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KC in S.B.
KC in S.B.
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73bonny Offline OP
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Took the clutch apart and repaired . Investigation showed the the splines on the Hub and the splines on the clutch centre are level when tightened up. This is evidenced by metal to metal contact on the washer by both the outer and shaft splines. Is this as per design or should the washer only be in contact with the outer spline.
The thrust washer at the back of the basket is in tolerance and the back of the basket where it bears on the rollers isnt worn .
Torqued up it all spins ok. My concern would be that the basket isnt pushed hard enough against the outer basket at the back.

all advice most welcome.
Cheers

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So was the clutch slipping? Asking as to what was wrong with the clutch to cause you to disassemble it?


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If you want to worry about your clutch take the cush drive apart look for wear on the spider legs and end plates, thats where the badness starts.Grind away the spot peens before trying to undue the cush centre screws.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
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73bonny Offline OP
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It had been sat for a while before I got it. and the oils were all suspiciously new. Topped up the gearbox and most of it was on the garage floor in the morning. There was a leak on the main drive from the gearbox on the seal behind the sprocket. took the gear box apart so the clutch had to come off too. Good job I did really as there was a egg shaped thrust washer that hadnt been put in right, the o ring seal behins the drive sprocket was the wrong size and the tab washer in arse about face. I could go on. Anyhow put it all back together with some nice new bits here and there. and cleaned up up the clutch too. replaced springs, thrust rubbers ( 1 was missing the rest were.....melted) etc etc. It was only when I put the basket on I noticed the spline faces of centre and clutch hub were almost dead level to the washer . It might be the design as you dont want too much pressure on the face between the basket and the centre or else it wont go round. testyed with blue die and looked like the bolt torque is acting on the centre shaft. with maybe a lighter contat to the centre.. That would make sense to me but I am seeking reassurance that this is how it should be. I.e. Clutch centre nut and washer act primarily on the hub to torque the whole clutch assembly to the drive shaft.

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73bonny Offline OP
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Hiya , thanks just sent a reply to the other guy explaining what I am up to. ( New to this )
Cheers
Paul

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Hi 73bonny, Hmmm.... Something sounds odd here. The spline that should stand proud is the outer as you say, which is the spider. I've not measured it, but a guess is .005-.010". It's not much. The back side of spider presses directly onto the shoulder of the the small hub with taper. The thrust washer & basket are not directly part of this problem.

In any case the thick washer should press on the outer splines.

I would look for wear at the back side of spier & the shoulder of the small center hub.

I have not see this problem before. I've had a lot of clutches off & the outer spline always stands proud. The washer is a special thick washer & very hardened. You can't really file it, it's so hard. Do you have correct washer 57-2279?

Does the outer spline look like it's standing proud? It should visibly look higher & be higher. I don't know with giving it some thought what the outcome would be in real life. I would look into why it's not proud. Again it's not much. I have some photos of this but can't post here. PM your email & I can send them.

How tight is the fit of the splines. I've had a few '73s apart & the spline was a press fit for sure. Had to be driven or pressed apart to remove basket. New LF Harris parts don't fit so well & can be rather loose. This worries me for spline wear or even wear at the back of spider, ultimately leaving washer loose. This will/can result in the small hub coming loose on its taper with main shaft.

As we discussed prior the deteriorated rubbers is common & normal. Sadly new ones don't seem to last as good as the originals for some reason. I feel worn/deteriorated rubbers may contribute to spider arm/back plate of cush hub wear, but that should not effect the spline. It should still be holding tight.

So far as I know Triumph gives no specs for any of this stuff. Roller diameter is about it.

Personally I'd get to the bottom of this. You certainly don't want things to come loose & ruin main shaft taper...
Don


1973 Tiger 750
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73bonny Offline OP
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Hi Don
Thanks for that mate. Took it all apart and cleaned it up and tightened it up dry ( no loctites etc.) . Did some measuring / blueing. Critical length is from the inside of the plate at the back of the clutch hub centre to the front of itsnner spline. Checked and added up all the stuff that sits on it . So thats big thrust washer, basket, clutch middle. . Spider in clutch middle looked ok and no float within so the splined spider cant move or be out of position. I cant measure that good and the thrust washer at the back is ok. Anywear on that lot would have taken the spider spline rearwards.
So...after cleanup . The outer spline (clutch hub) was ever so slighly ( ever so) further out than the inner hub spline. Blued up and tightened slightly the splines appear to come level.
My tinking being that the design intent is that the bolt torques up against the hub to hold it on the taper. The bit of "extra" spline on the clutch centre outer is there to apply sufficient pressure across the assembly ( hub, basket, thust plates ) but without overtightening it so it can move freely. If all the torque was held on the outer spline then it would be stiff in rotation and the taper centre would not be tightened on the shaft.
So, ill give it a go and see if it spins when the correct toque is applied.

I think I may have been seeing some old loctite on the inner when I disassembed it It took some removal must have been good stuff.

Someone has been in before me and I noted that the taper on the shaft had been remachined. I lapped it with the hub but worth noting that it took the whole clutch and hub centre about 1/2 mm toward the gearbox. There were some dodgy looking "shims" over at the engine drive side that someone had used to compensate.

I'llsee how it goes . Diode crapped itself so farewell Lucas hello regulator coming soon. The next episode no doubt. ( Ive had Ducatis - I can do this - I keep telling myself.)
Cheers

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Hi 73bonny, The outer spline (clutch hub) you see is the spider. If back side of spider spline end is worn, it indeed will move back & make it even with the small hub.

Indeed the washer normally only presses on the spine tip. Remember that spline is the the inside of the spider. When spider is forced back with the washer & nut torque it puts pressure on small hub which presses it tight onto taper.

Whatever you decide is what you'll do, that's fine by me.

On a side note the 3 row chain is much more sensitive to chain line than the earlier 2 row. Factory recommends setting chain line + or - .005". Shims are available in .010" 70-8038 & .030" 71-2660 thickness. They go between the 71-2663 spacer (that's against bearing) & the sprocket.

It advisable to use least shims as possible, meaning don't stack three .010" to make .030". Use a .030" instead. These are hardened, not simply a thin washer. Can be a little hard to come by. Many sellers don't stock them.

Lapping main shaft taper was needed, but will move basket inwards. Wear in thrust washer for basket or flange of small hub will move basket inwards. Always measure basket position with clutch plates installed & springs tightened. This holds baskets to the rear (or the right side of machine if you will). The basket normally has some runout on the sprocket teeth. So measure in several places & average measurement. Since basket moves to rear as thrust washer wears, if you have to choose between outwards or inwards to edge of spec, I go outwards as wear will move it in wards.

If you don't actually ride bike much not so important to do all this correctly. However if you actually want to ride the bike & have things last longs as possible, all this stuff matters. Some just ride to the coffee house once a week. Maybe put 150 miles a year on bike at most. It depends on what you do with bike.

Ducati is not a simple bike. However many times easier to work on successfully in my opinion. Triumphs have many idiosyncrasies that will bite you in the rear if you put many miles on bike & don't do things right. Huge problem with Triumphs is 90% of the repro parts are not to spec, even though supposedly made to original blue prints. Not like the old days when you went to dealer & got the new genuine parts. Bolted them in & you're good to go. Not like that at all now.

Going electronic rectifier/regulator is a good plan. What ignition are you using? Trispark has some compatibility issues with some regulators. Look over Trispark web page under troubleshooting. How do you diode is bad, did you test it with ohm meter or the like? Should you need stator, 3 phase high output is recommended. That needs specific 3 phase regulator. Stuart recommends getting 3 phase regulator at this time in case you should upgrade to 3 phase stator at later date. 3 phase allows low speed city use & the use of modern bright headlamp without discharging battery. Low voltage at lower rpm like in city has been a long term issue for Triumph until they came out with the 3 phase stator.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
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73bonny Offline OP
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Mate you are like the "Encyclopaedia Triumphica" . Many thanks - some hard eared experience there by the sound of it. I got a 2 wire recifier from the local triumph supplier - there loads of bonnies here in NZ and parts arent that hard to find. Cant see this bike going too far - more of a hobby thing . If I was looking at more riding Id probably go for the 3 phase conversion but the budget (and the missus) isnt going to let that happen.
Thanks for the chain advice - the factory manual just says put a straight edge across them both and check they align. "Straight edge + wishful thinking = too much tolerance in my experience . Do it with the cups in and tightened - thanks.
Pattern parts - yeah I get you , I got some clutch spring end screws , looked right but the slots were too small, the thread started halfway down and the metal was supiciously couloured ( anodised?) they had also stamped an arrow on the top - instead of that peened ridge. You couldnt get much more wrong with a simple pattern. Dressed up the old ones and they should be ok.
Thanks once again - much appreciated
Stay well

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73 Bonny, wise to listen to Don, he seems to know more than “a lot” if you know what I mean. Throw the diode in the bin, I have had two go tits up in three years and left me stranded both times. Probably knock offs from Pakistan, but at about $75 each it was a no brainer. Ignition?? I think Pazon are in NZ now so I would start there, they are cheaper than Trispark, the reg/rec that Mr Trispark sells has a filter on it, don’t exactly know what is does but it made my 650 Trophy run like a hairy goat over 3500rpm, so off with the filter and back to normal.

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Hi 73bonny, The 2 wire will work fine. I still run 2 wire. If you install LED headlight bulb it really helps to save electricity. BPF LED headlamp. Look close at this one. See how it has 8 small LEDs on each side & some cooling fins. I find it works pretty well. Much better than the old 2 LED version that had 1 large LED on each side. I got mine from Classic British Spares. Pretty much same one is sold world wide. Key is look for the 8 on each side. Simple drop in. Just remove old bulb, install LED. Re aim headlight on dark street to where you see the best.

Motorists can see the LED much better & I & my friends find they give you more respect since they can see you better. It really helps the battery voltage stay higher for short trip & city riding.

Out of curiosity which 2 wire rectifier did you get? I don't know which is best or not, just curious. Please do follow up on how it works out.

Here's a link with photos so you can see the BPF LED I like.

https://www.classicbritishspares.co...ulbs?_pos=2&_sid=fac86ead2&_ss=r

Don


1973 Tiger 750
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73bonny Offline OP
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Hi Folks
Clutch now reassembled and feels ok - on the lever. Time will tell when its running.
Thanks for all the LED and recitfier info. I'll have a look at all that. Sad thing being is that I had rewired it all nice and tidy and will now have to move some wires about to make it all fit as the rectifier and Boyer dont quite fit under the seat ( we're talking mm here ) - maybe lift the seat up a little - theres a thought . Anyhow diode death (theres only one) was evidenced by fuse blown . Fortunaltley this occured within old bloke pushing distance of the house (<125M) .
Mulimeter time! Yay!
Fuse gone and there is a straight ground to earth.
Ignition off ....
Still ground.....
Disconnect fuseholder lead from from recifier - this lead is also attacted to the main supply to the bike. Still ground ... ( So Rectifier OK)
Disconnect Supply lead from Diode (the power goes from the recifier to here at is attached on a common connection with the supply to the rest of the bike.) NO ground
Ignition on ... test disconnected diode lead Ground ( that what you would expect as all the services would be switched on).
So ....Its probably the diode

Check earth of diode to frame ( in case of paint rust etc) . All good
Check resitance across diode one way - none
Change polarity of meter test diode the other way - none

Diode is not diode.

Quite pleased with myself I then looked to replace it noted the price and the fact none were available. Looking at the collective wisdom of this site and my local classic spares dealer I went the way of the rectifier.
Its a 4 wire "Wassel" unit , single phase 12V 160 Watt rectifier . Suitable for positive or negative earth. NZD $95 I understand from the dealer that they have supplied a few of these and dont offer diodes anymore.

So thats where I am with it - If I get some time this week I'll start on the relocation / installtion process .
Thanks everyone for your collective help - stand by for the next installment .
Stay well
Paul

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Originally Posted by 73bonny
Sad thing being is that I had rewired it all nice and tidy and will now have to move some wires about to make it all fit as the rectifier and boyer dont quite fit under the seat ( we're talking mm here ) - maybe lift the seat up a little - theres a thought .

There are empty spaces behind the rear side panels where you can mount a Boyer or reg/rec box.

https://www.baxtercycle.com/product/83-4803/

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73bonny Offline OP
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Had a look - yeah good suggestion. - thats where its going. Out with the crimper ! ( for the wires that is - I dont have any hair).
Cheers


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