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Re: Lightning won't idle
PeterZielenski #814532 06/30/20 6:43 am
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If it won't run under 2500 rpm you have a problem with the taper on the needle or the jet it slides through.
By those speeds the idle circuit shoud be contributing less than 10% to the engine running.
In fact most amals will start & run on the needle jet quite happily in warmer climes.
More than one time I have removed a pilot air scew completely and the engine runs exactly the same as it was before I touched it.

The other problem could be a float that is set way way too low so at under 2500 rpm the venturi is not strong enough to pull the fuel out of the bowl.

When one resided Carlingford we had a lot of tune up sssions at my garage and the number of times an A65 came in idleing quite happily around 600 rpm on only one carb with a totally blocked pilot circuit was quite staggering


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Re: Lightning won't idle
PeterZielenski #814533 06/30/20 6:46 am
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I would have to double check with AMAL, but this is the first time I have heard that 3 I’d rings is equal to a 19 jet.

As far as I’m aware the no Id rings is 15, the 1 I’d ring is 17 and the 2 is rings are 19. The 2 is rings is what is normally supplied but as mentioned previously I have used and sold both the 1 and 2 ring’d jets. If yours doesn’t have any on Mark then this is a good place to start looking.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: Lightning won't idle
PeterZielenski #814534 06/30/20 6:51 am
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Mark, needle jets are available up to 115, but they also sell a 1065, id be wanting to check your jet isn’t crushed down a size with a go-no-go (plug) gauge.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: Lightning won't idle
Allan G #814550 06/30/20 1:53 pm
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"If yours doesn’t have any on Mark then this is a good place to start looking."

Peter's PILOT JETS have two rings. It is the jet needles that have no markings.

Originally Posted by Allan G
Mark, needle jets are available up to 115, but they also sell a 1065, id be wanting to check your jet isn’t crushed down a size with a go-no-go (plug) gauge.
Crushed down? How does that happen?


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: Lightning won't idle
PeterZielenski #814554 06/30/20 2:14 pm
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Allan G,
One ring is #15, Two rings #17, Three rings #19 see chart in link below. As you say #17 is what usually comes standard and this is what Mark Z has. He may need to try #19's.
Htown
https://www.britishmotorcycleparts.co.nz/amal-premier-pilot-jets

Last edited by htown; 06/30/20 8:54 pm.

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1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2018 Kawasaki Z900RS


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Re: Lightning won't idle
PeterZielenski #814556 06/30/20 2:17 pm
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Mark, how did your spark plugs looked like when engine died?

Re: Lightning won't idle
PeterZielenski #814572 06/30/20 6:09 pm
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Idle requires a certain amount intake manifold vacuum.

If there is no intake vacuum at idle, the idle carburetor will not draw fuel out of the float bowl into the Venturi. One reason for this is cam timing. Other factors include ignition timing, condition of the valves, rings not seated, etc. (There are about ten items that will affect manifold vacuum). If you are a shop you should have a vacuum Guage, and it will quickly give you an answer.

The other problem, seldom mentioned, is a warped float bowl. If the top of the bowl is warped it can allow air to be drawn into the fuel transfer port that feeds fuel from the bottom of the bowl to the pilot jet. I have seen a lot of problems caused by over tightening the the float bowl screws.

An air leak at the manifold gasket or leaking balance pipe between intake manifolds will reduce intake manifold vacuum at idle rpm.

AMAL's are a very forgiving instrument. It will perform very well, even if the fuel level is "quote" out of spec. The original Triumph Bulletin showing the float level (not fuel level) is just as much about getting the tip of the needle out of (to clear) the needle orifice so it isn't in the way of the flow of fuel. We all assumed that it was about fuel level, but could bit be that the tip of the needle occluded the the needle orifice at high flow requirements. Think about that for a while.

Last edited by John Healy; 06/30/20 6:21 pm.
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Re: Lightning won't idle
Mark Z #814577 06/30/20 7:17 pm
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Originally Posted by Mark Z
"If yours doesn’t have any on Mark then this is a good place to start looking."

Peter's PILOT JETS have two rings. It is the jet needles that have no markings.

Originally Posted by Allan G
Mark, needle jets are available up to 115, but they also sell a 1065, id be wanting to check your jet isn’t crushed down a size with a go-no-go (plug) gauge.
Crushed down? How does that happen?


I’ve add this Link to Amal mk1 pagewhich might help. The no identification on the needle seems odd, but as you can see on the image in the link the first needle which shows 1 inscribed ring is poor to see even at the magnification on the image. If it is that needle then it’s for a 2t 600 carb which will mean the needle is too short, if anything you’ll be having some richness problems.

If possible can you let me know the length of the needle you have (mm if possible) I have a range of needles which I can compare with and get back to you on.

The needle jets can get crushed down by being over tightened in the jet holder, although I’ve only found this about 50% of the time. If you have a 0.106” plug gauge you can check the jet before and after it’s installed in the jet holder, sometimes giving it that last “nip” is just enough to close the end of the jet up and just by a thou turns a 106 into a 105 jet...

I’ve had this symptom a few years ago, although the problem didn’t become apparent until about half throttle where it ran incredibly lean. I was kindly gifted some Vermont plug gauges, I have used them on every carb that’s been through my hands since.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: Lightning won't idle
PeterZielenski #814592 06/30/20 7:58 pm
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This was covered by me in Vintage Bike long before Burlen was aware of the problem. The problem was basically in production of the jet holder that wasn't undercut. That happened about the same time the article appears in VB.

http://vintagebikemagazine.com/technical-articles/AMAL/

Scroll down to the picture of the needle jet with the plug gauge in it. Below is how the jet holders should look with the proper counter-bored hole.

Because the needles taper is not in play at low throttle openings. The straight diameter of the needle should be .0985". It is the straight part of the needle that is in play at low throttle openings.

Last edited by John Healy; 06/30/20 8:01 pm.
Re: Lightning won't idle
PeterZielenski #814595 06/30/20 8:49 pm
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The article comes up as a forbidden page John.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: Lightning won't idle
PeterZielenski #814602 06/30/20 9:48 pm
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I see!

I can open it on a new version of Safari (13.0.5), and several versions of FireFox.

I cannot open it on an older version of safari (ver. 5.1.10).

It looks like a browser issue.
John

Re: Lightning won't idle
PeterZielenski #814604 06/30/20 9:52 pm
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Re: Lightning won't idle
PeterZielenski #814605 06/30/20 10:22 pm
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works on Samsung Android browser
image snagged from johns article
¿ maybe clear your browser
[Linked Image from vintagebikemagazine.com]

Re: Lightning won't idle
PeterZielenski #814610 06/30/20 10:50 pm
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All the info from the OP seems to suggest idle circuit, yet we've wandered into needle jet (way above idle circuit, beyond throttle valve cutaway). Check the main jet next?

JH "The original Triumph Bulletin showing the float level (not fuel level) is just as much about getting the tip of the needle out of (to clear) the needle orifice so it isn't in the way of the flow of fuel. We all assumed that it was about fuel level, but could bit be that the tip of the needle occluded the the needle orifice at high flow requirements."

This issue doesn't seem to involve high flow requirements, as it's at/near tickover.
Even so, the smallest avenue in the supply chain is the (in most Mk1 Concentrics) 0.1" hole in the float needle seat. The needle only needs to rise 25 thou off its seat for the fuel avenue around it to equal the area of the 0.1" hole. To allow that opening of the valve, the float (and fuel level) must drop by about 5 or 6 times that amount, so say 125-150 thou (about 3.5mm). Opening the valve further won't significantly increase flow, because the 0.1" hole is the limiting factor.

I know that folk have made holes into the needle cavity. or cut down top edges of the cavity, but it is all in vain. The limit of flow is the seat hole combined with the head of fuel. This is why some racing carbs have larger seat holes.

Re: Lightning won't idle
PeterZielenski #814612 06/30/20 10:57 pm
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There was short run of these that were not counterbored. By counterboring it allows the jets to seat on the shoulder. This is most important with the needle jet. If the jet comes up tight at the end of the thread, instead of the shoulder, it can collapse the orifice of the jet. This will make the bike run lean at low throttle openings. This was corrected quite a few years ago and I have not seen one that has not been counterbored
for a while.

But this will not keep the bike from idling!

Re: Lightning won't idle
PeterZielenski #814617 06/30/20 11:23 pm
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Koan all I hear on these web sites is float level, float level, float level, float level, ad nauseum.

You are absolutely right, his problem has nothing to do with float level, but the subject was brought up.

There is more to this than meets the eye.

Re: Lightning won't idle
PeterZielenski #814622 07/01/20 12:01 am
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Yes John, while fuel/float levels can sometimes be an issue, its not the first thing on my diagnostic trail (unless the owner tells me that they've messed with the seats or bent the tangs on a Stayup, then its one of the first things I check, cos its so rarely done well).

Assuming that all the other basic requirements are correct as described (and I always have my doubts with EI timing and battery on a new motor, irrespective of the owner's assurances) I can only see weakness of mixture being the cause.
This has been suggested by several folk long ago, with all the usual likely suspects covered. Do the carbs have choke slides? If not, are the cable holes blanked off?

Clutching at straws!

Re: Lightning won't idle
PeterZielenski #814623 07/01/20 12:02 am
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So have we tried turning the air mixture screws in half a turn yet or are they still at 1 1/2 turns out. Either that or switch to #19 pilot jets from the 17's. Simple stuff first. My trident will barely start and won't idle at all at 1 1/2 turns out. Set at one turn out it's fine.


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2018 Kawasaki Z900RS


Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: Lightning won't idle
htown #814645 07/01/20 6:43 am
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Originally Posted by htown
So have we tried turning the air mixture screws in half a turn yet or are they still at 1 1/2 turns out. Either that or switch to #19 pilot jets from the 17's. Simple stuff first. My trident will barely start and won't idle at all at 1 1/2 turns out. Set at one turn out it's fine.

If the engine will not run at any speed under 2500 rpm then the pilot jet & pilot air screw adjustments are a waste of time and will just confuse things

He has a major problem with the needle & needle jet
or the slide is leaking air like a sieve

When he can drop the slide down low enough to ge the engine running less than 1000 rpm, then it is time to look at the pilot system..
unfortunately he did not mention originally that by "not idle" he was meaning not run under 2500rpm which I think we would all agree is a tad high for the idle circuit.


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Re: Lightning won't idle
PeterZielenski #814655 07/01/20 10:15 am
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Maybe a coincidence, 2,500 rpm is about the break even point for Alternator output matching ignition power draw, 90 % of carb faults are electrical.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
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Re: Lightning won't idle
quinten #814670 07/01/20 12:53 pm
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Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
If the engine will not run at any speed under 2500 rpm then the pilot jet & pilot air screw adjustments are a waste of time and will just confuse things

He has a major problem with the needle & needle jet
or the slide is leaking air like a sieve

When he can drop the slide down low enough to ge the engine running less than 1000 rpm, then it is time to look at the pilot system..
unfortunately he did not mention originally that by "not idle" he was meaning not run under 2500rpm which I think we would all agree is a tad high for the idle circuit.
Originally Posted by gavin eisler
Maybe a coincidence, 2,500 rpm is about the break even point for Alternator output matching ignition power draw, 90 % of carb faults are electrical.


Some interesting points from both these posts,

I'll add a point to gavins post first, I run a pazon on my system, when I have been in a position where the battery has crapped out, the bike has still started first kick and ran, but because of the zero voltage direct from the battery etc (the battery was totally dead and wouldn't accept any charge) the bike ran fine and ticked over lovely albeit a bit fast due to the EI going full advanced. The only time it proved to be an issue was when the lights were on and you shut the throttle down for a bend.... Then the lights would go dim and it would start banging down the exhaust.

Originally Posted by quinten
works on Samsung Android browser
image snagged from johns article
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[Linked Image from vintagebikemagazine.com]

Thanks Quinten, wierdly it still doesnt show but it does on the office PC through firefox, I was viewing before through safai on the iPhone.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: Lightning won't idle
PeterZielenski #814688 07/01/20 3:36 pm
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My initial take on this was that it had something to do with the needle/needle jet, but we'll see. I know when I raised the needles in my Mikunis (for midrange performance reasons), it richened my idle mixture, so there is some overlap, at least with Mikunis. And the chart in the "AMAL Concentric Tuning Guide" shows overlap there as well. If there weren't, you would not have to raise the slides at all to make the engine run.

But for now, let me try to set your minds at rest about the electrics. I've been running electronic ignition on MY A65 for many years, and I'm intimately familiar with all of the related battery and charging issues. I've been advising Peter of the same all along, and everything on his bike is brand new, alternator, rectifier/regulator, ammeter, EI, battery, and all switches and wiring. All indications are that battery voltage is good, and the strobe light did not show any sign of an electrical misfire.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: Lightning won't idle
PeterZielenski #814695 07/01/20 5:05 pm
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Sounds A1 on the electrics, has the motor got a dedicated ground wire?
Just for kicks, I know its got new stuff, but we are fault finding, stick a hot wire from battery terminal to EI power in, and see if the fault is still there, it could be a bad crimp somewhere.

Back to the carbs.
I have never adjusted AMAL floats, but I read here about stay up floats being different from the old plastic types.
So long as they were both the same I would be happy.
These are new carbs, it would seem fair to assume the slides are not too worn.
As master JH commented earlier, the pilot system is fairly independent of the needle jet , it does need some air through the slide but its discharges are separate from the NJ, yeah they overlap, no idle is not the NJ, .

Pilot jet fuel is lifted through the wee hole in the float bowl bottom , passes through bowl gasket face drilling then to the mixing chamber where it says hello to the metered air from the carb mouth bell drilling, I would be looking very hard indeed at the continuity of all those passages. its hard to imagine a new float bowl being warped but its not out of the question, if the pilot fuel passage can suck air at the bowl joint then thats game over until the surfaces are mated correctly. i hope its not that.


Whats doubly weird, its twin carbs , right? I know with my twin carbs, even if one is a bit bad the inlet balance pipe helps share out a runnable mix, so for both to have a manufacturing fault that nixes the pilot settings seems unlikely, not impossible though.

As a starting point for the carbs, pilot air screw one turn out, let slide bottom then raise two whole turns with the throttle stop .

Have you got chokes fitted? If not, have you plugged the cable inlets ,?

I was taught a primitive carb cleaning trick that sometimes saves a lot of messing around, it pertains more to contaminated fuel, but it can sometimes help clear a passage with no strip down.

Remove air filter so you can slap your palm over the inlet, start motor, rev up a bit, slap palm over inlet.

Crude, very effective sometimes, it wont clear a plugged pilot jet though, it will shift water.

Some insects like to crawl into open holes, my Cagiva attracts a tank overflow breather fly.
Clutching at straws here.
Some other off the wall and on the wall carb faults I have been party to.
Slides in the wrong carbs, I dont think you can do this with Amals , you can with Mics. 5 mpg.
Float catching , either on gasket or flashing rubbing against bowl. Usually floods.
Wrong float bowls with small feed orifice at float valve.There are numbers on the bowl you can look up on the AMAL site. Wont affect idle.
Dislodged needles, easy to do , if I dont put my specs on. Wont affect idle.
Air leaks at inlet flange / mount rubbers. High idle /spit back
Shite float needles / seats, causes flooding.
Bad HT leads, missfire above 3K.
Rags left in one carb port, Doh! Only runs on one.
Carb lid on the wrong way round, never done it, put its quite possible, shouldnt affect mixture.
12 volt coils v 6 volt, easier starting and more pull at higher RPMs with 6 volt. Shouldnt affect idle.
Faulty ignition switch, cut outs, stalls, backfires. Will idle then stop.

Carbs can be weird, a good machinist up the road from me made new close fit slides for his A65,maybe 0.001 fit instead of the stock AMAL 0.003 or more. His bike wouldnt run, he borrowed an old set from me and it ran fine.
If you could borrow another set that would help a great deal.If the fault persists you could safely rule out the carbs, untill then , best O luck, hing in there.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Lightning won't idle
PeterZielenski #814718 07/01/20 8:09 pm
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Thanks for all the ideas Gavin. Note I'm four hours away from the Lightning now, so my info will be second-hand from here on. I'm in daily communication with Peter though, and he's following this thread as well. Right now I'm waiting for the results of his next test, and I'll update again when I know more.

I have a pair of freshly rebuilt AMAL Concentrics in my garage that I know work. If worse comes to worst, I'll mail them to Peter to try.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: Lightning won't idle
PeterZielenski #814725 07/01/20 8:49 pm
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"Have you got chokes fitted? If not, have you plugged the cable inlets ,? "

This has been asked twice recently. Can we eliminate this possibility?

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