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15 mm crowfoot still the ticket for A65 Head Nuts
#802703 03/25/20 1:37 am
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Is a 15 mm crowfoot still the ticket for the outside head nuts on my 68 Spitfire? these are 3/8 BS 5/16 W, right at .600 diameter. The last posting on this I saw was years ago. Just checking, I am still learning my way around BSA engines.

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Re: 15 mm crowfoot still the ticket for A65 Head Nuts
linker48x #802712 03/25/20 2:24 am
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Or something like this (see the 15mm combo wrench with the socket welded to the side):
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
With the torque wrench extended out straight, I adjust the torque spec from 32 ft. lbs. to 28 ft. lbs. to compensate for the extra two inches of length. I don't remember now how to do the calculation.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: 15 mm crowfoot still the ticket for A65 Head Nuts
linker48x #802720 03/25/20 2:48 am
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32 ft lbs? I'm sort of baffled. My factory manual for a '66 A65 says 25 ft/lbs. for the bolts, 26 ft/lbs. for the nuts. But, this is an older manual by 2 years and things may have changed because the lengths of the valve springs are way, way off in the manual too, from what I actually have. My Haynes manual says the same thing, 25 and 26 ft/lbs. You must be right on 32, though, because my "Instruction manual" for the '68 year model Spitfire Mk 4 says "bolts to 28-30 lb/ft., and the nuts at 31-33 lb/ft." Just seems like a heck of a lot of torque for an aluminum head. And is the crows foot likely to hold up to that torque?

I thought about doing that, welding the top part of a socket to an end wrench. But I only had 2 English wrenches of the right size and I didn't think of using a 15 mm combination wrench. I found a Craftsman crows foot on eBay for like $700 shipping free so I will do that instead.

Also, does anyone have a spec for the valve spring lengths for the '68 year model?

Re: 15 mm crowfoot still the ticket for A65 Head Nuts
linker48x #802722 03/25/20 2:54 am
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If you set the crows foot to 90 degrees you keep the same torque values and don’t have to do smart people math. I welded a a cheap socket to a cheap 15mm wrench when torqued my head last time and did the 90 degree deal

Re: 15 mm crowfoot still the ticket for A65 Head Nuts
linker48x #802723 03/25/20 3:10 am
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All I've ever used on those outer nuts is a 15mm crow's foot adapter. I just dial the wrench down a pound or two to compensate for the extra length.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: 15 mm crowfoot still the ticket for A65 Head Nuts
linker48x #802733 03/25/20 6:23 am
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Litchfield did arange of sort of crows foot spannars for Holdens which were redesigned Cheveys so the same gear may be available over there
As much as I hate using evilbay links, this one came up litchfield crows foor spannar
troll around old tool sites they were made in a lot of different sizes and because you are working at fairly low tensions they can be ground down to fit.
I see them also listed for Vauxhalls so they must have been available in the UK as well.

Last edited by BSA_WM20; 03/25/20 6:24 am.

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Re: 15 mm crowfoot still the ticket for A65 Head Nuts
linker48x #802736 03/25/20 7:02 am
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As/where you can use a ring spanner, a thin walled ring spanner will get more rotation than a proper crows foot which will be wider at the jaws (to keep it strong) in the past I’ve always put a bolt,washerer,nut,washer,nut through the open ended side (tightened up of course) which has locked itself against the spanner and created a point to put a socket on.

The calculation for working out torque wrench extension can probably be found on the internet but it is also in the work shop manual.


beerchug

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Re: 15 mm crowfoot still the ticket for A65 Head Nuts
BSA_WM20 #802737 03/25/20 7:18 am
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Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
Litchfield did arange of sort of crows foot spannars for Holdens which were redesigned Cheveys so the same gear may be available over there
As much as I hate using evilbay links, this one came up litchfield crows foor spannar
troll around old tool sites they were made in a lot of different sizes and because you are working at fairly low tensions they can be ground down to fit.
I see them also listed for Vauxhalls so they must have been available in the UK as well.
I've only ever seen those in 11/16" AF, and unit twins have British Standard head sizes.
They work a treat for B50 cylinder head nuts, though.

Motion Pro makes an adjustable torque wrench adapter which clamps a ring spanner or open-end spanner.
Mine works quite well on A65 head nuts.

Re: 15 mm crowfoot still the ticket for A65 Head Nuts
linker48x #802772 03/25/20 6:45 pm
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what about torque settings? 25/26, or 30/33? 1968 A65.

Last edited by linker48x; 03/25/20 6:45 pm.
Re: 15 mm crowfoot still the ticket for A65 Head Nuts
linker48x #802779 03/25/20 8:22 pm
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Originally Posted by linker48x
what about torque settings? 25/26, or 30/33? 1968 A65.
According to the 1966-68 workshop manual (00-4123):

cylinder head bolts (3/8") 25 lb. ft.
cylinder head bolts (5/16") 25 lb. ft.
cylinder head nuts (3/8") 26 lb. ft.


It also lists valve spring free lengths:

1966-67
inner 1 5/8"
outer 2 1/32"

1968
inner 1 7/16"
outer 1 3/4"

There is a wealth of information in the manual, so it's well worth having.It's one of many on Kim the CD man's BSA CD

Re: 15 mm crowfoot still the ticket for A65 Head Nuts
linker48x #802783 03/25/20 8:43 pm
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Originally Posted by linker48x
32 ft lbs? I'm sort of baffled. My factory manual for a '66 A65 says 25 ft/lbs. for the bolts, 26 ft/lbs. for the nuts. But, this is an older manual by 2 years and things may have changed because the lengths of the valve springs are way, way off in the manual too, from what I actually have. My Haynes manual says the same thing, 25 and 26 ft/lbs. You must be right on 32, though, because my "Instruction manual" for the '68 year model Spitfire Mk 4 says "bolts to 28-30 lb/ft., and the nuts at 31-33 lb/ft." Just seems like a heck of a lot of torque for an aluminum head. And is the crows foot likely to hold up to that torque?

I thought about doing that, welding the top part of a socket to an end wrench. But I only had 2 English wrenches of the right size and I didn't think of using a 15 mm combination wrench. I found a Craftsman crows foot on eBay for like $700 shipping free so I will do that instead.

Also, does anyone have a spec for the valve spring lengths for the '68 year model?

My information is from Chilton's "Repair and Tune-up Guide for BSA Unit Singles, Twins, and Triples", published in 1972. I can only gauge the book's accuracy by noting that many of the pictures are lifted from factory documentation. I can say that, in other regards, it beats the tar out of Haynes and Clymer publications. For all A65s, the Chilton book specifies 31-33 ft. lbs. for all bolts and nuts.

The Chilton book also lists valve spring lengths, but I can't look because I've lent the book out to my son. However, a few years ago I bought a set of valve springs from EV Engineering. They came with a spec sheet, and they have worked beautifully in my A65. I don't know if EV's specs (and free length is not the only important spec) match the factory, but they really know their stuff. If I can find the sheet, I'll publish it.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: 15 mm crowfoot still the ticket for A65 Head Nuts
linker48x #802954 03/26/20 11:25 pm
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Thanks for your help, Mark Z, Shane in Oz, and others. I am asking the question re proper head torque with some puzzlement because as I mentioned above, I have conflicting information--my factory and Haynes manuals say 25 and 26 ft/lbs, and my "Instruction manual" for my '68 year model Spitfire Mk 4 says "bolts to 28-30 lb/ft., and the nuts at 31-33 lb/ft." which seems like too way much-- and these are somewhat different than your Chilton manual, Mark Z. I put it back together for the moment with 25 and 26, and it will be a while before the snow melts in Alaska and I can ride this, so I have time to figure it out.

On valves, valve springs and guides, does anyone have recommendations for good quality replacements? I always always use Kibblewhite stuff on my Triumphs, but they only make guides for BSAs, no valves or springs. BSA seems to be sort of an orphan in the aftermarket, since they are not as widely raced as Triumphs, and I am not sure where to go for good quality aftermarket valves and springs and guides.

Re: 15 mm crowfoot still the ticket for A65 Head Nuts
linker48x #802960 03/26/20 11:59 pm
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This is not the first time I've heard of discrepancies in head torque specs from one source to another. I'd have to say, apply good judgment, less is probably safer than more, and the most important thing is to follow the prescribed sequence and get them all even. One thing that does not make sense to me though, is applying more torque to the nuts than the bolts.

If you're looking to replace valve springs, again my recommendation is to call EV Engineering. I've only bought springs from them, but from what I've heard, they can also provide good quality valves and guides.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: 15 mm crowfoot still the ticket for A65 Head Nuts
linker48x #802962 03/27/20 12:06 am
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P+M (Kibblewhite) have made beezer valves for years, standard and oversize for A65's.
Same with guides. I seldom use anything else.

28 lbs is fine on head bolts and studs.

Re: 15 mm crowfoot still the ticket for A65 Head Nuts
linker48x #802980 03/27/20 3:04 am
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I'll have to admit I just use my calibrated arm on those nuts. Works fine so far.

Re: 15 mm crowfoot still the ticket for A65 Head Nuts
linker48x #802983 03/27/20 3:11 am
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I'm not admitting anything......................

Re: 15 mm crowfoot still the ticket for A65 Head Nuts
linker48x #802986 03/27/20 3:14 am
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Well, I got these really nice long box end wrenches.............

Re: 15 mm crowfoot still the ticket for A65 Head Nuts
linker48x #803010 03/27/20 8:10 am
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Regarding the different head bot torque, the early barrels had 5/16 rear (behind pushrod tunnel) bolts, everything else was 3/8, god knows why and it seems crackers to me. Those 5/16” bolts were 22ft/lb (from memory). I would think that the other bolts were kept to a lower torque for that reason and probably to stop the head distorting..... I think...


By 67/68 the head bolts were all 3/8 at that point all the bolts were the higher torque spec.

30ft/lb isn’t a lot, and adequate for that size and grade of bolt going into a cast iron barrel.

I’ve attached a link to the Jag-lovers website, they list a full array of bolt sizes, bolt grades and maximum torque specs. They list BSF and BSW but not CEI (BSCy) sadly.


beerchug

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Re: 15 mm crowfoot still the ticket for A65 Head Nuts
NickL #803207 03/28/20 9:32 pm
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Originally Posted by NickL
P+M (Kibblewhite) have made beezer valves for years, standard and oversize for A65's.
Same with guides. I seldom use anything else.

28 lbs is fine on head bolts and studs.

NickL, the Kibblewhite catalog only has guides in it these days. There may be leftover Kibblewhite stock out there on a dealer shelf somewhere, I was kind of hoping someone might have a lead on some. For instance, MAP lists oversize Black Diamond valves, but I would prefer stock size. Ideallly, I would like to get a set of valves, springs, and guides (intakes with seals).

LOL, I still use my carefully calibrated elbow on an end wrench too, it clicks just at the right torque. But today I got my $7 fix from eBay, a 15mm Craftsman crowfoot.

Thanks, all, for your suggestions, and if anyone knows, I would still like to know where to go for Kibblewhite valves and springs.

Last edited by linker48x; 03/28/20 9:32 pm.
Re: 15 mm crowfoot still the ticket for A65 Head Nuts
linker48x #803240 03/29/20 5:39 am
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My arm is only calibrated for the cylinder base nuts.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"

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