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A65 shifting issues
#823331 09/11/20 12:35 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 303
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Dear all,

I do have an issue with my 71 Firebird Scrambler.

When shifting up from 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd the shifting is not like it's supposed to be. If the shifting takes place at anything above 2.5k rpm the shifting is noisy/crunchy not as slick as I am used to on my Lightning. I have the impression that the lever even vibrates slighly.

I am inclined to say, it is not clutch related as 1st and 4th shifting is fine. The clutch frees completely, no drag, I can easily shift from 1st to neutral when standing at a red light.

I've had the gearbox out once but did not see anything wrong. Layshaft end float is fine, the forks are not dis-coloured, the cam plate shows some sign of use but I had not been worried and put everything back in. The bearings in the end cover seemed to be okay as well

Unfortunately, the issue persists. eek

Before I just swap the gearbox with another one which could be assembled from parts in the shop, this time with a new camplate, do you have any ideas where to watch out for? What could be the reason for that poor behaviour?

This cam plate from my parts stash does not look too promising from my perspective and I am also not sure whether it is interchangeable with the 71-cam plate.

[Linked Image from up.picr.de]

[Linked Image from up.picr.de]


I am looking forward to your highly appreciated input/hints/tips .


Cheers!

Ph.


Best regards
Phil
Duesseldorf/Germany
'62 A 65 Star (disassembled)
'69 A 65 Lightning
'71 A 65 Firebird
'84 Yamaha SR 500
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Re: A65 shifting issues
Phil in Germany #823338 09/11/20 2:03 pm
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First check the shafts are not bent, the vibration must be coming from somewhere,
Look for worn/ sloppy bushes, bad bearings if the shafts are true.

most wear on the cam plate takes place on the long notched edge that the index plung locates on, if thats not too worn ( cant see in the pic ) then it should be OK to use


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: A65 shifting issues
Phil in Germany #823339 09/11/20 2:11 pm
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Hi Gavin,

thanks for you input.

Indeed, the bike had a terrible impact in an accident. Possibly, this has bent the shafts slightly, I do not remember having had this issue before this happened.

The engine runs fine, in the beginning I was more worried about the crank case, crankshaft and t/s bush, but the crank spun freely, no cracks, no pressure woes whatsoever.

I'll post a pic of the cam plate's plunger area later.It'd be great if you could shed an eye on it.

Many thanks.

Cheers!

Ph.


Best regards
Phil
Duesseldorf/Germany
'62 A 65 Star (disassembled)
'69 A 65 Lightning
'71 A 65 Firebird
'84 Yamaha SR 500
Re: A65 shifting issues
Phil in Germany #823362 09/11/20 4:01 pm
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Most important, take a note of the lay shaft endfloat, adjust spacer on the drive side end to give around 0.003" on rebuild, as found its usually lot more.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: A65 shifting issues
Phil in Germany #823369 09/11/20 4:27 pm
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Hi Gavin,

thanks for the hint with the lay shaft end float, I am am perfectly aware of this being crucial.

As I had stated before, when shifting up the lever seems to vibrate a tad, although on any proper A65 I have owned or ridden the gears just snick in. You can really feel a positive action inside the g/b. Unfortunately, this is not the case with my Firebird.

As anticipated, I have taken some pics of the cam plate's problem zone where the plunger operates against.

[Linked Image from up.picr.de]

[Linked Image from up.picr.de]

[Linked Image from up.picr.de]


What do you mean? Leave it or order a new one? Sigh, due to rather mixed experiences I try to avoid pattern parts whenever possible.
Draganfly seems to have them in stock and the part-# is as it should be.

On the other hand, a new one could give me peace of mind for a decent time, after all I am not that fond of taking the gearbox out and back in too often.

Cheers!

Ph.


Best regards
Phil
Duesseldorf/Germany
'62 A 65 Star (disassembled)
'69 A 65 Lightning
'71 A 65 Firebird
'84 Yamaha SR 500
Re: A65 shifting issues
Phil in Germany #823406 09/11/20 9:53 pm
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That all looks good, , check the cam plate selector fork grooves. in case there is a lump or hollow or corrosion, otherwise , vibration, if its not obviously gear clash, pobably a bearing. i have only ever changed the main bearing ,they get corroded first/ so long as its got gear oil in the rest of the needles last a long time. Check all teeth, look for burrs anywhere.Check the fit of the mainshaft bush , yhe one that passes through the last gear DS main shaft, if this gets sloppy it wont help, usually they are fine but wear here wont be the direct fault.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 09/11/20 10:14 pm.

71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: A65 shifting issues
Phil in Germany #823493 09/12/20 5:20 pm
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That camplate with the bridge won’t work on a post 68 bike... unless the case has been relieved for the bridge. So you’ll either want the stepped cam plate which is hard to find or as from oif the thicker cam plate which will also match up correctly with the cover plate/trapdoor.

The stepped one is hard to find. The thicker one (thicker across
It’s whole length) is easier to find new.

HTH


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: A65 shifting issues
Allan G #823501 09/12/20 6:08 pm
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Originally Posted by Allan G
... The thicker one (thicker acrossIt’s whole length) is easier to find new...
Hi Allan,

thanks for your reply.

I did find another camplate in my parts stash, which does seem to look fair.

[Linked Image from up.picr.de]

[Linked Image from up.picr.de]

It has very limited traces of the plunger, the windows can be dressed/smoothened from my point of view.

Do you know which thickness an oif-cam plate has to have?

In case, I'll order a new one from Draganfly, as posted before they seem to stock the right one for an oif-bike with the correct parts-# 57-4026

Cheers!

Ph.


Best regards
Phil
Duesseldorf/Germany
'62 A 65 Star (disassembled)
'69 A 65 Lightning
'71 A 65 Firebird
'84 Yamaha SR 500
Re: A65 shifting issues
Phil in Germany #823517 09/12/20 7:02 pm
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i am fairly sure I have used a bridged cam plate before in my 71 A65, but if you are shopping around the latest thickest types are better.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: A65 shifting issues
Phil in Germany #823571 09/13/20 12:28 am
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Re: A65 shifting issues
gavin eisler #823596 09/13/20 7:52 am
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
i am fairly sure I have used a bridged cam plate before in my 71 A65, but if you are shopping around the latest thickest types are better.

It was Dave Brady who first alerted me to the issue, so when I had the problem the other month I popped another plate in without the cluster to check free movement and he was right, on his bike he got a dremel and ground away some of the case.

Phil. I will get the measurements for you of the thick and thin types. I don’t have a stepped one to measure but I have the other two not in a bike... I think. I know I have a Late one in my 68


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: A65 shifting issues
Phil in Germany #823598 09/13/20 8:35 am
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Quote
When shifting up from 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd the shifting is not like it's supposed to be. If the shifting takes place at anything above 2.5k rpm the shifting is noisy/crunchy not as slick as I am used to on my Lightning.

If the new camplate does not fix it then the next candidate would be the sliding gear that moves to select 1st and 2nd or its related fork. As well as moving between locking either 1st or 2nd gear when you go 2nd to 3rd its moved to a mid point position, it does not get moved between 3rd and 4th as it stays in the midpoint position. Or the shaft its on is bent where the sliding gear runs.

Re: A65 shifting issues
Phil in Germany #823680 09/14/20 12:07 am
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Did you forget the plunger spring

Re: A65 shifting issues
Phil in Germany #823705 09/14/20 6:22 am
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Many thanks, guys!

@Danam: the plunger spring is there.

As stated before, I'll order a new camplate 57-4026.

As soon as this arrives I'll take the gearbox out and shall have a look whether the shafts are true or bent or whatever else could the culprit.

I think I have enough food for thoughts now.

I'll keep you posted about the findings.

Cheers!

Ph.


Best regards
Phil
Duesseldorf/Germany
'62 A 65 Star (disassembled)
'69 A 65 Lightning
'71 A 65 Firebird
'84 Yamaha SR 500

Moderated by  Allan G, Jon W. Whitley 

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