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Kick lever loose
#807319 04/30/20 8:59 pm
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Nick H Online Content OP
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My A65 kick lever is loose and will shift back and forth an inch or two as if the cotter pin is not holding it.
I ordered a second pin from "BSA nut" on eBay because I heard the BSA ones were special
but it looks basically the same and doesn't work any better.

Yes, I have the nut facing forward.

I even put the pin in "upside down" as a test - and it doesn't tighten.
Has anyone seen this? Would a shim help?


1966 BSA Lightning
(2) 1967 Triumph "Choppa"s
1974 Indian ME125
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Re: Kick lever loose
Nick H #807321 04/30/20 9:27 pm
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A couple of things to check are whether the flat/cutout on the quadrant is actually flat, often they get worn on the edges so the cotter doesn't fit well, also check whether the kickstart is a loose fit on the quadrant, if it is loose then the cotter pin will have a hard time keeping the two together.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Kick lever loose
Nick H #807326 04/30/20 9:47 pm
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Another thing to check is you have the right kickstart lever for the quadrant. The 71 on quadrants/levers had the cotterpin further out from centre than the pre oif type. The oif quadrants are also longer.

Is it possible that you have an pre oif style quadrant with an oif levee? (If it’s the other way round the quadrant won’t fit at all)


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: Kick lever loose
Nick H #807340 04/30/20 11:52 pm
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I've always assumed that cotter pin engineering has been defined since very early days (taper, chord), though applications may require different toughness of pins (bicycle crank, motorcycle kickstart, many other sprocket/gear applications).

As Gunner said, if the K/S shaft groove has suffered by losing its flatness/sharpness (particularly at the rear end of the groove) it will increase the rate of wear on the cotter pin.
All the kick-starting torque is on that area.

If the groove is good, the pin is of decent material and fitted/tightened correctly (should be knocked in as the wedge they are), and a controlled kickstart action employed, the pin/shaft will never come loose.
But if by one or more of the above being deficient, a slight looseness develops between the kick lever and the spindle, then all the wear begins, and it will eventually wear the groove in the shaft such that it needs replacing.

I'm not in complete aggreement with the principle of placing the cotter pin with the nut forward. The maximum area of the cotter pin is at the nut end. I prefer to put the cotter in from the front, so that maximum area is on the rear of the shaft groove, where all of the force is exerted.
Placing it the "conventional" way puts the smallest contact area of the pin at the high stress point.
(ps I speak from a Triumph experience, I don't know if BSA k/s levers perhaps don't allow such a reversal)

Reversing the cotter pin as I describe will result in the k/s lever leaning back a little further than it was originally (something about 10-15 deg or so) so no big deal in most situations.

Re: Kick lever loose
Nick H #807359 05/01/20 1:56 am
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all i did was use a piece of quite thick shim between the cotter taper and the shaft ........helped a lot till i finally got round to getting a better pin


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
Re: Kick lever loose
Nick H #807380 05/01/20 5:15 am
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The Triumph cotter pin has more machined off than the BSA one until the OIF, order a BSA one and you risk getting a Triumph one and then its loose. I have a couple of ones with no flat at all for getting it just right where I have a mix or parts but the only nearly sure way of getting a BSA cotter is to order from someone who only supplies BSA parts such as Peter at BSA Unit Singles. But first check for rounded corners etc.

Re: Kick lever loose
Nick H #807397 05/01/20 12:23 pm
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I just use a couple of shims and let it go at that. Makes it "Tighter than Dick's hatband".

Mr Mike

Re: Kick lever loose
Nick H #807405 05/01/20 1:48 pm
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If you have had the lever off, you have seen the groove in the shaft. Yes, the pins come in various manufactured condition like all repo parts, not the best. If the groove is deformed such that the surface is not flat, it’s a lost cause fighting the issue. The lever holes can also get deformed and contribute to the slop. Your options are: just use it as good as you can make it work / replace the kick quadrant / lever with a better oneS, not easy to find one with good teeth AND a flat groove, or perfect pin hole!
I saw a guy with the lever welded to the shaft! Fixed his real good!


Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
1 '65 XLCH, Hernia Gift, on the way to Japan!
Re: Kick lever loose
Nick H #807426 05/01/20 5:17 pm
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Don't know what variety of parts I have here. The quadrant slot seems fairly good.
I ended up shimming it. Used a double thickness of .035 sheet metal in little squares.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com][Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


1966 BSA Lightning
(2) 1967 Triumph "Choppa"s
1974 Indian ME125
Re: Kick lever loose
Nick H #807438 05/01/20 7:03 pm
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Way back bicycle shops used to sell cottar pins with different depths of flat, including no flat so you could file them to fit. maybe find an old fashioned cycle shop and try your luck


BSA B31 500 "Stargazer"
Greeves 200 "Blue Meanie"
Greeves 350
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Re: Kick lever loose
Nick H #807441 05/01/20 7:23 pm
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while i think of it what i also did was put a few turns of thread on the large end of the pin so that when i had fitted it really tightly i didnt have to hit that small thread on the other end to get it back out ......i just put a nut on the large thread (that i had added) and pulled it off its taper like that ......ok not exactly parts book fix but i thought it was a good idea and it worked.


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
Re: Kick lever loose
Nick H #807448 05/01/20 8:17 pm
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Cottar pins were never intended to remove and re insert, they were consumables


BSA B31 500 "Stargazer"
Greeves 200 "Blue Meanie"
Greeves 350
Greeves 360
Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500 sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500 "Llareggub"
Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
'35 & '36 OK Supreme
Kawasaki ZZR1400 "Kuro no senshi"
Re: Kick lever loose
Nick H #807452 05/01/20 8:43 pm
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What's not appreciate sometimes, is that cotter pins are a kind of wedge, and when tightened, they pull the kickstart shaft and quadrant tightly together to form a solid one piece component. As already mentioned, wear in the quadrant slot and kickstart hole can cause problems. Using shims to take up slack are one way of alleviating the problem and I have also heard of people using some form of loctite on the quadrant and kicker after tightening the cotter. What's certain is that all parts should be oil and grease free so that the parts cant slip apart too easily.

Ideally use new components and then you will have a much better chance of success.

Last edited by gunner; 05/01/20 8:45 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Kick lever loose
Nick H #807463 05/01/20 10:17 pm
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Nick, you have the problem I mentioned. An oif kick start lever with a pre oif quadrant. You want the correct pre oif lever.

As mentioned the OIF lever has its cotter pin further outboard than the pre oif type. You can fit the biggest pin in you could find and it would still not fit.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: Kick lever loose
Nick H #807476 05/02/20 12:00 am
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"Oversize" kick cotter pins are also available. These have less taken off the cotter bevel and the bevel is shorter. Made for worn kick levers and worn kick quads. Sometimes they do the trick.

Peter


check out: www.bsaunitsingles.com
2500 BSA part numbers with inventory in stock just for the unit singles!
Re: Kick lever loose
Nick H #807512 05/02/20 9:02 am
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A link to both types of quadrant

Oif quadrant look through the images, you’ll see the depth of the cut away is shallow, this is because the cotter pin doesn’t sit as deeply into the shaft (the cotter pin is the same between both oif and pre oif)

Another link for oif type


Struggling to find images of pre oif type

However: Pre oif kickstart quadrant you should be able to see a deeper cut away.

It doesn’t help that some of the OIF quadrants have the pre oif numbers cast, this is probably because the number is cast into the gear piece and welded together afterwards so you need to have a vendor that knows what they are looking at to sell you the right one, because of this I have several oif types. The correct one for my Lightning is second hand because that’s all I could find at the time, they have since started making new ones.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: Kick lever loose
Nick H #807535 05/02/20 1:17 pm
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Nick H Online Content OP
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Thanks Allan for the info! I think I can see the difference.


1966 BSA Lightning
(2) 1967 Triumph "Choppa"s
1974 Indian ME125
Re: Kick lever loose
Nick H #807581 05/02/20 6:44 pm
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This will be over a few posts,

I did some measurements and comparisons between pre oif/oif quadrants and same With the levers. The cranked lever is the Pre Oif type.

Just a side note I did start using a cotter pin but it was a little
Worn as it was an old one and upon tapping it out it disappeared somewhere in the garage. The diameter of the pin is 3/8” so I’ve shaved a 3/8” bolt, it’s enough to show
A comparison.


The two quadrants. The OIF one is noticeably longer (this one is NOS)
[Linked Image]

Then I took several measurements

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Lastly the depth.
[Linked Image]

Last edited by Allan G; 05/02/20 6:45 pm.

Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: Kick lever loose
Nick H #807582 05/02/20 6:47 pm
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Same with the pre oif quadrant. There’s about 1mm (0.040”) difference in depth[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

And again the depth

[Linked Image]


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: Kick lever loose
Nick H #807585 05/02/20 6:56 pm
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A quick pic of the bolt I shaved.

[Linked Image]

Oif kicker with oif quadrant, the bolt pokes through a couple
Of threads

[Linked Image]

Pre oif Kicker and oif quadrant. The bolt doesn’t even reach the end. I’ve tried this setup in the past, in reality you can’t shave the cotter pin enough as the threaded portion won’t pass through.

[Linked Image]


Pre oif kicker and pre oif quadrant, the pokes through more than the first picture so this confirms that there are different depths of cut between triumph and BSA style. The triumph would
Need to be cut more to pass through further.

[Linked Image]

And lastly, this is your setup, an Oif kicker with a pre oif quadrant. The bolt passes straight though. I also did this with an unshaven bolt. Even with this you can rock the lever back and two.

[Linked Image]


Hope this helps.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: Kick lever loose
Nick H #807622 05/02/20 11:26 pm
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I just recently as in the last few days, figured out I had mismatched parts. In my case, I had an OIF quadrant and was trying to fit a 1970 and earlier kicker. The quadrant was an NOS part that was sent to me for my 1970 A65F Firebird. Of course,when I fitted it, I had no clue there was a difference. And, as Allan stated, the gear is cast with the previous part number 68-3094. Just today, I swapped it out for the correct quadrant and other changes that needed to be performed. Now, everything is as it should be !!

Attached Files BSA #30.jpgBSA #29.jpg

Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1968 T100R Daytona 500
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1970 BSA A65F 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project
1971 BSA A65 650 - Project
1972 Norton Commando 750 "Combat"


"Every time I listen to AC/DC, so do my neighbors"

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Re: Kick lever loose
Nick H #807674 05/03/20 11:45 am
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Thanks again Allan! Very informative photos.


1966 BSA Lightning
(2) 1967 Triumph "Choppa"s
1974 Indian ME125
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Re: Kick lever loose
Nick H #807693 05/03/20 1:50 pm
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Your welcome Nick,

Its worth noting that the cotter pin is a sacrificial part (I usually buy several of them and keep one in my spares although I loose almost as many as I buy), soon as they start getting worn they want changing.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: Kick lever loose
Nick H #808566 05/11/20 1:31 pm
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Hi Nick,

For years I have used a tip I saw in the long defunct Motorcycle Mechanics magazine back in the early ‘60s, and it does seem to work well. You make the cotter pin from a piece of a 3/8" high tensile bolt. It pays to use one with a fine thread, like Cycle or UNF. You cut the bolt head off and file away a flat on the side of the threaded region to make a cotter pin-like profile to form the wedge that will jam against the cutaway on the kick starter shaft, though it's best if you arrange that the taper on the wedge does not continue linearly after enough clearance to pass the pin past the shaft cutaway has been made. That way, you can make a cotter pin where about 2/3 the diameter of the bolt is still present. That leaves enough section so it will accept the nut that draws in the bolt.

As a practical point, you may need a thick washer to fill any cutaway that is machined into the nut's seating on the k/s arm. A 3/8" nut will draw this type of cotter pin in really tight and I've never had a k/s fitted this way, work loose. Also, on my early A65, you have to tighten the nut so the face closest to the gearbox cover casting is parallel to it, or it can foul the casting.

If I recollect correctly, many years ago, some kickstart cotter pins had the rare 9/32" Cycle thread on them instead of the much more common 1/4".

I would have shown a photo of the fitted thingy but I can't get incorporating an inline photo to work for me - apologies.

Jon

Re: Kick lever loose
Nick H #808571 05/11/20 2:01 pm
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The cotter pins are soft so they are sacrificial, if you do replace with a hardened pin then you need to ensure everything is like new and the pin never comes loose. If a hardened pin comes loose then it will eat into the much more expensive kick shaft.

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