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DavidH Offline OP
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Hello all,

I'm about to install a Pazon Surefire ignition on my 1966 T120R. The original wiring scheme includes a kill button on the handlebar. This connects to both wires running from the points to the coils, one white/black and the other yellow/black. It works by connecting both these to frame earth when the button is pressed.

These wires will now connect the Pazon black box with its triggers on the circuit board in the points cavity. So, not the same electrical situation as with the points. In the original scheme, the kill switch bypasses the points and keeps the coil ground connection on - so no break in primary current, thus no spark. With the Pazon, I assume the wires carry a low-power electrical signal from the trigger coils, telling the black box to break current to the coils, generating a spark.

My question is whether the same wiring, i.e. grounding the white/black and yellow/black wires via the kill button, is is safe and functional with the Pazon ignition? Easy enough to simply try it, but I have some concern about damaging the box.

Thanks,

Dave

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Easiest answer is to email pazon
They're normally quick to reply

Pazon is built so that it's still ok if you wire it up backwards.

My t140's ignition is killed by killing power to the box

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I had the same question and contacted Pazon. Here is what Andy wrote back:

"For a grounding type kill button:

Connect the switch contact into one of the ignition trigger wires (normally Yellow-Black).

For a two contact type switch that cloes a circuit (does not short to ground), you can connect it directly across the trigger wires (Y-B and W-B).

Alternatively, you can fit an on/off witch that simply cuts power to the ignition module (white wire feed)."

My kill switch has a white wire and a blue/white wire. Using a two 4 wire connectors, I cut the yellow/black Pazon wire and then connected the kill switch white wire with the two yellow/black Pazon wires. I cut the black/white Pazon wire and then connected the kill switch switch blue/white with the two black/white Pazon wires. Everything tucked neatly to the inside of left front gas tank above the gas tank front bolt.

It has been seven years since installation and it has never given me any issues.

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DavidH Offline OP
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Thanks for the info! I did ask Pazon a few days ago, but no reply as of yet - so I thought I'd tap the experience here.

It seems you only need to ground one of the trigger wires to kill the ignition, but since the switch is built to ground two I'll probably connect both for a degree of redundancy.

Cheers,

Dave

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"For a grounding type kill button:

Connect the switch contact into one of the ignition trigger wires (normally Yellow-Black).

For a two contact type switch that cloes a circuit (does not short to ground), you can connect it directly across the trigger wires (Y-B and W-B).

Alternatively, you can fit an on/off witch that simply cuts power to the ignition module (white wire feed)."


Presumably Andy had good reasons for saying these things.

When he says “normally Yellow-Black” is that assuming +ve ground?
Does that mean on a –ve ground system it would be the White-Black?

He chooses to mention for a double pole switch that it doesn’t short to ground. I don’t know why that would be important.

Certainly having a switch connection between the 2 trigger wires will stop the ignition, I can’t see what difference a connection to ground would make.

Indirect ways of going about it, as he says you could just switch the power to the ignition.

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A single wire from the trigger lead to an earthing button on the handlebar is the simple, reliable, safe answer.

Don’t put a second switch in series with the power feed to the ignition. Many Norton Commando owners can tell you what a pest that is.


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He must get a lot of emails on the subject. Not sure why he wouldn’t include that info with the instructions. I also emailed him a few days ago.... I mentioned that it was positive ground, so assume I will get the “normally yellow black” reply. I’m leery about using the stock (71 Triumph) handlebar switch.

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Originally Posted by triton thrasher
Don’t put a second switch in series with the power feed to the ignition. Many Norton Commando owners can tell you what a pest that is.


why not? i have a 66 thunderbolt with a smartfire that essentially works that way.

there's no kill switch so i have the feed to the pazon control unit taken off the old switched hot wire that went to the left coil. the key switch interrupts power to the box.


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Every time you press the kill button (and I suppose any switch) there is an arming across the terminals.

If you have your ignition feed running through 2 of these systems (key switch then kill switch) your increasing your resistance and chance of a failure.

The trigger needs both poles receiving a signal to tell the box you want to fire the coils. If it only receives one, the box won’t fire (same if you have a crap magnet on the rotor) by earthing one of the trigger wires your simply mimicking just that. If any arcing does occur at the kill switch it is less of an issue because it isn’t carrying the main feed for the ignition and only carries current when the button is pressed... I think.


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I’m sure any arc from a trigger wire would be very small.


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Originally Posted by kevin
Originally Posted by triton thrasher
Don’t put a second switch in series with the power feed to the ignition. Many Norton Commando owners can tell you what a pest that is.


why not? i have a 66 thunderbolt with a smartfire that essentially works that way.

there's no kill switch so i have the feed to the pazon control unit taken off the old switched hot wire that went to the left coil. the key switch interrupts power to the box.

I wasn’t really ordering you around. It’s fine with me if you put forty switches in a row.


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Originally Posted by Allan G
The trigger needs both poles receiving a signal to tell the box you want to fire the coils. If it only receives one, the box won’t fire (same if you have a crap magnet on the rotor) by earthing one of the trigger wires your simply mimicking just that.

The pickup wires are not part of two separate circuits.

The two wires make one circuit between the box and pickup. The pickup coils are connected (in series) between the wires so both coils operate simultaneously therefore earthing either pickup wire should be all that's required.

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I never use the kill switch - to me it's if you drop the bike and the engine is still running. Easier than reaching the ignition switch
My t140 is a 79 so has the central binnacle

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Originally Posted by AngloBike
I never use the kill switch - to me it's if you drop the bike and the engine is still running. Easier than reaching the ignition switch


It can be for when the throttle sticks open.


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Originally Posted by triton thrasher
I’m sure any arc from a trigger wire would be very small.

I agree. Much less than the current draw to power the ignition system.

Originally Posted by L.A.B.
Originally Posted by Allan G
The trigger needs both poles receiving a signal to tell the box you want to fire the coils. If it only receives one, the box won’t fire (same if you have a crap magnet on the rotor) by earthing one of the trigger wires your simply mimicking just that.

The pickup wires are not part of two separate circuits.

The two wires make one circuit between the box and pickup. The pickup coils are connected (in series) between the wires so both coils operate simultaneously therefore earthing either pickup wire should be all that's required.

My miss-understanding of how it works, but 1 failed magnet will stop it working. I found this out with my first and last Boyer.


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Look at the Boyer circuit,it's online somewhere, you'll see where the trigger wires connect.
Pulling the trigger lines high or low or shorting them will stop the unit.
A supply switch on any EI is only switching a very small current, maybe 0.05a so the switch
will oxidise in time unless gold flashed contacts are used or the switch is also carrying
a larger load to another device. That's why i don't like the cutout button used in the supply.
Just my2c

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Reaching behind your right leg to turn the ignition off when the throttle sticks open is challenging.

My mongrel 650 doesn't have an operational kill switch, it's on the list.

The endless "Captcha" crap is annoying.

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the pazon smartfire has a dedicated wire from the control box to use as a grounding kill switch. instructions say it doesn't work with positive ground.


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Originally Posted by Dibnah
The endless "Captcha" crap is annoying.


have you got cookies allowed? I don’t have this problem on my devices so maybe that or similar?


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Originally Posted by Dibnah
Reaching behind your right leg to turn the ignition off when the throttle sticks open is challenging.

My mongrel 650 doesn't have an operational kill switch, it's on the list.

The endless "Captcha" crap is annoying.


Neither does mine, just fix the carb......

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I have a 79 and the smartfire with the dedicated wire that Kevin is mentioning, but not connected; mainly because I do not know where to connect it (I do not have the internal parts of the handle bar kill switch if that makes any difference in that possible connection?); however, with the ignition switch between the clocks; with carburetors working properly and with new parts and no necessity to WOT I do not see a use for the kill switch. Possibly another thing to fail or to give a problem on the road (when I bought this bike had the kill wire disconnected and some tiny part inside the switch missed)
When a car hit me about 2 years ago I was there on the street unconscious so no opportunity to push the button but the engine at some point just stopped even the gearing...just do not know what happened actually now that I am thinking about it.
So, there s no point for the kill switch in most scenarios.

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DavidH Offline OP
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I've now installed the Pazon Sure Fire, wiring the kill switch as discussed: its two inputs connect to the Y/B and W/B wires between the control unit and the trigger plate. I can confirm that it works, and no damage to the ignition has appeared so far.

Thanks for the help!

Last edited by DavidH; 11/03/20 6:44 am.
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Originally Posted by Allan G
Originally Posted by Dibnah
The endless "Captcha" crap is annoying.


have you got cookies allowed? I don’t have this problem on my devices so maybe that or similar?

Thanks Allan, I've finally got off my backside to try and resolve this. Biscuits are allowed, others elsewhere have reported that "the shield within the Brave browser" can cause multiple captcha screens, this is apparently due to "> user tracking and fingerprinting, both things that Brave does its best to reduce or eliminate for privacy reasons. <" . Do I need my Whitworth spanners or my metric spanners to fix this?

I shall try and adjust the "shield" or possibly use another browser.

No changes so far, but only one captcha screen on this occasion (a bus)

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Originally Posted by DavidH
I've now installed the Pazon Sure Fire, wiring the kill switch as discussed: its two inputs connect to the Y/B and W/B wires between the control unit and the trigger plate. I can confirm that it works, and no damage to the ignition has appeared so far.

Thanks for the help!

Just out of curiosity, did Pazon ever get back to you?


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