Britbike forum
Posted By: Psychopasta Barn Find Beeza - 08/22/19 2:49 pm
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I picked up this A65L last weekend. It is a 1967 model and has sat for 20 years in a neighbor's garage. All I've done is give it a good wash and a visual inspection. The engine turns over on the kickstart, but I have not attempted anything on it yet.

I'm curious about the front fork. The PO said something about Betor forks, but didn't know much (anything) about them. Does anyone know about them?

Also, if the eagle-eyed notice anything about the bike, I'd be grateful for any/all comments. Although I'm familiar with bikes from the 80s on, I know nothing about BSAs of this period.
Posted By: kommando Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/22/19 3:14 pm
Stay away from jet washing old bikes in water in future, they are not sealed very well so the water is now lurking inside. An oily rag would be better, cleans just as well and leaves a protective layer. For now leave it out in the hot sun so it dries off, you may need to remove some covers to get all the water out.

Your front wheel is BSA but the fork legs and triple tree are from something else
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/22/19 3:26 pm
Mazzochi?

Engine is 70 or later, Although looking at the barrel it could even be 69' (later barrels have bigger studs with 12pt nut mounting, the barrels are cutaway on the bottom fin to accomodate this.... pre 90 dont)
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/22/19 10:06 pm
TT100s , decent forks, the good 8" single leading shoe front brake , a well worn saddle , 2 into one pipes and later concentrics with a twin pull maybe Tomasellii twistgrip ( would have been monos in 67). As Allan says a 70 or 71 motor with the early no fins rocker cover , head must be 70 or earlier , twin carbs no tach drive , possibly A65 T with a lightning head Someone enjoyed this bike. All good mods , could be a fun bike to ride. The shocks look like early Jap, change them .
Posted By: Danam Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/23/19 3:48 am
wow, that's a barn find?? It's way better than mine! Good one!
Posted By: Adam M. Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/23/19 4:13 pm
+1 for the fun looking and riding bike, Betor forks were more advance and better working than 67 originals ( really crude ), carbs will be in need of cleaning, charging system and electric loom has to be checked, compression is probably low, but nothing good trashing on the road wouldn't cure. Seat has to be rebuild with a new foam and probably cover.
What are your plans for a bike ?
Posted By: Lannis Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/23/19 4:37 pm
Originally Posted by Psychopasta
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I picked up this A65L last weekend. It is a 1967 model and has sat for 20 years in a neighbor's garage. All I've done is give it a good wash and a visual inspection. The engine turns over on the kickstart, but I have not attempted anything on it yet.

I'm curious about the front fork. The PO said something about Betor forks, but didn't know much (anything) about them. Does anyone know about them?

Also, if the eagle-eyed notice anything about the bike, I'd be grateful for any/all comments. Although I'm familiar with bikes from the 80s on, I know nothing about BSAs of this period.


It's definitely a "Bitsa"; the forks, rocker cover, etc show that, so that sort of frees you up to do what you like with it. I'd make a close-to-stock rider out of it if it were mine. Get the frame and engine numbers so you know what parts books to order from.

If it were sitting in my garage right now, I'd take the primary cover and outer timing cover off and look and see what's in there. I'd do a leak-down check on the cylinders, adjust the valves, I'd pull the sump plate and do a crank end-play check, and would pull the oil tank and get the 20 years worth of sludge out of it.

If the crank isn't loose, the cylinders have reasonable compression, and the chains and such look good, I'd fill it up with oil and gas and enjoy it; otherwise, fix what's worn and go from there.

Lannis
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/24/19 1:52 am
Hey Lannis, are you the same Lannis who posts on WildGuzzi?
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/24/19 1:58 am
Thanks everyone!

My plans are pretty close to what Lannis said. I need to get the wheels off and look at the brakes, as I know nothing about drums anymore. I'll also pull the forks, which I believe are Betor, and just see what they are. I'm imagining at the least they'll need new seals and oil, but I just have no idea what I'll find. It also needs speedo, horn, headlamp...all the boring stuff.

I'm looking at a fairly minimal restoration, but you know how it goes once you start poking and prodding.

- Pasta
Posted By: Mark Z Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/24/19 2:23 am
I'm surprised no one has brought up the old sludge trap bugaboo. Ok, there's a sludge trap in the crankshaft. If the bike was run a lot with dirty oil, and/or stored for a long period of time with dirty oil in it, particularly in a cold damp environment, the sludge trap could be full of sludge. The sludge trap runs through the crankpins, so if it is clogged, oil will not reach the big end bearings.

What you find when you remove the sump plate from the bottom of the crankcase will be an indication of how the bike was maintained. If it looks pretty good, you may decide to take a chance and run it as is. Unfortunately, clearing the sludge trap requires a complete engine tear-down.

I agree this looks like a fun project. The front forks are a nice upgrade, performance-wise; the originals leave a lot to be desired. In addition to what's already been said, the rocker cover is pre-'67, and the fuel tank is post-'67.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/24/19 3:28 am
Thanks Mark. Seems to me that a sludge trap that needs the engine to be torn down to get at defeats the point of a sludge trap. You'd ideally be able to clean it without the engine teardown. But what do I know?

I'm getting used to the idea that the engine may need to be torn down anyway, but I would like to get her running first so I at least know what sounds she makes.
Posted By: Nick H Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/24/19 1:53 pm
I tore down a perfectly fine Triumph to check the sludge trap only to find it perfectly clean and no witness marks on the crank to indicate that it had ever been touched. Peace of mind.
Someone commented to me that in here in the US we use bikes recreationally unlike in Britain where they are more commonly the primary transportation. Helps to know some history of the bike but if not, I wouldn't take chances.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/24/19 2:12 pm
Hey Nick, thanks for that. I'm British originally, now in the good ol'US and you're right about bikes being used as transport, but only bikes of this vintage. Things like a Lightning would definitely have been working beasts, and not garage queens dripping in chrome :-)
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/24/19 2:19 pm
Originally Posted by gavin eisler
TT100s , decent forks, the good 8" single leading shoe front brake , a well worn saddle , 2 into one pipes and later concentrics with a twin pull maybe Tomasellii twistgrip ( would have been monos in 67). As Allan says a 70 or 71 motor with the early no fins rocker cover , head must be 70 or earlier , twin carbs no tach drive , possibly A65 T with a lightning head Someone enjoyed this bike. All good mods , could be a fun bike to ride. The shocks look like early Jap, change them .


Thanks Gavin, and Allan.

The engine number pulls up as 67, so I'm assuming that this engine has been heavily modded. Judging from the looks of the bike, and the fact that it has no instruments, the choke cables are gone etc, I think its primary use was not on the road but flattracking and general hooning around on.
Posted By: kommando Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/24/19 2:27 pm
As its a Y it may be one of those 69's with a 67 number and the engine is not heavily modded.

Read this thread

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=523437&page=29

Note there are Y bikes and -Y bikes and not all are the same.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/24/19 5:43 pm
Certain elements of the motor are certainly 1970, eg the top entry clutch cable and what looks like bi hex barrel flange nuts on 3/8" studs. Read the thread kommando linked.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/24/19 6:19 pm
Indeed! Thank you very much guys, lots of reading and learning ahead of me.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/25/19 6:47 pm
I have a question on compression testing. The engine turns over on the kickstart, but does not run yet. Should I put some oil in the top of the cylinders to help seal the bores when I test the engine compression?
Posted By: Nick H Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/25/19 6:51 pm
It will most likely give a higher reading than without the oil but most people say cold compressions tests are worth much.
Posted By: Nick H Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/25/19 6:51 pm
It will most likely give a higher reading than without the oil but most people say cold compressions tests aren't worth much.
Posted By: Lannis Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/25/19 7:08 pm
Originally Posted by Psychopasta
Hey Lannis, are you the same Lannis who posts on WildGuzzi?


As far as I know, I'm like Tigger : I'm The Only One!

Lannis
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/25/19 7:31 pm
I thought it must be you. I'm the same Psychopasta as over there...
Posted By: Mark Z Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/25/19 8:41 pm
Originally Posted by Psychopasta
Thanks Mark. Seems to me that a sludge trap that needs the engine to be torn down to get at defeats the point of a sludge trap.


When these things were built, the expected time-to-overhaul was 10-15K miles, 20K at most. With proper maintenance, the sludge trap would not fill up in that span. They were also not planning on bikes sitting idle for 20 years.

The sitting idle is a big part of the problem. In one engine I tore down, the sludge in the trap had the consistency of a wax crayon, which can only have occurred from sitting over a long period of time, possibly in an adverse environment.

But again, take a reading on what you find in the sump; if it's not excessively grungy, it may be safe to run the engine as is.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/25/19 10:13 pm
Fair point Mark. I have a feeling the engine will need to be torn down. It looks like the bike has been well (ab)used as a tracker. I'll be draining the fluids and having a looksee soon.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/26/19 8:06 pm
Took the tank and seat off to get a closer look. The old girl does look a bit knackered:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and can you believe it? No toolkit!
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

But basically sound. I do not like the exhausts that it has. Note how they are held onto the head:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and the way they go below the frame rails:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

You can see why it has no center stand, and I'm going to have to remove the exhausts in order to be able to support the bike on its frame. Nice use of a piece of wire to keep them connected!

Next thing: I can find no evidence of a frame number:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Took off the side panel. I have three of the four Oddie screws
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Does anyone have any idea why it has three condensors?
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

In other news, the tank is in good shape. A few small dents, any suggestions fro removing them?

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Though all the mounting rubbers are more depressed than Marvin the paranoid android. All thoughts and observations gratefully received
Posted By: raf940 Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/26/19 11:15 pm
might as well take the whole thing apart and start from square one do one piece at a time allow several thousand bucks and many months of work it will be fun!! here before and after of my bitsa rig

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]anthropology careers and salaries
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
Posted By: Mark Z Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/27/19 1:18 am
Wow Psychopasta, how did the first picture look so good? Yeah, like Raf said, you're looking at a bit by bit resto...

Condensers: Someone used a 3-pack off a Trident or a Rocket 3. Note only two are connected.

So it's not a 2-into-1 exhaust. The stock header pipes also just push into the head, but they are secured by the frame mounts and either a cross-brace, or a crossover pipe on later models. In lieu of these supports, the springs are required to hold the pipes in place. This is a common racing adaptation.

'67 models had the serial number on the gusset around the headstock, left side.








Posted By: Ignoramus Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/27/19 2:47 am
what MarkZ said is pretty much what I thought (about how did 1st pic look so good)

when I first saw it I thought ........wow that tank looks good but on 2nd batch of pics now I see

Its a full tear down job for sure ........you can guarantee all the seals will be gone and going by the amount of rust on nuts ect all the motor internals wont be so good either ........good start point for a restoration however

what you need to decide before you start is what sort of standard you want to finish it to ........a parts books restoration would be a money pit........everything re-plated ect will add up fast.......but hey its a good bike worth doing to what ever standard you decide.
Posted By: MarcB Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/27/19 3:24 am
That frame doesn't appear to match the motor. That's a set of 69-and-up cases, based on the shifting mechanism in the timing cover and the oil pressure fitting in the front. If it's a Y bike then it's a 1970 motor. It's possible it was put in a 67 frame because of the A65LA VIN confusion, and the vin rubbed (or filed) off to hide the mismatched numbers.

In any case, a lot of work ahead for you.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/27/19 3:28 am
Very nice raf! How does she go and handle now?
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/27/19 3:36 am
Yep, I think the chances of change the fluids and fire her up are pretty slim. Here's a bit more:

Closeup of the exhaust going into the cylinder head:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Spring removed:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Remove this one bolt:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Off it comes! One spring, one bolt:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

same on the other side, of course. Peek-a-boo:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/27/19 5:09 am
By the fact there is no raised pad on the left hand front engine lug I would say the frames a 65/66 (65 frame number on headstock, 66 frame number on engine lug. From 67 the pig had a squared off section for stamping on)

Motor looks like 69, got all the later features but with 5/16 barrel studs, some ones fitted a later outer timing cover on there.

Still it’s all a very good start for a project.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/27/19 4:43 pm
Thanks Allen. I'm pleased with it, and am looking forward to getting started. I bought it as-is, from a previous owner who didn't know much more about it than I did. My goal is to turn it into a nice little runner, but not a concours or period-correct thing.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 08/27/19 4:49 pm
Best way to be, if you have something a little more unique or special then it’s nice to keep it stock but it’s always much more fun to make it as something which suits you, you’ll also get more pleasure from it that way.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/05/19 9:16 pm
So here's my current thinking on the Lightning project.

My goal is the minimum restore, get her running and roadworthy. To that end, and in no particular order:

1. Top end service, check valve clearance and give it a general once over. I don't want to ask any questions I might not like the answer to, so I won't strip the engine down right now. I'll swap out the valve springs in any case, but won't go further than I obviously need to when the head's open.

My only uncertainly is the oil pump. I'm OCD about oil, and am thinking about the SRM oil pump. Can I install that with the engine still in the frame?

2. Wiring. I have zero confidence in 52 year old wiring, so I'm going to rewire it. I'll also make it 12V negative earth like the good Lord intended, and fit electronic ignition. I'm leaning towards Pazon but would be open to advice and experience from the forum.I'll need to add indicators cos I don't like not having them, and rebuild the headlamp shell and idiot light. Rather tha upgrade the alternator I'll use LED bulbs to minimize the draw from the system

3. I'm going to rebuild the front forks, just so I know what I've got. The forks are Betor units, and I don't know much about them so I want to have a good look and see what I've got.

4. I'll also rebuild both brakes and just see what condition the wheels are in. I'll swap out bearings as a matter of course.

5. The frame is in good shape, and doesn't need repainting, so I'll restrict myself to pulling the swing arm and changing the bearings.

6. New Hagon shocks, new tires, new exhaust, new handlebars.

7. General clean up and paint with VHT Gloss epoxy paint.

Any thoughts, experiences, suggestions?
Posted By: htown Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/05/19 9:49 pm
That one port (drive side?) looks like it has a look of oil in it. Maybe a badly leaking exhaust guide?
Posted By: Nick H Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/05/19 10:03 pm
Maybe you'll get lucky and get one of the later iron oil pumps. Said to be better. Informative post here by CBS:
https://www.classicbritishspares.com/blogs/news/the-bsa-a65-oil-pump-journal-1962-1972
I bought a '67 BSA A65 Lightning on Ebay and while it looks nice and the price was good, the motor had no pistons, clutch, alternator, oil pump.
All stuff that is inside and one can't tell they weren't there! That's my next project.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/05/19 11:23 pm
@Htown, yeah, the top end may need some work. @Nick H, yes the bike looks great but I didn't realize the engine cases were hollow...
Posted By: htown Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/05/19 11:37 pm
Before I spent the money on an SRM pump, I'd try to gauge the amount of wear on the timing side bush. Mike Brown shows how to in this book.
https://www.amazon.com/Building-Bud...567726469&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmr0
Posted By: Ignoramus Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/05/19 11:40 pm
gota say Psy you have a seriously good camera..........superb close up detail
Posted By: NickL Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/06/19 12:32 am
Originally Posted by htown
Before I spent the money on an SRM pump, I'd try to gauge the amount of wear on the timing side bush. Mike Brown shows how to in this book.
https://www.amazon.com/Building-Bud...567726469&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmr0


+1.

A complete waste of money if the bush is worn.
If you can get bigger than a 1.5-2 thou feeler in the bush/journal then a new bush is needed.
Stick a return line oil filter on it as a matter of course.
Chances are the existing pump would be ok if rebuilt properly.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/06/19 1:25 am
Good point, thanks
Posted By: MarcB Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/06/19 1:01 pm
Sounds a bit backwards approach to me. What good is a bike with new valve springs (?!?) and great brakes, suspension, tires, electrical, and wheel bearings if the motor is shot? The amount of oil in the exhaust port is way too much to be a simple leaky exhaust guide. That sticky stuff has actually been through the combustion chamber. Note that the pressure in the exhaust chamber is up and out so any oil getting pulled in would be in the pipes, not around the valve.

At a minimum, pull the head and primary cover. If it were me, I'd also pull the barrels to check rings and big-end play, and re-ring if within specs. Check the state of the mechanical bits, like pistons/cylinders, valves, bearing/bush. The biggest unknown on these bikes tends to be the sludge trap, and that can't be checked without a full teardown, so you'll be taking a chance regardless.

If it isn't too bad, fix the minimum needed to fire it up and listen for weird noises. Keep in mind that any the motor may have sat for a long time and may have debris just waiting for heat and fresh detergent oil to break free and cause havoc. Once you have a working motor, now's the time to build a bike around it.

Lastly, the right-side case is definitely 69-and-up. I haven't seen a good picture of the primary side to know if it's matching. If the engine is a A65LA with a Y in the VIN, it's not a '67. There were a ton of changes that happened to the engine cases between 1968 and 1970, including different threads on the hardware and different sized studs. You don't have a VIN on the frame... do you have a title for this? Don't go too far before you know if this thing is legal.
Posted By: Adam M. Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/06/19 1:44 pm
Originally Posted by Psychopasta
So here's my current thinking on the Lightning project.

My goal is the minimum restore, get her running and roadworthy. To that end, and in no particular order:

1. Top end service, check valve clearance and give it a general once over. I don't want to ask any questions I might not like the answer to, so I won't strip the engine down right now. I'll swap out the valve springs in any case, but won't go further than I obviously need to when the head's open.

My only uncertainly is the oil pump. I'm OCD about oil, and am thinking about the SRM oil pump. Can I install that with the engine still in the frame?

2. Wiring. I have zero confidence in 52 year old wiring, so I'm going to rewire it. I'll also make it 12V negative earth like the good Lord intended, and fit electronic ignition. I'm leaning towards Pazon but would be open to advice and experience from the forum.I'll need to add indicators cos I don't like not having them, and rebuild the headlamp shell and idiot light. Rather tha upgrade the alternator I'll use LED
>
Any thoughts, experiences, suggestions?


Mhm, I expect a hard working A65 engine without a proper oil filter to be worn down and your engine looks like it is.
It needs proper rebuild if you want to have a reliable bike in a future. Stock or old pattern parts don't have a very long life in those engines, exhaust valves and guides were normally done after 2 seasons, I believe they will be done after a season of track racing.
The head needs higher quality valves and guides ( Kibblewhite in a US ), I'm pretty sure your timing bush and con rod's shells need replacing as well.
I'm curious about a head in this bike, is it a small port or later big port head?
Small port is worth to have, here have it works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UEJ-4I_QnQ

Additional full flow engine oil filter is a must to protect your investment in a bike, but I don't agree with not upgrading an alternator, when prices of 1 phase and 3 phase stators are the same. You need only a new stator and regulator / rectifier which you would need with 1 phase alternator anyway. Pazon for ignition is OK, I don't think your Betor front end needs anything but changing oil.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/06/19 2:36 pm
Thanks for the suggestions guys. The comment about valve springs was that the bike has sat for 20 years, and so one of the springs has been under compression all that time. It's generally accepted that valve springs are consumables to be renewed with the barn find class. All I meant was, I expect to replace those, the rest is wait and see.

Most of the earlier advice I got was to do a minimum of work until the bike is rideable, but as time has gone on the majority opinion seems to be that a full engine teardown is needed :-) I suspect that when I do open the engine up, one thing will lead to another ohno
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/10/19 2:00 am
Ah, British bikes...they put the side stand on the left, and the oil tank drain hole on the side at the right, so you have to lean the bike over and hold it the other way to the side stand in order to get all the oil out. Love it.

That gripe aside, the 'filter', if I can call it that looked fairly clean:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and it was time to get the bike up on the ramp. It doesn't have a center stand, so I just used a scissor jack at the rear of the frame, plus a wheel chock and some tie-downs to keep it all solid:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Here's a better close-up of the oily port:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and the dry one:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Current plan is get the top off and have a good look, then get the barrels off and have a good look, and then get the rest of the engine out of the frame for rebuilding. Stay tuned!
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/12/19 4:33 am
Wife was out with her boozy mates tonight so I got a little Bitsa time. Took off the air filters and carbs:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

On the RHS the bolts were so tight that the stud unscrewed from the cylinder head instead:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Red loctite on the carb mounting bolts:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

LHS one came off without any trouble but I noticed its tickler is gone:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and the throttle cable has corroded solidly into the carb slide:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Soaked it in WD40 and left it for another day.

Sump plate came off:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and judging from the sheer volume of oil, I'd say it was wet-sumping. Seriously, more came out the sump than the tank! Filter looked OK, as did the oil itself:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/12/19 9:19 am
With the sump plate off you can get a crude indication of crank end float by prying the flywheel left / right, better still if you put a clock gauge on the crank end, primary side is easiest at this stage. The seized carb stud is a crude piece of screwed rod, the carb end should have a finer thread.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/15/19 1:09 am
Good point Gavin, I'll try that soon
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/15/19 1:13 am
So today was mainly about removing all the stuff so I can get clear access to the engine. My plan now is to do a full rebuild of the motor, so it has to come out of the frame, and a bunch of stuff has to move to allow that. The good news is that soaking the bike in WD40 when I first got it, and a few more times since, seems to have worked well, and I had no problems with undoing any bolts. Yet.

Anyway, off with all this:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Mr. Frodo! Thaat's a left-'anded Whitworth right there!
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
and off with this:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Lets the whole brake chain come off as a piece. Interestingly, there seems to be no bolt for this to screw into, and it seems to have been held in place by the rust. Held quite well, I might add.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Then another left'aanded Whitworth:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Removing the clutch inspection cover revealed some fine swarf-like material
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Urgh. With the footpeg off, I could see a crack in the sidecover that had been masked by the footpeg:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
The bigger ding I could see before, and I'm OK with, but I don't like the crack. Getting the cover off shows it's been supported from the rear by some JB Weld or similar:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Would welcome opinions on whether this is serviceable or scrap.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/15/19 1:22 am
Looking at the clutch, it seems that the clutch springs were not done up with the correct tool, or even a chisel with a divot ground in it
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
The screws are flush with where you could get it with an ordinary screwdriver, or a smaller one used on just one side with a hammer used to drift the screw round. Oh well. Everything else look OK:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
On the other side, the timing cover came off easily
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
and looks fine at first glance. I pulled out the bodged wiring loom, ignition coils and mounting brackets, and removed all the oil lines from the tank. Then removed the screws holding the toolholder in:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Both the oil tank and toolholder are now free, but will not come out until I remove the rear fender I think. Then, 'twas beer o'clock and tools were downed for the day
Posted By: NickL Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/15/19 1:38 am
See if you can get hold of a late primary chain cover, they have the window for timing the bike.
It would be correct for the engine year too.
The old heap has been dropped at some stage so the dinged primary is standard, put a welding tip
on it and it'll be like a banana unless the bloke who's doing it is good. JB weld is fine in there if done
reasonably well.
Love the points wiring lol.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/15/19 10:03 am
A couple of tips.
Leave the gearchange return spring mounted, do not disturb this unless you suspect the change is not clean in both directions, the spring is mounted on an eccentric which is turned to tune the change action, if its good dont mess with it.

The clutch plate stack is very worn, as shown by the amount of free threads on the adjuster, budget for new steels and frictions for the rebuild, the swarf is most likely from the adjuster screw chewing into the inspection cap, I have had cracked cases successfully welded before , SRM did the fix, best get someone who is V competent for this, or stick with the JB weld repair. Nicks suggestion is a better fix. giving easy access to the strobe marks.

You might want to re assemble the rear wheel and brake after removing the oil tank, its very useful to use the brake when undoing transmission fasteners.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/15/19 1:11 pm
Or use a dry clutch and not worry about the repair. If using an epoxy like Jb weld, you need all the oil removed from the case, before application. Using a dremel sander will help remove any varnishing before applying, but once it’s on it will give a good seal for a very long time.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/15/19 7:48 pm
Thanks guys. I know what you mean Gavin, but the whole thing is going to get stripped down.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/16/19 12:50 am
lookin at the pics, you have the later 3 spring clutch, the earlier flat top ball type oil pressure relief valve, a V early primary chaincase with no strobe plate, late 70 or 71 timing chest with the ball ramp clutch actuator and adjustable gear change return spring, late 6CA type points. The case fasteners dont look too bad , not too many signs of butchery, apart from the points wire.And that looks better than the usual bodge.
Guessing that the core of the motor is 70 and the old primary replaced an early prang victim, probably what claimed the original front end
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/16/19 1:03 am
But apart from the clutch, the oil relief valve, the primary chaincase, the timing chest, the clutch actuator, the gear change return spring and the points, it's all original, right?
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/16/19 1:26 am
Yeah , forsure , still a good bike, most of the wrong stuff is better.
Posted By: MarcB Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/16/19 1:30 am
Nothing on this motor indicates '67 to me. That's a '70 on both sides... Except for the early primary cover.

The raised VIN pad and cast-in stator mount proves that.

Hardware holding the primary and timing covers will be different between 67 and 70 so tread carefully when repaving hardware.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/16/19 1:41 am
This is a good time to check crank end float, remove the 4 sump plate bits , pry the flywheels left /right, if you hear a clunk, try to measure it with a clock gauge on the end of the shaft at the primary , this is good to know, and will help later. It should be close to FA , which is in laymans terms 0.0015 to 0.003 ", or put poritry , just perceptible.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/16/19 8:13 am
Originally Posted by MarcB
Nothing on this motor indicates '67 to me. That's a '70 on both sides... Except for the early primary cover.

The raised VIN pad and cast-in stator mount proves that.




Not really, cast stator mounts were used from 68, and late 68 build motors (NC) had raised number pads. But since it’s fitted with 69 and earlier barrels then I’d say it’s a 69
Posted By: MarcB Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/16/19 1:12 pm
Originally Posted by Allan Gill
Not really, cast stator mounts were used from 68, and late 68 build motors (NC) had raised number pads. But since it’s fitted with 69 and earlier barrels then I’d say it’s a 69

Still not a '67. Allan, do you know if the '69 cases had the raised pad without the BSA imprints in them? I have a set of cases that match this (small studs, no imprints).

Originally Posted by Psychopasta
But apart from the clutch, the oil relief valve, the primary chaincase, the timing chest, the clutch actuator, the gear change return spring and the points, it's all original, right?


I think you were joking there, but apart from the timing cover it appears to be '69 based on the barrel studs.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/16/19 3:05 pm
Originally Posted by MarcB
Originally Posted by Allan Gill
Not really, cast stator mounts were used from 68, and late 68 build motors (NC) had raised number pads. But since it’s fitted with 69 and earlier barrels then I’d say it’s a 69

Still not a '67. Allan, do you know if the '69 cases had the raised pad without the BSA imprints in them? I have a set of cases that match this (small studs, no imprints).


Far from it (from being a 67)

There were different variations on the castings around that point.

The first lot were not machined at all, and the numbers stamped straight on the casting.

There were others where the whole area below the casting was also raised, but the area for the numbers was machined and had the BSA backing stamp,

then the more common type which is like the first but a machined face with backing stamp.


All in 69'

More sadly the "TA/LA -Y" numbers were used regardless of 69 or 70. Some even marked up with an X but I don't think Ive seen more than 1 (that would have been a set of cases on a jumble somewhere)
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/16/19 7:02 pm
This is a Y numbered engine (can't recall ifY or -Y, will check)
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/17/19 9:44 am
So I got the rocker cover off today

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Also took off the points to show the advance/retard
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Not much to report, looks clean enough. In other news, the middle engine mounting bolt is MIA:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Gary E Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/17/19 10:38 am
The rear fender looks to be a Hornet/Wasp style. Hard to source those. It has value.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/17/19 2:50 pm
And it's in great shape too, Gary. It should clean up well
Posted By: NickL Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/17/19 11:00 pm
If it's suspected of being anything other than a '67 (which it is)
You can stop all the procrastination by having the bloody thing carbon dated.

OR just tell people it's an old beezer and ride it.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/17/19 11:19 pm
Carbon dating for motorcycles...I'll bet Ichiban Moto has a video on that...
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/19/19 3:32 am
OK chaps, I got the inner timing cover off with no real issues, but one oddity I wasn't expecting. The back of the advance/retard mechanism just doesn't want to be removed:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Once the inner cover was off, the intermediate gear is connected to it:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

How do I separate them? Just a puller, or something more subtle?

Also, here's some shots of the gear side now the cover is off:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Some fairly thick, gloopy gearbox oil there.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/19/19 7:20 am
I’m not sure of the thread size but a bolt will be thread-able into the AAU (didn’t need stripping apart) once you’ve found a long one that fits. Grind about the first 5 threads off so that they go past the threads of the AAU, when tighten this it should push the AAU off the idler gear
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/19/19 8:53 am
The workshop manual explains how to remove the AR mech.
Posted By: Adam M. Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/19/19 2:01 pm
Looks like DD oil pump.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/19/19 2:10 pm
Thanks guys. Adam, what is a DD oil pump?
Posted By: Adam M. Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/19/19 2:37 pm
This is the best pump BSA made with one exception - it still have zinc alloy body.
The last pumps from 1972 had cast iron body, much less susceptible for leaks between two parts of the body and much stiffer.
Posted By: Nick H Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/19/19 2:40 pm
Read the tech file from sponsor CBS about BSA oil pumps:
https://www.classicbritishspares.com/blogs/news/the-bsa-a65-oil-pump-journal-1962-1972
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/19/19 4:58 pm
Thanks!
Posted By: Ola Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/19/19 7:40 pm
To separate the idler gear from the aa-unit, you can put approx 1∕2 inch of a suitable nail or bolt in the hole, and use the headlight fixing bolt as a puller.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/20/19 7:56 pm
Thanks all. Got the idler off just fine.

I have something else I'd like your advice on. On the clutch, I have the three retaining bolts

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and I have a tool for them from CBS. The top two respond just fine, but the third one, at the bottom, doesn't. The slots are pretty graunched up to begin with, but as I try to turn the screw I can feel the spring behind resist me until the tool loses purchase on the slot and slips out. The slot springs back to its original position. Any experience with this?
Posted By: MarcB Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/20/19 8:28 pm
The spring is wound is the same way a lock washer is... so it effectively "holds" the screw in place and bites as you try to undo it. Being a spring, it will twist in place and pop back the second you let go. You'll never to overcome the friction to get it undone.

Try putting a bit of weight against it as you undo it to prevent the tool from popping out. Once it starts it will be much easier.

The spring cups look pretty knackered on yours as well.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/20/19 8:57 pm
Thanks. I can see drilling two small holes into this screw to give the tool more to bite into. I'm going to replace this with an SRM clutch so don't mind being a little destructive
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/20/19 10:17 pm
Drilling those two small indents let me get the screw off
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
The other two came off, and the cover came off complete with the cover over the cush drive rubbers:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
so I removed the rubbers as well. You can see two broken-off studs still in the clutch basket:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
I was able to get the clutch nut off with an air-powered impact driver, just like Mike Brown says in his book.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/20/19 11:19 pm
What does the other side of the end plate that fell off look like?
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/21/19 12:37 am
Like so:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/21/19 9:37 am
that looks pretty unworn, just unlucky with the broken studs.
Posted By: NickL Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/21/19 9:49 am
It's got an aftermarket one piece bronze timing side main bush in it.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/21/19 10:30 am
Once you get the clutch in bits compare the wear on the inner cush drive end plate to the relatively unworn outer, thats where all the slop tends to appear , you can see the spider wear marks in the pics. IME its cheaper in the long run to fit a complete new cush drive rather than try to repair old worn items.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/21/19 3:45 pm
Thanks very much guys, I appreciate the help. I know nothing about BSAs of this vintage, so I'm learning as I go.

@NickL, do you mean the bushing the pinion is in, or some other:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/21/19 5:01 pm
Nick means the large bush behind the crank end pinion. The nut securing the pinion and worm drive is a Left hand Thread, to pull the pinion you will probably have to grind down the claws of a small puller to get into the notches at the rear of the pinion. Do not be tempted to pull the gear through the bush, that guarantees destruction. before you do that check for up and down play in the bush mentioned , more than 0.0015 " is not good. The 70 in front of the casting mark, suggests 1970 cases , could be wrong though.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/21/19 5:06 pm
The timing chest looks pretty clean in side, by comparison my motor has a load more staining and varnish on the inner surfaces, could be its barely run since last opened up. What threads are the case 1/4" diameter fasteners, fine ( BSF) or coarse , UNC?
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/21/19 7:41 pm
Something else to check at this stage, beneath the main shaft of the gearbox there is the layshaft, before stripping any further check the end float of the layshaft, it should be " just perceptible" or about 2- 3 thou if it clunks measure how much there is so you can shim correctly on the rebuild, this one small step will make or mar the gear change.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/21/19 8:07 pm
OK, so here's where I got to today. I'll go back and make the measurements Gavin suggested. Alternator and clutch are now full off, with no major issues. Hand pressure with a pickle fork got the rotor off:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
and here's the removed assembly
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and the rotor passes the toolbox test:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/21/19 9:21 pm
Be nice to the rotor , keep it wrapped in the stator or the magnetism will bleed away.

To get a decent endfloat measurement on the crank its best if the rotor and sprocket are still fitted otherwise it wont make any sense.
Temp refit the the front sprocket and rotor with nut tight before taking end floats if you havent done so already. Theres two ways the crank wears, thrust end to end , and up and down , gotta know both , the thrust is looked after by a fancy bronze washer and some shims at the drive side bearing, if you get a reading now it will save some time on reassembly, at least you will know if it needs , no shimming or + 10 or whatever.
For up and down you are looking at wear at the timing side bush, a clock gauge is the usual way, but as Nick suggests , if you can get a 2 thou feeler into the bush / crank you know its Fecked.
Theres meant to be a washer behind the chain tensioner blade, and the crank to sprocket spacer is still sitting in the oi seal at the mains. On the TS , there is no tab washer fitted to the mainshaft nut , good job you are in there.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/21/19 9:39 pm
Put up a few good pics of the drive side crank cases around the engine numbers, the primary case and timing case screws, and one or two of the barrel flanges and flange nuts.
The number boss is late, the cases around the boss look like they have been buffed down , there is usually a prominent casting flash running vertically around where the L is in the motor number.
Posted By: quinten Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/21/19 9:55 pm
.
buried in some official workshop manuals
... it states ... a rotor keeper is not needed .


.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/21/19 10:49 pm
When I bought my last rotor it came with a keeper. Dont take any chances with magnetism. Once its gone you need to have sex with a welder to get it back. The manual is just marks on paper.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/21/19 11:27 pm
You have quite the way the words there Gavin. I'll keep the rotor inside the armature at all times.

Sadly I didn't think of measuring the end float prior to disassembly and do not yet have a dial gauge. I did get th gearbox out however:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

BTW, it ran rich when it last ran:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/21/19 11:29 pm
And here are the requested photos:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Jon W. Whitley Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/21/19 11:47 pm
Definitely 1970 model engine.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/22/19 12:47 am
Put the gear cluster back in temp, do up the nuts and make the end float measurement, if you dont do it now do it on the rebuild, doing it now lets you buy the right shim in time. These cases look buffed to me, someone might have cared for this motor.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/22/19 12:50 am
Weird barrel nuts for a 70, would have been bihex originally, the flange looks thick enough, measure the studs OD are they 3/8th".?
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/22/19 1:09 am
The end float is clearly noticeable by hand, and I can hear a clunk as I push and pull the end the the crank... eek
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/22/19 1:17 am
So I got the top end off. Loosened the rockers:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
and knocked out the cams and took off the rockers carefully labelling everything. Then it was time fro the Whitworth and Hammer:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Got all the bolts off, including the deeply recessed one. The top end came off with just a little encouragement froma block of wood in the ports and a hammer
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Here's the lower part:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Copper washer looks OK
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/22/19 1:22 am
And here she is at the end of play today:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: NickL Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/22/19 3:27 am
Dogs and gears look pretty good, make sure the camplate tracks for the selectors and the index plunger are not worn too badly.
When you shim the layshaft do it from the drive side. (the factory never did it!) As Gavin says, a couple of thou endfloat is all you want.
All looks pretty good so far. If the rotor is out for any length of time a keeper is needed. (just use the stator)
If you use a drop of loctite on the timing side crank locknut, you can dispense with the tab washer.
As you've probably found out, it's easier to remove the oil pump and worm drive as one. You don't have to do that if you use 3 bolts
rather than the original studs for the pump.

That's a 5/16 top end Gavin, probably cases too, that's why the hex nuts.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/22/19 9:33 am
The cases have the BSA embossed number pad, weird to find 5/16" barrel studs.I thought the embossed number pads all came with 3/8" barrel studs.
Posted By: MarcB Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/22/19 1:41 pm
Head also appears to have small studs. Maybe a set of factory replacement cases?
Posted By: kommando Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/22/19 3:05 pm
All the unstamped factory replacement cases built later I have seen come with the updated threads etc, ie cycle becomes UNF/UNC, the exception is some B25 cases made in 71 which had the narrow rear mount for 70 and before. There should be some small stamps on the crankcases showing a date, this started from 69 onwards or maybe earlier.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/22/19 9:36 pm
OK, so now for the money shots. In as much as, how much money is this gonna cost?

I got the cylinder barrel off after using some heat to soften the gasket, which was clamping tight. Here are the pistons:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


and the bowel of the beast
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/22/19 9:39 pm
And the cylinders...
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: NickL Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/22/19 10:13 pm
Originally Posted by MarcB
Head also appears to have small studs. Maybe a set of factory replacement cases?


No, the rear two are 3/8 as well.


That looks like a good set of barrels, the bores are evenly spaced, a lot of them were well over to one side.
Pistons look good, measure them up and check the ring gaps and bores, may not need any new gear there
just a hone and done.
Spend a while filing a 45 deg lead on the bores at the base, it makes assembly much easier.
Posted By: Tridentman Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/22/19 11:20 pm
Yes--looks pretty good.
Suggestion: put some rag or some pipe insulation around the con rods to stop them banging against the crankcase.
Knocks and nicks start fatigue failures.
Sorry Nick--not referring to you! (Brit humor).
Posted By: David Kavanagh Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/22/19 11:47 pm
Did I spot a crack in #2 cylinder wall? I saw it in 2 pictures in a row, but later ones were blurry in that area, so I couldn't be sure.

Attached picture Screen Shot 2019-09-22 at 7.46.11 PM.jpg
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/23/19 12:57 am
Hi David,

It does look like a crack, but it's just a scratch in the enamel. Looks fearsome:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
but a little rubbing with wire wool:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/23/19 1:00 am
Well, end of phase 1 today: engine is out of the frame:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Now I have removed all the case connecting bolts, but it looks to have been stuck together with loads of sealant, and it has resisted moderate attempts to split the cases. Before I get medieval on it, any advice for case splitting?
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/23/19 6:38 am
Soak the cases in brake
fluid
cleaner around the sealant. It will soften it right up in a day.
Posted By: markoz Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/23/19 12:57 pm
Its very clean inside, may not have done a lot of work before being layed up.
Nice going, enjoy.
Posted By: Adam M. Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/23/19 1:15 pm
Great looking pistons and barrels, but lots of oil in one combustion chamber.
Check your valves / guides clearances.
Posted By: Adam M. Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/23/19 1:16 pm
Great looking pistons and barrels, but lots of oil in one combustion chamber.
Check your valves / guides clearances.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/23/19 1:55 pm
Thanks Allan, I would never have thought of using brake fluid.
Posted By: NickL Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/23/19 8:59 pm
You have the old type oil pressure relief valve fitted , it may be worth replacing that with the late one especially if
you have an srm pump.
Should be running in a day or two eh?
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/24/19 6:23 am
Originally Posted by Psychopasta
Thanks Allan, I would never have thought of using brake fluid.
. Sorry Psycho, had a typo. It was brake cleaner I was thinking of, brake fluid might work as it will remove paint but I did mean cleaner
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/24/19 8:48 am
OK, well I'll find out soon what brake fluid does as it put it on last night beerchug

I must admit, I was wondering how on earth you found out to use brake fluid. Brake cleaner I can get, good solvent.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/24/19 9:18 am
Petrol works as well, especially on Silicon RTV type gasket goo.
petrol makes RTV expand, thats why it isnt used on carbs.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/27/19 3:05 am
Well, it turns out that brake fluid works pretty well too. Who knew? thumbsup

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 09/27/19 3:07 am
Now for the cases:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

All case parts now off for vapor blasting
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 10/05/19 8:50 pm
Any advice on removing the swing arm pivot? I've removed both nuts, sprayed with WD40, used a propane torch and wailed mightily with a hammer but I cannot get the pivot to budge. The swing arm rotates around the pivot bolt just fine, but the bolt just doesn't want to come out. Help!
Posted By: Hugh Jorgen Re: Barn Find Beeza - 10/06/19 12:05 am
No experience myself (yet), but there are ghosts from the past:

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=290597
Posted By: David Kavanagh Re: Barn Find Beeza - 10/06/19 1:25 am
I used a rubber mallet. I had the nut threaded on a few threads and the mallet did the job to get it moving safely.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 10/06/19 1:42 am
That's a useful thread you linked there Huge. Mine is on tighter than a very tight thing and I may have to resort to some hacksawery to get it off. Bugger.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 10/06/19 1:56 am
Finished off dismantling the frame today. Or almost.

Rear wheel came off just fine. My bike has no speedo drive, just a spacer and a cap. More evidence (if it were needed) that's she's mainly been a racer:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Rear wheel came off just fine, as did the drive wheel:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Front wheel came off as usual, and the betor forks my bike has just came smoothly out of the triple clamps without fuss:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Disassembling the top clamp showed that the triple tree runs of open ball bearings in races:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Oh well. Will look into replacing these with proper bearings in due course.

The biggest cause of frustration today was getting the swing arm pivot spindle out, and it still is. I may have to get medieval on it tomorrow. We'll see what tomorrow brings. But the frame is now completely disassembled except for the swing arm, which is clinging on for dear life.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 10/06/19 8:01 pm
Well, have given the swing arm pivot as good as I've got and decided to give up. Discretion is the better part of valour, and all that. Need to find a shop with a press that can take it out.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 10/06/19 10:29 pm
Hah! Never discount a Scotsman in a bad mood. Swingarm removed.

Destroyed, possibly, but removed definitely. Look away now if you're of a nervous disposition...

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Coupled with a hacksaw leads to this:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

So swingarm is now out, but still embedded solidly inside the rubber bushings. Will try burning them out now.

Also, the frame piece where the swingarm pushes against now has a gentle raise in it:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

A bit of heat and I'll know that back too.

Are there any upgrades to the swingarm that don't involve all this rubber mounting?
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 10/06/19 10:48 pm
I am the God of Hellfire!

Managed to burn the bushings right out. Took some time, too:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Is there a better way of mounting the swingarm than this?
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 10/06/19 11:46 pm
The 1970 swinging arm is on solid bushes, I dont know if they fit the earlier arm, maybe they could be made to fit?, someone will know, keeping it stock is easy, the rubber bushes work well.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 10/07/19 12:00 am
Hey Gavin, Yep now I have destroyed the whole damn thing I can see that the problem is that the inner spindle seems to have been pressed in with no grease or any other lube, with the result that the whole thing has just frozen solid over the years. The manual says to give the pivot a move every 2000 miles, I'll bet that works just fine.

In other news, here's the front drum:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

How does that look to those who know their drums from their calipers? The brake surface looks very shiny, does it need roughing up, changing or leaving alone?
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 10/07/19 6:47 am
Looks like the original asbestos shoes.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 10/07/19 11:21 am
U-oh. I take it that's bad?
Posted By: GrandPaul Re: Barn Find Beeza - 10/07/19 1:34 pm
I may still have some bushings and materials, you can make a nice spindle with sintered bronze bushings like the ones I used to make for featherbeds. 140w oil like a Commando.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 10/07/19 2:54 pm
If were still on about headstock bearings, All pre OIF BSAs used cup and cone originally as pictured, they work perfectly fine if maintained properly and I would have no problems fitting another set myself. An alternative is taper roller bearings from the likes of SRM, I have these in mine, I think I dropped the bottom yoke out after 10 years and re-greased the bearings, they were still absolutly fine. The Alls Balls ones I got for my Honda had dust seals with them though ( I don't know if the new SRM ones do or not) but its something I would look at fitting another time!

The asbestos shoes will work better than whats available now! but if your state/county what ever has a zero asbestos law then you'll need to replace them, however last thing I would do is glaze bust the shoes or anything like that, no problem with the front hub though. Best thing you can do once/if you have the front wheel re-laced is have the drum skimmed and checked for true (lacing can pull the drum out of round, mine was out 0.040") New shoes to match the new oversized drum are usually supplied to suit. However you may find that the person doing the work will want the shoes you have there, thus able to bond the new linings to the casting.
Posted By: Mark Z Re: Barn Find Beeza - 10/08/19 2:35 am
The swingarm pivot is not intended to rotate in the bushings, nor are the bushings intended to rotate in the swingarm. The only movement is the twisting of the rubber between the inner and outer bushing shells. That's why there's no grease on the swingarm pivot. Grease might help to get the pivot out "the next time", but those times are so few and far between that the grease would probably dry up anyway.

I'm not sure if the frame is different for the all-metal bushings, but the swingarm is definitely different. The diameter of the tube is significantly greater.

Changing the Silentbloc bushings is a PITA for sure; wait till you try to get the outer shells out of the swingarm. Fortunately, this is a job that most of us only have to do once.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 10/08/19 12:39 pm
Once the swing arm shaft is tightened the bush inners clamp to the frame, if they haven’t then you will also see some side play in the arm. I grease mine and have never had a problem either by doing so.

The solid bush swing arms are narrower along where the cross over shaft sits, there then sits distance piece between that and the frame, I don’t believe the frames are any different in this area and one style of swing arm should fit a pre 69 frame.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 10/18/19 9:34 pm
Been off this project for a few weeks. Now back. Got the sludge trap out, which was quite the battle:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Only to find the sludge trap was as clean as a whistle:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

So clearly the engine wasn't run much after its last rebuild. Whether that's for good or ill, we'll have to see.

Next step is to measure up the crankshaft, cylinders etc and see what's what.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 10/19/19 9:52 pm
So I measured the cranks up. I took measurements in two planes, one along the oil holes in the crank (not across the holes themselves, of course, just in that plane) and one orthogonal to that. I took five measurements in each plane with a digital caliper than measured to 0.001 inches. Results were:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and across the output journals I took the same measurements, and got

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The cranks themselves were in well polished state with no obvious flaws. The output journal, inn er side has a bit of texture on it, but as this is the end of the piece that sits in the bush that may be normal. I just realized that the title should be 'Crank B, rotor side', oops.

I'm really open to your views as to whether the crank should be reground, or not.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 10/19/19 11:08 pm
Your terminology is weird. What you label as the " output journal", can only be the timing side , the drive side is the output.
From the 70 manual
Drive side main journal 1.125".

Crank pins ( big end journals ) std 1.6865 "- 1.687"

Timing side journal bush ID 1.500, the manual does not list the journal OD, somewhere around 1.499 " - 1.4985 would give a reasonable running clearance
A digital vernier is not accurate enough ( better known as a guessing stick ) , you need a 1 -2 " external micrometer and a fine touch.
Your method of measuring at 90 degrees is sound.
Some of your measurements are suspicious, particularly the "output journal" figures, the only way they could be greater than 1.500 is if the journal has been sleeved, quite possible, but I would take these numbers with a pinch of salt , get a proper micrometer or take it somewhere that has one..
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 10/19/19 11:48 pm
Thanks Gavin. This is the journal I mean:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

which is, the timing side as you say. I do agree that getting a thou of accuracy over 1.6 inches is hard, so manybeing getting someone with proper measuring equipment is the right choice
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 10/20/19 8:43 am
Get yourself a 2” micrometer. You should find that even if your vernier was really accurate you’d still have a high tolerance from user application.

Measure several points on the middle of the big end journal (inline with the oil holes) this is the area which shouldn’t see any wear. Then compare to both ends of the journal before the crank journal radius begins.

There’s no point in calculating standard deviation, either the journal reads the same all the way round over 4 measuring points per side or it doesn’t.

Also worth noting especially as the temperature is dropping now with the winter season approaching. Keep both the tool (micrometer) and the crank indoors for a few days, the indoor temperature will be more constant. It will also help you get a more consistent reading. A motor I did for a friend was showing a perfectly round journal but was showing to be between journal sizes, so before sending it for a regrind I did the above, left it several days with the micrometer sat on top of the crank then checked again. The journals were spot on size and it got built up into the motor.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 11/04/19 2:04 am
Betor Forks Disassembly

So today I got back onto it after a few weeks off and took the Betor forks apart. Everything disassembled easily enough, but I was surprised to find that the spring is unsupported through about half its travel

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I was expecting a rod that was held onto this right hand piece with a circlip or something, but no:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Bottom of the fork:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and the top of the bottom piece, as it were:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The spring just sits on the cup at the RHS of this piece

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Anyhting look odd or out of place to anyone?
Posted By: Ignoramus Re: Barn Find Beeza - 11/04/19 10:06 pm
JUSt got to say Phyco you are doing a very thorough job well done!

one observation i would make (just going by the gearbox sprocket condition) is you might have found a pretty low mileage bike........well worth the effort
Posted By: Jon W. Whitley Re: Barn Find Beeza - 11/05/19 12:24 am
Originally Posted by Ignoramus
JUSt got to say Psycho you are doing a very thorough job well done!

one observation i would make (just going by the gearbox sprocket condition) is you might have found a pretty low mileage bike........well worth the effort



I'll second that motion !!
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 11/06/19 4:25 pm


I second that emotion wink
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 11/06/19 5:00 pm
Thanks guys! When you don't really know what you're doing, being slow and methodical helps. As does asking questions of those who do...
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 11/12/19 7:08 pm
Hey guys, I need that advice now...

The cylinder barrels are within spec, however, they are cracked at the bottom of the skirts and have been previously repaired, but the cracks are coming through again:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

What say you? The bike will likely only be lightly used once reassembled, but I know these engines vibrate a LOT. Should I repair again, or get a new (or at least different) barrel?
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 11/12/19 7:13 pm
I have a crack at the bottom one the skirt on mine, mines been drilled just like yours and hasn’t spread since. The bike is also used in anger so providing the bore is true. Fit it and forget.
Posted By: Gary Hawthorn Re: Barn Find Beeza - 11/21/19 8:30 pm
I have been blessed, or so I believe, by recently buying a 1969 BSA A65T project(?) after Pasta started this thread. I then got lucky by landing on this site and this thread.

Since my concerns are not the same as what Pasta is enjoying, I just now created a thread.

"1969 BSA A65T resto in Vancouver". Please look at it and nudge me in the right direction.

I will of course continue to follow "Barn Find Beeza"

Cheers

Gary
Posted By: Mark Z Re: Barn Find Beeza - 11/22/19 4:54 am
Originally Posted by Gary Hawthorn
I have been blessed, or so I believe, by recently buying a 1969 BSA A65T project(?) after Pasta started this thread. I then got lucky by landing on this site and this thread.

Since my concerns are not the same as what Pasta is enjoying, I just now created a thread.

"1969 BSA A65T resto in Vancouver". Please look at it and nudge me in the right direction.

I will of course continue to follow "Barn Find Beeza"

Cheers

Gary


Gary, I can't find your new thread. Which forum did you post to?
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 11/22/19 1:10 pm
Originally Posted by Mark Z

Gary, I can't find your new thread. Which forum did you post to?


Its in the Projects Board
Posted By: Gary Hawthorn Re: Barn Find Beeza - 11/23/19 9:33 pm
I did not understand "boards". Should I request to have it moved to BSA only?

tks

gary
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 11/23/19 9:48 pm
As it’s a project it’s perfectly placed in the projects section. If it’s a specific make question then it belongs within the specific make, if it’s a general question ( like electrical etc) then place it there. Nothing stops you placing anything where you want to but to generate the best interest in the topic then place it where is most appropriate.

Hth
Posted By: Mark Z Re: Barn Find Beeza - 11/24/19 2:01 am
Yeah Gary, "Projects" is fine. It's just not one of the forums I peruse daily, and I expected to see your thread here in the same forum. Per Allan's direction, I went over there (and posted).

"Board" is short for bulletin board, which is an old name for this sort of application, now standardly referred to as a forum.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 12/01/19 6:37 pm
Hey guys,

I'd be grateful for advice on the two following topics:

1. Having hacked the swing arm bushes out, I'm now finding it hard to get replacements. I need the Silent Block Metalastik bushes for a 67 A65, part 42-4362. Any sources, or suggestions for other methods if I can't track them down?

2. I need to rebuild the front wheel, and I'm wondering if there is a reasonably easy replacement wheel with disk brake that I can use. Any recommended front wheel swaps?

- Pasta
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 12/01/19 7:25 pm
I managed to source the swing arm bushes, so that one's done. Any suggestions for a disk brake setup?
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 12/01/19 8:20 pm
Fitting a disc won’t be easy as you will need to rig some kind of Carrier for the calliper. You can make anything fit but you would need the forks also.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 12/01/19 9:36 pm
Since the front end is already non stock you have a world of choice.
The forks look OK, , if you know a man with a lathe pretty much any other hub brake will fit, these range from super spendy double sided multi shoe jobs, down to the later 68-70 8 inch TLS which is fairly common and very effective, somewhat heavy though.
If you change the front end entirely then the cheapest possibly would be some sort of oriental set up with a spoked front wheel and disc, Honda Hornet or somesuch, look at Hillbillys bike, it does the job. pretty much anything can be adapted to fit, but will need custom steering head bits to make it all play nice, lathe work again. later triumph bits will fit relatively easy , and have convenient rubber mounted H bars which fairly take out the dirl.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 12/02/19 2:16 am
Thanks guys. I'll give it some more thought. As you know, I have Betor forks and triple trees which are 35mm. I've cleaned the bits up somewhat, and did a trial build using the bearings that SRM provide to replace the open ball bearings in races. I'm not entirely sure about it though. Here's the fork all back together:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
and without the fork legs:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The SRM bearings press into the race carrier, which means that the contact point between the bearing and the mating surfaces in the frame are shifted somewhat:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I don't think the grease guard ring is going to do anything now as it's so much further away, and I may replace it with a rubber cup if I can find/make something suitable. Also, the net effect is to shorten the steering stem, which fortunately I can adjust the length of somewhat with the ring on the right hand side, which is the collar that is clamped into the middle of the top triple clamp

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

again, the grease ring is now pretty far away from the bearing so I can see some kind of rubber skirt being added:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]



Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 12/02/19 7:25 am
Why is there a top and bottom ball bearing cup still in place? Or was this there before to shim the gap?
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 12/02/19 4:51 pm
It seemed to me that this was intended to act as the carrier for the bearing.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 12/02/19 6:51 pm
So this was there before then? If it was me I would remove those old bearing cups and replace them with something of an ideal size, cylindrical and the full OD of the bearing. You could then sit your dust seal between this and the taper bearing, instead of it hanging in the breeze doing nothing, or have the shaft shortened to suit the length of the headstock.
Posted By: Mitch Re: Barn Find Beeza - 12/04/19 6:06 am
yep, get rid of the old cups and and shim as required. if you want to reduce the gap without shims, press the stem out of the bottom triple. it should have a snap ring on the bottom end. all you have to do is chuck it up and cut another groove at he desired depth & press it back in
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 12/04/19 4:54 pm
Thanks guys
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 12/14/19 2:40 am
Getting the engine and head back together as a trial build. Just need to strip the cases again, use magic goo and reassemble with bright shiny nuts and bolts...

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

One new conrod as the original was out-of-round and new pistons and rings as the pistons were quite badly marked. Cylinder bore was fine. The head was done with new valves, springs and valve guides. Valve seats were cut and valves lapped. New crank bearing installed, sprocket bearing installed as well.


Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 12/14/19 4:31 am
Double dots on the TS con rod, enough collets for two valves, , shiny.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 12/14/19 6:27 am
Not sure what you mean Gavin...
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 12/14/19 9:14 am
There are two centre punch marks half way up the rod.

Did you weigh the rods first? Some Are different weights.

Also a note on your drive side rod, there are some small knocks which are near your small end. You will want to polish these out with some wet and dry if nothing else. Making all your marks in a up down motion - never side ways. Marks like these on the rod are the beginnings of a snapped rod.
Posted By: triton thrasher Re: Barn Find Beeza - 12/14/19 10:02 am
Originally Posted by gavin eisler
Double dots on the TS con rod.


Has someone done that to number the rods and not swap them over?

I’d have used a piece of tape.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 12/14/19 10:15 am
It’s not something I’ve ever seen mid way up the rod, I used to do it near the end cap one dot for TS on both rod and cap and 2 dots on DS. This way you would also know which way round the caps were and which went to the front of the motor. I only fit new rods now and these are date marked covering both cap and rod by the maker so makes life easier on that way.
Posted By: Adam M. Re: Barn Find Beeza - 12/14/19 2:13 pm
No dots on my older 6866 rods, other than a number on rods and cups,however I have two oil holes in one rod so assume this is a drive side rod. Would like to get newer shot peened rods anyway.
Posted By: Nick H Re: Barn Find Beeza - 12/14/19 2:33 pm
I recently had my A65 crank dynamic balanced and asked the shop if they could shot peen my rods. The guy said that alloy rods are not shot peened unless they are going to be resized.
I think I'm going to hear other opinions on this.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 12/14/19 9:29 pm
Originally Posted by Nick H
I recently had my A65 crank dynamic balanced and asked the shop if they could shot peen my rods. The guy said that alloy rods are not shot peened unless they are going to be resized.
I think I'm going to hear other opinions on this.


New ones might not be but 70-73 ones were.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 01/13/20 1:26 am
Finally, an update! Got all the frame parts back from powder coating, and fitted the center stand to the frame, loaded it up onto the ramp:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Getting the center stand spring on was an almighty pain, until I read the service manual and used that method...who'da thunk it? Also, I forget I needed split pins for the center stand pivot, so I rednecked a split pin with a nail:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Although 'rednecking' may not be fair, it's not far from factory laughing. Proper split pins coming soon...

Here's the trial build of the engine. I haven't added the sealing goo between the halves yet, this was a trial build to check end float. Now happy with it, so final assembly should be coming soon:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The plan is to complete the bottom end rebuild and then put the engine into the frame whilst there's nothing else in it, on the basis that that's the easiest way to get the engine in and bolted down. Then I'll complete the engine rebuild in the frame. Wish me luck!

Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 01/26/20 1:42 am
Ok, so today was get the engine back into the frame day. It's much easier if you do this before the swing arm goes in. Start off with fiuxing the engine mounting plates to the motor:



[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]



Use a lifetime's supply of painters' tape on the frame:



[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]



And in she goes, with the help of a rubber hammer to center things and a heavy-ish hammer to knock the bolts through:



[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]



Pleased with this. No scratching of the newly-painted frame, and I'm now in a position to work on several parallel jobs if one job gets held up by something unforeseen
Posted By: BSA_WM20 Re: Barn Find Beeza - 01/26/20 7:01 am
The front chain guard does not appear to be there.
If it does not go in now, it never will.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 01/26/20 8:15 am
Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
The front chain guard does not appear to be there.
If it does not go in now, it never will.


They will go but it usually takes a couple of hours and a bit of swearing.

Did you remember to put the packing pieces in?(bottom engine bolt)
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 01/26/20 6:34 pm
Packing pieces? Chain guard? Oh Lordy...
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 01/26/20 7:29 pm
Packing pieces go between the motor and the lower frame rail, like thick washers. Too often they get missed out and the frame rails get pulled to the engine, creating a bow, or better a guitar string which will amplify any vibration. I made my own with washers but if you have a lathe you can also make them up to the right size.
Posted By: DMadigan Re: Barn Find Beeza - 01/26/20 7:31 pm
"packing pieces" = spacers. A plate attaches to the engine case on the inside of the chain cavity by two hex(?)screws.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 01/26/20 7:40 pm
"A plate attaches to the engine case on the inside of the chain cavity by two hex(?)screws."

The screws are 2BA , cheese heads I think, with locking washers. Same threads as the carb top covers and float bowls.
The lower mount packing piece is important, try a few 3/8" ID washers and see what combo fits best, if you dont fit it/ them then the frame gets sprung in by the bolt when tightened and amplifies engine vibration.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 01/26/20 9:24 pm
Thanks guys. I don't believe the bike came with them originally, I don't recall taking them off and have no photos of them. Same goes for the chain guard.

Seriously, thanks for pointing this out, otherwise I would have never known. ohno
Posted By: Beach Re: Barn Find Beeza - 01/26/20 9:52 pm
Looking good!!!
Posted By: BSA_WM20 Re: Barn Find Beeza - 01/27/20 3:07 am
That is what we are here for.
So you don't make the same mistake we all have before.

Now back to those barrels ,
I would send them out for an x-ray to make sure that the holes are at the root tip of the crack.
The positin go a relief hole is very important .
Too close and the crack passes right through it and you far away and the crack will divert around it.
Posted By: Mitch Re: Barn Find Beeza - 01/27/20 7:25 pm
dye penetrant or magnetic particle (Magnaflux) would work for that inspection.
Posted By: BSA_WM20 Re: Barn Find Beeza - 01/28/20 1:29 am
Mag partical would work because it can find the tip of the crack regardless of weather it has migrated to the surface in the hands of a good operator.
Dye penetrant can only find cracks that have reached the surface.
It could be a V shaped crack and the tip could be quite a few mm in advance of the spot when the crack makes the surface on either side.
Because it is a thin section casting there is a better than average chance it has grains perpendicular to the cylinder wall in which case it could be a chisel ended crack running between the grains.
An x-ray is the best way of testing the crack
the 2nd would be ultrasound but your hands are tied cause the grain size generally means using lower end refquencies and the ring down zone ends up being near 1/2 the thichness of the spiggot wall.
Now the gear has gotten a lot better since I played with it and you should be able to get a decent image using a compound transducer.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 03/19/20 12:56 am
I'm having trouble getting the new swingarm bushes into the swingarm. Even with heat to the swingarm and freezing the bushes, they are a damn tight fit. I'm thinking I need to give the job to someone with a hydraulic press, but is there any secret-squirrel method I'm missing?
Posted By: D.Bachtel Re: Barn Find Beeza - 03/19/20 2:49 am
Yes, proper installation will require a press. That is the smart squirrel method.

Don in Nipomo
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 03/19/20 2:23 pm
If you have a lathe , make a double diameter pushing piece ( drilled through centre for 1/2" + clearance) that fits the bore of the bush and the bore of the SA, mine drew in with a 1/2 " screwed rod through the middle and some nuts to squeeze it together.
Make sure the bore of the SA is shiny bright, de burred and check ID matches Bush OD. A whizz with some 100 grit wrapped round a stick in a power drill will help clean the SA bore .
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/07/20 6:32 pm
Moving on to the gearbox now. Here it is in original assembled form, shifting through the gears

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and here it is being stripped down:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

All looks good to me, but most things do when you don't know what you're doing...any thoughts from the experts on here?
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/07/20 7:17 pm
The most important thing is layshaft endfloat, this should be ~ 0.003"
Assemble just the lay shaft and its gears / spacers into the end plate and bolt up, check the end float with a clock gauge if you can, a crude test is a push / pull , 0.003" is just perceptible, if it clunks its too much, the spacing is set by the thick spacer that buts between the end gear and the drive side. or an accurate reading can me made by putting lead wire around the shaft between the end layshaft gear and the drive side . Bolt up to squish the lead, strip , measure lead thickness, subtract 0.003 , thats how thick the spacer should be.

Take an oil stone across the faces of all gears with dogs , stone off any raised burrs. This stop the gears trying to skip out as they enter the female dog holes. Same goes for female dog holes , stone off any raised burrs.

polish the face of the cam plate where the selector forks run. Polish the track of the cam plate plunger.

Cut two turns off the index plunger spring, if it hasnt been trimmed already. This makes the change a little lighter and more positive.
Posted By: NickL Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/07/20 11:01 pm
As Gavin says plus the selector forks should be a snug fit in the sliding gear slots,
One shown seems worn quite badly, probably due to the mainshaft nut coming loose.
You can radius the end of the plunger a little so it fits nicely into the cam plate notches
without digging into the plate. Cut a couple of turns off the spring as well.
Layshaft endfloat is all important.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/08/20 6:08 am
As Gavin says, I followed his advice and was happy with the result. The TS shim is usually always there but I think the DS shim often gets lost when people remove the box. The thickest one (is it 1/4” - 0.250”?” Goes towards the TS, then you make up the correct end float with what’s left, I ordered my shim from SRM (I don’t know if all vendors keep them in stock)

+1 to the trimming the spring and radius’ing the plunger, I read about the spring some time ago but thought mines fine and carried on, I don’t know how bad it was to start with but after about 5000 miles of my use the index plunger had worn a perfect groove through the tracks and it was no longer able to select. Fitted another plate and did the above mods and it’s been fine since. You loose some of the feeling of a definite “yes it’s in”, but it also feels a much slicker change and much better.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/09/20 4:38 pm
Thanks guys, all advice duly noted :-)
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/11/20 1:10 pm
FYI, BSA listed 3 options for the DS layshaft spacer/shim
42-3079, 0.113- 0.115"
42-3212 , 0.120 - 0.122"
42 3213, 0.127 - 0.129"

IME you will find extreme end float for two possible reasons, A/ The assembly line used a thin spacer to speed up assembly. no time to check endfloats on a piece work assembly line, so a non binding loose option would be chosen.
B/ Extreme wear

usually the 42-- 3213 option works out just right, at least so far I have been lucky and this worked.. The washer/ spacer/ shim is nothing special, could be fabbed from an over thick washer then lapped flat to size.
getting this right is well worth the bother, the box will be less clunky and gear engagement will be more positive.
Posted By: Nick H Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/12/20 12:48 am
Won't the position of the needle bearing on the end of the layshaft also determine end float?
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/12/20 10:47 am
Originally Posted by Nick H
Won't the position of the needle bearing on the end of the layshaft also determine end float?

The depth of gearbox face plate to the milled face for the bearing differs case for case.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/12/20 8:56 pm
Thanks again guys. I just put the gears back on the timing side:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Looks to me like I dun it right, any thoughts?
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/12/20 9:58 pm
Went onto the install of the SRM oil pump, which was pretty straightforward. It came with its own worm drive, lock washer and nut:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I had to use a little Hondabond on the gasket to keep it in place, and a little grease on the ball bearing likewise:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: NickL Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/12/20 10:57 pm
While it's not all assembled you may wish to remove the bloody silly rear chain oiler as well.
Or at least blank it off.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/12/20 11:17 pm
That's a good point. I intend to use a modern chain oiler (I use Tutoro for no good reason, but they do work well) so I'll get rid of the built-in leak. I'm sure there will be others.
Posted By: NickL Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/12/20 11:21 pm
Plus fit the late type or triumph oil pressure relief valve, the female part of an early beezer one is in the cases.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/13/20 8:16 am
Final bit of fun today was putting back the rotor spacer and seal:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Clutch door:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/13/20 11:02 pm
OK guys, I have a problem I need some advice on. I have stripped down the clutch basket and it is as rough as a rough thing:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

See all the gouging on the sides? How bad is that, in old-BSA terms? Par for the course, good, bad?

Also, two of the three bolts that hold the cush rubber cover in place are snapped off:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I'm trying to use a left-handed drill and extractor but am making little progress. I'd welcome any advice here.
Posted By: kevin Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/14/20 12:21 am
ive never seen that.

normally the slots are scalloped from the plates digging in under load. you can usually file them smooth again once or twice before the hub is junk.

but the grooves on the outside are odd, as if th wrong plates were in there, with holes too big for the hub.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/14/20 1:33 am
Well, the plates that came with the bike are in good condition, so the damage probably happened earlier in its life. I believe the bike was raced, and judging from some of the marks inside the drive side crankcase the main chain was not very tight and it would not surprise me if someone put in some 'close enough' clutch plates too. The clutch and transmission are the worst things that have come out of the rebuild so far
Posted By: quinten Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/14/20 2:00 am
i would buy a new clutch hub ... $152 to 165 USD.

half the clutch plates dogs ride in the hub-slots ... but those extra grooves may also cause the plates to hang up and
make for some sticky clutch action .

the hub grooves may have been made by a foreign object or two ... found or not .
or worn hub rubbers ,
that allowed the hub to skew out of parallel under load .
Posted By: kevin Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/14/20 2:19 am
yes. just get a new one and forget the broken screws

and keep the primary chain a bit tighter than the DPO. for the chain to grind out the front primary like that it had to be obscenely loose.

or likelier oversize
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/14/20 2:22 am
Yep, that's what I'm thinking
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/14/20 8:38 am
Plus 1 to a new hub. Rebuilding these in many cases isn’t worth it. The cost of buying the parts come to more than a new one as the plates wear and the rubbers shrink/harden with oil and time also.

You also don’t have to butcher a clutch plate, and a centre hub to make a tool that allows you to assemble the hub with new rubbers.

Too add, I’ve never looked but later on they went to through bolts to hold these together. If you have the option, get the ones with straight through bolts. I believe the little counter sunk screws had a habit of breaking.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/14/20 8:44 am
A note on the pump, the required torque is 7 ft/lb from memory. Using screws they will want to come loose unless you lock-tite them or use Lock wire. Mine came with cap screws so I drilled and lock wired mine as the screws slackened off over time. I’d also remove the spring washers and use flat or star/serrated washers.

If the pump is screwed up too tightly, you risk distorting the body and shortening its life, then you’ll join the crowd who call their pumps crap.... when their pumps are actually really good!

HTH
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/14/20 5:57 pm
Thanks Allen, I have ordered a new hub, and I'll loctite the pump bolts
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/19/20 1:14 am
Shiny new shock-absorber hub arrived from CBS, with straight-though screws!


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Got my 20 ball-bearings in a (circular) row:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and on she goes!
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/19/20 1:20 am
Then got onto reassembling the gearbox, with all new bearings and selector forks:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Got the whole thing assembled and was able to select all gears nicely. My only problem with reassembly is the gear selector detent plunger and spring. It sticks out a long way when the gearbox is not inserted


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and it's making it difficult for me to insert the gearbox. Is there a trick to this part?
Posted By: NickL Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/19/20 2:09 am
you've got the spring in the selector rod hole.
It goes in the angled hole on the right.
You can cut a couple of turns off the spring and radius the plunger pin a little.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/19/20 2:37 am
D'oh! Thank you!
Posted By: NickL Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/19/20 4:04 am
When you put the box cassette in go easy and if you rote the mainshaft slightly
it will push home. A little jiggling to get the selector rod in and you're away.....
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/19/20 10:38 pm
I'm a bit embarrassed by this (as if putting my plunger in the wrong hole wasn't embarrassing enough), but I seem to have a bit left over:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Does anyone recognise this grub screw and where it goes?
Posted By: MarcB Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/19/20 11:30 pm
Could it be this: http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/802967/threaded-hole-leaking
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/20/20 2:15 am
Yes, that's it exactly, thanks. It goes here:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Only problem is, I need to remove the engine from the frame (again!) to replace it. Aarrgggh!
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/20/20 6:53 am
You might want to wipe a cotton bud with some gasoline on the tip around that hole, it looks like it’s full of crud.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/20/20 5:48 pm
Yes indeed.
Posted By: NickL Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/21/20 6:05 am
You don't have to pull the engine out, you can start the plug with your fingers and just cut an allen key down a bit
to nip it up or use a ball headed key, it should go.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/21/20 9:21 am
Just a thought, if your missing that one there, are you missing the other one also? It’s a few inches further back.
Posted By: Danam Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/21/20 4:41 pm
There are 2 sets screws, both underneath the case on the timing side, near the PRV. You won't get an allen wrench in there, sorry!

btw your kick start ratchet gear looks pretty worn
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/21/20 5:45 pm
Yep, I ut the other one back in but for some reason just missed that one. I took the engine out of the frame, fixed it, and also noticed an oilway that was blcoked by grit from cleaning, that I had also missed. Sheesh, I'm not so good at this stuff. Anyway, now all fixed.

Yes, I'm tempted to replace the kickstart ratchet.
Posted By: chaterlea25 Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/21/20 10:14 pm
Hi
If you missed one oilway what about the rest of them
Blasting media is great at wrecking engines !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

John
Posted By: Phil in Germany Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/22/20 4:11 pm
+1 on John's comment on blasting media. eek

I also think that the kickstart ratchet should be renewed.
Good luck with buying a proper one. I have been recently supplied with two of them (IIRC made by MCA :mad), both were not to the original dimensions bore-wise and bushes had to be tailormade to suit the bores.

I hope pattern parts' quality is better on your side of the pond.


Cheers!

Ph.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/22/20 6:00 pm
My kickstart ratchet looks like that. works fine.
How did you get on shimming the layshaft?
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/22/20 6:53 pm
Slowly. I've ordered some thicker thrust washers and they should arrive soon.

I did do (I thought) a thorough clean of all me orifices but missed one entirely. The others are clean as the proverbial.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/26/20 2:49 am
Still waiting for the larger thrust washer so I can reinstall the gearbox, so I decided to press on with the cylinder block

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Installed the inlet cam and rockers:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Now just waiting for a tap to arrive to I can clear one of the threads for the cylinder head nuts prior to installing it
Posted By: triton thrasher Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/26/20 9:08 am
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I don’t like those circlips with long tails.
Posted By: marinatlas Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/26/20 9:17 am
Me too.......like in Norton with the JCC pistons , they are prone to fail , not for me I put real seager clips.......!
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/26/20 9:29 am
I was looking more at the scuffs and thread marks on the pistons.

What is the grey stuff on the gasket?
Posted By: gunner Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/26/20 11:48 am
Looks like the grey stuff on the gasket maybe some kind of gasket sealer?

I agree with the comments about the circlips, they look a bit crude and loose, maybe a failure point in future.

Searching on Google I found a type of circlip made my Carillo called Kranm Lox, see This Link, the tool comes complete with a special installation tool.

Interesting video about these circlips Here

These circlips are listed on page 185 in the Carillo catalogue located Here, so I assume you can order them from your local Carillo dealer or direct.
Posted By: Cyborg Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/26/20 1:27 pm
While you are waiting, that divot in the cylinder head ( valve cover mating surface) should be fixed or it will leak.
Which oil passageway was blocked with blasting media? Just wondering how you would safely and completely clean that out on assembled cases. Unfortunately it doesn’t take much of that stuff to destroy an engine.

https://i.imgur.com/JZQQyKe.jpg
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/26/20 7:54 pm
They grey stuff is Hondabond. Yep, the divot's on the list...
Posted By: chaterlea25 Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/26/20 9:41 pm
Hi
In the photo of the piston that (excuse for a) circlip is ready to make a bid for freedom
I would go back and replace them with plain wire circlips
Seeger circlips should not be fitted to pistons designed for wire circlips, another recipe for disaster

John
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/26/20 9:47 pm
The circlips are all seated well in their grooves and can rotate if pushed around with a screwdriver. I tried pulling the ends with needle-nosed pliers to see if the circlip wanted to jump and it seemed well seated.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/26/20 10:15 pm
I’ve used those types of circlips many times with no problems. What I would do though is not leave the end of the circlip within the open area, ie fit it so it resembles the letter C and both ends of the clip are then fully supported.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/27/20 9:59 am
i think its important to install circlips with the open ends at the cutout, the worst way is to install then so they look like a C, they should look like an omega sign with the gap at the bottom, if installed like a C so the ends are at 90 degrees to the axis of travel then the accel, decel of the piston at each end of the stroke can cause the clip ends to move.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/27/20 11:19 am
Good point Gavin, I’ve always made sure that the ends of the clip are not within the open part of the piston, I’ve never had an issue but will do it this way from now on.
Posted By: gunner Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/27/20 12:56 pm
To me it looks like the circlip wire is too thick and they are not fully seating in the piston recess. I would try fitting some circlips with thinner wire and see if they seat any better.
Posted By: MarcB Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/27/20 1:06 pm
On your head, two things I would double check:
  • The spring washers on the inlet shaft: check that it isn't caught on the nut side, and that it's still springing. Hard to tell in the pics but it has a tendency to get caught by the grooves in the shaft and end up squished against the final washer.
  • Looks like the rocker cover studs were replaced with threaded rod (one is missing). Take a good look at the front-center stud hole. It appears to be stripped at the top. This is a tough place to fix as there isn't a ton of meat to drill for an insert.


Lastly, I'm surprised no one mentioned the oil that appears to have been added to the rings prior to the ring compressors going on.
Posted By: Cyborg Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/27/20 3:46 pm
Originally Posted by MarcB
Lastly, I'm surprised no one mentioned the oil that appears to have been added to the rings prior to the ring compressors going on.


Are you advocating no oil?

These two videos are listed on Grumpy's Garage which is usually a decent source of information on engine assembly.


Starts around 2:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=507&v=QloJ3kjsAyY&feature=emb_logo

Starts around 2:40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs7b_oqgqh8&feature=emb_logo
Posted By: triton thrasher Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/27/20 3:51 pm
Originally Posted by marinatlas
Me too.......like in Norton with the JCC pistons , they are prone to fail , not for me I put real seager clips.......!

The grooves on those BSA pistons will be round-bottomed, so not suitable for Seager circlips.

Better wire circlips with no tails are available.
Posted By: triton thrasher Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/27/20 3:53 pm
Originally Posted by Cyborg
Originally Posted by MarcB
Lastly, I'm surprised no one mentioned the oil that appears to have been added to the rings prior to the ring compressors going on.


Are you advocating no oil?

I’ll advocate no oil on the rings.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/27/20 3:59 pm
So will I
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/27/20 6:26 pm
Boy, lots of thoughts here guys, thanks!

You're right about the front middle rocker cover mount. Sharp eyes there. The thread looks to have gone entirely. Not sure what I'll do about that yet.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/27/20 10:09 pm
I’ve found several that didn’t have any thread at the top of that mount, the rocker box cover doesn’t touch the mount at this
Point and in reality it’s probably a waste of time it being there, tightening the bolt/nut too tight will distort the box, not tight enough and it will leak past it. A stud in this hole is what is needed, most likely it will thread down all the way to the bottom. If it won’t.... fit a helicoil.
Posted By: gunner Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/27/20 11:05 pm
My 1968 Firebird uses an engine steady which mounts directly to the cylinder centre front hole, the other end secures to the frame somewhere near the Zenor.

Will have to check whether it's secured via a stud in the cylinder head or maybe a through bolt?
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/27/20 11:23 pm
Check the threaded rods, I hesitate to call them studs, that are fitted for rocker cover fasteners with a thread pitch gauge, , once you know the tpi, you can decide what do do, if its 26 tpi ( common for 1/4 cycle or BSF) or, 20 tpi ( UNC or Whitworth), or 28 tpi ( UNF),.
Most of the bottom of the motor is 1970, , theres no saying what exact year the head is.
Its possible that in 1970 it had UNC threads, more likely its earlier and has 26 tpi, or possible some ruff type forced whatever was to hand into play.
The original set up was a stud with a plain shoulder, IIRC the end buried in the head is 1/4 BSF / 26 tpi. Once you know what it is , get a helicoil kit and fix any that look poorly.
If you go for new studs , you will also need the wee domed nuts for the two centre fasteners,, these should be fitted with fiber washers or dowty seals or Al washers otherwise oil will leak .
Posted By: linker48x Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/27/20 11:23 pm
just to mention, in case a newby comes along with an old one:

http://gabma.us/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/cranking_old.pdf
Posted By: gunner Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/27/20 11:34 pm
Regarding the use of oil when fitting pistons and first running there are a couple of factors to consider which arent fully discussed in the videos:-
- BSA;s and other bikes of the era used single piece cast iron oil control rings, these rings are quite difficult to bed in and require a coarse cylinder hone somewhere between 150-180. Ideally, they require little if any oil lubrication whilst assembling.
- the first startup should be done with the bike fully prepared for immediate rinding. Once on the open road the bike should be run fairly hard and ideally ridden up a few steep hills in second gear a few times. This activity causes high cylinder pressure and helps the rings bed in against the coarse cylinder hone.
- the oil will soon find it way around rings and protect the cylinder following the use of a near-dry assembly technique
- if done correctly. the results of this run-in technique are well-bedded rings, good compression and no smoke.
- I recommend a basic mineral oil intended for motorcycles or classic cars, something like Silkoline Silkolibe 20w50.

The above is my experience on BSA B44;s & A65;s all running cast iron single piece oil control rings which come with EMGO or JCC pistons.

If you are running pistons with three-piece oil control rings (e.g. Hastings, Total Seal etc.) then the story is a bit different and follow their instructions.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/28/20 1:10 am
Thanks again for all the suggestions guys, it's really helpful.

I received the new thrust washers for the gearbox today so I assembled that and reinstalled it

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The gearbox would change gears relatively easily in the rebuilt box, it just needed a little help by turning the gears and it went snickety-snick through all positions

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

To assemble it in the engine I had to wiggle the sprocket to get the top gear to engage on the shaft ok, and it pushed onto the studs, with maybe 2mm distance left to be taken up by the nuts

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The gearbox rotates smoothly when I turn the output sprocket, and the layshaft endfloat is just barely perceptible. I can feel it move very slightly on a push/pull, right on the limits of what I can detect by hand. I don't have a dial gauge to check it with.

My biggest concern in that the gearshift seems locked. I cannot now change gears by rotating the gears and pulling up or down on the gearshift camplate. I even used a rubber hammer to see if that would nudge it, but it seems locked in place as determined by hand touch. I have not tried anything heavier than gentle pulls and taps with the rubber hammer. Does that sound right, or is it bring it out and do it again time?
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/28/20 1:20 am
Are you spinning the gearbox sprocket as well?, back off the casette cover nuts a cuppla turns, see if that helps, it may just be a little stiff, if it locks up solid as the nuts are retightened something is not right.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/28/20 1:48 am
Thanks Gavin. I tried backing off the nuts as per your suggestion, and the gearchange is still solid. I think it's not right, and I need to take the box back out
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/28/20 2:42 am
I pulled the box and I think the problem is the spring/plunger that fits in the gearchange detent. It seems to be able to stick solidly sometimes. I'll need to clean out the hole and polish my plunger, as they say.
Posted By: gunner Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/28/20 8:02 am
Check the cam plate for any rough areas where it touches the plunger and polish out, the same applies to the selector grooves.

The selector forks are different but I think you have them fitted correctly, the layshaft fork is identified by the roller being in line with the fork, the main shaft fork has an offset roller.

Looks like you have the gears set in 4th gear, might be worth setting them neutral and seeing if that helps.

See below for how the gears are set in neutral.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/28/20 8:29 am
Round the end of the plunger off, they still work but it stops them carving a groove in the cam plate. Also take 2 turns off the spring.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/28/20 9:51 am
The OP has been told to take 2 turns off at least 3 times now, if he carries on there wont be any spring left.
Dirt in the oil ways, dirt in the plunger hole,dirt in the cam plate fan windows, snot looking good, how were the cases cleaned ,also corrosion damage to the selector fork guide rod ( I would have replaced that) ?.
All motor and gearbox internals should be squeaky clean before reassembly, rinsed at least twice in your favourite solvent, then lubed on assembly.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/28/20 5:06 pm
Have a good look at the cam plate track that the plunger engages against, check it has no raised burrs that can catch the nose of the plunger.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/28/20 6:22 pm
Yep, there's no doubt that I'm a noob at this stuff. I could pretend to not make mistakes of course, but where's the fun in that?

I did take two turns of the spring, BTW. I do take the advice I get here seriously. Thanks for all your help guys!
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/28/20 11:14 pm
Its a bit late now , but , David Drew , sells wonderful ball bearing ended cam plate plungers that are a Very good Thing, he sells on e bay. They are by no means essential.

Hopefully a good clean will sort it, assembling the cassette is fairly straightforward, hold shims in place with grease, put the cam plate in 2nd or the only way it will pass through, then wiggle till the selector fork spindle enter, but you know that . Put a drool of gear oil EP 90 over the slidy bits first.
I have never changed the needle rollers out in my gearbox, Timkens, good stuff, if you have they had better be fitted so they dont bind any shafts.
Posted By: Mark Z Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/29/20 2:59 am
I've found that shifting by hand takes a good hard push or pull on the camplate with a glove on, and this is WHILE nudging the rear wheel. A mallet does not impart the right sort of impetus.

I've never made modifications to either of my A65 gearboxes, a la rounding the plunger or shortening the spring, and I find the shifting acceptable, that is, as long as the final drive chain is properly adjusted and lubricated. That's not to say it couldn't be improved, it just never occurred to me to do that until I read this thread.

Is there oil in the gearbox?
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/29/20 8:30 am
Mark, the rounding of the plunger isn’t to improve shifting, I was always ignorant to the turning 2 coils off etc as my box always was positive and crisp. Then one day it started jumping out of gear. When I took the box out I noticed the plunger had cut a groove into the cam plate.

I believe Triumph later on rounded their plungers, I did the same on mine, or rather took the sharp point off the end, put in another used cam plate and carried on. It’s been fine since.
Posted By: DMadigan Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/29/20 2:53 pm
I believe DD uses a captured ball in the plunger. I modified one this way:
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
Roller on a hardened pin. Obviously on an A65 it is a little trickier to get the cam plate engaged in the slot than a triple but the plunger could be put in after the gears through the hole on the drive side.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/29/20 3:00 pm
is there enough room to put it through the drive side once the cases are bolted together Dave?
Posted By: DMadigan Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/29/20 5:58 pm
If the overall length were about 1" it would fit. I was thinking of before the cases were bolted together.
Posted By: Mark Z Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/29/20 9:31 pm
Originally Posted by Allan G
Mark, the rounding of the plunger isn’t to improve shifting, I was always ignorant to the turning 2 coils off etc as my box always was positive and crisp. Then one day it started jumping out of gear. When I took the box out I noticed the plunger had cut a groove into the cam plate.

I believe Triumph later on rounded their plungers, I did the same on mine, or rather took the sharp point off the end, put in another used cam plate and carried on. It’s been fine since.

I see; the rounding off of the plunger is to keep it from wearing on the camplate.

But I was addressing Psychopasta's complaint that the tranny was shifting very stiffly, which I'm trying to gauge as normal or not. That is, it IS hard to shift by pushing or pulling on the camplate, but how hard?

And, to repeat my question for Psychopasta, which is probably more important than the rest of my blather, is there oil in the gearbox? Nothing is going to happen very easily in there without ample lubrication.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/29/20 11:47 pm
When test fitting expect the cam plate to move easily with the cassette nuts backed of a few turns

when tightened up, I fit the quadrant loosely and use it to drive the cam plate with the gear pedal fitted. This allows you to observe how the plungers engage in the windows, watch for chips on the lips of the plungers , reject anything dodgy, rounded windows are OK up to a certain point. You can learn a lot from this, any change that is stubborn should be investigated, the two sliding gears which are moved by the selector forks take the most beating, , you will find that the third to 4 th change is a longer sweep, and that 3rd to 2nd has most going on.
With a well prepared cam plate it should only need a light touch to move through the gears.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/30/20 3:12 am
Hey guys,

Well, I did notice a gouge in the wall of the casing:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

It doesn't feel very much but I was able to smooth it down and install the plunger again:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I cleaned out the hole and I oiled the plunger. I'm at a bit of a loss for a suitable simile, but it moves very smoothly. The camplate tracking looks good:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and I have become adept at jiggling the gearbox in and out now. I can get it to rest against the case with only a little spring force coming from the plunger trying to push the box out:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

MarkZ, to your point I have not filled the gearbox with oil at this point, but the gears are slippy with lube, and with the gearbox outside the bike I can change gears smoothly. Where I am now is that I can, just about, get the gears to change when I turn the output sprocket and apply quite a lot of force. Certainly not the 'light touch to move through the gears' that Gavin describes. Endshaft endfloat can be detected, just, but I don't have an accurate measurement of it. Having removed and reassembled the gearbox many times, I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to get it changing smoother at this point. Maybe it needs the vibration of the engine to help it move freely :-)
Posted By: NickL Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/30/20 4:52 am
I recently put one together with a late stepped camplate, this fouled the bottom of the case when top gear was selected.
Rather annoying really as it didn't show up immediately, only when the bike was ridden hard it would sometimes jump out of top gear.

Given that there were about 4 or 5 vesions of the camplate with varying thicknesses etc it would be worth putting some blue on your one
and just putting the end plate in on it's own, then moving the camplate up and down.
One step at a time,then try the mainshaft+cluster, then the layshaft on it's own etc etc.. i Know it's laborious but it's worth it.
Posted By: Ola Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/30/20 12:58 pm
The lock tabs for your ratchet nut need some attention.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/30/20 6:05 pm
Originally Posted by Ola
The lock tabs for your ratchet nut need some attention.
Good point , if this nut is loose the change becomes v difficult.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/30/20 6:53 pm
Yes, I haven't torqued the nut fully yet.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/30/20 7:01 pm
Nick, I wasn't aware there were different thicknesses of camplate. Do you recall what the variation in thickness is? I always thought the camplate was a tight fit in its slot.
Posted By: MarcB Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/30/20 8:06 pm
A bit of reading: http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=358818

There is no interchanging the wrong cam plate with any given cover plate. Given that you have a '70 motor, you appear to have the correct plate.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 04/30/20 10:42 pm
Some thoughts.
The grease isnt helping, remove it and use EP 90.
Have you replaced anything in the gearbox? If you have look there first.
Until the main shaft/ kick rachet nut is tight all bets are off, this must be tight enough to set the correct spacings for the gears to slide/ clear/ mesh.
might be a good idea to fit the chain , and rear wheel, with brake, this helps when tightening the sprocket and spinning the box.
A 12 " adjustable spanner/ wrench can be used on the flats of the gear change quadrant to help move the cam plate, with the nuts up tight it will not move easily / at all by hand . I regret using the phrase " light" earlier.
Make sure all shims are in the correct positions, use diagram B30 in the manual, I have forgotten to fit the spacer on the timing side end of the mainshaft before. This spacer is easily shed from the cluster when its been stripped and its very easy to misplace.

Heres a good thing to try.
Assemble the cassette with no index plunger and spring. , does it engage all easily, obviously there is no detent but its easy to feel what going on. If thats OK , assemble with the plunger and spring, initial stiffness will settle in with use.
All tests should be done with rotating the gearbox sprocket,to simulate actual working conditions, spinning the input shaft should not be needed.Its nigh on impossible to judge how the box is working with out the chain and wheel spinning it.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/01/20 12:44 am
Thanks Gavin I'll try all of those tomorrow.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/03/20 9:06 pm
Good news!

I rebuild the gearbox again, after removing all grease and replacing with a small amount of gearbox oil. Also torqued down the kickstart ratchet bolt and locked the tab washer.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Reinserted gearbox without the plunger, and all was well. Reinserted gearbox with plunger, and it was very stiff again. Then assembled gear change mech and shifter pedal and was able to shift normally. It felt pretty snickety-snick, if I may be use the technical term.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Many thanks to all, especially Gavin, for much help!
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/03/20 10:51 pm
Snickety snick is exactly right, well done.
One last job to get the change / gear finished.
Setting the return spring bias.
Leave the change quadrant in its place.
Temporarily fit the timing chest, no need for a gasket, a few screws will do,
now fit the part i call the " grannies tooth", this sits over the flats on the change shaft and engages with the return spring and is locked in position by a very small socket head grub screw
.
NB, Once you have made the following adjustment , never fiddle with it again.
The return spring is mounted on an eccentric, to adjust the spring slacken the centre mount nut and twist the spring mount cup.
By now you should be familiar with spinning the wheel and changing through the box, if the spring is set correctly the change will not baulk and be clean , both up and down the box.
Try it out, if the change baulks and will not move either up or down, or needs a double push or waggle, look at the spring, twist it either way, note the grannies tooth is more or less biased by this.
The boxes I have worked on all seem to be most critical on the 3rd to 2nd down change, if it is going to baulk its usually here.
Now try it again, if its better , yay, if its worse then twist to bias the other way.
Sometimes the mount cup is not eccentric enough, occasionally they are drilled to close to centre, if you twist it and nothing changes at the spring then file the hole to one side with a round file to get the offset .

This took longer to type than the actual test takes. Ones you have the sweet spot its good to go, a bit of loctite on the spring mount nut will keep it sweet, never touch it again.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/03/20 11:40 pm
Thanks Gavin, will try that tomorrow. Right now I'm refitting the clutch and alternator. Got everything done (photos to follow) and went for the 'final thing', fitting the drive chain tensioner. Turns out that was the first thing I should have done, as you can't get the bolt in place with the chain already there. So its all coming off again.

Arsebiscuits! Why does it never fall jammy side up?
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/04/20 2:57 am
Ok. Rule #1, don't do as I do, do as I say. Fit the bloody drive chain tensioner BEFORE doing anything else on the drive side:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

THEN offer up the clutch and alternator drives:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

This picture shows it done without the chain tensioner...

Alternator and rotor went back on easily. I reinstalled the clutch plates, and then fitted the SRM clutch cover. This little doobrey fits inside the clutch rod hole:


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Then pop on the clutch cover

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and fit the springs and thimbles, with the screws:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I tightened the heads until the screw was just proud of the screwhead. Does it need anymore than this?

Last thing to do is set the clutch adjuster. Screw it in until it connects the bearing, and then retract it a full turn, and set the locknut:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Really nice to use metric tools again: if an M3 isn't big enough, try an M4. None of this 11/32nds, what's next after that hassle.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/04/20 6:58 am
Looking good! A quick tip though Is to turn the alternator rotor the other way around. As the strobe timing marks are on the other side. thumbsup

Some if your clutch adjusting nuts look sunk beneath the top of the cup? You want to aim for the top of the screw head being in line with the base of the flat, screwing in further will apply more pressure and weight to the lever.

Also adjust your clutch pushrod when you’ve finished and got the inner and outer cover in place. You can then screw the rod until the arm just touches the inside of the case, giving you maximum lift. You should find that the adaptor piece that came with the lifting plate doesn’t touch the mainshaft, if it does then as the clutch settles, you will have no room for re adjustment later on
Posted By: NickL Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/04/20 7:07 am
Beat me to it Allan....................
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/04/20 9:36 am
its a 1970 , hasnt got the clutch op arm, it has the 3 ball ramp.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/04/20 11:34 am
Originally Posted by gavin eisler
its a 1970 , hasnt got the clutch op arm, it has the 3 ball ramp.


Was looking at that early barrel with 5/16 nuts and assumed it was a 69’
Posted By: htown Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/04/20 4:39 pm
My 70 didn't have an eccentric spring cup but had a perfectly round one. I tried fitting an eccentric one and it didn't work at all. Refitting the round one restored operation.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/04/20 5:59 pm
On the other side, the timing cover came off easily
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
and looks fine at first glance. I pulled out the bodged wiring loom, ignition coils and mounting brackets, and removed all the oil lines from the tank. Then removed the screws holding the toolholder in:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Both the oil tank and toolholder are now free, but will not come out until I remove the rear fender I think. Then, 'twas beer o'clock and tools were downed for the day

[/quote]

Here we see a 1970 onwards timing chest with the grannies tooth engaged in the return spring mounted on the maybe eccentric maybe not. Whats missing is the small tab which holds the points wires up from the clutch mech, make sure you fit one and make sure the wires are up not down,.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/04/20 6:49 pm
I hadn’t seen that post Gavin but thanks for sharing. The OP would be best changing those low tension wires. Looking at the case it looks to be Oif type as it has the extra screw position at 7 o clock to the gear quadrant shaft, I don’t believe the 70 has that. Like you say it will most likely have the eccentric adjuster because of this.


Originally Posted by htown
My 70 didn't have an eccentric spring cup but had a perfectly round one. I tried fitting an eccentric one and it didn't work at all. Refitting the round one restored operation.

You might find adjusting the position of the peg that the spring tangs rest on will make a big difference. If you can warm the case you can rotate it but also filing the flat will help. As long as the spring is a touch fit to both the grannies tooth (like that term) and the peg you will have good engagement.
Posted By: gunner Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/04/20 8:01 pm
Quote
Some if your clutch adjusting nuts look sunk beneath the top of the cup? You want to aim for the top of the screw head being in line with the base of the flat, screwing in further will apply more pressure and weight to the lever.

I agree with Allen and the way I usually adjust the springs is to screw them in until the springs are coil bound and then back off the adjusters a couple of turns so that when the handlebar clutch lever pulled in and Kickstarter used, the clutch spins freely. You might need to screw the adjusters in or out accordingly but the idea is to get max spring pressure and minimum drag. It's probably best to err on the side of a bit too much much free play as in the real world these clutches can drag a bit when cold.
Posted By: Adam M. Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/04/20 9:25 pm
Not only that, but when you kick a bike with clutch engaged check if your clutch plates run straight and true, if not you have to make them adding or lessening pressure of individual. springs. This prevents clutch from dragging.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/04/20 10:27 pm
Fractional adjustment of the clutch springs is not possible, remember that,
start with the screws flush if you have a high spot , screw in one whole turn at the nearest screw.
One whole turn is when the pip on the screw head re engages with the spring tang.
Get it as close as you can, its Ok to have one looking weird , springs are not that close in length from new, if you buy three its not a great chance, buy six, pick the best three.
Posted By: MarcB Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/04/20 11:45 pm
Originally Posted by Allan G
Looking good! A quick tip though Is to turn the alternator rotor the other way around. As the strobe timing marks are on the other side. thumbsup
Also, you won't be able to slide the chain tensioner pad/shoe with the alternator stator in place.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/05/20 2:58 am
Hey Marc, keep up....that was yesterday's cockup! beerchug

Got it all done the right way round at last:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Timing marks where I can see 'em blush
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Bolts for the alternator are yet to arrive, I know they're missing. clap

Clutch adjusted adequately until I can get the cable on and the handlebars mounted:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I put the engine cover back on with just a few bolts. I had intended to get it polished and plated but that will have to wait until after the Great Shutdown:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I then just offered up the cases on the timing side to make sure everything worked as it should:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Tomorrow that stuff's going back on.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/08/20 1:42 am
So today I fitted the gasket on the timing side (needed a little trimming)

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and on she popped:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The kickstart spring seems 'good enough' but I'd welcome conformation as it just seems to sit there when the kickstart is not used. It does engage with the kickstart, and hence I think it's good enough, but would welcome comments. The timing cover is all screwed down now and I put the outer cover on with just one bolt for now:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Mark Z Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/08/20 2:04 am
The plate holding the kickstart spring needs to be turned 180 degrees counter-clockwise, such that there's tension on the spring even when the lever is not being depressed.

There have been numerous discussions on how to do this; my method is to don a pair of heavy-duty suede welding gloves and twist it by hand. I expect others will offer alternative methods.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/08/20 2:31 am
Sounds like a plan, thanks
Posted By: gunner Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/08/20 6:49 am
Looking good, a couple of thoughts whilst the covers are off:-
- might be worth polishing the outer cover before its installed, looks like its been blasted which will make it harder to polish so start with 400 wet & dry paper, working up to 2000 paper, then use metal polish.
- the oil pump should be primed, one way is to install the tank and oil lines and spin the pump using a cordless drill on the tacho shaft, see explanation on the E&V site Here
- I agree with the comments about the kickstart spring, the plate should be reversed and spring turned 180 degrees so that there is tension on the plate. It can be a bugger to install until you get the hang of it.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/08/20 9:20 am
Tang is correct way round, on some cases it will bind on the inside of the outer cover if it faces outward.

There’s some crap springs on the market, I only buy mine from SRM now as they are the only ones which are actually springs and not just coiled wire. If it looks shiny and plated the. Most likely it isn’t spring wire, the wire takes the shortest path and bends then jams up the kick start.

The locating plate also wants to be a secure fit on the kickstart shaft, I’ve found some that aren’t. I don’t know if they have been filed or just wear and tear but the plate should be a firm fit.

Also fit some fresh screws (even Allen screws) on your points plate. You’ll be adjusting that several times and those screw heads already look a little chewed up.

There also wants to be a screw under the MCD number on the inner cover, whilst it’s not recessed it’s because there should be the points wire clip underneath it as Gavin mentioned.
Posted By: Danam Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/08/20 4:24 pm
Great photographs!! This is going to be gold for every future rebuild, thanks!
Posted By: Adam M. Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/08/20 4:44 pm
You are going too fast with this build, or I'm visiting this thread not often enough. Anyway as gunner wrote now is the time to prime your oil system, but before that was a great moment to install a Norton type oil filter on your return line hanging from those rear engine mounting plates.
Saves you a few white hairs during a first start, but also proper oil filter is crucial for these engines if you plan to ride your bike.
Next thing to check is a stator / rotor clearance which I don;t remember exactly how big.should be, but you should be able to go around your rotor with a piece of paper between them without any problem.
+1 about pictures.
Posted By: htown Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/08/20 5:57 pm
Ten thou clearance between rotor and stator. Brass feeler gauges won't get stuck.
Posted By: Ola Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/08/20 6:45 pm
Clutch spring adjusters looks rather tight to me. Recommended starting point is with the tip of the bolt flush with bottom of the screw driver groove. It is easy to tighten later, not so easy to slacken. Regarding the mentioned rotor/stator clearance, how can that be adjusted? Bending the stator bolts won't do any good. The only thing I can think of, is to enlarge the bolt holes to shift the stator sideways.
Regards
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/08/20 6:56 pm
Thank you all very much for your comments. I'll take them all on board. I did check the stator clearance and it was OK, but as Ola notes I have no idea what you do if it's not OK, there's no adjustment I can see. I'll loosen the clutch bolts, and take all other advice.

I don't know about fast progress mind beerchug. I've had many mad , several blush , and at least three facepalm moments. More to come, I'm sure.
Posted By: Jon W. Whitley Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/08/20 11:37 pm
Here's what your kickstart return spring should look like, when it's properly set up.

Attached picture BSA #31.jpg
Attached picture BSA #29.jpg
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/08/20 11:48 pm
Hey Jon, Thanks!
Posted By: Jon W. Whitley Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/09/20 1:56 pm
Originally Posted by Psychopasta
Hey Jon, Thanks!


You are welcome. Also, I have my trusty Motion Pro heavy duty spring hook/puller, which makes this a super easy task, Part No. 08-0127.

Attached picture BSA #32.jpg
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/09/20 9:29 pm
Replaced all the studs in the rocker assembly:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The one at the front that looked like it has no threads actually does have threads but lower down in the hole, it's a clearance size at the top. Don't know if that's original or not.

Acorn nuts in place to prevent me losing them crazy
Posted By: gunner Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/09/20 9:39 pm
Just a quick note to mention that the rocker spindle spring washers go on the outer side which I guess is why the right hand inlet rocker appears offset from the valve centre.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/09/20 9:59 pm
Thanks Gunner! I'll fix that now.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/09/20 11:45 pm
In order from DS to TS, Thrust Washer, Spring W, rocker, TW , Centre boss, TW, Rocker, Spring W , last thrust washer which is a smaller diameter than the other 3.
looks like you have a washer missing as well as the order mixed up. Nice new studs. The dome nuts need sealing washers.
see fig B3 on page B6 for the rocker assembly.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/10/20 1:36 am
OK chaps, here it is the right way round:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

All washers correct and in place sir!

I took off the inner timing cover to fix the kickstand spring properly. I had a spare gasket. This time, I fitted the kickstart ratchet into the cover, and then fitted the washer and spring. I then used a small pipe wrench to turn the spring to tension

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Little bit of jiggling to get the kickstart ratchet to engage the gear pinion and in it went. Remove the wrench and everything stays in place:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Pleased with that. the kickstart lever is under tension at all times. Then I disassembled the clutch puller mechanism in the outer timing cover, and greased everything and rebuilt it:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Job's a good 'un. Unless it's not. In which case, I do it again.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/10/20 1:43 am
There should be a small ball bearing in the upstanding part of the clutch op mechanism, this stops the push rod binding in the cup, you will have to trim the push rod, there should be instructions with the new pressure plate, once you have the correct length the pressure plate adjuster screw should not protrude more than one thread from the locknut. Heat the trimmed end of the push rod to cherry red and plunge cool in oil, just the tip or you will make the rod snappy.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/10/20 2:03 am
Yep, I'm reading the SRM instructions even as we speak beerchug
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/10/20 7:31 am
That spring is too tight or is the wrong spring. The leg closest to the plate is already starting to take a short cut. It’ll do this if there is too much tension on the spring or if it’s the wrong material (not spring steel) when you use the kick starter that leg behind will jam up.

If you back the plate off half a turn and the kick start lever is sloppy then you have the wrong kind of spring.

You’ve also put teeth marks on the kickstart shaft which might bind on the case when it’s fitted.

Find a steel tube which slides over the shaft, then fit the kickstart lever (obviously the shaft will need to be cut so it’s the correct length and butted up to the lever when fitted.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/10/20 10:12 am
Use a hose clip to hold the spring retainer, not vise grips, thats RAF.
Posted By: Jon W. Whitley Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/10/20 3:50 pm
Originally Posted by gavin eisler
Use a hose clip to hold the spring retainer, not vise grips, thats RAF.


Definitely the preferred method. Seeing those Vise Grip pliers on that shaft is seriously cringe worthy facepalm

Psycho...take another look at the picture I posted of the kickstart spring and retaining plate in their proper position. As Allan stated, you have way too much tension...you went a complete full turn and a half beyond where it is supposed to be.

Also, with my Motion Pro spring hook, I don't even have to use the hose clamp to keep the retaining plate in place. Just tap it onto the shaft and ensure it is fully seated. Then pull the spring and hook it in place on the tab. Easy peasy.

In this video below, this guy is a bit of a barbarian and IMO makes it harder than it is but the main thing to take away is he explains just how very little tension is put on the spring with the small amount of distance it actually travels to be put in its correct place. Oh, and flip the retaining plate so that the hook tab faces inward.

Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/10/20 5:39 pm
Thanks guys! I've ordered one of Jon's spring pullers and will do it again when that arrives.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/13/20 2:28 am
So with the inlet rockers in place, it was time to put the head back on:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Nice new copper gasket with a little copaslip added:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and on she went:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I put the exhaust rockers on:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and in went the pushrods:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Rotating the engine shows all rockers and valves moving as they should. I set the gaps very approximately, as I hate the square-sectioned adjusters and will replace them with an Allen key version.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/13/20 2:39 am
I then did a trial fit of the new exhaust, which is the 'Siamese' 2into1 type

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Am I right that there are no exhaust gaskets, and the pipe just pushes straight into the port? That was the arrangement it had originally. I was able to get the RHS pipe sitting nicely

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

but the LHS isn't playing ball:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I hate getting mediaeval on things, so I'd be grateful for any tips and tricks in exhaust fitment you might know.
Posted By: linker48x Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/13/20 3:26 am
Try lubricating both pipes with copper anti seize at the head and at the collector, try loosening everything off, removing any mounts so it’s just head pipes and collector, no brackets or muffler, and putting the left side in first since it’s the problem, and if all else fails, use your Bultaco timing tool—a dead blow rubber or plastic hammer— But Over duct tape, gently, to persuade it a little. Just a little — because the problem may be the bend of the pipes. Hope not!
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/13/20 3:27 am
I never knew I had a Bultaco timing tool but I just checked and there it is! Thanks!
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/13/20 7:31 am
As someone mentioned earlier, your getting through this very quickly.

Firstly you need to take the head back off, 1) to anneal the head gasket, that thing will never seal unless you heat it to cherry red all the way round, you can then quench it to help remove the carbon deposit.

2) more importantly.... that’s this turd at the top of the cylinder?
[Linked Image]
It looks like something is breaking away, this needs investigating and sorting because if it gets worse you won’t have a Nice cylinder for very long.

The next one is the Siamese pipe, there aren’t any decent ones on the market unless you stumble across an original one, I have an original and I made a copy from that. However that’s not possible for a lot of people, the main problem with them is this:

[Linked Image]

The right hand down pipe hasn’t been cleared properly before the mating pipe has been brazed on. What happened with mine was the gas couldn’t escape properly and it buggered the left hand cylinder. The picture was taken after I had started dremelling all the excess metal away so it was worse than that, by the time I had finished there was no lip, but gas flow on these pipes is still poor compared to an original pipe.

Don’t know if you know or not but you’ll also need some 5/16 rod (or 8mm) to make a tie rod that fits through the tubes at the headers. The problem with the left hand pipe and why it won’t go in properly is because there is too much curve on that left hand pipe. There isn’t enough straight section. Seal it in with RTV sealing and tap it in as far as it will go then put the tie rod in.... you’ve also forgot to put an exhaust clamp on where the two pipes meet.

Attached picture 8A896F6E-736D-4701-9827-22B853D5A059.jpeg
Attached picture 71942CF0-DED8-417A-AC49-38FB72AE8213.jpeg
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/13/20 10:13 am
What Allan said.You Must anneal the head gasket.Yes ,even if it is new, copper age hardens, there is no saying how long the HG has been sitting on a shelf.
Plus coppaslip is not jointing compound Coppercoat is, after annealing the head gasket, fit O rings in the oil drain holes, size not too critical, this helps prevent leaks, so long as they crush a little.
Shine a torch down the pushrod tunnel and make extra sure the pushrods are fully located on the cam followers its easy to get them half cocked, this does not go well, the telltale is excess tappet adjuster thread showing , like the TS inlet valve in your pic.
Posted By: MarcB Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/13/20 12:41 pm
Also, double check the exhaust rocker washer (top left in this pic). That side of the rocker should be rocker -> spring washer -> small washer (the washer only fits over the small part of the shaft)
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

If it's cocked, that would explain why the nut isn't pulling the shaft as much as it should (in this pic)
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/13/20 7:03 pm
Wow, lots of thoughts there guys, thanks!
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/13/20 7:10 pm
Hey Gavin, I'm not disputing your advice to anneal the copper gasket, but can you explain why it's necessary? I would have thought the heat of the engine would do that, and that the gasket would mold itself the the two faces once the engine is under load...hence one of the reasons to retorque the head after initial use.
Posted By: kevin Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/13/20 8:08 pm
just a thought.

when i anneal a new gasket to dead soft, it will bend with little force while i handle it. like lead sheet.

when i take one off a motorcycle that has been running a while, the gasket will be stiff and sometimes cracked.

it would appear that the heat from the motor isn't enough to anneal the metal.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/13/20 9:14 pm
If you aneal the gasket you are softening the copper so that it will crush and seal. If done properly you can fit the gasket with no sealent and not have to re-torque. If the gasket isn’t softened there is a high chance that it won’t seal.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/13/20 9:27 pm
Righto, thanks!
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/13/20 9:56 pm
The engine does not make enough heat to anneal the gasket, if it did you would be in real bother . What Kevin says above , just said another way. Even so , You must still retorque after a couple of heat cycles . Also a good idea to go round the cylinder base flange at the same time, but lets not get ahaead of ourselves. Whats on the cylinder bores? if its more grease get rid of it. Motor oil only.and very lightly applied.

As a general point, its very rare to take a new motor part and just bolt it on without it needing some fettling in some way or at the very least close inspection..
New rings may ( usually) need to be filed to get the right gap.
Too tight a ring gap will lead to seizure.
Very often machined parts need deburred, particularly clutch bits. Non deburred bits will jam/ act badly or eat away at other parts.
Pistons for over 9:1 CR should have the sharp edges relieved on the valve cut outs to prevent hot spots/ pinking.
Valve guides need honing to final size, valve seats must be recut if new guides are installed. etc etc.

Solid copper head gaskets need to be annealed, they can be reused over and over, provided they are still intact. but they must be annealed every time they are fitted. It only takes a cuppla minutes.

Copper anneals around 400 C / 700 F, the motor head runs around 230 C ( mine does at least , Ive measured it)
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/13/20 11:15 pm
Thanks Gavin. Round 2 coming soon...
Posted By: quinten Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/14/20 1:59 am
copper is sold in various grades of hardness .

Dead soft copper sheet is harder to work with than copper with at least a partial temper .
the copper does not Harden on the Shelf ... it hardens by being worked .
It's likely that any volume manufacturer of gaskets is using a somewhat harder
copper.... to made shop handling and manufacturing easier .

then , No matter what softness of copper is used
the stamping process will work harden all the manufactured edges .

Unless the gasket is sold as dead soft ,
what you buy new ... is copper of unknown hardness

so its up to the installer to bring the copper to dead soft by annealing .
the gasket will work harden is use ... but can be re softened again and again through annealing to cherry red .
copper has its own rules .
It's necessary that the whole gasket reaches cherry red to softer
... but it does not have to be the whole gasket at the same time .
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/25/20 8:05 pm
So, after a week of Honeydew lists and garage tidying, I stripped the head back down to anneal the copper gasket and add the two missing O-rings (thanks Gavin) also to tidy up the grease at the edge of the cylinder (thanks Allan):

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Top tip: when choosing a container for the quenching water, choose one that doesn't leak. Anyway:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Annealed washer, O-rings and nicely cleaned up cylinder edges. Rebuilt head, and then I checked the exhaust rocker end washer. This is the exhaust cam and final washer in place:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and this shows how far the bolt protrudes (actually it looks like the image is cut off, but the bolt is just flush with the nut:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I replaced the tappet adjusters with nice new ones with slotted ends:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
and larger, hardened faces:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and then reassembled the whole thing. Got teenage son to turn the engine over with a spanner on the rotor nut and checked out the movement of the top end:

[video:youtube]https://youtu.be/k2jqaIOKA8M[/video]

and all seems good to me. The tappet clearances are not yet set properly, I'll do that once I have the ignition installed and I do the static timing
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/27/20 3:00 am
So, got the exhaust on today. The two-into-one header is not well made as far as the left cylinder and the join between the two pipes is concerned. You can get any two, but not all three, connections made tightly:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I used tiedowns to pull the header into shape and into alignment with the mounting point on the frame:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Then on with a nice little angled piece:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

And then on went a Dime City Cycles muffler I had from a previous project years ago:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I quite like the looks of the final exhaust. I made up a hanger for the muffler using an M8 bolt and some nuts:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

for that 'fresh from the factory' look whistle. Alignment with the shocks looks OK at this point:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

But I'll know better when the swingarm is on and the wheel mounted. Worst-case I may need to increase the offset distance.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/27/20 6:33 am
Probably still a bit overzealous with putting things on the bike, you’ll be taking off some if not all the exhaust to make the swing arm, mudguard, front end etc fit easier (the exhausts are normally one of the last things people fit)

Apart from still not addressing the kickstart spring issue you might want to have a trial fit of the riders foot pegs. I’ve found that often the paint needs to be sanded back to allow the taper to fit securely.
Posted By: gavin eisler Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/27/20 10:27 am
The exhaust pipes need a tie bar where they leave the ports, guaranteed they will spit out without one. Nuthin fancy each header should be trapped between two nuts, a suitable lenth of 1/4 diameter SS rod threaded each end will do. If you can fit it and the nuts without removing the pipes give yourself a cigar.
For cleaning off the exhaust goo , use petrol/gasolene. That red hi temp stuff is overkill, ordinary bath type silicon can easily withstand exhaust port temperatures.
The kickstart spring will break if left over tensioned.
The matt unpollished cases will attract dirt.
Was upon a time there was a planning concept called Critical path Analysis.
Some jobs must be done before others.
Fitting oil lines and rear wheel /chain , testing tweaking gearchange, oiling up motor all come well before fannying around with exhaust pipes.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/27/20 5:02 pm
Yep, this is a retirement project not a commercial one, so I fit things because I have them, not because they are on the critical path. I'm trying to source a tie rod and will have it before the engine fires up, I'm sure.

I just received the spring tool that Jon recommended for the kickstart spring so that is on today's list. Cases and rocker cover are going off for plating soon as the lockdown's being lifted enough to allow it. Work work.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/27/20 6:47 pm
Plating Aluminium is a very bad idea. Not only does it destroy the aluminium underneath the chrome also flakes off, I’ve known good chrome company’s who will refuse to do this. Have them polished instead.

The Tie rod size is M8 or 5/16” get some rod and thread the ends up. I fit 2 nuts on mine but you’ll also find that the tightening of the rod will help to pull the headers into place, a few heat cycles and re-tensioning will sort it.
Posted By: Psychopasta Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/27/20 9:00 pm
Thanks Allen!
Posted By: Cyborg Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/28/20 2:46 pm
In that photo of your newly annealed gasket, you can see the cylinder bore finish. Hard to tell for sure from the photo, but it doesn’t look like the bores were honed properly. Much better if there is a 45 degree cross hatch with the proper stone or stones if doing a plateau finish. Personally I think it’s good to ask the ring manufacturer what stones to use rather than just go based on an ancient shop manual. For example Deves recommends 220 with their cast iron rings.
Posted By: Adam M. Re: Barn Find Beeza - 05/29/20 12:00 am
What about oil filter, did you install anything?
© Britbike forum