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Thread Like Summary
Cyborg, gavin eisler, GrandPaul, Hugh Jörgen, kevin, Magnetoman, Noe, NYBSAGUY, Shane in Oz, Stuart Kirk
Total Likes: 44
Original Post (Thread Starter)
72 Triumph Trophy #807627 05/03/2020 12:00 AM
by Cyborg
Cyborg
A few years ago I bought a 1972 650 Trophy. I changed oil and cleaned the crud out of the carburetor and it fired up without any drama, smoke or expensive sounding death rattles. The engine finally found it’s way to the bench and the plan is to try and use the engine more or less the way it is. I have a complete gasket set, valves and guides if necessary. Don’t really want to pull the barrel off or split the cases. One of the bolts that holds the breaker plate and helps anchor the points cover was snapped off and someone “tried” to extract it. I pulled the timing cover off, so it can be clamped down in the mill and I will try my luck at getting what’s left of the bolt out. I’m currently basking in the glory of actually finding the extractor bolt to remove the advance unit!

Anyway.... does anyone out there have any recommendations on what to look for? Any quirks peculiar to 1972? I recall something about the shift detent. Adding a second spring or converting it to a plunger? Any other issues?
Liked Replies
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #822362 Sep 4th a 09:00 PM
by NYBSAGUY
NYBSAGUY
Weighing in her momentarily, and not wishing in any way to hijack this great thread, but.. MMan and I have a very dear friend who is a leading physicist teaching at Columbia, here in NYC. I had him talk at my daughter's school last year, and someone in the audience (admittedly, a 'plant') asked him what he thought of math & science education in the US. I knew he was going to denounce both the curriculum and the methodology as hopelessly inadequate. What I hadn't expected was the explosion of anger, fully foaming at the mouth, and a finely tuned argument that soared for a full five minutes. Like MMan, should you ever see one of his public talks, our friend is VERY good at this. When our friend finished, he sat down and the well-coiffed audience fell into an awkward silence for a moment. Then they cheered to the rafters, led by the girls.
4 members like this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #822463 Sep 5th a 09:04 PM
by Tridentman
Tridentman
Personally I find that the digressions in a thread---as in life as a whole---are often the most interesting and valuable parts of the total content.
And as long as the forum rules are satisfied I say---the more the merrier!
As MMan says---if you don't like the digressions then don't read them or go away until the thread gets back on topic--if it ever does!
IMHO life is too short to be constrained by stupid rules.
Just my two cents worth of course.
4 members like this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #822388 Sep 5th a 01:45 AM
by Shane in Oz
Shane in Oz
Originally Posted by Jon W. Whitley
He asked, but that doesn't make it any less of a turn off to the thread and the relevance thereof.
It reminds me of one of Ronnie Corbett's stories from "The Two Ronnies" of fond memory. He would take a story to at least 4 levels of humorous digression and seamlessly unwind them to finish the original tale. It was a marvellous talent.
3 members like this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #822365 Sep 4th a 09:55 PM
by Magnetoman
Magnetoman
Originally Posted by quinten
but it may have been too simple for a physicist to understand ?
Except this physicist was once a 7th grader himself and, even though it was eons ago, still remember what concepts I had learned at that age. Plus, I went through this with my two daughters less than eons ago. Plus, I have no trouble discerning whether what I'm teaching my granddaughter is sinking in and, if it isn't, re-calibrating on the fly.

The plot thickened since my last post. It turns out the instructor wasn't the regular science instructor, but someone from the front office staff who had been brought in for the lesson. Of course, having someone like that teach a science lesson isn't an excuse for what happened, but rather is a further indictment of how science education is (mis)treated in our schools.

Originally Posted by quinten
Kinetic friction or static friction ?
The angle of the plane was large enough that static friction wasn't a factor. However, despite that, I sneaked in a short lesson on the two types of friction. Which she totally comprehended. Irrespective of anything else, it's outrageous for any student to feel "insulted" (her word) by a teacher because they happen to have access to resources that enable them to understand concepts at a deeper level than are being taught in class.

Sorry about this hijack. Back to our regular scheduled Triumph-ing.
2 members like this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #822392 Sep 5th a 02:22 AM
by Cyborg
Cyborg
Well..... the discussions about the education system are actually related to the thread in a round about way. Had I not been punted out of high school and pursued my parents wishes, I wouldn’t have misspent my youth learning to fix motorcycles.

Personally I don’t mind the highjacks..... especially if they are my own. As long as it has nothing to do with religion or politics and a couple of other things I can’t mention without breaking my own rules. I’ve learned some interesting things with some of these trips off the beaten path.

Actually this thread seems pretty tame so far. I could do a thread on installing a Vincent engine in a Honda GL500 Interstate and we could see how long that stays on the rails.

Anyhoo.... parts should arrive next week.
2 members like this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #823753 Sep 14th a 06:32 PM
by GrandPaul
GrandPaul
Loosen the pinch bolts on the lower yoke and tap it down further...
2 members like this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #812216 Jun 12th a 12:33 AM
by Tasman
Tasman
My '79 T140 broke the frame in the same place. I had it sleeved and welded and it was good to go.

There's nothing wrong with Amal carbs, buying a new Amal and keeping a single carb settup could be more cost effective with little difference in power.

Looks like a fun project.
1 member likes this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #812242 Jun 12th a 10:26 AM
by gavin eisler
gavin eisler
I think that the seat rails break there when the rear mudguard hand rail loop is removed ( for missguided aesthetic reasons) and a lardy passenger is put on the pillion seat.
1 member likes this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #812418 Jun 13th a 11:14 PM
by Jon W. Whitley
Jon W. Whitley
Originally Posted by Cyborg
While reading Jon’s 500 thread I noticed he had used a different style of extractor that looked vaguely familia


Glad my post contributed to your success in removing what was left of that screw Cyborg ! That type of extractor is the perfect tool for that job.
1 member likes this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #813485 Jun 22nd a 12:18 AM
by Hugh Jörgen
Hugh Jörgen
Andy Hardan is highly recommended.
http://www.amalsleeve.com/index.html

Up your way I think.
I've got a spare set of Concentrics I'm going to send.
1 member likes this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #815788 Jul 10th a 04:09 PM
by Magnetoman
Magnetoman
Originally Posted by Cyborg
Maybe time to add a TIG button to the torch.
For what it's worth, I can't imagine how much more difficult TIG would be without a foot pedal. I find the process of TIG is quite similar to silver soldering or brazing with an oxyacetylene torch. The major difference is the oxyacetylene torch is moved closer or further away, or moved side-to-side, to control the local heat. However, since the TIG torch has to be kept at pretty much a constant distance from the work, the foot pedal controls the heat. If I have the max. set at, say, 125 Amps and find partway through a weld that it's a bit too much, instead of pulling the torch back and letting the electrons spread out where they're not wanted, backing off the foot pedal lets me keep the torch at the optimum distance.

Sorry if the above repeats what you already know, but it seemed worthwhile for someone else who might be getting into TIG.
1 member likes this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #807637 May 3rd a 01:36 AM
by Mike Baker
Mike Baker
71 and 72 are the best years for 650's in my opinion. The leaf spring in the gearbox isn't as good as a plunger but I wouldn't go changing it until (if ever) it gives you problems. Maybe I've been lucky but the OIF 650's I've owned have run smoother than any dry frame bikes I've had. With a set of decent tires they handle good, too. Get it running and ride it!
1 member likes this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #822293 Sep 4th a 02:58 AM
by Cyborg
Cyborg
Not much progress... waiting for parts to arrive. Made a slide hammer for removing the sprocket seal along with a drift for installing the new seal. Seems like overkill, but it works on other gearboxes. Waiting for the 20 tooth sprocket and then will modify the Norton sprocket holder to fit. Don’t really like using the chain/wheel etc to hold the sprocket while torquing the nut.

The factory manual that I’m using says to get the sprocket nut as tight as possible. I’m assuming 70 ft lbs would be a good number?


[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]31E5B101-6AF1-4EE1-BEE2-CF5A6683DDD7 by First Last, on Flickr
1 member likes this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #822331 Sep 4th a 03:56 PM
by Magnetoman
Magnetoman
Originally Posted by Cyborg
So is 70 ft lbs a good number for that nut?
That seems reasonable in light of:

Commando
clutch-to-mainshaft 70
countershaft sprocket 80

Trident
gearbox sprocket 58
clutch center 60
engine sprocket 60

BSA 441
clutch center 60-65

BSA A65
clutch center 70-75
1 member likes this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #822366 Sep 4th a 09:56 PM
by Shane in Oz
Shane in Oz
Originally Posted by Magnetoman
I was helping her with her 7th-grade science homework at the time. The instructions called for comparing an experiment with any on-line simulation the student could find with google. Consistent with what were truly ambiguous instructions as to what was required, I had her search for 'inclined plane'. I then offered advice on setting up an inclined plane from a long block of wood, measure its angle with a protractor and height with a ruler, and then use the stopwatch function on an iPhone to time how long it took for another wood block to slide down it. Obviously, friction plays a role in the sliding time, and that was the only free variable in the on-line simulation. So, after a few tries with the simulation she had zeroed in on the friction coefficient that resulted in the same time as what she had measured. The worksheet she was supposed to use was inappropriate for any experiment (although, I could see from its design that the teacher had a vague understanding of the concept), so I had her do the experiment the "right" way, i.e. measure the sliding time three times and use the average.

Anyway, I got a text from her today saying she had been insulted by her science teacher this morning for including a "college level" part of her experiment because 7th graders aren't supposed to understand friction. The teacher went on to tell her that "those are for college people and scientists" and that science is about "trying and messing up." Of course, I'm not going to let my granddaughter's mind be contaminated by such ignorance, but the 29 other kids in her class who don't have a scientist/engineer at home are on their own.
That is disappointing in so many ways.

Whether we or our teachers appreciated it at the time, junior (in our case Years 7 - 10) high school science classes are really about giving a basic grounding in the fields (Physics, Chemistry and Biology in our case). Probably the most basic of that basic grounding is correct experimental procedures in the various fields, including the variations between the fields. As one progresses through senior high school, Bachelor level University, Masters, Doctoral and into post-grad research, the procedures and analysis are refined and extended, (and the toys become cooler), but it's all built on those basics which have become so ingrained that "everybody knows" them.

I may be displaying my ignorance here, but what purpose could an experiment sliding a block down an incline have other than determine the coefficient of friction? Rolling a light and heavy ball down and comparing the times is easier than dropping them from the Leaning Tower of Pisa (especially at present), and sliding blocks of different materials could show that they have different friction properties, but neither of those seem to have been in the Objectives or Methods.



btw, it was very restrained to not overtly introduce trigonometry at this stage, even though measuring the height and length of the ramp (hypotenuse) appear to have been the relevant dimensions smile
1 member likes this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #822349 Sep 4th a 07:07 PM
by Cyborg
Cyborg
Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Anyway, I got a text from her today saying she had been insulted by her science teacher this morning for including a "college level" part of her experiment because 6th graders aren't supposed to understand friction. The teacher went on to tell her that "those are for college people and scientists" and that science is about "trying and messing up." Of course, I'm not going to let my granddaughter's mind be contaminated by such ignorance, but the 29 other kids in her class who don't have a scientist/engineer at home are on their own.

Well.... sounds like you may have to convert some motorcycles into tuition. I need to be cautious about what I say regarding our education “system “. Thinking about it usually causes me to start foaming at the mouth and I lose my filter. There still seems to be a relatively high number of teachers that are totally lacking in the skills needed to shape young minds. There were a few teachers who reached out and tried to save my ass and member of our clan was a (now retired) high school principal who has achieved absolutely amazing things with underprivileged kids... so I know good ones are out there.
I was ejected (permanently) from my grade 10 science class because I was starting to lose my grip after weeks of playing with an equal arm balance scale and a box of beads. Like your granddaughter, I had a slightly mad scientist tutoring me, so once I reached 3, it was unlikely beads would still hold my attention. I remember a teacher in grade 5 holding up my work to the class as an example of how not to do things. She had no idea what she was talking about and was basically dumber than a sack of hammers. One of the other students explained it to her which hopefully she found embarrassing. I also believe my ex military mother had a chat with her. Anyway.... hopefully you granddaughter can get though the year relatively unscathed and refrain from telling the teacher what she really thinks.
1 member likes this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #822353 Sep 4th a 07:42 PM
by Magnetoman
Magnetoman
Originally Posted by Cyborg
Like your granddaughter, I had a slightly mad scientist tutoring me,
Only 'slightly'? I'll take that as a compliment.

Originally Posted by Cyborg
hopefully you granddaughter can get though the year relatively unscathed and refrain from telling the teacher what she really thinks.
I wrote a scathing letter addressed to the principal about this episode, getting ever more incensed as I wrote it, and sent it to my daughter to forward, edit, delete, or do with as she saw fit. Unfortunately, this incident has nothing to do with the limitations of on-line instruction. It has to do with the limitations of the instructor.
1 member likes this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #822379 Sep 4th a 11:54 PM
by Hugh Jörgen
Hugh Jörgen
Originally Posted by Cyborg
He filled my head full of horror stories and scarred me for life.

The Led Zeppelin album cover did it for me.
1 member likes this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #822340 Sep 4th a 05:13 PM
by Magnetoman
Magnetoman
Originally Posted by Cyborg
btw, it sounds like you are drifting off course towards another BSA?
As if I actually have a course. Anyway, there's not much danger of that. My daughter called yesterday on facetime to chat with my granddaughter[*], and when I mentioned the photo I had sent her she rolled her eyes and only would acknowledge having received it, but avoided giving any indication whether she would do anything about it.

[*]I was helping her with her 7th-grade science homework at the time. The instructions called for comparing an experiment with any on-line simulation the student could find with google. Consistent with what were truly ambiguous instructions as to what was required, I had her search for 'inclined plane'. I then offered advice on setting up an inclined plane from a long block of wood, measure its angle with a protractor and height with a ruler, and then use the stopwatch function on an iPhone to time how long it took for another wood block to slide down it. Obviously, friction plays a role in the sliding time, and that was the only free variable in the on-line simulation. So, after a few tries with the simulation she had zeroed in on the friction coefficient that resulted in the same time as what she had measured. The worksheet she was supposed to use was inappropriate for any experiment (although, I could see from its design that the teacher had a vague understanding of the concept), so I had her do the experiment the "right" way, i.e. measure the sliding time three times and use the average.

Anyway, I got a text from her today saying she had been insulted by her science teacher this morning for including a "college level" part of her experiment because 7th graders aren't supposed to understand friction. The teacher went on to tell her that "those are for college people and scientists" and that science is about "trying and messing up." Of course, I'm not going to let my granddaughter's mind be contaminated by such ignorance, but the 29 other kids in her class who don't have a scientist/engineer at home are on their own.
1 member likes this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #822363 Sep 4th a 09:17 PM
by quinten
quinten
Kinetic friction or static friction ?

Having not seen the exercise plan ... it's hard to say , but it may have been too simple for a physicist to understand ?
an introductory inclined plane exercise for a 6th or 7th grader
... may be attempting to introduce some principles ... without going full-Newton .
1 member likes this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #822442 Sep 5th a 04:13 PM
by Magnetoman
Magnetoman
Originally Posted by Jon W. Whitley
He asked, but that doesn't make it any less of a turn off to the thread and the relevance thereof.
Originally Posted by Cyborg
Personally I don’t mind the highjacks..... especially if they are my own.
The broader question is, who are project threads written for? Are they written for the entertainment of readers, who therefore should be able to control the content of what is written to be what they want to read? Or are they written for the entertainment of the thread's creator, who therefore should be able to write whatever is of interest to them about their project, including digressions if they feel like it, entertaining whoever else might be interested in reading what they write? If moderators impose their personal relevance criteria on people who take the time to create content it certainly would have an effect on Britbike. Not a good effect, I would say.

Originally Posted by GrandPaul
If you use two hydrogen tanks, and one oxygen tank, and fix all three nozzles together, does it shoot out water? H2O, and all that...
Cyborg isn't using an oxy-hydrogen torch, and it has nothing to do with his Triumph, so this digression fails the relevance test. Despite that, it seems to be of interest.

Yes, it does create water, but all it takes is one tank each. When the flow rate is properly adjusted each of the O atoms will combine just outside the nozzle with two H atoms and release the heat of the chemical bonds into the flame. The result is the highest temperature flame possible from this reaction, plus hot water. It would be easy to calculate the total amount of water that would eventually come from the nozzle from the number of moles of H and O in the two tanks. If the mixture is off the 2:1 ratio, creating the equivalent of a reducing or oxidizing flame, less heat will be available for brazing because some of the heat will be "wasted" increasing the temperature of the excess H or O atoms beyond what it otherwise would be, and thus not available for the brazing.

Originally Posted by Cyborg
I’m guessing it’s as loud and probably a little more dramatic than my Oxy propane setup with a rosebud.
It's been many years since I last used a oxy-hydrogen torch, but I don't remember it being any louder than an oxy-acetylene. I can't think of any reason why it would be. In both cases it's just a chemical reaction that creates the flame, and the chemical reactions take place at roughly the same rates.
1 member likes this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #822447 Sep 5th a 04:52 PM
by GrandPaul
GrandPaul
Originally Posted by Cyborg
...I don’t have the swing room for the length of the flame and tend to set things ablaze. Seeing the looks on the neighbours faces is much more entertaining than watching water come out a hose.
Yeah, I NARROWLY avoided employing the local Fire Department in Laredo when, while wire welding inside my shop, caught a nice oily stack of rags ablaze.

I started trying to stamp them out, but that only resulted in spreading the active flames that were licking up at my entirely wooden workbench. So, I ran to the faucet about 200' away (serpentine, through the shop / garage) and filled up a 5-gallon bucket of water, sloshed out a gallon en route back to the scene of the blaze, by which time the smoke was so thick from the ceiling to just about eye level, that the lights were virtually useless.

My chest instantly started burning, I was coughing horribly, but managed to concentrate the 4 gallons on the largest flames. I quickly ("quickly" being a relative term) re-filled the bucket, and by round two I had pulled my shirt over my face a la Covid mask, but was still rapidly losing effective breathing. The smoke was so thick by then that I had to get on my knees to apply the 4 gallons most effectively.

My vision was tunneling, and I knew I would be unable to get out if I didn't extinguish the active flames IN THAT MOMENT, so I did so, burning the soles of my shoes, but completing the task.

I was coughing for hours, and my lungs were sore for three days, but by golly I got that fire OUT by MYSELF. The shop would have burned to the ground if I had called 911...

Sadly, nobody got to enjoy the sight. Nobody even knew it happened! (so nobody would have known I was dead, either...)
1 member likes this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #822465 Sep 5th a 09:23 PM
by kevin
kevin
i often learn more from wandering conversations than from the ones that stay on track.

if people are polite, i dont mind diversions. this is conversation, not an encyclopedia. who knows what odd snippet of kmowledge might be a useful discovery to a cazual reader?

we have literally hundreds of years of experience on tap in this forum, and im happy to listen to almost anyone.
1 member likes this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #822629 Sep 6th a 11:25 PM
by Cyborg
Cyborg
I don’t recall seeing any keys, but they may well have been there. It was the early days, so maybe they hadn’t lost anyone yet? There was a board with the radiation tracking badges, so perhaps that served a similar purpose. They weren’t even using cctv, just a hole bored in one of the doors. One guy got to peer through a telescope. There had to be a dozen mirrors between the telescope and the target. At the time, they were farting around with nitrogen 13, but have no recollection why. I may have mentioned at some point that my father was involved with the experiment. He was a microbiologist, so heaven only knows what he was up to. Strange that I can remember that from so long ago, but can’t remember if I had breakfast.


Ground a piece of tool steel and made a little hook that I could slip under the edge of the crimped bezel. Adjusted the cross feed slowly and just turned the chuck by hand. Lost a little metal before I broke down and polished the hook. Bezel isn’t perfect, but wanted to see if I could get it off in one piece. It’s good enough to reuse and still has enough material left to crimp it back on. Now if I could just cut a circle out of glass.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]A205CA9C-2F9F-4B07-B13B-00A997CCF187 by First Last, on Flickr
1 member likes this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #822834 Sep 8th a 04:20 PM
by Hugh Jörgen
Hugh Jörgen
Originally Posted by Cyborg
It would probably be more efficient to collect cans along the highway, cash them in and pay for a proper kit.
Hey buddy, that's my bowl of rice.
1 member likes this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #823105 Sep 10th a 12:37 AM
by Cyborg
Cyborg
Installed the seal and sprocket. Went to torque the nut and couldn’t find a deep enough socket to fit over the mainshaft. Thought that was strange until I remembered I didn’t use a socket to remove it because it was finger tight. Goobered two sockets together and torqued it to 80ft lbs. Didn’t feel like spending time modifying the sprocket holder so just brazed a piece of surplus chain into a length of pipe. Wrapped the chain around the sprocket and clamped the other end to the pipe. Kind of bush league, but it worked.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]4F8D69A9-FBFE-4070-8BA5-A0B95654A8A1 by First Last, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]1750412E-D9BE-42B2-8C3D-0F8066550E48 by First Last, on Flickr
1 member likes this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #823113 Sep 10th a 02:02 AM
by GrandPaul
GrandPaul
I usually take a piece of chain wrapped around the sprocket and clamp the ends with vice grips, shove a rag in place to keep the vice-grips from scratching anything, and have at it.
1 member likes this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #823941 Sep 16th a 12:15 AM
by kevin
kevin
aluminum foil first, fine steel wool if that doesn't do it. then lots of wax
1 member likes this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #823945 Sep 16th a 01:14 AM
by Tridentman
Tridentman
+1 for Al foil plus chrome cleaner (simultaneously).
1 member likes this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #823976 Sep 16th a 12:26 PM
by GrandPaul
GrandPaul
I had several of those and they got tossed with a huge trailer load of spares, or got tossed in the biggest dumpster I could get when we sold our house in Laredo. Probably the dumpster, as the trailer was only "scrap" metal.

It's always a bit sickening in hindsight; now that I've found time to clean, photograph, list on forums and e-bay, sell, package up and ship out 1/2 pickup load of stuff that I KEPT, considering how much THOSE parts have fetched, I'm sure I threw out EASILY $10,000 worth of spares...
1 member likes this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #824071 Sep 17th a 08:57 AM
by gavin eisler
gavin eisler
re , the fork yoke centre nut gap, before trying to change the gap the headlamp mounting hardware must be fitted ,this stuff sets the physical gap between the yokes. At a push I have used jam jar lids bored to suit as temporary/ permanent dust covers.
1 member likes this
Re: 72 Triumph Trophy #824606 Sep 23rd a 10:57 PM
by DavidP
DavidP
Good job!
I have a circle jig for cutting glass. My mom used it for her stained glass hobby. The trick is breaking off the excess without cracking. Then I usually crack the glass when trying to crimp the rim back on the gauge. It's tough to find tempered glass in the correct thickness.
1 member likes this
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