Classic British SparesKlempf British PartsBaxter CycleBritBike Sponsor SteadfastCyclesSRM EngineeringLucas Classic MotorcycleHepolite PistonsIndustrial tec supply

Upgrade your membership to: Premium Membership | Gold Membership | Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Welcome to BritBike Forum!
Britbike forum logo
Member Spotlight
Vetterdog
Vetterdog
Central NJ
Posts: 371
Joined: March 2006
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 680
Likes: 2
BigBars Offline OP
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 680
Likes: 2
Hi folks, I posted this on TOL but is seems to be down for a couple of days so I'm casting the net a bit wider.

While replacing the leaking head gasket I measured the following guide to valve clearances (engine is at 10k KM):

- Inlet guides close to spec in the middle of the guides and double at the ends *(2 thou and 4 thou approx)

- Exhaust guides close to double the spec spec in the middle of the guides and over three times spec at the ends *(4 thou and 7 thou approx)

The valves seemed to hardly have any wear and were almost all spot-on the max dimension in the manual. The middle exhaust guide was the most worn.

It seems my options are valves and guides are

1. Hyde, (colisbro guides and chrome valves 214N)

2. LPW (colisbro guides and chrome valves? ) or

3. Kibblewhite (Mang. bronze guides and black diamond stainless valves)

4. K-Line liners with new valves (or maybe just with the same valves? ) I know nothing about k-liners though... (except they seem to save the head from possible damage while removing and replacing guides, and the valves should line up well with existing seats.)

From lots of reading online and on this forum it seems any of the three first options are fine and one should aim for about 0.8 to 1 thou clearance (honed).

Does this sound right?

Anyone have experience of K-line liners? what clearance would one do with them?

OR

Considering the bike hardly burned any oil, should I keep going for another few years and leave as is?

Any advice or insight on which way to go would be greatly appreciated.

I plan to NOT use guide oil seals.

I'm doubting the possibility of finding a shop comfortable with brit bikes in switzerland so might have to send to the UK. Any recommendations?

Cheers

Brett


3D TV: A format that lost a format war without even having an opponent.
Bikes: '69 T120 on average (1967 rolling frame and 1971 Bonnie engine) + '56 1/2 T110 on average (58 rolling frame - with 55 iron head engine) + 74 T150 Home model.
Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!

Check out British motorcycles for sale: British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,750
Likes: 39
Britbike forum member
Online Content
Britbike forum member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,750
Likes: 39
Originally Posted by BigBars
Hi folks, I posted this on TOL but is seems to be down for a couple of days

TOL has been working normally for me.

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,028
Likes: 13
A
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
A
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,028
Likes: 13
After dismantling my engine I found old unworn Kibblewhite valves ( before even Black Diamond valves were in production ) in completely worn out guides. Don't remember exactly but it felt like 0.5 mm clearance on exhaust valves and guides. I used my valves with new Kibblewhite guides ( much harder than stock and typical guides sold by British part dealers ) and after 4 seasons and roughly 10 k km there are still in great shape. I decided to use guide oil seals on inlet guides. Used the same setup for my A65 before and it was good when I sold this bike after 20 something thousand km.

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,295
Likes: 99
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,295
Likes: 99
IMHO valve guide wear is the biggest Achilles heel of the triple engine.
By about 10K miles the guides are pretty well worn by conventional engineering standards.
So--what to do?
My initial reaction is---nothing.
If the motor is running well and oil consumption still reasonable then the old adage springs to mind" "If it ain't bust then don't fix it".
If however with the head off you decide to do something now then I think that you have probably summarised the options pretty well.
I have no personal experience of K lining the guides but I think in your situation that is what I would go for.
Replacing valve guides is a bit like head butchery IMHO---you run the risk of oversizing the hole in the head and of the new guide not being Concentric with the seat.
With K lining you do not disturb the guide to head interface and the liner can be reamed to be Concentric with the seat--thus minimising the amount to be taken off the seat and thus minimizing seat recession.
As to who can do it in UK----don't know but I guess that some of our UK contributors can probably point you in the right direction.
Failing that then talk to P&M in London or Darbs in Wolverhampton.
Just my two cents worth.of course.
Best of luck!

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 237
Likes: 3
F
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
F
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 237
Likes: 3
Big Bars, I sprung for Kibblewhites valves and guides in my 1971 BSA Rocket Three about ten years ago. I sent them the head and they did the complete rebuild, including new springs, etc. I have had zero problems since, although, I don't ride it that often. I ride it even less now, as I crashed it last year. It is a sad sight, sitting forlorn in the shop now waiting for some attention.
Just my experienced two cents worth.
Fullminator.

Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 39
Likes: 1
M
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
M
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 39
Likes: 1
Fullminator, how many miles were on your R3 when you had the head redone?

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 680
Likes: 2
BigBars Offline OP
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 680
Likes: 2
Thanks for the input folks.

Adam, did you use the manganese bronze valves from kibblewhite or their C630 guide, or are the manganese bronze ones harder then the Colisbro ones offered by LPW and hyde?

I'm almost tempted to go with the hardest guides and the "cheapest" valves to just replace valves every so often rather than the guides? But maybe that's stupid...


3D TV: A format that lost a format war without even having an opponent.
Bikes: '69 T120 on average (1967 rolling frame and 1971 Bonnie engine) + '56 1/2 T110 on average (58 rolling frame - with 55 iron head engine) + 74 T150 Home model.
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,295
Likes: 99
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,295
Likes: 99
While it is true that generally the harder material wears less than a softer material against which it is in moving contact----this is not always the case.
Wear depends not just on macrohardness but also on the microhardness.
The latter can vary depending on the alloyed materials in a an alloy.
So you really need definitive wear data on the pair of materials that you are thinking of using.
Probably best obtained from the supplier/manufacturer such as Kibblewhite.
HTH

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,991
Likes: 79
Britbike forum member
Online Content
Britbike forum member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,991
Likes: 79
TM +1, bearing properties are not just low friction, a soft material with low embeddability will, once it has absorbed hard particles to its capacity, then use them to wear away the harder material it runs against. Embeddability is the ability for a surface to absorb crud and store it so it does not affect the bearing or journal, Whitemetal for all its other faults has very good embeddability as does a soft overlay coating, but once the reservoir has been filled it becomes like sandpaper.

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,232
Likes: 23
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,232
Likes: 23
A friend racing a 37 Indian Scout had problems with valves beating up the seats. He has gone to titanium valves because they are supposedly sacrificial.

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,028
Likes: 13
A
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
A
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,028
Likes: 13
In my BSA I used Black Diamond valves and iron guides, Valves in my Trident were some old Kibblewhite valves made before the Black Diamond valves were made, but they weren't worn at all, also what was very rare, their ends weren't beaten up what is normal occurrence in these engines.
I decided to go with C630 guides and until know after another 10 k km the ends look the same.

Last edited by Adam M.; 11/15/20 6:02 pm.
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,934
Likes: 72
Q
Britbike forum member
Online Happy
Britbike forum member
Q
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,934
Likes: 72
Quote
I'm doubting the possibility of finding a shop comfortable with brit bikes in switzerland so might have to send to the UK. Any recommendations?

if there is a local shop familiar with K liners they will not need any britbike specific experience .
the job can be done in about an hour .
( if your valves are good , check that they have the liner-kit-bits for your valve stem diameter )

shipping the head off to a foreign country
guarantees you can't drop in to see how things are going ,
the job will take longer , ( who are you ? , we are getting it to it sir , yours is next )
be more expensive
and maybe , just maybe be done right , ( if the master and not The Apprentice does the job )

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 680
Likes: 2
BigBars Offline OP
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 680
Likes: 2
Hi Folks, thanks for the input. Some calls around here I am going to have to go to the UK for guides. Luckily the recommended folks (P&M and 3D have a very good reputation it seems)

The K-lines really seem to be a USA only thing. I spent some time and found no-one offering that in europe, however I did find a few in the UK. However they were mostly motorcar machinists.

I might kick the can down the road and keep going until I start to burn oil as per Trident Man's idea. It's a newish to me bike and I do expect other gremlins to come out....

Can a loose guide/valve clearance cause damage to the seats, or anything else, or is burning oil my main concern?


3D TV: A format that lost a format war without even having an opponent.
Bikes: '69 T120 on average (1967 rolling frame and 1971 Bonnie engine) + '56 1/2 T110 on average (58 rolling frame - with 55 iron head engine) + 74 T150 Home model.
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,295
Likes: 99
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,295
Likes: 99
Most triple engines I have come across tend to have oil consumption problems starting at about 10K miles.
Although obviously this is not a clear cut number.
However as your bike has done about 10K Kms (just over 6K miles) and the oil consumption is tolerable then I would certainly be inclined to "kick the can down the road"--particularly as you say it is a new bike to you.
IME you need a few hundred miles at least to get to know a bike and figure out what if anything needs attention.
You also need to take into account the annual mileage you expect to do on the bike.
If the bike is for pleasure only and if you also have other bikes then you maybe will do only 1000 miles a year on it.
In this case your guides will probably last another 3-4 years before the oil consumption gets bad enough to really need attention.
Just my two cents worth of course.

Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,477
Likes: 58
knuckle head
Online Content
knuckle head
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,477
Likes: 58
"Can a loose guide/valve clearance cause damage to the seats, or anything else, or is burning oil my main concern" Loose guides can cause the valve not to seat squarely. In time this stresses the valve stem and in sometimes causes the valve head to break off...I don't believe this is common on Triumphs but anything is possible. I think sloppy guides don't do anything good for valve seats either..


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons..
“But I don't want to go among mad people,” Alice remarked. “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 237
Likes: 3
F
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
F
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 237
Likes: 3
My Rocket Three had about 8800 miles on it when I sent the head to Kibblewhite for rebuild. They used their Black Diamond valves and bronze guides. I also installed some after-market mushroom head tappet adjusters. The original adjusters and the valve stems were showing signs of being beaten up as Adam mentioned can be a issue on the triples. I have put about 4500 miles on the bike since Kibblewhite's rebuild, until the subsequent crash. When I get around to fixing it again, I will review the head and gauge Kibblewhite's effectiveness.
Fullminator

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 916
Likes: 8
E
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
E
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 916
Likes: 8
I put K-Liners in my Velo about 20 years ago and they have been great. My Trident head got the full Kibblewhite treatment about 10 years ago and its still running great as well. I was under the impression that K-Liners came to the US from Europe.

Ed from NJ

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,689
Likes: 9
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,689
Likes: 9
I try to only use K-liners and black nitrided valves, they can run without much clearance and last fine. When they wear they just replace the liner. Because the guide is not removed they are finished perfectly true. A complete guide is true before hand then added crush with fitting can distort it a little. Liners also tend to be more true with the seat which needs less cutting.


mark
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 680
Likes: 2
BigBars Offline OP
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 680
Likes: 2
Interestingly Kibblewhite stopped selling the C630 guides (for this application at least) some time ago. They say it was due to the vast majority of folks wanting to ream with hand tools.

"The overwhelming majority of customers wanted a guide they could run a reamer through, using a hand held drill.
The C630 is too tough for that, so we went with the manganese bronze. From the research I'm able to pull from online sources, our C67410 Manganese bronze is similar in hardness to the Colsibro."


3D TV: A format that lost a format war without even having an opponent.
Bikes: '69 T120 on average (1967 rolling frame and 1971 Bonnie engine) + '56 1/2 T110 on average (58 rolling frame - with 55 iron head engine) + 74 T150 Home model.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,819
Likes: 56
D
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
D
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,819
Likes: 56
"Liners also tend to be more true with the seat which needs less cutting." - maybe not. People replace valve guides because they are worn out. Since the thrust of the valve from the rocker is in one plane the hole is worn oblong. Unless you have a way to pilot off the seat it is difficult to ream out the guide for the liner square to the seat.
Puling out a guide may take some head material with it but it usually is from all around, not one side. Replacing the guide should be with a tool that pilots off the seat so it is pulled in square.

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,816
Likes: 87
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,816
Likes: 87
Originally Posted by BigBars
They say it was due to the vast majority of folks wanting to ream with hand tools.

"The overwhelming majority of customers wanted a guide they could run a reamer through, using a hand held drill."
Oddly enough, my reamer is made by Kibblewhite. But, I used it with a tap handle. That's why they call them hand tools.


Knowledge speaks. Wisdom listens.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 680
Likes: 2
BigBars Offline OP
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 680
Likes: 2
Interesting point Dave, I see in the K-line video they supply a seat alignment "bung" that sits on the seat and the reamer goes through before going through the valve. was not clear to me the purpose of that. Now I know. Of course, doing it right in a machine shop would be best.


3D TV: A format that lost a format war without even having an opponent.
Bikes: '69 T120 on average (1967 rolling frame and 1971 Bonnie engine) + '56 1/2 T110 on average (58 rolling frame - with 55 iron head engine) + 74 T150 Home model.
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,934
Likes: 72
Q
Britbike forum member
Online Happy
Britbike forum member
Q
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,934
Likes: 72
K liners have been around for 40 years .
the new type with the offset grooves has been around for 20 years .

the K-line method is approved by most of the major engine manufacturers
like ford and GM
and diesel engine manufacturers like
Caterpillar and Cummins .


Moderated by  Tridentman 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Job CycleBritish Cycle SupplyMorries PlaceKlempf British PartsPodtronicVintage MagazineBSA Unit SinglesBritBike SponsorBritish Tools & FastenersBritBike SponsorBritBike Sponsor






© 1996-2021 britbike.com
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5