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Originally Posted by Mark Parker
My book arrived today.....
You will have surely been pleased seeing the pic of your own bike in Peter's book, Mark. grin

Cheers!

Ph.


Best regards
Phil
Duesseldorf/Germany
'62 A 65 Star (disassembled)
'69 A 65 Lightning
'71 A 65 Firebird
'84 Yamaha SR 500
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Yep it's pretty cool. Must have been fun working at BSA, and frustrating. It's very interesting reading. Ideally I'd put the bike back on the dyno with the mixture corrected and the 52mm mufflers rather than 36mm or whatever they are and mess with timing and see what's possible. The trouble is I have to pay for anything I destroy. Being paid to do it at a factory would be so much better, but probably restrictive. You can see engineers being blocked and great solutions and innovation disregarded. And crazy stuff pursued. Why would you be abrasive at all to a young guy telling you about new electronic ignitions?

The star models are interesting, we are in an age when these and later models reflect a design age and they are very cool to cruise around on. People make retro but it's hardly like these things. New Triumphs are quite big and far different.


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Originally Posted by Mark Parker
My book arrived today. Very nice indeed. lots of reading. Lots of stuff visible that is a bit silly from management.

I would love a Bandit/Fury frame. Firebird motor would be great in one of those with the Thunderbolt head. Imagine that with triple discs and nice wheels. A 650 like that would have plenty of nice power.

You can get hold of a Bandit look alike frame, its the Kawasaki ER500 frame.

Bandit Frame

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Kawasaki ER500 frame

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Bandit frame with iso mounted B50 frame ie P92

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

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Yes that would be nice, but maybe not eligible for classic racing.


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Hi

Yes an interesting read. One of the things that I found quite interesting was the comment by Ron Mason, who said that Devimead probably produced no more that around 200 barrels (I thought it would have been a lot higher), due to porosity and other casting issues. He said they'd get a batch of 20 and get 10 or 12 barrels out of the batch that's terrible.

I've cast 70 alloy barrels and had 4 which turned out with porosity on the final bore prior to coating, these were then linered to utilise them. So after reading that I'm feeling quite happy with myself, I did look at both the original BSA and Devimead barrels when getting the mould made and changed a couple of things to make casting and machining simpler and getting the pour temperature right is a critical part of the process.

Looking forward to reading the volume two.

John

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I straightened and extended my patterns. I just have 3 bits plus the bores. So I have one cyl that could take longer rods. But really a 750 is easier and smooth. Easy to kick start.

https://app.photobucket.com/u/markparker/p/9c945f81-7266-4d34-8565-acfc2166831a?mode=zoom.


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Originally Posted by Mark Parker
I straightened and extended my patterns. I just have 3 bits plus the bores. So I have one cyl that could take longer rods. But really a 750 is easier and smooth. Easy to kick start.

https://app.photobucket.com/u/markparker/p/9c945f81-7266-4d34-8565-acfc2166831a?mode=zoom.


It comes up saying "the owner of this album has set it to private" Mark.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

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I haven't, I just haven't paid enough to get the right link. I just paid a few $$ to get my photos I had there when free. And need to cancel it anyway.


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Just ordered my copy, now excitedly waiting for delivery, I hope its as good as everyone says.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
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Originally Posted by Mark Parker
I haven't, I just haven't paid enough to get the right link. I just paid a few $$ to get my photos I had there when free. And need to cancel it anyway.

Thats Photobucket being a devil. I signed in a while back as I wanted to download the content which I had previously uploaded. It had some images going back 10 years which I no longer have on my current devices. It wouldn't let me download them.. Like WTF, those are my images. Those pics still occasionally pop up when i google search something like A65 etc but again the links dont work.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

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I just right click them and save to folder.

They had some interesting things going on with the A65s. The effort they expended on stuff that was probably backward is amazing. What part of an A65 needs OHC At what rpm are the pushrod motor's limited 10,000rpm? Why make it taller and harder to work on? Why not change the bottom end and make it as bullet proof as simple to work on as the head? Why not discontinue the holes in the drive side rod? Ben is planning racing an A65 and we now know the balance factor we need.

Interesting seeing from the perspective of the manufacturers and what causes them grief.


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Originally Posted by Allan G
Originally Posted by Mark Parker
I haven't, I just haven't paid enough to get the right link. I just paid a few $$ to get my photos I had there when free. And need to cancel it anyway.

Thats Photobucket being a devil. I signed in a while back as I wanted to download the content which I had previously uploaded. It had some images going back 10 years which I no longer have on my current devices. It wouldn't let me download them.. Like WTF, those are my images. Those pics still occasionally pop up when i google search something like A65 etc but again the links dont work.
I tried signing in to Photobucket a while back, but they had deleted my account, so all images gone. I most likely have them elsewhere.


1967 BSA Wasp
1967 BSA Hornet (West Coast Model)
1967 BSA Hornet (East Coast Model)
1968 BSA Firebird Scrambler
1968 BSA Spitfire Mark IV
1965 Cyclone Competition Build
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Originally Posted by JER.Hill
Hi

Yes an interesting read. One of the things that I found quite interesting was the comment by Ron Mason, who said that Devimead probably produced no more that around 200 barrels (I thought it would have been a lot higher), due to porosity and other casting issues. He said they'd get a batch of 20 and get 10 or 12 barrels out of the batch that's terrible.

I've cast 70 alloy barrels and had 4 which turned out with porosity on the final bore prior to coating, these were then linered to utilise them. So after reading that I'm feeling quite happy with myself, I did look at both the original BSA and Devimead barrels when getting the mould made and changed a couple of things to make casting and machining simpler and getting the pour temperature right is a critical part of the process.

Looking forward to reading the volume two.

John

Remember we are talking about UK production technology of the 1970's which was not much advanced from the immediat pot WW II technology .
Then there was this funny mindset that nothing should be changed unless absolutely necessary.
Now day we have computer controlled furnaces, holding furnaces and moulds, vacuum degassing , betted chemical control over tha melt start to finish and far better fluxes .
At college I was taught that it was impossible to ge shrinkage & gas porosity in the same casting
At work I was problem solving this exact occurance for our customers .
The use of spectrual chemistry, particularly to control minor elements that used to be considered impurities like Iron & Nickle to a level just enough to form a skin agains the mould surface instantly but not enough to start inward dendritic growth or form FeSi or NiSi intermatallics is possible now days, it was not available back then.
As is real time nuetron radiography which allows you to watch the actual solidification in the actual moulds on the casting line.
Add to that very accurate ccomputer modeling of solidification has revolutionised the foundry process .


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Hi Trevor

Thanks for your insight into the world of casting. Just to let you know my barrel were done in an old foundry (sadly now closed) using resin sand. While they did have control of the mix and furnace temperature, the pour was into the sand and let it set.

What I didn't really understand from the book, was that if you got a bad batch, would you not be thinking. Ah, maybe we want to look at changing something for the next batch! Or at least that's the way my mind works.

regards

John

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If the accepted reject rate is 40% then you just plan for it, cast 60% more , test as early as you can and the rest become process scrap.
Pe WW II nearly allof the art iron barels are porus
That is why they got painted and fitted with spun cast liners which usually do not leak.
With the advances in foundry technology post WW II the bores were as cast .
Small batches are not as much of a problem as big batches because of the time factor .
Even if you are making remelt ingots when we were pouring the 6 ton furnace we added silicon hardeer every 1/2 to to compensate for silicon burn off during the pour .
What people do not understand is the metal compositin is not consistent in the furnace and changes even more as you pour.
In BSA's time chemical analysis was all by wet means and silicon in aluminium takes about 1/2 hour so by the time you have a final chemical composition the gutnace is empty & you are 1/2 way into the next charge.
Even worse is that holes can move through the metal
so a casting that was sound when tested in the foundry or even in the machie shop can suddenly start to leak after 5 years of operation .


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Originally Posted by JER.Hill
Just to let you know my barrel were done in an old foundry (sadly now closed)


Does this mean no more barrels John?


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

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Hi Allan

To answer your question. Not sure, to make another batch I'd first need to find a foundry that I'd feel comfortable with. Then its how long I would end up with them sitting on the shelf! It's quite a bit of cash outlay to go cast up a batch, machine them and get them Nikasil coated.

regards

John

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Hi John, I can see where your coming from, it’ll be like starting all your years of hard work from scratch again. I’m glad I got mine when I did.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

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I think if Les Mason was in charge at BSA they would still be a leading brand. You would not really need hindsight to know what needed doing and what was just going to waste money. The main thing, you needed the guy in charge to be a motorcyclist who understands the product and the buyer.

How many times the screws came out of the cush hub? I brazed nuts on the back and through bolted it decades ago.

I know from experience you never discount the efforts and solutions of others because of qualification, or lack of it. An enthusiast or engineer? Or because you think you know better. Especially when results can be tested and observed, and it's being offered. How easy it would be to alter a casting and build a 744 and blow the doors off the triple.


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Mark, you and others know that BSA wasted all their scarse money on other than proper enginnering changes. As Trevor pointed out the British bike industry refused to upgrade production equipment. No matter who was in charge would not have changed anything unless there was enought cash flow for devolopment ,and there wasn't because of all the known problems.
You may be able to build high HP BSA twins with presice machine work and carefull assembly, the factory could never build it at a sellable market price and make a profit. ..Even the Japanese with massive resources had trouble building high performance twins that were marketable...And the Yamaha XS 650 was not a performance bike..


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons..
“But I don't want to go among mad people,” Alice remarked. “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
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Originally Posted by Mark Parker
I think if Les Mason was in charge at BSA they would still be a leading brand. You would not really need hindsight to know what needed doing and what was just going to waste money. The main thing, you needed the guy in charge to be a motorcyclist who understands the product and the buyer.

How many times the screws came out of the cush hub? I brazed nuts on the back and through bolted it decades ago.

I know from experience you never discount the efforts and solutions of others because of qualification, or lack of it. An enthusiast or engineer? Or because you think you know better. Especially when results can be tested and observed, and it's being offered. How easy it would be to alter a casting and build a 744 and blow the doors off the triple.

If any one who rode & knew about motorcycling was in charge of BSA then they would probably still have been making motorcycles .
But unfortunately like all big companies BSA became run by the money men who know everything about shuffeling money and minimizing tax but nothing about producing what the company makes.
Now days if you do an MBA you will be taught that all profits are made by the board .
Jus look at all of the abandoned prototypes like the 1/2 A 7 250, abandoned in favour of the pre WWII designed C series .
Any one with 10 of a functioning brain would have tooled up to make the 1/2 A 10 250 which was cheaper to make, faster to make ,more powerful, more reliable and brough in bigger economies of scale to the A series to boot.
Abandoned because they had not recouped the developement & tooling costs of building the C series .
Only an accountant could come up with a decision like that .


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The money wasted trying to win at daytona could have been used to retool
the entire line! They had a race winning 650 and a dead beat 500, where
would you spend the money?

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Also the change in payout % going to share holders from the 1950s to the1970s I cannot see how that could work for long. BSA did do major upgrades to the factory. What was practical and needed on bikes was seen as unnecessary expense, though the cost would be minimal. And benefits immense. Failed to end feed the crank and fit a long lasting trouble free bearing, when it's already worked out. Didn't build a 750 big bore version, it just bolts on. Why build a double overhead cam head? What was the purpose? Why spend on modifying the bush? Employed road testers to ignore. 3 wheelers for mums to ride to the shops, and where do the kids fit?

If the bush wasn't changed because of engineers or company losing face, how would that work? It could have been a great marketing tool. Which motors would people be trying to buy now?

Imagine what you could build for 1972 or 73? An end fed 80x74 750 with modified twin carb Thunderbolt head, good rods and pump in the 350 frame, discs front and rear 70hp would more than suffice. A Z1 900 had 82hp and 54.5lbft claimed, the long stroke 750 was a couple less hp with 63lbft. But the short stroke should be a bit higher revving, I doubt it would be less powerful. How would a light small race bike go using the 350 frame? Is the Bandit frame better than Tony Price's Featherbed?

Last edited by Mark Parker; Yesterday at 08:40 AM.

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Originally Posted by NickL
The money wasted trying to win at daytona could have been used to retool
the entire line! They had a race winning 650 and a dead beat 500, where
would you spend the money?

Where you persieve the best return for the money was or to placate the local distributors.
Remember a Datona win in the USA was equivalent to an IOM win in the UK and could add 10% to that seasons sales and allow a price hike .
In order to retool you have to convince the motorcycle ignorant money men that the new model will repay the cost of retooling and add sufficient profit to maintain the dividend at the current level , not an easy task .
It would be interesting to find out exactly what it cost to run the comp shop.
Most of the men of the period complained bitterly that it was drastically under funded


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Originally Posted by Mark Parker
Also the change in payout % going to share holders from the 1950s to the1970s I cannot see how that could work for long. BSA did do major upgrades to the factory. What was practical and needed on bikes was seen as unnecessary expense, though the cost would be minimal. And benefits immense. Failed to end feed the crank and fit a long lasting trouble free bearing, when it's already worked out. Didn't build a 750 big bore version, it just bolts on. Why build a double overhead cam head? What was the purpose? Why spend on modifying the bush? Employed road testers to ignore. 3 wheelers for mums to ride to the shops, and where do the kids fit?

BIG SNIP

To easy to do "what if's with hindsight but a different thing when you have to argue the case with technically illiterate money men in a country where tradition is everything and as they had been selling every A 7 / 10 they could make with a plain bush & side feed crank so why change it sir .
Interesting that singles retained their end feed cranks and those C 12's & C 15's are always having costly warranty repairs done so obviously this "end fed thingy " is just a fad .
Same arguement about making the modern 250 designed off the A 7 , we are selling every C 10 & 11 as fast as we can make them so why loose sales by shutting down the line to make this untested on the road new model


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