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Petrol with ethanol rust
#803245 03/29/20 8:59 am
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We are not supposed to go out on pleasure rides in the UK and I haven't ridden my 650 since the end of last year. Will the ethanol in the fuel rust the tank? Should I empty it?

Also could I put the fuel in my car or could there be some residue in the tank that might damage the catalytic converter? I haven't used leaded fuel in it myself over the 17 years I have had it but in the past someone may have. When I first had the bike the stations sold something called lead free four star which I used. I then used an additive for a bit until I realised I didn't have to. Anything in these? Have been using high octane unleaded for several years with nothing added.

Dave

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Re: Petrol with ethanol rust
dave jones #803261 03/29/20 12:53 pm
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My car runs on super unleaded (v power) and so I run a cub and t140 on it. My normal system is to wait to the car is 1/4 full and then drain the bike tanks into a fuel can. I drive to a garage and add the old fuel, then fill the car, diluting any "bad" fuel. Then also fill the petrol can. Go home and fill the bikes.

Neither tank is lined

Afaik it's the water in ethanol fuel that separates out and causes rust? I don't seem to have an issue.
Garage joined to the house and well insulated btw

Re: Petrol with ethanol rust
dave jones #803263 03/29/20 1:35 pm
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Ethanol attracts water, then in storage the water drops out of solution into balls of water that drop to the bottom of the tank which is why it promotes rust on the bottom of the tank. I stick old fuel in the car and the MOT test says the catalytic converter is unaffected.

Re: Petrol with ethanol rust
dave jones #803271 03/29/20 2:45 pm
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Ok, thanks very much for both answers.

Dave

Re: Petrol with ethanol rust
dave jones #803394 03/30/20 9:32 am
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Hi, I've had the same dilemma. At the end of the season I drained my 2 tanks and used that in the lawnmower, strimmer etc. Last year I did use 95 octane and added the octane booster/lead additive, at least until I discovered that 97 octane has no ethanol. I didn't put the end of season petrol in the car as I too was concerned about the cat.

So, because I was concerned about contaminating the cat, I used the petrol up where it didn't matter. I put a stabilizer in it and the mower started up just fine a couple of weeks ago, on 4 or 5 month old petrol.

I'm only using 97 octane now, which currently has no ethanol (Esso and Texaco) but will in due course AIUI.

FWIW, I've lined both of my tanks with the Caswell epoxy kits. My 750 had the m/cycle sized kit, and it wasn't enough - even on a US spec tank. I lined my T100R (UK spec) tank with a car-sized kit, and that was too much and I threw about 30% of the mix away. The T100R tank is really well lined though, the 750 has the bottom half lined, so I suppose that'll be sufficient.

Both bikes are stored in a heated and very dry garage, so the opportunity for water absorption into the fuel is much reduced.

Re: Petrol with ethanol rust
dave jones #803398 03/30/20 9:39 am
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I'm only using 97 octane now, which currently has no ethanol (Esso and Texaco)

Except for Scotland and SW England where everything is E05 even the 97 octane.

Re: Petrol with ethanol rust
kommando #803404 03/30/20 11:12 am
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Yes, that's true. I was thinking about my locality here on the Cheshire/Shropshire border. I've specifically asked the question of the 2 garages I habitually use and both have confirmed no ethanol in 97 octane at their sites. For now, anyway. Not that I'll be buying much for the next few weeks, or months?)

Re: Petrol with ethanol rust
dave jones #803405 03/30/20 11:42 am
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Just don't want someone coming to Scotland with their lined or fibreglass tank thinking they can avoid Ethanol.

Re: Petrol with ethanol rust
kommando #803406 03/30/20 12:11 pm
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Originally Posted by kommando
Quote
I'm only using 97 octane now, which currently has no ethanol (Esso and Texaco)

Except for Scotland and SW England where everything is E05 even the 97 octane.

Where do you base this knowlege from John? When E5 is listed on pumps it is merely a mention of the total allowable ethanol content in that type of fuel and not the actual content, same for Diesel when you see B7 (Bio-Diesel 7%)


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Re: Petrol with ethanol rust
dave jones #803409 03/30/20 1:50 pm
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Where do you base this knowledge from John?

Esso, when you ask them they tell you they guarantee E0 in 97 except Scotland and SW England. Its due to Grangemouth refinery having a monopoly in Scotland and no E0, SW England must have the same issue.

https://www.esso.co.uk/fuels-faqs


Esso super unleaded petrol (Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded 97) is ethanol free (except in Devon, Cornwall, the Teesside area and Scotland). We would therefore advise anyone who has concerns about the presence of ethanol in petrol to use Synergy Supreme+ – providing they do not fill up in Devon or Cornwall, the Teesside area or Scotland.

Re: Petrol with ethanol rust
dave jones #803439 03/30/20 8:34 pm
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Fair enough, the furthest north Esso pipeline reaches the Birmingham terminal. So anything else will be/should be to Esso spec.

Do you have any Jet stations in your area?

Last edited by Allan Gill; 03/30/20 8:34 pm.

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Re: Petrol with ethanol rust
dave jones #803447 03/30/20 9:28 pm
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Yes, but it makes no difference, all comes from Grangemouth no matter the station name.

Jet website

Drivers looking to fill up at one of our 300+ JET branded petrol station forecourts throughout the UK currently have two fuel options: they can choose our regular JET petrol which contains up to 5% ethanol (E5) as per BS EN228 or, where it is available, they can choose our new JET ULTRA Premium Unleaded which is ethanol-free apart from in the Yorkshire and the Humber Region, Teesside or Scotland, where it contains 5% ethanol.

Re: Petrol with ethanol rust
dave jones #803745 04/02/20 5:15 pm
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Hi, We’ve had E10 for many years in California. From what I’ve observed it doesn’t seem to rust bottom of tanks more than the old days. However the air space in top of tank tends to rust much more than the old days.

E10 is certain death to fiber glass tanks. Softens the old white plastic AMAL floats allowing ears to bend. Deteriorated old version black rubber fuel lines & all the clear lines I’ve tried.

What I find interesting is it does not deteriorate banjo strainer screen. I don’t know what it’s made of.

Caswell claims their tank sealant is ethanol proof. I’ve found that to be true for me.

Regarding tank sealant it takes way more than you’d think to get full coverage. Especially later tanks with center tube.

I found rolling tank slowly works better but you don’t have all that much time so better to use excess than too little. Not cheap either. Maybe even 90% is lost but that’s the way it is. Working on cooler day is helpful as it slows cure time. Best to let cure for a full week or two.

I’ve observed for almost 3 years & no rusting under sealant has occurred. I used clear so I could monitor that & it looks unsealed like original.

The excess creates great heat when contained in a pail as it cures. Melted my plastic pail. Spontaneous combustion is possible. Just keep it mind.
Don


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Re: Petrol with ethanol rust
dave jones #803773 04/02/20 9:11 pm
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If you cant get hold of Esso Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded 97 which has no alcohol, you can use Briggs Fuel Fit® to prevent fuel problems with rust and fuel deterioration when stored over winter.

This winter I decided to prime the fuel tanks in all 3 of my bikes with the Briggs Fuel Fit additive. Recent starting attempts after some 4 months of storage showed the bikes all started easily and idled well showing the idle jet wasn't blocked. I could not see any signs of corrosion in the tanks so the product seems to work well.

Briggs Fuel Fit additive was initially designed for lawnmowers & tractors stored in barns which experience fuel degradation over winter. It seems to work well on motorcycles as well so I'm happy to keep using it.

Dosing is 10ml per 1 litre of fuel, so 1 250ml bottle treats 25 litres of fuel (5.5 gallons). After dosing run the engine for a few minutes then shut down and close the fuel taps. Costs around £7.50 for 250ml on eBay/Amazon etc.

See This Link for details.


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Re: Petrol with ethanol rust
dave jones #803777 04/02/20 9:37 pm
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Dismayed to see ethanol troubles in UK. Here in the colonies (Texas) we are forced by corrupt politics to use the stuff. If you can get it, StaBil fuel additive seems to prolong gasoline storage life. I have ruined many large and small engines with ethanol poison, including a beautiful Trophy 1200, the last of the Hinckley four bangers, with four small Keihin carbs that would foul from the stuff in weeks. The only safe way to use ethanol poisoned fuel is to keep it moving. Ethanol is not completely soluble in gasoline and is hygroscopic, so it separates and absorbs water. Pipelines cannot pump the swill and it use in aircraft piston engines that are otherwise approved for automotive fuel use, is extremely risky for obvious reasons.

Curse the names of the corrupt politicians that perpetrate this corporate corruption and fraud.

Whew, I feel better.

Re: Petrol with ethanol rust
dave jones #803794 04/02/20 10:38 pm
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Treated a tank with POR15 about 20 years ago. It's had e10 in it everyday since. No deterioration. Follow the directions to the letter.

Last edited by htown; 04/02/20 10:39 pm.

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Re: Petrol with ethanol rust
dave jones #803803 04/03/20 12:23 am
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Plus 1 for Caswell and POR15. Both bikes have had one or the other since I've owned them. +35 and +15 years. Had to do the 72 again after a crash. Let the tank soak in a radiator hot tank all week end. Had the tank repaired, then sealed, then painted. Following the instructions for the sealer is mandatory. Don't trust someone else to do it right.


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Re: Petrol with ethanol rust
dave jones #803936 04/04/20 5:23 am
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POR15 in the Bonnie, Hirsch in the A65, and some red colored ? stuff in the Trident. The red stuff will bleed dye if the alcohol content is too high. The Beemer has a stainless tank and will start just fine on old fuel.
I'm lucky to have a local station which sells nothing but no-alcohol fuel. It's a nice ride out to that place, sometimes I just ride out there to fill up and take the long way back home. laugh


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Re: Petrol with ethanol rust
dave jones #805678 04/17/20 12:49 pm
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I had to remove the tank to get all the fuel out as I didn't want to disturb the taps. One tap has the tube to make the other a reserve but the two sides of the tank over the frame top tube mean that it doesn't all get used (unless you lean the bike right over).

Anyway, there is a bit of light rust in the bottom but about the same as it has always been. I thought of swishing some Jenolite (phosphoric acid) around inside to pacify it. This a good idea?

Re: Petrol with ethanol rust
dave jones #805688 04/17/20 2:06 pm
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I’ve got some phosphoric acid sitting in my tank at the moment, it works really well, you need to leave it a period of time (agitated is best but I don’t have anything to do that) but check on it periodically, some items of mine have come out a bit blackened (they do clean up) others come out almost perfect. Fit some plugs into where the taps go before you start, mine are 1/4 BSP, I’m not sure if all triumphs are that or like BSA they used different sizes.


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Re: Petrol with ethanol rust
dave jones #805770 04/18/20 7:29 am
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Thanks, Allan. On the last bottle I had it said to put it over the rust and when it was gone to rinse with water. Then put some more in and swill it about, remove it and then not to rinse to protect it. Is that what you do or could the dried stuff do something to the petrol?

Dave

Re: Petrol with ethanol rust
dave jones #805772 04/18/20 8:37 am
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Mine was thrice used 45% phosphoric (then topped up to the cap with water so probably 40% when done)

I just left it in the tank for about 5 hours in total, the solution would benefit filtering as it’s gone cloudy and full of bits of paint etc. Stirred it occasionally and put the cap on and swilled it about as best I could. I haven’t rinsed it off though, I find as soon as you rinse it you get something that looks like flash rusting, although I think it’s more a stain as some parts that have done this I’ve washed with a scotch brite pad and it’s stayed clean afterwards. I’ll probably put it in again, but I will be lining the tank with POR-15 tank liner and that has an etch prep with it anyway.

I wouldn’t worry though about leaving it on the surface, it acts as a passivate to prevent further rusting. If any comes off with the fuel I doubt it would be enough to cause a problem.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: Petrol with ethanol rust
dave jones #805774 04/18/20 9:00 am
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Phosphoric acid works in 2 ways, first it eats the iron oxide ie the brown stuff and secondly then it treat the bare steel by converting the surface layer to iron phosphate. Iron phosphate unlike rust is similar in density to steel so acts as protection against rust forming as its not porous, same as aluminium oxide protects aluminium.

Re: Petrol with ethanol rust
dave jones #805836 04/18/20 7:03 pm
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For what it's worth, almost any acid will remove rust. Even the acid in a Coke will work. Don't make the mistake of using Ospho on a tank will old paint and filler and leaving it on under your new paint. It will definitely bubble your new paint. You have wash it off with something like Simple green and a scrub brush first. It can take days for it to dry and form the phosphate as stated above. I don't think it's gas soluble, though, so should be OK inside the tank.
I've used vinegar in tanks to remove rust. It works just fine. I swill with a little pool acid (hydrochloric acid) which finishes the job nicely. I always rinse with sodium bicarbonate after to neutralize.
I don't bother with tank liners unless there's potential for leaks and ruining my paint work. I ride my bikes year round and I think that makes the difference.
Two without and one with. The one with is one of those hand made tanks from India.

Cheers,
Bill

Last edited by HawaiianTiger; 04/18/20 7:03 pm.

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Re: Petrol with ethanol rust
dave jones #805917 04/19/20 8:25 am
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Thanks, Bill


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