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The way a man (or woman) responds to having his errors pointed out to him says volumes about his character.


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Except if he's a politician eh?

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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Did you guys who are so offended actually read all of the article? It does mention how the factory did sort out most of the
problems eventually. To me it reads just Iike article on any Brit bike, many problems that were never fully sorted out by the manufacturers. CBS is a decent vendor so let him have his opinion just like we all do..

Actually it reads like the trash that was printed in motorcycle magazines by repeaters who do not ride them.
There is a massive difference between the quality of the journalism pre WWII to post WWII and it did not get better.
Lots of supposed "editors & jornalist " had absolutely no understanding of engineering , metallurgy and very limited understanding of motorcycles.
Lots of them were general purpose writers who had to write one atricle a day / week / month for a variety of magazines from bird watching to fox hunting to military aircraft and what ever other title the publishers put out.
Down here the Writers for for one motorcycle magazine also wrote the cricket magazine & the surfing magazine so one would not expect them to be across everything that spewed out of their typewriters .
So you fill your article with commonly believed Urbam Myths and no one questions your knowledge or integrity.

Perfect example regularly tossed in here by the totally ignorant of what was then and still is current production line practice .
"the lathes were so old the calibration marking were totally worn off "

Well on production line lathes , there were never ever any calibration marks because they were set up by machine setters and ran between stops usually controlled phunamatically .
The "author had obviousl seen a friends 4th hand Myford ( bridgeport for USA readers ) and assumed the markings had worn off from use.
The idea that production line machines were regularly stripped down and rebuilt was of course also totally foreign to them.
And this remained for rpetition engineering till CNC started to take over in the 80's and real time computer control from 2000 on.

You will find lines similar to this in Bacon, Henshaw and the drip who published the BS article .

And of course the one I have just put an objection to
"Poxy pot mets " Monkey metal" and other such descriptions of the Mazark (patent in those days ) range of high strength high precision zinc die casting alloys .
The secondary reason for picking these alloys rather than the higher strength aluminium was the technical difficulties in casting aluminium in very thin wall sections and keeping Hydrogen out of the molten metal, a problem that zinc also suffers from but to a much lower extent.

No one makes any money casting process scrap full of gas porosity .
In the 50's 60's 70's & even the 80's there were thousands of papers written about this problem which was only really knocked on the head by some very expensive computer modeling of metal solidification in the mold and sofisticated cooling chills.


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Originally Posted by Nick H
The way a man (or woman) responds to having his errors pointed out to him says volumes about his character.

And Bacon ( or his publishers ) steadfasty refused to correct the myriad of mistakes in his BSA books over all of the reprints.


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Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
Originally Posted by Nick H
The way a man (or woman) responds to having his errors pointed out to him says volumes about his character.

And Bacon ( or his publishers ) steadfasty refused to correct the myriad of mistakes in his BSA books over all of the reprints.
If you think Roy Bacon wrote a hatchet job on A65s, you should read his Norton Commando book.

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Zinc oil pumps? In the USA ,automotive oil pumps were almost always made from cast or nodular iron. A few had the pumps built into the aluminum timing chain cover. These had a shorter iife until manufacturers learned to anodized the wear surfaces. Carburetors were mostly cast from zinc until the the mid 1950's when Carter starting casting with aluminum. New carbs today are primary aftermarket performance stuff cast or machied from aluminum..
British cars in this country had a reputation for being less reliable. This was not all just made up stories and to be truthful it was oten due to US divers lack of maintenance and abuse.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but many Australian built cars came from branches of GM and Ford, and the general designs were similar to US models including larger rugged OHV engines to suit the driving conditions.
Bikes? Bad reputations are not all made up stories. It's easy for enthusiasts to overlook pour quality control/design and find solutions . But many riders lack the skill...just read te forums here, same problems as 60 years ago, but we have better solutions now...
I always had good reliability from my Triumphs and one BSA because of driving second hand junk vehicles all my life and learned a few things to avoid trouble. Hell, I even had a 63 MGB for a number of years that was always reliable once I got rid of the few things causing the typical problems...


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“But I don't want to go among mad people,” Alice remarked. “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
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Originally Posted by Gary E
I concur with Jon. That website and CBS are two different entities.

Oh, sorry for the obfuscation! I don't know now why I thought this was about CBS' website.


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My 2c on BSA zinc oil pumps: For forty-some-odd years my two A65s suffered from wetsumping. Refreshing the check ball and spring and lapping the seat did not help. On the last rebuild of my bitsa six years ago, I installed a cast iron pump from a '71. The bike has not wetsumped since, even over the winter.


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The lapping of the ball should be done on the iron pumps Mark, for the Mazak pumps you are supposed to tap the ball into the surface to address the face issue.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
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Originally Posted by Allan G
The lapping of the ball should be done on the iron pumps Mark, for the Mazak pumps you are supposed to tap the ball into the surface to address the face issue.

the best way to do that is with a form relived slot drill (ball nose), the diameter of the ball obviously, but that is a major shag around needing a mill ect ......just only a small radius is enough so you don't interfere with the already marginal gasket best not tried by the average Joe as if you get chattering on the cut you have realy ****ed it.....use real low speed and just a touch .......give the spring a little bit of a stretch and Robert is your fathers brother

if you really want to get carried away polish the radius with some of that diamond paste known only to toolmakers ,,,,,,,,,,,that will give you bragging rights at the blowhard contest ..........opps i meant club meetings


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Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
"Poxy pot mets " Monkey metal" and other such descriptions of the Mazark (patent in those days ) range of high strength high precision zinc die casting alloys .
The secondary reason for picking these alloys rather than the higher strength aluminium was the technical difficulties in casting aluminium in very thin wall sections and keeping Hydrogen out of the molten metal, a problem that zinc also suffers from but to a much lower extent.
Bear in mind the BSA had been using Mazak-bodied geared oil pumps since at least the introduction of Val Page's M series singles in 1937, so were quite familiar with the technology and its characteristics. Like plain bearings, there should be no metal-to-metal contact during operation, so any wear will be due to contaminants in the oil.

Something which BSA didn't take into account with the twins (or probably didn't care about) was ham-fisted home mechanics over-tightening the retaining nuts and over-clamping the oil pump bodies onto gaskets installed onto poorly cleaned surfaces. This is a certain recipe for distortion, which is the main reported problem with the alloy oil pump bodies. This wasn't a problem with initial assembly because of the carefully calibrated wrists of the engine assemblers.

A similar problem exists with AMAL Concentric carburettors, which is why John Healey and others fabricate straightening jigs for them.

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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
British cars in this country had a reputation for being less reliable. This was not all just made up stories and to be truthful it was oten due to US divers lack of maintenance and abuse.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but many Australian built cars came from branches of GM and Ford, and the general designs were similar to US models including larger rugged OHV engines to suit the driving conditions.
Yes, in general Australian distances are similar to the US. Early post-war when General Motors - Holden started producing cars, Australian roads were similar to late pre-War US roads (and are probably 40 years behind the US currently). Temperature-wise, we tend to be warmer than most of the USA.

Apparently the original Holden 48-215 and subsequent FJ were based on a Chev rolling chassis and a Buick engine. They were quite reliable for their day, which is to say complete rubbish by 21st Century standards.

I could never understand why pre-Mini British cars were so woefully underpowered with hopeless cooling systems, but it became apparent driving in the UK at last year's BSA International. There just isn't anywhere to drive long distances at any speed, and a summer's day still required a T shirt flannelette shirt and often a jumper as well. Different conditions, so different requirements, and different solutions.

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Well i used to quite often do the run from London to Leeds and Preston at 100mph on the motorways.
Most of my colleagues and myself did 24-30,000 miles a year as our car leases were 2 year 60k ones.
Here people tend to jump on planes to go places which i prefer but few of the guys i know do 40-50k KM's a year in a car.
90-100mph was the normal motorway speed in the 80-90's. I've never been able to do that here 100km/hr is so boring,
it's no wonder people go to sleep and it takes so long to get anywhere.

Last edited by NickL; 10/04/20 3:12 am.
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Nick,
Yo need a pre WWII or C series where doing 100 Kph takes every bit of skill you can muster.


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Originally Posted by Allan G
The lapping of the ball should be done on the iron pumps Mark, for the Mazak pumps you are supposed to tap the ball into the surface to address the face issue.

Right, tapping... It's been so long since I tried to correct the problem I've forgotten. After that I modified my sump plate to include a drain plug. Anyway, I think that's beside the point; I was extolling the virtues of the cast iron pump.


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Originally Posted by Mark Z
My 2c on BSA zinc oil pumps: For forty-some-odd years my two A65s suffered from wetsumping. Refreshing the check ball and spring and lapping the seat did not help. On the last rebuild of my bitsa six years ago, I installed a cast iron pump from a '71. The bike has not wetsumped since, even over the winter.
I had the same experience, though not over nearly as many years. My '71 had the DD zinc pump, stamped with the date 3-71.
Finally found an iron pump and no more wet sumping.
Still doesn't deliver the pressure of the pump on my T120 though.


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In short, you replaced one 50 year old pump with another 50 year old pump made of better quality metal.
Did you rebuild the replacement pump properly? Do you know the state of the engine it came off? It could
have been pumping metal swarf and crap around for 35 years of it's 50 year life.

Your triumph pump does not have to supply a bush type crank feed, if it did i suspect it would struggle to
achieve the figures you see on an a65.

Anyway lets drop all this, what's the bike like to ride now? or do you still want to sell it?

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The pump was filthy when I got it. I disassembled, thoroughly cleaned and checked operation before installing. The iron pump actually spins with no sign of binding, unlike the old pump.
Originally Posted by NickL
Your triumph pump does not have to supply a bush type crank feed, if it did i suspect it would struggle to
achieve the figures you see on an a65.
Precisely why Triumph abandoned the crankshaft bushing.

I've only ridden the A65 around the neighborhood. The next trip will be around the lake. I'll make longer trips until I know it's reliable.
Probably sell it come Spring, my carport is very crowded with four bikes. Probably let the Beemer go too.


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I bought a '70 A65 from the junk yard for $300, rebuilt it and drove from Minnesota to Long Island and back (except had an ignition hickup in Wisconsin which resulted in a burnt valve in Ohio, stopped in a shop, took the head off, they replaced the valve and ground the seat, back on my way in a couple hours) and another trip from Minnesota to Banff and back (this time with no problems) all with the original Mazak pump. It was my college transportation. Why do you think they are unreliable?

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They’re not unreliable, but an unknown bike is an unknown bike.

The sensible approach is to test it on short hops and extend it as it becomes less “unknown”.

It hasn’t come straight from the manufacturer.


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Originally Posted by DMadigan
I bought a '70 A65 from the junk yard for $300, rebuilt it and drove from Minnesota to Long Island and back (except had an ignition hickup in Wisconsin which resulted in a burnt valve in Ohio, stopped in a shop, took the head off, they replaced the valve and ground the seat, back on my way in a couple hours) and another trip from Minnesota to Banff and back (this time with no problems) all with the original Mazak pump. It was my college transportation. Why do you think they are unreliable?

I didn't say the zinc pumps are unreliable; I just said they're prone to wetsumping after some wear. Wetsumping in BSAs occurs when the bike is sitting idle, not while running, so you would not have noticed a problem on your trek across the country even if there were one. BTW, the engine I took the cast iron pump from has enough wear on it that the crank would require a re-grind if it were to be rebuilt.

Good story though!


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Originally Posted by Ginge
They’re not unreliable, but an unknown bike is an unknown bike.

The sensible approach is to test it on short hops and extend it as it becomes less “unknown”.

It hasn’t come straight from the manufacturer.
Nothing to do with the brand, I treat all these nearly 50 year old machines as suspect until they prove otherwise. Cell reception is spotty outside of town, and I've nobody at home to call for rescue anyway except for AMA.
However, the A65 is particularly suspect. The engine was rebuilt, with the machine work being done by shops which don't specialize in these engines. I'd feel better if I could afford to pack the whole thing off to EdV in a box filled with money, but the bike simply is not worth that much to me.


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Time to have some faith in your own ability David, you've built
enough of these old heaps to know you can put them together
reliably. You tackle trident stuf so an old a65 should be easy.

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Should be, but a Trident doesn't use crank shims, and the small ends have no bushings to line ream to fit the pins. That and the last Trident engine I built was only eight years old at the time.
I rode the A65 round the lake today and it pulls strong. I might need new shock rubbers in the clutch. Also, it takes two prods to get first gear while the bike is rolling. Gotta check that stupid eccentric on the spring. mad
Sounds a bit louder than the T120, even with identical silencers. Might just be that I must keep the revs up more on the A65, kinda like the Trident it doesn't like to drop below 4K.


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Yes, BSA, at least A10 's are not that difficult.....I do spend the money to have the timing the bush line honed and I believe the rod small bushes should be honed on a rod reconditioning machine.Crank shims are done during a dry assembly mock up...
You don't have to be this fussy but it doesn't hurt if you have time and a few extra bucks.


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons..
“But I don't want to go among mad people,” Alice remarked. “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
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