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I just saw this in the thread about A10 valve seats -

Originally Posted by kommando
SRM do come up with some odd rubbish, like not fitting an oil filter in the oil return to retain the warranty on their oil pumps.

So rather than pollute that thread, here we are..

I am just about to order said oil pump for my 72 A65 (they are on backorder). I do have a filter in the return line,
all ready to go.

I will ask SRM if Kommando's statement is true and report back here.

>>>> Edit : Answer from Mark Sutton at SRM -
>>>> If you fit the Norton type oil filter on the return then the warranty stays valid. If you use any other kind of filter system then it does indeed void the warranty


BTW I 'T'eed the rocker feed AFTER the filter, as it looks to me as if the the standard plumbing would see the incremental pressure from the filter and push a whole bunch of oil back to the rockers rather than through the filter. I don't know if that's true, it just looked that way to me.

I am a little concerned that I may be reducing the feed to the rockers, but it looks like the pressure to the rockers was from the 'head' of oil back to the tank. I don't think I have changed that.

Steve.

Last edited by S-NJ-W; 11/09/20 3:24 pm. Reason: Add reply from SRM
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T ing after the first for the rocker feed is correct, otherwise the back pressure from the filter increases the flow to the rockers and over oils the rockers.

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I have tried both ways, first time I plumbed in to the return line and left the rocker feed stock.
2nd time i teed in the rocker supply after the filter and blocked the old rocker line at the manifold.
2nd time was better. first time it put too much into the sump.
My rockers are doin fine.


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I'm soon to plumb in a filter on my A65 bitsa. This bike has a two-pipe oil junction, and the rocker feed is off an extra spigot on the oil tank. So I guess the split is inside the oil tank.

I was going to intercept the return line to the tank. It seems like you would want all the oil returning to the tank to be filtered and not just what flows to the rockers. Also, the oil filter (MAP kit) has 3/8" diameter spigots, and the rocker feed line is around 3/16".


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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
I have tried both ways, first time I plumbed in to the return line and left the rocker feed stock.
2nd time i teed in the rocker supply after the filter and blocked the old rocker line at the manifold.
2nd time was better. first time it put too much into the sump.
My rockers are doin fine.

I have it plumbed in the conventional way with the filter in the return line. I have no issues with over oiling the rockers or feeding too much to the sump. Maybe different filters are more restrictive than others???

The head has a split pin (crude idea but effective) which is designed to restrict the oil going to the rockers.

Might be worth adding that pre 68 (or pre *A -Y engines) the oil tank used to T off and feed the rocker box. They changed this to the manifold design. Presumably to get more oil to the rockers?

Last edited by Allan G; 11/07/20 7:36 am.

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AIUI , the Y mods were part of BSA trying to prevent motor failures which were thought to be from overheating, when the real culprit was the 4CA breaker plate. Bad sparks were causing engine failure, not inadequate oil flow.
i want all my return oil filtered.


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I have all my BSA twins with oil filters on the return side and the oil feed to the rockers downstream of the filter, with plenty of oil getting to the rockers. I do it this way to get 100% of the returning oil filtered and maintain the same head of oil supply to the rockers as designed.

I bought a SRM oil pump for my A10 spitfire and got the attached sheet with it. I think SRM are misinterpreting their own instructions. It says 'We DO NOT recommend the fitting of any obstruction in the oil lines such as filter kits or non return valves! The pump demands more oil from the oil tank and any restriction in the oil flow will end in disaster. To me this means an obstruction in the feed line and not the return.

As an aside, My neighbour, who has a BSA racing short stroke A10, has the 2CV cartridge filter plumbed in on the feed side and has been like that for many years with no problems of oil starvation. I wouldn't like to try it myself but I suppose it's not unlike the 'Charlie's' filter that some fit to the OIF Triumph twins.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


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Originally Posted by Servodyne
I have all my BSA twins with oil filters on the return side and the oil feed to the rockers downstream of the filter

Servodyne, in this case, 'downstream' means after the filter in the return line, right?

I have asked Mark at SRM to comment on the impact (if any) to the warranty of the oil pump.

That said, you now have me wondering what that warranty would cover.
The replacement of the oil pump in the event of a failure, or the consequences of an oil pump failure?

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Consequential losses, eg anything other than the price of the pump, will not be covered, even if it was in the contract with SRM you have to take them to court in the UK, doing this from outside UK is too expensive to consider.

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The more I think about this, the more I realize that it makes no sense to put the filter only in the rocker feed line. Thus the return line bypasses the filter, allowing unfiltered oil to return to the reservoir, then back into the engine, then back to the reservoir, etc.

I would lay odds that SRM's warning is only against putting the filter in the feed (reservoir-to-engine) line.


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Originally Posted by S-NJ-W
Servodyne, in this case, 'downstream' means after the filter in the return line, right?
Yes, I've taken the rocker feed from the return line banjo after the filter.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


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Thank you. You can also clearly see the banjo from your thread about an A10 crank in your A70 cases, that I just found.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Is that a banjo from a Concentric ? smile

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Here is the mock up for my filter mount, between the carbs. Keeps it upright with enough space to remove it without spilling the old oil.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

The mount needs a bit of cosmetic work, but will be painted the same as the frame and should blend in.

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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
AIUI , the Y mods were part of BSA trying to prevent motor failures which were thought to be from overheating, when the real culprit was the 4CA breaker plate. Bad sparks were causing engine failure, not inadequate oil flow.
i want all my return oil filtered.


I’ll have to go through my service sheets. A lot of modifications were made during mid 67. The oil mod being one of them.

I’m all for an oil filter but how much crud is your (Not you directly but any) engine Spewing out. Decent oils are designed to last about 4x the length of time that most people actually use them for. Yet with the frequent oil changes that these old bikes get the amount of crud that will get to the rockers is next to nothing.


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Originally Posted by S-NJ-W
Here is the mock up for my filter mount, between the carbs. Keeps it upright with enough space to remove it without spilling the old oil.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

The mount needs a bit of cosmetic work, but will be painted the same as the frame and should blend in.

That’s some bends for your pipe work. You could also mount it under your air box


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My A65 oil filter is mounted in a similar location however mine is turned through 90 degrees meaning oil does spill out when the cartridge is changed, so not ideal.

If I was doing it again I think I would try and fit a smaller mount and filter since the Norton type is oversized IMHO.

On my B44 I'm using a Magnifine inline filter which combines a paper element and built in magnet to trap any ferrous debris. This filter has the advantage of being inline so is easier to mount in the return line see This link


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Originally Posted by Allan G
That’s some bends for your pipe work.

Yes, I agree.

The return line from the pump has to curve around the back of the spine (oil tank) of the frame and slide onto the filter inlet, to keep the tube as free as possible from a possible kink. That last 100 degrees is looking very tight. The plan is to run it with rubber oil tube and eyeball it to see just how tight it is into the filter inlet.

If it's not looking good I will make up some 3/8 metal pipe to take the entire (280 degree) curve, but am very mindful that each Jubilee clip is a failure point. If I go the metal route, I anticipate making some kind of bracket that attaches it to the bottom of the battery carrier frame. I would prefer to avoid that, as I was already eyeing that location for the Podtronics rectifier - voltage limiter. It's also possible that I would drill holes in the mount and lead the input to the filter in that way, with a 90 degree metal bend, instead of coiling around the frame. I just won't know until I see it.

Originally Posted by Allan G
You could also mount it under your air box

It is under the airbox. In the center, between the carbs, but I didn't want to have to modify the airbox and hang it from that. Right now it has the advantage of being self contained and easily removable leaving no extra holes in original equipment.

The output from the filter to the spigot to the tank is no problem in terms of tubing run, but I am looking at the high quality of Servodyne's work, where his output banjo has two different diameter output pipes - one to the tank and one to the rockers. To preserve the 'head' of pressure to the rockers, you want that as low as possible. I am wondering if the smaller feed to the rockers is going to get enough flow (from the head pressure) with a simple T (of two different diameters) after the filter.

Originally Posted by gunner
the Norton type is oversized IMHO

Again, agreed, but it has the advantage of (very) available replacement filters. That 'oversize' has the benefit of increasing the total volume of oil in the system that can be changed. I am going to use the SRM sump plate with the magnet. I hope that will catch ferrous crud before it reaches the gear wheels of the pump.

I will post more about it once it is actually in use.. Its all just the mock-up right now. All input is good input.

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It’s not under the air box at all. It’s in front and lower than the box but between the carbs.
Anyway...

Paul Goff does a kit, although simply it’s a much shorter bracket that actually places it underneath the air filter section of the box. I haven’t a photo sadly, but my mate has one And it’s quite discrete whilst keeping the filter in the same orientation as you have it.
Personally I’d rather not have it on show at all.

Stateside we found on eBay a section of oil pipe which was preformed to different shape bends. It proved itself quite handy on a project and meant the pipes weren’t getting kinked.


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Originally Posted by Allan G
It’s not under the air box at all. It’s in front and lower than the box but between the carbs.

Ah, okay. I see what you mean. Yes, I tried to tuck it further under by securing a mounting bracket to the lower mount points of the rear mudguard. That's why the mudguard is in the frame in the pics above.

It might be the spin on adapter I have, but I couldn't get it under the air box AND still have enough clearance to change the filter without spilling oil all over the engine when you unscrewed it.

Here is the Paul Goff kit you mention:
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

http://www.norbsa02.freeuk.com/goffyoil.htm

Paul says this about the kit :
BSA A65 OIF mounts above the offside of the gearbox, with stainless bracket hose clips and fasteners. PT.no.OFKA65OIF
On ALL kits the std. centrestand can be used.

Looks like he is using the same spin on adapter as I, from a Norton. I hadn't realized that the Norton also had the filter in the return line and that you dumped the contents of the filter as you changed it.

He doesn't show a photo of his kit fitted, but by the description above I think he he has it mounted in much the same place as Servodyne.

As I said, I didn't want to spill oil as I changed the filter, so I am where I am. I agree, it would be better to not have it on display at all, but I can live with it. I added the links to Paul's kit in case it helps someone. I hadn't come across Paul prior to Allan's direction, so thank you.

Last edited by S-NJ-W; 11/08/20 8:26 pm. Reason: punktuation
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The bracket changes with each kit (naturally as it’s the only thing that can change) the bracket shown in his picture is the type used on the pre oif.

As I say, sorry I don’t have a photo but it will fit.


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I edited the first post to reflect Mark Sutton's answer from SRM about filters voiding the warranty.

>>>>> If you fit the Norton type oil filter on the return then the warranty stays valid.
>>>>> If you use any other kind of filter system then it does indeed void the warranty.

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Adding one more vote for the "it doesn't matter where you T the rocker feed" crowd. I've tried both ways, and same (or very similar) amount of oil is accumulated in the sump.

As far as feeding unfiltered oil to the head, that's not that big of a concern. The unfiltered oil issues are primarily centered around the crank sump and not in the head. The biggest consequence might be cam oiling but I've never heard of anyone having issues with unfiltered oil there.

So, my vote is "use whatever routing works best for your situation based on the parts you have".

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Hi folks,

this is the solution for the oil filter location I opted for on my son's oif-Scrambler

First a pic of the bracket I made. This is mounted to the r/h rear engine plate and the Norton-type adaptor bolts onto this.

[Linked Image from up.picr.de]

That's the way it looks assembled.

[Linked Image from up.picr.de]

[Linked Image from up.picr.de]

The first incarnation (pictured) had the rocker feed tee-d off after the filter. But as the filter partly drains with the standing bike I went back to the rocker feed line attahced back at the oil manifold.

The location for the filter is good, although a bit messy when changing the filter. But rags are helpful.

Cheers!

Ph.


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Just in case anyone has a pre unit BSA, this is where I fitted a Morgo filter [Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]20160321_122720 by Sigma Projects, on Flickr


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The attachment for my filter is very similar to Phil in Germany, using the front rear mudguard mount plus an additional tapped hole in the rear engine plate, taking care not to have too long a bolt which may impact on the oil tank tube.
The filter I use is a HiFlo HL303 which is much more compact than the Norton type and is fitted to numerous Honda's and Kawasaki's.
The manifold is just a block of 20mm thick aluminium hand cut, drilled, tapped and ported with a screwed union off a Honda Deauville which costs about £7.
I wouldn't get too hung up about the filter not being fitted upright to minimize oil loss. Not much comes out if you're quick and a rag catches the rest. Most Jap bikes have their filters fitted this way and they don't come to much harm.
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


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