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Rear Wheel Anti-Rotation Cleats
#818236 07/31/20 9:31 pm
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Not sure what the actual name for these is, but I'm sure you know what I am talking about.

Just mounted a new K70 and tube. Really took my time to ensure no kinks in the tube, and that the cleats were free to move, ensuring the tube was above the cleat, cleat above the bead.

Once the tire was mounted, one of the cleats continues to move quite freely, the other will push freely up into the tube, but does not seem to descend sufficiently into the tire bead, concerning me the tube may be trapped in between somewhere. Valve is removed from tube, and I have added air with the cleat in question pushed nearly fully in- seems like the tube would find its way out with that degree of freedom, but it still does not want to seat as does the other cleat.

I guess I am just hoping for you to tell me I don't need to open it back up! My tire levers are just a bit too short to make this job enjoyable!


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Re: Rear Wheel Anti-Rotation Cleats
ChiefRider #818244 07/31/20 9:58 pm
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Those things can make it hard to mount a tire and get those in place. I've never had rim slip on me without a rim lock. I usually cut the plate part off and leave threaded part in rim. Maybe see if you can take a look in ther without removing tire.


Bill
1974 Norton Commando
1966 Lightning
1965 Lightning Rocket
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1967 Norton Atlas
1948 Panhead
Re: Rear Wheel Anti-Rotation Cleats
ChiefRider #818245 07/31/20 10:09 pm
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It could be that the tire bead is not fully seated out to the rim lip at that point or the rim lock is slightly rotated sideways. Can you rotate the lock by twisting on the exposed bolt?

Sometimes the tire looks to fully out to the rim but it is actually still partly in the nipple recess area. If you spin the wheel you will normally see the issue if the wheel in not actually centered in the tire. It is the reverse of where you break the bead and push the tire into the nipple recess for you can lift it over the rim on the other side.

Gordo


The roadside repairs make for the best post ride stories.
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Re: Rear Wheel Anti-Rotation Cleats
ChiefRider #818246 07/31/20 10:10 pm
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Practice makes those tires easier, Chief. Really make sure you've got the bead sunk into the dropped center opposite of where you are levering. And shoot WD40 all around the rim, a dollar's worth if you have to.

I started blowing off those rim locks years ago, never a problem whatsoever. I put carriage bolts in to fake the correct look.

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Re: Rear Wheel Anti-Rotation Cleats
ChiefRider #818290 08/01/20 11:31 am
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Well looks like I'll get more practice! The tire bead was not seated on the rim near the rim lock in question, so I inflated the tube to seat the bead, thinking this would allow the lock to drop in place. Nope. Apparently it was a pinched tube......


1970 Lightning
1968 Thunderbolt
Re: Rear Wheel Anti-Rotation Cleats
ChiefRider #818316 08/01/20 4:23 pm
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They are not anti-rotational cleats. They are there to retain the tire on the rim in case of rapid deflation - You know, blow out. Over the years I have had more than my fair share of cases where the rear tire suffered from rapid deflation. In a couple of cases the tire left the rim.

The one I remember the most we were on a Harley KH model. It had neither a safety rim or rim locks. It blew on mile 13 of the Main Turnpike. We were two up with a first time passenger. All she remembered was some one telling her, " in all cases stay behind the driver". The bike at first swapped ends enough times to get her attention. When the side to side s**t stopped it was bare steel on asphalt. The tire was wrapped up in the swing arm and fender. Her motorcycle days were over, which she reminded me in various ways. As I remember there were some after the fact bruises involved as we pulled the tire free and pushed the bike to the toll booth. That certainly ended that relationship. It was obvious she wasn't a good sport!

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Re: Rear Wheel Anti-Rotation Cleats
ChiefRider #818331 08/01/20 7:57 pm
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Ok given that they are for blowouts what ive wondered is why is it that they never have them on front wheels? .......All the air suddenly going to the top on the front is hairy to say the least ......had that one time 2 up and somehow managed to pull it down .only thing that saved me was it happened on a straight


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
Re: Rear Wheel Anti-Rotation Cleats
Ignoramus #818336 08/01/20 8:54 pm
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Originally Posted by Ignoramus
Ok given that they are for blowouts what ive wondered is why is it that they never have them on front wheels? .......All the air suddenly going to the top on the front is hairy to say the least ......had that one time 2 up and somehow managed to pull it down .only thing that saved me was it happened on a straight

Plus 1 to that, only thing I can think of is balance of the front wheel seems to have more effect to the rider than the rear will. I’ve only ever fitted rim locks to off road bikes (or those with off road tyres) never had an issue with the back where I have needed one.... but I have known it happen. Worst I’ve had is a back wheel lock up on the motorway, that took the tyre down to the chord, but as long as I could control the front wheel I managed to direct it towards the hard shoulder (one of the few motorways that still has one)


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: Rear Wheel Anti-Rotation Cleats
ChiefRider #818345 08/01/20 10:36 pm
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Quote
Worst I’ve had is a back wheel lock up on the motorway

Had that happen on an Interstate 40 coming out of Knoxville Tennessee. Drive shaft broke on a Gold Wing.
It was in bumper-to-bumper rush hour traffic going at least 70mph. Traveling in passing lane armco barrier on my left and no break down lane on right.

Made a Boston lane change by diving, sliding slightly sideways, between two tailgating cars on my right to the last few feet of a oncoming ramp almost being pushed back into traffic. Wife said that was exciting - she's a keeper.

Got to rally and mentioned my experience and and several Gold Wing owners asked, "Only your first?"

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Re: Rear Wheel Anti-Rotation Cleats
ChiefRider #818353 08/01/20 11:16 pm
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"Only your first?"
Drive shaft breakage or wife, John?

Re: Rear Wheel Anti-Rotation Cleats
ChiefRider #818357 08/01/20 11:37 pm
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I used to own (and wish I still did!) a very stock original 1964 Harley XLCH with factory alloy rims. The rear rim was equipped with several short sheet metal type screws that bit into the tire bead. That bike did have the torque to twist the valve off of the inner tube.


1970 Lightning
1968 Thunderbolt
Re: Rear Wheel Anti-Rotation Cleats
ChiefRider #818666 08/04/20 7:24 am
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During my last tire change on the T150 I found that the wheel locks wouldn't press into the rim. Got the tire off and found that the 'locks' were just carriage bolts under three layers of duct tape as a rim strip.
I bought a proper rim strip and wheel locks. Never experienced a sudden deflation, but I'm sure that the first time I don't use proper rim locks I will.
There's a WM3 rim on the front too. I'm half tempted to use them there as well. Thousands of dirt riders can't be wrong.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: Rear Wheel Anti-Rotation Cleats
DavidP #818704 08/04/20 3:59 pm
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Quote
Thousands of dirt riders can't be wrong.
Thought the same thing the last time I did a heel-clicker on the Norton.



1967 T120R
1970 T120R
1970 Commando
Re: Rear Wheel Anti-Rotation Cleats
ChiefRider #818711 08/04/20 4:25 pm
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Didn’t bother to read the whole thread, but FWIW.......
The rim locks will Help keep a flat tire that’s squirmy on the rim, and prevent the steel rim sliding on the street.


Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
1 '65 XLCH, Hernia Gift, on the way to Japan!
Re: Rear Wheel Anti-Rotation Cleats
ChiefRider #819057 08/07/20 11:16 am
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The primary purpose of security bolts / rim locks is to stop the tyre creeping around the rim when running at low pressures, that's why they are almost exclusively fitted to off road bikes.
Will they hold a tyre on the rim in the event of a blowout? Possibly but I wouldn't stake my life on it.
Why did BSA fit them? Probably because they used the same components over a range of models, when a wheel is built no one knows if it will be fitted to a road model or a scrambler


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Re: Rear Wheel Anti-Rotation Cleats
Andy Higham #819093 08/07/20 2:54 pm
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Originally Posted by Andy Higham
Why did BSA fit them? Probably because they used the same components over a range of models, when a wheel is built no one knows if it will be fitted to a road model or a scrambler
And yet the WM2 rims for the front wheel have no holes for rim locks.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: Rear Wheel Anti-Rotation Cleats
ChiefRider #819099 08/07/20 3:40 pm
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The front rims are not interchangeable with the rear even if the same size because the dimples are drilled for different spoke patterns. I would expect that the dimple holes, valve stem hole and any rim lock holes are all done at the same time.

Gordo


The roadside repairs make for the best post ride stories.
Re: Rear Wheel Anti-Rotation Cleats
ChiefRider #819173 08/08/20 2:47 am
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Had a rear tire rapid deflation once, when I still had rim locks on. The tire didn't come off the rim, but I still felt like I was on ice. Fortunately I was only going about 30 mph, and I was able to get the bike to the curb and stop without dumping. Conclusion: Rim locks or no rim locks, a rapid deflation is catastrophic, something to be avoided if at all possible.

This was the only rapid deflation I've ever had, and it happened because I had woefully neglected the tire, and it was so thin and soft that it tore the tube. Conclusion: With proper tire maintenance, blowouts are extremely rare. Flats from punctures tend to be more gradual.

I eventually removed the rim locks because they were very rusty, and because they add one more bit of aggravation in tire changing. I may be taking some sort of chance in so doing, but I believe the risk is low.

I also subscribe to the theory that the main purpose of the rim locks was to prevent tire rotation when riding with very low tire pressure, as in off-road use. I think this is evidenced by the fact that they phased them out on later models, when there came to be a greater distinction between on and off-road bikes, and the wheels used on each. (Also evidenced by the fact that front wheels do not have rim locks - not necessary because torque is not applied to the front wheel.)


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: Rear Wheel Anti-Rotation Cleats
DavidP #819192 08/08/20 9:44 am
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Originally Posted by DavidP
And yet the WM2 rims for the front wheel have no holes for rim locks.

The B40WD parts list has the WM2 front rim with a rim lock, the front rim I have from a B40 Enduro Star has a rim lock. So on some of the off road bikes BSA did fit front rim locks.

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Re: Rear Wheel Anti-Rotation Cleats
kommando #819213 08/08/20 2:48 pm
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Originally Posted by kommando
Originally Posted by DavidP
And yet the WM2 rims for the front wheel have no holes for rim locks.

The B40WD parts list has the WM2 front rim with a rim lock, the front rim I have from a B40 Enduro Star has a rim lock. So on some of the off road bikes BSA did fit front rim locks.

Interesting; yes, braking would also apply rotational force to the tire. Since these are off-road examples, this is in keeping with the "low tire pressure" theory.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: Rear Wheel Anti-Rotation Cleats
Gordo in Comox #819445 08/10/20 5:01 am
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Originally Posted by Gordo in Comox
The front rims are not interchangeable with the rear even if the same size because the dimples are drilled for different spoke patterns. I would expect that the dimple holes, valve stem hole and any rim lock holes are all done at the same time.

Gordo
Well, I have a WM3 on the front of my Trident now. It came on the front of my A65, with the Triumph disc front end. It has holes for rim locks, but I have none fitted.
The low pressure thing still makes sense. With a slow deflation the locks will keep the tire in place, preventing a faster deflation.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: Rear Wheel Anti-Rotation Cleats
ChiefRider #819480 08/10/20 2:57 pm
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I was going to stay out of this one but.........1967 B44R front tire picked up a tack. Those little tacks that have a plastic end and are used on cork board. This one was BLACK ( they come in all colors). I have no clue how long it had been in the tire but it was embedded in the thread and was almost impossible to see. Slow leak, I’m doing 45 or so and feel somethings not right. Scoot up on the tank to check out the front tire. See that it’s “ soft”. Slid back on the seat and started to get over to the shoulder. As soon as I left pavement the tire completely deflated and the tire came completely off the rim. What followed wasn’t pretty. No Name Man was following me and witnessed the whole thing.

You want a challenge? Remove the front tire off it’s rim while it’s still on the bike and try to roll it around the shop. Now try it at 25-35 mph.

I ADDED a rim lock on that front wheel after that. I’ve always used them anyway. Figure I’m not one to out guess the engineers that came up with the design and just learned to deal with them.

And........when someone like Mr Healy says something, I pay attention.

YRMVAINOMBWYD..........Gordon in NC

Last edited by Gordon Gray; 08/10/20 2:58 pm.
Re: Rear Wheel Anti-Rotation Cleats
ChiefRider #819481 08/10/20 3:06 pm
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Why only on British bikes? From the time that the Brits started putting rim locks on their bikes, there were millions of Japanese, German, American, and Italian bikes, many of them with the same rims and wheels, and very many of them with horsepower and torque that dwarfed the British bikes, that never had rim locks nor even the provision for them.

I've ridden hundreds of thousands of miles on tube-type rims on non-Brit bikes, and never once have I thought "I really need to take these rims off and drill them for rim locks and install them."

Not only that, despite 25 years of being on line and reading millions of posts, have I ever heard of anyone else doing that, either. It's only on British bikes that already came with them, perhaps for the reasons mentioned above.

If I understood why that is, maybe I'd understand being concerned about maybe not having them on a BSA?

Lannis


"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false-face for the urge to rule it."
Re: Rear Wheel Anti-Rotation Cleats
ChiefRider #819498 08/10/20 5:52 pm
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Lannis, are you sure that no other street bikes had them? I thought for sure the older KZs had them. But my memory isn’t something to rely on.

I wouldn’t expect ANYBODY to do what I did by adding one but I wasn’t riding that thing until I did. That wheel made it back to Northern PA the next year but is now off the bike because of a front end upgrade. Once I’m gone some poor sucker will end up with that wheel and be posting that he/she has proof they came that way from the factory.

I’m at a point in my life where I have no opinion on what others want to do. Me, I use rim locks, keep new spares on the shelf. Been using the new fancy lightweight ones lately.

I lived to tell the tale. Not my fault if folks don’t listen.

Gordon in NC

Re: Rear Wheel Anti-Rotation Cleats
ChiefRider #819505 08/10/20 6:36 pm
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Well Gordon you dispelled one of my theories, namely, that a puncture will not cause a rapid deflation. I'm not sure this will give me the impetus to add rim locks, but your input is acknowledged.

By the way, how are you? Haven't heard much from you lately...


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
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