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Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: BikeVice] #795744 01/16/20 8:48 am
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Originally Posted by BikeVice

I'm rebuilding a 1979 T140E/V for a friend (E engine but will get a V cylinder head) and was surprised to find an intake lobe center of 102° with the timing set at the factory marks. I didn't check the timing before disassembly, but this is the original cam, crankshaft, and gears. I don't think the timing could have shifted more than a degree or two during the rebuild. The LF Harris E3134 exhaust cam lobe center measures 98.5° at the factory marks, so I'll try advancing that 1/3rd of a tooth.

Eric

Interesting. One 79 E I did had 90 degrees and another 92. One test in a US Magazine got a low 13 quarter and a high top speed out of a 79. (Someone posted it on here.)
That can't happen with 90-92 intake LC. With 102 degrees I think it could. Such things won't happen at random, perhaps a batch of cams with a different key position were produced?

SR

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Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #795752 01/16/20 1:36 pm
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In my 79 dual plug head I have 2 spitfire camshafts with the gears in the factory marks (if PO did the stuff as he said) according to what Pete Russell suggested in that VB article; that in his view is one nice set up; however, in which lobe center he was thinking?
Seems that is not possible to check the lobe center with the engine fitted...

Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: reverb] #795753 01/16/20 1:59 pm
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Originally Posted by reverb
In my 79 dual plug head I have 2 spitfire camshafts with the gears in the factory marks (if PO did the stuff as he said) according to what Pete Russell suggested in that VB article; that in his view is one nice set up; however, in which lobe center he was thinking?
Seems that is not possible to check the lobe center with the engine fitted...

Generally speaking, intake lobe center of 100 degrees, exhaust about 102 degrees works well for sporty riding...Your engine would probably run better on the street with a "3134" exhaust cam instead of the Spitfire.....Most Triumph racing cams have lobe centers around 105 degrees. Kevin and I use around 105 on the intake and 107-109 on the exhausts for the land speed race bikes.
I find it difficult to check valve timing on an assembled engine in an OIF....I found it easier to pull the head and set up the dial indicator directly off the tappets. But the frame still interfers with the dial indicator.. pulling the engine and doing it on the bench is probably best for most hobbyists.


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: reverb] #795789 01/16/20 7:53 pm
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Originally Posted by reverb
In my 79 dual plug head I have 2 spitfire camshafts with the gears in the factory marks (if PO did the stuff as he said) according to what Pete Russell suggested in that VB article; that in his view is one nice set up; however, in which lobe center he was thinking?
Seems that is not possible to check the lobe center with the engine fitted...

Two Spitfire cams won't really be effective until 5500 rpm or so, while a pair of E3134 pulls hard from 4000.

Pete R suggested a method for checking lobe centers with the heads on, it works, I've done it on a T140.

In Pete R's own words:
There is an easy way to check lobe centre timing, if you're careful.
If you wanted 100 deg ATDC intake, bring the piston to TDC with the valve just opening. Adjust valve clearance to zero. Turn the engine forward until the clearance is zero again (just closing). If that point is 20 deg ABDC, you're OK.
20/2 + 90 = 100 deg ATDC
Don't continue turning the engine. When the valve clearance reaches 5/32", the pushrod can jump out of place. You will need to tighten valve clearance adjustment as you turn the engine further.

Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Stein Roger] #795794 01/16/20 9:28 pm
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Boy is that clever. I miss old PeteR. Certainly one of the most clever and well informed individuals ever to grace these pages. Plus, he didn't hide his secrets. He was a big man in my eyes.
Cheers,
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Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #795829 01/17/20 3:06 am
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...hi Tony; do not know exactly what "street" means. Under 6000RPM? I only use the bikes on the road (and when I enter to some town or city) at strong cruising speed. I am not a bar hopper or a Sunday biker site seeing views.


hi Stein; thank you I can understand the concept but is difficult to me to figure out the exactly procedure.

Mr Russell always responded my questions in another forum and always tried to help in all the forums with his experience tuning the units.

Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #795831 01/17/20 3:26 am
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Just another story on T140s I have not checked the LC yet on this engine, I will later this year, and make some changes!
On my Dyno max power was 5K, I pulled it to 5500. 5k was max, started down at 5, and fell way off at 5500.
With the stock (2) 30mm Mk2s 35Hp, 40 Tq. Thin air filters and open mufflers

Wanted fewer parts and a better air filter before going to ride in the desert., Made a Y intake manifold to turn the carb out to the left, and a bigger foam filter...
Used (1) 30 mm Mk1 carb 34Hp, 41.5 tq
This was back to back on the dyno, within 20 min of each other.
Since this is a dirtbike I was happy with the extra TQ, but I would like to try changing the LC just to see!!

This was all on a bone stock 79 T140 engine, 12k miles, never been apart! I will report cam specs when i get time to check it

Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #795847 01/17/20 9:40 am
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JakeH you have described perfectly how a 90 degree LC inlet feels to me.
An early inlet should make for lots of low end torque but with a long duration cam like this it all goes to waste. Out the exhaust that is. A well timed T140 inlet should work well from 5500 or so but timed like this it’s all over before it starts...

Looking forward to learn about your findings!

Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: reverb] #795851 01/17/20 12:10 pm
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Originally Posted by reverb
...hi Tony; do not know exactly what "street" means. Under 6000RPM? I only use the bikes on the road (and when I enter to some town or city) at strong cruising speed. I am not a bar hopper or a Sunday biker site seeing views.

.

Mr Russell always responded my questions in another forum and always tried to help in all the forums with his experience tuning the units.

By street us I mean the rpm range the rider most often uses....If you like to ride fast, that would probably mean 4000-6000 plus rpm.........

What Stein Rogers describes is exactly how my 79 T140D ran with the stock cam timing...After setting the intake to 100 degrees, a "3134" exhaust cam at 102 degrees. The engine lost very little power below 3000 rpm and pulls strongly to an indicated 7000 rpm in the gears . It does have mild power surge of coming up on the cams at around 4500 rpm..In fact the engine is happy to run at 2000 rpm in high gear on level ground in town without any complaints. (don't start the lugging stories,lol). There are a few other modifications to the engine but they don't affect the basic "feel" of it


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: JakeH] #796128 01/20/20 10:06 pm
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35 bhp max! That seems utterly feeble if you don;t mind me saying so. There must be a good reason for such a low power output. Classic Bike magazine tested two Commandos a few years ago (I think it was an 850 and a 750). Both came out on the dyno with pathetic figures, but both were very probably badly put together. The Combat 750 was rated at 60bhp and even given a bit of artistic license by the manufacturer, the true figure for an off the shelf example can;t have been far below that. And a really good 750 twin Triumph feels pretty similar to a Commando. But one with 35 BHP would feel more like some sort of Honda!


If anything other than a blank space is visible here, something's wrong.
Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Tigernuts] #796135 01/20/20 10:34 pm
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Originally Posted by Tigernuts
35 bhp max! That seems utterly feeble if you don;t mind me saying so. There must be a good reason for such a low power output. Classic Bike magazine tested two Commandos a few years ago (I think it was an 850 and a 750). Both came out on the dyno with pathetic figures, but both were very probably badly put together. The Combat 750 was rated at 60bhp and even given a bit of artistic license by the manufacturer, the true figure for an off the shelf example can;t have been far below that. And a really good 750 twin Triumph feels pretty similar to a Commando. But one with 35 BHP would feel more like some sort of Honda!

J Hall, no stranger to Brit Bikes, is refering to rear wheel HP...Poking around Access Norton, I have seen 42 RWHP mentioned for 750 and maybe 850 Nortons...With the stock T140 intake lobe center at 90 degrees as many of us have found, they are doggy at higher speeds. It appears that a few 750'smay had more reasonable cam timing, maybe changed by the dealer when new, or???


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796169 01/21/20 3:28 am
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Tiger, your confusing, what the Mfg SAY and the truth!! Since having a dyno we have learned that there are LOTS of false numbers!! you also have to remember that
they quote at the crank, and i am talking about at the rear tire. That loss is in the 15-18% range.

Just some other numbers
Combat i rebuilt last year was 46.5 at 6500.
We have never seen a stock 850 commando over 43.
BSA goldstar with 36mm carb, full race engine 41
My t140 dirtbike 35
We did have a guy come up for a dyno run last year
with a 73T140 2 30mm carbs, and coctail shaker ex, Engine was rebuilt, but he had no specs
it was 43Hp 41Tq. That would be a good street bike!!

So numbers are just that numbers ! All Dynos are different, they are a tuning tool!

Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796179 01/21/20 8:12 am
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Horsepower fibs are as old as the industry. In his book "Norton Twins" Roy Bacon says a normal Commando, 750 or 850, produced around 50 bhp at the crank, with the Combat producing a few more.
60 and 65 were "sales figures". This corresponds perfectly well with Jake's findings, and my butt dyno for that matter, when it comes to some T140s... grin

SR

Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796191 01/21/20 1:48 pm
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...hi Tony; but if you found 90 on the intake of a T140 and Mr Russell said 107; that is what I referred; I mean, with the other two alternative keeways, you would obtain numbers that is better to move to the keeway that almost nobody use to obtain 9.6 instead of the A mark where you can obtain those 4.8º.

Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796208 01/21/20 5:14 pm
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"but if you found 90 on the intake of a T140 and Mr Russell said 107"

I haven't paid much attention, but if you wanted to make most of this adjustment wouldn't you move by a whole tooth (14.4 deg) then fiddle with the keyways if you wanted to get slightly closer.
The tooth would get to within 2.6 deg of desired, an alternative keyway could then get to 2.2 deg of desired (not sure I'd be bothered with the last bit).

Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796225 01/21/20 9:15 pm
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15% off 50bhp + 7.5 = 42.5 at the wheel. That seems possibly a bit more realistic. Maybe dyno readings vary a lot? I have no idea what the Japanese figures were (they used to quote "PS", whatever a PS is, and their bikes seemed to have almost double the Brit equivalents, yet somehow manage to go no faster!

I reckon there must be a lot of badly out of tune Brit bikes out there if people are getting figures as low as some quoted above - either that or a lot of dynos are out of tune.

Last edited by Tigernuts; 01/21/20 9:16 pm.

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Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796228 01/21/20 9:43 pm
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DIN 66036 defines one metric horsepower as the power to raise a mass of 75 kilograms against the Earth's gravitational force over a distance of one metre in one second:[18] 75 kg × 9.80665 m/s2 × 1 m / 1 s = 75 kgf⋅m/s = 1 PS. This is equivalent to 735.499 W, or 98.6% of an imperial mechanical horsepower. (from Wiki)

So a PS is almost the same (1.4% smaller) as a HP (which is ~746W), so reporting in PS does give a tiny benefit in numbers.

Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Tigernuts] #796238 01/21/20 11:37 pm
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Originally Posted by Tigernuts
15% off 50bhp + 7.5 = 42.5 at the wheel. That seems possibly a bit more realistic. Maybe dyno readings vary a lot? I have no idea what the Japanese figures were (they used to quote "PS", whatever a PS is, and their bikes seemed to have almost double the Brit equivalents, yet somehow manage to go no faster!

I reckon there must be a lot of badly out of tune Brit bikes out there if people are getting figures as low as some quoted above - either that or a lot of dynos are out of tune.

Why are you so surprised at the low HP of Triumphs ? It's not like they are fireballs of top speed and acceleration..The Trident is the fast Triumph... grin


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796241 01/22/20 1:24 am
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HIlbilly, Speaking of Tridents We ran a few back to back at the british rally one day .
Stock with Velocity stacks, and hooker header, open megaphone . 49 hP
Stock with 26 Mm flatslides, and hooker header with cone muffler 53
BONE stock air box and mufflers.................................. 52

now the kicker is the bone stock bike, made 10 yes 10 more in the midrange!!!!!

I quit worrying about the numbers unless its back to back, and you make a change.

Tiger, Its funny all the bikes in the UK make more power!!! i have never understood that !!

Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Tigernuts] #796260 01/22/20 7:06 am
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Originally Posted by Tigernuts
35 bhp max! That seems utterly feeble if you don;t mind me saying so. There must be a good reason for such a low power output. Classic Bike magazine tested two Commandos a few years ago (I think it was an 850 and a 750). Both came out on the dyno with pathetic figures, but both were very probably badly put together. The Combat 750 was rated at 60bhp and even given a bit of artistic license by the manufacturer, the true figure for an off the shelf example can;t have been far below that. And a really good 750 twin Triumph feels pretty similar to a Commando. But one with 35 BHP would feel more like some sort of Honda!


It’s not exactly difficult to lose a few horsepower when you throw an engine together in the shed!

For perspective, Triumph claimed 42 bhp at the crank, for the first T110. A measured 35 bhp at a roller under the wheel isn’t madly inconsistent with an optimistically claimed 42 at the crank.

The fact that Triumph claimed even more bhp for later bikes that didn’t go any faster doesn’t change what you measure.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: JakeH] #796284 01/22/20 2:25 pm
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Originally Posted by JakeH


Tiger, Its funny all the bikes in the UK make more power!!! i have never understood that !!

Except for the Triumphs with speeds measured by certified equipment...... grin


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796292 01/22/20 4:43 pm
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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Originally Posted by Tigernuts
15% off 50bhp + 7.5 = 42.5 at the wheel. That seems possibly a bit more realistic. Maybe dyno readings vary a lot? I have no idea what the Japanese figures were (they used to quote "PS", whatever a PS is, and their bikes seemed to have almost double the Brit equivalents, yet somehow manage to go no faster!

I reckon there must be a lot of badly out of tune Brit bikes out there if people are getting figures as low as some quoted above - either that or a lot of dynos are out of tune.

Why are you so surprised at the low HP of Triumphs ? It's not like they are fireballs of top speed and acceleration..The Trident is the fast Triumph... grin


True about the Trident, when working at a Honda/Triumph dealership in late '60's early '70's, when a potential customer wanted a test ride we would usually follow on our next fastest bike, in the case of the Honda CB750 we would chase on our Trident as it was faster on top end...I don't remember about acceleration but no one ever got away.

From dyno runs reported in the past from owners a good Bonneville would make around 35 hp, so not surprised by above posts.

Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796306 01/22/20 6:55 pm
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OK folks, I'll give up arguing, but not before saying that well tuned near-stock T140s and Commandos could, 'back in the day' out perform Jap bikes with supposedly much more power (whether PS or BHP figures were used). A Z1000 with (I'm going by memory from a long time ago here) a claimed 75+bhp ought to leave a Commando 750 (60bhp according to bike mags of the time) standing. But acceleration-wise, it was the other way round and top speed-wise, I was only overtaken, on a dead straight bit of motorway by the Z1000 rider crouching down to gain an extra tiny bit of speed (my Commando had clip-ons so I was already down there). And my T140V would easily outperform Kettles, Z650s, CB750s etc. I seem to recall the Z650's power output was claimed to be something over 60ps or HP. Not sure about the others but they were definitely way higher than the T140's claimed 50.


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Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Tigernuts] #796310 01/22/20 7:20 pm
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Originally Posted by Tigernuts
OK folks, I'll give up arguing, but not before saying that well tuned near-stock T140s and Commandos could, 'back in the day' out perform Jap bikes with supposedly much more power (whether PS or BHP figures were used). A Z1000 with (I'm going by memory from a long time ago here) a claimed 75+bhp ought to leave a Commando 750 (60bhp according to bike mags of the time) standing. But acceleration-wise, it was the other way round and top speed-wise, I was only overtaken, on a dead straight bit of motorway by the Z1000 rider crouching down to gain an extra tiny bit of speed (my Commando had clip-ons so I was already down there). And my T140V would easily outperform Kettles, Z650s, CB750s etc. I seem to recall the Z650's power output was claimed to be something over 60ps or HP. Not sure about the others but they were definitely way higher than the T140's claimed 50.

Before I tuned it my Morgo kitted 71 Bonnie would outrun the bikes you mention, and my friend's XS11 would only just walk away from me. Uphill with passengers and luggage I stayed on his tail all the way.
Yes they could be fast but when the new wave of superbikes came in the early 80s it was game over. The GPZ900 was fearfully fast! I tuned my Bonnie the best I could and could still run away in the twisties, but I couldn't match them for speed. Had lots of fun trying though!

SR

Re: Who here has checked 750 intake cam timing? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #796351 01/23/20 2:33 am
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...what kind of comparison is that? I say that British motorcycles did it very good and was the fastest and only with two cylinders (except the tridents) outdated technology and the Japanese needed a car 4 cylinder engine with plenty of everything to have a faster bike. Still now is this way. There is no any twin faster than a Triumph right now.
But is not only about how fast; British bikes were and still are the ones with the best quality in all the details.
This is a forum for old bikes so compare old whatever, like HD, Ducati, Honda, etc with Triumph. Check the welding, check the quality of the mudguards, details and overall design, that was all copied from the British bikes.
Still do not know how a HD is so expensive at least here; is like a tractor quality. Yes, looks pretty good for a chopper due to is a bit large in comparison but nothing more.

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