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Re: A65 bearings yet again...
Stein Roger #795041 01/07/20 1:03 am
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Doesn't the A65 have a similar breather set up on the end of the cam?


1966 BSA Lightning
(2) 1967 Triumph "Choppa"s
1974 Indian ME125
1960 Harley Servi-Car
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Re: A65 bearings yet again...
DMadigan #795058 01/07/20 8:38 am
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Originally Posted by DMadigan
"The natural thrust of these engines is definitely toward the worm driven oil pump" - maybe a case for a spur gear drive oil pump?
Metric roller bearings are available with a separate thrust collar which serves as a second lip on the inner race. Since the single lip on the inner race already provides for the thrust in the drive direction I do not see why the inner race cannot be reversed (lip toward crank) and a thrust collar used on the sprocket side to have the roller bearing take both thrust loads. Solve the whole problem of shimming the crank just as the ball bearing did.
I do not know of any manufacturer that makes them for imperial bearings but it would not be difficult.
One advantage of the Triumph wheeze pump on the camshaft is that it removes any loads on the crank or flex effects on the pump.

The ca 1980 upgraded metric size Triumph T140/TR7 timing side bearing is a good example of what you propose David. I think it has proven satisfactory in service by now.
I often wonder why the Norton fraternity won't use this, but persists with a single lip outer either side. Theirs are still called "Superblends", though there's no such thing.
How's that for clever marketing, a standard roller bearing with a catchy name that still sells nearly 50 years on! clap

The Triumph wheeze pump may not be an engineering marvel, with any number of flaws, but in 45 years with these bikes they haven't given me much trouble, so I don't worry anymore. ohno

SR

Re: A65 bearings yet again...
Allan G #795069 01/07/20 12:45 pm
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Originally Posted by Allan Gill
Originally Posted by Arnstein

(Quote) "Hardly, Ive had RHP rollers that are loose on the drive shaft after 3000 miles, the RHP ball bearing I have fitted currently is so far is outlasting that. Not saying that the ball is better than the roller but more likely the bearing not made to suitable specification."



Mr. Gill, are you saying that the rollerbearing came loose on the shaft because it is a roller...and that a ballbearing will not?! To be sure any bearing, roller or ball, not getting loose on a shaft an interference fit is needed, and sometimes a torqued nut, as on A65,

And, as fa as I know the early ballbearing motors did no have any thrust washer. because of the ballbearing it is of course not needed.


That’s not what I said, I didn’t say the bearing id became slack because it’s a roller. What I said was it is probably the quality of the inner cage. What I was pointing out is that the ball bearing is perfectly fine, it probably wouldn’t last in your 800/850 motor and I wouldn’t use a ball bearing on my 823 either. There is also no chance the nut came loose on the end of my crank, but thank you for your suggestion.

I had seen a wrongly pictured item for the TS bush, it was probably off an A10 maybe? It appears to have the same cutaways as the later bushes do, looking at the parts books. Still a ball bearing can walk if there is too much end float. You set the end float of the crank against that Bush face and the ball bearing won’t walk. The oil film is probably just enough in this case, unlike the roller where it will constantly kiss the thrust washer or the lip of the outer cage.






WHY is my answer to mr. Gill deleted? Was it because I pointed out that his sentence.. "what I said was it is probably the quality of the inner cage".. is not to be found in his message (see quote)


Arnstein

BSA Spitfire MK3.800cc (also engine 850cc 90degree)
Honda CB450T -71
Laverda RGS 1130cc -85
Ducati 1098 -08
Re: A65 bearings yet again...
Arnstein #795079 01/07/20 5:12 pm
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(quote) I had seen a wrongly pictured item for the TS bush, it was probably off an A10 maybe? It appears to have the same cutaways as the later bushes do, looking at the parts books. Still a ball bearing can walk if there is too much end float. You set the end float of the crank against that Bush face and the ball bearing won’t walk. The oil film is probably just enough in this case, unlike the roller where it will constantly kiss the thrust washer or the lip of the outer cage. [/quote]




Mr. Gill, the bearing in a crankcase will not come loose and walk if the interference fit is as it should be, nothing to do with the endfloat. If it comes loose, a bush has to be machined into the c.case for a proper interference fit. The oilpump worm gear pull is not that strong. I have seen TS combination bearings needle / ball loose its interference fit in the c.case and walked the other way ( the ballbearing part is what keeps the crank from wandering).



AND, still wondering why my yesterdays answer to Mr Gill is deleted.


Arnstein

BSA Spitfire MK3.800cc (also engine 850cc 90degree)
Honda CB450T -71
Laverda RGS 1130cc -85
Ducati 1098 -08
Re: A65 bearings yet again...
Stein Roger #795097 01/07/20 8:51 pm
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Amazon lists the MRJA 1 1/8 bearing for $612.36 + $7.95 for shipping, Motion Industries $276.91, 123Bearing $94.88. CBS $89.95. At least that is somewhat reasonable.
Metric bearings are more readily available than Imperial.
Instead of using the MRJA bearing an NJ306 bearing can be used with a little rework of the cases and crank.
MRJA NJ306
2.8125" 2.8346" (72mm)
1.1250" 1.1811" (30mm)
0.8125" 0.748" (19mm)

Any competent crank shop can build up the drive side and machine shop can bore the case. Add the HJ306 thrust collar and the end float is taken care of. Still have to shim the crank to centre in the cases.
The 0.132" added width of the HJ306 + NJ306 would be taken out of the sprocket spacer.

Re: A65 bearings yet again...
DMadigan #795099 01/07/20 9:08 pm
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If you use an A10 crank the drive side is already 30mm so you just need to open up the case to suit the 72mm O/D. This gives the option of using the NJ306E Norton superblends as well. I wish I had thought of this when I put an A10 crank in my A70. eek


1957 BSA A10 Spitfire
1971 BSA A65 Firebird
1971 BSA A70 Lightning
1975 Norton Commando
1961 Norton 99
Re: A65 bearings yet again...
Servodyne #795104 01/07/20 9:42 pm
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Originally Posted by Servodyne
If you use an A10 crank the drive side is already 30mm so you just need to open up the case to suit the 72mm O/D. This gives the option of using the NJ306E Norton superblends as well. I wish I had thought of this when I put an A10 crank in my A70. eek



I thought you found an A70 crank in the end? The work I am having done on mine is similar to the work you did on yours, although I’m not modifying the cases for the timing side and keeping the standard shim arrangement.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: A65 bearings yet again...
Stein Roger #795108 01/07/20 10:24 pm
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I did, but later found out the drive side had twisted at the end of the splines and had bent the shaft. It must have been one hell of a seize up, probably due to a chain snapping. I was a bit disappointed with the BSA chap that I bought it off as he probably knew it was bent. Luckily it only cost me £100.
The A70 timing side has the standard double thrust washer set up so the cases are not modified.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


1957 BSA A10 Spitfire
1971 BSA A65 Firebird
1971 BSA A70 Lightning
1975 Norton Commando
1961 Norton 99
Re: A65 bearings yet again...
Stein Roger #795109 01/07/20 10:32 pm
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The NJ306 is the the type i used with a norton crank. (super-nonsense type)
From memory the bearing is a little narrower. On one set of cases we just turned the
bearing OD down with a ceramic tool as it was easier than milling/boring. Both
setups were ok.

The fact that the drive side ball race or in fact any bearing in the drive side
trying to control end-float will be subjected to the thrust of the engine may
may cause the bearing to move when the cases are hot. This is recognised
by nortons and some triumph owners. In the case of the A65, it is prudent
to have an internal shim/spacer to restrict this action to a few thou. Certainly
on the ball race versions as there is a fairly large gap left with no thrust washer.
An external bearing controlling thrust is the overall best way though as it will
also help with stiffening up the crank's drive side flexure.
Why the brit manufacturers didn't go to metric bearings before they did seems
stupid as the metrics were half the cost apart from more available.

Re: A65 bearings yet again...
Servodyne #795111 01/07/20 10:40 pm
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That crank would stand rebuilding and machining these days.
Mind you, you could probably get the 1mm stuck on your A10 crank for
the same cost.

Re: A65 bearings yet again...
NickL #795115 01/07/20 10:51 pm
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Originally Posted by NickL
That crank would stand rebuilding and machining these days.

I may pursue that cheers. There must be someone in the UK that undertakes that type of work as it would be a shame to bin it.


1957 BSA A10 Spitfire
1971 BSA A65 Firebird
1971 BSA A70 Lightning
1975 Norton Commando
1961 Norton 99
Re: A65 bearings yet again...
Stein Roger #795121 01/07/20 11:23 pm
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Is that TP engraved on the DS flywheel about 7 o clock?
Trying to imagine how to straighten it, would be a quite a one off fixture to hold big ends and TS true while the bend was pressed out.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: A65 bearings yet again...
Stein Roger #795125 01/07/20 11:53 pm
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Leave it as is, metal spray it all and re-machine all
you would never straighten that out effectively, it would
always want to want to re-form. I was charged quite a
sum once by a machine shop that 'straightened' a crank
of mine, (i didn't ask them to, i just wanted the TS journal
ground round) They showed me it running with a dti and
yes they had it spot on. When i stripped the motor next, i
measured it/ran it in the lathe, sure enough it was the same
few thou or so out that it was originally. I just ran it with buttons
rather than circlips in the pistons and it was fine. It tended to
spit one clip out or dig it into the piston with them. I suppose
some form of heat treatment may have sorted it but it worked
for me with buttons until i got another crank.

Last edited by NickL; 01/08/20 1:01 am.
Re: A65 bearings yet again...
Stein Roger #795132 01/08/20 12:31 am
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I wonder how long the scaffolding pole would need to be to get that straight, in a hypothetical desert island situation with infinite scaffolding available.
Yeah metal spraying, , i always wondered about that, dont hear about so much now, it was quite the thing in the 70s.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: A65 bearings yet again...
Stein Roger #795136 01/08/20 12:43 am
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Sounds like a right bugger servodyne. If you ever want to sell it let me know. The belt drive pulls I have fits fine on my A10 crank, but is much tighter on my A65 crank, probably worn by the same cause, it’s hard to tell from the photo how far out of straight the shaft is.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: A65 bearings yet again...
DMadigan #795138 01/08/20 12:53 am
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Originally Posted by DMadigan
Amazon lists the MRJA 1 1/8 bearing for $612.36 + $7.95 for shipping, Motion Industries $276.91, 123Bearing $94.88. CBS $89.95. At least that is somewhat reasonable.
Metric bearings are more readily available than Imperial.
Instead of using the MRJA bearing an NJ306 bearing can be used with a little rework of the cases and crank.
MRJA NJ306
2.8125" 2.8346" (72mm)
1.1250" 1.1811" (30mm)
0.8125" 0.748" (19mm)

Any competent crank shop can build up the drive side and machine shop can bore the case. Add the HJ306 thrust collar and the end float is taken care of. Still have to shim the crank to centre in the cases.
The 0.132" added width of the HJ306 + NJ306 would be taken out of the sprocket spacer.


Hi Dave, would 612$ for a bearing not be for a
Minimum order of 10? I bought mine from SRM, believing I would get the correct C clearance rating SRM RHP MRJA 1 1/8 link


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: A65 bearings yet again...
gavin eisler #795139 01/08/20 12:59 am
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
I wonder how long the scaffolding pole would need to be to get that straight, in a hypothetical desert island situation with infinite scaffolding available.
Yeah metal spraying, , i always wondered about that, dont hear about so much now, it was quite the thing in the 70s.


Metal spray, Spiral weld etc etc. Re-make/build up the primary main shaft and re-machine it.
There's a few firms here that could do it. You'd never bend it back to true again, or if you
did it would tend to re-bend in use. Maybe you could forge it straight but then it would
have to be built up and re-machined anyway.

Re: A65 bearings yet again...
Stein Roger #795140 01/08/20 1:13 am
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Quote.
There must be someone in the UK that undertakes that type of work as it would be a shame to bin it.


If you want a profit on your 100 quid investment, just let me know..................

Re: A65 bearings yet again...
Stein Roger #795142 01/08/20 2:05 am
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No, quantity 1
https://www.amazon.com/RHP-Bearings-NSK-MRJA-1-1/dp/B07DG23R4S
Amazon has some really stupid prices when it comes to bearings. Same when sourcing the 7203-2RS angular bearing for the triple clutch:
https://www.amazon.com/Consolidated-Bearing-ANGULAR-CONTACT-BEARING/dp/B01GPLTEMW ($77.63 + shipping)
Or:
https://www.amazon.com/FAG-Schaeffler-7203-B-2RS-TVP-Angular-Contact/dp/B07DJ56WYR ($201.58 + shipping)
BearingsDirect has them for $9.95

Re: A65 bearings yet again...
Allan G #795153 01/08/20 10:20 am
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Originally Posted by Allan Gill
Sounds like a right bugger servodyne. If you ever want to sell it let me know. The belt drive pulls I have fits fine on my A10 crank, but is much tighter on my A65 crank, probably worn by the same cause, it’s hard to tell from the photo how far out of straight the shaft is.

It's about 13 thou on the alternator journal, but it has other issues which is why I got it for 100 quid. No flywheel, but I was intending to modify a late A65 one with scalloped sides around the big ends and the timing side had been modified to end feed. Unfortunately the LH threads had been removed so that a lock nut could't be fitted and the timing side journal machined down to 1.354". The plain spigot at the end seems to be a separate piece that has been driven into the end of the crank.
I had thought of using a needle roller inner with a 1.5" o/d with oil holes ground through it and retaining the original A70 bush and two thrust washer set up with end feed, as described by Arnstein earlier, but it was not to be.
My A10 crank is working fine so far with over a 1000 miles on it so I'm not in any rush to tear it down.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


1957 BSA A10 Spitfire
1971 BSA A65 Firebird
1971 BSA A70 Lightning
1975 Norton Commando
1961 Norton 99
Re: A65 bearings yet again...
Stein Roger #795160 01/08/20 11:34 am
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I could still make some use out of it, I bought some A10 rods to go with a set of Ed Vs very high compression pistons, I intended to build a long rod A65 motor, I could always make it a 750, if your willing to sell it?


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: A65 bearings yet again...
Stein Roger #795170 01/08/20 2:35 pm
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I am not trying to be a smart azz or sound like a dumb azz with the question/comments I am about to pose.....

I have been screwing with these engines for a long time....too long the way I feel today.

In all the years I have screwed around with these engines, I have seen issues with people shimming them too tight, not tight enough, TS bearing clearance wrong, etc. But not once, I have dealt with an engine that had issues with the crank due to oil pump thrust.

I am not saying there is not some factor as driving the oil pump does require a small amount of power. But the minute flow that is available at hopefully 50 PSI on a good day, uses a minute amount of power. Any thrust you get from the oil pump drive is going to require some power when you have a very heavy crank that is walking about inside the engine due to 2 main bearings instead of 3, the effect of firing forces, suction forces, pumping forces through the exhaust, etc.

And lets not forget the primary chain. The triplex chain used on an A65 is heavy and is capable of putting fairly significant side loading on the crank, especially if care is not exercised setting up primary alignment. I have seen far more issues on engines I have had tp get my fingers into due to primary chain misalignment then I have ever seen on the opposite side from oil pump.

I just don't see oil pump thrust being an issue. Lack of end play will play h#ll with the thrust washer or shoulder, but I have not personally seen that from the oil pump alone.


Never underestimate the human ability to elevate stupid to a whole new level!.
Re: A65 bearings yet again...
Allan G #795179 01/08/20 5:48 pm
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Originally Posted by Allan Gill
I could still make some use out of it, I bought some A10 rods to go with a set of Ed Vs very high compression pistons, I intended to build a long rod A65 motor, I could always make it a 750, if your willing to sell it?

Hi Allan. I'm not quite at a position where I want to sell it, but I'll certainly keep you in mind.
Cheers Jim


1957 BSA A10 Spitfire
1971 BSA A65 Firebird
1971 BSA A70 Lightning
1975 Norton Commando
1961 Norton 99
Re: A65 bearings yet again...
Rich B #795184 01/08/20 7:15 pm
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Originally Posted by Rich B


And lets not forget the primary chain. The triplex chain used on an A65 is heavy and is capable of putting fairly significant side loading on the crank, especially if care is not exercised setting up primary alignment. I have seen far more issues on engines I have had tp get my fingers into due to primary chain misalignment then I have ever seen on the opposite side from oil pump.

I just don't see oil pump thrust being an issue. Lack of end play will play h#ll with the thrust washer or shoulder, but I have not personally seen that from the oil pump alone.


Good point about the primary chain alignment. Another factor on the primary drive is flex on the crank and gearbox shafts, the pull on the chain will try to pull the ends of the shafts towards each other pulling the sprockets out of line. The triplex chain is very rigid, any mis alignment puts massive loads on the shafts.
People racing tridents and R3s in the early days suffered crank breakages, a common upgrade was to change the triplex chain to two single chains on the outer sprocket rings, this gave more flexibility when things started squirming around


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Re: A65 bearings yet again...
Rich B #795187 01/08/20 7:51 pm
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Originally Posted by Rich B

I just don't see oil pump thrust being an issue. Lack of end play will play h#ll with the thrust washer or shoulder, but I have not personally seen that from the oil pump alone.

Rich, what kind of catastrophe occurs due to lack of end play? And you mention a "shoulder". Could you clarify where that is?
I'm at that point in my assembly and trying to get it as right as it can be. Crank turns smooths and I'm pretty sure I don't have too much endplay.
Thanks.


1966 BSA Lightning
(2) 1967 Triumph "Choppa"s
1974 Indian ME125
1960 Harley Servi-Car
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