BritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike Sponsor SteadfastCyclesBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorHepolite PistonsBritBike Sponsor
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Gold Membership | Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Welcome to BritBike Forum!
Member Spotlight
RPM
RPM
Dallas Texas
Posts: 550
Joined: August 2006
New BritBike book out!
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,659
Likes: 3
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,659
Likes: 3
In theory should an A65 750 be faster than a Vincent with 450cc of extra displacement? Conventional wisdom would go which way?

I like both bikes and always dreamed of the beautiful V twin that me and very few could afford. But where should we place the more humble and cheaper A65? In the '70s it copped a lot of flack from owners of other marques, especially here in Australia, what about the rest of the world?


mark
Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!

Check out British motorcycles for sale: British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 6,849
Likes: 48
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 6,849
Likes: 48
Originally Posted by Mark Parker
Folklaw

Do you mean Folklore ?


FWIW, I would rather have many of the A65 variants over a Vincent of any model. Just my 2c of course. I say that as never have ridden a Vincent but with the two side by side, the BSA is for me a no brainer, just on looks alone.


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1968 T100R Daytona 500
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1970 BSA A65F 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project
1971 BSA A65 650 - Project
1972 Norton Commando 750 "Combat"


"Every time I listen to AC/DC, so do my neighbors"

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,087
Likes: 63
N
Britbike forum member
Online Content
Britbike forum member
N
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,087
Likes: 63
Chalk and Cheese.
Beezers were built as on a large production line as a mass produced affordable motorbike.
Vincents were built for a non existent market, supposedly elitist and record chasers, they involved
a large amount of hand finishing which made them very expensive to make and maintain.
I do wish i'd bought a few over the years though as they were a better investment than gold.
They were cheap enough in the 60's and 70's and a lot were stripped to be used in racing or
remade as norvins. Egli did the best vincent frames in my opinion, the stock vinnie was never
a very pretty bike.
Over the years in sidecar racing there have been a few fast vincents but their capacity made
them outside any international regs. 500 or 750 were the classes. With some work over 100BHP
is achievable but how big is your wallet and what are you going to win?
One of those at Morgan park last week has so far cost the guy who bought it over $50k and it
still doesn't run properly. Everything thats made for them or done to them attracts huge price tags
as suppliers etc know the blokes that have bought them have money to burn.
I raced against Malcom Attrel back in the 70's, that was probably the best looking vinnie outfit
i've ever seen, but he sold it and went to a Konig 2 stroke.
Racers normally get rid of the horrible clutch and gearbox as two minute changes are not good.
I believe the Kiwi's do a very good alternative based on a Honda box.

In answer to the original question, No an off the shelf a65 will not be as fast as an off the shelf vinnie.
That was reflected in the price tag. Vincent supposedly put out around 65bhp A65 around 45 on a good day.

Last edited by NickL; 11/15/20 12:28 am.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,352
Likes: 5
W
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
W
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,352
Likes: 5
I know and have met a few guys who love theirs a lot. Even an English chap and his wife who were touring the world and a few guys here in British Columbia. The only time I rode a Vincent was in about 1958 when a friend, who was much like the guy in the movie " The Fastest Indian " rode out to our house in the country on his 1000 at about the time I had my Rudge Ulster and offered me a ride on the Vincent. After I stalled it, he started it again for me ( I was all of 120 lbs ) and off I went. At the time, I was quite impressed as it effortless was at speed before long. I really enjoyed it but wonder what I would think of it now. We knew an older chap years ago who couldn't start his Vincent so his rides were limited to when someone would come over and start it for him. We've seen one or three over the years with an electric boot. I remember one chap riding off from a biker luncheon quickly and by the time he was into third gear he was out of ear range. The closest I've ever come to owning a Vincent was when I purchased a pair of Vincent carbs which I eventually sold on to a Vincent owner for his project. And they can sound wonderful too...... I have ridden one or two A65s but never owned one. Somehow ended up with 500 Triumphs. But I can still dream.

Cheers, Wilf


"It's about the ride..."
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,404
Likes: 39
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,404
Likes: 39
Chalk and cheese indeed; well put NickL. Why even bother to compare two such very different motorcycles?

Early board track racers were purported to go 100 mph, on what must have been about 18 hp. Speed is not the only measure of a machine.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,659
Likes: 3
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,659
Likes: 3
Jon, in Australia a good speller knows how to spell a word a few different ways. I know much of the American spelling is to save ink.

I cannot remember being close to a Vincent. I do like stuff that cruises effortlessly. I know well that if you go big displacement kick starting becomes a negative consequence. The Firebird is an easy one kicker which is very convenient. I have high bars on it so beyond 70mph isn't real inviting, with 21-47 you can get it in top out on the road and leave it there, no matter how much you might wish for a fifth gear. They could have addressed that with the 71 model.

Ha ha Nick, I just worked out the 'two minute changes' I thought getting the case off and plates out of an A65 would take longer. I don't use the clutch for most up shifts on the A65. I'm used to it from Jap stuff because some of them aren't very smooth using it. I don't recommend people change that way if they cannot do it with out a crunch of some sort. If you brake a cable don't crunch it in at all, it can break dogs, or teeth.


mark
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 19
C
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
C
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 19
Personally (I’m gonna get killed for this...) I think Vincent’s are seriously overrated. They reckon BSA means Bits Stuck Anywhere, but imo the big V is the king in that regard.

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,087
Likes: 63
N
Britbike forum member
Online Content
Britbike forum member
N
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,087
Likes: 63
Over-rated may be a good description but like it or not they still attract huge price tags.
Mind you, most are bought and sold as collectors items not as motorbikes anymore.
If i ran a britbike garage i would want to work on them as you can charge much more
than if you work on any other bike. Plus it doesn't really matter how well they go as few
ever see more than minimal if any mileage.

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,204
Likes: 65
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,204
Likes: 65
I agree with Nick--it is like chalk and cheese.
Growing up (?) in UK in the 1960s BSAs were relatively cheap bikes for the working class.
A10s and then A65s were ride to work bikes--often the only form of transportation.
Then if you got married and made a mistake and had kids you hitched a sidecar to the bike.
Whereas Vincents were high quality bespoke bikes, hand built, and expensive--out of the reach of the average guy.

Just a personal note.
I started on a Bantam, moved onto an A7SS and then onto A10 sidecar outfits--in all cases as my only form of transport.
However at the age of 18 as a penniless student at university I bought a Vincent Black Shadow for 50 GBP (about $65).
In those days they were just "old bikes" and nobody wanted them.
Six months later as a penniless student and needing to eat I sold the Vincent for the same 50 pounds price.
The Vincent is a relatively slow revving bike with by 1960s standards a big engine and with a compression ratio of 6.5-7: 1 it has really good torque whereas the BSAs need revs to produce "GO".
That was my only experience of Vincents until recently although I had dreamt for years about getting one--but was put off by the high prices.
However a friend of mine called me a couple of months ago asking me if I knew anyone who wanted to buy a 1947 Vincent Rapide as he was going to sell his.
Without really thinking I said " Yes--I know someone---me!"
So I bought a Vincent (photo attached) and took it for its first ride on 1st November which happened to be my 75th birthday.
Impressions--the bike seems small, the ride is firm and the torque is BIG!
I like it a lot!
From what I can tell Vincent owners fall into two categories--the collectors who never ride them and the riders who ride them a lot--big mileages.
I intend to ride mine---my friend had fitted it with Concentrics with air cleaners and a BTH electronic ignition.
It starts well.
Hope that I have not bored you.
The above is of course just my two cents worth on the subject.

1947 Rapide (JM).jpg
1 member likes this: Allan G
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 6,849
Likes: 48
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 6,849
Likes: 48
Originally Posted by Tridentman
However a friend of mine called me a couple of months ago asking me if I knew anyone who wanted to buy a 1947 Vincent Rapide as he was going to sell his.
Without really thinking I said " Yes--I know someone---me!"
So I bought a Vincent (photo attached) and took it for its first ride on 1st November which happened to be my 75th birthday.


Good for you Richard and enormous congratulations !! I am not against Vincent V-Twins and if under the perfect circumstances, I would surely snap one up. It's just that probably fortunately for me, I haven't developed a lust for them like I have the more common Triumph, BSA and Norton twins as well as other marquees. Given my track record of enthusiasm for certain bikes, wanting a Vincent would be detrimental to my personal finances with the past few decades and current trend of Vincent prices grin

I imagine, the torque is very much relatable to a 900cc or 1000cc Ironhead Sportster ?


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1968 T100R Daytona 500
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1970 BSA A65F 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project
1971 BSA A65 650 - Project
1972 Norton Commando 750 "Combat"


"Every time I listen to AC/DC, so do my neighbors"

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 13,577
Likes: 63
Well'ard Rocker
Offline
Well'ard Rocker
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 13,577
Likes: 63
Originally Posted by Mark Parker
I cannot remember being close to a Vincent. I do like stuff that cruises effortlessly. I know well that if you go big displacement kick starting becomes a negative consequence. The Firebird is an easy one kicker which is very convenient. I have high bars on it so beyond 70mph isn't real inviting, with 21-47 you can get it in top out on the road and leave it there,

I've ridden a Vincent, and I've got a Firebird geared 21/47 ... The Firebird is an easy one kicker, but so was J.F.'s Vincent that I rode. The Vincent starting system turns the engine a decent amount, not like a Velo or a BSA B50 where the kickstart gearing is so low that everything has to be perfect to get it fired up.

Tickle (unless hot) then ignition on, compression release in, "long swinging kick" and drop the compression release halfway through and off she goes. I don't think there's any question that any Vincent is going to outrun any BSA A65, absent race-prepping (and I know you've done wonders with yours!) or bike-magazine hype. After years of riding A65s, and helping guys race them, and paying attention to LSR results, I completely discount the one-time magazine test of the stock "120 MPH Spitfire". There's too many reasons not to believe them. Vincents are another thing.

Sort of like comparing a 1.6L Ford Pinto with a 1.6L Lotus with the same Cortina block. There's just no comparison.

Lannis

Last edited by Lannis; 11/15/20 11:30 pm.

"Why do you wear that thing, Dobby?" "This, sir? 'Tis a mark of the house-elf’s enslavement, sir."
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,724
Likes: 17
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,724
Likes: 17
Originally Posted by Mark Parker
In theory should an A65 750 be faster than a Vincent with 450cc of extra displacement? Conventional wisdom would go which way?

I like both bikes and always dreamed of the beautiful V twin that me and very few could afford. But where should we place the more humble and cheaper A65? In the '70s it copped a lot of flack from owners of other marques, especially here in Australia, what about the rest of the world?

Mark ....here in NZ there were very few A65s on the road back in the day ......mainly Bonnies and Comandos ....very few Hardly Ablesons as well which was a good thing

The A65s certainly weren't looked down on at all ...in fact one of the main reasons I brought my A65 NEW in 71 (but it is a 70) was because i figured that because the were comparatively unusual they were less likely to get stolen ..........i was right ...know plenty of guys who had their Triumphs stolen , and as for Hardlys you couldnt even insure those dungas

There are more A65s on the road here in NZ now than there ever were back in the day due to guys going to USA and bringing them in by the container load


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,087
Likes: 63
N
Britbike forum member
Online Content
Britbike forum member
N
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,087
Likes: 63
The Lotus used the Kent engine block not the pinto one.
The cost and maintainability of the cortina compared to the lotus
is also a comparable thing when looking at a65 vs vinnie.....

They are not really one of the bikes i drool over, a nice G50 or 7R
or Goldie (proper DBD32/4) is more my thing If going back in time
a bit more a Rudge Ulster. Tastes differ i suppose.

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,087
Likes: 63
N
Britbike forum member
Online Content
Britbike forum member
N
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,087
Likes: 63
'There are more A65s on the road here in NZ now than there ever were back in the day due to guys going to USA and bringing them in by the container load'

Same here and probably back in the UK.
My own one is an imported yankee one, part of a container full of old brit stuff.

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,725
Likes: 77
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,725
Likes: 77
Same with triples. I think all the T160s have gone back home.
Of course Vincent speed is legendary, but doing 125 on a T150 was scary enough for me, with 'modern' suspension. Doing the same with a Girdraulic front end? No thanks.
Never had my A65 above 75, and it doesn't feel really happy there (or I don't.) In fact, I took it to 19/47 gearing to make it better on the tight roads I prefer to ride.
I have seen Vincents entered in the Ridden Daily class at shows. I guess they get ridden, or the owners lie to win a trophy.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,087
Likes: 63
N
Britbike forum member
Online Content
Britbike forum member
N
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,087
Likes: 63
I tend to agree with mark that the upright riding position is not that great
at much above 75-80mph but i still like to see the other side of 90 every
now and then just to know the old camel is going ok and can still do it.
In theory the girdraulic front end is very good at speed and very strong
if set up and working properly. I have no personal experience but i know
that my brother and his pal rode all over europe years ago at quite high
speeds, his pal had a lightning and pete rode his goldie. They also used
to go over to the island most years and ride around at ludicrous speed.
Pete always reckoned to not get too close to avoid the oil cloud from the
vinnie at high speed.

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,659
Likes: 3
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,659
Likes: 3
Firebird is a bit rich but I'm not sure if its around idle or on the needle, or where on the needle. I can drop the needle one more notch but that's it. It's barely on the needle on the highway. The needle may be too skinny on the straight section. Too pointy, but I don't know what's normal on these. Maybe I should wire the fuel/air ratio gage into it, it would be easier in the long run I expect. Plugs need a while to change from stove black.

The carbs are probably 2 stroke type though they say they go on either. GPS doesn't tell you how far you have gone didn't realize how much I used that. I have 10 different pilot jets but they do not do much.

That's a beautiful Vincent.


mark
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 592
Likes: 9
P
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
P
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 592
Likes: 9
Mark, Are they PWK's or copys? They use the needle to tune instead of needle jet like on Mikuni carbs. So, if yer fat at 0 to 1/4 or so get the next leaner (fatter) needle. A plug check should point you in the right direction. Might take a couple of tries. Cheers, PRT

Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,670
Likes: 19
A
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
A
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,670
Likes: 19
Originally Posted by DavidP
Of course Vincent speed is legendary, but doing 125 on a T150 was scary enough for me, with 'modern' suspension. Doing the same with a Girdraulic front end? No thanks.

If I was given the choice of doing 125 on a bike with girdraulic forks or a bike with some of the flimsy under damped offerings from BSA and Triumph, my arse would be on the Vincent seat


BSA B31 500 "Stargazer"
Greeves 200 "Blue Meanie"
Greeves 350
Greeves 360
Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500 sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500 "Llareggub"
Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
'35 & '36 OK Supreme
Kawasaki ZZR1400 "Kuro no senshi"
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,433
Likes: 49
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,433
Likes: 49
Quote
They use the needle to tune instead of needle jet like on Mikuni carbs. So, if yer fat at 0 to 1/4 or so get the next leaner (fatter) needle.

That's exactly right, it took me a while to work out that nugget of information when I was tuning my B44 with a PWK 28 carb which was running way too rich. Ended up using a thicker needle than the one supplied which leaned out the mixture well enough to run well.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,724
Likes: 17
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,724
Likes: 17
Originally Posted by NickL
'There are more A65s on the road here in NZ now than there ever were back in the day due to guys going to USA and bringing them in by the container load'

Same here and probably back in the UK.
My own one is an imported yankee one, part of a container full of old brit stuff.

yeah its a bit like how there are more "DBD34s" on the road now than the factory ever made


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,087
Likes: 63
N
Britbike forum member
Online Content
Britbike forum member
N
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,087
Likes: 63
That list is huge me old cock, RGS's, Thruxton bonneys, Thruxton velo's, Goldies of all sorts, lightning vinnie, s etc etc
That's without the ones being produced new now. Same on the race scene, Manxes, G50's 7Rs etc.

A lot of the racing rigs are a bit of a joke really as they are so far removed from the original engines they shouldn't
really be allowed to race under the same name. Have you looked at some of the repro Triumph and Norton cases,
they are about twice the thickness of the originals. En40 cranks, titanium rods etc etc.Yet they race under the same
name, it's a joke really. When i suggested filing the finning down a bit on a GSX1200 engine so i could call it an MV
and sticking it in my outfit, the club went mad, but is it any different? It's a more modern engine same as those .

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,550
Likes: 83
Britbike forum member
Online Content
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,550
Likes: 83
Cubes should win, money wont beat know how.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod

Moderated by  Allan G, Jon W. Whitley 

Link Copied to Clipboard
BritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike Sponsor
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Gold Membership | Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Home | Sponsors, Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons, | DVD- Manuals & Parts books









Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5