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Cool, a list i have never seen before. Ta gents.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
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despite what others may say, i found these cheap carbs a very easy straight swap for my amals that kept sticking and getting red hot and evaporating the fuel.
set up was easy/methodical and their performance was spot on for a total outlay of around £60 for the pair including adapter plates.




my good con rod weighs 370g according to works scales,

[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/deh2E8GbAEBuzBTf7[/img]


cheers

richard.

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There's a pair of used later type conrods on eBay right now see This Link. The later rods were introduced sometime after 1970 due to a series of rod breakages, they are thicker, stronger and bead blasted so worthwhile using.

I'm using a JRC PWK 28 carb on my B44 and its more or less jetted according to the list NickL posted. The JRC version uses an alloy manifold glued & pinned to the carb, this makes it a simple swap as it bolts straight on to the head studs. The carb also comes with a chrome slide which is a bonus. There seem to be many pattern versions of the Keihin PWK, some better than others, they all use genuine Keihin jets & parts so spares aren't a problem.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
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Gav, started the Firebird today, just with fuel in the carbs responded great to throttle till fuel ran out. Seems like carbs are close.

It's better not to skimp on rods, MAP also have good aftermarket rods at a lowish price and steel H section lighter than aftermarket alloys I have, very slightly heavier than stock. Pistons vary in weight much more.


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Originally Posted by Frogeye1000
despite what others may say, i found these cheap carbs a very easy straight swap for my amals that kept sticking and getting red hot and evaporating the fuel.
set up was easy/methodical and their performance was spot on for a total outlay of around £60 for the pair including adapter plates.




my good con rod weighs 370g according to works scales,

[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/deh2E8GbAEBuzBTf7[/img]


cheers

richard.

370 is about right for an early rod, from memory the later rods are about 14g heavier, my engine was a mixture of both when I bought it.

Sounds like you were unlucky with the AMAL’s. They do require some care when installing and are best installed against a tufnol spacer. Until now I’ve always used a 12mm spacer or more, the carbs have always stayed cool and not warped. I’ve just switched to a 1/4” spacer and triumph style thick O’ring which will further improve insulation from heat but will also allow the carbs to be somewhat isolated from vibration and help reduce the fuel frothing in the bowl.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

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Found a decent set of rods, i took them out of my 732 motor around 2001, when I found a better matched pair, one is 374 g
the other 363. they are polished, Drive side rod , is the 374, it has the squirt hole plugged.
The whole time I had it from 1982 - 2000 , these were fitted, probably did around 10 k miles in that period never saw more than 6,500 rpms. Any way PM me if you are interested.

I studied the BSA part of the PWK list, there are anomalies, the A65T main jet is smaller than the L, thats the opposite with AMAL concs?
I am off to orkney tomorrow , , will be away around ten days. If you want a rod, could be posted the morn, or in 2 weeks time


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
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Thanks gavin. I've tried to pm you bur you're over your private topic limit what ever that means.
Taking crank in tomorrow, so I can wait 'til your back. Got plenty of other stuff to occupy myself with.
Going to need a set of barrels too if anyone needs a clear out.

Thanks

Richard

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The plot thickens,

Got my crank reground and went to order bearings. The ts bush 1.37"-------thats a10 size not a65.

Has my a65 been fitted with an a10 crank and will the a10 bush press into the a65 case or has it been custom made?

Its certainly looking like a bit of a Frankenstein motor.

Regards

Richard.

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We will need some photos

The A10 crank I have in my A65 needed to be sleeved to allow it to fit the A65 bush

Last edited by Allan G; 08/28/20 6:05 am.

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68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

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Earlier in the thread you state the crank has had an end feed conversion.

Now you say it has a bush on the timing side?

Whats going on.
If it has an end feed it should have a combo ball needle roller bearing on the timing side, not a bush.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
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MZ TS 250
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It has got an end feed conversion, I posted the picture of it. Its also got a ts bush of 1.37" which is a10 size. My original bush is now 10thou to big due to the regrind so I need another one.
My crank and cases are at the machinists in malton which is 30 odd miles from where I live and I'm currently in Birmingham looking at barrels.
I can understand sleeving an a10 crank to fit the a65 bush, but what if you fit an a10 bush into the a65 cases.
We've established the engine is far from standard but it ran well until i starved it of oil, so is it possible that the bush that was in it was an a10 bush modified in some way


Cheers
Richard.

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Thats a very strange set up, the normal end feed conversion uses a reduced OD TS journal which is sleeved with the inner section of the combo needle roller. ball bearing which does not need a pressure oil feed. Oil is delivered to the crank via the additional oil seal housing you show in the picture. If it has the end feed and a bush how does the timing side bush get its pressure feed.?


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
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For The bush to work, it requires the standard feed system otherwise it will run dry, it won’t work on a splash feed but a needle roller will.

The idea behind the end feed is to omit the timing side bearing, less loss of oil from it feeding the full contact surface of the bush and more oil to the big end bearings.

It’s also amiss with you saying you have a smaller journal on your crank, I’m nut sure what the OD of the A10 Bush is but I’d suspect you would need a special Bush for it to work.

A pic of my A10 crank conversion

[Linked Image]

And if you look at the bush you’ll see how the crank gets its oil. Note on the above the groove in the journal to allow free flowing of the oil.

[Linked Image]


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

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As an added thought. If your crank is end fed, have an NKIB 5907 bearing fitted. And have the end fed done properly, if the crank pinion hasn’t been modified it will need to be and having someone like Steve McFarlane do the job properly would be your best bet.


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Something doesn't make sense here...

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Maybe you have an end fed bush arrangement, quite uncommon.
With the crank at A10 size it's a bit below 35mm, the standard end feed set up
has the crank ground to suit a 30mm id needle race. BUT there are so many options
and ways to do the job, without photo's it's hard to say.
Measure the crank throw to see if it's A10 or A65 first up. (A10 = 84mm A65 = 74mm)
Then it's decision time.......................

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"Maybe you have an end fed bush arrangement, quite uncommon."
That sounds like the worst of worlds, has it actually happened?

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Not a bad thing really, some people used to fret about the centrifugal effect of feeding the crank
so put a quill in the end and fed it that way. I don't really see the point as the standard setup is
plenty good enough if done correctly. If you're going to all that trouble you may as well stick a
needle race in unless you don't want to machine the case and reduce the crank t/s journal.
I would only bother if the crank is a non standard A65 one, an oil filter is cheaper! After racing
a 650/750 with a bush setup for a couple of years i used an end feed with a norton crank and of
course, had to use a needle race. No real advantage but the only way to do it. An awful lot of
myths talked about with the A65, 'they all blow up if thrashed etc'.

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I have just obtained a lovely set of barrels and a set of conrods along with some smaller items including an old 2 piece bush. I'm going to press the old centre out and have a plain bush machined and pressed in.
It may be unconventional, but its been running like that for at least the 3 years I've had it.
I'll post some picks when I get the crank back.
Cheers
Ruchard

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The needle bearing will be a much cheaper and better option. You could also fit an RNA4907 which is needle roller only version of the KNIB5907, this is what I have on my Lightning now, as long as the end float is controlled by some other means it isn’t a problem. From simply bearings they are about £30-40 it also comes with the inner sleeve. There is a smaller bearing you can use which means you can also use the thrust washer to help control endfloat.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
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68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

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It would be interesting to see whether the crank still has the oil feed holes to supply the timing side bush. If they are not there I wonder how well the bush survives without oil supply, maybe it gets enough splash from the general maelstrom in the crankcases.

A very interesting conversion, it would be good to see more pics.

Last edited by gunner; 08/29/20 8:04 am.

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Originally Posted by gunner
It would be interesting to see whether the crank still has the oil feed holes from the timing side bush. If they are not there I wonder how well the bush survives without oil supply, maybe it gets enough splash from the general maelstrom in the crankcases.

A very interesting conversion, it would be good to see more pics.

It is interesting but a bush can not survive on splash anymore than the big ends will. You need a constant film of oil to stop the crank making contact with the bearing surface otherwise things will wear very fast. If the oil isn’t flowing then any oil there will bake and breakdown then fail. I can imagine it “working” only so much oil can flow through the crank, as well as only so much oil can pass through the bush. The oil flow is just taking 2 routes to do the same job. Maybe the oprv blows off later??? I don’t know I’m speculating on how it does function until Nick can give us a better idea how it would work. The needle roller won’t wear or at least will last much longer than the bush IMO, once the initial machine work is done it won’t take an engineer to fit a new needle roller either, just a new bearing and an oven/blow lamp.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

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My crank is now 1.370". The bearing is 1.377".
7 thou difference.

What about end float. Drive side is roller bearing. If it is an a10 crank can it be fitted with a ball bearing.

Last edited by Frogeye1000; 08/29/20 9:03 am.
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Let’s wait and see what you have. The drive side journal would have to have been sized Down to take the A65 bearing so either bearing will work. If your still using the thrust washer then why not use the roller bearing? This is what mine is using.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
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68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

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Quote
It is interesting but a bush can not survive on splash anymore than the big ends will.

I'm sure you are right Allan and what's also interesting with this conversion is whether there is any pressure loss by supplying both the bush and big ends. I thought the whole point of the end feed is to ensure high pressure to the big ends by cutting out the big end feed via the bush. If the bush is still supplied with oil via the end feed it may be a source of pressure loss.


Perhaps the oil supply to the journal is via the OPRV or other route as mentioned and I can see the sense in using one of the needle roller bearings which makes the setup a whole lot easier.

Last edited by gunner; 08/29/20 3:24 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
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