Britbike forum
Posted By: Richrd still trying to find joy - 07/26/20 10:18 pm
Before this mess hit I had the bike running and was beginning to like it. But on the first trip out of the neighborhood it locked up and took out the crank shells.

I had the crank ground and reassembled it as carefully as I could. WITH AN OIL GAUGE! After a few rides around the neighborhood I went out for about 10 miles. What I find is about 70 psi on start up but as it warms up the pressure drops. It sat at 40 for a couple miles then dropped to 30. I was tip toeing home by then.

So my question, is there something to check? Or just go for a new oil pump?

Thanks
Posted By: htown Re: still trying to find joy - 07/27/20 1:25 am
30 hot at say 4000 rpm is definitely too low to ride. Generally cold start numbers don't mean much but sometimes they can give a clue as even with worn bearings they can be quite high. 70 cold seems low even on a worn engine. Do you trust the gauge?
When you had the crank turned did you do both the rod journals and the plain shell main journals?
Posted By: Tridentman Re: still trying to find joy - 07/27/20 2:12 am
Ref the oil pressures you quote— what were the speeds relating to the oil pressures?
Posted By: DavidP Re: still trying to find joy - 07/27/20 4:33 am
FWIW: My Triples Unlimited gauge shows about 82psi on startup, and it stays there for maybe 5 or 6 miles. After maybe 10 miles it's down to 60psi at 4-5000rpm. 20 to 25 miles and it reads 40-50psi.
Once I get home the idle pressure is maybe 10psi, oil temperature is 180 degrees, just where the cooler thermostat opens.
I inspected the pump and renewed gasket and O rings when I rebuilt the clutch.
The clock shows 17K miles, so I doubt that the bottom has ever been serviced. It's still has standard pistons.
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 07/27/20 11:48 am
all journals were ground, it's a new triples unlimited gauge, and rpm has very little efffect on the pressure
Posted By: koan58 Re: still trying to find joy - 07/27/20 3:29 pm
There was obviously a problem that caused the (presumably) rod bearing lock up.
It was good that you got off with relatively minor damage.

Assuming the crank hadn’t been reground previously, that was most likely due to low oil pressure.
This may have been due to a pump problem, or more commonly due to wear of the centre mains.

When a triple crank is reground, it is essential that the centre main journals are ground using the outer main journals as the end centres (so all 4 mains are precisely concentric).
Using any other centres will not achieve this concentricity.

I only mention this, because a car crankshaft regrinder may not take this into consideration, as they will usually grind all main journals (including the outer main journals) using the end centres of the shaft.
In your case, they wouldn’t have reground the outer main journals.
Posted By: Adam M. Re: still trying to find joy - 07/27/20 5:06 pm
Originally Posted by Richrd
all journals were ground, it's a new triples unlimited gauge, and rpm has very little efffect on the pressure

Very strange behavior, with my bike every move of a throttle causes an oil gauge to shot into higher pressure.
Did you used plastigage during rods assembly?
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 07/27/20 9:17 pm
I starte to use plasticgage but the brit machinist said he had everything fitted. he's strickly brit bike, no car or asian stuff.

thats why i..m questioning the pump.
Posted By: Semper Gumby Re: still trying to find joy - 07/28/20 12:12 am
Richard.

If this an old bike being renewed...and if you haven’t already done it...

Pullout the oil pump and replace the gasket between the back case of the pump and the case.
We also lapped the back of the pump to make sure is was smooth and flat.
Also replace the two o-rings. Replacing this on my 69 r3 brought the oil pressure back up.
Also pulled and cleaned the opr valve.

There is a good chance that the gasket on the back is no longer sealing.

YRMV
Posted By: Tridentman Re: still trying to find joy - 07/28/20 2:12 am
+1 for the OPRV
Posted By: kommando Re: still trying to find joy - 07/28/20 3:51 pm
OPRV +2

A weak spring or incorrectly set too low OPRV will show a low pressure at all revs.
Posted By: htown Re: still trying to find joy - 07/28/20 5:11 pm
Cold oil pressure of 70 may be pointing to problem with oprv. Generally over 90 even with a worn engine.
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 07/28/20 7:44 pm
I find it interesting that no one has questioned the pump. but more important, is it possible to pull the oprv without pulling the motor?
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 07/28/20 7:45 pm
oil filter tube/ the book shows the spring in the back of the tube. Mine had the spring in the recess in the cab. is the book right?
Posted By: L.A.B. Re: still trying to find joy - 07/28/20 8:04 pm
Originally Posted by Richrd
oil filter tube/ the book shows the spring in the back of the tube. Mine had the spring in the recess in the cab. is the book right?

No. The spring goes between the cap and filter as you have it.
Posted By: DMadigan Re: still trying to find joy - 07/28/20 11:57 pm
The pump body is steel so unless you took it apart and did not tighten the bolts there is little reason to believe it would cause low pressure and not varying with RPM. The pumps rarely go bad so at worst you have to tighten up the body bolts, change the base plate gasket and tighten the pump case screws.
Posted By: htown Re: still trying to find joy - 07/29/20 12:08 am
As l understand, the oprv can be removed with the engine in the frame. I've not done it before, maybe someone else can chime in with some tips.
Posted By: DavidP Re: still trying to find joy - 07/29/20 1:05 am
Likewise, some of these guys swear they can get it out with the engine complete. I've never done it unless the primary and clutch were out of the way.
Could be that someone assembled the OPRV with a spring from a twin?
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 07/29/20 2:06 am
I've got a Ducati on one table and a Honda with melted wires on the other so it will be a few days before I attack the oprv.

I'm not mu h for true confessions but I did put one together backward once. That's why I think this one is correct. But I'll see.
Posted By: Bodie Re: still trying to find joy - 07/29/20 2:13 am
Correct !!
I'd be swearing for sure if I had to strip down the whole f&@%!^ clutch & inner primary just to access that little sodding oil pressure relief valve ,

With the bike on the sidestand .. A socket set .. Good light .. Plus maybe a mirror & working in from the Timing side are the best tips I can give you,
No special tools or lessons in yoga are needed for the job .
Posted By: quinten Re: still trying to find joy - 07/29/20 4:01 am
Never done it but the book says
the pressure relief valve lives right in front to the oil lines
up underneath the bike .
so it is highly accessible if you lift the bike High Enough or can slither like a snake underneath the bike .
Triumph made a special tool for it ... which looks like a very cheap stamped thin wall socket .
[Linked Image from baxtercycle.com]

first step is to get your eyeballs on it and then make a plan .
like ... must the oil lines be removed ? What else is in the way ? .
Posted By: DMadigan Re: still trying to find joy - 07/29/20 4:01 am
The OPRV can be accessed without disassembling the motor. You need a deep well 1" socket to get on the base hex. The cap is 15/16" so if you do not have a deep 1" you can try taking it out by the cap hex. A 1.41" diameter socket will fit in there.
The OPRV is located right above the oil pipes. You probably will have to remove the oil lines to get access.
Posted By: Bodie Re: still trying to find joy - 07/29/20 8:11 am
It's no more slithering like a snake than removing the sump plate & brass filter gauze , And I don't have the luxury of using a bike lift or hoist either .

My choice of weapon for this job was a 3/4" drive & 9/16 Whitworth socket .. 5/8 BS ..

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

if I can lay on my back holding a socket in one hand while taking pictures with the other free hand i'm pretty sure everyone else here could quite easily do the same thing and totally remove the oil pressure valve , ( no mirror needed here )

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

As you can see below > This supposed impossible to get at oil pressure valve actually 'lives' right above the oil lines and so with a little effort it suddenly becomes very accessible .

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

And no I didn't remove the OPRV this time around , The pictures were taken just to prove that removal 'IS' possible .
Posted By: BigBars Re: still trying to find joy - 07/29/20 11:45 am
Thanks for that Bodie. My triple has a flat plate under the hoses (to protect them I think) and that makes the hoses a bit more "In your face." I gave up, but with those pics it does look easy and I'll try again.

Is your bike on the centre stand in that picture, (or is there no centre stand)? I seem to remember it also causing some trouble.

Cheers

Brett
Posted By: DavidP Re: still trying to find joy - 07/29/20 4:13 pm
Thanks Bodie,
I had only viewed it from the timing side. Looked like the oil lines were in the way. I'll have another look.
Posted By: quinten Re: still trying to find joy - 07/29/20 4:29 pm
Excellent photo essay Bodie !
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 07/30/20 2:33 am
so bodie, do you have a centerstand on there?

I had to grind the hell out of a socket to get on the nut, but there is too much angle to get the extention on it.
Posted By: Bodie Re: still trying to find joy - 07/30/20 5:51 am
No there isn't a centre stand fitted ,
That was one of the first modifications I did years ago after i found it badly reduced the ground clearance when cornering .
There's nothing been cut or ground down on the socket i use ; it's just an old King Dick brand i bought back in the 70's .

Here's a slightly longer shot i just took showing the centre stand fixing lugs ,
I guess it's possible that a centre stand could pose a problem ? , But i'm not about to fit my one back on just to find out ? .
I'm guessing there's around 15 to 20mm of clearance between the bottom frame tube & the socket extension , I'd have thought that would be a long way clear of the centre stand if it were actually fitted .

(Has anyone else got a question ? i'm really starting to get the hang of all this slithering and taking pictures grin )
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
Posted By: Semper Gumby Re: still trying to find joy - 07/30/20 2:16 pm
Richard,

When the OPRV was disassembled and the bits cleaned and washed, the spring may have been shimmed with a thin washer. 😉

Good luck.
Posted By: Adam M. Re: still trying to find joy - 07/30/20 4:41 pm
Bodie, I see you have a Rocket 3 too.
Which bike do you prefer?
You can answer it now when Richard is dismantling and checking his OPRV. smile
Posted By: Tridentman Re: still trying to find joy - 07/30/20 5:19 pm
Hi Bodie--many thanks for the very useful and practical contribution (doubled in its value with the photos) which I am sure many people will find useful in the future.
You mention getting down on the floor to do the work and take the photos.
I dont find it a problem to get down on the floor and work.
It is getting back up again that is the problem!
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 07/30/20 9:14 pm
I found joy. She's a fat blonde with anger problems!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

without going into details, the oprv is out, not shimmed, but very heavily springed. sprung?

the oill pump is also out, gasket is good and in place. I hear about the two o rings, but notice the book says one. I have two fine diameter orings on the pump now. to be clear, where exactly do they sit, on or two.

what else can i look at for the missing pressure? I find it hard to believe its the crank.
Posted By: L.A.B. Re: still trying to find joy - 07/30/20 9:26 pm
Originally Posted by Richrd
the oill pump is also out, gasket is good and in place. I hear about the two o rings, but notice the book says one. I have two fine diameter orings on the pump now. to be clear, where exactly do they sit, on or two.

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/741851/oil-pump-o-rings
Posted By: htown Re: still trying to find joy - 07/31/20 1:58 am
Free length measurement for the spring is 1 3/8(34.925MM) inches per the shop manual. Opening pressure is supposed to be 90 psi. What year engine is this? Early ones have feeds for the tappets from the mains. These should be blocked off.
Posted By: Bodie Re: still trying to find joy - 07/31/20 2:39 am
Originally Posted by Adam M.
Bodie, I see you have a Rocket 3 too.
Which bike do you prefer?
Originally Posted by Tridentman
Hi Bodie--I dont find it a problem to get down on the floor and work.
It is getting back up again that is the problem!
Hi Adam & Richard , I think I can answer you both here with the one reply thumbsup

All my triples are Rockets , At the moment I've got 2 on the road & one up on the work bench ,
So i don't really know any difference .. (closest I got in the Triumph brand is a T140 ) .. I'd really like to take a T150 out for a good long ride though just to find out for myself , I'm guessing there would have to be > "maybe slower perhaps like pulling a double adult sidecar around ? wink laughing " < .. I did read somewhere a long time ago that buyers much preferred the riding position of the T150 compared to that of the R3 hence the bigger sales , Comfort didn't used to really bother me much until recently - For 50yrs I've always flown the BSA flag but I think my aching body is now starting to convince me otherwise , I can even feel the difference in ride comfort between my Mk1 69 and the 71 Mk2 , Same frame /seat / footpegs / handlebars / tank ?? I can't work it out but the 71 Mk2 is "slightly" more comfortable - But then i much prefer the look of the 69 - Oh dear I can see I might end up having to buy a T150 and put a BSA tank on it facepalm
Posted By: Bodie Re: still trying to find joy - 07/31/20 3:37 am
Originally Posted by Richrd
what else can i look at for the missing pressure? I find it hard to believe its the crank.
Originally Posted by htown
Early ones have feeds for the tappets from the mains. These should be blocked off.

Hell perish the thought ! but either one of these could hold the answer , The oil pump o rings you mention don't have any influence over oil pressure , They only help seal the pump into the primary cases and prevent oil leaking out of the engine / back into the clutch area etc and out onto the garage floor.
I don't know if Richard has blanked off the tappet feeds but I think my next move would be to pull off the sump plate & check see if a crank oilway grub screw or if it's been blanked off ? a tappet feed blanking screw is laying in the sump ? , You might have to do a little searching with a finger or help with a small magnet inside the bottom of the cases because the way they're cast there's "want for a better description" small chambers / hiding holes on each side of the sump access hole once the plate is removed ,
Posted By: BigBars Re: still trying to find joy - 07/31/20 5:49 am
Originally Posted by Richrd
without going into details, the oprv is out,

.

Don't hold us in suspense ;-) , how did you get it out finally? was it when you removed the covers to get to the oil pump?
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 07/31/20 11:49 am
its a 74. no tappet oil pipes. on the stupid question side, is it possible that is the gauge giving false readings?
Posted By: Adam M. Re: still trying to find joy - 07/31/20 1:49 pm
This is always a possibility. I'd use another one just to check it.
But would try Bodie suggestion about taking off a sump plate first, just to make sure about a grub screw, when OPRV is out anyway.
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 07/31/20 2:04 pm
Crank oilways were cleaned and plugs were replaced with allen plugs. But I guess I could check.

Free length on spring is 1.51 inch. Quite a bit more than the books 1 3/8
Posted By: DMadigan Re: still trying to find joy - 07/31/20 2:05 pm
Unlikely a grub screw as he had 70 PSI on start up and down to 40 PSI after ten minutes. A missing blanking screw in the oil system would give low pressure at start up. It has to be heat related
Did you measure the crank in any way before assembling? Did you use a torque wrench on the crank main caps and rod caps? You can check the middle cylinder rod cap through the sump plate.
Check the clearance of the ORV piston and bore. A weak spring would give low pressure but consistent when hot.
Gauges can be off but I do not believe they can change when the engine heats up. The heat does not get to the gauge because of the long oil line (for mechanical gauges). An electronic gauge with a sensor on the motor could change with temperature. You did not specify which you have.
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 07/31/20 5:20 pm
I have the triples unlimited gage that davidp has
Posted By: htown Re: still trying to find joy - 07/31/20 11:01 pm
You could remove the center rod cap through the sump opening and check the clearance with Plastigauge. Won't tell you anything about the mains or the other rods but might give you an idea of the workmanship done on the rebuild. Make sure the middle cylinder is at bottom dead center. Use the existing rod nuts for the check then replace with new.
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 07/31/20 11:53 pm
I did check one of the mains, but I was also talking to the machinist at the time and he assured me it was uunnessarry.

I think I need to put it back together and see if there is any change.
Posted By: Tridentman Re: still trying to find joy - 08/01/20 2:39 am
Richrd---what was the OPRV like?
Any scoring, weak spring etc etc?
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 08/01/20 2:56 am
No scorin,g, spring measured 1.51 and "feels" very heavy.
Posted By: BigBars Re: still trying to find joy - 08/01/20 3:02 am
Originally Posted by Richrd
without going into details, the oprv is out,

.

Don't hold us in suspense ;-) , how did you get it out finally? was it when you removed the covers to get to the oil pump?

I'm asking because I might need to do this soon.
Posted By: Bodie Re: still trying to find joy - 08/01/20 5:01 am
Yeah i'm more than a little curious myself on this question ,

I think it's pretty safe to say we've already established the Book got it wrong as to which end of the oil filter element the spring actually fits ..
and the oil lines don't really present very much of an obstacle when trying to access the OPRV ,

So did you have to strip down the whole primary side just to get to the oil pressure relief valve ?
Posted By: DavidP Re: still trying to find joy - 08/01/20 5:29 am
Originally Posted by Semper Gumby
Richard,

When the OPRV was disassembled and the bits cleaned and washed, the spring may have been shimmed with a thin washer. 😉

Good luck.
An old VW trick, best reserved for old VWs.
Posted By: htown Re: still trying to find joy - 08/01/20 3:33 pm
Shimming the spring is supposed to raise the pressure that the valve opens. The stock valve without the shim is supposed to open at 90 psi. If 70 is the highest pressure he is seeing and his valve is up to spec then the valve is never opening and shimming it will have no effect.
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 08/01/20 5:24 pm
Are you saying pressure goes up ? when the valve opens?
Posted By: quinten Re: still trying to find joy - 08/01/20 6:42 pm
Originally Posted by Richrd
Are you saying pressure goes up ? when the valve opens?


no , if the pump , or oil passages the pump pressurizes ... do not push over 70 psi
... the oprv isnt being pushed open and used .
Posted By: htown Re: still trying to find joy - 08/01/20 8:26 pm
The oil pressure pushes against the spring tension to move the plunger. The plunger moves and a port is opened and some oil bleeds off into the crankcase until the pressure drops slightly and then the plunger returns and closes the port. The Triple oprv is set to open at 90 psi and the spring tension was designed with that in mind. It's main function is to prevent seals being blown when the oil is cold and thick and is intentionally set to stay closed at normal running pressure on a warm engine.
Your spring is within spec at least based on free length. You can also test spring height at a measured amount of compression if you have a means of applying a load. Lets assume yours is good for now.
If the spring was weak the valve would open at a lower pressure. You could add shims then to get it to open at the correct 90 psi. There is also the mistaken belief that adding shims in a worn engine will magically raise the pressure, But it won't because the running oil pressure is much lower than the 90 psi so the valve is never in play.
Since your engine never gets above 70 the valve is not ever opening if it meets stock specs. But checking it was up to spec was not a waste of time because you were able to confirm that it is likely not your problem and move on.
Posted By: Adam M. Re: still trying to find joy - 08/02/20 2:44 pm
So, what's left as a possible reason of a low oil pressure?
If possible I'd try a different pump, just to make sure it's not an inside pump problem, or try to check existing pump effectiveness.
Also is cylinder tightly screwed to the cases? Don't ask how I know about this problem.
Posted By: Tridentman Re: still trying to find joy - 08/02/20 5:38 pm
It looks as if you need to delve deeper into the oil pump and then engine.
However just before you do that I think it is worth double checking the oil pressure gage.
It may be new but in engineering there is this term called "infant mortality" where new things go wrong very early in their intended life.
So--beg, borrow or steal another gage---or buy one from Amazon/E Bay etc---they are not dear and it doesn't have to fit the gage bracket just to try it out.
I would hate to see you digging into the engine if the real problem might be a faulty pressure gage.
HTH
Posted By: quinten Re: still trying to find joy - 08/02/20 6:43 pm
Quote
So, what's left as a possible reason of a low oil pressure?

I hate to bring this up , but since you asked .
the oil filter cavity is pressurized .
If there is any porosity in the aluminum , the filter cavity can leak into the crankcase .
( I'm not aware that crankcase/filter cavity porosity is a particular problem on triples , just saying )
if youre at your wits-end it's something to put on the list .
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 08/03/20 12:47 am
the inside of the valve looks like the inside of a cylinder bore. no scratches that can be felt but marks or scuffs from the piston . But to be thorough, I ordered a new unit.

looking closely at the pump, the back surface was not perfectly flat in one area. So i lapped it smooth.

I have another gage on the shelf that I took off another bike. i will be checking the side of the issue.

Also when inpsecting the oil pump, the dowl pin had a burr. As Adam is hinting at, is it possible the pump was not tight against the gasket and if so, would that have caused it?

Waiting for the new oprv then will put it together and try again.

Attached picture DSC_0023.JPG
Attached picture DSC_0024.JPG
Attached picture DSC_0026.JPG
Attached picture DSC_0028.JPG
Posted By: DavidP Re: still trying to find joy - 08/03/20 5:49 am
Where are you getting the 90psi rating for the OPRV, and why does mine have 75 cast into the cap?
OK, I see 90psi in the General Data. So why does my cap say 75?
Posted By: Semper Gumby Re: still trying to find joy - 08/03/20 1:55 pm
Originally Posted by Richrd
(snip) Also when inpsecting the oil pump, the dowl pin had a burr. As Adam is hinting at, is it possible the pump was not tight against the gasket and if so, would that have caused it?

Waiting for the new oprv then will put it together and try again.

Yes crikey yes. The face of the pump must be tight against the case or it will not seal. Pressure for your mains will leak across to the intake/output of the return side of the pump or the feed hole of the pressure side of the pump. Both or either would be bad.
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 08/03/20 2:58 pm
"Crikey"? Is this officiall pilot talk?
Posted By: Semper Gumby Re: still trying to find joy - 08/03/20 3:11 pm
“Penfold shush”
Posted By: quinten Re: still trying to find joy - 08/03/20 9:58 pm
]
[Linked Image from cdn.shopify.com] op
Posted By: DavidP Re: still trying to find joy - 08/04/20 1:03 am
That's odd, my '72 parts book calls for 71-2369 OPRV. Not sure what's in there, it does have the coarse screen though.
Now I see that my '74 parts book has the 70-6595. It also shows the individual parts, which the '72 book does not.
Posted By: DavidP Re: still trying to find joy - 08/06/20 2:42 am
Originally Posted by Bodie
No there isn't a centre stand fitted ,
I guess it's possible that a centre stand could pose a problem ?
Definitely in the way when deployed. I'll check, but it appears as if the center stand spring will be in the way even with the stand retracted. As mentioned, the metal strap under the oil lines would also need to be removed.
Maybe spending money for a new OPRV will give me the urge to try again. I suppose I need to drain the oil first.
Posted By: DMadigan Re: still trying to find joy - 08/06/20 3:05 pm
71-2369 is the BSA number. 70-6595 is the Triumph.
The OPRV is after the pump so unless the pump and anti-drain valve are leaking badly there should be little oil coming out when the OPRV is removed.
Posted By: Richrd did I make it worse? - 08/08/20 7:29 pm
I really wonder if the oil pump was tight to the gasket.

but anyway, start it up and hits 65 pounds. until I blip the throttle then it drops 3 pounds. every time I blip the throttle it drops another 2 to 3 pounds down to 40. checked the oil line to the gage. its clear.

puzzle number 2 is why doesnt the needle go up when I rev the motor.

motor sounds good, cant believe it has anything to do with crank.

I've been trying to figure out how to plumb in another gauge to check, or could it be the pump?

Help me mister wizard.
Posted By: DMadigan Re: did I make it worse? - 08/08/20 7:50 pm
Where exactly is the line to the gauge attached?
Have you replaced the hoses from tank to engine? If the inner liner detaches it can obstruct the flow.. Same if the hose is too soft. Pump vacuum can collapse the hose.
Posted By: Tridentman Re: did I make it worse? - 08/08/20 11:09 pm
Certainly very strange symptoms.
In addition to Daves suggestions I would certainly try another gage before anything else.
Lets be sure that the symptoms are real before we try to identify the cause(s).
Posted By: Richrd Re: did I make it worse? - 08/09/20 12:41 am
gauge is conected to one of the ports on the front of the case as per instructions.

hoses were in the boxes when i got the bike, but well worth looking at.
Posted By: NickL Re: did I make it worse? - 08/09/20 2:40 am
Sounds like the piston is sticking, did you strip the valve and clean it?
Posted By: Richrd Re: did I make it worse? - 08/10/20 12:11 am
made up another gauge. started on 55 pounds, dips 3 pounds when I rev the engine. so it's not the gauge.

my number one question is why does the pressure not increase with the revs. if for some reason I'm not getting the oil to the pump,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I'm going to try different hose.
Posted By: DavidP Re: still trying to find joy - 08/10/20 4:31 am
Originally Posted by Bodie
No there isn't a centre stand fitted ,
That was one of the first modifications I did years ago after i found it badly reduced the ground clearance when cornering .
There's nothing been cut or ground down on the socket i use ; it's just an old King Dick brand i bought back in the 70's .

Here's a slightly longer shot i just took showing the centre stand fixing lugs ,
I guess it's possible that a centre stand could pose a problem ? , But i'm not about to fit my one back on just to find out ? .
I'm guessing there's around 15 to 20mm of clearance between the bottom frame tube & the socket extension , I'd have thought that would be a long way clear of the centre stand if it were actually fitted .

(Has anyone else got a question ? i'm really starting to get the hang of all this slithering and taking pictures grin )
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
It appears that we are looking at a Rocket Three frame. There is no straight shot to the OPRV on a T150! The frame narrows before the center stand mount. I can't even get the bare socket into that space, much less one attached to an extension.
Even the proper service tool requires removing both oil lines on a T150.
Posted By: Semper Gumby Re: still trying to find joy - 08/11/20 8:10 pm
Rich - see your PM....

Can somebody post up a R3/T150 oil system schematic please? I have an idea....
Posted By: quinten Re: still trying to find joy - 08/11/20 8:25 pm
Originally Posted by Semper Gumby
Rich - see your PM....

Can somebody post up a R3/T150 oil system schematic please? I have an idea....

is t160 close enough ?
[Linked Image from triumph-spares.co.uk]
[Linked Image from triumphrat.net]
Posted By: Semper Gumby Re: still trying to find joy - 08/11/20 8:32 pm
Yes Thank you.

Ah Don Roe and David Patterson have clued me in to what is going on.

The feed line is not big enough when cold. The T160 has a bigger feed line. The oil pump is not being supplied with oil fast enough when cold.

So congrats you fixed the oil pressure problem. clap

Now you are seeing a design feature that was fixed in the T160.

For me Rich when I see this to me it means I'm using too much throttle too soon and the engine is not warmed up and I need to wait for the oil to come up to operating temperature. Now I want an oil temperature probe on the oil tank!
Posted By: Adam M. Re: still trying to find joy - 08/11/20 9:01 pm
Really baffled by this and thinking about it often.
What about a situation with an oil line delivering oil to the pump is partially obstructed or delaminated?
In this case when oil is delivered much slower than being sucked up from the system pressure could collapse during engine revving I think.
Posted By: Semper Gumby Re: still trying to find joy - 08/11/20 9:15 pm
Waiting for the intelligent minds to wake up and read this....see if we are on the right track.

Intelligent minds from the past and present: As a rule when John Healy speaks...pay attention!

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=236206
Posted By: htown Re: still trying to find joy - 08/12/20 3:08 am
Here's my experience with Trident oil pressures which I've gathered is fairly typical.
New to me bike with no history. Installed an oil pressure gauge and started to ride
The before:
Start the bike and cold pressure is over 100 psi, ride it for a mile or two and pressure drops to about 60 psi, ride for about 10 miles and get engine up to temp and drops to consistent 40 psi at 4000 rpm and 10 psi at idle, oil light is flickering at idle. Oil pressure responds to revving the engine about 10 psi/1000 rpm.
At this point I tore the engine down, crank had ridges and bearings were worn. Had crank ground and replaced bearings, along with a NOS oil pump and new OPRV. Note: I did not increase the size of the oil feed to t160 spec.
The after:
Start bike and cold pressure is over 100 psi, stays at over 100 psi for the first ten miles or so then drops into the 80 to 90 range at 4000 rpm. Idle is around 35 psi. On a really warm day may drop in the 70 psi range and 30 idle.
Two things about your bike that seem strange is the low initial cold oil pressure and the fact that revving the engine has no effect. Even on an engine with worn bearing clearances you should see higher cold pressures and a response to revving. To me this suggest that the problem is upstream from the pump in the supply. There is no anti-sump valve in the feed line? I would replace the hoses as matter of course.
IMHO enlarging the feed to t160 spec might be a good idea but the t150 spec works fine for me and tons of others and I don't think I would tear an engine down just to do it. Also, I can't see cold oil somehow creating an "air gap" or loss of prime unless your riding at -50 or something.
Posted By: DMadigan Re: still trying to find joy - 08/12/20 3:34 am
Semper, my racer has a Virago chain drive that spins the pump about 20% faster with the original R3 5/16" inlet pipe. I never had a problem with oil starvation and I run 20W/50 oil.
Posted By: DavidP Re: still trying to find joy - 08/12/20 6:01 am
Mine only hits 85psi on cold start, but it stays there regardless of RPM until the oil warms a bit. After about ten miles pressure is at 60psi at 4-5000 RPM. Once I get home the pressure at idle is a little over 10psi, used to light the light until I replaced the switch. Now it no longer lights at hot idle. Oil temperature is usually 180 degrees at this point.
htown: yes there is an anti-drain valve. It lives in the bottom of the case where the oil inlet goes in.
I just received a new OPRV. Oddly enough the screen on the Harris valve is the same fine screen found on the twins. Next oil change I'll remove the oil lines and see if I can manage to get a socket on the old one to change it.
Richrd: You might benefit from replacing the feed line to the engine. As mentioned by others, old lines can partially collapse or shed internally.
Posted By: Semper Gumby Re: still trying to find joy - 08/12/20 7:05 am
Originally Posted by DMadigan
Semper, my racer has a Virago chain drive that spins the pump about 20% faster with the original R3 5/16" inlet pipe. I never had a problem with oil starvation and I run 20W/50 oil.

Yep. I think a new feed hose is going in. Makes sense. I can change that one thing easy and see if it makes a difference. Thanks.
Posted By: htown Re: still trying to find joy - 08/12/20 3:29 pm
I'm aware of the internal check ball, those work quite well because the full output of the pump pushes the ball off the seat. What I was referring to is the aftermarket anti-sump valve that people install in the feed line between the tank and engine. Those have a history of failing because you are relying on the suction of the pump to move the valve and if you lose prime they may not open. There are lots of documented cases of blown engines due to those. However, some people run them with no problem. Are you feeling lucky? Just checking that Richard didn't have one of these.
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 08/12/20 11:31 pm
Rich would never use a che k valve in an oil line!
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 08/13/20 12:41 am
new feed hose, started on lift. start up 60 quickly dropped to 40. blip drops it to 38, then comes back to 40.


roll it out and ride 4 miles around town in 2nd and 3rd gear 2500 to 3000 rpms. pressure sits at 35.

back home pressure at idle 25, blipping throttle RISES to 30 then settles back to 25.

oil temp in tank 125 degrees radiator fins 153

I think I'll take it down the road and see it pressur will hold at 20 - 30. last time i tried it did not.

So really not gaining anything. whwen do I go looking for another pump?
Posted By: Adam M. Re: still trying to find joy - 08/13/20 3:57 pm
Perhaps It would be possible to borrow different pump?
Posted By: Tridentman Re: still trying to find joy - 08/14/20 12:50 am
Richrd must be losing patience over this problem.
Just reading the last few posts I realized that I had lost track of the various happenings on this thread.
So I went back to the beginning and noted the significant developments.
It goes something like this:
a) An incident happened which took out the crank shells.
b) The crank big end and main journals were ground and new shells fitted.
c) At start it gave 70 psi then after a few miles this went down to 40 and then 30.
d) Increasing the revs do not increase the pressure.
e) The OPRV was stripped and examined and found to be OK.
f) Another gage was tried in case the original gage was faulty. The second gage broadly agreed with the first gage.
g) The back of the oil pump was lapped smooth.
h) The pump was tightened back tio the mating surface.
i) It was suggested that the oil feed pipe at the standard T150 5/16" is under sized compared with the later T160 3/8".
j) A new oil feed hose was fitted. At start up it gave 60 psi which then went down to 40. With a blip of the throttle it went down to 30 and then back up to 40. At 2500/3000 rpm the pressure was 35 with idle at 25. With the throttle blipped it went to 30 and then back down to 25.

Having gone through all the above the original problem remains.

What might the problem be?
Some thoughts:
a) What was the problem that "took out" the crank shells? Are we sure we know the cause(s)? Is there debris still lying around in the engine?
b) The oil feed size can be disregarded IMHO. While it is desirable to enlarge the inlet to 3/8" as Triumph did on the later T160s it is not essential to do so. There are literally thousands of T150s running around quite satisfactorily with the 5/16" oil feed pipe size.
c) The OPRV and oil pump seem to have passed inspection so at this stage at least we should I guess rule them out of suspicion.
d) The very strange reduction of pressure with increase in revs (assuming that the pump and OPRV are working OK) points to a supply side restriction causing cavitation within the pump. The fact that the latest test showed an increase in pressure with an increase in revs STARTING AT IDLE is IMHO very significant as cavitation generally starts and gets worse at higher revs-- so the expected behavior of increased pressure with increased revs starting at low revs but not at higher revs is a pointer towards cavitation.
It has been known for hoses to delaminate but this has been ruled out by replacing the oil feed hose. However looking at the supply side of the pump the following questions come to mind:
a) Is the oil tank clean?
b) Is the oil tank oil filter clean?
c) Are there any obstructions within the oil pump on the inlet side?

That is about as far as my analysis takes me.
However answers to the questions posed might help us to move forwards and solve the problem.
HTH
Posted By: Semper Gumby Re: still trying to find joy - 08/14/20 1:18 am
If it matters I'm using heavy duty transmission oil cooler hose rated for lots of pressure for the feed line.
In either case I will still be gentile till the engine warms up.

And Richard I know you have looked but I would inspect the OPRV again..
If there is any trash in the system the OPRV comes after the pump of course but before the filter (why?)

I beginning to think any old BSA/Triumph I come in contact with must have it oil bag goto a radiator shop. Every time i get into one there is sludge and rust in the damn things. And that includes OIF's.
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 08/14/20 2:45 am
Oil tank was boiled at the radiator shop. Just sop here
After first incident engine was stripped and scrubbed in the kitchen sink and flushed with a case of spray cleaner tile spotless.

Checked oil tank filter when i changed hose

Wheni get back from Georgia I'm going to try a different pump
Posted By: DMadigan Re: still trying to find joy - 08/14/20 4:19 am
Reading back you never actually checked the shell clearance, just took the mechanic's word. Were the shells marked -XXX or just the box? Possible the wrong shells were put in the box. You said that you were going to check a main but did but did not because the machinist thought it unnecessary.
Going through the journal bearing calculations, given oil inlet temp 125F, SAE50, 1000 RPM, 38 PSI, one bearing would have to be about 0.004" clearance with the rest at 0.0015" to balance the oil flow required with the pump output. Alternatively, all the bearings would have to be about 0.0023" clearance to balance.
Posted By: Tridentman Re: still trying to find joy - 08/14/20 1:43 pm
Thanks for answering my questions, Richrd.
Seems to me the only thing still in question is the oil pump.
Suggest that you remove it and strip it down--looking carefully for any obstruction, scoring etc etc.
May be worth taking photos of the dismantling step by step and posting them here?
HTH
Posted By: Paul Sammut Re: still trying to find joy - 08/14/20 2:30 pm
I have been discussing this problem with Rich for weeks and share his pain. One possibility which has not been mentioned, I believe, is the oil passageway in the case into which the oil pressure sensor is screwed. If there was debris in that channel just upstream of the sensor, could this manifest the symptoms his bike shows? I remember cleaning out my T160 cases as thoroughly as I could with pipe-cleaners and wires but never felt convinced I got them pristine.
Paul.
Posted By: htown Re: still trying to find joy - 08/14/20 3:42 pm
I'd drop the center rod bearing through the sump plate and plastigauge it. As mention maybe bearings were mis-marked.
Posted By: Dick Page Re: still trying to find joy - 08/14/20 8:26 pm
I might have set it on fire by now
Posted By: Adam M. Re: still trying to find joy - 08/14/20 10:23 pm
I did, but it didn't help much. Just more work and money spent smile
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 08/15/20 12:54 am
Paul has graciously offered to install a new pump while I'm out east.

Don't k ow if that's a good idea or not.
Posted By: Semper Gumby Re: still trying to find joy - 08/16/20 4:22 pm
Originally Posted by Dick Page
I might have set it on fire by now

...from a distance with an Anti-Aircraft Gun.

That is the way of it. wink
Posted By: Stuart Kirk Re: still trying to find joy - 08/19/20 9:21 pm
Originally Posted by Tridentman
The.......reduction of pressure with increase in revs ......points to a supply side restriction causing cavitation within the pump.
a) Is the oil tank clean?
b) Is the oil tank oil filter clean?
c) Are there any obstructions within the oil pump on the inlet side?
I agree 100% with these suggestions. Most any pressure lubed engine should show OP that rises with revs, especially when cold. If cold OP doesn't rise with revs, there is likely a supply problem. I just got done repairing an '63 Alvis automobile with low OP. It was a fresh engine in a stalled out restoration. An internal galley plug had been left out and even IT had rising cold OP when revved. It rose to 20psi, consistently! (but showed 70 cold once the plug was in place)

Anyway, I would be pulling the tank and any feed fittings. The tank has to be cleaned out with petroleum based solvent or gasoline, focusing like a laser on any sludgy muck laying in the bottom. Who knows, maybe someone poured a bottle of motor honey or STP in there to help out the OP, and that is what is plugging the lines.

Next, I would put on my Inspector Clouseau hat and have a close look at any feed line fittings at the tank ie: banjos, banjo bolts, strainer screens, anything that could reduce flow. Make sure there are no half drilled holes or blobs of braze or anything else blocking things up. I run drills through all the holes if possible and chamfer the end ID of any tubes or fittings I find. On less simple fittings and drillways, I even figure out where the fluids have to flow and then run fluid through them to satisfy myself that it in fact does what I think it should. Blow everything out with compressed air. Consider that Triumph was going through some very low morale around the time our bikes were built (I've got a survivor '73 T150V by the VIN that better matches the "74 parts book.) so all sorts of quality problems are possible. Maybe someone neglected to drill a hole somewhere in a feed fitting. I hope this helps.
Posted By: Cyborg Re: still trying to find joy - 08/20/20 2:44 pm
I would be studying that oil flow diagram and thinking about where air can get sucked into the intake side. Aerated oil and shell bearings don’t mix.
It might account for both that weird drop in pressure and the knackered bearings. Small leak that only passes air when intake pressure drops to a certain point? Stranger things have happened... but just a guess. If the pressure drops with the blip of the throttle, then that suggests to me that “if” there is air getting in, it’s close to the pump or the pump itself.


I’ll add the caveat..... I know nothing about triples or their pumps.
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 08/28/20 7:18 pm
just wondering out loud here,,,

does the pump impart any vaccumm or syphoning on the feed hose?

the oil drains very slowly to the pump under gravity. the strainer, fittings and passages are all clear. I even fitted a larger 3/8 inch hose.

I will be installing a different pump this weekend
Posted By: Stuart Kirk Re: still trying to find joy - 08/28/20 9:27 pm
Originally Posted by Richrd
does the pump impart any vaccumm or syphoning on the feed hose?
Yes. The pump will create a vacuum in the feed line which helps draw oil from the tank, but the vacuum will be reduced when there is insufficient oil in the pump gears themselves. That is why a relatively unimpeded supply is so important. The head pressure from the tank being higher than the pump helps too.

Originally Posted by Richrd
the oil drains very slowly to the pump under gravity. the strainer, fittings and passages are all clear. I even fitted a larger 3/8 inch hose.
This all sounds promising, and I apologize for belaboring the point, but I still must ask if you have physically removed those fittings and inspected them closely, and if you have cleaned out the oil tank of all sludgy muck that may be in the bottom of it. This is so vitally important in a case like yours. I would also run it and do an OP check when I was satisfied that all lines and fittings were nice and clear. BTW, are you using a 20-50 oil?

Originally Posted by Richrd
I will be installing a different pump this weekend
If you do go ahead and install a new pump, everything mentioned above still applies but I just thought of another possibility. On my '73('74?) T150V, the oil pump drive gear is not keyed to the taper shaft. There is no key slot for any woodruff key! So, any slipping on that taper would tend to loosen the thin nut that holds the gear onto the pump shaft. This could slow the pump down, or even make it not turn at all. It is a really sketchy setup IMO but that's how mine is. Loctite, the locktab and careful tightening are all important. When I had the pump out to do my clutch some time back, that nut was NOT very tight and the threads on the pump shaft were quite rough, making proper tightening harder to judge. I spent quite some time cleaning up those threads so the nut would thread on easily by hand. That shaft is hardened so a diamond file works best. Harbor freight here in Cali has them pretty cheap. Not sure about your area, Grizzly or Northern maybe. Best of luck. Let us know how it turns out.
Posted By: Tridentman Re: still trying to find joy - 08/28/20 11:37 pm
I am on vacation so don’t have my technical info, photos, bikes etc with me to check it out but——-
Just as a very way out suggestion ——
Have you got the oil pipe connections to the engine the wrong way around?
I know it sounds unlikely— but the symptoms are so strange that perhaps the cause is strange too.
HTH
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 08/29/20 2:45 pm
TM, it's kinda hard to put a 5/16 hose on a 3/8 pipe. and even if it was possible, then you would have no oil pressure at all.
Posted By: Tridentman Re: still trying to find joy - 08/29/20 5:45 pm
Richrd—- it is a common mod to increase the oil supply line to 3/8”.
In this case you can inadvertently put the oil pipes onto the engine the wrong way round.
Don’t know what would happen if you did— I guess the pump would suck the oil from the cooler line and keep it going at pressure for a little while and then the oil supply would falter and the pressure reduce.
But it doesn’t sound as if that is your problem anyway.
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 09/03/20 12:36 am
Guess what!!!! different oil pump and,,,, it's a couple pounds better.

Started at 60 -65 and was down to 45 by the time I was out the driveway.

stayed there for about 15 miles in 4th and 5th at around 4000 rpm.

then dropped to 30 - 35

Ran total of 22 miles with it dropping to 20 -25 at idle and climbing back to 32 at speed.

I think I'm just going to do short rides on it and see what happens. then when I get bored I'll pull it back apart.

Only possibilities I see are either the machinist screwed up the journals or the shells are oversize. if need I do have another crank the measures out to good stock specs.
Posted By: Tridentman Re: still trying to find joy - 09/03/20 2:42 am
At least we now have a situation where the oil pressure increases rather than decreases as the engine revs increase.
So I guess that is progress of sorts.
From these latest results the possibilities would seem to be:
a) The oil pump is giving very poor output---this is unlikely as it is the second pump and the chances of them both being below par are low.
b) The OPRV is behaving strangely and blowing off at a very low pressure.
c) There is a very large clearance between bearings and crankshaft as you noted.
I think that I would mod the OPRV so that it cannot open and see what happens to the oil pressure with increasing revs and the engine getting warm. A bit of a long shot but worth doing at this juncture IMHO.
HTH
Posted By: DMadigan Re: still trying to find joy - 09/03/20 3:40 am
If you are getting 20-25 PSI at idle with an engine at normal temperature then the shells are not oversize. Your problem is elsewhere.
Did you replace the steel ball with a plastic one in the anti-drain valve? Have you run a rod through the oil galleys from filter to the bolts on the case front to check for blockage? You do have the spring in the oil filter cap?
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 09/03/20 1:27 pm
I did not replace the steel ball.

I'm sure I cleaned the oil galleys when I had the cases in the kitchen sink but I will check again.

yes the spring is in the filter cap.

maybe I do need to try shimming the oprv.
Posted By: kommando Re: still trying to find joy - 09/03/20 1:37 pm
Just block the OPRV from opening or block the drain route from the valve and see what the pressures come back with, having it blocked for a short period is not going to harm anything and the pressure readings will provide more info than trying to work out at what pressure it opened.
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 09/13/20 2:37 am
Got the fancy triumph tool for removing the oprv. Guess what, it doesn't work!
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 09/14/20 6:41 pm
Got it apart again. Thinking to try shimming the orb. What have I got to lose

Any guidance on how thick to shim.


Also on the clutch, while it is out. I have the triple unlimited bearing. Is there anything to make lever pull lighter?
Posted By: htown Re: still trying to find joy - 09/15/20 1:13 am
Advice on a Norton is to shim it until it just barely rattles when shaken. Applicable to a Triple?
Posted By: kommando Re: still trying to find joy - 09/15/20 10:01 am
Extra shimming will not fix a ball that is not sealing properly on the valve seat ie leaking at all pressures, so if shimming makes no difference to the pressures block the over pressure dump route.
Posted By: DMadigan Re: still trying to find joy - 09/15/20 3:31 pm
A '74 has a piston OPRV so the piston has to rise to the bleed holes to regulate the pressure. You measured the OPRV spring as 1.51", whereas the stock spring is 1375". It sound as though you have a non-stock spring.
The stock spring force at 1.1875" is 8lb, any way to check that?
You said that you were replacing the OPRV, did you do that?
You also mentioned that it is difficult to put a 5/16" hose on a 3/8" pipe (oil feed line). You had oil lines "in the box" and mentioned replacing them, did you? Why do you have a 5/16" feed line if you have a 3/8" feed pipe?
The return line is 7/16" so not possible to mix them up.
You mentioned that the flow through the feed line when pulled off the feed pipe was very slow. Did you find out why? The only filter is the mesh in the tank.
Rather than shimming, to be sure the problem is not the OPRV, put a piece of bar stock in place of the spring to keep the piston from moving.
Posted By: Stuart Kirk Re: still trying to find joy - 09/15/20 8:29 pm
Originally Posted by Richrd
Also on the clutch, while it is out............Is there anything to make lever pull lighter?
The two final things that made my '73 T150V (that better matches the '74 parts book) clutch lever pull much lighter was first, a Venhill cable. This was after trying a new Barnett one which had too much flex in the casing. Second was a new fixed ball ramp ie the one pinned into the case. The old one had dents worn in it just where the pressure gets high. On my bike, these dents acted more like detent notches holding the release arm from rotating any further. Squeezing the clutch lever would just stretch/compress the cable once the balls got to those dents. I understand that fitting slightly bigger ball bearings can help with this problem too but I haven't tried it so I can't really comment..

All this was done after replacing the clutch disc but, due to the non linear force curve of the Trident's diaphragm spring, a worn clutch disc will cause heavy lever pull also. Did you replace the clutch disc when you were in there last time?
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 09/16/20 2:30 am
I did not replace the valve because the "new" valve was much worse than the one I had.

I aslo wonder about the spring,,,,

I have one 5/16 pipe and one 3/8 pipe. hoses replaced. hoses are clear as is the tank screen. as an experiment I ran a 3/8 hose to the screen to see if it would flow any faster. what I have is normal for 20/50 thru a rubber hose which is why I questioned about whether the pump imparts a vaccuum to the line. which led to reply in post #821543.

I intended to block the piston. but then I have to put it together to start it, then take the primary all apart to remove the block. then back together again. My thinking was to try the shim then if theres any improvement I would just leave it.

trying to think of a way to test spring rate. any ideas?
Posted By: DMadigan Re: still trying to find joy - 09/16/20 3:19 am
As mentioned, the manual gives the stock spring as 1.375" long, yours is 1.51" so possibly not stock. The manual gives a load of 8lb at 1-3/16" and a rate of 42.3 lb (presumably per inch).
How did you get a 3/8" return pipe? I have a NG T150V case and it has a 7/16" return pipe.
You should be able to remove the OPRV with the engine assembled. Get a 1" socket and extension and try fitting it before you put the clutch housing back on. See what length extension works best.
I tool the OPRV from the NG case apart.The spring measures 1.480" and the wire is 0.065" diameter.
The manual that I have (UK only) does not show turn signals so pre-71.
Posted By: DavidP Re: still trying to find joy - 09/16/20 5:11 am
Originally Posted by DMadigan
You should be able to remove the OPRV with the engine assembled.
You should, perhaps. But I haven't been able to find the correct socket to even get it into that space. Maybe with both oil lines removed?
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 09/16/20 12:46 pm
I have over two days of trying to remove the valve wiithout stripping the primary including butchering sockets on the lathe. it cannot be done on this bike.
Posted By: DMadigan Re: still trying to find joy - 09/16/20 4:28 pm
Most sockets have a lead in chamfer. Because the hex is very thin it has to be machined off. I have a deep well socket modified to remove the OPRV. I can send it out to you if you wish.
Your OPRV does have the coarse mesh screen, yes?
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
Posted By: DavidP Re: still trying to find joy - 09/16/20 4:53 pm
Originally Posted by DMadigan
Your OPRV does have the coarse mesh screen, yes?
The one that's in there now has the coarse screen. Oddly the new one from Harris has a fine screen. It was sold as being for T150. I presume that Harris puts different springs in the same body for different models.
Posted By: Stuart Kirk Re: still trying to find joy - 09/17/20 8:34 pm
Originally Posted by Richrd
trying to think of a way to test spring rate. any ideas?

Here's a fairly easy way. The digital scale is a relatively cheap 75lb one. You need a drill press to compress the spring.. The old valve in the chuck isn't necessary but makes measuring easier. This is a clutch spring I'm measuring just for illustration purposes. It measures out to 8lb 2.8oz at 1.5".

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
Posted By: htown Re: still trying to find joy - 09/17/20 9:13 pm
Valve spring compression tester?
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 09/18/20 1:57 pm
I have the socket, but as the pic shows it does not sit flush. But if I did get it off how would I put it back. If I try to install with the socket it wants to cross thread and there's no way to get my fingers there with the clutch case on.

I going to block the piston and try to find a scale for the spring

Attached picture 20200918_084542.jpg
Attached picture 20200918_084450.jpg
Attached picture 20200918_084510.jpg
Posted By: quinten Re: still trying to find joy - 09/18/20 3:11 pm
a few wraps of electric tape can control the amount of flex
[Linked Image from s8580.pcdn.co]
Posted By: DMadigan Re: still trying to find joy - 09/18/20 6:19 pm
The oil pipes are in the way of a box wrench from the bottom. With the clutch housing removed a box wrench could be used.
The seal housing flange is 2.5" diameter (the snout that actually holds the seal, not the part that the screws go through).
Distance from center of an 18 tooth sprocket to the midpoint of the side plate is 1.772" so there is 0.522" from the midpoint to the seal holder. I think any chain will clear that.
The problem with hitting the seal holder usually is the width of the chain, some have very thick side plates.
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 09/18/20 6:58 pm
Ok gang, I checked the spring rate. Got 12 pounds at 1 3/16. Book calls for 8.

This bitch just laffs at every time we have an idea.
Posted By: koan58 Re: still trying to find joy - 09/18/20 9:42 pm
That doesn’t mean anything.
To get a spring rate you need the pressures at 2 spring heights.
Then you can calculate:

(P1 – P2) / (H1-H2) = spring rate
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 09/22/20 2:01 pm
I put a third pump in just for fun. Took the first two apart and could no signs of wear, measuring the gears and pockets. My next step will be making sure the gear is not spinning on the taper, but I don't see how it could with the d shape tab washer.
Posted By: Richrd Re: still trying to find joy - 09/30/20 12:47 am
for sale, 74 t150 runs great, new motor.

checked all of the above, then blew air thru the front oil galley passeages and ran the gage to the other galley.

here,s a video of the start up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn7FazZm8OE&feature=youtu.be

the pressure starts dropping at about the 3:50 mark.

then went for a ten mile ride. the first five miles the needle held at 38. then When I stopped to turn around it dropped to 25 at idle then came back up to 35 / 38 at 4000 rpms. in the driveway it idled at about 15 at climbed to 30 when reved.

I am declaring defeat till winter when I will tear it down to measure the crank.
Posted By: Adam M. Re: still trying to find joy - 09/30/20 1:25 am
I'm afraid nothing else left to do.
Good luck during next tear down.
© Britbike forum