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Re: clutch slips
splash #824646 09/24/20 11:10 am
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Originally Posted by splash
Originally Posted by TR7RVMan
We'll see the condition of parts after splash posts them.

I posted 6 new pics above. Did you miss them?

Koan, or someone, what is a way to hold the clutch basket when torquing down the main shaft nut?


To tighten the clutch / mainshaft nut, put the gearbox in top gear and lock the rear wheel. The brake will very likely not be powerful enough - you need to torque that nut to 75 ft/lb. You can jam the chain against the rear sprocket using something like a plastic wedge (tree felling wedges are excellent for this).


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Re: clutch slips
splash #824659 09/24/20 2:56 pm
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To hold the hub when torquing the nut, take a couple of old drive and driven plates, bolt them together and add a handle on a chord line offset from centre.You can use it whilst torquing the engine sprocket also.

Re: clutch slips
DMadigan #824664 09/24/20 4:03 pm
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Originally Posted by Tigernuts
you need to torque that nut to 75 ft/lb.

50, according to the relevant manual.


Originally Posted by DMadigan
To hold the hub when torquing the nut, take a couple of old drive and driven plates, bolt them together and add a handle on a chord line offset from centre.You can use it whilst torquing the engine sprocket also.


And for the odd few Triumph owners who don't happen to keep a stock of old clutch plates then there's a locking plate.

https://www.classicbritishspares.co...3768-bsa-twins-500-650-t100-t120-a50-a65

Re: clutch slips
splash #824695 09/24/20 8:23 pm
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The use of the rear brake in top gear to hold the mainshaft while tightening the nut is what I’ve used most times over the years on my bitsa.
I’ve never checked it with a torque wrench (my sin) but just done it up as tight as I could until the brake started slipping, then just shocked the spanner with a hammer a few times for good measure. Then bent over the lock washer tabs.
In 40 years, I’ve not had the nut loosen, and it is a standard nut as fitted since time immemorial.
I’m not suggesting that this is the way you should do it, it is just my single experience.
I certainly knew I was getting it about as tight as an average human could with an ordinary socket bar.

Why would that nut come loose, assuming it was well tightened in the first place?
The nut (and possibly a lockwasher) merely bear on a very stiff, thick washer that in turn bears on the ends of the internal splines of the spider, thus clamping the spider firmly against the step of the centre hub (splines connect both of these items).
If you find any noticeable slack in that spline connection, it will allow fore/aft relative movement that could loosen the nut.
But it maybe just that the nut wasn’t quite tight enough in the first place.

I don’t see any obvious connection between the loose main nut (from what I understand it wasn’t obviously loose anyway, just easily released) and the 3 screws coming undone at the back of the shock hub.
I think that is most likely simply due to not getting the 3 screws tight and secured at the last assembly (possibly related to the difficulty of getting the rubbers fully in).
Is it possible that the rubbers were still slightly protruding from the hub when the backplate was screwed on? This may deceive into thinking the resistance of the screws meant that the plate was fully home? Just a thought.

The way to install the rubbers fully and easily has been described by DMadigan (and myself some posts ago, though mine doesn’t assume you’ve got a gearbox mainshaft kicking about to stick in the vice. Though the method can be used on the bike, using the rear brake as the vice.

The really useful tool is the one Don described, which is effectively
https://www.classicbritishspares.co...3768-bsa-twins-500-650-t100-t120-a50-a65
with a handle attached. This can deal with all your engine/gearbox nut tightening situations, (other than the main gearbox sprocket nut) as well as making installation of clutch rubbers easy.
They are usually made from a couple of old plates, a couple of tube spacers and a bit of bar, oh and 2 nuts and bolts.
The handle makes a big difference to usefulness, without it the locking disc merely allows the use of the disc with the rear brake to tighten nuts.
With it, all nuts can be tightened independently of the rest of the bike (say an engine on the bench).

I’m not keen on the idea of wedges between chains and sprockets or between cam gear wheels (to lock them), the enormous axial forces exerted on the shafts makes me uncomfortable. Maybe I’m just too sensitive to my old metal?!

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Re: clutch slips
koan58 #824699 09/24/20 8:56 pm
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Originally Posted by koan58
I’ve never checked it with a torque wrench (my sin) but just done it up as tight as I could until the brake started slipping, then just shocked the spanner with a hammer a few times for good measure. Then bent over the lock washer tabs.


Why would that nut come loose, assuming it was well tightened in the first place?
The nut (and possibly a lockwasher) merely bear on a very stiff, thick washer that in turn bears on the ends of the internal splines of the spider, thus clamping the spider firmly against the step of the centre hub (splines connect both of these items).

There's no tab washer from mid-'67. The clutch securing nut and washer were also changed (after DU 48144).

Re: clutch slips
splash #824704 09/24/20 9:12 pm
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Not sure where I got 75 ft/lb from, if 50 is what the manual says, but that's the figure I've been using for quite a few years. i actually deleted all the stuff I'd typed about making a locking plate from old plates bolted together, because i thought it made my reply too long. It's fine to lock the clutch that way, of course, but you then also need to lock the whole primary drive from turning, either by locking the engine (bar through small eds, spare crank pinion between a camshaft gear and the idler wheel, or a rag or wedge between the primary chain & crankshaft sprocket). Using the gearbox & final drive is much simpler to explain, and to do.


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Re: clutch slips
splash #824713 09/24/20 9:36 pm
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Hey all, thanks for all the great advice once again. I'll get it done soon now. I just need to sort it out one step at a time.


1970 Triumph tiger owner
Re: clutch slips
splash #824716 09/24/20 10:19 pm
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“i actually deleted all the stuff I'd typed about making a locking plate from old plates bolted together, because i thought it made my reply too long. It's fine to lock the clutch that way, of course, but you then also need to lock the whole primary drive from turning, either by locking the engine (bar through small eds, spare crank pinion between a camshaft gear and the idler wheel, or a rag or wedge between the primary chain & crankshaft sprocket)”

I think we’re saying many of the same things here TN, that tool is so much more useful if 2 bolts connect to handle, then it can be held or stopped from moving by a footrest or the floor.
Then the engine is locked for tightening of the various nuts, with no need for the rods to be exposed (barrels off).

I’ve no problem with the use of a spare crank pinion between cam and idler wheel, as that spreads the forces between the centres, but a rag or wedge between chain/sprocket, whether it be the engine, clutch, gearbox or rear sprocket, is placing horrible axial loads on that shaft.
In the case of the cam gears and intermediate timing wheel (idler) shaft, it will loosen that shaft in the crankcase, then you will be landed in a difficult situation.

While I don’t like the idea of this wedging force being applied to any shafts, don’t wedge a rear chain against a sprocket/brake drum, it will be distorted beyond recovery.
This probably doesn’t apply to your situation Splash, as it does to my Norton one.

Re: clutch slips
splash #824733 09/25/20 4:58 am
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Hi splash, Took my old worn cush hub apart just now. Removed rubbers, reassembled & marked where the spider sits with rubbers installed so end play is real time measurement. Meaning the arms are where the wear marks are on back plate.

I had .008" deep wear where spider arms were. I sanded back plate for 2 hrs to get wear to .004" & gave up. Was close enough. Then I assembled with new rubbers. Road tested several hundred miles& determined it was improved, but not enough. I decided to replace at that time.

The end play as is after the filing is .019" New is closer to .003" on the new LF Harris unit.

Remember rubbers removed... If I push the spider towards back plate the end of spline sticks up above the back plate .025". Tip: find a socket diameter such it fits into spider, but won't go through splines. Stick socket in & set on bench socket down. Gravity holds drum down so it's easier to measure protrusion of spline.

Setting unit on bench front plate down, the spider falls by gravity. It measures .006" protrusion now. On the new on protrusion was about .006".

What does yours measure with cush rubbers out? Or even now, with back plate screws tightened.

At the same time old unit in vise using 2 sockets. The wobble is great, just under 1/16". This means wear on the bores of end plates & the OD of spider where supported by plates, as well as spider arm sides. The wear in bore of hardened back plate is minimal. Clearance aprox. .002" spider is worn out of round there. There is small step worn in bore of front plate, both bore & nose of spider in bore is worn out of round. Clearance about.003-.0035".

You can feel a trace of wobble on new hub, but very minimal. I specifically paid attention to before & after as I was curious as to what wear feels like grabbing parts & wiggling them.

Again, the spider is fixed tight to main shaft via the small hub & main shaft nut. The clutch springs pull back plate to left side of machine. The wear in spider & back plate adds to end play of basket giving basket more wobble with clutch released. With motor running & primaryfiller plug out, you can plainly see the basket move to left when pulling clutch with all the wear. The chain & everything just moves. With all new parts it has slight movement.

I know for certain all the excess play contributes to clutch drag. I put cush hub in vise with my holding tool. Then compressed the rubbers with the clutch plate tool. I can see as the rubbers compress it doesn't compress evenly as I'd expected. It wants to cant the drum. Of course I may be pulling crooked, but trying best I could to pull straight. Anyway I'm wondering if when the rubbers compress they push the drum unevenly. Rubbers are not centered in the turning force. The play in spider allows drum to cant very slightly separating plates slightly. Could be nonsense, but there are complaints of this, when clutch plates are not worn, spring tension correct. Just a little slip under heavy load. Tightening springs doesn't seem to correct slip as expected... I don't know.

At the end of the day, what is your end play? What is protrusion out of back plate? What is the wobble? These will get you into trouble. If not to bad, you could expect further good operation.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: clutch slips
splash #824734 09/25/20 5:17 am
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Hi Koan58, I agree 100%. Timing gear in cam gears doesn't seem to cause problems.

Stuffing rags is possibly the worst. Several cases have been fractured.

Next worse its the blocks between chain & sprockets. They are sold for Harleys. Can be used for Triumphs. Maybe ok for Harleys, but I'd never use one on my Triumph. No reason to. Just get or make a clutch locking plate & put a handle on it. Done, quick & easy to use. Holds for both trans & crank sprockets.

Skilled mechanics can get away with not using torque wrench. Most owners have no clue as to feel of 50#. Funny thing, all the good mechanics at work always use torque wrench on sensitive fasteners. Why wouldn't you? They simply don't mess around. No guess work!

Depending on your rear brake it holds good or not. Thing is on left foot brake, you have the rod loose to get primary cover off.

Another thing, if you torque against a spongy shaft like partly slipping brake, it makes it hard for torque wrench to get accurate, click or reading. It wants an even steady pull. Any slip, then pull again can result in false (low) torque. Jerking torque wrench or very quickly torqueing results in false (low) torque. You see this jerking all the time at tire shops. That's not right.

The nice thing about the clutch holding tool with handle is it allows you to counter hold one hand, torque wrench in the other. Holder tool handle on floor works good too. I have various lengths of pipe "cheater handles". Makes it safe & simple.

Even the very low cost bending beam torque wrenches work good. They are primitive, but usually more accurate than cheapo digital or click type. You must counter hold clutch very steady & read pointer with straight on view. They hold accuracy for years too, so long as not taken over the range on scale.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: clutch slips
splash #824737 09/25/20 5:43 am
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Hello; I have two questions regarding what you guys mentioned:

What is the difference that the long bar attached to the plates as a locking tool does?
Why the 750 manual specify 70ft lb for that nut (50 for the engine nut)? I mean; why they decided to add more if the clutch is the same?

Thanks

Re: clutch slips
koan58 #824755 09/25/20 11:08 am
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I've only use the wedge between chain & rear sprocket with an old chain, as I dislike the strain that is put on the chain by this. I got the idea from a Harley owner - never thought it wouldn't work equally well on a Triumph. It hasn't done mine any harm anyway.

The clutch locking tool made from old plates with a really long handle that can jam against the floor is an excellent idea - I'll be making one of these. Much kinder to every component.


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Re: clutch slips
splash #824773 09/25/20 3:14 pm
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Rather than wedges, a simple tool for holding the gearbox sprocket can be made from an old piece of chain and bar. Use enough chain to go around a 21 tooth sprocket (the largest that will fit through the door). A quality #10 screw with part thread replaces the master link. Put the screw link on the slack side.
https://www.triumphrat.net/attachments/sprocketlock-jpg.736632
(I am cheating here using Triumphrat.net to host the picture. Simple drag and drop to post, copy picture link and paste it here)

Re: clutch slips
splash #824785 09/25/20 6:42 pm
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Hi, Holding tear sprocket is easy. The tool is called chain whip. Motion pro & others sell them.

I made mine from 10” length 1/2” galvanized pipe. Flatten one end with hammer. File or grind end as needed to fit inside chain. Drill hole & attach chain with master link or rivet the ends of a pressed out link.

Length of chain matters. You wrap chain around sprocket such the chain overlaps 3-4 links. This way the handle never touches sprocket. No force is near end of tooth so no chance of damage to sprocket.

The short handle allows easy fitment with motor, wheel, chain guard in place. Then use various lengths of 3/8” drive extensions for leverage to hold tool. Easy fit into pipe.

This works well on both OIF & dry frames. Allows safe firm hold for both loosening & tightening.

I have some extra short sections of chain to add for larger sprockets as needed. Connect with master link.

When nut is loose or tight just pull it out.

I made it 1970 when I was at Harley dealer. First use on Triumph was my ‘70 TR6C in early ‘71 putting on 20T.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: clutch slips
TR7RVMan #824803 09/25/20 8:47 pm
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how can you not like a tool thats called "Barbie stairs"
[Linked Image from cdn.shopify.com]

Re: clutch slips
splash #824806 09/25/20 9:08 pm
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...if you are adjusting the clutch nut you do not need those chains. Why remove the final chain etc? What s the point. We are talking about adjusting the clutch nut and the clutch nut say 70ftlb for the 750s hence the question about why they decided to change the number if the clutch is the same.

Re: clutch slips
splash #824819 09/26/20 12:12 am
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Hi quinten, Yes, that's one of the chain blockers. Those things scare me to death. The forces are horrendous. You can mess around & break the case at the bottom or the front tensioner bracket in case. Sure they work, but in my mind there is never a good enough reason to use one.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: clutch slips
splash #824820 09/26/20 12:16 am
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Hi reverb, Holding the main shaft from turning to torque the clutch center nut I think is the connection. That led to holding gear box sprocket as threads take on a life of their own.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: clutch slips
splash #824825 09/26/20 4:13 am
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No matter what tools you use it still takes three hands to hold them. laughing


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

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92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
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Re: clutch slips
splash #825510 10/03/20 5:25 am
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https://ibb.co/2PPM80d
https://ibb.co/rf82VpP

I started reassembly today. I used grease last time but this time I was afraid of the centrifugal force flinging it into clutch basket. I went dry and it sure took a form of art to do. However, the thrust washer has my concern because I believe there is enough play to cause it to possibly fall as in the picture behind the rollers. Is there a video upload that ya'll know of to use? It's only 20 seconds long of the play in the basket after shock absorber unit was installed.

Last edited by splash; 10/03/20 5:44 am.

1970 Triumph tiger owner
Re: clutch slips
TR7RVMan #825512 10/03/20 7:26 am
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Originally Posted by TR7RVMan
Hi, Holding tear sprocket is easy. The tool is called chain whip. Motion pro & others sell them.

I made mine from 10” length 1/2” galvanized pipe. Flatten one end with hammer. File or grind end as needed to fit inside chain. Drill hole & attach chain with master link or rivet the ends of a pressed out link.

Length of chain matters. You wrap chain around sprocket such the chain overlaps 3-4 links. This way the handle never touches sprocket. No force is near end of tooth so no chance of damage to sprocket.

The short handle allows easy fitment with motor, wheel, chain guard in place. Then use various lengths of 3/8” drive extensions for leverage to hold tool. Easy fit into pipe.

This works well on both OIF & dry frames. Allows safe firm hold for both loosening & tightening.

I have some extra short sections of chain to add for larger sprockets as needed. Connect with master link.

When nut is loose or tight just pull it out.

I made it 1970 when I was at Harley dealer. First use on Triumph was my ‘70 TR6C in early ‘71 putting on 20T.
Don

Don, you can't post that without a photo of your creation!

I've used a strap wrench for holding a clutch basket, and locked the clutch with something, perhaps a clutch locking plate as mentioned above. This was a few decades ago with an AJS Stormer

[Linked Image from ajs-shop.co.uk]

Re: clutch slips
splash #825527 10/03/20 12:46 pm
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Google P 80 rubber lubricant.
Tried to send a link but it did not work
P 80 is far superior to grease.

found this;
https://www.fagengine.com/collections/tools/products/p-80-emulsion-temporary-rubber-lubricant

Last edited by desco; 10/03/20 2:32 pm. Reason: change

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1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
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Re: clutch slips
splash #825543 10/03/20 7:11 pm
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Hi Splash, Grease is commonly used. You don’t need a lot, just enough to hold thrust washer & rollers in place. The rollers & thrust washer needs lube. I’ve used Pennzoil wheel bearing grease dozens of times without slipping. Doing experiments with clutches I find the grease stays in many hundreds of miles. This bearing gets much oil during operation.

I would most strongly recommend squirting oil down rear of basket & in between basket & cush hub. That is if not too late.

What did you end up doing with cush hub? New screws or new hub?

Did you get use new thrust washer?

Be sure to use the 1.400” formula for spring tension to assure springs are at optimal tension.

Stack all 12 plates together. Squeeze them tight with fingers & measure. Suppose you get 1.350”. .050” than 1.400”.

Tighten nuts to studs flush with dome of nut. Go .050” deeper.
I can promise you follow the formula & it will work good.

Of course you’ll have adjust rod after you true plate. .

Readjust rod after 20-50 miles. The plates settle in about then.
DonAdjust again in another 50 miles. Should be good to go after that, adjusting rod every oil change.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: clutch slips
splash #825557 10/03/20 9:58 pm
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Hi TR7RVMan;

What is that formula that you are mentioning?

Thanks

Re: clutch slips
splash #825559 10/03/20 10:35 pm
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Hi Reverb, The 1.400” stack height of all the plates. That’s the formula for spring tension.
This doesn’t apply to the late T140 where friction pads are bonded to the inside of basket.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
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