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Electrex World ignition/alternator on pre unit 650
#824439 09/22/20 10:23 am
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I'm debating weather to repair and replace my magneto on my 1960, 650 triumph T110 or to replace it with the Electrex World ignition and alternator system . Interested to hear from anyone that has tried this combination on a pre unit bike , good/bad listed detailed result's would be greatly appreciated. The bike does have a battery and lights but will not be operating it at night so limited generation output would not be an issue for me.

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Re: Electrex World ignition/alternator on pre unit 650
billygmd #824448 09/22/20 12:35 pm
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Don't debate, just do not consider it, waste of money and time.

Quote
I am really disappointed with the Electrex World STK-102D-DC kit – what looks on a page as a great solution has turned out to be a really poorly executed box of bits.

Not only are the instructions very poor (and we are pretty competent in the workshop) but the service from Electrex World has been absolutely disgusting.

This product is not fit for purpose.

https://granttiller.com/electrex-world-unboxing-fitting-opinions

1 member likes this: Allan G
Re: Electrex World ignition/alternator on pre unit 650
kommando #824459 09/22/20 2:35 pm
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Thanks for your in-depth reply. I will not be going with the Electrex world system. I am interested in hearing more about the system you did select in the end and thanking you in advance.

Re: Electrex World ignition/alternator on pre unit 650
billygmd #824465 09/22/20 3:55 pm
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Not my writeup.

Re: Electrex World ignition/alternator on pre unit 650
billygmd #824468 09/22/20 4:32 pm
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A buddy of mine in Israel just fitted a EW unit on a Triumph pre-unit twin

It can be done!

Cheers


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Re: Electrex World ignition/alternator on pre unit 650
kommando #824469 09/22/20 4:39 pm
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I had same trouble starting the bike with a Norton Commando, Same invisible spark at plugs. Also, it would die at idle on a trip and very hard to re-start. Ran well over idle speed. Also the stand-offs for the unit in the primary needed modification. Vendor would not take it back. Name has been mentioned in this thread

Re: Electrex World ignition/alternator on pre unit 650
billygmd #824477 09/22/20 5:55 pm
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I'm sure 99% of the time Elextrex World stuff works just fine, apart from the aforementioned lack of lighting power, but I personally know three people who have had various reasons to need some technical assistance from the company, and absolutely none has been forthcoming. In stating the same thing on several other forums, it seems that this is normal, ie if it doesn't work, or you don't quite understand, HARD LUCK!



Re: Electrex World ignition/alternator on pre unit 650
billygmd #824478 09/22/20 6:14 pm
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Fitted one to a friends bantam which was supposed to have fixed ignition timing. This thing did worse, it retarded the ignition as revs increased, not good! Completely blued up the new exhaust pipe. The bike had a Pazon on it before and it always ran fine, she was pursaded to go for this system as it would “make starting easier”.... it didn’t! The Pazon went back on and the thoughts of me ever fitting one to one of my bikes (considered fitting one to the race A65) quickly passed.

You will not go wrong with a properly built magneto.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: Electrex World ignition/alternator on pre unit 650
billygmd #824481 09/22/20 6:49 pm
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Depending on bike usage then an option is magneto, LED lighting and a good battery running constant loss. Just charge the battery once in while and make sure that the battery is disconnected when not in use.

Tractors!

Re: Electrex World ignition/alternator on pre unit 650
billygmd #824489 09/22/20 8:11 pm
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I can’t see the logic in using this system on a Commando, or any other side points/alternator engine (so most engines after the early 60’s).
These all use readily replaceable/upgradeable alternators and charging components, and also readily replaceable/upgradeable ignition components.

I think the potential market for systems like the Electrex is primarily on a pre-unit where the magneto requires reconditioning. Getting this done properly can be a considerable expense.

I myself baulked at this in 1981, and chose the Mistral Lucas Rita magneto replacement option. This was about half the expense of a magneto recon at the time (and reading about magneto recons subsequently, I’m unsure that spending the money on the magneto would have been the best use of my scarce dosh).
It wasn’t important to me to retain the original magneto as my bike is a bitsa.

Problems after 30 years caused me to replace that setup with a magneto replacement body from Norvil (they are available from several sources) which allows the fitment of any of the common EI’s, or even contact breakers.

The additional ~40W load does require a decent alternator system, if you want to use lights. A high output RM24 system would sort it nicely.
As you don’t intend using lights, your original alternator will probably get by, but you will need to convert to 12V (cheap reg/rec, battery, bulbs).
I would do it properly, but it depends on your intentions with the bike.

As the Electrex system only supplies ~65Wmax at higher rpm, it can only hope to power a low wattage headlamp bulb (say 35W) with tail/ancilliary (say 10W) brightly at above ~3000rpm.
Even your original alternator (assuming the rotor still has reasonable magnetic strength) would give approaching 100W in a 12V system.

There were a few aspects of the review that I thought a little unfair to Electrex.
There must be many users running about with these systems by now, surely, accepting their power limitations, but running? I find it hard to believe that such things would be on the market for such a long time which didn’t perform their basic function.
Don’t get me wrong, this is not a system for a practical road bike, but for a road legal off-road bike, it could be the answer.

The spark is hard to observe because with CDI it is extremely brief (compared to conventional Kettering).
This feature can make CDI unsuitable for some engine combustion conditions, where a longer duration of spark gives a greater chance for an ignitable mixture to be near the electrodes.
I recall CDI being introduced big-time in the later 70’s Jap 2-strokes, as it broke through the fouling of plugs by oil.

CDI for 4-stroke engines has often included “multi-spark” which gives several sparks sequentially, in a way emulating the length of a conventional spark, especially at low starting rpm when the mixture is least atomised.
I have no idea if the Electrex system employs such technology, I am doubtful.

The HPI instructions do say:
“Do NOTextend cables, this may cause interference and damage to the CDI or the engine”
While I don’t think that any extension of charging cables will matter at all, the cables between ignition trigger and CDI, and CDI to coil may be more significant.
The cables from the alternator coil to the CDI then to the coil need to be carefully matched, and avoid proximity (not running anywhere near) to the generator wires.
According to the story, all these wires were considerably extended.

The author describes the pathetic illumination of the headlamp when running very rough. I can’t imagine (and hope) that wasn’t at any great rpm.
Without knowing the expected demand (ie the wattages of the bulbs), this doesn’t mean much at all).
Of course, not much can be expected of 65W maximum output.

Only the 5 Kohms of either the caps or plugs should be used, not both as the author experimented with.

“Note: don’t expect to see 12 volts on these (the coil has a primary side resistance of on 0.6 ohms, which is very very low, so my guess is it will only ever receive just a few volts from the CDI unit)”
The author doesn’t understand CDI, it is a high voltage, very brief pulse through a low resistance coil, but you won’t notice it with a meter, only an oscilloscope.

What are your requirements? Do you need to keep a magneto (in appearance)? Or do you want a working system regardless?

Best of.

Re: Electrex World ignition/alternator on pre unit 650
billygmd #824567 09/23/20 4:53 pm
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I want the bike to appear stock so mag will remain installed in one form or another. My priority is to have the bike start easily and remain reliable. I am not as convinced as some others that a rebuilt mag will do that on an on going basis. Lucas magnetos are poor quality items as compared to what we are use to today. When was the last time you heard of a 2015 Triumph motorcycle having electrical problems in the first 50,000 miles of it's life? It's not lost on me that a 1960 T110 is a weak link in itself compared to modern machinery but I willingly will take on that challenge as long as there is spark at the plugs.

Re: Electrex World ignition/alternator on pre unit 650
billygmd #824573 09/23/20 5:47 pm
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That puts a different complexion on it.

As keeping the magneto (at least for appearance) is important, that puts a reconditioning high on the list of solutions.
Apart from the considerable cost, the big problem is being confident that the “restoration” will actually properly address the main issues of an ancient magneto.

I advise having a look at Magnetoman’s thread:

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbt...g-a-rotating-armature-magneto#Post446733

Not all magneto restorers will be up to that standard, but will still charge a small fortune.
It will give you some ideas for questions to ask of a restorer, to gauge whether you will get value for money, particularly about the condenser which is very likely to need replacement, and re-magnetization issues.

Alternatively, I have seen mention of EI’s that fit inside the K2F body, and even a simulated K2F that has self-generating EI within it, but I haven’t any links for these.
Hopefully others will step in.

The Lucas magneto wasn’t as bad as you seem to think, it is only the passing of many decades that maybe gives them an air of unreliability now.

I wonder how many 2015 bikes will still be in use in 2075?

Re: Electrex World ignition/alternator on pre unit 650
billygmd #824576 09/23/20 6:16 pm
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I believe most Elextrex World systems are bought by pre 65 trials people, who do not require the lighting facility, at least in the UK.
Maybe we have a 21st Century Prince of Darkness???



Re: Electrex World ignition/alternator on pre unit 650
billygmd #824590 09/23/20 8:05 pm
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If you get the mag properly rebuilt and you take even minimal care of it, it will probably be still giving out nice strong sparks long after your bike's engine needs another re-build.

Ed from NJ

2 members like this: Allan G, Jon W. Whitley
Re: Electrex World ignition/alternator on pre unit 650
billygmd #824714 09/24/20 9:39 pm
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@koan58 sorry you don't feel the author of the blog post doesn't understand CDI.

As the author, I beg to differ.


We have another Norton with a modern BT-H "Magneto" on it - it is actually a CDI electronic ignition under the covers, and it is superb.
We also have a Honda CX500 (excuse my swear words) - again with CDI ignition.
I spend a lot of my time working on bikes, and helping people with their electrical issues, so am pretty familiar with it all.


I tried different caps, plugs, leads as recommended by various people - one of them HPI, the actual manufacturer of the CDI unit itself.
They also said that extending the cables by a few centimetres wouldn't be an issue - in fact their own kits have longer cables.
The wire length that Electrex supplied was not suitable for the bike, as they were not long enough to reach from the crankshaft, out of the back of the primary case and up the frame rail to under the seat, and I was not prepared to velcro them to the side of the oil tank, which is where the standard cables got me!

I certainly wasn't expecting to see 12 volts at the coil - and didn't infer I was in my blog post.
The coil was supplied in the Electrex kit and was indeed a 0.6Ω twin output micro coil.

However, 12 volts at the reg/rec to power the lights OR the horn would have been great - the headlamp was the original 40 watt prefocus bulb.
With the engine at 3,000rpm the headlamp glowed a dull yellow, and the horn at best farted.
At 1,000rpm idle both were inoperable.


I have no doubt that the Electrex kit is perfect for trials bikes etc...
And as a CDI only solution, HPI seems like a good solution (this part is not made by Electrex)
But I do absolutely believe that it is not suited to the primary gearing of the Norton twin, which is what makes it nigh on impossible to start.


Their customer service was just utterly disgusting - check their Facebook page for other people's opinions on that.


If anyone has any questions about the kit, I am more than happy to share my experience.
But please don't bitch about me and my level of knowledge.

Re: Electrex World ignition/alternator on pre unit 650
billygmd #824719 09/24/20 11:31 pm
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Grant, I have no wish to bitch either, but as you have picked me up on my comments, I must respond.

This is what you said in your post on Britbike yesterday.

“I certainly wasn't expecting to see 12 volts at the coil - and didn't infer I was in my blog post.
The coil was supplied in the Electrex kit and was indeed a 0.6Ω twin output micro coil.”


This is what you said in your original article, that I was referring to:

“I put the multimeter across the low tension side of the coil, and could see there was a voltage reading as we were kicking the engine over, again confirming that something was coming from the alternator iva the CDI unit.
Note: don’t expect to see 12 volts on these (the coil has a primary side resistance of on 0.6 ohms, which is very very low, so my guess is it will only ever receive just a few volts from the CDI unit”

It was that last paragraph that caused me to say what I said about the author not understanding CDI. Because that is just not the way a coil in CDI works.

I have no reason to question your general competence, but in this you were incorrect.
The coil will receive a very brief, high voltage pulse from the CDI, not just a few volts.
I did explain why that might be difficult to observe in my earlier post.

Re: Electrex World ignition/alternator on pre unit 650
billygmd #824721 09/24/20 11:42 pm
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Might have something to do with digital multimeters (if this is what was used) being RMS and not peak voltage, the voltage sent is very brief, an oscilloscope might show it up when running (but how many have one of those) or an analogue multimeter May for that brief moment show a voltage peak up on the scale.

I’m not knocking anyone’s electrical knowledge here, just speculating why a low voltage may have been seen.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: Electrex World ignition/alternator on pre unit 650
billygmd #824726 09/25/20 2:21 am
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The difference is fundamentally that “conventional” ignitions have dwell, which is a period in which say the contact breaker is closed (or in EI the output transistor is conducting) so the coil is charging with current, until suddenly switched off by either the breaker opening or the EI turning off the output transistor.

This system requires that just 12V has enough time (dwell) to charge the ignition coils (reach a high enough current through the coils) by the time the points (or EI) turn it off. Then a decent spark is generated by the field collapse in the coil. That is Kettering.

CDI is entirely different. It doesn’t charge the ignition coil for field collapse at all.
It uses the coil as a transformer, and puts a very brief high voltage pulse (the discharge of the capacitor) through the primary, which results in an equally brief and enormous rise in voltage to the sparkplug.

The coil is performing a very different function in CDI compared to a kettering system, it has to transform a high voltage, modest current into a very high voltage, tiny current (which is the spark).

There is no dwell in CDI (its all about capacitor charging time), it is more difficult to diagnose faults, it must be done by substitution, or by oscilloscope, or someone like NickL perchance.
You will never see what is going on in a CDI with a plain multimeter, apart from the most basic faults.

I enjoyed CDI for many years with my old GT500 Suzuki, though it went a bit flakey for a while. Then I found the plastic coating of the coil had developed a small split, letting moisture in. That was my theory anyway, so I low cooked the coil in the oven to dry it out, and gave it lots of sprays of a varnish I happened to have, repeatedly when hot so it would be drawn into the coil as it cooled.
Perhaps I have the luck of the devil, but it worked for at least 5 years till I gave the bike away, still running but shagged.

Please excuse the rambling, I’ve been fed a little juice!

Re: Electrex World ignition/alternator on pre unit 650
billygmd #824750 09/25/20 9:35 am
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I usually rely on an analogue multimeter when I'm working on bikes.

[Linked Image from granttiller.com]

It's a lot easier to spot a needle kick, even momentarily than it is to see a digital display with an expectation of seeing something useful on the readout.

Furthermore, the coil and needle on an analogue meter act as a good buffer for EMI and RFI related symptoms that provide erroneous readings on a digital - even a good quality Fluke.

The reference in my blog post:

Quote
I put the multimeter across the low tension side of the coil, and could see there was a voltage reading as we were kicking the engine over, again confirming that something was coming from the alternator iva the CDI unit.

...indicated that I was seeing something positive coming out of the system - that it was functioning, and was not dead.

The Note I made subsequent to that:

Quote
Note: don’t expect to see 12 volts on these (the coil has a primary side resistance of on 0.6 ohms, which is very very low, so my guess is it will only ever receive just a few volts from the CDI unit)

...was made to help anyone that is expecting to see a 12 volt supply that gets broken when triggered like a traditional coil and points system.
The example I have in the top of my mind is the BT-H on the other bike, where I see about 4 volts maximum on the low tension side of the miniature coil.



@billygmd if you are looking for a reliable system that looks right, I can certainly recommend the BT-H
It's been on the bike for a good few years now, and it hasn't missed a beat.
And while the Dommie had a Lucas mag originally, all but the trained eye or keen rivet counter notices that there is something out of the ordinary going on.

It's been a great mod, and worthy of your consideration!

[Linked Image from granttiller.com]

Re: Electrex World ignition/alternator on pre unit 650
billygmd #824756 09/25/20 11:13 am
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Nice Avometer and nice dommie! I have the identical pair of stacks for my Lightning.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: Electrex World ignition/alternator on pre unit 650
billygmd #824763 09/25/20 12:03 pm
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That is a lovely old Avo-9 my own similar one was brocken open by customs or airport security some years ago and wrecked.
They were an excellent bit of kit.

There were a few companies doing a rather canny job of enclosing a cap discharge ignition in Lucas mag bodies years back.

Myself i would rather just put a conventional EI on it with one of those mag replacement points housings but i agree they don't
look the same. Mags have character eh? It's just that as Koan says getting one properly rebuilt these days is an expensive
exercise, that's if you can find someone who has the kit and ability to do it. It's a lot of work and with labour at these days rates
i wouldn't expect to see any change from at least a grand.
There are some CDI units about that would do the job but if you go that way, choose a dc supply one which uses a static inverter
to charge the cap, that way you are not relying on another winding as a generator, just my opinion. You will have the problem of
fitting a double ended coil somewhere and concealing both that and the unit itself but the leads will be the giveaway...... unless the
coil is mounted in the mag body somehow. You could use the original points on the end of the mag as the trigger.
As it would be a wasted spark setup, choosing one with an output cap of at least 1uf would be a good move too.

Re: Electrex World ignition/alternator on pre unit 650
billygmd #824802 09/25/20 8:41 pm
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I am impressed with the BT-H system and everyone's passion on this topic!! I think the problem is that a good rebuild on a original mag is a viable option but not always a given and there are some good alternatives available and.....................some very bad ones!! Will let you all know what I decide, at the moment my mag is at Russ's Speed Shop in the UK and I'm waiting for a repair estimate. If anyone would prefer to comment on this topic privately (Russ's Speed Shop) please send me a private PM at [email protected] Thanks for all your comments to date, lots to ponder.

Re: Electrex World ignition/alternator on pre unit 650
billygmd #824804 09/25/20 8:59 pm
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Never heard of Russ speed shop but I’ve known bikes with or had experiences with Andrew Guttmann of Priory Magnetos in Cheshire. And Tony Cooper who is probably more widely
Known.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: Electrex World ignition/alternator on pre unit 650
billygmd #824839 09/26/20 6:54 am
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I wonder if the OP means Rex’s Speedshop?

https://www.rexs-speedshop.com

I know he’s got the kit to do alternator rewinds, but I didn’t know he is a magneto guy.

Re: Electrex World ignition/alternator on pre unit 650
Grant Tiller #824842 09/26/20 7:17 am
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seems like there are plenty of options for magneto rebuilders in the UK .
here's a fellow and wife with 40 years experiece and gives a 2 year guarantee on his work .
http://www.davelindsley.co.uk/default.html


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