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A65 Clutch Adjustment Problem
#813452 06/21/20 7:54 pm
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I'm attempting to adjust the clutch on this A65 rebuild. I've got way too much slack in the system. With clutch springs set just a tad past flush, and the adjuster screw bottomed out there is way too much movement at the plunger. Looking at the parts diagram. I think this might be the problem. The parts diagram shows the ball separate. Should the ball be crammed down in the plunger like this?

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Re: A65 Clutch Adjustment Problem
Tracey Spear #813454 06/21/20 8:24 pm
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Can I get away with this?

While waiting for a proper answer........ I took one of the balls from the stock steering head bearing, greased the plunger, stuck the ball in there, and assembled it. That got me the 1/16 inch wiggle room between the plunger and the lever. Handlebar lever adjustment took care of slack. Hand feel is MUCH better. Plate movement is approximately 0.05 inches.

Will that fly? or do I need to order a new plunger and ball? OH. Here's what the adjustment screw looks line with a pair of balls.
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Re: A65 Clutch Adjustment Problem
Tracey Spear #813455 06/21/20 8:37 pm
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Do you have the split ferule on the abutment piece? Photo of your little ball looks okay to me. When I have a problem I root thru the clutch rod collection for different lengths, haven't yet had to stick something extra in there.

Re: A65 Clutch Adjustment Problem
Tracey Spear #813458 06/21/20 8:43 pm
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I just realized I don't know what year you got there.

Re: A65 Clutch Adjustment Problem
Tracey Spear #813462 06/21/20 9:08 pm
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'69 Thunderbolt

Do you have the split ferule on the abutment piece? Yes.

I don't have a collection of clutch rods. I have the parts from this bike. The new parts are friction plates, internal rubbers, and new springs.

If the ball is in the correct position, shouldn't it come out?

I don't know what correct looks like, but the ball appears to me to be jammed down in there.

Seems reasonable to me for the clutch rod to have a pair of balls.... facepalm

Re: A65 Clutch Adjustment Problem
Tracey Spear #813463 06/21/20 9:26 pm
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So you have the early 69 setup with cable coming in the back horizontally? I guess an extra ball will add a lot of clutching ability. Some bike I have worked on in the past had an extra ball in the middle of the rod's path, that worked well.

I still suspect your rod is too short...........only one ball and a short rod, jeezus. This can be encountered after you have installed a new clutch with thicker plates than the old worn ones.

Re: A65 Clutch Adjustment Problem
Tracey Spear #813469 06/21/20 10:07 pm
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So you have the early 69 setup with cable coming in the back horizontally? Yes.

I kicked it over to check clutch operation, seems about right. That bearing ball ought to be hard enough.

Unless someone jumps in with warnings of apocalyptic doom, I recon I'll leave it in there.

Re: A65 Clutch Adjustment Problem
Tracey Spear #813473 06/21/20 10:27 pm
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it looks like the ball shown in the first pic ... is too small and dropping too far into the hollowed out bolt .
the examples ive seen have the ball flush with the cup it sits in .. .
... but that bolt looks different , like its extra long to completely capture the push rod ? ... a custom piece ?

Clutch Rod length is 11 1/16" length x 7/32" diameter. ...

Re: A65 Clutch Adjustment Problem
Tracey Spear #813475 06/21/20 10:38 pm
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The push rod ball should sit free in the bottom of the cup, its not unusual to find a slightly oversized ball stuck solid in there, the one that jams is 3/16 the correct ball is 1/32 smaller, push bike places have loads
, the clutch adjuster screw in the pic is too far out, this will hit the chain case cover plug.
As the clutch wears down the screw is backed out to maintain push rod free gap, if you have fresh plates the screw tip should be nearly flush with the nut.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: A65 Clutch Adjustment Problem
Tracey Spear #813477 06/21/20 10:54 pm
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Quote
The push rod ball should sit free in the bottom of the cup


... so the push rod end is meant fit inside the bolt ?

Re: A65 Clutch Adjustment Problem
Tracey Spear #813526 06/22/20 6:48 am
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Does on mine but only by a mm or 2


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: A65 Clutch Adjustment Problem
gavin eisler #813528 06/22/20 7:12 am
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
The push rod ball should sit free in the bottom of the cup, its not unusual to find a slightly oversized ball stuck solid in there, the one that jams is 3/16 the correct ball is 1/32 smaller, push bike places have loads
It may be that the ball should sit deeper into the plunger, but that would aggravate the original problem, which was too much slack in the linkage.
Originally Posted by gavin eisler
, the clutch adjuster screw in the pic is too far out, this will hit the chain case cover plug.
As the clutch wears down the screw is backed out to maintain push rod free gap, if you have fresh plates the screw tip should be nearly flush with the nut.
It is the opposite Gavin; Clutch wear causes MORE slack in the linkage, which is corrected by turning the adjuster screw IN. The screw being so far out indicates too LITTLE slack in the linkage, which was caused by Tracey's adding an extra ball.

So adding an extra ball is not the answer, nor is having the correct ball in the plunger. I don't know what the answer is, but I think we're still in diagnosis mode. Tracey, what has changed since it was "ok"? (Note: Tension on the clutch springs is not a factor in this equation.)


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: A65 Clutch Adjustment Problem
Tracey Spear #813536 06/22/20 8:29 am
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"itss the opposite Gavin; Clutch wear causes MORE slack in the linkage, which is corrected by turning the adjuster screw IN. The screw being so far out indicates too LITTLE slack in the linkage, which was caused by Tracey's adding an extra ball."

You fail to understand how clutch wear affects push rod clearance.

As the plate stack gets thinner the pressure plate moves closer to the sprocket, the push rod gap closes up.
You wont be the first or the last to get this wrong.
After a clutch is assembled with fresh parts its a good idea to leave a generous one whole turn end gap ,the gap closes quickly as it initially beds down. Push rod clearance should be 1.5 mm .This is what the factory manual asks for.

The Ops problem is a mixture of wrong ball and possibly wrong length push rod.
there is no mention of the ball bearing dimensions in the manual, its certainly come up here before. Try googling,
" Britbike forum, A65 clutch push rod ball bearing size"

Last edited by gavin eisler; 06/22/20 6:02 pm. Reason: Corrected end gap info

71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: A65 Clutch Adjustment Problem
gavin eisler #813563 06/22/20 2:47 pm
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
The Ops problem is a mixture of wrong ball and possibly wrong length push rod.

Gavin: I guess I'm confused why I have this problem. This bike was, I assume, operational when it was stored some 40 years ago. And again, I assume, the clutch worked. So it's hard for me to understand how replacing the friction plates would require a change in clutch rod length. And it's totally possible the previous owner jacked it up some how.

Yet my problem upon reassembly was original the configuration left way too much slack in the system. The plunger/ball was the only part that looked suspect. As set up with an extra ball, the adjustment screw does not contact the case plug. Maybe as the plates wear in I can remove the extra ball?

Short of ordering a new plunger and ball, I'm stuck with two balls and a short rod.

Thanks

Re: A65 Clutch Adjustment Problem
Tracey Spear #813576 06/22/20 5:51 pm
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there are a lot of variations in new friction plate type thickness, you may have the fatter type.
Push rods wear, get bent , lost, who knows what happened to yours.
Double check the case plug clearance, plug removed, mark the plug inner face with black sharpie,
replace plug, operate clutch, kick over, remove plug inspect sharpie for witness marks.
This is one way to bend a push rod if clearance is insufficient.
Once its all working, check pushrod clearance at 100, 500, 1,000 miles it will settle a lot to begin with then slow down, every 2K or so after that, failure to do this wears the push rod and can lead to clutch slip.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 06/22/20 5:54 pm.

71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: A65 Clutch Adjustment Problem
Tracey Spear #813589 06/22/20 6:50 pm
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Or stuff the inspection cap with plasticine (modeling clay). You should be able to feel the nut hitting the cap when working the clutch.

Re: A65 Clutch Adjustment Problem
gavin eisler #813647 06/23/20 6:50 am
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
"itss the opposite Gavin; Clutch wear causes MORE slack in the linkage, which is corrected by turning the adjuster screw IN. The screw being so far out indicates too LITTLE slack in the linkage, which was caused by Tracey's adding an extra ball."

You fail to understand how clutch wear affects push rod clearance.

As the plate stack gets thinner the pressure plate moves closer to the sprocket, the push rod gap closes up.
You wont be the first or the last to get this wrong.

OOPS! Of all the times I've gone over this in my head, I still get it wrong now and then. Thanks for a gentle rebuke Gavin.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.

Moderated by  Allan G, Jon W. Whitley 

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