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Re: Bushfires , water bombing and fire management [Re: BSA_WM20] #796278 01/22/20 12:05 pm
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It seems that all of our fire fighting authorities see themselves as "protecting " the volunteers by allowing the fires to become massive whille waiting for them to come to a place that is "safe" to defend.
The idea of sending in a crew when it is a single tree smouldering from a lightning strike is apparently "too dangerous" .
Right now the reciently departed fire commissioners are crowing because they said this year would be worse than last year & no one listened to them when they said we needed more aircraft.
To a man they all came from the regular "wet" fire brigades, so their answer is always "more water"
They all were made into celebrity heros by the media and because of that no one in the media is brave enough to say , perhaps we got it wrong.
The worst most destructive fires we have had in NSW are from 2000 till now
The RFS was formed in 1997 coincidence ?
Prior to that we had a rag tag of poorley funded individual brigades consisting of primarily poorly trained volunteers using WWII surplus vehicles, but funny enough there were very few megga fires.
Now we have a modern well equated team of highly co-ordinated, well trained fire fighters who can call in unlimited reinforcements in brand new state of the art trucks backed up with a massive ariel fleet.
Beggs to the asking of a few difficult questions dosent it ?
I am hoping that one of the coriners will recommend charges against the RFS which is about the only way they will wake up to themselves.


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Re: Bushfires , water bombing and fire management [Re: BSA_WM20] #796338 01/22/20 10:50 pm
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We're a bit off topic for a classic bike forum.

True, the former fire commissioners did recommend national assets, including aircraft.

They also argued for action on emissions to limit climate change. The formation of the NSW RFS is no the only change since 1997, Australia's climate has changed too.


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Re: Bushfires , water bombing and fire management [Re: Bikeosaurus] #796349 01/23/20 1:55 am
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Originally Posted by Bikeosaurus
We're a bit off topic for a classic bike forum.

True, the former fire commissioners did recommend national assets, including aircraft.

They also argued for action on emissions to limit climate change. The formation of the NSW RFS is no the only change since 1997, Australia's climate has changed too.


The entire region of the Green Wattle Creek fire was flooded 4 years ago.
SO yes you can attribute the week of explosive ( and they were really explosive) bursts of 40 deg+ westerlies to climate change
And you can attribute the very low humidity to climate change .
I will even allow the current sort of drought on the east coast to be slated home to climate change
All of which set the stage for the ineptitude of the fire managers to create megga fires.
But each and every one of these megga fires started off from a lightning strike so there woud have been 1 and 1 only tree smouldering for a few days till the winds fanned the embers into flame.
If there was not the dried vegitation sitting on the forest floor to carry the fires on they would have stayed as 1 tree and would have been easily bombed out with a 500 l bucket under a small helicopter,
It takes a lot of fire to make a crowing forest fire. If there is not excessive fuel on the ground and in particularly fuel bridging the floor & the canopy then the fire can not crown.

I have been here since 2008 and in that time the river has flooded 4 times.
After each flood you get a massive regrowth most of which dies off as it can not compete with the established trees.
This needs to be either cut & mulched or cut & burned or burned but the current managemant has ignored it and because of that 3 kids no longer have a father.


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Re: Bushfires , water bombing and fire management [Re: BSA_WM20] #796364 01/23/20 6:47 am
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the climate for Southeast and Southwest Australia is in a continuing trend of
hotter and longer dry seasons ( Bushfire season )... identified back as far as 1988 ...

the shorter wet-season also offers less yearly precipitation .
As a long-term general trend Southeast and Southwest stream flows are down 20%
Conversely , the north coast is getting wetter .

Australia's eucalyptus trees , one its wonderful natural assets ... is also a fire hazard .
its leaf and bark litter make for handy fire accelerants .
While this is not helpful to the mature tree , eucalyptus seedling regrowth thrive on burned out areas .

Australia also has a low population density , somewhere around three persons per square mile .

less water , hotter and longer fire season ,
a goodly amount a burnable bio-mass and a general lack of Human Resources ... make for some tough choices .
anyone who thinks there is an easy solution is under thinking the problem .
there will be fires every Bushfire season .
some years catastrophic .

Re: Bushfires , water bombing and fire management [Re: BSA_WM20] #796376 01/23/20 10:39 am
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There is some debate as to the number of aboriginal people were here prior to 1788.
Some believe it to be as low as 200,000 while other will go as high as 2,000,000.
The land mass has not changed particularly in the past 232 yeas.
But from day one the white people started to destroy the carefully managed gardens, or hunting estates if you like.
Setting an acreage quota of "hazard reduction burns " is not the way to reduce hazards .
The 12,000 Ha Kings Tableland "hazard reduction" of 2016 was not hazard reduction, it was the wanton destruction of a forest for the purpose of making a public spectacle big enough to make the evening news and achieving a KPI in order to get a bigger bonus.

Now if to be generous, if 10% of the current population could do it with nothing more than a leafy branch, and they still had to do all the other things of daily life, why can't the white fellas do the same ?
Remember the commissioner is on over $ 450,000 / pa and he has 6 assistants on a touch under $ 300,000 each /pa so it is not that there is insufficient money.
If the commissioner lost $ 10,000 for every house that got burned down and $ 100,000 for every one injusred or killed the results would be very much different.
However they continue to slease out of any responsibility with starting nearly every conference with "the unpredictable fires " ( they are not ) or " the modeling failed to predict " then obviously the modeling does not work.

But because it was made by professional graduate computer modellers, using data provided graduate forest ecologist & bushfire experts, ( usually from a totally different type of forest ) it is considered to be bible truth while the observations of thepeople who have been preventing fires getting out of control for 20 or more yearsand fighting fires using a flawed plan for another 20 years are insignificant because they are just volunteer fire control units and any knowledge they have came from the training that the RFS gave them


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Re: Bushfires , water bombing and fire management [Re: BSA_WM20] #796378 01/23/20 11:21 am
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Hi Trevor

I've enjoyed reading you posts and found out a lot that I wouldn't otherwise.

Pertinent and sobering too, given the C130 crash today. RIP.

It's not me personally attributing the extent of these fires to climate change, it's a science based conclusion based on a compelling and increasing amount of evidence, not the only factor, as you explain. I defer to your knowledge re hazard reduction burns etc.

Previous fire disasters in Australia going back to 1891 Black Saturday, Ash Wednesday, Black Friday (note the 'day'' in the names) have been in Jan-Feb and gone for a day or 2, these ones started in Nov and haven't stopped yet. That is ''unprecedented". Rain forests that would normally be burnt through every 200-300 years have gone up.


For those of you overseas expressing sympathy - much appreciated. I remind you that your votes have value and that understanding the science of climate change and the emissions policies on offer by opposing parties at the next election really matter.

Mick


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Re: Bushfires , water bombing and fire management [Re: BSA_WM20] #796412 01/23/20 7:32 pm
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to top it all off, there have been millions donated and now the corruption steps in.
money is not directed at the people who have been scorched by this disaster.

Christchurch NZ the same thing happened after the earth quake, millions of donation money, never to be seen again
supposedly untraced, yet if you owe $1 tax they know exactly where you are.

theres example of good from the aussie people and then theres the faceless self help bureaucrats

Re: Bushfires , water bombing and fire management [Re: BSA_WM20] #796694 01/27/20 12:58 am
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Added to the donation/charity fiasco:

Red Cross had $115 million but was only going to use $30 million? They have publicly stated that they are holding back other funds for 'future disasters' ….even though the donations were given specifically for this bushfire period [not some possible future].
Salvo's $42 million and only $8.4 million distributed to date?
Vinnies $12.5 million and only $2.4 million distributed to date?

These are the federal governments preferred charities and where all donations given are being channelled.
There are people out there still struggling to own a toothbrush...families with no home, minimal clothing, bedding, furniture, and other necessities, and these charities do a Pontius Pilate.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/bushfire-relief-charity-donations-delay-explainer-2020-1

Added to this, the authorities/powers asked that we stop donating foodstuffs/goods and instead donate cash???? This always makes people suspicious.

Its this sort of lacklustre performance and/or misappropriation of funds that jades the donating community.

Meantime a local supermarket in a fire affected town here was going broke because people were being given donated food [so not buying anything]. This extended to people that were largely unaffected by the fire, house and home still standing, fire blackened area was a view in the distance.

Re: Bushfires , water bombing and fire management [Re: tridentt150v] #796699 01/27/20 1:31 am
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Originally Posted by tridentt150v
Meantime a local supermarket in a fire affected town here was going broke because people were being given donated food [so not buying anything]. This extended to people that were largely unaffected by the fire, house and home still standing, fire blackened area was a view in the distance.
That's the downside of food donations.
Theoretically, cash donations will be used to buy goods locally to keep things ticking over.
That does, of course, require the charities and insurance companies to actually pay it out to those affected by the disaster..

Re: Bushfires , water bombing and fire management [Re: tridentt150v] #796717 01/27/20 5:47 am
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Originally Posted by tridentt150v
Added to the donation/charity fiasco:

Red Cross had $115 million but was only going to use $30 million? They have publicly stated that they are holding back other funds for 'future disasters' ….even though the donations were given specifically for this bushfire period [not some possible future].
Salvo's $42 million and only $8.4 million distributed to date?
Vinnies $12.5 million and only $2.4 million distributed to date?

These are the federal governments preferred charities and where all donations given are being channelled.
There are people out there still struggling to own a toothbrush...families with no home, minimal clothing, bedding, furniture, and other necessities, and these charities do a Pontius Pilate.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/bushfire-relief-charity-donations-delay-explainer-2020-1

Added to this, the authorities/powers asked that we stop donating foodstuffs/goods and instead donate cash???? This always makes people suspicious.

Its this sort of lacklustre performance and/or misappropriation of funds that jades the donating community.

Meantime a local supermarket in a fire affected town here was going broke because people were being given donated food [so not buying anything]. This extended to people that were largely unaffected by the fire, house and home still standing, fire blackened area was a view in the distance.


It is all about political idoligies.
One side of government wants to shrink the public service by geting rid of all those " back room do nothing " public servants so the welfare sector has been privatized to the point that the State government has no mechanism for distributing money in a crisis.
The Premier said the latter bit several times over the last few weeks
And the public have no one to blame but themselves because every election we keep reelecting parties who promice to slash the public service.
The federal government is in the same boat .
Apparently it would take up to 10 weeks to make a payment to affected people via Centerlink and that is only after they have verrified their entitlement to support and centerlink had employed the extra staff required and it has all been through parliament.

The only intelligent scheme that I have heard of was a suggestion to issue everyone whose house the RFS has cerified is unlivable the same credit card that we foistered upon the indiginius people .
Thus they can buy petrol , clothes food & building materials and put a time limit on the card of 2 years
or
As they are all now actually unemployed an automatic 12 months of centrelink support would be enough to get things moving again and the centrelink payments should be verified on a postcode basis.
Don't matter if your house was not burned down and you have the option to send the card back if yu don't need it.
So if the shop you worked in got burned down then you have an income.
The down side is a few hundered might get benefits they are not entitled to.
The up side is the local economies will pick up faster & fewer people will become mental wrecks or eve worse, kill themselves.
A single coriners enquiry can go to better that $ 300,000 so you don't have to prevent many deaths at $ 50,000 /pa to be on the right side of the ledgers do you.


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Re: Bushfires , water bombing and fire management [Re: Shane in Oz] #796812 01/28/20 3:18 am
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Originally Posted by Shane in Oz
Originally Posted by tridentt150v
Meantime a local supermarket in a fire affected town here was going broke because people were being given donated food [so not buying anything]. This extended to people that were largely unaffected by the fire, house and home still standing, fire blackened area was a view in the distance.
That's the downside of food donations.
Theoretically, cash donations will be used to buy goods locally to keep things ticking over.
That does, of course, require the charities and insurance companies to actually pay it out to those affected by the disaster..

I agree Shane....but the criteria for eligibility for food and charity handouts was extremely low. Some people complained about the lingering smoke haze and qualified. Meanwhile others had the clothes they were standing in and ONLY got the same help.
I know of some people in my town evacuating to the nearest big 'safe' centre and getting free motel and meals......our town was never really under that level of threat, and tbh these people were from the lower spectrum of the community. The larger town centre/rural city involved quickly developed and very cynical attitude to people from my town. For some, a motel room, free meals at a nice restaurant. and maybe a trip to the movies etc all for free, was just too good an opportunity to miss!!

Admittedly there were genuine asthma sufferers and other people with health issues that did qualify, but many less then those that went.

Meanwhile others in the actual bushfire towns toughed it out with no electricity [using a generator maybe], no shops open, no fuel available, no phones, and other amenities, plus thick smoke and the ever present threat of fire. Because they considered themselves not qualified because their house was still standing.

Re: Bushfires , water bombing and fire management [Re: BSA_WM20] #796892 01/29/20 8:18 am
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Quote
I agree Shane....but the criteria for eligibility for food and charity handouts was extremely low. Some people complained about the lingering smoke haze and qualified. Meanwhile others had the clothes they were standing in and ONLY got the same help.
I know of some people in my town evacuating to the nearest big 'safe' centre and getting free motel and meals......our town was never really under that level of threat, and tbh these people were from the lower spectrum of the community. The larger town centre/rural city involved quickly developed and very cynical attitude to people from my town. For some, a motel room, free meals at a nice restaurant. and maybe a trip to the movies etc all for free, was just too good an opportunity to miss!!

Admittedly there were genuine asthma sufferers and other people with health issues that did qualify, but many less then those that went.

Meanwhile others in the actual bushfire towns toughed it out with no electricity [using a generator maybe], no shops open, no fuel available, no phones, and other amenities, plus thick smoke and the ever present threat of fire. Because they considered themselves not qualified because their house was still standing.


In cases like this it needs to be low which is why something like "the card" would work wonders.
And if some low lifes decided to get one. who cares ?
They will spend the money locally on food & accommodation plus even a movie or two so the money will flow into the community and get the tills ringing.
If 500 people get one they are not entited to, who cares just so long as those in genuine need get one as well and the villages & towns economic life reactivates.
Making it via a no-grog / no fags card will at least get them some good food and perhaps keep them out of a public hospital bed which I think is now near $ 3000 / day


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Trevor
Re: Bushfires , water bombing and fire management [Re: BSA_WM20] #796957 01/30/20 12:02 am
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lol....the guy who had the supermarket in the fire affected and evaced town - and who had no business when people started coming back when he reopened because everyone was living off the charity food giveaways - said that the only thing he sold was smokes and grog....go figure!!!!

Re: Bushfires , water bombing and fire management [Re: BSA_WM20] #797933 02/09/20 5:17 am
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The RFS now has the local fires rated as "Under Control"

after 8" of rain in the last 4 days

p.s. That's "under control", not "out".These forest fires are far tougher than I expected - 2" would knock over any grass fire/

Attached Files flooding_rain.jpg
Last edited by Shane in Oz; 02/09/20 7:58 am. Reason: Added PS
Re: Bushfires , water bombing and fire management [Re: BSA_WM20] #798032 02/10/20 7:23 am
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The RFS web site doesn't show the Blue Mountains fires now, which probably means they're out.

It rained between 5" and 7" across that area yesterday as well...

Re: Bushfires , water bombing and fire management [Re: BSA_WM20] #798047 02/10/20 6:11 pm
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God finally had pity and took action to help Australia.

Re: Bushfires , water bombing and fire management [Re: Irish Swede] #798065 02/10/20 10:18 pm
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Originally Posted by Irish Swede
God finally had pity and took action to help Australia.


Yes we are now under flood, right down the east coast.
And the cyclone season is just starting.
Obviously she has a funny sense of humour.

OTOH it does go a long way to understanding why the indigenous occupants never bothered to build log cabins with pretty picket fences.

Last edited by BSA_WM20; 02/10/20 10:20 pm.

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