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I am on vacation so don’t have my technical info, photos, bikes etc with me to check it out but——-
Just as a very way out suggestion ——
Have you got the oil pipe connections to the engine the wrong way around?
I know it sounds unlikely— but the symptoms are so strange that perhaps the cause is strange too.
HTH

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Richrd Offline OP
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TM, it's kinda hard to put a 5/16 hose on a 3/8 pipe. and even if it was possible, then you would have no oil pressure at all.


Rich
"It's not always about going fast. Sometimes it's nice to slow down" (Wendy E.2016)

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Richrd—- it is a common mod to increase the oil supply line to 3/8”.
In this case you can inadvertently put the oil pipes onto the engine the wrong way round.
Don’t know what would happen if you did— I guess the pump would suck the oil from the cooler line and keep it going at pressure for a little while and then the oil supply would falter and the pressure reduce.
But it doesn’t sound as if that is your problem anyway.

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Richrd Offline OP
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Guess what!!!! different oil pump and,,,, it's a couple pounds better.

Started at 60 -65 and was down to 45 by the time I was out the driveway.

stayed there for about 15 miles in 4th and 5th at around 4000 rpm.

then dropped to 30 - 35

Ran total of 22 miles with it dropping to 20 -25 at idle and climbing back to 32 at speed.

I think I'm just going to do short rides on it and see what happens. then when I get bored I'll pull it back apart.

Only possibilities I see are either the machinist screwed up the journals or the shells are oversize. if need I do have another crank the measures out to good stock specs.


Rich
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At least we now have a situation where the oil pressure increases rather than decreases as the engine revs increase.
So I guess that is progress of sorts.
From these latest results the possibilities would seem to be:
a) The oil pump is giving very poor output---this is unlikely as it is the second pump and the chances of them both being below par are low.
b) The OPRV is behaving strangely and blowing off at a very low pressure.
c) There is a very large clearance between bearings and crankshaft as you noted.
I think that I would mod the OPRV so that it cannot open and see what happens to the oil pressure with increasing revs and the engine getting warm. A bit of a long shot but worth doing at this juncture IMHO.
HTH

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If you are getting 20-25 PSI at idle with an engine at normal temperature then the shells are not oversize. Your problem is elsewhere.
Did you replace the steel ball with a plastic one in the anti-drain valve? Have you run a rod through the oil galleys from filter to the bolts on the case front to check for blockage? You do have the spring in the oil filter cap?

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I did not replace the steel ball.

I'm sure I cleaned the oil galleys when I had the cases in the kitchen sink but I will check again.

yes the spring is in the filter cap.

maybe I do need to try shimming the oprv.


Rich
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Just block the OPRV from opening or block the drain route from the valve and see what the pressures come back with, having it blocked for a short period is not going to harm anything and the pressure readings will provide more info than trying to work out at what pressure it opened.

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Richrd Offline OP
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Got the fancy triumph tool for removing the oprv. Guess what, it doesn't work!


Rich
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Got it apart again. Thinking to try shimming the orb. What have I got to lose

Any guidance on how thick to shim.


Also on the clutch, while it is out. I have the triple unlimited bearing. Is there anything to make lever pull lighter?


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Advice on a Norton is to shim it until it just barely rattles when shaken. Applicable to a Triple?


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Extra shimming will not fix a ball that is not sealing properly on the valve seat ie leaking at all pressures, so if shimming makes no difference to the pressures block the over pressure dump route.

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A '74 has a piston OPRV so the piston has to rise to the bleed holes to regulate the pressure. You measured the OPRV spring as 1.51", whereas the stock spring is 1375". It sound as though you have a non-stock spring.
The stock spring force at 1.1875" is 8lb, any way to check that?
You said that you were replacing the OPRV, did you do that?
You also mentioned that it is difficult to put a 5/16" hose on a 3/8" pipe (oil feed line). You had oil lines "in the box" and mentioned replacing them, did you? Why do you have a 5/16" feed line if you have a 3/8" feed pipe?
The return line is 7/16" so not possible to mix them up.
You mentioned that the flow through the feed line when pulled off the feed pipe was very slow. Did you find out why? The only filter is the mesh in the tank.
Rather than shimming, to be sure the problem is not the OPRV, put a piece of bar stock in place of the spring to keep the piston from moving.

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Originally Posted by Richrd
Also on the clutch, while it is out............Is there anything to make lever pull lighter?
The two final things that made my '73 T150V (that better matches the '74 parts book) clutch lever pull much lighter was first, a Venhill cable. This was after trying a new Barnett one which had too much flex in the casing. Second was a new fixed ball ramp ie the one pinned into the case. The old one had dents worn in it just where the pressure gets high. On my bike, these dents acted more like detent notches holding the release arm from rotating any further. Squeezing the clutch lever would just stretch/compress the cable once the balls got to those dents. I understand that fitting slightly bigger ball bearings can help with this problem too but I haven't tried it so I can't really comment..

All this was done after replacing the clutch disc but, due to the non linear force curve of the Trident's diaphragm spring, a worn clutch disc will cause heavy lever pull also. Did you replace the clutch disc when you were in there last time?

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I did not replace the valve because the "new" valve was much worse than the one I had.

I aslo wonder about the spring,,,,

I have one 5/16 pipe and one 3/8 pipe. hoses replaced. hoses are clear as is the tank screen. as an experiment I ran a 3/8 hose to the screen to see if it would flow any faster. what I have is normal for 20/50 thru a rubber hose which is why I questioned about whether the pump imparts a vaccuum to the line. which led to reply in post #821543.

I intended to block the piston. but then I have to put it together to start it, then take the primary all apart to remove the block. then back together again. My thinking was to try the shim then if theres any improvement I would just leave it.

trying to think of a way to test spring rate. any ideas?


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As mentioned, the manual gives the stock spring as 1.375" long, yours is 1.51" so possibly not stock. The manual gives a load of 8lb at 1-3/16" and a rate of 42.3 lb (presumably per inch).
How did you get a 3/8" return pipe? I have a NG T150V case and it has a 7/16" return pipe.
You should be able to remove the OPRV with the engine assembled. Get a 1" socket and extension and try fitting it before you put the clutch housing back on. See what length extension works best.
I tool the OPRV from the NG case apart.The spring measures 1.480" and the wire is 0.065" diameter.
The manual that I have (UK only) does not show turn signals so pre-71.

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Originally Posted by DMadigan
You should be able to remove the OPRV with the engine assembled.
You should, perhaps. But I haven't been able to find the correct socket to even get it into that space. Maybe with both oil lines removed?


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I have over two days of trying to remove the valve wiithout stripping the primary including butchering sockets on the lathe. it cannot be done on this bike.


Rich
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Most sockets have a lead in chamfer. Because the hex is very thin it has to be machined off. I have a deep well socket modified to remove the OPRV. I can send it out to you if you wish.
Your OPRV does have the coarse mesh screen, yes?
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Originally Posted by DMadigan
Your OPRV does have the coarse mesh screen, yes?
The one that's in there now has the coarse screen. Oddly the new one from Harris has a fine screen. It was sold as being for T150. I presume that Harris puts different springs in the same body for different models.


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Originally Posted by Richrd
trying to think of a way to test spring rate. any ideas?

Here's a fairly easy way. The digital scale is a relatively cheap 75lb one. You need a drill press to compress the spring.. The old valve in the chuck isn't necessary but makes measuring easier. This is a clutch spring I'm measuring just for illustration purposes. It measures out to 8lb 2.8oz at 1.5".

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Valve spring compression tester?


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2018 Kawasaki Z900RS


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Richrd Offline OP
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I have the socket, but as the pic shows it does not sit flush. But if I did get it off how would I put it back. If I try to install with the socket it wants to cross thread and there's no way to get my fingers there with the clutch case on.

I going to block the piston and try to find a scale for the spring

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a few wraps of electric tape can control the amount of flex
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The oil pipes are in the way of a box wrench from the bottom. With the clutch housing removed a box wrench could be used.
The seal housing flange is 2.5" diameter (the snout that actually holds the seal, not the part that the screws go through).
Distance from center of an 18 tooth sprocket to the midpoint of the side plate is 1.772" so there is 0.522" from the midpoint to the seal holder. I think any chain will clear that.
The problem with hitting the seal holder usually is the width of the chain, some have very thick side plates.

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