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The new Norton goes into administration #796955 01/29/20 11:30 pm
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Rohan Offline OP
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BBC
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51303905

Doesn't sound a huge debt, they'll be back ?

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Re: The new Norton goes into administration [Re: Rohan] #796960 01/30/20 12:37 am
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It is only a huge debt if you don't have it!

Re: The new Norton goes into administration [Re: Rohan] #796964 01/30/20 12:53 am
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True.
But with that workforce, thats only a few weeks pay.
So they must be skating along on very thin ice.

Q. How do you make a small fortune making motorcycles ?
A. Invest a large fortune in it....

Re: The new Norton goes into administration [Re: Rohan] #797010 01/30/20 4:17 pm
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Didn't India based Mahindra buy the BSA rights awhile back ?
Maybe they'll be eyeing up the Norton marque now...


Will work for Guinness smile
Re: The new Norton goes into administration [Re: Rohan] #797040 01/30/20 9:26 pm
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They'll be waiting for proceedings to reach rock bottom before putting in an offer... ?
Such is the way of the corporate raider.

Someone (corporation) not so distant from here bought a decommissioned power station for $1.
Put it back into operation, and the $$$ rolled in.
Not quite the same line of business, however !!

(And there was always that niggling feeling that maybe the boilers had reached their end-of-life, ?)
but we digress...

Re: The new Norton goes into administration [Re: Rohan] #797054 01/30/20 11:49 pm
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Originally Posted by Rohan
They'll be waiting for proceedings to reach rock bottom before putting in an offer... ?
Such is the way of the corporate raider.

Someone (corporation) not so distant from here bought a decommissioned power station for $1.
Put it back into operation, and the $$$ rolled in.
Not quite the same line of business, however !!

(And there was always that niggling feeling that maybe the boilers had reached their end-of-life, ?)
but we digress...


Boilers of that type have to be tested and certified so that you know how much life is left.... Plenty of other things to go wrong with a power plant though!

Lannis


Do dogs see police dogs and think "Oh no it's the cops!"?
Re: The new Norton goes into administration [Re: Rohan] #797057 01/30/20 11:55 pm
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I was never that impressed with Norton as a business though. Just making ultra-high spec stuff is what lots of customizers do on a smaller scale. What John Bloor did with Triumph was to build a thoroughly modern business that made money selling bikes that people wanted to buy to ride. They stood comparison with the Japanese, German and Italian marques on a dollar-for-dollar basis.

I'm not knocking modern Norton, or those who bought its products, but it never seemed to me to be a business in any proper sense.

Re: The new Norton goes into administration [Re: Rohan] #797482 02/04/20 1:12 am
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The mire is getting deeper and deeper....

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...cles-collapsed-amid-acrimony-and-scandal

Sadly too, test reports of the new 650 models are just appearing in the press, including even pricing.
So things must be well advanced if they have that already.
Difficult to see how they will eventuate, unless an injection of $$/££/roubles/lira/yen appears on the horizon.

How much $$ TARP $$ funds $$ bailed $$ out the US auto industry ??

Re: The new Norton goes into administration [Re: Rohan] #797504 02/04/20 8:35 am
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I won't say too much, as it's not my place to do so, but I can say I know people who sold these bikes and people who bought them. Both parties were shafted. The products were seriously flawed, and had to be overhauled before they would even run. When they did run, they were slow and sounded like war in a tin factory. Not a good situation for any of the involved, and Mr. Garner didn't want to know.

At least they looked great, while the 650 models look like they've been made from parts that doesn't want to go together. If you pay £22.000,- for one up front, without even seeing the bike you:
1) have more money than sense.
2) have a very peculiar taste.
3) are extremely gullible.

The Norton name has been dragged through the mud more than most. I believe Mr.Garner's initial intentions were the best, but unlike Mr.Bloor who kept his plans under wraps while he developed a viable product, Garner did the opposite, lots of blowing his horn with IOM racing efforts and boasting about building world beaters and that sort of thing.
Building costly bikes for the rich was never going to be a viable business plan. Brough Superior, HRD-Vincent, Bimota etc, the list is much longer, but neither lived for long.
True, there are caricature Broughs being made today, but I feel safe in predicting their demise in the near future. Faberge eggs on wheels, who needs them?

SR

Re: The new Norton goes into administration [Re: Rohan] #797505 02/04/20 8:44 am
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Norton were buying counterfeit Bosch sensors and wondering why bikes never made 100 miles before coming back in for warranty work.

Re: The new Norton goes into administration [Re: Rohan] #797525 02/04/20 5:16 pm
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Where will I get parts for my NRS588 now?
At least Kenny Dreer actually built bikes and sold them.

Re: The new Norton goes into administration [Re: DMadigan] #797529 02/04/20 6:12 pm
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Originally Posted by DMadigan
Where will I get parts for my NRS588 now?


Different 'Norton' company.

This is http://www.nortonmotorcycles.com/


Originally Posted by DMadigan
At least Kenny Dreer actually built bikes and sold them.


I expect Norton Motorcycles sold more over the last 9 years.

Re: The new Norton goes into administration [Re: Rohan] #798263 02/13/20 9:57 pm
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The murk is getting murkier ?!!

https://www.rideapart.com/articles/398369/norton-motorcycles-government-funds-stripped-bikes/

That car fleet is small beer ?
Heck the warehouse we took over at some stage apparently had Lambos in abundance for whatever they were doing.
Or so the neighbours told us...

The moral for SG is you can't do motorcycle manufacturing on a shoestring ?

Re: The new Norton goes into administration [Re: Rohan] #798282 02/14/20 8:35 am
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It's was not a shoestring, SG got access to large amounts of funds by dodgy methods and then wasted it,. The fleet of cars in the Car park cost £800,000, that should have been used as working capital as should the £350,000 loan to another of his companies but conveniently written off. In reality it was run as a ponzi scheme with SG as the only recipient.

Re: The new Norton goes into administration [Re: Rohan] #798321 02/14/20 8:20 pm
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Yes, but there have been stories around for ages about contractors and suppliers not getting paid, sometimes for ages.
So cash flow has apparently been a problem here and there, almost from the beginning.
And Mr Garner sold off various of his companies just to get Nortons resurrection started, so it hasn't entirely been
a pot of gold to line his pockets - that I have seen in print yet anyway ?
It sounds like it has been a real juggling act to meet payroll and pay suppliers and keep the lights on and product flowing and pay the tax man ??

Maintaining the illusion of prosperity may have been all part of conjuring trick to getting Norton to fly - who wants to deal
with folks who drive Ladas and Trabants when you are talking big bucks exclusive machinery !!
Someone did say early on there weren't many motorcycles in the Co car park though....
Having GRAND PLANS when you are skint may not be the best business plan in the world either ??

This also brings to mind some (sorta ?) precedents ? Weren't the last batch of Velo's equipped with Concentrics, when they should have been GPs.
AMAL wouldn't extend them any more credit to purchase the GPs, so they had to make do with Concentrics.
And likewise Indian before them in 53 went with Amals on the last batch of Chiefs - Schebler/Linkert etc wouldn't give them enough credit to buy anything more.
Distinctive signs of seriously struggling companies.....

Q. How do you make a small fortune out of manufacturing motorcycles ?

A. Invest a large fortune in it...

THOSE WHO IGNORE HISTORY ARE CONDEMNED TO REPEAT IT. ?

Re: The new Norton goes into administration [Re: Rohan] #798322 02/14/20 8:44 pm
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And I'll tell a story of the difference between a cashed-up buyer and a struggling firm existing on credit.
It comes out of the computer industry - a different kettle of fish, but the same business principles apply ?

In the early days of the PC industry, those new fangled inventions 'hard drives' were in VERY short supply.
Enough to limit sales, with eager buyers waiting, and putting down deposits even.
Now, it became known that one manufacturer had a very large order nearing completion, the trucks were
in the loading dock being loaded even. The purchasing officer of a rival firm enquired if the sale was cash or credit.
On learning it was credit, he enquired if cash might divert the destination of the trucking firms involved.
That evening, the Chief Financial Officer flew down with a very heavy briefcase $$$, and the deal was done before the eve was out.
That quarters sales figures were rather different - and diverted the course of computer PC history. ?

So, when Nortons say that Ohlins shocks or Brembo brakes etc etc etc were/are difficult to source, look behind the words. ???
Now I haven't seen the applicable order books or financial statements to verify every last word - but someone somewhere knows
why Nortons are scratching for components....

Re: The new Norton goes into administration [Re: Rohan] #798323 02/14/20 9:27 pm
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https://www.visordown.com/news/industry/stuart-garner-fails-appear-norton-pensions-hearing

Earlier this month a Guardian and ITV investigation revealed that 228 people had been duped by Garner and his associates – both of whom were already convicted fraudsters – into investing up to £14m.

Despite Garner’s absence, the ombudsman heard from claimants, including Sally Holmes, who’s father had paid into the pension scheme but sadly later died before the funds could be withdrawn. She said, “He had MS so we knew he would pass away young … We tried to drawdown on his pension so that [the family] could spend more time with Dad. We were told that somebody [else] had to buy into the scheme before [Garner] could give the drawdown … It’s been years and years.”

One of the ploys used to get people to transfer their pensions from standard schemes into the Norton pension was the promise of a tax-free lump sum for doing so, the reality was a hefty tax bill and zero lump sum.

Re: The new Norton goes into administration [Re: Rohan] #798325 02/14/20 9:37 pm
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Didn't I read though that Mr Garner wasn't aware that pension monies may have needed to be paid out,
and he was entirely unaware of much of the terms and provisions of what he was involved with here.
Better legal advice may have been needed here ?

It was the folks that supplied these monies that were crooks prior, SG was unaware of this either ?

He was using these monies to prop up his beloved Norton Motors...
In modern parlance this may be termed a ponzi scheme.
In the good-old-days of the Brit motorcycle industry, it was known as a hand-to-mouth existence.

??

Re: The new Norton goes into administration [Re: Rohan] #798326 02/14/20 9:59 pm
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Originally Posted by Rohan
Mr Garner wasn't aware that pension monies may have needed to be paid out,
and he was entirely unaware of much of the terms and provisions of what he was involved with here.


Thanks for the laugh!


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: The new Norton goes into administration [Re: Rohan] #798329 02/14/20 10:29 pm
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Even Bernie Madoff had support despite the overwhelming evidence.

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/02/20/bonventre-not-shaken/5654619/

Ex-Madoff employee maintains he's innocent.

Re: The new Norton goes into administration [Re: Rohan] #798330 02/14/20 10:43 pm
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Running engineering businesses is a never ending battle with cash flow (DAMHIK).
The profitability generally is low so one is living hand to mouth---getting payments in to pay the wages and pay suppliers etc.
There is always the temptation to pay the wages and the suppliers in order to keep things rolling but to conserve cash by postponing payments due to the tax man.
It is a temptation but a temptation that has to be resisted otherwise you are at the start of a slippery slope.
It sounds as though Garner didn't resist the temptation and went full tilt down the slope.
I feel to an extent sorry for the people who put deposits or even the full price down for new bikes but feel even more sorry for the people whose pensions were stolen.
A small engineering company with six Aston Martins---who are they trying to kid?

Re: The new Norton goes into administration [Re: triton thrasher] #798342 02/15/20 1:11 am
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Sir Bernard had a gold Daimler.
And was he ever seen riding a BSA ?

Nothing new under the sun....

Re: The new Norton goes into administration [Re: Rohan] #798343 02/15/20 1:17 am
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Originally Posted by triton thrasher

Thanks for the laugh!


Lets see what the washup of this is.
I've seen it writ that SG was completely unaware the pension monies weren't a long-term proposition.
If he was scrabbling for every penny to be found, he doesn't seem to have been too fussy about the fine print ??
We shall see.

This of course leaves Norton in a totally unsaleable situation, even if someone with more money than sense can be found.
?????

And as we all know, previous owners of Norton have done jail time....

Re: The new Norton goes into administration [Re: kommando] #798347 02/15/20 2:03 am
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Originally Posted by kommando
Even Bernie Madoff had support despite the overwhelming evidence.

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/02/20/bonventre-not-shaken/5654619/

Ex-Madoff employee maintains he's innocent.



In this neck of the woods, the Australian Federal Police were (individually) throwing money into a demonstrated ponzi investment scheme.
Even when the directors were in court, officers were queuing to get money into it !!!!

SG scrabbling to find every penny he can scrummage to keep Norton afloat may not be so different,
but there is a difference ??

Re: The new Norton goes into administration [Re: Rohan] #798356 02/15/20 3:39 am
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At least Sir Bernard was driving a product of the company (Daimler at that time were part of BSA) and was chairman of a well established profitable company.
Not that that justified a gold plated car IMHO but I don't think the two situations are really comparable.
Just my two cents worth of course.

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