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still trying to find joy
#817559 07/26/20 10:18 pm
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Before this mess hit I had the bike running and was beginning to like it. But on the first trip out of the neighborhood it locked up and took out the crank shells.

I had the crank ground and reassembled it as carefully as I could. WITH AN OIL GAUGE! After a few rides around the neighborhood I went out for about 10 miles. What I find is about 70 psi on start up but as it warms up the pressure drops. It sat at 40 for a couple miles then dropped to 30. I was tip toeing home by then.

So my question, is there something to check? Or just go for a new oil pump?

Thanks


Rich (last remaining member ThreeMustGetBeers)
"It's not always about going fast. Sometimes it's nice to slow down" (Wendy E.2016)

69 bonney
72 commando
75 commando
couple of beesas a ducati
and a Honda?
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Re: still trying to find joy
Richrd #817577 07/27/20 1:25 am
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30 hot at say 4000 rpm is definitely too low to ride. Generally cold start numbers don't mean much but sometimes they can give a clue as even with worn bearings they can be quite high. 70 cold seems low even on a worn engine. Do you trust the gauge?
When you had the crank turned did you do both the rod journals and the plain shell main journals?

Last edited by htown; 07/27/20 1:31 am.

1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2018 Kawasaki Z900RS


Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: still trying to find joy
Richrd #817581 07/27/20 2:12 am
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Ref the oil pressures you quote— what were the speeds relating to the oil pressures?

Re: still trying to find joy
Richrd #817593 07/27/20 4:33 am
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FWIW: My Triples Unlimited gauge shows about 82psi on startup, and it stays there for maybe 5 or 6 miles. After maybe 10 miles it's down to 60psi at 4-5000rpm. 20 to 25 miles and it reads 40-50psi.
Once I get home the idle pressure is maybe 10psi, oil temperature is 180 degrees, just where the cooler thermostat opens.
I inspected the pump and renewed gasket and O rings when I rebuilt the clutch.
The clock shows 17K miles, so I doubt that the bottom has ever been serviced. It's still has standard pistons.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: still trying to find joy
Richrd #817619 07/27/20 11:48 am
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all journals were ground, it's a new triples unlimited gauge, and rpm has very little efffect on the pressure


Rich (last remaining member ThreeMustGetBeers)
"It's not always about going fast. Sometimes it's nice to slow down" (Wendy E.2016)

69 bonney
72 commando
75 commando
couple of beesas a ducati
and a Honda?
Re: still trying to find joy
Richrd #817648 07/27/20 3:29 pm
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There was obviously a problem that caused the (presumably) rod bearing lock up.
It was good that you got off with relatively minor damage.

Assuming the crank hadn’t been reground previously, that was most likely due to low oil pressure.
This may have been due to a pump problem, or more commonly due to wear of the centre mains.

When a triple crank is reground, it is essential that the centre main journals are ground using the outer main journals as the end centres (so all 4 mains are precisely Concentric).
Using any other centres will not achieve this concentricity.

I only mention this, because a car crankshaft regrinder may not take this into consideration, as they will usually grind all main journals (including the outer main journals) using the end centres of the shaft.
In your case, they wouldn’t have reground the outer main journals.

Re: still trying to find joy
Richrd #817664 07/27/20 5:06 pm
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Originally Posted by Richrd
all journals were ground, it's a new triples unlimited gauge, and rpm has very little efffect on the pressure

Very strange behavior, with my bike every move of a throttle causes an oil gauge to shot into higher pressure.
Did you used plastigage during rods assembly?

Re: still trying to find joy
Richrd #817675 07/27/20 9:17 pm
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I starte to use plasticgage but the brit machinist said he had everything fitted. he's strickly brit bike, no car or asian stuff.

thats why i..m questioning the pump.


Rich (last remaining member ThreeMustGetBeers)
"It's not always about going fast. Sometimes it's nice to slow down" (Wendy E.2016)

69 bonney
72 commando
75 commando
couple of beesas a ducati
and a Honda?
Re: still trying to find joy
Richrd #817697 07/28/20 12:12 am
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Richard.

If this an old bike being renewed...and if you haven’t already done it...

Pullout the oil pump and replace the gasket between the back case of the pump and the case.
We also lapped the back of the pump to make sure is was smooth and flat.
Also replace the two o-rings. Replacing this on my 69 r3 brought the oil pressure back up.
Also pulled and cleaned the opr valve.

There is a good chance that the gasket on the back is no longer sealing.

YRMV

Last edited by Semper Gumby; 07/28/20 12:14 am.
Re: still trying to find joy
Richrd #817722 07/28/20 2:12 am
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+1 for the OPRV

Re: still trying to find joy
Richrd #817759 07/28/20 1:14 pm
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So you must have replaced the oil pump gasket when you split the cases to get the crank out, right? So unless you made an installation error, that is unlikely to be the problem. You want joy, try getting an old oil pump gasket out. Maybe look at the 2 o-rings on the pump to make sure they haven't been damaged, but I think that is unlikely to cause your symptoms. I have never seen oil pressure remain constant with changing RPM. Good luck.

Re: still trying to find joy
Richrd #817760 07/28/20 1:15 pm
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Maybe look at oil filter cavity and filter as well.

Re: still trying to find joy
Richrd #817785 07/28/20 3:51 pm
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OPRV +2

A weak spring or incorrectly set too low OPRV will show a low pressure at all revs.

Re: still trying to find joy
Richrd #817794 07/28/20 5:11 pm
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Cold oil pressure of 70 may be pointing to problem with oprv. Generally over 90 even with a worn engine.


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2018 Kawasaki Z900RS


Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: still trying to find joy
Richrd #817816 07/28/20 7:44 pm
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I find it interesting that no one has questioned the pump. but more important, is it possible to pull the oprv without pulling the motor?


Rich (last remaining member ThreeMustGetBeers)
"It's not always about going fast. Sometimes it's nice to slow down" (Wendy E.2016)

69 bonney
72 commando
75 commando
couple of beesas a ducati
and a Honda?
Re: still trying to find joy
Richrd #817817 07/28/20 7:45 pm
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oil filter tube/ the book shows the spring in the back of the tube. Mine had the spring in the recess in the cab. is the book right?


Rich (last remaining member ThreeMustGetBeers)
"It's not always about going fast. Sometimes it's nice to slow down" (Wendy E.2016)

69 bonney
72 commando
75 commando
couple of beesas a ducati
and a Honda?
Re: still trying to find joy
Richrd #817822 07/28/20 8:04 pm
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Originally Posted by Richrd
oil filter tube/ the book shows the spring in the back of the tube. Mine had the spring in the recess in the cab. is the book right?

No. The spring goes between the cap and filter as you have it.

Re: still trying to find joy
Richrd #817858 07/28/20 11:57 pm
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The pump body is steel so unless you took it apart and did not tighten the bolts there is little reason to believe it would cause low pressure and not varying with RPM. The pumps rarely go bad so at worst you have to tighten up the body bolts, change the base plate gasket and tighten the pump case screws.

Re: still trying to find joy
Richrd #817862 07/29/20 12:08 am
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As l understand, the oprv can be removed with the engine in the frame. I've not done it before, maybe someone else can chime in with some tips.


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2018 Kawasaki Z900RS


Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: still trying to find joy
Richrd #817865 07/29/20 1:05 am
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Likewise, some of these guys swear they can get it out with the engine complete. I've never done it unless the primary and clutch were out of the way.
Could be that someone assembled the OPRV with a spring from a twin?


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: still trying to find joy
Richrd #817866 07/29/20 1:55 am
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I agree that the primary drive, clutch, and maybe the clutch housing must be removed for access.

Re: still trying to find joy
Richrd #817867 07/29/20 2:06 am
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I've got a Ducati on one table and a Honda with melted wires on the other so it will be a few days before I attack the oprv.

I'm not mu h for true confessions but I did put one together backward once. That's why I think this one is correct. But I'll see.


Rich (last remaining member ThreeMustGetBeers)
"It's not always about going fast. Sometimes it's nice to slow down" (Wendy E.2016)

69 bonney
72 commando
75 commando
couple of beesas a ducati
and a Honda?
Re: still trying to find joy
Richrd #817868 07/29/20 2:13 am
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Correct !!
I'd be swearing for sure if I had to strip down the whole f&@%!^ clutch & inner primary just to access that little sodding oil pressure relief valve ,

With the bike on the sidestand .. A socket set .. Good light .. Plus maybe a mirror & working in from the Timing side are the best tips I can give you,
No special tools or lessons in yoga are needed for the job .

Re: still trying to find joy
Bodie #817876 07/29/20 4:01 am
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Never done it but the book says
the pressure relief valve lives right in front to the oil lines
up underneath the bike .
so it is highly accessible if you lift the bike High Enough or can slither like a snake underneath the bike .
Triumph made a special tool for it ... which looks like a very cheap stamped thin wall socket .
[Linked Image from baxtercycle.com]

first step is to get your eyeballs on it and then make a plan .
like ... must the oil lines be removed ? What else is in the way ? .

Re: still trying to find joy
Richrd #817877 07/29/20 4:01 am
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The OPRV can be accessed without disassembling the motor. You need a deep well 1" socket to get on the base hex. The cap is 15/16" so if you do not have a deep 1" you can try taking it out by the cap hex. A 1.41" diameter socket will fit in there.
The OPRV is located right above the oil pipes. You probably will have to remove the oil lines to get access.

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