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T150 Anti drain valve re-seating #796928 01/29/20 7:48 pm
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Servodyne Offline OP
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Hello all.
I've stripped my T150 engine down as far as I think it needs to go. It's got a sweet bottom end and excellent cams so I don't plan on splitting the crankcase. But one thing I'd like to sort out is the original anti drain valve, as they are apparently quite prone to leaking and causing wet sumping.
The anti drain valve is a simple spring loaded 7/16" ball bearing, seating on a 1/4" dia hole so what could possibly go wrong? Well looking at the seat on mine, it looks as though there may have been some corrosion (see photo) which has also slightly affected the ball bearing. There is a repair/modification out there which involves machining the old seat out and installing a bronze plug with a new seat. Unfortunately this involves splitting the crankcase and sending the drive side off, which I don't really want to do.
I was wondering if anybody has attempted to re-cut the existing seat. With having the oil pump and filter removed I don't envisage any problem in removing any swarf.
Cheers Jim

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


1957 BSA A10 Spitfire
1971 BSA A65 Firebird
1971 BSA A70 Lightning
1975 Norton Commando
1961 Norton 99
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Re: T150 Anti drain valve re-seating [Re: Servodyne] #796938 01/29/20 9:03 pm
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L.A.B. Online Content
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The seat can be recut.

There's a post about it here although the photos are gone but I expect you will probably get a reply from DMadigan.
http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/383078/re-t160-wet-sumping#Post383078






Last edited by L.A.B.; 01/29/20 9:04 pm.
Re: T150 Anti drain valve re-seating [Re: Servodyne] #796945 01/29/20 10:12 pm
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kommando Offline
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You can get ball ended end mills, weld a rod to the end and that would recur the seat.

Re: T150 Anti drain valve re-seating [Re: Servodyne] #797008 01/30/20 4:00 pm
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dick page Offline
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On my last rebuild, I welded an old ball to the end of a rod and used valve grinding compound to attempt to clean up the sealing edge. Of course any widening of the seat reduces the pressure applied by the spring, so some restraint is required.

Re: T150 Anti drain valve re-seating [Re: Servodyne] #797019 01/30/20 5:32 pm
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DMadigan Offline
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The pictures were on PukeBucket.
If you look closely at your hole it appears the edge of the through hole is not smooth. The problem with this is the ball sits on that edge, not the face of the seat, so it does not seal.
With a standard 118 degree point drill the ball sits on the edge of the hole. If a sharper taper is used the ball will sit on the face of the seat.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
From the pump side you can see how close the bottom of the seat is to the cross hole.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
The red arrow points to the bottom of the seat and the blue line is the intersection of the two holes. There is about 0.015" from the bottom of the seat to the cross hole.
Cut the seat too deep and it will intersect the cross hole and then you have to insert a new seat (disassemble the cases, machine the bore, press in a plug and re-machine).
If you want to move the contact point away from the hole you can use a smaller ball, 1/4", welded to a rod and lap the hole with grinding paste. That will make a new edge away from the rough through hole.
I made this tool to re-angle the seat and control the depth.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
The collar is adjusted with a feeler gauge so it bottoms on the bolt head at the final depth.
I believe I sent one of these to Clive Blake, the TR3OC Spares Liaison in the UK.

Re: T150 Anti drain valve re-seating [Re: Servodyne] #797043 01/30/20 9:42 pm
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Servodyne Offline OP
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Thanks for that.
I may have a bigger problem than I thought. It looks as though the PO has drilled the hole freehand to 1/4" dia and done it out of true to the bore of the drain valve and there's not much left of the seat where it intersects the hole in the oil pump cavity.
I may just try lapping in what's left of the hole to see if I can get a complete seat. I've bonded a 7/16" ball bearing to an old pushrod to give it a try. If that fails I'm probably into splitting the case and getting the bung repair carried out.
Thanks to all for the contributions.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


1957 BSA A10 Spitfire
1971 BSA A65 Firebird
1971 BSA A70 Lightning
1975 Norton Commando
1961 Norton 99
Re: T150 Anti drain valve re-seating [Re: Servodyne] #797051 01/30/20 11:01 pm
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DMadigan Offline
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No, that is the way it usually looks from the factory. You do not want to use a 7/16" ball as that puts the sealing point at the edge of the bottom hole. Use a smaller ball, such as 3/8", so the seat moves away from the drilled hole. (1/4" as I mentioned before is too small since the bottom hoe is 1/4").

Re: T150 Anti drain valve re-seating [Re: Servodyne] #797067 01/31/20 1:00 am
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Dave---it is probably me being thick (it is not unusual) but surely you need a larger diameter ball to seat and hopefully seal on the taper rather than on the edge of the hole?

Re: T150 Anti drain valve re-seating [Re: Servodyne] #797071 01/31/20 1:26 am
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DMadigan Offline
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Yes, it is preferable to seat on the face of the taper but if he is going to use a ball to surface the seat he has to bring the contact edge away from the ragged hole. I just measured a T150 case, the bottom hole is 0.251" and the I.D. of the thread is 0.455". Using a 3/8" ball will put a concave surface that intersects the conical seat away from the bottom hole. Of course he also has the problem of the conical surface itself not being smooth. You can see circular rings in the surface.
Look at my drawing above and you can see the 82 degree taper changes the seat angle enough to make the ball sit on the face of the seat and not the edge of the hole.
You need a tool that can be carefully controlled, not just hand cut. If you had a +0.002" 1/4" reamer and a way to hold it square to the bore the you could fix the ragged edge that way too.
A heavier spring would help also. The ADV is on the upstream side of the filter so any dirt in the oil can hold the ball off the seat.

Re: T150 Anti drain valve re-seating [Re: Servodyne] #797104 01/31/20 10:22 am
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kommando Offline
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You could use a different material for the ball, on my Norton non return valve I changed from steel which leaked with the slightest bit of crud on the seat to oil proof rubber and 20 years later it still seals every time.

Re: T150 Anti drain valve re-seating [Re: Servodyne] #797146 01/31/20 10:39 pm
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That is very interesting and relevant experience, K.
What hardness rubber did you use for the ball?---if you can remember that is after 20 years!

Re: T150 Anti drain valve re-seating [Re: Servodyne] #797213 02/01/20 3:37 pm
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Servodyne Offline OP
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I've obtained a 9mm ball bearing to try the lapping process. I was thinking of checking for leakage by installing the anti drain valve with a new 7/16 ball and turning the engine on its side and filling the oil pump cavity with very light oil after blanking off all the other holes. Any leakage should be apparent through the PRV port.
I'm interested in using a rubber ball though. Has any body tried it?
On the subject of crud entering the anti drain valve, having been returned from the engine, into the oil tank and then into the anti drain valve via the pressure side of the pump. Has any one tried fitting a cartridge oil filter to the return line to stop this happening?


1957 BSA A10 Spitfire
1971 BSA A65 Firebird
1971 BSA A70 Lightning
1975 Norton Commando
1961 Norton 99
Re: T150 Anti drain valve re-seating [Re: Servodyne] #797223 02/01/20 6:07 pm
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kommando Offline
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Will post more info on rubber balls and other alternative materials on monday.

Yes the rubber ball works, also using a steel ball on an O ring as the seat works as well.

When I had a leaking non return valve when I took it apart there was a tiny piece of dirt stuck to the seat, it was stuck well and despite its small size you could blow through the valve when the ball was in place. There was already an oil filter in the return pipe, but the oil tank is steel with a cap so you can still get internal corrosion plus specs of dirt introduced when topping up or changing oil.

Re: T150 Anti drain valve re-seating [Re: Servodyne] #797265 02/02/20 12:02 am
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That should be very interesting and useful, Kommando.
A solution with 20 years of known experience behind it is truly useful.
Thanks for going to the effort of digging out the info.

Re: T150 Anti drain valve re-seating [Re: Servodyne] #797267 02/02/20 12:26 am
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Didn't somebody try the rubber coated ball bearing ….and it delaminated? Thought I read that somewhere?

Re: T150 Anti drain valve re-seating [Re: Servodyne] #797326 02/02/20 7:21 pm
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Rick Bee Offline
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I reseated the same thing on my T160, still leaked but a lot less. I've read you can get an oil tank strainer with built in check valve to stop this has abnyone tried this? Is it even worth worrying about apart from the challenge of fixing it?

Re: T150 Anti drain valve re-seating [Re: Servodyne] #797384 02/03/20 2:13 am
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Steven A Offline
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I lapped mine with a ball on a rod. It didn't work very well. Emptied after three months.

Re: T150 Anti drain valve re-seating [Re: Steven A] #797394 02/03/20 8:31 am
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Simon750-3 Offline
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The anti-drain valve isnt the only thing that can leak.

Can also get a slow leak through the oil pump into the transmission then back to sump - think that's what mine is doing but its not a worry. Need to ride more often - its a chore but you got to do it !

Haven't tried it yet - but at the next oil change I will warm the bike up then remove the oil filter and empty the cavity.
See how much oil seeps in as the oil cools down. That should show how good the valve is.

Re: T150 Anti drain valve re-seating [Re: Servodyne] #797396 02/03/20 9:39 am
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kommando Offline
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Cure for cross leaking pumps, X rings on shafts.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]




Re: T150 Anti drain valve re-seating [Re: kommando] #797400 02/03/20 10:06 am
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Originally Posted by kommando
Cure for cross leaking pumps, X rings on shafts.

Great idea if you have the workshop to do it.

Next time I have mine apart I will check the clearance between the gears and the body on the scavange side.

Have always checked/skimmed the feed side to ensure max pressure but it occurs to me that reduced clearance on the scavange side could decrease cold oil leaking past.

+ I always install the non-driven shaft with sealant

Re: T150 Anti drain valve re-seating [Re: Servodyne] #797401 02/03/20 10:19 am
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kommando Offline
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I did that fix to 7 BSA Unit Single pumps last week and the shafts were a tight fit, even the driven ones which then made the pumps difficult to turn. So I reamed the body shaft holes to 5/16 using a reamer I use on valve guides and got a much easier turn with no play and then milled the recess for the X rings. So it looks like BSA went tight on the pump shaft clearance to reduce the leakage at the expense of a higher effort to turn the pump. The Norton pump had the same shaft fit as I got after reaming the shaft holes on the BSA pumps.

I did them on a vertical mill with DRO, I mounted them in a vice and dialled that in to the table so the jaws lined up properly, however when using the DRO to locate the centres of the shaft holes I found them all 1 to 2 thou out of line and a Norton pump was 3 thou out of line.

Re: T150 Anti drain valve re-seating [Re: Servodyne] #797418 02/03/20 2:03 pm
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kommando Offline
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Here are the 4 types of ball I have found, from the top left clockwise we have

Steel

Rubber

Torlon (type of plastic with good tolerance to oil and very high strength)

Bronze

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Re: T150 Anti drain valve re-seating [Re: Steven A] #797661 02/06/20 4:06 am
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Bodie Offline
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Originally Posted by Steven A
I lapped mine with a ball on a rod. It didn't work very well. Emptied after three months.

laughing well consider yourself lucky .. I'm still trying to work out why my fuel tank is always empty by the end of the day wink

Three Months is a miracle result .. I've done all this grinding & lapping on both my bikes years ago , For the first few months I really thought i'd cured it ,, Must be 3 years since then and i'd be lucky if there's much oil left in the tank after say 3 or 4 weeks now .
I just except "it is what it is" now and make sure I start them up regularly even if i'm not riding them .

Re: T150 Anti drain valve re-seating [Re: Servodyne] #797737 02/07/20 12:34 am
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Hi Kommando---can you remember the composition of the rubber ball and its Shore hardness that has given you 20 years of good service.
I don't want to reinvent the wheel as you seem to have the one thing that someone trying it for the first time does not have----good proven service life over a long period of time.
Thanks in advance for any info.

Re: T150 Anti drain valve re-seating [Re: Servodyne] #797772 02/07/20 2:13 pm
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kommando Offline
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TM, thinking back it was still a steel ball but the seat was rubber, I had tried an oil non return valve which was steel ball on steel seat but it leaked so I then went to an airline non-return with steel ball and rubber seat, this needed modifying as the spring was too strong but once I changed to a much lighter spring it sealed properly and opened as soon as the engine started.

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