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Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796380 01/23/20 1:04 pm
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kevin roberts Offline
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i have a buell that is faster than all but my LSR triumph twinz. its a 97 so 23 years old. does 132 mph with lights and a horn.

not comfortable to ride there though.


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Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796396 01/23/20 4:55 pm
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...new Triumph twin 1200 thruxton is faster.

Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796469 01/24/20 2:00 pm
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Reverb, Ducati and Aprilia make two cylinder bikes that will destroy a Triumph 1200 in any contest of speed.And Kevin's 96 Buell pushrod Harley engine is probably faster to 120 MPH............ I was drag racing a 67 650 and then a bit later, a 74 Trident in the 1970's. I rode the Kawasaki 500 and 750 2 strokes, 900 Z, Honda 750, Yamaha 1100 and others when these bikes were new and popular.. My memories of what was fast is different than described by SG and Tigernuts.The Yamaha 1100 had, for that time, insane acceleration from 80 MPH, it would just walk away from my well tuned Trident and my Trident could do the same to any well tuned stock Triumph twin....But that aside, you may enjoy a look at this 1973 Cycle Magazine comparison road test.. Cook Neilson was the magazine editor then, a no BS bike racer and builder. Look at the names of those who tuned these bikes, some well known Norton and Triumph guys, no doggy bikes here..All were ridden by very expereinced riders . The bikes were more or less stock but some had gearing changes to better acceleration... Read the tests cafefully, the bikes were pushed to the limits...Then show me a documented test of acceleration of a stock Triumph 650 or 750 for a comparison...
Superbikes 1973
As we say in drag or land speed racing, "if you ain't got a time slip to prove it, it never happened... grin


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796531 01/25/20 8:43 am
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Stein Roger Offline
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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Reverb, Ducati and Aprilia make two cylinder bikes that will destroy a Triumph 1200 in any contest of speed.And Kevin's 96 Buell pushrod Harley engine is probably faster to 120 MPH............ I was drag racing a 67 650 and then a bit later, a 74 Trident in the 1970's. I rode the Kawasaki 500 and 750 2 strokes, 900 Z, Honda 750, Yamaha 1100 and others when these bikes were new and popular.. My memories of what was fast is different than described by SG and Tigernuts.The Yamaha 1100 had, for that time, insane acceleration from 80 MPH, it would just walk away from my well tuned Trident and my Trident could do the same to any well tuned stock Triumph twin....But that aside, you may enjoy a look at this 1973 Cycle Magazine comparison road test.. Cook Neilson was the magazine editor then, a no BS bike racer and builder. Look at the names of those who tuned these bikes, some well known Norton and Triumph guys, no doggy bikes here..All were ridden by very expereinced riders . The bikes were more or less stock but some had gearing changes to better acceleration... Read the tests cafefully, the bikes were pushed to the limits...Then show me a documented test of acceleration of a stock Triumph 650 or 750 for a comparison...
Superbikes 1973
As we say in drag or land speed racing, "if you ain't got a time slip to prove it, it never happened... grin

True, and my friend's XS11 was possibly a lemon.
These days of 250 bhp superbikes is nothing like 40-50 years ago, when the bike you bought was the quickest and fastest on test. Today you buy the kind of bike you want with the power you need, the accessories and what have you. Different scene altogether. They still discuss power but with a different vocabulary. They talk about power delivery, throttle response and "rider modes", not so much about acceleration and speed, as in Cook Neilson and Allan Girdler's days.

Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796542 01/25/20 1:46 pm
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When the 750 Honda came out riders raved about them. I was unimpressed, sure it was smoother than my 650 Triumph but it lacked the instant throttle response and felt slow. But if you used the gearbox and reved the engine near redline it got up and moved out pretty good..And being a Honda you could rev the snot out of it all day long...The Kawasaki 900Z was a lot faster than the Honda 750 and vibrated more and like the Honda it felt heavy.....Then in 1978 I was riding my trusty 650 Triumph and saw a 1974 Ducati 750 for sale at a large Suzuki dealer...I had been reading Cook Neilson's reports on it's great handling and feel...The dealer let me take it for a test ride.. Oh my god! I bought it on the spot despite I could not afford the asking price..It was so stable and smooth , the vibration was there but well dampened so it was like nothing else I ever rode.But after a few years I sold the Ducati and bought a T150 and started drag racing again...Then later on a few more Triumph twins.. I never did break my Triumph twin addiction....Now my T140D and 96 Ducati 900 Monster seem like the perfect bikes for me..


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796555 01/25/20 4:10 pm
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hi Hillbilly; do not know what incredible Aprilia or Ducati model you refer...but the monster or the only twin Aprilia that I know, are not faster.

Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796557 01/25/20 4:46 pm
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Fernando, you need to look more, Ducati and Aprilia make a variety of twins both naked frame and with body work...Newer 1000 monsters run the 1/4 mile in high 10's. Top speeds are not so important but they are around 150 mph...Aprilia has similar performance from naked frame bikes...Even my old 96 900 Monster is capable of high 11's in the 1/4 mile with a experienced rider.. What speeds do you find for the 1200 Triumph twin? But slight differences don't really matter so it's ride what you like...


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796564 01/25/20 5:57 pm
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Cook Neilson has been mentioned... He was a star editor and a crafty racer, but I remember very well his predictions as the 70's drew to an end and the 80's were upon us.
"Make no mistake"", he wrote, this is the era of the Superbike!" As he saw it, imminent noise and emission legislation was about to put an end to the current big and fast fours, just like the big American muscle-cars had been emasculated by emission control a decade earlier.
Japan soon proved him wrong, 1984 saw the introduction of the GSXR750, the FJ1100 and the GPZ900, all fearfully fast. I can't remember what Cook wrote then... wink

Last edited by Stein Roger; 01/25/20 6:08 pm.
Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796565 01/25/20 6:07 pm
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As a nod to the OP, I just overhauled the gearbox on a Harris Bonnie, #836 to be precise. I promised earlier to check the timing on every T140 passing through my garage, but this was a sweet running and oil tight machine, and I had no business other than the transmission, so I didn't. Sorry!
Seat of the pants impression says inlet 90-92 degree LC, it pulled nicely up to 5500 rpm with no excitement or drama, more than 6000 rpm was a waste of time.

SR

Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Stein Roger] #796571 01/25/20 6:54 pm
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Considering that many Triumphs might be ridden only at moderate speeds, then the 90-92 degree intake lobe center is ok for that...But I think a Triumph has too much sporting heritage to have such a short leash.... wink


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796577 01/25/20 7:12 pm
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Stein Roger Offline
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I suppose you're right, they're mostly ridden softly these days. I mentioned altering the inlet timing to the "Harris" owner, but he's OK with it he says. He usually rides with buddies on A10s and the like anyway.
He previously owned a similar bike (#35) I once owned and tuned, and conceded it was way quicker. It stayed with a good Mk3 Commando, not bad at all.
To me it isn't about absolute performance though, it's about performing well within the scope of the design. And to outrun the Nortons and Beesa's!

Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796582 01/25/20 7:29 pm
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Surely a change from say 107 LC to near 90 LC is a simple tooth change on the pinion?
Perhaps half an hour I would have thought?

Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796593 01/25/20 9:48 pm
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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
When the 750 Honda came out riders raved about them. I was unimpressed, sure it was smoother than my 650 Triumph but it lacked the instant throttle response and felt slow. But if you used the gearbox and reved the engine near redline it got up and moved out pretty good..And being a Honda you could rev the snot out of it all day long...The Kawasaki 900Z was a lot faster than the Honda 750 and vibrated more and like the Honda it felt heavy.....Then in 1978 I was riding my trusty 650 Triumph and saw a 1974 Ducati 750 for sale at a large Suzuki dealer...I had been reading Cook Neilson's reports on it's great handling and feel...The dealer let me take it for a test ride.. Oh my god! I bought it on the spot despite I could not afford the asking price..It was so stable and smooth , the vibration was there but well dampened so it was like nothing else I ever rode.But after a few years I sold the Ducati and bought a T150 and started drag racing again...Then later on a few more Triumph twins.. I never did break my Triumph twin addiction....Now my T140D and 96 Ducati 900 Monster seem like the perfect bikes for me..

Kind of my experience, too. Never liked the Honda 750's until the second generation DOHC bikes. However, I wasn't buying new bikes until I could afford them in starting in the late 70's. My first fast motorcycle was the GPZ550. Mind you, I needed a bike that could handle the SoCal freeways, and while power was needed, so was nimble handling and good brakes.
It made a claimed 65bhp. Hard know if that was accurate, but the mags claimed it was as fast as any 750 on the market. I believe it. Very cammy power delivery....you had to know how to ride it.
It replaced my more mundane KZ550. At the end of the day or rather 25 years later, when it came time to buy a classic commuter bike, the KZ won out over the GPZ mainly due to it broader spread of power. However, I was then living on Kauai where there is but one lonely road across the island. Not much traffic and speed limits at 45mph tops.
My experience with more modern machines is limited to the Buell I owned for a year. I had that bike to 135mph with more to go. I sold it soon thereafter mainly because at those speeds, the bike was so smooth and steady. Some folks shouldn't have that much power......and I'm one of them.
Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: HawaiianTiger] #796614 01/26/20 2:04 am
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Hillbilly, Your spot on! good running triumph, and a 900cc belt drive ducati is about all we need!! Instant smiles as you twist the throttles on these bikes!!
I still have not checked the Intake on my t140 but with power dropping off a cliff at 5500 i am sure its 90-92 . But its a dirtbike, and work great from 2-5000k!!

Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: koan58] #796638 01/26/20 9:26 am
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Originally Posted by koan58
Surely a change from say 107 LC to near 90 LC is a simple tooth change on the pinion?
Perhaps half an hour I would have thought?

That's a whole tooth, yes. But I want around a 100. One tooth won't get you there unless you start with 85 deg og 115 deg LC, so the camwheel needs to be pulled.
To do it right you need to attach a degree disc somewhere, and use the method suggested by Pete R, where you only need to remove the inlet rocker cover and the timing cover.
It would take me a lot more than half an hour. If it was my bike I'd have done it, but I don't work for others for free...

Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796644 01/26/20 1:15 pm
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I have never tried to change Triumph cam timing with the pushrods in place and spring load on the timing gears.. Can it be done or is it like trying to pick up a turd by the clean end?

My bike rides are generally never more than an hour at a time...Usually on secondary roads with little traffic so the bike can be flogged ...A reasonably smooth Triumph that can make power from 4500 -6500 rpm is great for this...As J Hall says, Triumphs and belt drive Ducatis make you smile, even laughing inside your helmet...


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796664 01/26/20 6:50 pm
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Yes, I'v tried it but it was a little easier than your example. Ick. You have to back off the valve adjuster all the way. In fact, I dislodged the pushrod altogether. Re-engaging the push rod on an assembled top end is a good trick if you can manage it. I think in the end, you'd be just as well off taking the rocker boxes off.

I've ridden countless Triumphs of all years and sizes(ironically, never a Trident) but the feeling I get from a Triumph is similar to having a gorgeous girlfriend who is a nut case. Can't stay away, but you have a lot of bruises the next day.

My Norton (I understand exactly how inappropriate it is to say this on a Triumph forum) is a Love/Love relationship. After 37 years of riding this one, I still get that thrill every time I ride it. And, no bruising....It is literally the fastest, smoothest and most reliable vehicle of any sort I've ever owned. (OK comparing to the Buell isn't fair since I only put 300 miles on it in a year. It was horribly uncomfortable to ride)

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796669 01/26/20 7:07 pm
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Bill--you had better get a Trident.
You will get a combination of the experiences you described above for a Triumph and a Norton!
BTW-- I like your description of the addictive attractions of a Triumph!

Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796677 01/26/20 8:21 pm
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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
I have never tried to change Triumph cam timing with the pushrods in place and spring load on the timing gears.. Can it be done or is it like trying to pick up a turd by the clean end?

My bike rides are generally never more than an hour at a time...Usually on secondary roads with little traffic so the bike can be flogged ...A reasonably smooth Triumph that can make power from 4500 -6500 rpm is great for this...As J Hall says, Triumphs and belt drive Ducatis make you smile, even laughing inside your helmet...

Yes I have done it, it's not that hard. Find out which key way you want to use, pull the cam wheel, put it back on in the new position. This is when the fun starts, I don't worry about timing until now.
Turn the cams until the dots line up, slip the idler gear in. It doesn't take all that much to overcome the spring tension, but an extra hand is welcome.
If I can do it, you can.

Pluss 1 to Tridentman on triples! I've built and repaired quite a few Commandos these last few years, and I can't say I like them as much as Bill does.
Just don't expect a triple to perform like a Commando, it's way different and vastly more impressive! As always, IMHO! beerchug

SR

Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796723 01/27/20 11:41 am
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I think about getting another Trident but it's been years since I owned one....Now they have become expensive and even a pile of parts is pricey....And they are a bit heavier than I care for......


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796751 01/27/20 5:41 pm
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HB "I have never tried to change Triumph cam timing with the pushrods in place and spring load on the timing gears.. Can it be done or is it like trying to pick up a turd by the clean end?"

SR "Yes I have done it, it's not that hard. Find out which key way you want to use, pull the cam wheel, put it back on in the new position. This is when the fun starts, I don't worry about timing until now.
Turn the cams until the dots line up, slip the idler gear in. It doesn't take all that much to overcome the spring tension, but an extra hand is welcome. "

It is indeed entirely possible, just a bit fiddly for 2 hands, as both cams don't want to comply. I'm sure there are other ways, but I have used spanners on both cam nuts (oil pump off). There is usually just enough wiggle in the intermediate bush to catch teeth on the crank pinion and one of the cam pinions, leaving the other cam pinion movable (it only takes a tiny engagement to hold). Then just align that one and wiggle the idler in.

As you know, the dots/dashes system for setting the pinions can only be used on cam pinions using the standard keyway.
If one of the non-standard keyways is used, then you must be using a DTI and degree disc anyway? The correct gap between teeth on such a pinion to use for alignment will then be the one on the radial line from the centre through the keyway (they will of course be slightly out of line, the whole point of the exercise).

Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796761 01/27/20 6:52 pm
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There was a white and yellow triple here a few years ago. It really needed some love. I bet I could have it for a song since no one here would have any idea what to do with it. I think that would make it a T160 which is the triple I think looks the best. Thing is, I would have to sell one of my bikes to get it. So, would it be my daily rider Honda? No, I need it. My Norton? After 37 years? I've been through a dozen lady friends, but this one has always been faithful. My Triumph? After all the work I just did to it? Oh, no, it's much too much fun right now.
So, this is a quandary which is fine, but not likely to resolve anytime soon.
Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: HawaiianTiger] #796763 01/27/20 7:22 pm
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Bill, get a dog. Always glad to see you, don't argue much. I agree on the Norton comment. While I believe my Triumphs are much prettier, my Norton out runs them all.

Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Oil Changer] #796773 01/27/20 9:29 pm
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This is Nalu, 15 lbs of pure attitude, no fear, excellent ratter, mouser and chicken-er(more like executioner) But most of all the perfect chick magnet, He gets me off my lazy butt and out to the park for exercise every day. (that's where I meet all the ladies) Worth his weight in gold.
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
My problem is space and bucks. Not enough of either shoots you down for doing another project.
Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796774 01/27/20 9:43 pm
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I agree, the T160 is a beautiful bike. Always loved them, never had one.

I rebuilt a T150 for a pal once, fortunately the crank spec'd out. It was much more than the twin journey I'm used to, and took much longer.

They're the same basic technology, but you do have to be much more fussy with the crank. If that needs regrinding, especially the centre journals, you absolutely need people competent at that specific job.

A rebuild on a triple is probably 2-3 times the cost of our "old heaps" twins.

And that's if you do most of the work yourself!

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