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Podtronics Battery Eliminator - horn operation
#803181 03/28/20 6:05 pm
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I am considering options on improving the operation of the horn on my Triton, here is the electrical set up:

120W alternator
No battery
12v / 200W Podtronics battery Eliminator
LED lights (1.2A max current draw)
Denali SoundBomb Mini 12v horn (3.8A peak current draw)
Smiths electronic tachometer (<100mA current draw)
BT-H electronic magneto ignition, not dependant on electrical system

I am happy with the Podtronics set up and everything works as it should, lights work at idle etc. but, the horn only works when the engine speed is >3,000rpm and the current spike if the horn is activated below this results in power loss/reboot of the electronic tachometer.

As I see it, my options are:

1. Fit a lower current draw horn (if so what size/power spike can the system handle?).
2. Fit an additional capacitor in the horn circuit (if so what size?).
3. Both 1 & 2 above!

I'd appreciate any advice and information on what others are doing in this situation.

Thanks.


1946 Velocette MSS
1955 Triton
1959 Velocette Venom
1966 Triumph T120
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Re: Podtronics Battery Eliminator - horn operation
Bry #803188 03/28/20 6:51 pm
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A horn is a heavy draw but my B44 Victor with a capacitor the size of a can of beans the horn works at tick over with the battery disconnected, I will check the micro farads tomorrow. I got the cap off eBay for just a few £ even though its huge. The other option is to fit a DC buck to the tacho to keep its supply voltage stabilised at 12V, but that will only work if its rebooting due to lack of V and not Amps.

Re: Podtronics Battery Eliminator - horn operation
Bry #803237 03/29/20 2:43 am
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My only experience with running without a battery was using the big blue cap on a Trident with the stock RM21 alternator. The bike started and ran normally.
However, the dual horns would kill the thing at under 4K, and the flashers wouldn't operate at under 3K.
I suppose it's okay for competition, but I cannot recommend battery-less operation for a road bike just to save 6 or 7 pounds.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: Podtronics Battery Eliminator - horn operation
Bry #803264 03/29/20 1:40 pm
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2MC is 6,800 micro farads, the 2 types I use are 13,000 and 100,000 micro farads.

This is a DC buck, not used this one to know if its any good or not, ignition emf may be an issue.

https://www.eBay.co.uk/itm/DC-DC-Buck-Boost-Regulator-Converter-3V-15V-Automatic-Step-up-Step-down-Module/282372420636?hash=item41beb5341c:g:9gEAAOSw~AVYpm-4

Re: Podtronics Battery Eliminator - horn operation
Bry #803275 03/29/20 2:55 pm
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Would a battery not solve all the problems?


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Re: Podtronics Battery Eliminator - horn operation
Andy Higham #803276 03/29/20 3:02 pm
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Originally Posted by Andy Higham
Would a battery not solve all the problems?

That’s one thing that puzzles me about this so-called problem.

The other thing is who cares about the horn? If it doesn’t work don’t press it!


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Podtronics Battery Eliminator - horn operation
kommando #803308 03/29/20 6:58 pm
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Originally Posted by kommando
2MC is 6,800 micro farads, the 2 types I use are 13,000 and 100,000 micro farads.

This is a DC buck, not used this one to know if its any good or not, ignition emf may be an issue.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-DC-Buck-Boost-Regulator-Converter-3V-15V-Automatic-Step-up-Step-down-Module/282372420636?hash=item41beb5341c:g:9gEAAOSw~AVYpm-4

Thanks, is it the 13K uF or 100K uF you have on your B44 Victor?


1946 Velocette MSS
1955 Triton
1959 Velocette Venom
1966 Triumph T120
Re: Podtronics Battery Eliminator - horn operation
Bry #803312 03/29/20 7:42 pm
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100k but I also have a small alarm agm battery, the capacitor is for dud battery get me home purposes. I test it regularly by pulling fuse and doing a short run.

Re: Podtronics Battery Eliminator - horn operation
Bry #803349 03/29/20 11:07 pm
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Mount a squeeze-bulb horn on the handlebars.

Looks funny, but meets legal requirements (probably is LOUDER that original, too.)

Re: Podtronics Battery Eliminator - horn operation
Irish Swede #803357 03/30/20 12:07 am
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That is how BSA chose to deal with it on the 67 Victor Special... factory squeeze bulb horn. Even has a part number...

Re: Podtronics Battery Eliminator - horn operation
Bry #803390 03/30/20 6:41 am
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You could fit a 6v horn, or instead of the Podtronics battery eliminator, get the Boyer power box with lighting delay on it.

In that it puts power to your ignition always when the engine is turning, extra current then goes to auxiliary units. The 6v horn will be fine within a 12v circuit, as long as you don’t keep it pressed for all eternity, a normal peep peep will be fine and still last forever.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: Podtronics Battery Eliminator - horn operation
Bry #803399 03/30/20 9:44 am
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Re: Podtronics Battery Eliminator - horn operation
Bry #803497 03/31/20 4:47 am
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Probably takes up more space than a battery?


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: Podtronics Battery Eliminator - horn operation
DavidP #803514 03/31/20 11:08 am
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Originally Posted by DavidP
Probably takes up more space than a battery?

But very light and its the weight that's important.

I also fit a battery but an AGM 7AH so still a lower weight combined as a full lead acid and fits the space on a Victor easily.

Re: Podtronics Battery Eliminator - horn operation
DavidP #803535 03/31/20 2:54 pm
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Originally Posted by Andy Higham
Would a battery not solve all the problems?
It would, but that's not what I want to do. I am happy with the no battery set up and everything else works well so am considering other options to improve the horn situation.


Originally Posted by triton thrasher
Originally Posted by Andy Higham
Would a battery not solve all the problems?
...The other thing is who cares about the horn? If it doesn’t work don’t press it!

Fair point but I want things to work as best I can and for the bike to be road legal. From the MOT tester's manual (which I use as a reference on such things although I don't need an actual test) the engine must be running on a bike with no battery when testing a horn, it doesn't state at what rev's so I am assuming at idle!

Originally Posted by Irish Swede
Mount a squeeze-bulb horn on the handlebars.
Looks funny, but meets legal requirements (probably is LOUDER that original, too.)

You're right that would certainly keep me legal but I'm not at that stage yet.


Originally Posted by kommando
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[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
Thanks, I've been able to get some data sheets on similar caps from Farnell's website. From these and using a circuit simulator and cap sizing tool that I use for my other hobby to generate cap discharge curves it looks like - as suspected - the current draw of the SoundBomb horn is just too big an ask even with an additional cap fitted of reasonable size.

I'm going to make some more measurements of the system's capabilities and compare power supply demands of different horns including 6v as suggested by Allan G.

Originally Posted by DavidP
Probably takes up more space than a battery?
Maybe, but much easier to fit on a bike that was not built to accommodate a battery.


1946 Velocette MSS
1955 Triton
1959 Velocette Venom
1966 Triumph T120
Re: Podtronics Battery Eliminator - horn operation
Bry #803551 03/31/20 5:58 pm
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My 500 Triumph has standard alternator, led headlight, 5w rear, I have Boyer ignition, and a standard Boyer powerbox. Horn is just a little moped type thing, probably Chinese off eBay. Works just fine at tickover, just get a smaller hooter!



Re: Podtronics Battery Eliminator - horn operation
Bry #803628 04/01/20 4:33 am
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"I didn't see him." I didn't hear him."
Take your pick on your epitaph.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: Podtronics Battery Eliminator - horn operation
DavidP #803642 04/01/20 7:32 am
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Originally Posted by DavidP
"I didn't see him." I didn't hear him."
Take your pick on your epitaph.

“He thought his daytime headlight and loud horn could control other vehicles”


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Podtronics Battery Eliminator - horn operation
Bry #805144 04/13/20 9:48 am
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Hey Bry, how about you wire your horn into an independent circuit using one of these hidden in your headlamp bucket?

Li-ion batteries hold their charge very well when not in use so probably wouldn't need charging very often.

It would certainly get you through the MOT without having to explain the idiosyncrasies of your current horn set-up.


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Last edited by Vespa; 04/13/20 9:49 am.
Re: Podtronics Battery Eliminator - horn operation
Bry #805146 04/13/20 10:37 am
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The engine would “normally” be running anyway during an MOT. Least it should be.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: Podtronics Battery Eliminator - horn operation
Bry #805150 04/13/20 11:11 am
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And I would avoid the Lithium battery on the basis of fire hazard, especially inside a headlamp shell where its enclosed and not accessible.

Re: Podtronics Battery Eliminator - horn operation
kommando #805157 04/13/20 12:39 pm
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Originally Posted by kommando
And I would avoid the Lithium battery on the basis of fire hazard, especially inside a headlamp shell where its enclosed and not accessible.

OK fair point but you do realise everyone has a Li-ion battery in their phones and laptops? You can even get lawnmowers with them now. And there are other places you could put them besides the headlamp.

It was just an idea smile

Re: Podtronics Battery Eliminator - horn operation
Bry #805158 04/13/20 12:42 pm
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Yes I do, but where I have the choice I do not use, difficult if not impossible with a mobile but not a bike.

Re: Podtronics Battery Eliminator - horn operation
Bry #805233 04/13/20 9:20 pm
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I’ve had two batteries in phones go bad and almost to explosion. One was a sony Ericsson with easily removable battery, the other was an iPhone. The SE actually started leaking (it was sticky anyway), it was very hot! The other was just swollen.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: Podtronics Battery Eliminator - horn operation
Vespa #806489 04/24/20 9:22 am
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Originally Posted by Vespa
Hey Bry, how about you wire your horn into an independent circuit using one of these hidden in your headlamp bucket?

Li-ion batteries hold their charge very well when not in use so probably wouldn't need charging very often.

It would certainly get you through the MOT without having to explain the idiosyncrasies of your current horn set-up.


[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Thanks for the suggestion, using a lithium based battery was an option I considered when building the bike, the compact size and relatively low weight was certainly attractive. Due to the fire risk issue I was looking at the following lithium-ion Antigravity battery which seems to be well made and is designed for motorcycle use with a charging system. Although apparently not without risk, if some of the stories online are to be believed, so I decided against it as I had other options.

https://www.antigravitybatteries-uk.co.uk/small-case-type-batteries/antigravity-battery-ag401.html

I think I have found a solution using a capacitor that I temporarily connected and tested yesterday. I now need to make a suitable vibration isolating bracket for it and continue testing with it mounted on the bike.


1946 Velocette MSS
1955 Triton
1959 Velocette Venom
1966 Triumph T120
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