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BSA A10 SPITFIRE 1960/61 INFO REQUIRED.
#814052 06/26/20 10:32 am
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Hello Everyone, I wonder if someone on this forum has a 1960 or 1961 BSA Spitfire Scrambler and if they have, maybe they could settle a discussion that i have been having with a guy. In 1960 the BSA Spitfire Scrambler Numbers were Engine DA10SR 101 and Frame Number GA7A 101 and in 1961 The Numbers were Engine DA10SR 401 and the Frame Number GA7A 401. I said that the engine and frame numbers matched on all Spitfires for these two years. He says that they don't match. I think i am right as i saw one for sale on eBay a couple of years ago and it had matching numbers. Over to you guys for the answer. Cheers. Billy.

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Re: BSA A10 SPITFIRE 1960/61 INFO REQUIRED.
billy banger #814063 06/26/20 12:25 pm
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Might be a question for Andy Lorenz or Steve Foden at the BSAOC Library. However they would need the frame number at least I would think to be able to look this up for you, as despatch records are all in numerical order, so they could be: 4 golden flashes, followed by a super rocket, followed by another golden flash followed by a Spitfire or RGS.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: BSA A10 SPITFIRE 1960/61 INFO REQUIRED.
billy banger #814070 06/26/20 1:42 pm
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As the later Unit models did not match until mid 66 model year and all the other pre Unit models never matched except for the odd chance I doubt the Spitfire Scrambler would match.

Quote
Please note that from January/February 1966 all frame and engine numbers were the same.


IE. The B44 VE would Have frame number B44E1145 and engine number B44E1145


The Royal Star frame and engine prefix would be A50R
With matching numbers.

and the A65 Hornet prefix would be A65H
With matching numbers.

Re: BSA A10 SPITFIRE 1960/61 INFO REQUIRED.
billy banger #814095 06/26/20 6:10 pm
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I'll bet somebody re-stamped the numbers on the eBay one.

Re: BSA A10 SPITFIRE 1960/61 INFO REQUIRED.
billy banger #814127 06/26/20 9:32 pm
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According to the notes I made another world away in the VMCC library last August, any matching engine and frame numbers would just have been a coincidence.

The BSAOC has them computerised now, which should make things much simpler for them. The club offered to let people look up their bike on a computer at the BSA International, but I never seemed to be in the right place at the right time.

As Allan says, the book list machines in numerical order based on the frame number. One saving grace is that the less common models tend to be in blocks. To counter that, the frame and engine prefix tended not to be recorded. Presumably, the factory knew the prefixes for the model year, so were only concerned with the numbers and any distinguishing features.

Re: BSA A10 SPITFIRE 1960/61 INFO REQUIRED.
Shane in Oz #814142 06/26/20 11:34 pm
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does this make any sense ?

if 500cc engines start ar 101
and 650cc engines start at 101
and they both go into frames starting at 101

the engine sequence / frame match goes out of match
the first time a different engine displacement is fitted .

for a Spitfire Scrambler to have matching numbers
The first production off the line at start of production year
Would have had to have been
an order for Spitfire Scramblers ... or a restamp

Re: BSA A10 SPITFIRE 1960/61 INFO REQUIRED.
billy banger #814172 06/27/20 6:51 am
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Engines and frames were stamped before They were paired together on earlier bikes, in such case as one of my fathers A10’s it was actually listed on the log book as having 4 engine numbers lower than the one it really had. Presumably there was an issue on the road test and it went back in to be addressed.

Pre unit 500’s and 650’s, their frame numbers would all start GA7 However it’s likely that there was a DA7 101 and a DA10 101 engine number. So there might be 1, or rather 1 off EA7, FA7, GA7 but that’s about it. I doubt there would be any under GA10 frames as I believe Super rocket motors were pulled off the production line and re-worked in the competition shop. But I don’t know if that’s true.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: BSA A10 SPITFIRE 1960/61 INFO REQUIRED.
billy banger #814174 06/27/20 7:58 am
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The A10 scramble models are a bit unusual in that the CA7A, FA7A and GA7A frames were only used for Rocket Scamblers/Spitfire Scramblers, The CA10SR and DA10SR engines were also only used on the Rocket/Spitfire Scrambler.

While that avoids the out-of-sequence issues encountered with the other A7 and A10 models, BSA doesn't appear to have gone to any extra effort to match frame and engine numbers on the scramblers. My notes show a couple which were only a couple of numbers off, but I was really only checking specific machines rather than entire model ranges.

The 1962 and 1963 Spitfire Scrambler models had GA7A frames and engines stamped DA10R, as per the Super Rockets.
The Rocket Gold Star Scramblers don't even get a mention in most places, but they are shown as such in the despatch book.

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Re: BSA A10 SPITFIRE 1960/61 INFO REQUIRED.
billy banger #814265 06/28/20 8:53 am
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Hello Shane, you would have thought with such a low production number that the 1960 and 61 spitfires were, 400 units 1960 and 156 units 1961 that they would have taken the trouble to match the frame and engine numbers but it looks not to be the case. I found a couple of bikes that were sold at auction and both bikes were off on the numbers by three. It would appear that the frames were made and stamped and the engines were made made and stamped and it looks like when they were built, they just grabbed a frame and an engine that were both numbered and probably never even bothered to look at either number. The bike i saw on eBay had matching engine and frame numbers and they looked correct. Chances are, a few of the bikes would have matching numbers purely by chance as Kommando said. The most bizarre thing of all is and this could happen is lets say someone had passed away and he was a BSA Spitfire nut who collected these bikes over a lifetime, lets say he had 25 of them and he pulled them all apart to restore them and never got round to it. Someone goes into his storage to get the parts out and there could be engines and frames that match up on the numbers but are a mismatch in the factory records. Doesn't get any more dafter than that. You then have matching numbers and it's wrong. Cheers. Billy.

Re: BSA A10 SPITFIRE 1960/61 INFO REQUIRED.
billy banger #814270 06/28/20 11:58 am
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Originally Posted by billy banger
The most bizarre thing of all is and this could happen is lets say someone had passed away and he was a BSA Spitfire nut who collected these bikes over a lifetime, lets say he had 25 of them and he pulled them all apart to restore them and never got round to it. Someone goes into his storage to get the parts out and there could be engines and frames that match up on the numbers but are a mismatch in the factory records. Doesn't get any more dafter than that. You then have matching numbers and it's wrong. Cheers. Billy.
With 25 of them, it's quite on the cards that there would be some engine numbers which matched the frame numbers. That's more likely with the 1957, '58. '60 and '61 machines.
As it happens, I found that one of my A65 engines belonged to another frame I had, so coincidences do occur.

Re: BSA A10 SPITFIRE 1960/61 INFO REQUIRED.
billy banger #814273 06/28/20 12:29 pm
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My original paint 60 Spitfire numbers are separated by 5.
103 &108.
As verified by the dispatch records

An interesting dealer variation on the the standard Spitfire
[img]http://[/img]

Attached Files Spitfire Roadster.jpg

Coming to terms with your delusions, is the first step to sanity
Re: BSA A10 SPITFIRE 1960/61 INFO REQUIRED.
billy banger #814353 06/28/20 10:06 pm
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This is all academic, the frames could never match the engines as the frames had the prefixes CA7, EA7, FA7 & GA7 plus the odd low numbers of others.
Engines were CA7, CA7SS, CA10, CA10S, CA10RR, CA10R, DA10, DA10R & DA10SR and any I have missed.
It seems to me that the only ones which could have matched were the CA7 but with the frames being used on so many different models it would be unlikely.

Re: BSA A10 SPITFIRE 1960/61 INFO REQUIRED.
billy banger #814363 06/28/20 10:37 pm
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The Spitfire frames also had an extra "A" (FA7A, GA7A)


Coming to terms with your delusions, is the first step to sanity
Re: BSA A10 SPITFIRE 1960/61 INFO REQUIRED.
billy banger #814591 06/30/20 7:50 pm
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THE NUMBERS ON MY 57 SPITFIRE ARE ONLY ONE DIGIT APART. IN 1957 THE FRAME PREFIX WAS CA7A AND THE ENGINE PREFIX WAS CA10SR

Attached Files BSA_ (2).jpgBSA_ (3).jpgBSA_ (4).jpgBSA_ (10).jpgBSA_ (8).jpg
Last edited by Spitfire Ken; 06/30/20 7:55 pm.

I APOLOGIZE FOR THE USE OF CAPS. I CAN ONLY TYPE WITH MY RIGHT HAND SO USING THE SHIFT KEY IS BEYOND MY CAPABILITES.

The Devil is in the details.

1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (numbers matching, very correct, very nice condition)
1965 BSA A65 Lightning Rocket "Clubman" (restored)
1966 BSA A65 Spitfire MK-II (restored)
1967 BSA A65 West Coast Hornet (under restoration)
1975 Norton Commando Roadster (2100 miles)
2001 Kawasaki W650

Moderated by  Allan G, Jon W. Whitley 

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