't a town in sight it's time to start getting nervous.

Posted By: Kerry W

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/17/17 8:53 am

Hmmm...youre making me want to get another BB and set-it up soft and tall-geared..
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/17/17 6:36 pm

Originally Posted by Kerry W
Hmmm...youre making me want to get another BB and set-it up soft and tall-geared..
For me, my 1954 BB in 'Road Model' configuration hits a sweet spot of performance/handling/comfort/reliability, and so has become my favorite classic bike for actual riding. It does everything I'd like a bike to do, and does it quite well. It has the same frame and handling as a DBD, and even if it had twice the h.p. it wouldn't make it up a mountain road more than a few sec. faster. It just did the equivalent distance of John O'Groats to Lands End and back to London with a trivial amount of maintenance and it's hard to ask more than that from a bike that's over 60 years old.

I have the Catalina on a hoist so will open the primary to see if something in there is the cause of the rattle that caused me to put it on the truck. But, other than that, my attention will turn back to rebuilding the Ariel for the Cannonball. When I do get back to the Catalina I'll consider gearing it up a bit (I don't have my notes in front of me, but I do know it has an 18T engine sprocket vs. 21T on the BB) but I'm inclined to leave it as is.


Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/18/17 9:42 pm

Originally Posted by Magnetoman
At ~1050 miles the Catalina developed a loud rattle when the engine was reved. I couldn't identify where it was coming from (primary chain?)
Before abandoning the Gold Stars in favor of the Ariel I wanted to locate the problem. There are three bolts that hold the inner primary cover to the engine and, since they were safety wired when I got the bike, I didn't check them. However, as I've subsequently learned, the previous owner was very delicate when tightening bolts and all three were only tight-ish. That, coupled with the single fastener that bolts the rear of the assembly to the frame having become quite loose, the covers were able to rattle against the lug on the frame. For what it's worth, although the primary cover nicely held the oil for ~1200 miles it was surprisingly dirty looking given that it doesn't have to do much other than splash around on the chain. From now on I'll change the primary oil every 750 miles.

I went through my box of spares and found engine sprockets in all sizes from 16 through 21 so I'll swap the current 18 for a 21. That alone will move the point where vibrations get objectionable from ~50 mph up to 58 mph. When I swap the current SCT gearbox for the correct ASCT I have on the shelf (same ratios) I'll put a larger sprocket there as well to move that point up to ~65 mph (I don't know what sprocket is on the gearbox now)(*). That should still leave a reasonably low first gear for fire trails in the mountains while making the Catalina much more friendly for highway use.

(*) After removing the inner primary cover I found the gearbox sprocket is 19T which already is the higher of the two possibilities (the lower is 16T). I also found the engine mounting stud that is hidden between the inner primary on one side and the oil lines on the other was missing a nut so it wasn't doing anything to help minimize vibration.
Posted By: flowboy

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/23/17 11:41 pm

Nice to hear tales of bikes in actual use.
I'm not surprised the unsupported silencer broke from vibration. Had a similar issue with an ES2 on a long run, that shed most of it's silencer which was better supported (supposedly!) I've seen various bikes with silencers supported with a length of stainless steel rope strung from the top suspension bracket or similar spot. Looks kind of OK as it's thin & not very visible from a distance, if you're trying to avoid something too bulky looking. Fittings can be quite discreet.
Used to have problems on a rigid ZB32 that broke the silencer mounting bracket a few times. I went thicker & heavier & it kept breaking them! * Ended with a lighter stainless plate & that remained on the bike many years.* Seemed to flex a bit rather than be too strong & stiff.. Have seen similar brackets made "doubled up" with 2 pieces of thinner material - just bolted up to fitting, not welded or brazed together.

* It may be that I was lucky to use a grade of stainless that was just right for the job in terms of ductility & hardness. It came out of some scrap so unfortunately I don't know what grade it was.

Of course the simple solution is ditch the silencer! Can't beat the sound of a straight thru' pipe (if your ears - & the neighbours / police - can stand it...)
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/24/17 4:30 am

Originally Posted by flowboy
Nice to hear tales of bikes in actual use.
I'm doing my best to add road dust to them whenever I can, as a complement to the garage storage dust. Although the two Gold Stars were "modern," this recent 1200-mile ride was a sort of mini-Cannonball learning experience in keeping two bikes and me on the road day after day.

Originally Posted by flowboy
I'm not surprised the unsupported silencer broke from vibration...
Two potential solutions were delivered today, both with Emgo labels. One is a perforated pipe/baffle that fits in the exhaust pipe leaving it looking like a straight through pipe. Whether or not it reduces the exhaust noise significantly remains to be seen. The other is a shorty silencer with a nut welded to the side making it easy to connect a support to the nearest part of the frame. Whether or not it can be done in a way that doesn't look crude remains to be seen. Also in today's mail was a new set of shocks to replace the leaky ones on the bike.

I'm using this opportunity to swap the current SCT gearbox, incorrect for a '62 Catalina, for a correct ASCT that I've had on the shelf for years. I have the ASCT apart, cleaned, and am about to reassemble it with whatever new bearings and bushings it needs. Once it's installed, that will leave just the forks to rebuild with new seals and the bike will be good as new and ready for more road dust.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/30/17 2:51 am

Although the following may be common knowledge, a search found only a few posts that touched on it.

Earlier this week I stopped at Home Depot and bought a 5 gal. plastic bucket. There were a few types of lids for it and I picked the expensive one with a ring that "permanently" snaps on the bucket but has a large center section that unscrews. Gunk suggests a few chemicals to dilute it with, like kerosene, but after 10 min. with google and the telephone I was unable to find any other than pure (expensive) stuff in small quantities for camping stoves. Since diesel is essentially kerosene, that's what I used instead. I poured 1/2 gal. of Gunk degreaser(*) in the bucket and then added 3 gal. of diesel for a 6:1 dilution.

Gunk calls for 5:1 to 10:1 dilution and I intended to add 4 gal. of diesel but it foamed so much in the bucket I didn't realize I had so little until after I turned the pump off. No matter, 3 gal. was just fine for now. When I got home I dropped the ASCT gearbox case in it that was coated with hardened grease and dirt. I already had the Gunk so the total price including diesel was ~$15.

Two days later I opened the container and the case looked great. The solution was warm because I had left it in the sun and I don't live in Canada. Although there were a few nooks and crannies with grease where it had been especially thick, it took less than 5 min. with a stiff brush to deal with them. I'm sure had I left it in longer the brush wouldn't have been necessary. I put the case back in the bucket because I couldn't work with it for another day and then I got a set of empty B31 engine cases down from the shelf and determined that almost certainly both of them would fit together in the bucket, and certainly separately the halves would fit.

I removed the gearbox after three days, hosed it off, and it looked essentially new. I've now tried leaving parts in the solution for only half a day and get similar results. In addition to the "macroscopic" globs of hardened grease apparently there is a "microscopic" film of grease everywhere that dulls the surface and the solution dissolves that film to leave the Al bright enough to look great if not quite up to concours standards.

I like to avoid chemicals on my hands if possible but the first time I pulled the cases from the container I used an old set of gloves that turned out to leak so my hands were covered with diesel. Unlike the situation with gasoline, I washed once with soap and the smell was essentially gone.

Diesel/Gunk in a 5 gal. bucket is now my preferred degreasing method.


(*) I used "Gunk S-C Super-Concentrate Degreaser" because I had it on hand. Other versions of Gunk might work better, worse, or the same.

Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/30/17 9:03 pm

The assembled ASCT gearbox is on the bench having 4 speeds and with the Yamabond setting. A few notes on correctly assembling a gearbox that others might find useful:

1. Assemble the collection of parts in the way you know they should be assembled, not following instructions because that's how we do things, and it's the fastest way to have it back together.

2. Discover a few leftover parts in the tray.

3. Disassemble gearbox to start over.

Or, just jump straight to step 4.

4. Read and carefully follow instructions, step-by-step. As for instructions, I can recommend those by John Gleed in the June/July 1987 issue of Classic Mechanics magazine (which I realize not everyone will have access to, but I'm recommending anyway).

Prior to assembly I found it easiest to count the teeth and write the number on each gear. Then, referring to a BSA chart, it was very fast to assemble them in the right order on the correct shaft.

Not apparent from the parts list or the above instructions are the thickness and correct locations of three thrust washers:

--The 0.108" washer goes between the 'B' gear and the back of the case.
--The 0.093" washer goes between 'F' and 'H'.
-- The 0.113" washer goes between 'H' and the bearing.
--The 0.068" (or 0.075") washer goes against the bearing, behind the kickstarter ratchet.

Instructions for a standard shifter cam plate (i.e. not a reversed one for an RRT2) say to align the red dot on the shifter quadrant with the red dot on the inner case and then, when the gearbox is in neutral, push the inner case into place to mesh the quadrant teeth with those on the cam plate. Almost certainly the red paint is long gone, but there are distinct indentations in both locations where it used to be. However, make sure the indentations are aligned when looking at the gearbox straight-on, not when it is below eye level sitting on the workbench. If you do the latter you'll find the gearbox has less than four speeds until you take it apart and do it over...


Posted By: Rich B

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/31/17 1:07 am

Years ago on this site, Dave Kath and maybe GS Ron (RIP) had shared a fair amount of info about pre-unit gearboxes on this site. I saved the text somewhere. shocked I will see if I can find it and post it.

Though some I may have just printed and put in my book. Amazing the old posts I find that way......
Posted By: Rich B

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/31/17 12:11 pm

I found the saved post from a number of years ago. By reading it, I believe it was Dave Kath who made the post though for some reason GS Ron may have been involved as well. I may have combined posts from both into one document for my use.

I have posted it as a sticky for future reference
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/31/17 2:20 pm

Originally Posted by Rich B
I have posted it as a sticky for future reference
That information deserves to be a sticky because it is very useful, if not essential. Although a lot smaller than the engine, with 129 parts the gearbox is more complicated (the engine has ~25% fewer at 103).
Posted By: Dave - NV

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/31/17 7:06 pm

I'll add a bit to MM's good tranny assembly info ... It's easy to select the different gears in a partially assembled tranny to insure the proper selector 'timing'. First clamp the tranny in your shop vise for assembly. If you haven't replaced the serrated jaws in your vice with alu, protect the tranny lug with a rag.
Back off the spring loaded detent adjustment for ease of movement of the selector cam. Then using a large straight slot screw driver through the opening in the center case you can pry on the cam gear shifting the gears manually peering in the hole noting which notch the detent is in.

The alignment of the 'red dot' on the selector can be deceptive I've learned. (the hard way!) Always insure the tranny shifts properly while it's in the vise.
I'll add .. When a reverse cam plate is fitted the dot is of no use. Merely select 4th gear rotating the cam, insuring the selector arm just clears the top of the slot in the center case, then fit the outer cover. Make sense?

Another tranny hint .. Always double check the grub screw in the case on the shift fork rod is tightened. (I've learned the hard way on a CA mountain road with a tranny that wouldn't shift properly!) A dab of gasket sealer on the head works well. No LockTite! And speaking of that grub screw .. One of you GSrs suggested replacing the awkward to get to OEM grub screw with a hex socket set screw and use a long ball ended allen wrench. Works great.

Someday I'll tell about my adventure fitting a Nova 5 speed gear set. aarrgh
Posted By: Andy Higham

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/31/17 7:25 pm

"Someday I'll tell about my adventure fitting a Nova 5 speed gear set. aarrgh"
I fitted a Nova 5 speed, No dramas
I downloaded and followed the instructions. Relieving the case to clear the camplate and footprint was the most difficult bit.
I'm lucky I have a lathe and milling machine so things like boring bearing housings are a doddle
Posted By: Andy Higham

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/31/17 7:29 pm

I also fitted a Nova 5 speed into a plunger twin shell. That was a challenge, It involved welding bits to the shell and fitting a later sandwich plate.
This gearbox is bolted to the back of a Greeves 360 challenger engine with a Newby clutch and belt drive
Posted By: Rich B

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/31/17 11:26 pm

Dave, if you don't mind, I will add your latest info to the sticky thread on the pre-unit trans.

I have some other stuff I have saved over the years, I will start stickies as time permits. May as well make the info easy to find.
Posted By: Dave - NV

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/01/17 10:16 pm

R: My comment on my difficulties fitting a Nova 5 speed ... I had spent a bit admiring the Nova gearset. A work of art at the 'jewelry' level seemed to me! BTW, Nova's instruction sheet was very precise and informative.
Anyhow, I had problems shifting with the assembled box in the vise that ran me around for awhile. After a bit of head scratching (two days later) I found I had screwed up. I had fitted the 'B' gear on the layshaft the wrong way around, as there was a subtle difference side to side I hadn't previously noticed. aarrgh
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/08/17 4:30 am

Although my plan was to have the Catalina finished eight days ago so I could turn back to working on the Ariel, I'm now very close so I'll count it as being on schedule.

The ASCT gearbox has been sitting on the work bench since I finished rebuilding it some days ago. In the meantime I did put new Hagons on the back and took care of a few small things, but today I finally pulled the SCT from the Catalina and replaced it with the ASCT. Following dave - NV's procedure the primary cover, gasket, and Yamabond are bolted to the engine to set overnight, leaving only the clutch and larger engine sprocket to be installed in order to finish the Catalina. Somehow the clutch rod managed to go missing so I might have to make another one if it doesn't turn up (shortened, for the SRM pushrod bearing), but I have spares to sacrifice.

As I mentioned in an earlier post a Catalina's footpegs are 2-1/4" further forward than on a "standard" Gold Star (8-1/2" from the swinging arm pivot to the footpegs vs. 6-1/4" on my BB). Since the gearbox is in the same position on both this means there is only a small space between the footpeg and the shifter on the Catalina. In light of my friend's 1200 miles of experience on the bike I've welded a longer shifter to open up that space. The shortest distance between footpeg and shifter centers I measured is 5-1/4" on my Triumph 500 and the longest is 7" on my BB Gold Star, with several others between 5-3/4" and 6" so I made the new one for the Catalina to be 6-1/8", resulting in a 6" distance in front of the footpeg. This will increase the amount it has to move to shift gears so it remains to be seen how it feels in operation.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/10/17 3:06 am

As mentioned in an earlier post I decided to replace the Catalina's 18T engine sprocket with 21T to drop the engine revs in high gear by 14% at any given speed. The bigger sprocket required a new primary chain that is 2 links longer. After assembling the sprocket and spring mechanism I then found the missing clutch rod hiding in the mainshaft of the SCT. Following the procedure detailed elsewhere I assembled the clutch and tweaked the nuts to result in a final ~0.003" runout of the outer plate and with 14 ft.lbs. torque on the operating arm as described elsewhere. So, other than the fork rebuild I'm postponing until later, the Catalina is done.

If nothing bad is revealed when I take it for a test ride this weekend I'll put it aside for now and start work again on the Ariel.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/10/17 11:19 pm

I meant to write earlier that one thing I can't remember having come across in any Gold Star literature is a discussion of the alignment of the primary chain. If you open your DBD parts manual to Plate 2 'Engine' you will see reference no. 83 corresponds to two part numbers, for "washers" (shims) of thickness 0.032" and 0.064". These would be used if necessary to get the correct alignment of the engine and clutch sprockets.

I made two alignment tools from 3/4" x 3/4" bar. One is 11" long and thanks to a combination of welding, drilling, and tapping it holds a dial indicator. The other is 15" long and near one end I've cut an arc of 7" dia. out of half of it. With the chain wrapped around both sprockets, but not necessarily connected with a master link, pressing the latter bar against the protruding rivets on the chain that's on the clutch sprocket lets me see how far out of alignment the engine sprocket is and with a feeler gauge I can measure the amount of misalignment. With the former tool the dial indicator measures the misalignment directly without fiddling with feeler gauges. Either way I can determine how much the engine sprocket has to be moved to line up with the clutch sprocket.

In my case the misalignment was 0.044". Since I don't have (or, if I do, couldn't find) any official BSA shims I cut my own from brass. The shims are trapped between two pieces that rotate together so brass is fine for this application and is easier to cut than steel. Still, the 0.024" piece of brass I started with was difficult enough to cut that instead of cutting a second one from the same brass (to give a misalignment of -0.004") I cut a second one from 0.010" brass. At that point I was sick of cutting shims so, since alignment with the two already would be better than I could have done with a BSA shim, I bolted it back together. The measured misalignment when done was 0.008". Sometimes you have to decide that close enough is good enough and move on to something else.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/11/17 9:46 pm

With the exception of rebuilding the forks that I'm leaving to sometime in the future, all the maintenance, fixes, and upgrades to the Catalina were done so today I rolled it out of the garage and started it.

If anything, it seemed to me the Emgo baffle made the sound worse than the open pipe. It was as if all the soothing low frequencies were gone and only the loud, harsh cracks were left. So back into the garage to add the Emgo shorty muffler to the baffle to see if it helped. It definitely did, making a significant difference in the "tone" of the exhaust as well as the loudness. It by no means meets 2017 noise standards, but it's quiet by aftermarket Harley standards. At the moment the muffler is held in place by a clamp and safety wire so now that I know it solves this problem it needs a permanent mount. I then headed out for a ~5-mile ride. The jetting was off in the midrange (more on that later) so I assumed the restriction of the baffle + muffler required the needle to be dropped to compensate.

The higher overall gearing plus the ASCT with its lower 1st seem excellent for how I will use the bike. Accelerating in 1st isn't an issue, of course, but holding a steady speed at anything over 20 mph was a bit buzzy. Shifting to 2nd with this gearbox drops the rpm significantly but not so much so that it causes the engine to lug. In 2nd it's within its "power band" down to ~17-18 mph, overlapping with 1st. Given the ratios, starting to be buzzy at 20 mph in 1st means the same will happen at speeds above 58 mph in 4th (which I didn't reach today, at least for more than a few seconds) so the ASCT plus the larger engine sprocket gives me gearing good for mountain dirt roads as well as for highways.

On the subject of shifting, the extended gear change lever I fabricated feels great. The fact it requires ~50% further movement than a standard lever to change gears wasn't an issue. Also, it makes the short footpegs much less of an annoyance since I no longer have to move my foot to get my boot under the lever each time I downshift.

The slightly lower clutch spring pressure I used this time (14 ft.lbs. vs. 15 previously, as measured the way described elsewhere) didn't cause the clutch to slip so this is my new standard value.

The speedometer read 14% low when I first installed it 1000+ miles ago but today it was spot on at 40 mph on the local radar speed sign. It's tempting to assume this is just due to an old speedometer having become used to working again, but given that I swapped gearboxes there's also the possibility the speedometer gears are different (i.e. 10T in one but 11T in the other, resulting in a 6% difference). I know the SCT and ASCT are supposed to have the same gears but I can't rule out that one of them was built with, say, an STDT layshaft. Not that this matters...

The bike didn't want to idle when I got back home, at which point I discovered the slide stop screw was MIA. Since air can leak through that opening I'll have to check the jetting again after I put a new one in before changing anything.

If all goes well on the next short test ride tomorrow after ~30 min. to mount the muffler the Catalina will re-enter the fleet.

Posted By: Andy Higham

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/11/17 10:43 pm

Silencers can do strange things to the sound of a bike. There are scientists who can design a silencer that will attenuate the "unpleasant" frequencies whilst leaving the more "pleasant" frequencies. These guys and girls are paid a lot of money by top car companies to make high end sports cars sound "right"
BSA got it wrong with the Goldie "twitter" silencer, it sounds loud and harsh. a similar era Burgess silencer has a much more pleasing mellow sound.
I guess what I am trying to say is that it's easier to [***] up the sound of a bike than silence it
Posted By: Dave - NV

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/11/17 11:19 pm

speaking of mufflers ..
I'm happy with my modified Twitter with the front perforated tube removed and a 'reverse cone' fitted on the front half and with the back section packed with SS HD 'pot scrubbers around the perforated tube. It now has a much less harsh sound but with a heathy growl when pulling hard without that annoying 'crackle'. Natch it doesn't "twitter".I've often wondered what the car drivers must think of us when we do a full throttle pass on the road. aargh.
But of course the sound of a Goldie on the gas with a mega is glorious!

We've not yet resolved the stringent sound requirements with our GS dirt tracker to race on the Perris, CA short track. The Jemco silenced racing mega works so well and the current mufflers available sure choke the engine down. hmmm. Any good ideas for us?

BTW, I''ll have a fairly nice extra Twitter for sale I've accumulated. Lucky me the owner of the '58 Clubman project bike also sold me a new OEM BSA Twitter still in the wrapping he had purchased 30+ years ago but never fitted. And speaking of such things he also sold me new OEM GS headlight assembly in the BSA box! They are 'thin on the ground'! I hope to fit it with a LED conversion to eliminate following that little yellow spot down the road.
Posted By: Dave - NV

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/11/17 11:34 pm

MM .. a much easier way to align the primary sprockets is clamp a long straight edge, I use a piece of flat strap irion, on the side of the engine sprocket extending over the clutch sprocket. Works nice. This is important when a 4 spring clutch and adapter are fitted. Added shims behind the cush drive may be required.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/12/17 12:00 am

Originally Posted by dave - NV
MM .. a much easier way to align the primary sprockets is clamp a long straight edge, I
That's what the longer of the two tools I made does and, like you say, it works great. I made the other one, with the dial indicator, because I couldn't keep myself from "improving" on a tool that didn't need improvement...
Posted By: Andy Higham

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/12/17 12:06 am

I have done something similar with my "goldieised" B31. The silencer is Goldie shape, the tapered section is empty, the parallel section has a perforated tube surrounded by stainless steel wadding. This is a similar configuration to the Burgess silencer and it gives me a pleasing sound
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/12/17 11:56 pm

If it's not one thing, it's another. And another...

I replaced the missing throttle slide stop screw and took it on a ride. I seemed it might be a bit better, but it still started missing when I got to ~1/2 throttle on a rising road. Not quite the classic incorrect needle slot symptom, but close enough to suspect that was the problem.

With a combination of pencil, needle pliers, haemostat, and curved tweezers it's just possible to move the needle slot without removing the carburetor (which also requires removing the air cleaner box). It's also possible to drop the needle into the carburetor when attempting this and have to take the box off anyway. Sigh...

After retrieving the needle I lowered it one slot, to the topmost slot. At that point I noticed the carburetor was loose on the engine. Hmm. I snugged up the nuts but didn't move the needle back to its original position, and took it on a ride. It was hard to decide if there had been a change because it still started missing when I got to ~1/2 throttle on the same place on the rising road. Also, it seemed too rich at idle, i.e. when I closed the throttle it took a few moments for the revs to drop all the way.

When I got home I left it running on the center stand and tried to adjust the pilot mixture screw. I kept turning the screw in, and lowering the throttle stop to keep the revs from rising, until the screw was all the way in and the idle was the fastest. Turning the screw back out from there caused the revs to drop. With the idle fuel (presumably) completely cut off the engine idles best. Hmm.

Back in the garage I removed the jet assembly and measured the needle jet. It was 0.1065"-0.1066" when I assembled the carburetor a few months ago, but now is 0.1069-0.1070", i.e. it is larger by 0.0004"-0.0005". This counts as worn out since it is enough to cause significant richness.(*) Your results may vary, but this shows that my needle jet lasted just ~1200 miles before the constant hammering by the needle enlarged it to out of spec. Although I blame the enlargement on engine vibration, because it has an air filter and all those miles were on asphalt roads, under the microscope with a 0.106" plug gauge in it the bore is round whereas I expected some fore-aft (or side-to-side) ovalness.

OK, tomorrow I'll stick a new needle jet in it (measured for size), but what's the deal with the idle mixture screw? Twelve hundred miles ago it behaved as it should, with one turn out being the sweet spot for the idle mixture. Now it idles best when the position of the mixture screw should be keeping it from idling at all.


(*)It appears from my measurements that Amal aimed for their Monobloc needles to be 2.50 mm dia (0.0984"). Fuel flows through the annular area between the needle and the jet which, until the taper begins, for a 0.1065" bore is pi x (0.10652 - 0.09842) / 4 = 0.001304 in.2. If the bore of a needle jet increases to 0.1070", i.e. by 0.0005", the annular area and gasoline flow increases by 6%. Mikuni spaces the slots in their needles to change the flow by just under 6% in the region where the taper is active, indicating that a change of this size makes an observable difference on the performance (the grooves in Amal's needles change by 9%).
Posted By: L.A.kevin

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/13/17 6:24 pm

MM, how do you measure a jet with that much accuracy? I work in aerospace, and we can't that kind of accuracy without using an air gauge.

Just curious...

Kevin
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/13/17 8:04 pm

Originally Posted by L.A.kevin
how do you measure a jet with that much accuracy?
I have two bore micrometers for that range, although I only used one of them (the Starrett) for these particular needle jet measurements:

Starrett 78XTZ-100, range 0.100"-0.120", 0.0001" micrometer. Uses a split cylinder.
Diatest with probe #14, range 0.091"-0.110", 0.0001" indicator. Uses a split ball.

To check/adjust the Starrett I have four ring gauges covering the appropriate range, with IDs slightly less than that of the needle jet, 0.09995" and 0.10000" and slightly more, 0.10845" and 0.11500". Once set using one of the ring gauges it gives the correct result for the other three to within the 0.0001" resolution of its micrometer.


Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/13/17 11:25 pm

I'm stumped, so would appreciate suggestions.

As background, John Healy and I disagree whether a jet stamped '106' means its ID should be 0.1060" or 0.1065", but we each trust our own instruments and measurements, and it doesn't matter who is correct for what follows, so let's agree that we're both correct.

The rebuild of the Catalina wasn't finished when it came to me. When I had it essentially finished the bike ran badly at mid-throttle, acting as if too rich, so I dropped the needle one notch and that was all it took to make it run "perfectly." I adjusted the pilot screw and found the optimum position where it ran best with the #25 pilot jet, with the engine slowing down either side of that position, was one turn out from fully closed. I then put 250 miles on it myself including a short stretch on the Interstate and 20 miles up a mountain to 8000 ft. with the jetting acting as if it were perfect at all times. It had a 320 main jet.

My friend then rode it for the next 1000 miles so I don't have first-hand experience with how the performance deteriorated over that time. The silencer that was on it when it had the "perfect" jetting broke during that ride and I've now replaced it with a different silencer that could have more, less, or the same restriction as the old one. In a previous post I described what I found this week with the carburetor. In summary, it was loose on the flange, had lost the slide stop screw, started missing badly at ~1/2 throttle, and its needle jet was enlarged by 0.0005" beyond what it was 1200 miles earlier. Tightening the mounting nuts, replacing the slide stop screw, and lowering the needle by one notch made little or no difference. Also, now the position of best idle is with the pilot screw turned fully in. As of the end of yesterday the engine was still missing badly under load (on a rising hill) at ~1/2 throttle.

Today I installed a new needle jet the same ID that the current one had when the engine ran great 1200 miles ago. This definitely made a difference since the engine no longer starts missing at 1/2 throttle. However, now it does at 3/4. Lowering the choke while this is happening makes it run even worse, i.e. it is too rich at 3/4 or higher throttle. Since the needle jet should be contributing relatively little by this point I replaced the 320 main jet with a 300 (6% reduction -- maybe not enough to make a difference?), repeated the test, and got the same result.

Dejected, the bike is back on the lift as I await hearing from one of you who knows the solution. What have I overlooked? What could have changed in ~1000 miles to be causing these symptoms? I want to figure out what is causing this behavior so "replace the carburetor" isn't a helpful response.
Posted By: L.A.kevin

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/14/17 2:19 am

I'll hazard a guess... can you go even smaller on the main jet? When jetting, I have had good results by going way over and at least determining the direction of the fault. Go to a 250 jet.

Is the needle jet leaking? Is the carb body cracked? Did someone do a previous repair with JB weld that came loose?

Good luck, and tell us what you find.

Kevin
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/14/17 3:26 am

Originally Posted by L.A.kevin
can you go even smaller on the main jet?
Is the carb body cracked?
Great minds think alike. Having had a few hours to reflect on this my best guess is the silencer is much more restrictive than the previous one and so requires a significantly smaller main jet, and perhaps the body developed a crack that is letting air leak by the pilot screw.

I won't have a chance to check the main jet until Wednesday, but I'll head out with spanners and a jets from 200 to 300 in steps of 10. I'll have to hope that whoever lives next to that hill doesn't call the police before I sort it out. Assuming I get it sorted before I'm arrested I'll then take the carburetor off and check for cracks. If that turns out to be the cause of the pilot mixture issue I have what's needed to build another Monobloc for the bike.


Posted By: David Cass1

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/14/17 9:13 am

As a quick check, can you temporarily fit the silencer from your other GS, one which you know the main jet size is correct. see if this improves or dis-improves and that would give you a direction for jet change, carb body choke size issue... etc

David C
Posted By: gavin eisler

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/14/17 12:17 pm

re the carb idle mixture change. an air leak seems to be the culprit, On a Monobloc the jet block/ gasket could be at fault, cracked body? . Or a blockage in the fuel supply to the pilot jet. The only owner lead change has been the silencer, maybe a temp refit of the old silencer if its still functioning would solve this part.
The most obvious place for an air leak would be the mounting flange. Thing arent always that straightforward .
Another possibility, float level, although I dont think that would change in a 1000 miles.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/14/17 6:11 pm

Originally Posted by David Cass1
can you temporarily fit the silencer from your other GS,
Originally Posted by gavin eisler
maybe a temp refit of the old silencer if its still functioning would solve this part.
By now the old, broken silencer is a few feet deep in some landfill, and swapping silencers wouldn't provide a straightforward answer since the Catalina has a Monobloc while the BB and Special Competition have Concentrics.

Originally Posted by gavin eisler
re the carb idle mixture change... the jet block/ gasket could be at fault, cracked body? . Or a blockage in the fuel supply to the pilot jet. ...The most obvious place for an air leak would be the mounting flange.
The air supply for the pilot mixture comes through a passage from the front of the carburetor, over the pilot jet, and up through a tiny hole on the engine side of the slide. An air leak at the mounting flange wouldn't explain the fact the idle increases continuously as the screw is turned in.

Originally Posted by gavin eisler
Another possibility, float level, although I dont think that would change in a 1000 miles.
Ah, the float level. It only will take two min. at most to check this and I don't know how long it would have taken me to think of it had you not mentioned it. Thanks. I'm pretty sure I put a brass float in it so there definitely is the possibility that it might have slowly filled with fuel and raised the level. I have a very full day today but will try to get into the garage this evening long enough to check the level. Again, thanks.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/15/17 10:16 pm

Originally Posted by gavin eisler
Another possibility, float level, although I dont think that would change in a 1000 miles.
Originally Posted by L.A.kevin
can you go even smaller on the main jet? ... Go to a 250 jet.
Good luck, and tell us what you find.
Gavin gets my gratitude for mentioning "float level," and Kevin gets the award for being (nearly) prescient with the 250.

I measured the float level on the bike and it was fully 1/2" below where it should be. Thanks to the oil tank it's not as if you can take the float bowl cover off while the carburetor is on the bike so I removed it, put it on my test stand, and checked the float level again. It was still 1/2" too low. I tapped and jiggled the carburetor but the level didn't rise.

When I removed the cover I found nothing amiss. The float was completely free to pivot and it has a viton-tipped needle in it. I removed the float and shook it but there was no fuel inside (which would have had the opposite effect on the level, anyway). The platform on the float that pushes against the needle looked fine but, rather than try to figure out what was wrong with that jinxed float, I put in a different one (also brass), closed it up, and checked the level again. This time it was ~1/2 mm too low, which counts as within spec.

Yes, I know, I know, you should only change one thing at a time, but in addition to changing floats I moved the needle back up one notch, to where it had been with the previous silencer, installed a 280 main jet, and bolted it back together. As a reminder, it had a 320 main jet with the previous silencer.

After reinstalling the carburetor (although, without Loctite... just in case) and air cleaner, I put into a baggie the two spanners I would need along with a plastic container, vinyl gloves, and 260 and 240 jets.

It was rich starting at ~3/4 throttle with the 280, i.e. began missing and wouldn't let the engine pick up speed climbing a long hill so, after a second run to convince myself it really was the main jet, not the needle, I pulled over at the top of a hill on a side street in case I needed help re-starting the bike. Before shutting off the engine I checked the pilot mixture screw and it was now working as it should. The best position for it was 5/8 of a turn out with the #25 pilot jet so I could switch to a #20 if I felt like it. Or, leave well enough alone.

I drained the fuel into the container and poured it back into the tank and then swapped in the 260 main jet. It started on the first kick, but was still too rich.

I swapped in the 240 and it again started on the first kick, but this time the jetting was almost perfect. If I had a 220 I wouldn't have used it because the 9% change would have been too much. It's back in the garage where I'll install a 230 when I Locktite the fasteners, but then I'm done with it for now.

The major lesson from this is that, contrary to what I would have thought, even if the fuel level is way too low a bike can start and run reasonably well. A second lesson is that two silencers can require significantly different jetting. That said, circling my driveway with my helmet off, the present silencer really does a pretty good job making the Catalina socially responsible. My wife commented a couple of says ago that the bike "doesn't sound right." When I said it has a different muffler on it she said "Oh, that's what's different." I should have thought then to ask her what jetting it needed...

Posted By: gavin eisler

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/16/17 7:10 pm

Thinking aloud here.
If the float level changed over the first 1,000 miles , maybe the tickler is over long and bending the float mech when depressed.
?
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/16/17 7:51 pm

Originally Posted by gavin eisler
If the float level changed over the first 1,000 miles , maybe the tickler is over long and bending the float mech when depressed.
That's not the explanation. The Catalina starts best without the tickler so it only would have been used when my friend forgot this, the tickler doesn't even reach the float when the level is 1/2" below where it should be, and if the platform where the tickler hits it became bent down and also bent down the portion where the needle touches it, the level would have become higher, not lower.

There has to be a physical explanation for the fuel level (it's either that, or voodoo...), and I do like understanding why something happened even if the problem goes away, so after I wrote my previous post I re-examined the "jinxed" float. It has solder on the portion that makes contact with the needle, put there by some previous person to adjust the level. There's a depression in the solder where it contacts the needle. If instead of making contact there the float had enough, ahem, end float on the shaft for the needle to contact a higher part of the solder that would cause the fuel level to be lower. Why this might have changed in the ~1000 miles since I originally checked the level is an unknown. The brass spacer was on the end of the shaft as it should be.

A second possible explanation would be if somehow the float caught on the shaft before reaching its proper height. That seems a lot less likely since the shaft is smooth and there wasn't any hint of the float "catching" or dragging when I moved it by hand.

This would have been a nightmare to diagnose and fix had I not had the tools and spares to deal with it. As it was, my post on the 13th shows how frustrating it was. Ultimately, the things that were wrong, and what I needed to find/fix those issues, were:

-- loose mounting nuts; tightened
-- missing slide stop screw; replaced with one I had in my stock of Amal bits
-- worn needle jet; measured with calibrated 0.0001" bore gauge and replaced with one I had in stock whose ID I confirmed with the bore gauge
-- low fuel level in float bowl; measured with "tool" having clear Tygon tubing; replaced with another float from my stock
-- insensitivity to pilot mixture screw; cured by curing the fuel level problem
-- main jet significantly too large for the replacement silencer; diagnosed using selection of main jets from my stock

Had I had to order replacement items one-by-one as I discovered problems with them, assuming in each case that the latest problem discovered was the cause, this easily could have taken several months rather than a couple of frustrating days.


Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 11/19/17 3:46 am

It took two runs today but the jetting is now sorted out. I ended up with a 220 main jet. The Catalina starts on the first kick, idles, and the jetting is great across the entire range. What more could anyone want?

With the Catalina now sorted out I drained the fuel and put the bike where the BB used to be, and put the BB on the "maintenance lift" (as opposed to the "restoration lift") where the Catalina used to be. I don't plan to do anything in particular to the BB, but it also just covered 1200 miles so it wouldn't hurt to look it over. However, I'll only do that whenever I'm delayed with the Ariel for some reason.

In case anyone finds the information useful, the carburetor is a 1-5/32" Monobloc with the following settings:

pilot 25
pilot screw 5/8 turn out
slide cutaway 4
needle jet 106 (measures 0.1065"–0.1066")
needle on 2nd notch
main jet 220

p.s. for what it's worth, at some point in the past I acquired a Webco jet holder that has ~20 tapped holes for main jets. On my recent 1200-mile trip I had it along, stocked with 3 ea. larger and smaller jets for the BB and the Catalina so I could rejet, if necessary, in the evening should a change in altitude require it. I've now swapped for the appropriate six Catalina jets that are larger and smaller than the 220. I suspect the Catalina is now at the rich end of the range which means if I find myself on a trip at higher altitude I might have to drop down to a smaller jet and the Webco holder means I'll be prepared for that. Unless I forget it at home...
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 05/29/18 6:56 pm

On November 18 I wrote:
Originally Posted by Magnetoman
It took two runs today but the jetting is now sorted out. I ended up with a 220 main jet. The Catalina starts on the first kick, idles, and the jetting is great across the entire range. What more could anyone want?
Thanks to my rebuild of the Ariel the Catalina has collected dust ever since then. However, a European friend arrived yesterday and I planned a ride to the top of the nearby mountains for tomorrow. To make sure all was ready I looked over the two bikes he suggested, one of which was the Catalina.

The twist grip was very tight until the slide had lifted by ~1/4 and repeated operation of the throttle didn't improve the situation so I took the slide out of the carburetor. The slide was completely coated with a sticky substance that came off easily with acetone leaving the paper towel black. That improved things significantly but the slide still hangs up at the lowest position so the carburetor will have to come apart so I can get remove the jet block to clean all the surfaces that make contact with the slide.

Given that the carburetor was fine before, and that I had drained the fuel immediately after the jetting runs, I can't imagine what the substance is that has coated the slide, or where it could have come from.
Posted By: Irish Swede

Re: 1962 Catalina - 05/29/18 9:20 pm

If you are running a velocity stack, probably it's bug guts from victims that the 500cc down-stroke sucked in.

(Well that's MY theory anyway, Charlie.)
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 05/30/18 12:12 am

Originally Posted by Irish Swede
probably it's bug guts from victims that the 500cc down-stroke sucked in.
Of all the explanations posted so far, yours is the best. However, the Catalina has a foam filter so it would have to have been a large swarm of gnano-gnats to make it through the filter and deposit that much residue.

It's really bizarre. The slide is well above the fuel level, and I had drained the fuel anyway, so it being the result of some mystery fuel additive doesn't make sense. Even had I spayed the top of the carburetor with chain lube (which I didn't), the ring and cap seal it well enough that very little could have seeped inside. There was no sign of the problem when I rode the bike in November, but in May the entire slide was coated with sticky residue. Very, very strange.
Posted By: Shane in Oz

Re: 1962 Catalina - 05/30/18 1:32 am

Filter oil?
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 05/30/18 2:05 am

Originally Posted by Shane in Oz
Filter oil?
Well, while a reasonable hypothesis to propose, it also has to explain why the slide, located many inches from the foam in the standard Catalina air filter assembly, got coated with the sticky stuff, while the flat cover on the filter assembly, located maybe 1 cm from the foam, has no coating on it at all. Nor does the inside of the filter box. We drove my friend to a museum 90 min. from town today and every time there was a lull in the conversation I puzzled over this mystery. In any case, since I don't want to abandon him to completely rebuild the carburetor, tomorrow he'll be on the BB Gold Star and I'll be on the Matchless G80.
Posted By: robcurrie

Re: 1962 Catalina - 05/30/18 12:46 pm

Could it be wrong spec fuel hose that's been dissolving over time?

Rob C
Posted By: David Cass1

Re: 1962 Catalina - 05/30/18 5:21 pm

Is it aluminium corrosion created by the environment between the foam air filter, the velocity stack , condensation from the last run and your climate.

Doesn't explain why it's this machine only and not any other Amal fitted bike
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 05/31/18 5:10 am

Originally Posted by robcurrie
Could it be wrong spec fuel hose that's been dissolving over time?
Originally Posted by David Cass1
Is it aluminium corrosion created by the environment between the foam air filter, the velocity stack , condensation from the last run and your climate.
I use the same ethanol-rated hose (from the same batch) on all my bikes so I doubt if that's the explanation. But, if it is, it will show up once I open the float bowl. As for condensation, I realize everyone in Ireland thinks it either has just rained, is raining now, or will start raining momentarily, but I live in the desert. It's definitely not corrosion, but I can't rule out some odd polymerization reaction mediated by the metal of the slide.

I took the Matchless today because of the problem with the Catalina's slide. Twenty miles up the mountain the Law of Unintended Consequences reared its head as the Matchless's rear wheel abruptly locked up without any warning. It took me a second to try pulling in the clutch and that "fixed" it so the engine must have seized even though the temperature at that point was in the low 70s.

Unfortunately, it started skidding to the left before I pulled in the clutch so my friend dodged to the right (a blind curve was coming up so going left could have been problematic). He made it along the verge until the speed was down to maybe 10 mph or so but then hit a rock and lost it. My friend has a few dings and bruises but, thanks to his full-face helmet, the deep scratches in it aren't even deeper scratches in his soft flesh. And, there were large rocks everywhere so those scratches easily could have been accompanied by a cracked skull.

If it had seized 2 sec. earlier when I was going through a curve there's no doubt I would have slid off the road into a rock embankment. If it had seized 1 sec. later there was a turnout with plenty of room for my friend to pass on the right. Most of the ride he had left lots of room between us, but at that time he had closed up just a bit too much given his reaction time on a strange bike that braked and shifted on the wrong side for him wasn't quite fast enough to simply stop without rear ending me.

Luckily, the BB was still ridable because I had to go two miles up the road to find a cell phone signal to call my long-suffering wife to ask her to come to get us. The BB took some cosmetic hits, but I'm afraid the Matchless is in worse condition even though it looks the same as always. The Matchless has no compression but both bikes are still on the truck so I haven't peeked through the spark plug hole. Unfortunately, I'm sure the view I'll see will be of the crankshaft. Why the engine seized is another mystery at this point since that bike has been nothing but a reliable workhorse for thousands of miles.

The EMT team from the fire department station at the top of the mountain happened to be returning from another call they so pulled in less than 2 min. after the accident. The Sheriff showed up a few minutes later, and one of them had placed a call to the county EMT so an ambulance showed up 10 min. after that. At one point shortly after the accident he had three emergency vehicles and ~10 trained responders looking after him.



Attached picture BB_helmet.jpg
Posted By: L.A.kevin

Re: 1962 Catalina - 05/31/18 5:24 am

Aw MM, that sucks! I hope your friend heals up ok.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 05/31/18 7:29 pm

Originally Posted by L.A.kevin
I hope your friend heals up ok.
He had some swelling in one arm yesterday that seems to be totally gone today. Although he denies any aches or pains there must be some residual effects. In any case, I dropped him off at the airport an hour or so ago for his return to Italy.

Meanwhile, the highly advanced, but little known Matchless "auto-repair" function restored compression overnight. The bikes are still on the pickup but a view with the borescope showed what looks to be an undamaged piston crown. However, there are a few flecks of metal on the spark plug so I wonder if we got a batch of bad gasoline when we filled up just prior to starting up the mountain. The flecks mean there must have been pre-ignition although I didn't hear it pinging. Before we left the house I split between the two bikes ~1.5 gal. of fuel that I bought for the Ariel a few days ago but the Gold Star's tank is much smaller than the huge one on the Matchless so after the fuel stop the G80 was running on mostly the new fuel from the pump whereas the GS was closer to 50/50 so the octane would have been higher.

p.s. If you have 40 min. you don't know what to do with, click on the button above the "About This Episode" header near the top of the following to start the audio:

https://www.startalkradio.net/show/motorcycle-racing-physics-on-2-wheels/
Posted By: gunner

Re: 1962 Catalina - 05/31/18 10:56 pm

Sorry to hear about your riding woes but at least everyone seems to be OK, just one of those things I guess.

Regarding the gummed up carb slide, maybe one possibility is that the the fuel tank has been sealed at some point in the past with a non ethanol resistant sealant which is now slowly breaking down. Alternately a similar problem may happen if the tank is fibreglass.

I note that you are using a foam air filter and would like to offer some advise which you are likely already aware of but for safety's sake I will repeat. Foam air filters can be the source of fires especially if you experience kickback or spitback through the carb. The problem is made worse if oil or fuel has leaked onto the filter and the filter is old. A while back my B44 caught fire whilst using a foam air filter when I experienced kickback. I was lucky as I was able to extinguish the fire after a few seconds using my gloved hands, any longer and the whole bike could have gone up in flames.

I believe some foam air filters are resistant to fire and better still are the K&N style filters which use cotton as a filter medium together with a stainless steel mesh which in combination make the risk virtually zero.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/01/18 12:40 am

Originally Posted by gunner
Sorry to hear about your riding woes but at least everyone seems to be OK, just one of those things I guess.
If an accident had to happen, it was the best I could have hoped for. Damage to my friend was enough to give us something to remember the ride by, but not enough to last beyond a couple of days. Of course, of far less importance than damage to people is damage to the bikes. The BB appears to have suffered only cosmetic damage and the Matchless looks as good as ever (although, its beauty may turn out to be only skin deep...).

The bikes are off the truck and in the garage now. Over the weekend I'll drain the fuel from both (and the oil from the Matchless before its leaky oil pump does it for me) and examine the BB more closely. The only thing I can see that I'll have to order are new footpeg rubbers. Everything else I either have (replacement Chronometric glass), or it looks like I can fix with a little labor plus paint.

I should have put in a plug in for properly rebuilt magnetos in my post yesterday. For the Matchless I had to take the battery off the charger, add water because I hadn't noticed it was getting low, open the cover, wire it into place, and close the cover. The bike acted like it was somewhat inclined to start on the first kick, but it wanted me to kick harder than I did. After three wimpy kicks we pushed the bike and it started almost instantly. In contrast, after sitting unused for six months the Gold Star simply started on the first kick. I hate batteries.

Originally Posted by gunner
Regarding the gummed up carb slide, maybe one possibility is that the the fuel tank has been sealed at some point in the past with a non ethanol resistant sealant which is now slowly breaking down.
No, the inside of the tank is bare steel.

Originally Posted by gunner
Foam air filters can be the source of fires
Thanks for mentioning this. Unfortunately, I was unable to find any filters that would fit in the Catalina's air box which is why I custom cut my own from foam.
Posted By: sanarthur

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/02/18 5:35 am

Hi MM I´m sorry to hear about your mishap and I hope your friend arrived ok after such a long flight back.

Saludos
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/02/18 11:39 pm

Originally Posted by sanarthur
I hope your friend arrived ok after such a long flight back.
I got an email from him earlier today saying he arrived back in Napoli on time and with "almost no traces of the accident."

Today I removed the battery and drained the fuel and oil from the Matchless, so it's now officially in mothballs for the foreseeable future. I then drained the fuel from the BB and turned my attention to the Catalina's sticky slide. Repeat after me, correlation does not necessarily imply causality.

I removed the jet block and thoroughly cleaned it, the wall of the main body, and inside and outside of the slide. Nothing felt sticky before I did this although the paper towels removed quite a bit black residue from various surfaces. However, after I bolted the jet block back into place (it's held down by the jet holder) the slide was very stiff, although slightly loosening the jet block freed it up. I disassembled, reassembled, and repeated this a few times getting somewhat different results each time varying from being a little tighter to being much tighter after I tightened the jet block.

Since this was consistent with the base of the jet block being slightly tilted with respect to its seating surface in the carburetor body I put the jet block in the lathe and ended up skimming about 0.003" from the seating surface before it was perpendicular to its walls. The photograph shows it after the first ~0.001" or so had been removed. After I did this and reassembled the carburetor the slide was smooth as silk. The black residue had been a red herring.

In retrospect this all makes sense. At least once in the past after assembling the carburetor there was a noticeable 'catch' in the movement of the slide at low throttle settings that was quite annoying. But, it went away as I fiddled with the jetting. Each time I changed the main jet I could easily change the torque on the jet holder that clamps the jet block in place. Since there was a slight tilt to its bottom surface different torques resulted in slightly different amounts of tilt of the top of the jet block, changing the clearance between it and the carburetor body. After my final jetting run last fall during which the carburetor behaved well I drained the fuel from the carburetor. In retrospect it is now clear that I changed the torque on the jet block as well when I re-tightened it. The jet block also had six months to slightly settle, which could have been a factor as well. Mystery solved.



Attached picture JetBlock.jpg
Posted By: Kerry W

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/03/18 7:35 am

Well spotted. I'd like to think I'd find and correct a problem like that!

The bigger question in my mind, is why was there a problem in the first place?
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 06/03/18 4:14 pm

Originally Posted by Kerry W
The bigger question in my mind, is why was there a problem in the first place?
The Catalina was from the same guy who built my lovely BB Gold Star and friend's lovely ZB34/M20 bitza who all evidence indicates was an excellent mechanic (an electrician, not so much...). However, unlike the BB, the Catalina wasn't finished when he died, and the carburetor(s) have caused more than their fair share of grief.

Looking back through my notes, despite finding and correcting various issues (e.g. it came to me with a short 'C' series needle in it rather than the correct 'D' series) I still had trouble getting the bike to run at all. I later determined a major factor was too much back pressure from the silencer I had added to the open pipe, but a few days before discovering that I "Built up a completely new 389 carburetor using none of the components from the current carb. except the needle and 4 cutaway slide. Brass float, viton needle, and proper float bowl height. It transformed the bike." Twelve days, and five entries in my notes, later I wrote "Carb no longer has tight spot." Although the intervening notes don't mention the tight spot it's clear the issue due to the slightly tilted throttle body has been there ever since I built that carburetor from parts.

So, finally, getting to your question. Of course, there's no way to know the history of that jet block. It could have come out of the casting mold that way, been slightly "mis-chucked" in the factory lathe if there was a subsequent machining operation, slowly distorted over time due to certain of Zamak's issues with dimensional stability, or abused in some way by previous owners. I tend to think abuse wasn't the cause since, although 0.003" doesn't seem like much, that's actually a lot of material to have been displaced when there are no signs of abuse.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/04/18 5:41 pm

Where I left off this thread the Catalina was, as far as I know at this point, 100% ready to go, although thanks to working on the Ariel I haven't ridden it since last fall. The BB, on the other hand, has been sitting mostly untouched on the lift since it slid down the road four months ago. Luckily, the damage to the BB was cosmetic and not very severe. So, no longer facing a hard deadline with the Ariel I turned to the BB.

The back corner of the seat was slightly torn. I filled in the tears with black 'Shoe Goo' which didn't return it to as-new condition, but it will do on a bike intended to be ridden. As with the other damage, all of it is on the left side of the bike.

The tank had two chips in the paint, exposing red primer. I filled the chips with Testors metallic silver. Again, not perfect, but it will do. The photograph doesn't do justice to the color match which is pretty good, although not perfect (e.g. the one at the lower right actually is the same silver as the other one, not brown). Also, I haven't sanded them yet to eliminate the three-dimensionality which currently makes them stand out more than they eventually will.

The headlamp bezel was bent and scraped, although the glass survived. I simply swapped the bezel for another I happened to have. Both headlamp mounting ears on the forks were bent but they were easy to bend back into position.

The mount for the speedometer was bent upwards and paint scraped off quite a bit of the outside of the case, but the glass survived. In contrast, the mount for the tachometer wasn't bent and the paint was untouched, but the glass was broken. Since the speedometer had been acting wonky at speeds above ~50 mph I used the opportunity to remove the mechanism and use spray degreaser on the old grease inside, removing most of it. This wasn't the first time the speedometer had been apart as evidenced by red silicone serving as a gasket. I then reoiled the mechanism using Starrett Tool and Instrument Oil and sprayed the case with gloss black, not taking pains to do anything like a perfect job. I degreased and oiled the tachometer as well, replacing its glass with one cannibalized from another one.

The gearbox was 90 cc low (out of 400 cc) so I topped it up, but the primary case was full. I drained the oil tank, attaching several prominent notes to the bike to that effect, and will wait until I next have a chance to ride it before adding fresh oil. Also, I have a Burgess-shaped silencer to replace the current twitter-type but won't make that swap until I'm ready to ride because once I make the switch I'll likely have to play around with the jetting.

In the hopes it solves the issue of a false neutral between 2nd and 3rd I fully tightened the plunger spring, compressing it ~1/4" further than it had been. If that doesn't solve it, and probably even if it does, longer term I plan to rebuild an STD.T gearbox and swap it for the unmarked one currently in the bike.


Attached picture Seat.jpg
Attached picture Tank.jpg
Attached picture Headlamp.jpg
Attached picture Speedometer.jpg
Posted By: Jerry Roy

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/05/18 12:30 am

And this, from the man who has decried bodgery in the past! facepalm
With age, comes wisdom.
Welcome to the "git 'er done" base. laughing

And a bit of material science in the bargain. Who knew, Shoe Goo. thumbsup

JR
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/05/18 2:33 am

Originally Posted by Jerry Roy
And this, from the man who has decried bodgery in the past!
OK, OK, I admit the seat repair isn't pretty. But in defense of the sanctity of the word "bodge," shouldn't it be reserved for repairs that are cheap and easy and worse than a proper repair? Given the variety of small tears and punctures, short of having the seat recovered, I can't think of a way to properly repair it. Further, the Shoe Goo at Ace Hardware was more expensive than their black silicone. I realize I'm drawing a fine distinction, and I'll accept the verdict of the jury, but I plead 'no bodge', your honor.

Attached picture ShoeGoo.jpg
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/06/18 12:45 am

Originally Posted by Jerry Roy
And this, from the man who has decried bodgery in the past!
When I got my BB Gold Star almost four years ago the builder's notebook said he couldn't solve the problem of too much oil coming from the breather and so he had run a hose from it along the inside of the rear mudguard to as far back on the bike as possible. Clearly, this was a bodge. However, I thought I might have a solution to this problem so as a test I bodged together a temporary catch tank from PVC pipe and end caps filled with Cu mesh from a kitchen scrubbing pad. I then temporarily zip tied it in place under the seat.

The tube from the breather enters at the bottom of the catch tank and my hope was the oil vapor would condense back into liquid on the Cu mesh and the liquid would then run back down through the breather tube into the timing cover. I T'd the oil tank vent into a tube at the very top to take anything that made it that far back down to the ground.

The proof of concept worked great, with never a drip under the final outlet tube, but the temporary bodge remained in place. However, shamed by Jerry Roy, today I did what I have been planning to do ever since the "temporary" catch tank proved the concept. I welded a non-bodge version from a 3-1/2" length of thin wall 1-3/8" Al tubing, filled with the same Cu scrubbing pad mesh, and with proper fittings at either end for the inlet and outlet. After I polish it I'll make an appropriate bracket and mount it to the frame, bringing to an end this bodge.


Attached picture CatchTank.jpg
Posted By: Jerry Roy

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/06/18 2:47 am

Huuuummm, that's interesting.
So, are we to take away from this that a high polish changes a bodge to development engineering? confused

And speaking of pot scrubbers, did you ever pack your muffler with said items?





Can you hear me now? cool

JR
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/06/18 4:58 pm

Originally Posted by Jerry Roy
So, are we to take away from this that a high polish changes a bodge to development engineering?
Now, now Jerry Roy, behave yourself.
Posted By: Jerry Roy

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/07/18 1:28 am

Ooops, I should of put a laughing emoji behind that question.
All in good humor, Doc

All levity aside, did you ever come up with something that toned down the muffler?

JR
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/07/18 4:00 am

Originally Posted by Jerry Roy
did you ever come up with something that toned down the muffler?
Basically, I ignored everything but the Ariel for the past year so I didn't even give a thought to the sound. I'll have to ride it again to remind myself what it was I wanted to deal with. Maybe it will sound better to me this year.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 01/14/19 4:28 pm

Look what I found when straightening up the garage in the aftermath of the SCT2 gearbox rebuild documented starting here in the Spitfire thread. Normally these electrical disconnects are only found under rocking horses, but I found it on a shelf of Gold Star parts. This makes me wonder what else I have that I don't know about...

I'm starting to arrange a Gold Star Ride for later this spring with my Cannonball teammate as well as to let a friend who is rebuilding a Catalina, but who has never ridden a Catalina, ride a Catalina (shh, don' t tell him, but my hope is he will hate it so much he'll pay me to take it off his hands). This will be the first long ride with the Catalina after the ~1200-mile ride in Texas a year ago.

Aside from routine maintenance after that Texas ride, including replacing the needle jet that had completely worn out in just 1200 miles, upgrades made as a result of the experience include rebuilding and installing an ASCT gearbox in place of the SCT, increasing the overall gear ratio by changing the engine sprocket from 18T to 21T, lengthening the gearshift lever to make it the same from the footpegs as on other bikes, and installing a new pair of Hagon shocks. This should bring the Catalina to a near-ideal configuration.


Attached picture Headlamp_disconnect.jpg
Posted By: Kerry W

Re: 1962 Catalina - 01/15/19 4:19 am

Going back to the oil 'bodge'...I think the original bodge was made by BSA, by retaining the useless flapper valve in the OHV engines! It might have been fine pre-war, in an M20, but the only real solution is the rotary breather. Turning a flapper valve timing cover into a rotary breather version solved similar issues for me...
KW
Posted By: BSA_WM20

Re: 1962 Catalina - 01/16/19 9:47 am

Originally Posted by Kerry W
Going back to the oil 'bodge'...I think the original bodge was made by BSA, by retaining the useless flapper valve in the OHV engines! It might have been fine pre-war, in an M20, but the only real solution is the rotary breather. Turning a flapper valve timing cover into a rotary breather version solved similar issues for me...
KW

No they are not fine in an M20 either.
Works well from idle to around 3500.
After that it works backwards and ends up blowing oil out the unsealed main , filling the primary.

The flapper is a throw back to the pre-war long stroke, slow reving engines with no oil seals.
The idea of running negative pressure in the crankcase was to promote air entering via the scrolls & slingers holding the oil in.

Rex did a lot of work on breathers you can find most of the work in his blog pages or in the 2 books he published.
Down side they are both e books so you need a kindle or kindle reader to access them.

The same data is burried in his personal blog but that is more contorted than mm's ariel thread (https://bunnbreather.wordpress.com/tag/bunn-breather-kit/)
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 07/18/19 1:39 am

This afternoon gave me an opportunity to photograph two bikes in their current configuration as I switched their positions in the garage in preparation for instrumenting the Catalina for air/fuel measurements in order to make its already-perfect mixture even perfecter. Also, for the engine simulation program I want to determine how well the airbox filter arrangement flows, and I'm also curious how well the present shorty silencer flows.

Different strokes for different folks, but if I were to build the perfect-for-me Catalina it would be exactly like the one in the first composite. Modifications I made as a result of our 1200-mile ride across Texas in the fall of 2017 brought it to perfection. What might not be noticed is I lengthened the gear shift lever from its too-close spacing on a standard Catalina. What can't be seen is after Texas I installed an ASCT gearbox, which is proper for this 1962 Catalina anyway, giving it a lower 1st, but the same 2nd-4th, as an SCT. However, I also installed the larger "Clubman" engine and gearbox sprockets to make it less buzzy in 4th on long stretches of road in the great southwest. So, 1st and 4th give it the best of both off and on-road riding, which is something I want for the desert highways, mountain roads and fire trails of the southwest.

Similarly, if I were to build the perfect-for-me cafe racer it would be just like the one in the second composite. The Competition's h.p. is more than sufficient to greatly exceed every speed limit in the State, the SCT gearbox is my favorite one for all-around riding, the 1036 Concentric gives it a civilized idle as well as excellent performance, and the Eddie Dow TLS front brake, relined and arced to the drum by Vintage Brake, stops the bike almost as well as a disk. Also, the seating position is very much like that of my Ducati Monster which, for me, is a good thing. As NYBSAGUY experienced on the east coast a week or so ago, 40 miles of dirt road riding on a Monster is quite possible, whereas even one mile on a bike with clip-ons would be a nightmare

As an aside, it's interesting how very different it feels to sit on the Catalina than on the Competition. They're 95% the same motorcycle, but that last 5% makes a world of difference. I should add that although the configurations of these two bikes are perfect for me and how I use them, they well could be completely wrong for someone else.

The third composite allows easier comparison. The location of the handlebars is the most apparent difference, but closer inspection shows the foot peg is at at the front of the gearbox on the Catalina, but somewhat below and behind the swinging arm pivot on the Competition. Together, these make for significantly different riding postions.


Attached picture Catalina_1962.jpg
Attached picture Competition_1963.jpg
Attached picture Competition_Catalina.jpg
Posted By: NYBSAGUY

Re: 1962 Catalina - 07/18/19 2:37 am


Great illustrations, MM. I can only hope that one day my Catalina will look half as good as yours. If I can wrestle its head off your flow bench, that is. It will never run as well, of course, but I will simply blame you.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 07/22/19 2:22 am

In the spirit of nothing exceeds like excess, I upgraded my perfectly fine AFR system to the next level. I'm now instrumented to log, for up to 566 hours continuously if so inclined, the AFR, throttle position, rpm, acceleration, and exhaust gas temperature. I have one unused position on the data logger so could add road speed with another sensor, but that would be excessive... or, would it? Hmm...

When I installed the modified Clubman 'AFR pipe' on the Catalina I discovered a perforated baffle inside the Catalina's pipe that I didn't know was there. It hadn't become separated from the present silencer because it's too big to fit inside. I can't imagine how it could have been left behind by the silencer that departed on our 2017 Texas ride so maybe it was put there by the previous owner(?). It's a mystery.

Anyway, when I previously adjusted the jetting to be perfect it was with the extra baffle in place, and since I'm not particularly fond of annoying the neighbors any more than necessary, I fished it out and put it in the 'AFR pipe' before installing the shorty silencer. The slightly larger restriction due to the sharp bends of the Clubman pipe will be partially compensated by the lower restriction of the shorter pipe so, overall, the efficiency of the exhaust system should be pretty close to what it will be when I put the Catalina pipe back on. Hence, the jetting I determine with the setup in the photograph should be the same as with the Catalina pipe.

Unfortunately, my elongated shifter interferes with the Clubman pipe so I'll have to install a standard one for these tests (the shifter is barely held on the end of the spline but is touching the shaft in the photograph).

Since the jetting of the Catalina's Monobloc is already perfect, getting it perfect-er should go faster than starting from scratch with a 2-stroke 1038. But, I'll spend some time getting used to the new instrumentation. The weather looks like it will cooperate for a ride early in the week by dropping to the low 100s (even as low as 99 on Monday), but I'm conflicted between jetting and measuring the air flow of the filter. I don't want to put the air filter box back on just to take it off again.

Attached picture Catalina_AFRsetup.jpg
Posted By: Kerry W

Re: 1962 Catalina - 07/22/19 4:17 am

Put a rear-set footpeg on it for the trial duration?
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 07/22/19 5:15 am

Originally Posted by Kerry W
Put a rear-set footpeg on it for the trial duration?
Thanks for that suggestion, but a standard length lever should be fine. The extended shifter is a lot more pleasant to use, which is welcome on long rides, but the short shifter will be fine for the relatively few runs I expect to have to make with the AFR instrumentation.

Addendum: a short gear lever from a box of spares clears the pipe without problem.


Attached picture Catalina_shortgearlever.jpg
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 07/24/19 10:46 pm

There are several overlapping threads happening right now, with relevant information (for me) scattered between them. So, to increase the odds of me being able to find things later, I'm (re)posting some of it here along with new information.

I checked the air flow of my Catalina's filter box assembly with the borrowed Catalina head still on the flow bench. That is, I measured the total flow from the outside air, through the head with the valve opened to 0.46" (which is the valve diameter x0.25), and into the cylinder. Later, after removing the head and cylinder from the flow bench, I checked the filter assembly by itself.

A program I'm using asks for carburetor flow data at 20.4" H20 so I've converted the values to that pressure.

CFM (flow when attached to the head)
184.1 head with radiused inlet guide
165.9 bare head
150.2 head with 1-5/32" Monobloc without an inlet trumpet
145.8 with filter assembly attached but without any filter material in it
139.6 with oiled UNI BF-5 red coarse foam filter material
135.5 with original BSA filter material (of unknown amount of prior use)

CFM (flow when directly mounted to flow bench)
231.3 with oiled UNI BF-5 red coarse foam filter material
211.0 with original BSA filter material (of unknown amount of prior use)
127.1 bare 1-5/16" Monobloc (without filter)

Note that the bare Monobloc flows less than the head + Monobloc. This isn't a mistake. Basically, with a flow bench you have to be careful only to compare apples to apples, e.g. the flow of a bare Monobloc vs. a bare GP. Once you add anything to one of them you have to add it to the other to make a comparison. For example, which flows more: one carburetor spacer, two spacers, a Monobloc by itself, or a Monobloc along with two spacers?

CFM
144.3 both spacers together
141.2 both spacers plus the Monobloc
139.4 larger spacer alone
134.2 larger spacer plus the Monobloc
127.1 bare Monobloc

The above shows the Monobloc with two restrictive spacers flows 11% more than when by itself. Looked at another way, even though adding the two spacers roughly doubles the total distance the air has to travel vs. that of the carburetor alone, more air flows through the combined system than through just the carburetor alone.

Aside from the engine simulation I'm discussing in a different thread, having 25 dyno curves to study made me aware of something I hadn't appreciated before. As the factory dyno curves in the third image show, despite the smaller inlet tract and carburetor, a Catalina with 8.5:1 piston and gentler inlet cam holds its own against a Clubman and Competition, the latter with 10:1 piston, up to the maximum 6500 rpm of the Catalina's test. Only if the Competition stays above 6000 rpm does it have an advantage.

While the factory measurements could be off somewhat higher or lower, the location of the peaks in the torque curves contains important information. As can be seen, the torque of the Clubman and Competition peak at ~5500-6000 while the Catalina is somewhere below 4000. This means that up to ~6000 rpm the Catalina has an advantage. I suspect if Gold Star owners are honest, most wouldn't claim there are many times their tach needles venture north of the '60'. Since I now have Clubman overall gearing in my Catalina, I anticipate some roll-on acceleration tests to investigate this the next time there are two of us on a ride.

The h.p. required to overcome air resistance increases as velocity3. So, despite the Clubman's relatively anemic engine, somewhere beyond ~80-90 mph its wrist-killing clip-ons will come into their own because the seating position of the Catalina limits how small the rider can scrunch. However, the third figure indicates that on most roads, most of the time, in most parts of the country, a Catalina is the one to have if you want the fastest Gold Star on your block.


Attached picture FlowBench13.jpg
Attached picture FlowBench14.jpg
Attached picture DBD_Competition_Clubman_Catalina.jpg
Attached picture Tachometer.jpg
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 07/28/19 7:07 pm

The photograph shows my Catalina just before making its first instrumented jetting run, which also tested my new, upgraded "instrumentation package." Inside the pipe is an insert that was in the Catalina pipe, and at the end is the Catalina's shorty silencer, so the setup reproduces the Catalina's exhaust configuration. Despite the small size of the silencer it's definitely quieter than the 'twitter' on the Competition.

What appears to be a jumbled mess of wires suspended over the handlebars is actually... well, a jumbled mess of wires. However, before cutting any wires and making a final "universal" mounting setup I needed to test everything to be sure it worked together. Unfortunately, although it works well statically, one component gives up when it shakes as much as it does at the end of the present mounting stalk. I'll address that with a Mark II mounting bracket. However, although the data logging part of the instrumentation failed, the AFR gauge didn't, so I was able to determine that the jetting appears to be OK in the lower range but the main jet needs to be smaller.

An interesting "discovery" I made today was that the Bosch knock sensor and aftermarket control unit I installed actually works. Adjusted as per instructions the LED flashed only infrequently with what I assume were false positives, but when I headed up a hill going way too slow in 4th I got the engine to rattle momentarily even with the 100 octane I had in the tank, and at the same time the LED flashed vigorously. The LED is quite bright even in the fullness of the almost-noon July desert sun.

The DocZ was especially useful since I discovered the kickstart lever doesn't clear the silencer. However, the fact that over the past several months I had fully acclimated to the Triumph shift pattern of the Competition caused me trouble more than once. The Catalina is back up on the lift for me to devise a more stable, but easily interchangeable, universal mounting platform.

p.s. the subject of holding the two BA nuts on the air filter box came up in another thread. For what it's worth, I use the lowest strength Loctite for this (purple, 222). All other things being equal, it's about 1/4 the strength of the blue.

Attached picture Catalina_AFRsetup02.jpg
Posted By: Irish Swede

Re: 1962 Catalina - 07/28/19 11:40 pm

WHAT are those UGLY things on the front and rear of this otherwise GORGEOUS competition bike?

OH NO! A headlight and a tail light!

And a swept-back "clubman" exhaust, too?

My 1960 "Cat" apparently had that type of exhaust on it at one time. It wore a groove across the "BSA" logo on the timing cover.
I'm still trying to find a better one.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 07/29/19 12:12 am

Originally Posted by Irish Swede
OH NO! A headlight and a tail light!
And a swept-back "clubman" exhaust, too?
Life is compromise. I can have a Catalina that looks exactly like a catalog Catalina, or I can make it street legal so I can ride it whenever I want. To do that requires a headlight and taillight. The exhaust in the picture, thought, is a modified one that's only there for the jetting. If you look closely you'll see the exhaust sensor exiting the top of the pipe just in front of the gearbox. Once I have the jetting set, the standard Catalina pipe will go back on (albeit, with the shorty silencer at the end).
Posted By: Irish Swede

Re: 1962 Catalina - 07/29/19 12:23 pm

I hope you know I was just teasing you.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 07/29/19 8:23 pm

Originally Posted by Irish Swede
I hope you know I was just teasing you.
Well, you are an AMCA judge so have been indoctrinated to throw modified bikes like my Catalina off the field if entered for judging.

I don't necessarily like loud bikes on the street but it's difficult to know where to draw the line between quiet and h.p. Further, it's difficult to distinguish between the two since a loud bike feels like it's more powerful even if it might not be. Anyway, with feelings of the Competition fresh in my mind, yesterday the Catalina felt like it was somewhat sluggish. That might have been a real effect due to the too-rich main jet or the extra restriction in the exhaust pipe, or it might have been a psychological effect because it was quieter than the Competition, but today I removed the extra baffle that was inside the Catalina's pipe, leaving only the shorty silencer to control the decibels. If a predicted monsoon storm doesn't develop until later in the day tomorrow I'll find out how much difference the additional noise makes in the real or perceived h.p.

p.s. I've been feeling smug for the past ~3 years since I took advantage of the fall of the pound after the Brexit vote to order a Pearson crank. I paid for it in early November 2016 when the pound was on the ropes, saving me ~15% over what it would have cost just six months earlier. However, now I'm depressed because I failed to anticipate the country's ability to make Gold Star crankshafts even less expensive. The pound is now headed for a predicted ~5% greater savings by this coming November.

Attached picture Baffle.jpg
Attached picture PoundDollar.jpg
Posted By: NYBSAGUY

Re: 1962 Catalina - 07/30/19 1:59 am

I'm crying for your exchange rate woes, MMan. According to your graph, I paid top dollar for my Pearson crank. And, like yours, it still sits on my bench, awaiting installation..

Question is; Is my crank appreciating in value enough to offset the fluctuations in the exchange rate? For another thread.
Posted By: Irish Swede

Re: 1962 Catalina - 07/30/19 11:54 am

Magnetoman, remember when you lived in Illinois and the cops were always on the hunt for bikes with loud pipes?

Now, almost all the Harleys run around here with straight pipes, loud as hell, and the cops do NOTHING!
The funny part is they spend big dollars for the so-called "Screaming Eagle" set-ups, but a guy with a stock Gold Wing can outrun them.

I think the pipes go with the denim vests, ass-less chaps, finger-less "nose-picker" gloves and no helmets which, together, are intended to make the statement: "LOOK AT ME!"

Bozo the Clown wanted everyone to look at HIM, too.
Posted By: Hugh Jorgen

Re: 1962 Catalina - 07/30/19 4:01 pm

Originally Posted by Irish Swede
...ass-less chaps..


Aren't chaps by definition ass-less?
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 07/30/19 4:24 pm

Originally Posted by Irish Swede
Magnetoman, remember when you lived in Illinois and the cops were always on the hunt for bikes with loud pipes?
Now, almost all the Harleys run around here with straight pipes, loud as hell, and the cops do NOTHING!
Back then, the motorcyclists being stopped were young and powerless. Now, 40+ years later, the $20k-$30k Harleys are ridden by old white guys who pay taxes, vote, and live next door to city council members.

The son of a late friend is Assoc. Police Chief in town. At a party he told me that one night a few years ago, as a joke on the night watch commander, some of the guys on patrol radioed in that they were on their way to break up a loud party in a rich neighborhood and show those people they couldn't get away with such behavior. As expected, the night watch commander freaked out because he knew how much trouble the people in that neighborhood would cause for him starting the next morning. For the same reason, loud pipes became OK once the odds were no longer small that a motorcyclist being stopped would be a dentist, accountant, lawyer, etc.
Posted By: kevin roberts

Re: 1962 Catalina - 07/30/19 4:35 pm

i don't want to start picking on harley people, because they're motorcyclists first, after all . . . but a buddy of mine at work just bought a dresser that weighs nine hundred and eighty-one pounds. it has a dashboard like a cadillac, and speakers on either side of the pillion that vibrate his wife's ass on either side when he turns up the volume.

it was delivered to his house, and they put the front wheel downhill against his garage door and went away. he tried to pull it backwards to turn it around, and it tipped over. he is no small person, but the bike had to sit there in his driveway on its side until his wife came home and they got a friend to help. it took three people to put it back on the wheels.

to me, that's some sort of very different flavor of motorcycling. i love the harley motor, and have a 1203cc sportster in a tube-framed buell.

but the harley davidson culture is incomprehensible to me.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 07/30/19 6:20 pm

Originally Posted by kevin roberts
i don't want to start picking on harley people,
Has anyone else noticed that more than 10% of Harley riders now wave or nod in acknowledgment, up from 0.00% a few years ago?
Posted By: BSA_WM20

Re: 1962 Catalina - 07/31/19 8:19 am

Loud pipes will vanish the first time some one fires a bike up & deafens the child of a lawer.
Surprised it has not happened in the country where the widdow of the idiot who bought a new pair of running shoes can sue to shop who sold them to him cause they did not make him run aany faster and he got flatteded crossing the freeway.
Over here the EPA polices loud exhausts and they are quite happy to issue compliance notices to HD riders, seen it happen dozens of times when I was on the road all day.
The thing that really urks me though is just how many very loud pipe riders pull ear plugs out of their ears when they take the skid lids off.

But I can not slag too many HD riders cause on most BSA rides the largest contingent are on HD's, which is one reason I am rarely there.
Posted By: BSA_WM20

Re: 1962 Catalina - 07/31/19 8:54 am

OTOH,
HD is the only bike brand that markets to the non-motorcyclist down here and they spend big.
Every week there is a new HD shop opening selling all sorts of over priced do-dads and some even sell motorcycles.
HD toped the road registered bike sales for the last 3 years and looks like doing it again this year.
As committed BSA riders we all know what happens when a motorcycle company stops marketing to new riders.
HD sell a street rod and a road warrior aimed purely at the non motorcycling youth with all the regalia that goes with the "mystique of the marque" .
To boot they offer free dealer service so the kids come in a couple of times a year and thus sit in the showroom so they can buy their HD undies , nose pickers, cup, mugs, knives, T-shirts , sloppy joes, note pads , I-phone covers, jackets , wallets etc etc etc etc.
Thus when they get off their provisional liscences they are already indoctrinated , or rather hooked like a junkie on meths so it will be back to the HD dealer to buy a big bike on HD finance .
Posted By: Motolab

Re: 1962 Catalina - 07/31/19 4:57 pm

Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
OTOH,
HD is the only bike brand that markets to the non-motorcyclist down here and they spend big./
Thus when they get off their provisional liscences they are already indoctrinated , or rather hooked like a junkie on meths so it will be back to the HD dealer to buy a big bike on HD finance .


Luckily we have not such disbalance in Europe ;-) and there is a big rather young audience interested in ‘80,s classics over here.. converting them to 3th gen. Caferacers.... let’s hope they get interested in the future in really and proper classics like our old Brit bikes..

But we are getting really off-topic
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 07/31/19 4:59 pm

Summer monsoon rain is keeping me from making jetting runs and reporting on the results, so meanwhile I've attached a photo from the 1962 catalog to get this thread back on topic.

Attached picture Catalina_1962catalog.jpg
Posted By: NYBSAGUY

Re: 1962 Catalina - 07/31/19 6:11 pm


That image from the BSA catalogue is as lovely as your real-life Catalina. Except, perhaps, for the exhaust.

And with either 'silencer', it will be as loud as any Harley.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 07/31/19 6:30 pm

Originally Posted by NYBSAGUY
with either 'silencer', it will be as loud as any Harley.
The same component was used on the 'Competition' model. I have one on the shelf and it doesn't pretend to be anything other than a sound-amplifying megaphone. If for no other reason than the sake of my neighbors I haven't even been tempted to install it on either the Competition or the Catalina.

p.s. Through 1960 Catalinas had a long, straight pipe, but starting in 1961 they came with a shorter pipe and megaphone. The West Coast versions came with a magdyno and regulator to make it easy to turn into a street scrambler, presumably with most people keeping the same exhaust system.

Attached picture Competition_megaphone.jpg
Attached picture Catalina_1960catalog.jpg
Attached picture Catalina_1961catalog.jpg
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 08/02/19 10:09 pm

I took the rejetted Catalina out for a run today before it got too hot (it was only 97 oF at the time). There's nothing like a properly-geared, correctly jetted Gold Star that's firing on all cylinders. Removing the internal silencer did reduce the silencing, but I think (hope) it's not too loud. I don't think it's my imagination that removing it improved the throttle response.

Although a different silencer likely would require a different main jet, for the record my carburetion is:

1-5/32" Amal Monobloc
Oiled UNI BF-5 red coarse foam filter material
Pilot jet: #25, 5/8 turn out from closed
Needle jet: .106 (measured 0.1065"-0.1066")
Needle: 2nd notch from top
Cutaway: 4
Main jet: 200

The #4 cutaway may be a tiny bit too much, but any additional fine tuning probably will wait until temperatures drop in the fall, coupled with increased air density.

The 100 octane fuel in the can was just about used up so I filled it with 91 octane from the station, meaning the fuel I used today was less than 92. I thought the knock sensor wasn't working because I didn't see it flash on the 2 miles out of the neighborhood. But, when I did an acceleration run I thought I might be hearing pinging, and when I looked down the knock light was flashing. Retarding the spark at that point turned off the light (and reduced the acceleration). So, even 8:1 has issues with the highest octane available at the pump. At least, there are issues when doing an uphill acceleration run starting at the low end of 4th gear speeds. By the way, if I hadn't had the knock sensor to consult, the faint sound of the pinging over the noise from the engine and wind might not have entered my consciousness

Someone who has been riding motorcycles longer than I have might disagree, but the higher overall "Clubman" gearing I now have in it coupled with the very low 1st of the ASCT gearbox makes a fantastic combination.

I thought the low bars and rearsets of my Competition made it my favorite bike. But now I think the high bars and forward footrests of the Catalina might make it my favorite bike. My BB was my favorite, but I'll have to take it out to see if it still holds that position against its more uncivilized siblings.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 08/12/19 7:19 pm

The first photograph shows work in progress.

[Linked Image]

It's actually nearly done, but I'm waiting for another LED to arrive before drilling the final holes. Shortly after the LED arrives this will become the upgraded Mark II "universal" instrumentation package that I've designed to clamp to just about any set of handlebars. What the photograph doesn't show is brazed underneath is an array of seven nuts to allow the clamp, shown in the second photograph, to connect to the platform as close as possible to the center of gravity irrespective of the location and orientation of the clamp on the handlebars (e.g. clip-ons are nearly horizontal, the unobstructed segments of ape hangers are nearly vertical, and typical handlebars are somewhere between these extremes).

[Linked Image]

The Manfrotto "Super Clamp," repurposed from its camera holding tasks, is perfect for this. It has a rated capacity of 33 lbs. but only will be holding less than 3 lbs. including the Manfrotto universal joint. Together they can position the platform in the best location on just about any bike, as well as hold it so it doesn't vibrate any more than the handlebars themselves do.

Mounted on the platform will be an Innovate MTX-L air/fuel gauge along with a data logger that will record data from that meter as well as from a "universal" throttle position sensor (that also clamps to handlebars), tachometer, accelerometer, exhaust gas temperature (EGT) sensor, and knock sensor. As mentioned previously, engines "feel" like they're running well with Air/Fuel Ratios anywhere between ~10:1 and ~15:1 so accurately adjusting the several circuits and jets in a carburetor for either max. h.p. or max. fuel economy requires just such instrumentation.

The compulsion to upgrade my Mark I instrumentation came over me a few weeks ago so I left the modified pipe on the Catalina in the meantime for the first test of it. Also part of the Mark II upgrade is a quick connect for the power at the platform and a 5A fuse at the battery, all the better to make the installation faster and reduce the chance of the battery exploding.

Attached picture Instrumentation_platform.jpg
Attached picture ManfrottoClamp.jpg
Posted By: gunner

Re: 1962 Catalina - 08/12/19 9:11 pm

Very interesting MM, it would be great if you could make a sticky post on all the instrumentation you have added, interpretation of the readings and recommendations on how this could be achieved on other bikes.

I'm sure there are plenty of owners out there including me who would love to try something similar on their bikes and get them running as best as possible.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 08/12/19 11:30 pm

Originally Posted by gunner
if you could make a sticky post on all the instrumentation you have added, interpretation of the readings and recommendations on how this could be achieved on other bikes.
Doing just such a thing is on my agenda once I settle on a "final" instrumentation package (although, with me, nothing like this ever seems to be truly final...), however it will be up to a forum moderator to decide whether or not to make it a sticky.

For someone who doesn't want to permanently install a wide-band sensor in their vehicle Innovate sells an "exhaust clamp" (sampling attachment) that inserts in the end of the exhaust pipe to sample the mixture. The next photograph shows the sampling attachment that I bought with my original meter.

[Linked Image]

The design is like a Pitot tube, with the exhaust flow past the holes in the side of the shorter tube reducing the pressure, drawing the mixture in the end of the longer tube, past the sensor, then back up the shorter tube and out the holes after a long round trip. However, this sampling attachment comes with the warning that it probably won't work on a single-cylinder engine (or a twin with separate pipes) because air is sucked back up the exhaust pipe some significant distance on each cycle. Unless the tip of the sampling unit is further up the pipe than that point, it will give bogus readings. Which it does with the stock sampling unit on my motorcycles. Although I overcame this problem with a "Bunsen valve" arrangement I discussed quite a while ago (possibly in a different thread), it wouldn't be an ideal solution for many people.

[Linked Image]

So, how far does air get drawn back up the pipe? Despite the relatively short pipe currently on my Catalina I know from the behavior of the meter that the location of the sensor doesn't suffer from the air reversion problem. It happens that the Catalina's "silencer" doesn't have anything in the center of it so it's a straight shot all the way to the bend in the header, just past the "permanent" sensor. Since the sampling unit is pretty much useless as-is, I extended it by 10" so it now reaches to the location seen in the photograph. This will let me answer the question at the beginning of this paragraph.

[Linked Image]

As a result of my instrumentation upgrading process I now have a second Bosch sensor and a separate control unit for it. Which means I can have my upgraded Mark II instrumentation package in place, but also use the elongated sampling unit to determine the depth into the pipe where reversion no longer is a problem. With a helper, AKA long-suffering wife, I can check this from idle up to at least a few thousand rpm while the bike is sitting in the driveway. Note that I'm not suggesting determining the jetting this way, since it wouldn't be under load, only determining the depth of the reversion.

This elongated sampling unit has two separate functions: as a test probe to determine the depth of reversion, and to determine the AFR on the road without having to modify the exhaust pipe or use a Bunsen valve. However, the latter relies on the design of the silencer so it won't work on all bikes. For example, it fits up the pipes of a Matchless G80 and Triumph 500, but not a Trident. Still, for bikes where it will work it is an alternative to either a Bunsen valve or permanent modification of an exhaust pipe.



Attached picture Innovate_probe.jpg
Attached picture Innovate_blankets.jpg
Attached picture Innovate_SamplingProbe.jpg
Posted By: BSA_WM20

Re: 1962 Catalina - 08/13/19 10:08 am

Originally Posted by Magnetoman
The first photograph shows work in progress.

[Linked Image]

It's actually nearly done, but I'm waiting for another LED to arrive before drilling the final holes. Shortly after the LED arrives this will become the upgraded Mark II "universal" instrumentation package that I've designed to clamp to just about any set of handlebars. What the photograph doesn't show is brazed underneath is an array of seven nuts to allow the clamp, shown in the second photograph, to connect to the platform as close as possible to the center of gravity irrespective of the location and orientation of the clamp on the handlebars (e.g. clip-ons are nearly horizontal, the unobstructed segments of ape hangers are nearly vertical, and typical handlebars are somewhere between these extremes).

[Linked Image]

The Manfrotto "Super Clamp," repurposed from its camera holding tasks, is perfect for this. It has a rated capacity of 33 lbs. but only will be holding less than 3 lbs. including the Manfrotto universal joint. Together they can position the platform in the best location on just about any bike, as well as hold it so it doesn't vibrate any more than the handlebars themselves do.

Mounted on the platform will be an Innovate MTX-L air/fuel gauge along with a data logger that will record data from that meter as well as from a "universal" throttle position sensor (that also clamps to handlebars), tachometer, accelerometer, exhaust gas temperature (EGT) sensor, and knock sensor. As mentioned previously, engines "feel" like they're running well with Air/Fuel Ratios anywhere between ~10:1 and ~15:1 so accurately adjusting the several circuits and jets in a carburetor for either max. h.p. or max. fuel economy requires just such instrumentation.

The compulsion to upgrade my Mark I instrumentation came over me a few weeks ago so I left the modified pipe on the Catalina in the meantime for the first test of it. Also part of the Mark II upgrade is a quick connect for the power at the platform and a 5A fuse at the battery, all the better to make the installation faster and reduce the chance of the battery exploding.



Yes, but the Manfrotto camera stand is for a stationary camera , not one mounted on a motorcycle getting buffetted by wind.
The scrim clamps are a lot stronger
And of course the ground rarely vibrates ( well not down here any way ) so the clamps might not be be too happy when that cam starts to sing.
The photographers who did not have a budget for camera rails used to clamp their gear onto wheel chairs and I have been called in to get some new clamps on more than one shoot.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 08/13/19 4:08 pm

Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
the clamps might not be be too happy when that cam starts to sing.
Of my various worries, the strength of the Manfrotto clamp for this task isn't one of them. However, I have a bigger problem at the moment. The garage A/C stopped working yesterday afternoon and record-breaking temperatures are predicted through Friday. Progress is at a stop until the A/C is functioning again.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 08/14/19 2:03 am

As an aside for people interested in magneto capacitors that fail, it was the capacitor in my four-year old A/C unit that had failed. The repairman told me they service units made in the 1950s that still have their original capacitors, but when the mandated change was made to environmentally friendly materials the lifetimes dropped to anywhere from 1 to 10 years. He said that replacing failed A/C capacitors is the largest category of their work. Although he got it fixed quickly, the day already had a 100 oF head start so it took much of the afternoon to get it down to a bearable temperature. Hence, not much progress was made today.

Discussion on another site made me realize that in the context of exhausts the word "reversion" refers to two separate, but interrelated, phenomena. One is the pressure wave that reaches the end of the pipe and then bounces back just in time, and with the right positive or negative amplitude, to either keep all the exhaust from escaping from the cylinder, or to help suck additional charge into the cylinder. Either way, performance can either suffer or benefit in the rpm range where such "pressure reversion" takes place. Here, essentially no physical transport of air/CO2 within the pipe has to take place. The reason is, pressure applied at one end of a long tube that's sealed at the other end also raises the pressure at the sealed end without transporting any of the additional gas molecules that were applied at the open end to raise the pressure.

For AFR measurements, the issue is the actual transport of O2 molecules from the open end of the pipe up some distance into the pipe (albeit, not nearly as far up the pipe as to reach the cylinder). In "reversion" of this type there is physical transport of O2 molecules, and if any of them make it as far as the AFR sensor they will screw up the measurement.

---- sidebar ---
The stock, open exhaust pipe on my Catalina's is 1.65"ID and 51" long, for a total volume of 1.79 liters. This would be enough to fill the cylinder more than three times over if all of it "reverted." The modified pipe and silencer I have on it now for AFR testing has the sensor 18" from the end, so if a volume of 647cc were uniformly drawn back into the cylinder then fresh air would reach the sensor. Which it doesn't. Interestingly, the sampling tip of my unmodified Innovate was 9.67" long, for a volume between it and the exit of the exhaust pipe of 339cc. There were reversion issues with it. However, that's not to say that at least 339cc is sucked back into the cylinder on each cycle. But it does say that that enough air is sucked far enough back that it, along with mixing, results in at least some fresh air reaching ~9.7" into the pipe.

For understanding this it is important to keep in mind that an AFR meter doesn't actually measure the AFR. It measures the amount of free O2 (or deficit of free O2) from which the controller then calculates the AFR. If the sensor detects no O2 whatever the controller displays that null result as '14.7'. Because the controller displays results calculated from deviations from 'zero' it takes only a tiny amount of wayward free O2 to generate a large bogus result.
------ end sidebar ---

A question asked on another site was how much effect an sampling probe causes. Afer testing the new Mark II instrumentation system I'll shove a probe up the exhaust and see what effect the disruption causes. The answer could turn out to be "a lot," given what the attached photographs show.

The first photograph is a side view of the sampling probe in a 1-3/4" OD pipe, and the second is an end-on view.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

The paired 3/8"-OD sampling tubes block a little over 10% of the exhaust pipe over a considerable length. Further, the fumes that manage to squeeze past that obstacle then encounter the fat sensor mount at the end of the tube, further hindering their escape. As the third photograph indicates, I can at least make the life of the exhaust fumes a little easier if I attach a new mounting point to the probe a few inches upstream from the current mounting point, which is what I'll do.

[Linked Image]


Attached picture Innovate_SamplingProbe02.jpg
Attached picture Innovate_SamplingProbe03.jpg
Attached picture Innovate_SamplingProbe04.jpg
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 08/14/19 8:23 pm

The following video is relevant for this thread

https://youtu.be/KjKUKhHQLHg

It nicely illustrates the fact that although you need the right data to arrive at a correct conclusion, having that data is useless if you don't know what it means. At 5'46" into the video the narrator says "Tuning a carburetor to fix an exhaust problem is somewhat like putting your arm in a sling to cure a headache." He is completely wrong, and because of this his conclusions are wrong.

Because of "reversion" with the straight pipes on the engine in the video there is a dip in mid-range h.p. accompanied by a too-rich mixture. If the narrator had understood the AFR data he would have realized the problem was with the carburetor, not with reversion due to resonance in the exhaust pipe. To replace his incorrect medical analogy with a relevant one, this video is like trying to cure a fever with aspirin when the actual problem is strep throat.

At one point in the video they installed a larger air bleed jet that the narrator said would increase the AFR in the midrange, but the subsequent AFR curves showed it had essentially no effect. At another point they installed a smaller main jet which resulted in an increase in AFR at high rpm. But, the problem is at lower rpm.

With an Amal (or Mikuni) there are enough adjustments to deal with mixture issues wherever they occur. However, rather than take advantage of the reversion by re-jetting the appropriate circuit in their carburetor that dominates the mixture in that rpm range, the narrator blamed the mid-range problem on the exhaust pipe and tried to kill the reversion rather than adjust the carburetor. Of course, this assumes the design of their S&S carburetor actually allows such an adjustment.

For our purposes any possible limitations due to the design of S&S carburetors aren't important, only whether or not an obstruction in the exhaust pipe interferes with the dynamics of the engine in such a way to affect the AFR when measured with an external probe. I hope to have the answer to that before much longer, although the current ten-day forecast is for temperatures 102-106 oF that entire period.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 08/15/19 4:00 pm

A Swag Off Road Portaband band saw stand is one of my most-used tools (e.g. I used it to cut the metal for this current project) so two or three years ago I bought one of their finger brakes because I thought it could be useful on some future project. It's heavy enough that I lifted its three component parts separately onto the press to avoid destroying my back, which indicates it should be rugged enough for any possible motorcycle-related task. Sure, I could have put the 0.040" stainless switch panel in the vise and bent it that way, but what's the point in having a finger brake and 30-ton press if you don't use them?

[Linked Image]

All the holes are drilled and tapped so, since I hope this Mark II platform ends up being Mark Final, it merited a coat of paint. Etching primer followed by a few hours baking in the 107 oF sun yesterday should provide a solid base for gloss black today, followed by a few hours baking in the predicted 109 oF sun.

[Linked Image]


Attached picture SwagFingerBrake.jpg
Attached picture InnovatePlatform01.jpg
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 08/16/19 11:50 pm

There have been two positive developments on my projects since yesterday. Two weeks ago I mentioned in my engine simulation thread that Windows had done an automatic update and as a result I could no longer print from my office computer. The update had installed something like three of four packages but the final one failed to install, no on-line information dealt with this problem, and nothing I tried to solve it worked. However, yesterday it did another update and what Microsoft tooketh away, Microsoft gaveth back. The computer again recognizes the existence of my printer.

The other development is I completed my Mark II instrumentation package. The Bosch AFR sensor should be turned on only after the engine is running so I positioned the on/off switch and used a large button to activate recording, all the better to operate both with a gloved finger. The LED next to the button flashes when it's recording and the LED below it flashes when triggered by the knock sensor. Not that it will matter very much, if at all, in practice, but since the LED that came with the knock controller is red I used a different color LED (orange) to indicate recording.

[Linked Image]

The Innovate AFR gauge flashes the instantaneous reading in the middle of the gauge at ~10 Hz as well as in an "analog" ring of LEDs around the outer edge. Since an "analog" meter is much more useful than digital for quickly mentally processing what is going on, and since the LEDs in the outer ring are brightest when viewed head on so, and since I can't tilt the platform (because then I couldn't use the internal accelerometers), I tilted the gauge in its mount.

As I wrote earlier, on the bottom of the platform is an array of seven nuts for attaching it to the Manfrotto clamp. I gave the platform multiple attachment points for maximum flexibility in mounting on various motorcycles. It's now mounted on the Catalina ready to go but a heat wave as well as other obligations likely means it will be a few weeks before I'll be able to test it on the road.

Attached picture Innovate_MarkII.jpg
Posted By: Kerry W

Re: 1962 Catalina - 08/17/19 11:07 pm

Oooohhh...an action video would be good!
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 08/18/19 5:49 am

Originally Posted by Kerry W
Oooohhh...an action video would be good!
I don't have a GoPro, and between the throttle, clutch, front brake, choke, and magneto my hands are usually pretty busy when underway, but I'll see what I can do.

Meanwhile, with Mark II finished (for now, at least), I turned my attention back to Mark 0 (nb. that's an Arabic 0 because the Romans never figured out how to deal with nothing). Mark 0 was my original system, consisting of an Innovate LM-1 for the AFR coupled to an LMA-2 for throttle position and rpm.

The LM-1 is limited to capturing only 44 min. of data in its internal memory (vs. >500 hrs. on an SD card with the Mark II system). However, for most purposes the limitation of "only" 44 min. of data at a time isn't much of a limitation at all. From my experience, when the LM-1's display indicated the jetting was wrong I wanted to head back to base to change it right away. And even when it indicated it was fairly good there wasn't any point in capturing data for longer than that before heading back to base to change it to be even better.

So, why did I "need" the Mark II? Well, I like instrumentation and data so that certainly was a factor. But, as an example, I live in the desert where it can be 105 oF at my house but 75 oF at the top of a nearby mountain. Being able to record for a long time will let me determine the effects on the carburetion over a fairly wide range of conditions within the span of an afternoon.

Anyway, since for accurately determining the proper jetting the Mark 0 is WAY better than no system at all, rather than abandon it entirely I spent a few minutes today modifying its mount so it now fits on the same Manfrotto clamp as does the Mark II. I also painted it. This gives me two complete AFR systems so I could think of Mark 0 as a backup to Mark II, or use it to instrument a twin, or store it in a box since even the Mark II won't get used very often. I suspect the third possibility is most likely...
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/04/19 5:42 pm

I was in the wilds of Ireland last week riding old motorbikes with my younger daughter (and 130 others) in the Irish Rally. A Catalina would be perfect for the back roads of Cork and Kerry that the routes took us along, although the G80CS I was on was a more than acceptable substitute. My daughter was on a pre-War Norton into which someone had shoe horned a 1000 cc side valve AJS V-twin, doing a good enough job with the installation and fake logos that it fooled more than one knowledgeable person ("I've never seen a Norton like that; what model is it?").

As an aside, Irish rain laughs in the face of Goretex. And, if you've already been soaked by the rain and think it couldn't get any wetter, riding into a low cloud obscuring the top of the mountain while it's also raining actually does make it wetter.

Anyway, back to AFR. A month or so ago the Innovate LMA-2 I was using prior to the subsequent upgrade abruptly died. Today I opened it up and the reason is quite apparent. Or, I should say, the symptom of the failure is quite apparent, since I don't know if the failure was due to the blown diode, or if the diode blew because of a failure somewhere else (such as in the Axicom relay to its left).

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Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 09/06/19 9:04 pm

I made a small addition to my data logging instrumentation today, in the form of a 6 ft. x 12 ft. enclosed trailer. Now I can easily load and haul my bikes to suitable locations out of town for jetting runs, download the data when back at the trailer, analyze it, make necessary changes using the tools and spares in the trailer, and repeat.

[Linked Image]

OK, the real reason I "needed" this trailer wasn't so much as an instrumentation accessory, but for such things as organizing mini-Cannonball rides with my friends. The bed of the pickup can hold two bikes (but little beyond that), and the trailer can hold three (although two would be optimum), so hauling two friends, three bikes, and a spare (a spare bike, not a spare friend) to some base hundreds of miles from here is now possible. If we took turns driving every third day means it could be a traveling road show rather than operating from a fixed base.

I've been cruising Craigslist off and on ever since the Cannonball a year ago, when every evening in the parking lot it was clear that having just such a trailer would have been much better than our U-Haul truck. I made notes then of how the various trailers were outfitted and had decided 6x12 was optimum for my purposes, although 6x10 (a bit too small) or 6x14 (unnecessarily long) would be acceptable. Although in in moments of desperation I considered horse trailers (which are in much greater abundance around here), which would have required quite a bit of modification to enclose, slow and steady wins the race and now the optimum 6x12 is in my driveway ready to be customized with tie down points, workbench, tool boxes, etc.

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Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/18/19 11:15 pm

Further data logging on the Catalina has been suspended for now. In preparation for a visit by NYBSAGUY next week I removed the instrumentation package from the Catalina and reinstalled its pipe and "silencer."[*] With a predicted high of 66 °F at the top of the nearby mountain next Tuesday this will be the first trip of the Catalina (motorcycle) into the Catalina (mountains). While I was at it I spent a few minutes straightening up the garage to fool him into thinking I maintain it to ISO 9000 standards (luckily, he's easily fooled).

Since octane is an issue, when I ran some errands later in the day I filled two 2-gal. containers with 91 octane that I then boosted to 97 for the Catalina and 101 for the Competition using Race Gas®. The Catalina (and BB) survived 1200 miles in Texas on the 93 available in that State, but since I need higher octane for the 10:1 piston in the Competition anyway I'd rather be safe than sorry with the Catalina so 97 (rather than 95) is my default level of steroids for it. Besides, the difference between turning 91 into 97 instead of 95 is "just" an additional 88 cents/gallon (on top of the $1.76/gallon needed to get it to 95). It's only money, right?...

On the trailer front, I moved it forward by about 10 ft. to place it closer to the welder for when it's time to fabricate the workbench. However, the real reason for moving it was so it wasn't blocking the Catalina' escape from the garage. Note to self: make sure the trailer doors can swing fully open before unhitching it and parking the truck so as not to have to do it all over again. Sigh... As of today I've started to think of TM's trailer hitch camera as more of a necessity than an option.


[*]For what it's worth, it took about 20 min. to get the Catalina back to road condition, so it probably would take twice that so to install the instrumentation package, including exhaust pipe with AFR sensor, on another Gold Star. Although it only would have taken a minute to remove it, I left the Bosch knock sensor mounted to the head because I'll be using it again, and it's completely out of the way there.
Posted By: Irish Swede

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/19/19 4:57 pm

You are getting WAAAYYY to scientific for our stone-age bikes!

How is the "First Spitfire" coming along?
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/20/19 3:11 pm

Originally Posted by Irish Swede
You are getting WAAAYYY to scientific for our stone-age bikes!
There are other experimental physicists who are motorcyclists (Virgil Elings immediately comes to mind) so I'm sure I'm not the first to misapply years of training toward making fundamental studies of these obsolete devices. But, I can't think of any other physicist who "publishes" their "research" on carburetors, magnetos, 6-spring clutches, etc. While of dubious benefit to mankind as a whole, hopefully it is of benefit to others beside myself.

Originally Posted by Irish Swede
How is the "First Spitfire" coming along?
The poor thing has resigned itself to waiting patiently in the corner until its turn in the spotlight comes again.


addendum:
On the subject of obsolete technology, I just stumbled across a stack of cards I hadn't seen in years.

[Linked Image]

These telephone cards were used in the short span of time in the 1990s between telephone booths existing and requiring coins to operate, and telephone booths disappearing completely from everywhere because cell phones took over. In order, they're from France, UK, Germany, Japan, Shanghai(*), Ukraine, and the Czech Republic. I must have tossed a few when they ran out because Italy is missing and maybe a few others.

(*) Not to be confused with China. If I remember correctly, at the time there were several incompatible systems of phone cards in use in different cities. I'm pretty sure I had a Beijing card as well at the time.

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Posted By: Kerry W

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/20/19 5:06 pm

Don't sell yourself short...the known world had been waiting for a proper explanation of BSA 6-spring clutches since 1947..
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/22/19 1:42 am

In a post a few months ago I mentioned how the knock sensor that's part of my Air Fuel Ratio instrumentation package that I had on the Catalina at the time confirmed that Race Gas® actually does raise the octane from 91 at the pump, to a value high enough to stop the knock. It's not cheap, roughly doubling the price of the fuel, but it's easier to use than it would be to change the 10:1 piston that's in my Competition Gold Star.

Anyway, a month ago I decided to acquire a small stock of Race Gas® to have on hand so I ordered a box of six 32-oz. cans (15% less than buying six individual cans) through Amazon. That's roughly enough for 3200 miles on the Catalina, or 1900 miles on the Competition (since its 10:1 piston needs higher octane and hence more Race Gas®). Tracking showed the box was shipped the day after I placed my order, but then there were no further updates for 3 weeks.[*]

After having disappeared from tracking for nearly a month, on Friday a card was left in our mailbox saying the box was being held at the Post Office. However, when I went there today it took a half hour to find it. The reason was, they finally discovered it sitting outside where it have been placed because it was leaking and giving off a pungent odor. The box was in a plastic bag that in turn was in a plastic container labeled "HAZMAT." It has been shipped 2-day air, but had taken almost a month to get to me.

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The USPS supervisor saw the name "Race Gas" on the shipping label and told me it was prohibited to send that stuff by mail, Although it isn't gasoline, which the Supervisor assumed it was from the name and which is prohibited, the chemicals listed on the bottles are both flammable and their vapors are dangerous. As an example, it contains toluene, which is prohibited for air shipment and only allowed in limited quantities by ground, and then only if the product containing it has been officially classified as safe. I'm just guessing, but presumably 1½ gallons of something flammable containing toluene wouldn't be considered a "limited quantity."

Anyway, when I got it home, driving with all the windows open, I discovered all the cans were dented and one of them was nearly empty.

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The other five cans are sitting outside because I don't now if all of them are leak-free and I don't want to put a possibly leaking can of that stuff in the enclosed garage. I've written to the company again about this problem as well as their choice of USPS at all, let alone 2-day air, to ship the product.

People who say motorcycles are dangerous don't even realize some of the other hazards we have to deal with. Better living through chemistry...

[*]I reported the problem to the company who then immediately shipped a replacement, which itself then disappeared from tracking the day after it was shipped, eleven days ago. But, that's a story to be continued in the future.

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Posted By: Kerry W

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/22/19 3:03 am

Working in aviation and qualified in the shipment of dangerous goods, without checking the relevant manual, I'd never expect air shipment, other than by 'Cargo Aircraft Only' to be likely..
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/22/19 3:35 pm

Originally Posted by Kerry W
I'd never expect air shipment, other than by 'Cargo Aircraft Only' to be likely..
Aside from the fire hazard, and the exposure of the ground crew to toxic fumes when they have to offload the baggage, unless the luggage compartment is sealed 100% from the passenger cabin, that would be a pretty pungent odor to be wafting through the cabin at 30,000 ft. if a can sprung a leak.

Tracking shows the box sent as a replacement when the first one was MIA made it to Denver today, twelve days after it was shipped from WI. Even for something shipped by ground that's a pretty long time to cover that distance so it may be on the same trajectory as the first box.

I haven't had a response from the company yet, but it's been less than a day since I wrote to them.


Addendum: I've now heard back from the company. The 5 bottles are mine to keep, as is the box of 6 that is currently in transit. If it gets here... But, if it does get here, together that will give me a ~5000 mile supply for each of those two bikes, so it should last for a while.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/23/19 5:11 am

NYBSAGUY showed up on my doorstep around noon and by 1:30 or so we were on our way to the top of the neighboring 8000 ft. mountain for lunch, riding the Catalina and Competition. The bikes are 95% the same, but the last 5% make them quite different. We rode at a non-GP, but non-sluggish rate, including 36 miles of city traffic out of the total of 90.2.

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We swapped bikes after lunch and stopped for fuel after 72 miles because this was the first test of the fuel consumption of both after all the carburetor work I did this past summer, and the Competition's tank only holds 2.2 gallons. Remarkably, the Competition got 69 mpg and the Catalina got 79.8 mpg, which means the range of the Competition is 152 miles and that of the Catalina (~2.75 gal. tank) 219 miles. Hmm, I wonder if the time spent sorting out the jetting with the AFR instrumentation has anything to do with the low fuel consumption?

It's a good thing we stopped when we did because the Competition's head had a lot of oil on it. Closer inspection showed the oil feed line to the rockers had broken off completely at the banjo fitting. However, from the amount of oil, it must have happened within just the past few hundred feet. Luckily, I was able to cobble together a temporary fix with Tygon tube, fuel line, electrical tape, and a zip tie from my toolkit to get us the last 18 miles home.

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So, it was a perfect Britbike ride. Great weather, great bikes, great road, the drama of a breakdown, the satisfaction of a fix, and the anxiety of the last 18 miles.

Oh, and the Competition's tach stuck at 4000 rpm part way up the mountain, but there's a clue to the source of the problem.

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The drive gear was hanging on by a thread but the driven gear was missing, and I don't think I have a spare gear or drive, so please let me know if you have a tach drive you're willing to part with.


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Posted By: Kerry W

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/23/19 5:15 am

I've always despised those rocker oil feed setups..the SRM 'manifold' relieved me of the heartache forever; singles and twins.
Posted By: Kerry W

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/23/19 5:18 am

No spare nacho drives or parts, sorry, but Phil Pearson might do - I think he was making them from scratch.

Have seen your problem before - hence the commonly seen split pin through the casing to hold the plug in..
Posted By: NYBSAGUY

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/23/19 12:01 pm


I swear I never revved it over 4,000, yer onner!

I don't know what was worse, on those 18 miles back to MMan's house, the worry that the rocker box would suddenly seize, or that my leg would soon get splattered with hot oil.

Both bikes ran fabulously well. I rode the Catalina on the first leg, and what a joy it is to ride. It started first kick, thanks to MMan's magneto. The gearing is perfect for a spirited ride up an 8,000ft mountain, and the trawl through midday traffic wasn't too bad. Interestingly, it did lose some pep above 5,000 feet or so, which we decided was because of the thin, hot, air making it run a little too rich.

After a quick lunch, I rode the Competition for the descent back to reality, and what a sweet bike that is, with a riding position very similar to that of a Ducati Monster.

Like Kerry W, I've never liked the look of those banjo oil pipes, and after this adventure, I am opting for one of those SRM cast pieces
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/24/19 12:43 am

Another day, another Gold Star ride. With the Competition on the lift awaiting repair of its oil line the choice to go with the BB was narrowed down to the Catalina. Because of work we had to do we didn't have much time today but did manage 35 miles. Having ridden all three back-to-back, NYBSAGUY is in a position to comment on what he feels to be the pros and cons of the three Gold Star variations (not to be confused with the Goldberg Variations).

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Originally Posted by Kerry W
the SRM 'manifold' relieved me of the heartache forever
They'll be on order shortly.


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Posted By: NYBSAGUY

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/24/19 3:03 pm

MMan has challenged me to share my thoughts on riding each of his bikes, the DBD Catalina, the DBD Competition and the BB Road Model, and this is quite a task. They are three Gold Stars, after all, and 95% exactly the same. But each one is completely different from the other, and each one huge fun to ride.

The Competition rides like a cafe racer without clip ons. The narrow, flat, Vincent bars (we used to call them 'Vinnie bars' around Dublin when I was young) look fantastic and feel very good to ride. There's no exaggerated lean, as there would be with clip-ons. In any case, like MMan, I have aged out of clip-ons, so my back was thankful. As on all three bikes, and probably thanks to the extended jetting experiments conducted my MMan over the last year, all three engines are crisp and responsive, with no flat spots, and plenty of power. In this respect, they all feel like modern bikes.

MMan calls the BB a 'gentleman's bike' and I would agree. It feels similar to the Competition, but with slightly higher and wider bars, it is very comfortable to ride. Both the BB and the Competition are light and quick handling. We both own Ducati Monsters and the BB is the one I think is closest to the Monster in feel, mainly due to its slightly wider, higher bars.

And then there's the Catalina. If the other bikes are gentlemanly in their manners, the Catalina is a western cowboy. For reasons that I haven't quite figured out, and haven't measure, it is taller than the other two. It's a scrambler, of course, so the riding position is upright. It has a 'silencer' on the end of its long pipe, but I would love to compare the DBs with and without the silencer. I bet there is less than 5db in noise difference. The engine is crisp and powerful, like the other two, but in overall feel it compares very well with a modern KTM enduro. I loved it, which is lucky, since I have one, waiting to be rebuilt.

As you would expect from MMan's bikes, the gearboxes of all three bikes were perfect, and the clutches light. It was easy to flick down from 4th to 3rd going into a bend, and I never found myself with an unwanted neutral. After I got off the BB last evening, MMan said he found a neutral emerging between 3rd and 4th, so I guess something is happening that will need attention.

All three bikes start first kick, although I had to jump start both the Competition and the Catalina when they were hot (we're in Arizona, ahem, things get hot), MMan charitably puts this down to my clumsy mis-handling of the levers/throttle/carb tickler, and he is probably right.

Overall, I think the BB was the nicest to ride of the three, with perfect manners. But my favorite is the Catalina, by a hair.

Posted By: Kerry W

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/24/19 7:46 pm

Nice little write-up and perspective on 3 nicely prepared machines.

I'm sure I've lost the plot of these things somewhere over time, but a recap by MM, of the setup of each bike, regarding compression, valve sizes (scrambles/touring/clubmans, where there are differences, cams, carb and pipes) would be interesting and give some real-time perspective on the 'desktop-dyno' results that are surely percolating away there!
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/24/19 8:52 pm

Originally Posted by NYBSAGUY
After I got off the BB last evening, MMan said he found a neutral emerging between 3rd and 4th, so I guess something is happening that will need attention.
Toward the end of our Texas ride two years ago, under certain circumstances when shifting up from 2nd the BB go to a false neutral and when that happened the only way to get to 3rd would be to give it another click into 4th, then a click back down to 3rd. After that trip I screwed the selector plunger in all the way and it seemed that might have cured the problem. However, yesterday I hit that false neutral twice. Luckily, I have an STD.T on the shelf. I had previously thought of rebuilding it and swapping it into the BB so that thought now will have to turn to action.

As for the broken oil line on the Competition, upon reflection I believe the tank was pushing against the rocker oil line so I'm blaming this for the break. I had swapped tanks on the bike this past spring and until this week probably had ridden it no more than 25 miles total when doing the Concentric experiments. Anyway, Kerry W's mention of the SRM manifold triggered a repressed memory, prompting me to look in a particular box where I found I already have a Webco manifold.

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SRM proudly emblazes their initials in large letters on the outside of their manifold but I prefer Webco's more discrete placement on the inside. I'll use it on the Competition.

Originally Posted by Kerry W
a recap by MM, of the setup of each bike, regarding compression, valve sizes (scrambles/touring/clubmans, where there are differences, cams, carb and pipes)
Unfortunately, I don't have a complete set of information for all three bikes.

Competition: This has scrambles cams in it, although I believe they were shipped by the factory with Clubman inlet cams. It has the factory-original 10:1 piston and SCT gearbox, a 'twitter' silencer, and shares whatever valves were original to Clubman DBDs in 1963 Also, it has a "4-strokerized" 1036 Concentric. I can't find in my notes what engine sprocket it has, but the (replaceable) rear wheel sprocket is 50T rather than the fixed 42T of other models so it's geared at least 8% lower than the other two bikes (and even lower still if it has scrambles engine and/or gearbox sprockets). Like with the other two bikes, I rebuilt the magneto and remagnetized it.

The Catalina and BB came to me from the estate of someone in town so, having not had either of those engines apart, the information about their internals is limited to what was in the guy's notes.

Catalina: It has a 1-5/32" Monobloc as listed as correct for '56-'63 'Scrambles' Gold Stars. After our Texas ride I installed a 21T engine sprocket to replace the correct 18T, and a 19T gearbox sprocket to replace the correct 16T. It came to me with an SCT having a slightly bent mainshaft so I later rebuilt an ASCT and swapped the gearboxes. Unfortunately, I have no idea what cams, valves, or piston it has. It has a standard Catalina long pipe onto which I bolted a short "silencer" of dubious silencing ability.

BB: The builder's notes say it has a 65-1632 intake and 65-1633 exhaust valve, 21T engine sprocket and 19T gearbox sprocket (i.e. the same as is now in the Catalina). Also, it has a 0.060"-over piston, but the CR wasn't noted, nor were the cams noted. On it is a 930 Concentric, the standard exhaust pipe and a 'twitter' silencer. The gearbox doesn't have a code stamped on it, but the ratios feel like STD.

The BB has a 19" rear rim and the Catalina 18", but the fatter tire on the Catalina gives them nearly the same OD so, because they have the same sprockets, the overall gearing of these two bikes is essentially the same, while that of the Competition is lower. Given how I intend to use these bikes in the years to come, at some point the Competition's primary cover will come off and the engine sprocket increased to 21T if it isn't already there. Since the bike is already on the lift waiting for the oil line to be dealt with, this may happen sooner rather than later.


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Posted By: Kerry W

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/25/19 2:40 pm

All good information, thanks
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/25/19 5:07 pm

I certainly didn't "need" three Gold Stars so the thought of owing more than the Competition I already had never crossed my mind. But, a combination of my own circumstances, the bad luck of someone I knew (i.e. he died), and a chance encounter, resulted in the BB, Catalina and a very large stash of singles parts ending up in my garage. Although they're all Gold Stars, as NYBSAGUY wrote, these three bikes are 95% the same, but completely different.

Basically, having these three Gold Stars "forced" me to buy the trailer I'm now customizing. A 500-mile semi-circle places the entire southwest within a day's drive of where I live, allowing two friends and me to enjoy riding identical, but completely different, bikes through some of the best scenery in the country. And, thanks to what I learned on the Cannonball about keeping old bikes alive for 3000 miles, if (when...) any of these 60-year old bikes break, have a pretty good chance of being able to fix the problem with the tools and spares waiting in the trailer back at the motel.

It probably will never happen, but I have delusions of a Three Flags Gold Star Ride® that winds its way through the Rockies with a driver following along behind with the trailer.

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Posted By: Cyborg

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/25/19 5:24 pm

I don’t have a spare tach drive, but I do have a box containing a few NOS gears that (going from questionable memory) look as though they belong inside one of those.... not positive though. Just a matter of determining what ratio they are and if indeed they are correct for that drive. I’m afloat at the moment, so will check when I return. One of my tach drives obviously did that at some time in the past. It has a Cdn penny inserted in there now to retain the gear. +1 on drilling and adding a split pin, unless one of the later ?? ones with the circlip.
If someone has a photo of the gear or knows the # of teeth that would make life easier.
Then there is the question of reversing or non reversing I suppose..... probably easier for you to find a complete gearbox, but I’ll have a look anyway.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/25/19 6:07 pm

Originally Posted by Cyborg
probably easier for you to find a complete gearbox, but I’ll have a look anyway.
Thank you very much for that offer, but last night I found a NOS drive listed on eBay and tracking shows it should be delivered to me on Tuesday. That, plus the Webco rocker manifold, will have the Competition back to the way it was before the latest adventure. However, since the bike is on the lift anyway I'll pull the primary cover off to see what engine sprocket it has. If I find it's the smaller scrambles sprocket I'll switch to the larger Clubman.

I hate to abandon repairable items so if you're not too seasick when you return from your voyage, and if you can figure out left-from-right and vice versa from the photo of the 10T drive gear, and if you happen to have a mating 10T driven gear, I'd love to buy it from you. Actually, laid side-by-side the correct 1:1 driven gear will look similar to my drive gear except it will have its teeth angled in the opposite direction and the end of the shaft will have a slot in it to mate to the spade of a Chronometric cable.

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Posted By: NYBSAGUY

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/25/19 7:55 pm


Please put me down for the 3 Flags ride. I'll even take a turn at driving the truck n trailer. And I'll try not to break anything, but I can't promise.
Posted By: gunner

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/25/19 8:25 pm

Great to see you guys had a good ride out in favorable weather, blue sky's and nice scenery. I've just put my bikes back in the garage to overwinter so I'm missing riding them, excepting maybe the occasional ride out on favorable warmer dry days, when there;s no salt on the roads.

Regarding the broken rocker oil feed, this was a common occurrence back in the day, most often happening where the single pipe from the oil feed joins the two feeds to the rockers. I believe the original rocker oil feed pipes were made from copper but modern versions available seem to be made from a silver colored alloy presumably more resistant to breaking but I don't know. The SRM/Webco oil manifolds look good and appear to use a rubber pipe connected to the inlet which would be more flexible. On some unit singles I have owned, I used two brake banjo fittings connected together with stainless braid reinforced pipe and connected to the oil return, you need to get these made up by someone with the right tools but the seemed to work well enough without any leaks as long as copper washers are used on the rockers.
Posted By: Cyborg

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/25/19 9:44 pm

30-45 knot winds in the straight coming from the NW, so has few hundred miles to build up a head of steam,. May be wise to hide until tomorrow. Leaving the boat on the Island and taking a ferry back, but they have cancelled a few already. I’ll scribble out a codicil and leave you the gears just in case....
Posted By: gavin eisler

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/25/19 10:14 pm

The end cap might have come off because it was over packed with grease, 2/3 max for greased bearings, more than that , badness happens.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/25/19 11:06 pm

Originally Posted by gunner
Great to see you guys had a good ride out in favorable weather, blue sky's and nice scenery.
For three months of the year it's too hot to ride at low altitudes, but a trailer towed into the mountains by an air-conditioned truck solves that issue. For the other nine months the weather is pretty close to perfect for riding, although the mountains are off limits unless you have snow tires on your bike.

Originally Posted by gunner
I believe the original rocker oil feed pipes were made from copper ... SRM/Webco oil manifolds look good and appear to use a rubber pipe connected to the inlet which would be more flexible.
Copper work hardens, which may be the root cause. Although the manifolds are "vibration isolated" by rubber tubing, it well might be rock hard at this point.

[Linked Image]

I'll replace the tubing on the BB (top in the photo) and Catalina (bottom) with sections of soft tubing, as well as use it to connect the Webco manifold that will go on the Competition.

Originally Posted by NYBSAGUY
Please put me down for the 3 Flags ride. ...I'll try not to break anything, but I can't promise.
It wouldn't be prudent to make such a trip without a backup bike. If I took the time to assemble it, my rigid-frame M21 would be in the overall spirit of the event while serving as the 'Gold Star of Shame' to be assigned to whoever broke the real thing beyond immediate repair.

I may have mentioned it before, but two years ago on the 1200-mile British Singles Ride in Texas organized by Allan and Debbie Johncock, about ten of us were supported by a bigger trailer than mine that followed us across the State driven by Debbie. However, during that week it ended up carrying only one bike, and that was only because someone wanted to ride in comfort rather than make the uninteresting 300-mile slog back to home base on the last day. The rest of the time the trailer was mostly empty, only carrying our suitcases and a small supply of tools and supplies. Anyway, the point is, if the bikes are in reasonably good shape a trailer can support more of them than it can hold.

Originally Posted by Cyborg
30-45 knot winds in the straight coming from the NW... I’ll scribble out a codicil and leave you the gears just in case....
The good news is I got a gear. The bad news is, I got it because a Canadian is missing at sea...

Originally Posted by gavin eisler
The end cap might have come off because it was over packed with grease,
I can't say that's not possible but, while the grease dripping out looks fresh, it's at least ten years old.

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Posted By: NYBSAGUY

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/26/19 1:03 pm

Gunner's solution seems really interesting, and aesthetically pleasing. To have two banjos connected by s/s braided line, into which the oil feed is plumbed.

He says, quite correctly, that such a fitting would need to be fabricated by someone with the right tools. Happens that I know a person with ALL the right tools (quite an aladdin's cave, actually). MMan, add this to your list of challenges - making perfect braided hoses for oil feeds.
Posted By: Kerry W

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/26/19 3:35 pm

The braided lines between unions sounds elegant, but they always seem to move when you tighten them up...which is one reason why I like a well-fitting solid thing like the Webco/SRM device.

Years ago, I owned a 450 Desmo single Ducati (not selling it would have kept me out of a world of hurt with racing Yamaha two strokes..), with the usual camber drain via rigid pipes to the tower shaft..they always leaked a little and seemed to move a little when one tightened them up as much as one dared, and being rigid...they still seemed to move!
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/26/19 4:37 pm

Originally Posted by NYBSAGUY
MMan, add this to your list of challenges - making perfect braided hoses for oil feeds.
I'll get right on it, as soon as I perfect the technique for running braided oil lines to the LED lights in my trailer.
Posted By: Cyborg

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/26/19 7:29 pm

Unfortunately the only one that comes close has more than 10 teeth.... sorry about that. It was an interesting ride home. Some bone rattling shudders going through the ship a few times. Crew running around yelling stay calm and handing out barf bags until they were directed to take their seats. What a gong show. Could have been worse... another (larger) ferry was just behind us which got all the way across the straight and then decided it was too risky to dock. They turned around and headed back all the way across amongst the islands where the berth is more sheltered.



[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]57C2C8E8-BF3A-4081-A6F5-3AA8588773A4 by First Last, on Flickr
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/26/19 8:22 pm

Originally Posted by Cyborg
Unfortunately the only one that comes close has more than 10 teeth.
It's good you made it to shore because Gordon Lightfoot's song writing has slowed down a lot in recent years. Thanks for looking. It's probably going to be pretty hard to find just this one gear but the present housing and gear will wait patently in a labeled baggie in case one ever turns up.
Posted By: Steve Erickson

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/27/19 4:08 am

MM, regarding your Three Flags Ride, you may be interested in reading this old thread... 5 Victors on the Continental Divide, 3 countries in a couple weeks.

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbt...xico-to-canada-on-441s-yoicks#Post234359
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/27/19 3:28 pm

Originally Posted by Steve Erickson
this old thread... 5 Victors on the Continental Divide, 3 countries in a couple weeks.
Thanks for posting that. But, the thread certainly didn't have a happy ending.
Posted By: Steve Erickson

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/27/19 7:47 pm

Without sounding too maudlin about this, that trip was, from talking to him, the most important experience that father ever had with his son(s). It gave them a sharing experience that could not have been duplicated, and is his strongest, most pleasant memory of his boy. In that respect, the journey part of the thread was pretty positive.

The coda was truly unhappy, but certainly not the adventure.
Posted By: Magnetoman

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/27/19 8:26 pm

Originally Posted by Steve Erickson
that trip was the most important experience that father ever had with his son(s). It gave them a sharing experience that could not have been duplicated,
For the past five or so years my younger daughter has flown over from New York to join me on the Irish Rally. This year the other two we normally ride with were out of commission after the first day so just the two of us rode our old Brit bikes through the spectacular scenery (and rain...) of the west of Ireland, pulling over whenever either of us felt like it, and enjoying each other's company silently when riding and in conversation when stopped. So, I completely understand what you mean by an experience that could not have been duplicated.
Posted By: Steve Erickson

Re: 1962 Catalina - 10/28/19 2:22 am

My apologies for the downer, this post was intended to inspire with the experience. And to assure you that this trip just may not be all that unrealistic.

End of hijack.
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