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Now to adjust the clutch
#799455 02/27/20 2:57 am
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Richrd Offline OP
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I had the clutch working correctly, but pulled the outter primary to fix an oil leak, (before the bike even starts?) Anyway now I can't get it to disengage. I went by the t150 manual.

Are there any tricks? And should I consider any of the modifications and if so which one.

hopefully I'll get out to seat the rings this weekend.

thanks


Rich (last remaining member ThreeMustGetBeers)
"It's not always about going fast. Sometimes it's nice to slow down" (Wendy E.2016)

69 bonney
72 commando
75 commando
couple of beesas a ducati
and a Honda?
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Re: Now to adjust the clutch
Richrd #799514 02/28/20 12:18 am
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The method in this article is much simpler than the one in the WSM.
http://www.britcycle.com/manuals/Tripleclutch.pdf
In practice you will never get the 5 thou clearance specified in the manual. I usually end up with about 3 thou. It's also important to check again once the engine is up to temperature to be sure that you still have clearance at the adjuster.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: Now to adjust the clutch
Richrd #799544 02/28/20 9:22 am
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I don't use any clearance at all, I actually pre-load the bearing. In fact, most will pre load the bearing inadvertently as they take up the slack in the cable to make the the clutch work at all!
Loading the bearing is a good thing! If you look up the specifications on the bearings (I use the angular contact bearing 7203-2RS) they recommend a certain pre-load. I use a special three-part clutch nut with a Belleville washer/spring which gives a pre determined pre-load. I bought it from a fellow tripler in England, goes by gk24sailor on eBay.
It's been in use for 12000 km and all is well.
If you don't want to buy this kit, simply adjust the clearance to zero and go from there. By the time you get your clutch to free, the bearing will be pre-loaded some.
Do you know of ANY bearing an a motorcycle that spins around unloaded? Why should the clutch bearing be different?
No load leads to flutter, vibrations, skidding and premature wear.

SR

Last edited by Stein Roger; 02/28/20 9:28 am. Reason: Bearing number.
Re: Now to adjust the clutch
Richrd #799546 02/28/20 12:45 pm
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I got the clutch working but its heavy and just doesn't feel right.


Rich (last remaining member ThreeMustGetBeers)
"It's not always about going fast. Sometimes it's nice to slow down" (Wendy E.2016)

69 bonney
72 commando
75 commando
couple of beesas a ducati
and a Honda?
Re: Now to adjust the clutch
Richrd #799554 02/28/20 3:56 pm
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This kit replaces the roller bearing with a thrust bearing on the lifter mechanism which will allow you to run with very little clearance. If the nut spins at all you are good to go. I was a little leery about buying from this vendor but have bought this kit and his oil pressure gauge kit and got a good product and quick service. By the way IMHO an oil pressure gauge on a triple is a necessity.
http://www.triplesunlimited.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=55
http://www.triplesunlimited.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=70_60_65&product_id=74


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2018 Kawasaki Z900RS


Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: Now to adjust the clutch
Richrd #799568 02/28/20 7:33 pm
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"Allow you to run with very little clearance."

OK so it's hard to accept what I say about the importance of preloading a bearing, I get that. But here's what SKF says:

In applications where the bearing size is determined by factors other than load – for example, shaft diameter constrained by critical speed – the bearing may be lightly loaded in relation to its size and carrying capacity. Where there are very light loads, failure mechanisms other than fatigue, such as skidding and smearing of raceways or cage damage, often prevail. To provide satisfactory operation, rolling bearings must always be subjected to a given minimum load. As a general rule, minimum loads of 0,01 C should be imposed on ball bearings and 0,02 C on roller bearings. More accurate minimum load requirements are given in the product sections.

The importance of applying a minimum load is greater in applications where there are rapid accelerations or rapid starts and stops, and where speeds exceed 50% of the limiting speeds listed in the data tables (Speed limitations). If minimum load requirements cannot be met, potential improvements are:

Use a bearing with a smaller dimension series.
Consider special lubrication or running-in procedures.
Consider NoWear coated bearings.
Consider applying a preload.

Here's the link: https://www.skf.com/group/products/...cess/bearing-size/requisite-minimum-load

Nobody knows why Hele and company didn't pick up on this, I guess that decades of adjusting multiplate clutches with clearances so they wouldn't slip just couldn't be ignored.
Please note what SKF says about rapid starts and stops, which is what you get when the release bearing spins with the clutch and then decelerates when the pull rod is activated. (the pull rod doesn't spin, it sits still)
If preloaded it spins all the time with no abrupt starts and stops, and lasts forever, just like the other bearings in the engine and gearbox.
But then, to get a triple clutch to work it will already be preloaded by your cable adjustment. My point is that any clearance is neither required nor desirable.
By controlling the preload with the Belleville washer trick you avoid loading the bearing so much that you induce clutch slip.

SR

Re: Now to adjust the clutch
Richrd #799574 02/28/20 8:43 pm
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You convinced me, I just ordered the thrust bearing kit. I already have their OP gauge.

Richrd, For some reason the clutch on my '74 was always hard to pull. My current '72 is much better. Maybe it's a different cable, maybe it's just that I never took the time to balance and fine tune the clutch before. In any case, the triple clutch will always feel and act differently from the multi-plate clutch used on the twins.
As I remember you bought this bike in pieces. Was the clutch still assembled? If not, did you notice any location marks on the housing and pressure plate? These units were balanced from the factory and must be assembled with those in the same relative orientation.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: Now to adjust the clutch
Richrd #799582 02/28/20 9:40 pm
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SR
The clutch pull rod on triples has been known to snap (mine did right after I got mine 45 years ago!) and I have seen pull rods drill neat little holes in the adjustment cover. The reason given by those who profess to know, is that the bearing is not designed to be pre-loaded and doing so will eventually result in a failure. I am not an expert and do not profess to know. The last time I was in my clutch, I used a newer style bearing that is supposed to take some pre-load. I think I bought it off Phil Pick. In any event, after that initial failure many years ago, on both the original style bearings and the new one, rather than seeking the factory .005" clearance, I adjust so that I can just turn the large nut with my fingers. Since the nut is not totally free, that is undoubtedly a certain amount of pre-load, but I suspect very little. I also did the "Big D" modification years ago. Between the adjustment and the modification, my clutch works fine and is not at all difficult to pull.

Ed from NJ

Re: Now to adjust the clutch
Richrd #799583 02/28/20 10:00 pm
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Richrd Offline OP
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Dave, yes we went into the clutch but I don't remember why. But yes we took note of punch marks.


Rich (last remaining member ThreeMustGetBeers)
"It's not always about going fast. Sometimes it's nice to slow down" (Wendy E.2016)

69 bonney
72 commando
75 commando
couple of beesas a ducati
and a Honda?
Re: Now to adjust the clutch
Richrd #799615 02/29/20 6:42 am
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Easiest way to tell where the problem might be is to put the lever on a spare set of bars and straighten the cable completely then work the clutch. If the stiffness is the same as with the lever mounted on the bike's bars then the problem is in the engine. Then bend the cable and check again. Decrease the bend radius until it matches what is on the bike. Increasing stiffness then the cable and possibly the lever. No change then the lever.

Re: Now to adjust the clutch
Richrd #799679 03/01/20 2:36 am
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Rode the bike today! Sounded good and pulled hard. But damn its heavy!

So, the clutch sucks. I ordered one one those kits.

I have a bit of popping on decel, but that should tune out.

A few oil leaks,

And the front suspension is too heavy..

So thanks everyone for the help.


Rich (last remaining member ThreeMustGetBeers)
"It's not always about going fast. Sometimes it's nice to slow down" (Wendy E.2016)

69 bonney
72 commando
75 commando
couple of beesas a ducati
and a Honda?
Re: Now to adjust the clutch
Richrd #799691 03/01/20 5:14 am
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Likely a bit late but if your still keen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elM3h2RGbGQ&t=17s

Re: Now to adjust the clutch
Richrd #799713 03/01/20 12:51 pm
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thanks Geoff, I am aware of his videos and watched them many times during this build.


Rich (last remaining member ThreeMustGetBeers)
"It's not always about going fast. Sometimes it's nice to slow down" (Wendy E.2016)

69 bonney
72 commando
75 commando
couple of beesas a ducati
and a Honda?
Re: Now to adjust the clutch
Richrd #799730 03/01/20 6:11 pm
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Popping on decel may be a bit lean on idle. Try the mixture screws in a 1/4 to a 1/2 turn. You can also replace the clutch lever with one that has more distance between the pivot bolt and the hole the cable eye fits in. A small difference can make quite a bit of difference in leverage allowing more pull on the cable. I'm heading out to the garage after while and will measure the difference. They do feel heavier than a twin. More of a highway cruiser. Bit sluggish on the bottom end but start to pull hard from 4K up to redline and sound fantastic.


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2018 Kawasaki Z900RS


Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: Now to adjust the clutch
htown #799737 03/01/20 7:37 pm
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The standard lever measures 7/8 and the updated one measures 1 1/8th pivot to eyes. Doesn't sound like much but when you are measuring clutch lift in thousands of an inch it can make the difference between a bike that shifts smoothly and one that doesn't.


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2018 Kawasaki Z900RS


Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: Now to adjust the clutch
htown #800983 03/13/20 3:54 am
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Originally Posted by htown
The standard lever measures 7/8 and the updated one measures 1 1/8th pivot to eyes.
You got a part number for the 'updated' lever? Is this for separate lever or for post '71 switch housing? Mine all measure 1" from hole to hole.

BTW: I installed the actuator bearing conversion from Triples Unlimited yesterday. Not too difficult, and I measured a bit more lift at the actuator. Haven't had the chance to ride it yet. I did start it today on the center stand and went through the gears. Easy to select neutral now.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: Now to adjust the clutch
Richrd #800998 03/13/20 6:56 am
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I am not sure where the "standard lever" measures 7/8" comes from. My original '71 levers are 1" from eye to pivot.

Re: Now to adjust the clutch
Richrd #801147 03/14/20 12:46 am
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I rode about 20 miles today. No dramatic difference with the actuator bearing, but a modest improvement. I have enough clutch lift to find neutral and no creep if sitting in gear at a stop sign.

I think that htown is referring to the pre-71 levers, which are available in different spacing between holes.
I currently use a clutch lever made for CB750, 1 1/16" spacing. It's one of those dogleg levers, so it doesn't match the brake lever. I'll be searching swap meets for a similar lever with a normal contour. I must have it in hand in order to measure.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: Now to adjust the clutch
Richrd #801455 03/15/20 8:42 pm
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I bought the lever from Raber's and it was sold specifically to get a little more lift on the Trident. No part number as I recall. I know Raber's are now out of the parts business but still have their shop. You might contact Bob to find out. The oem lever that came from my 74 measures 7/8, I just rechecked it. My understanding is that some of the earlier bikes used something else. You might check with Stuart over on the Triumph Rat net vintage forum. As I recall he had quite a lengthy dissertation on the different clutch levers.


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2018 Kawasaki Z900RS


Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: Now to adjust the clutch
Richrd #801505 03/16/20 12:52 am
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I've never actually ever used the 0.005" method. I slacken the cable at the handlebar just enough so that there is say 1/8" pre movement of the lever before any movement of the clutch at all.

Then with the bike on the centrestand and the bike in gear I adjust the clutch so that the clutch will engage and disengage when rocking the back wheel and the lever is used. Tighten everything up then adjust the cable at the handle bar and/or cases so that there is just the barest movement at the lever. I then recheck the engage/disengage by rocking the back wheel. Lastly I check that the adjuster nut will spin freely. Then its done.
Over 130,000km like that and nil issues. I do have a NH self centring pullrod installed, and a slightly heavier spring for my 1000cc kit but that's all - no other mods. The bearing has been renewed once when I did a rebuild [but there was no issue with the old one, it was just old], and even with the heavier spring fitted, my clutch action is not what I would call heavy. BTW I use cables that are approx. 3" longer than needed and allow the cable to loop. I don't tie it down anywhere, it has a half done up cable tie on it under the tank just to stop it flapping around or coming loose, it can also foul the gantry on the carbie bank if not routed correctly, an easy fix.

Re: Now to adjust the clutch
Richrd #801518 03/16/20 3:09 am
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When testing the adjustment using the kicker I noticed that if the adjustment was tight the pull rod and nut would spin until disengagement. I slackened the adjustment until just past where the spinning stopped. Clutch works well and I still have clearance with a warm engine. laugh


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"

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