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1967 Bonneville Boyer Ignition Timing
#801506 03/16/20 1:08 am
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Hey Guys
Another couple of questions for my Bonneville project

I thought you might like a morning coffee question … I am close to firing up the ’67 Bonneville project and have a question on timing.

I am trying to get static timing good enough that I can fire up the bike and then use a timing light to set at 38 degree advance.

I have set the engine to TDC on the right hand cylinder and then “inched the kickstart to get the timing pointer on my damaged ’69 “timing primary cover” so that the pointer is at the mark on the end of the rotor.

The end of the rotor has two raised "bosses" with a slot in the middle of them. My challenge is this … I don’t know if this mark is 38 degree or TDC mark?

I just don’t want to start the bike with too much advance and blue the new exhaust pipes!

I have set the Boyer “rotor” plate so that the magnetic pick up “white dot” is in the middle of the timing “hole”, so I think I am OK.
Regards
John

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Re: 1967 Bonneville Boyer Ignition Timing
Waterloo John #801508 03/16/20 1:15 am
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Late timing will give you higher exhaust temp than early timing.

Re: 1967 Bonneville Boyer Ignition Timing
Waterloo John #801516 03/16/20 1:48 am
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...the mark on the rotor is 38º. You do not have a Mark for TDC you need to do it.

Re: 1967 Bonneville Boyer Ignition Timing
Waterloo John #801519 03/16/20 3:51 am
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HI John, The mark on rotor is 38B. For setting Boyer you won't need TDC mark, just the 38b.

It is correct set pointer on 38b mark. No matter which one. Then rotate the stator plate until you see white dot in hole. Sounds like you did that.

If... you run out of slot stator plate, then you must release the rotor from its taper & rotate it on exhaust cam in direction you need more slot. You may still run into this when you are strobe timing.

However, it sounds like you've done everything correctly so far. Be sure to put fan in front of motor during strobe timing check/adjustment. Without cooling air the motor can overheat very rapidly.

Pay attention to specified rpm in instructions. No tach, watch mark on rotor advance with RPM. It will stabilize at a point. That is your rpm. Instructions are odd. They say in one place 4000, in another 2500 cam rpm, which is 5000.

Good you have a used cover with pointer. Makes it much easier. The old busted, dented covers are becoming very useful to owners of early machines fitting these.

Let us know how it goes.

In California our best fuel is 91 unleaded with 10% ethanol. I find setting timing 36B is a little better in our hot weather. That is about 3/64 different. With a '69 version primary cover, that will leave mark on rotor 3/64" behind, meaning closer to rear wheel from pointer.

In this case I make a scratch mark at the 36B position on rotor. Fill scratch with some red paint so it's easy to see. 93 fuel seems ok with 38b according to what others have reported.

I hope to actually start my degree wheel project this week. Corona virus has us oldsters staying home these days.

Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: 1967 Bonneville Boyer Ignition Timing
Waterloo John #801578 03/16/20 2:57 pm
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Don
Very good advice and you have understood my present situation perfectly. I too have a degree wheel. When mounting this to the rotor, does the rotor nut have Left hand threads?

Re: 1967 Bonneville Boyer Ignition Timing
Waterloo John #801580 03/16/20 3:01 pm
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Rotor nut is normal right hand.

Re: 1967 Bonneville Boyer Ignition Timing
Waterloo John #801620 03/16/20 7:53 pm
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Hi John, As commando stated both the alternator nut & the bolt for Boyer rotor are normal right hand threads.

Since you have the '69 cover with pointer there is no real reason to use degree wheel. I've found checking many later bikes the pointer & rotor tend to be within 1 degree of perfect when putting TDC tool into 38B slot in flywheel.

I don't recall if your bike has 38B slot or not. If yes I'd recommend comparing that to your rotor/pointer.

If you want to use degree wheel use piston stop screwed into spark plug hole to zero wheel. The only bike I verified crank slot DTC on was '69 Bonnie. That was spot on.

The alternator rotor can slip on its hub. That's why I use TDC tool to verify rotor mark/pointer line up at 38B. So far I've never seen a loose or slipped rotor. So far... It's not that uncommon.

In most cases owners just set the white dot centered in timing hole bottom one closest to slot. CW direction on instruction sheet, with slots centered in pillar bolts. Upper pillar bolt in rear hole. Lower pillar bolt in front hole. Then start bike & strobe time. They have no idea about rotor slip or anything. It starts & runs good, they ride it. Your choice on how to proceed.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: 1967 Bonneville Boyer Ignition Timing
Waterloo John #801907 03/19/20 7:22 am
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Hi John, With Corona virus, I've had time to fool around with my bike & timing with degree wheel on cam shaft.

I spent a few days in shop making 1/4-28 adaptor stem to fit my Wassell degree wheel that is made to use on cam. (my factory made spindle is CEI thread).

So got that mounted on cam & that went well.

However I find using wire such as coat hanger is too wobbly & vibrates & hard to read with motor running. Motor off, static timing with points wire is fine, but not using strobe light.

This morning I made an aluminum plate that bolts to pillar bolts. Extends up to above degree wheel & has short wire pointer for degree wheel. Attaches to both pillar bolts & center of plate is cut out to access points/adjusters. This worked very well.

I could not find my old piston stop. As I recall it had 1/4" stem to stop piston. So I made one with 3/8 bolt like we used at Harley Davidson. As I recall I used 3/8 diam. stop on old 650s. But... maybe it was the 1/4" one. No matter this did not work.

Spark plug with insides cut out, threaded for 3/8" bolt turns out the intake valve hits the 3/8 bolt. Oddly you can turn motor past it as it hit lightly. I could feel motor drag, but not stop. Hope I didn't bend valve...

Normally, when piston hits stop, it's unmistakable. It just stops hard & instantly. No question. I don't recall having valve contact using piston stop before. However, I've never used the stop on T140 motor with 8.6 pistons, which have a low dome compared to 650... Plus I have .080" head gasket raising head .030" over standard. Motor started & idled after so I think I'm ok. I didn't force anything. Valves are pretty stiff, but yikes! What about bending push rod?? I don't think I did. Motor didn't tick after starting like a loose valve clearance, which is sure sign of bent valve or push rod.

I may or may not make another piston stop tomorrow. I doubt it, but we'll see. I will make one though.

So I used my TDC tool to locate crank & set degree wheel from there. This worked very good & easy as expected.

A quick note the degree wheel is plastic. It holds to mounting spindle fairly well. Very well for static timing. However you need to be sure it's very secure or it wants to slip on spindle. A quick check is to make witness mark on wheel, spindle and/or recheck zero with TDC tool.

Of course I put fan in front of motor to cool it & keep plastic degree wheel cool as it's close to header pipe.

Finally, I started motor let warm briefly. Timing light showed perfectly, just the same as it does on alternator rotor. Timing advanced as expected & was 36B at 2000+ rpm. I use 36B instead of 38B to reduce ping. (Boyer has different advance curve which is much better).

So if... you can locate TDC or 38B & set cam mounted degree wheel to it depending on your flywheel notches, it indeed works well to use cam mounted degree wheel to strobe time motor.

PM me your Email & I can send photos of what I have if you are interested.

Truth be told, a used primary cover off eBay with timing pointer is good way to go. You could use a later T140 one also with the screw in plug. Just put a stopper of some sort in gear shift hole. Even silver tape would probably work. Dents or cracks no problem for just setting timing. Epoxy cracks as/if needed.

Following timing on Boyers now, I find indeed once set, the timing stays spot on for many thousands of miles so long as parts in timing cover are not disturbed. So fitting of junker cover to set timing is only needed once for the most part. Certainly worth the cost of a junker cover.

Quick question. Can you remove your primary cover with exhaust pipe & muffler on? I found on the '69 Bonnie if you use Allan head bolts along bottom & remove with a cut down Allen wrench cover will slide out & up enough to not remove exhaust, which is a pain with crossover pipe etc. I don't know on earlier.

Our county says no pleasure riding of motorcycles, but you can play golf or go out walking. This shelter in home is getting old fast. Order lasts until April 7.

So catching up on a few projects.
Don

Last edited by TR7RVMan; 03/19/20 7:29 am. Reason: changed sentence

1973 Tiger 750
Re: 1967 Bonneville Boyer Ignition Timing
Waterloo John #801911 03/19/20 9:02 am
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On bikes without timing provisions I remove the timing cover and paint or cut a mark on the stator. Should you have a rotor without a timing mark, simply make a punch mark. Strobing is much easier than with a floppy degree disc. Don't worry about running the primary dry for a short while. Not a great method on later bikes which breathes through the primary case, but they have primary covers with apertures anyway.
If you have the flywheel timing plunger it's easy to set the ignition mark, if not you need to use a degree disc OR, you can use a stick in the plug hole and place the piston 3/8" BTDC. This is in fact a fairly accurate method if you're careful, and I use it often. TDC isn't hard to find on the stick, much harder on a degree wheel.
I'm a great believer in keeping things simple. Or to be honest, I can't handle anything complicated, being a simple man.

"Our county says no pleasure riding of motorcycles, but you can play golf or go out walking. This shelter in home is getting old fast. Order lasts until April 7."

Images of Covid-19 being spread from a motorcyclist like pesticides from a dust cropper laughing confused crop duster comes to mind... But seriously?
Our authorities are normally behind the 8 ball on most things, but now motorcycling is in fact encouraged, full protective gear and plenty of distance from everyone else!

SR

Last edited by Stein Roger; 03/19/20 10:38 pm. Reason: what's dust cropper?
Re: 1967 Bonneville Boyer Ignition Timing
Waterloo John #801952 03/19/20 6:42 pm
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No pleasure riding of motorcycles? How silly is that?
I've got a couple of suggestions. Put some rocks in your pants to make un-pleasurable and go for a pleasure ride. Or, just strap a briefcase to the back of your bike and go for it. No one will bother you.
Fact jack. Sunlight is death on viruses. It's the UV.....one of the reasons there are less of them in summer.

Cheers,
Bill

PS I just noticed the like button.....how long has that been there? Not long?
B.

Last edited by HawaiianTiger; 03/19/20 6:44 pm.

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Re: 1967 Bonneville Boyer Ignition Timing
Waterloo John #802014 03/20/20 6:13 am
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Hi Stein, I have dip stick also. I've used it some long ago & also on my '64 cub.

Experimenting with dip stick to find TDC I find it's only accurate to about 2deg. Back in the day, with high octane leaded fuel 2 deg off was of little to no consequence. Now with our 91 octane 2 deg makes a noticeable difference in reducing ping hot. Not huge, but worth the while of being more accurate.

So after a fitful nights sleep thinking about my piston stop, I went to shop (garage) & ground the 3/8" dia. stop to 1/4". Very carefully examined intake valve position with valve cover off & verified 1/4" dia. gave good safe clearance. (Exhaust valve being smaller had no clearance issues).

On an aside I tested intake valve clearance both sides. Left side was .008". Right side that valve contacted stop tool I could force a .009" in, so I'll call it .0085". So it's possible valve took slight damage or I didn't do perfect adjustment last time, about 2k miles or so ago. Anyway bike starts & ran fine on road test idle rpm no change. Real test is with cylinder leak down tester. I don't own one, always used the shop's. It's on my to buy list.

Anyway with the 1/4" stem the stop tool worked good as expected. However the degree wheel did not have enough range printed on wheel to center to TDC properly. My full circle degree wheel worked fine, but it's larger & much heavier alloy. I don't think it safe to spin up to 3000 rpm as the spindle always has some run out. The flimsy plastic Wassell wheel is quite light & spins up nicely so is better.

I feel if you have CEI thread spindle, your motor has TDC or 38B locating slot, the plastic degree wheel works very well. Put the Boyer rotor on & line up dot. Tighten rotor. Remove rotor bolt. Install spindle. Set motor with TDC tool to TDC, or 38B. Install degree wheel & pointer. Set wheel to match flywheel slot. DTC or 38B. Start motor & strobe. No need to touch primary at all. $26 US free shipping. The slots in degree wheel make it easy to reach into points cavity & adjust pick up plate or set points timing.

Boyer rotor is shorter than AAU. Stack flat washers or make spacer so spindle will tighten on rotor.

Once you get hang of using piston stop setting degree wheel to TDC it's very accurate, spot on & only takes a few minutes.

All a matter of preference. For the average owner, getting a later cover is a good plan. Junker covers can be had on eBay right now for under $50 US with shipping. Swap meets half that.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: 1967 Bonneville Boyer Ignition Timing
Waterloo John #802519 03/23/20 9:39 pm
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Hi John, Here's a link to set I made for strobe timing. RAT site is easy to post photos.
Don

https://www.triumphrat.net/threads/strobe-timing-with-degree-wheel-on-cam.968752/


1973 Tiger 750
Re: 1967 Bonneville Boyer Ignition Timing
Waterloo John #802552 03/24/20 12:57 am
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Originally Posted by Waterloo John
Hey Guys
I have set the engine to TDC on the right hand cylinder and then “inched the kickstart to get the timing pointer on my damaged ’69 “timing primary cover” so that the pointer is at the mark on the end of the rotor. Regards
John

If I'm reading this right.....you can't "inch the kickstart", the mark is BTDC, you need to turn the motor back from TDC, so in gear and rock the rear wheel backwards.


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