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timing the thunderclone the cyclo-bolt, whichever.
#824696 09/24/20 8:37 pm
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ore


I would rather be ashes than dust
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Re: timing the thunderclone the cyclo-bolt, whichever.
kevin #824709 09/24/20 9:20 pm
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Originally Posted by kevin
ore

Not much like a question Kev?


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: timing the thunderclone the cyclo-bolt, whichever.
kevin #824711 09/24/20 9:24 pm
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lol

BSAs even confuse my postin gability.


I would rather be ashes than dust
Re: timing the thunderclone the cyclo-bolt, whichever.
kevin #824712 09/24/20 9:24 pm
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maybe it is a cyclo-bolt, depending on my mood.

anyway it's my A65 bitsa, the 1966 tbolt (A50 numbered, like BSA did, god knows why) with a 1972 motor and head, but with 1966 side and rocker covers, and miscellaneous 66 inner bits that i discover. currently i have the tank on it from my 1969 Tbolt, because the 66 has a hole in it.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

like all BSAs, it's beautiful, which is mostly just a trap for me.

stopped running a while back and i parked it while i frittered my time away on triumphs

which make more sense than BSAs but aren't as pretty

but now i'm back, ready to be abused by BSA designers long dead. just an hour or so, i said. then i ll get to work on the track bike. plenty of electricity in th ebattery

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

took off the right side cover and one of the daiichi point sets had a worn-out rubbing block. no little grease pad, because it didn't have the little clamps on the points plate to hold em. so i went digging and got some lube pads out of my Lucas graveyard box and put on a new set of points and two little pad holders.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

but i couldn't get the gap adjusted right, so i though, cam run-out, and took off the AAU to clean and lube it.

so in short order i discovered the following interesting facts.

-- there is no scribe mark on the AAU cam to indicate a high point. i dont think ive ever owned one that did. not that it matters, but its tbe pricie of the thing

-- there is no notch in th eAAU nor peg in the gear to locate the AAU in relation to the camshaft

-- there is no mark on the alternator rotor to position the motor at the firing point

-- there is nothing behind the little hole on the right side where the weird little timing tool is supposed to bolt on.

so i discovered that the 1972 cases do have a 1972 crank inside them, i think, and there's a hole right in front for a perfectly ordinary timing plunger to lock the crank at 38 BTDC or whatever this thing is supposed to want. that's good, because i have three of those for various motors. i have the weird litle two-hole thing, too, but nothing i own needs it. yet.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

-- so i measured the AAU cam with calipers and marked a place where the cam was thick so i could set the point gap.to 15 or so. its not at all corroded and the cam itself has almost no variation

.-- then i spent all stinking afternoon trying to find a magic spot where the AAU unit would go on that would actually lift the right side points at some rotational angle that would give me some adjustability in the slot and still let me adjust the left side points. this thing has a 6CA points setup, thank god, so at least i didn't have to deal with that nightmare.

and i put in my last pair of B8ES plugs and put the cover back on and kicked it about ten times, and it went phfft phfft phfft.

so it still doesn't run, but at least it has the capability to make a spark, so there's that, tomorrow if it will go i'll see whether i can figure out where i actually have the timing set at. actually i can't do that because there isn't anything to look at, unless i shine the timing light down the little hole in the front to see the notch in the flywheel.

i wonder if that's even possible?

in the meantime what i intended to do today is still sitting in a heap

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

BSAs drive me nuts. i'd put a Boyer on this and be done with it but that would be accepting defeat.


I would rather be ashes than dust
Re: timing the thunderclone the cyclo-bolt, whichever.
kevin #824718 09/24/20 11:30 pm
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Just fit the Boyer Kevin.

Finding the timing mark To the AAU isn’t as hard as it would appear.

A simple bulb with 2 wires and battery will tell you this.... or set a digital multimeter to the setting which bleeps when contact is made to two crockodile
Clips would work just as well.

Have one side connecting to the spring on the points
Have the other side connecting to the engine somewhere. Ignition need not be on.

Plugs out and bike in top gear, rotate the wheel turning the engine forward. The BEEZER AAU spins anti clockwise unlike the triumph.

When the bleep stops or the light goes out, the points have opened and spark should occur.

Shine a light down the plug holes and check which side has the valves closed. I’d use the left set of points with the left cylinder for simplicity. If it’s the other way around then just swap which wire goes to the coil.

At this point where the beep stops/light goes out, put a fine mark on the rotor in line with the points, it’ll give you a rough idea where the points sit.

I think it would also be safe to say that the opposite side of this is going to be at maximum opening. So before moving the engine again, set those points to 0.015” gap.

Rotate the motor and do the other side.

Fit the crank locating tool (the screw in one which should be same
As your triumph one, locate the crank to this point (34°)

Centralise the points plate on its screws

Remove the AAU bolt, and break the hold from the taper on the AAU. It should be free to move, but the bolt back in but don’t tighten it. It’s only supporting the AAU at the moment.

Use a tool which will be sufficient for keeping some
Resistance on the centre of the AAU. Then using a screw driver, pop the flat Blade screw driver in the recess on the AAU cam and turn it backwards till the AAU is now fully advanced. By continuing to turn the AAU to the fully advanced position you will start to rotate the body of the AAU. Do so until the pen mark align a with set of points. Locate the AAU home fully then tighten the bolt.

With the engine still locked in position make a mark on the alternator Rotor to show the fully Advanced Mark.

The bike should be good for Starting and timing With the strobe.

Once you have strobed both sides and adjusted the individual sliding sections of the points plate. You can adjust the complete plate to advance or retard both sides.

You will probably want to double check the points gaps again also.


I like points, they are tuneable and will teach a lot about how dwell effects the performance of the bike. Changing to 0.012” or 0.018” will have a different response to the bike, you don’t get this with EI.

Changing those condensers for a transistor style replacement work well too.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: timing the thunderclone the cyclo-bolt, whichever.
kevin #824720 09/24/20 11:33 pm
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Also to add. If that pillar bolt isn’t isolated from the low tension wire
Or the spring you’ll never get it running. There should be a felt
Washer at the back and a nylon top hat washer under the nut. Your terminal and points spring should be on the non visible
Side of the nylon top hat.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: timing the thunderclone the cyclo-bolt, whichever.
kevin #824722 09/25/20 12:06 am
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shoot allan i spent all afternoon listening to my VOM beeping and watching my little light bulb go on and off. the technology isnt the issue with this puppy.

part of the problem is that this 6CA plate is pretty wornout, and the AAU wont hold a position unless the bolt is tightened too tight for it to be turnable. but theres some stuff in your suggeztions i hadnt thought of. ill give it another go or two before i do a Boyer. i gave my spare EI away to a waif with a really nice 66 TR6 he didnt know to fix. and still doesnt. but i have another 11-degree points plate and some extra NOS non-buggered points adjuster screws . maybe i can cobble up a winning combination.

this is a no-strobe bike as i got it. its got the 66 primary cover with no access plate and even if it did there are no timing marks on the rotor. do the 66s not have factory marks on the rotor? ill go ahead and mark some after i get it running again.

of course that may be because the DPO putthe rotor on backwards. ive never had it off to look at the back side. the stator is ancient, pre-encapsulated, although ive gobbed up the exposed connectionz myzelf with silicone.


I would rather be ashes than dust
Re: timing the thunderclone the cyclo-bolt, whichever.
kevin #824724 09/25/20 12:32 am
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actually allan i just remembered i have a pazon around here somewhere. im thinking ill give the worn-out 6CA setup one more go and then dig it out.

i aint getting any younger


I would rather be ashes than dust
Re: timing the thunderclone the cyclo-bolt, whichever.
kevin #824739 09/25/20 6:14 am
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Hi Kev, if your AAU has the 11° stamped on the back of it, I believe that will make it the 4CA points cam. If this is the case just junk the points now. I believe the 12° ones were all 6CA.

As I say I like points.... but I did get fed up of the constant adjustment of them. Which is why I switched to the Pazon. The crank driven points on my Honda seem to never go out of adjustment, which is kinda annoying. So they are still fitted to that.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: timing the thunderclone the cyclo-bolt, whichever.
kevin #824741 09/25/20 6:23 am
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Re the timing cover and rotor, I believe they were fitted as you suggest from 67 on, with the primary cover off, if it’s possible, draw a mark with a paint marker which covers the rotor and the stator, I personally think strobing a set of points is crucial to get them running equally.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: timing the thunderclone the cyclo-bolt, whichever.
kevin #824761 09/25/20 11:57 am
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FINALLY..........a proper motorbike!!! PRT

1 member likes this: Allan G
Re: timing the thunderclone the cyclo-bolt, whichever.
Allan G #824767 09/25/20 12:44 pm
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Originally Posted by Allan G
Changing those condensers for a transistor style replacement work well too.

What are these and where can they be found?


1966 BSA Lightning
(2) 1967 Triumph "Choppa"s
1974 Indian ME125
1960 Harley Servi-Car
Re: timing the thunderclone the cyclo-bolt, whichever.
kevin #824768 09/25/20 12:57 pm
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Hi Allan,

You say you have use the Pazon EI system.

How does it stack up against the Boyer system? I have a Boyer on my Lightning with the two 6V coils but as I am doing a full rebuild I'd be interested to know what your thoughts are on the best EI set up to go for.

The bottom end is currently with SRM having a ton of work done on it to replace all the bushes and bearings along with supplying a new standard spitfire camshaft, oil pump and dynamic balancing for the 750 kit that is going on it. I have had a spare cylinder head completely overhauled and fitted with larger inlet valves and ported and flowed to suit 32mm carbs. I was going to go with Mikunis but the guys at SRM have advised me to use the AMAL Premier Concentrics.

So with all that going on it would be a shame to cut corners with the ignition system.

Thanks.

Kev E

Re: timing the thunderclone the cyclo-bolt, whichever.
pushrod tom #824771 09/25/20 2:14 pm
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Originally Posted by pushrod tom
FINALLY..........a proper motorbike!!! PRT

lol

i love BSAs.

i just can never make them work right.


I would rather be ashes than dust
Re: timing the thunderclone the cyclo-bolt, whichever.
Kevin E #824786 09/25/20 6:46 pm
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Originally Posted by Kevin E
Hi Allan,

You say you have use the Pazon EI system.

How does it stack up against the Boyer system? I have a Boyer on my Lightning with the two 6V coils but as I am doing a full rebuild I'd be interested to know what your thoughts are on the best EI set up to go for.

The bottom end is currently with SRM having a ton of work done on it to replace all the bushes and bearings along with supplying a new standard spitfire camshaft, oil pump and dynamic balancing for the 750 kit that is going on it. I have had a spare cylinder head completely overhauled and fitted with larger inlet valves and ported and flowed to suit 32mm carbs. I was going to go with Mikunis but the guys at SRM have advised me to use the AMAL Premier Concentrics.

So with all that going on it would be a shame to cut corners with the ignition system.

Thanks.

Kev E

This would probably be better on a new topic Kev,

Sounds like some good modifications have been done, although I’d have done a few things different myself. I personally wouldn’t bother with the 32mm valve head. An early small port head will pull some decent revs so there’s little else to gain unless you do Mark Parker’s mod to the intakes as well (this reduces the dead area of the port and thickens the whole throttle range. I’ve done the same on different heads with good results)

I’d also look at fitting the SRM race cam instead of the standard lightning cam, it will pull from really low down and will continue to pull until it revs out (this was with my modded small port head)

Interesting SRM Have Warned you away from mikuni as they are dealers for them. I like the AMAL mk1, you could always fit the mk2 AMAL which is virtually a mikuni anyway but with fewer choices of needles etc to get mixed up with.

I’ve used the Boyer, Pazon sure fire and Pazon Altair.

The Boyer I had on my bike didn’t run right (I’ve used other bikes with boyers and they have been fine) but for some reason the bike vibrates violently with it, changed it back to points and it was fine and later fitted the sure fire and it was fine again.
I gave that Boyer to a mate who fitted it to his lightning and it runs fine so god knows.


The Pazon sure fire is as good as any in my view although I haven’t tried the smart fire. Which is the really expensive digital one.

I fitted the Altair thinking it would help performance after I did a lot of work on my motor but I didn’t find it gave me anything, infact I preferred the smart fire. (Part of the reason it came off was the stator plate fell apart so I refitted the sure fire)

So yes, it’s been a good unit. I’ve changed the black box once, not because it wouldn’t work but the bike wouldn’t go over 90 with it on. Put the box on which I had as my touring spare and boom, back to life again. So that box will see a second life on the thunderbolt.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: timing the thunderclone the cyclo-bolt, whichever.
kevin #824801 09/25/20 8:21 pm
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Kevin,
Since it is all messed up now, here is what I would do. Take off the AAU. Find the firing point using the hole in the crank, making sure that it is on the compression stroke (we have all made that mistake!!). Put the AAU on loosely and put the points plate on with the adjustment in the middle. Set the AAU so it is not quite opening the points. Tap the AAU home. Turn the engine forward so that the points are fully open. Set the gap. Turn the engine back and then go forward to the firing point. Using a screwdriver in the little slot on the end of the points cam advance the cam. At full advance the points should just start to open. I use a continuity light. You may need to rotate the points plate a bit. If you do not have enough adjustment in the points plate, you may need to re-position the AAU.

Ed from NJ

Re: timing the thunderclone the cyclo-bolt, whichever.
kevin #824813 09/25/20 10:40 pm
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you know, ed, i took a hard and critical eye to the AAU and frankly, it's just flat worn out. there's no run out on the points cam diameter at all, which surprised me. but the cam itself is loose enough on the mechansim with the points gapped and the timing set for one side, i can push the cam to the side with a screwdriver and make or break connection at the contacts way too far from the position of just opening.

so ii said fug this ancient stuff, i want to ride the motorcycle before i'm too old to kick start it. not that that's like;ly because it has only enough compression to hit 70 mph. i have too many machines that are sitting because of easy stuff.

so i went and dug out the pazon that i used on my LSR before i put the magneto on it. i still have all the parts, and so right now i'm trying to figure out where in the world i'm going to put the box so the motor won't cook it and the rain won't short it.

but i'm not done with points. i have a really pretty 69 thunderbolt that's been sitting off to the side spoiling my equanimity, and i lost the Boyer that it came with or maybe gave it away. it's got a buggered up wiring harness from a DPO project, so i'm going back stock with the electrics, and i'll figure the points out then with better pieces;

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


I would rather be ashes than dust
Re: timing the thunderclone the cyclo-bolt, whichever.
kevin #824816 09/25/20 11:13 pm
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Originally Posted by Nick H
Originally Posted by allan
Changing those condensers for a transistor style replacement work well too.

What are these and where can they be found?

do you mean condensors or their replacements?

the condensors can be in two or three places, but they will always be connected to the wire that runs from the coil + lead to the moveable contact at the ignition points.

[Linked Image from vintagetriumphparts.com]

they're something of an electric shock absorber in that they prevent your ignition points from arcing as badly. they can be under the tank, under the seat, attached to the point set, or if your PO was creative, they can be anywhere.

if you have an eolectronic ignition they are not used and probably have been removed.

if you want to ditch the rectifier there used to be a solid state Lucas replacement, or you can fit a Podtronics or similar that does the rectifier and the zener diode at the same time.

Last edited by kevin; 09/26/20 12:05 am.

I would rather be ashes than dust
Re: timing the thunderclone the cyclo-bolt, whichever.
kevin #824845 09/26/20 7:35 am
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Replacement for the condenser Dynatek ignition booster

I’ve tried a couple in the past (cheaper alternatives) which have worked really well... but failed in a short space of time. Not yet tried the dynatek version but I have set up their normal EI on a friends bike and have their coils on my A65. It’s good kit!

Kev, that’s a nice bike! I’m assuming your talking about the Smart fire amplifier box you can’t find space for? Have you tried the tool box, or made a mount for it to bolt to the rail that runs across the frame hold the side panels on, and hide it behind the side panel that way? The thunderbolt has more space there but this is where I have my smart fire amplifier (which is smaller) but with the tighter spaced lightning side panels it sits and hides fine.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: timing the thunderclone the cyclo-bolt, whichever.
Allan G #824858 09/26/20 12:11 pm
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I mount mine on the top of the oil tank under the seat. I use velcro + the tank is rubber mounted. Works ok.

Re: timing the thunderclone the cyclo-bolt, whichever.
kevin #824872 09/26/20 2:07 pm
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i had to abandon it and go to bed, but either of those options sounds doable. i wizh tbe british would get over their love of wiring pigtailz and just fit terminal blocks instead. the pazon has way too many fragile wires.

i must have half a dozen Lucas statorz, perfectly good except the wiring is broken where it enters the encapsulation.

cant complain to anybody about the originals because theyre all dead but the Boyer/pazon/Podtronics etc crowd continues the tradition


I would rather be ashes than dust
Re: timing the thunderclone the cyclo-bolt, whichever.
kevin #825350 10/01/20 8:40 pm
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i swear to god BSAs were designed just to annoy me in some fundamental and primitive way.

no room for the control box on top of the oil tank, because there's still a zener diode up there. and i still have the really nice leather tool pouch on the right, which i want to keep. but allan, your suggestion on that strap the holds up the side panels did the trick:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

not many places to hold the ignition coil but there was bare room up under the headstock to fit the little german thing that this smartfire came with:


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


and of course the trigger plate and rotor fit right where they're supposed to. no doubt about it, andy perkin's little ignition units are very nice. i like the green led that indicates that power is reaching the control box, and i very much like the little red LED on the trigger that you can use to static-time the ignition. really a nice package:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

so i got it installed and then went looking for the instructions on setting the trigger in the timing cavity that used to hold the points. not anywhere i could find, and i looked and looked. i tried using the instructions that came with the twin-plug pazon setup i have for when i give up on my ARD magneto in the race bike, but it uses a different rotor design and i couldn't figure out whether to have the various lights on or off and where to do it. so i emailed andy in new zealand, who was instantly prompt and helpful and sent me instructions for the smartfire unit i'm putting on, and answered my questions about the non-stock wiring i like to use.

i recommend that guy wholeheartedly. seriously, people, you all must realize that we're a dying market, and anything we can do to keep guys like andy in business is a benefit to all of us. else go buy a kawasaki..

anyway, i put it all together and it wouldn't start. wouldn't even try to start. i re-checked the timing and it was where i thought it was supposed to be, and both plugs happily sparked when i kicked th emotor. there was compression, 160 on the right, 170 on the left, so i figured the valve clearances were probably okay. so i took off the old Concentric carburetor and went through it, several times. poked my little 78 drill bit through the idle jet, blew air through all the holes, put it back on and it still wouldn't start. fuel was coming out the drain plug, and coming out the little hole in the tickler, so i knew it was getting there. just to check i squirted a bit of starter fluid into the cab and kicked-- th emotor fired right up and then died after a second or two.

fuel! i said, because it was obvious. so i took the carb apart again and looked it over carefully again and checked everything again.

did this over and over, to the point where i went looking for a mikuni to put on, which is not easy to do on a stinking thunderbolt, but i was ready to try. you can put the carb on, but heavens knows how you could put on an air filter. the Concentric is shorter than the mikuni, and the shortest spigot manifold you can get is from MAP at 3/4-inch, and there's just flat not room. a lightning might be okay, because they can go off to the side, but a thunderbolt is way too orthogonal to make it easy.

anyway i finally drained out some fuel to check petcock flow for the tenth time and said, whoa,here, wait a minute . . .

(people from oklahoma really do say "whoa . . . ". just so you know. we can't help it.)

crap. the can of race fuel that i had emptied into the thunderclone's tank was one that had been opened prior to a serious rainstorm on the way to maine last month. the rain had puddled into the screw cap recess and had wicked into the can. i hadn't noticed because i hadn't completely emptied the can into anything, except . . . the thunderclone.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

the thunderclone wouldn't start because the son of a bitch couldn't burn water.

so i drained out all the fuel and flushed the tank with a few cups of fresh race gas. then went ahead and kicked it.

started immediately, which i knew it would, but it still won't run except at half throttle.

ah, i said, i still don't have the timing right in this hybrid motor, and the spark is too retarded and won't run unless the rpm is up on the advance curve. so i went and advanced the spark and it started and ran better, but the trigger is pushed against its slots and so i still have to move the rotor back a bit in order to get this to where it will work okay.

but the bugger runs, so lots of other questions are now moot.


I would rather be ashes than dust
1 member likes this: Allan G
Re: timing the thunderclone the cyclo-bolt, whichever.
kevin #825355 10/01/20 9:22 pm
Joined: May 2013
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Nice one Kev!

Did you drop the drain screw off the float bowl? I often find after a rain fall that my carbs get some water in them. It’ll be fine until you try and open it up. Drop out what Evers in the bowl and try again. Usually works for me.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: timing the thunderclone the cyclo-bolt, whichever.
kevin #825356 10/01/20 9:38 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
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kevin Offline OP
DOPE
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lol

i messed up my entire week's water supply throwing cups of fuel out into the weeds.

back in the old days i used to drain my float bowls on these stinking Concentrics whenever i washed the machine. but this issue was in the fuel can itself. very clear what the problem was.


I would rather be ashes than dust
Re: timing the thunderclone the cyclo-bolt, whichever.
kevin #825357 10/01/20 10:37 pm
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 230
Likes: 3
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Kevin, we say WHOA out here in Utah a lot too. Your story reminded me of almost two days of cursing, saying whoa, and other things while trying to get a houseboat to run on water. Once I figured it out, it was a magnificent whoa moment.
Don't give up on BSA's. They don't hate you, they just detest pretty much everyone.
Fullminator.

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