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Re: A65 bearings yet again... [Re: Stein Roger] #794737 01/04/20 1:17 am
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It's little more than a hobby for me Gavin, but i've got a couple of guys who can machine stuff well
and i have some experience with the a65's so as a combination it works. As long as blokes don't
want the engine in 20 minutes and can stand dealing with this obnoxious old ghit, i'll do 'em.

David's oil pump used the inner of a suzuki pump and was costed out at less than the *** one.
The relief side on the bike would have needed beefing up to cope as the pump was miles more efficient.
A bleed to the rockers etc. A proper job, not just a copy of the original.
I'm saying this in the hope that he will resurrect the project and start making 'em.

As for the HD pump, of course it's bigger, its American. Is it better though?????



Last edited by NickL; 01/04/20 1:22 am.
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Re: A65 bearings yet again... [Re: Stein Roger] #794738 01/04/20 1:30 am
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A bigger pump would be the ticket, but ,its a tight space.
For me its been a lifetime, crashed my Tbolt in 79, had the devi ever since 81 , served me well, the t bolt had a fucked TS bush, still ran fine till the end. nobody cared about oil pressure back then, it either ran or it didnt.
I think what kills A65s is not running, cold starts, bad timing and museuming if thats a word, they need ridden to keep working.
And
Happy New Year,


Last edited by gavin eisler; 01/04/20 1:38 am.

71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
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Re: A65 bearings yet again... [Re: Stein Roger] #794740 01/04/20 1:53 am
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Roughly what does it cost to have an end feed conversion done?
Not that I'm considering it on the current bike. I'd spend on a Newby belt drive first.


1966 BSA Lightning
(2) 1967 Triumph "Choppa"s
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Re: A65 bearings yet again... [Re: gavin eisler] #794741 01/04/20 1:58 am
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A better design may be the answer rather than a bigger pump.
David's device was driven at 50% engine speed rather than 33%. i think.
The rotors were of the Gerotor type rather than gears etc.
The pump doesn't have to be bigger to be far better. (don't just think American!)

Re: A65 bearings yet again... [Re: Nick H] #794742 01/04/20 2:00 am
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Originally Posted by Nick H
Roughly what does it cost to have an end feed conversion done?
Not that I'm considering it on the current bike. I'd spend on a Newby belt drive first.


Talk to EV Engineering if you're in the 'states.

Re: A65 bearings yet again... [Re: Stein Roger] #794744 01/04/20 2:13 am
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About a grand for the end feed last time I looked UK, more like two once other stuff gets added.

, trying not to think Murkin, agreed something neater than a Buell pimp would be do able.


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Re: A65 bearings yet again... [Re: Stein Roger] #794750 01/04/20 2:35 am
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Blimey,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, i will have to revise my prices.
I'm still charging 500 Guineas. (mind you, i insist on the gold coins.)

Re: A65 bearings yet again... [Re: Stein Roger] #794759 01/04/20 10:26 am
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How does that sound kommando?


I have never owned an A65, my list is based on general Brit Twins plus a few pointers from the A65 ie BSA/Vandervell's odd decision to use whitemetal.

The end feed option is attractive, it eliminates all the oil loss from the timing bush and redirects it to the big ends without needing an up-rated pump, but like the bush it replaces its at the margins of the design parameters unlike the full ball/roller bearings used on the Norton and Triumphs. Norton never used a timing bush, Triumphs did initially on the Unit 350/500 and took the derision to change it to a ball bearing 68/69, BSA did the same change on the Unit singles in 66 but never on the A65.

Re: A65 bearings yet again... [Re: Stein Roger] #794760 01/04/20 10:43 am
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Rich B, thanks for the info on OPRV and oil-ways. This is a genuine 70 with the raised engine no pad with BSA embossed on it. I'll have a look when I pop in maybe later today.

I too think end feed and a rolling element bearing is better. Triumph and Norton rarely have these particular issues, except on the C-series Triumphs. They displayed some of the same problems with wear as the A65, but kept their ball bearing DS, so never had the axial play problems. As we know, Triumph still felt forced to to something about it.
However, the cost of such conversions is an obstacle for most owners, most of whom rides their P&J infrequently.
And yes I agree, that's a big factor too. "Museuming", I like it :-)
As a side comment; triples displays much of the same as the A65, though to a lesser degree. As we know, the crank is fed in the exact same way as the A65, only through two plain bearings. These are in my experience prone to premature wear too, but can be changed with the engine still in the frame. I did mine when I overhauled the top end. The bearing material was worn away completely.
Some say nitriding the journals will add life to both journal and bearing. I don't know. That's one for kommando I think.

Pump size... engineers knows the requirements and will size the pumps accordingly, with a reserve. The A65 wasn't the first plain bearing motor ever built and the knowledge were there, tables available and expertise to draw on. It's when the quality of the pumps, alignment of oil ways, well the precision of everything, deteriorates, the biggest oil pumps won't save an engine.
The central flywheel cranks will whip a bit, and worse with increasing speed. I think my friend (Chief Engineer by profession) may have a point when he says an A65 should run low compression pistons, be kept over 3000 rpm for proper oil flow, and under 5000 for longevity. But where's the fun in that?

Oils and filters are important. Most old bikes I know of seems to run on 20-50, as I indeed use to recommend.
Like kommando, I did run my Trident on 10-60 synth until it burned it off so quick I couldn't afford it.
I will revert to this know that I have normal oil consumption, in the light of kommando's experience. If I ran an A65 I'd seriously consider the same.
"Museuming" will eventually let the oil film dry up and oxidize, which is a bad thing. Except for the fact that an A65, or most Brit bikes in fact, will fill their cases with oil, which is good for the crank, less so for the cylinders and top end. Wear will happen, and steel fragments will contaminate the oil, so a proper oil filtering system is vital. Many hold the opinion that frequent oil changes will suffice. On a frequently used bike, maybe, but why not use a proper filtration system anyway.

I've learnt a lot from you guys. Thanks to each and everyone of you!

SR

PS. kommando replied as I was writing that. Thanks! Which 10-60 oil is it you use?

Last edited by Stein Roger; 01/04/20 10:47 am.
Re: A65 bearings yet again... [Re: Stein Roger] #794761 01/04/20 11:32 am
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This is the one, not checked the zinc content for camshaft/follower protection but you can get that separately to add if required.

http://www.millersoils.co.uk/products/0/142

CFS 10W60

Quote
Some say nitriding the journals will add life to both journal and bearing. I don't know. That's one for kommando I think.


As long as the shell bearings last or you catch their failure early then the crank journal life will typically be doubled.

Re: A65 bearings yet again... [Re: Stein Roger] #794767 01/04/20 2:00 pm
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Thanks again kommando.

I'm not worried over ZDDP content. Only low friction, fuel saving, catalytic converter friendly types of 0-30 or less do have a lower content, around 800 ppm I believe.
Thicker oils, like 15-40 and up still contain anywhere from 1000 to 1200 ppm. Over 1200 isn't advisable, and I would never add ZDDP to any oil unless I knew the exact specs of both oil and additive.
I know it has been discussed at length on AccessNorton, along with scar tests and such, you may have followed this closer than I did. I don't regard scar tests on motor oils as relevant though, it's like testing a mouse trap with an elephant.

I'm sure the CFS 10W60 vastly exceeds any requirements a sound old Brit Bike would have. I don't know of any stockists around here, but I'll have a look.

SR


Last edited by Stein Roger; 01/04/20 7:09 pm. Reason: Grammar, but probably wrong anyway.
Re: A65 bearings yet again... [Re: Stein Roger] #794797 01/04/20 9:58 pm
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The triple does not have the oil feed problem of the A65 because it has a four bearing crank. An A65 crank whips from the offset weight in the middle with bearings spaced far apart on either side. The whipping tilts the crank in the bearing which makes supporting the oil film across the bearing near impossible.
Alternatives are moving the counterbalance to the outer webs where the bearings are or support the crank in the middle. End feeding the crank and using a needle bearing is a half way measure. NTN gives an inclination tolerance of 1/2000 for a radial needle bearing (pg A39 http://www.ntnamericas.com/en/websi...edle_roller_bearings_2300-vii_lowres.pdf). That is 0.0005" for a 1" bearing.
The stock setup would last longer with more oil to compensate for the loss.
According to a GM study on main bearing caps, the main cap shells should not be grooved. There is an increase in the load per area across the two shell lands compared to a ungrooved shell. No [***] Ollie. There is less surface area with a groove on same width bearings. But oil has to be fed into the crank and having half the feed time closed off disrupts the flow to the rods. Maybe GM did not take that aspect into account.

Re: A65 bearings yet again... [Re: Stein Roger] #794798 01/04/20 10:53 pm
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Seem to remember seeing some main bearings with grooves on the back, this allowed the oil to still flow to big ends but stay full width bearing material.

Re: A65 bearings yet again... [Re: Stein Roger] #794807 01/04/20 11:56 pm
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So all the best advice for running an a65 comes from people who've never owned or run one eh?
You lot should go into politics.

Sorry chaps but that's how it's looking.

Re: A65 bearings yet again... [Re: Stein Roger] #794813 01/05/20 1:37 am
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what every a65 really needs is
oil dippers on the rod caps .
.

Re: A65 bearings yet again... [Re: quinten] #794829 01/05/20 8:31 am
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Originally Posted by quinten
.
what every a65 really needs is
oil dippers on the rod caps .
.

Another highly experienced A65 owner i suppose????
We've heard 'em all me old cock. Like the ones from the blokes that finished behind me on the the track, and there were plenty of them.
Besides that the lower end modifications required to fit scoops and babbitts on these is harder than an end feed.

Re: A65 bearings yet again... [Re: Stein Roger] #794831 01/05/20 10:00 am
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There’s a lot of mention about poor oil flow to the drive side journal because of oil holes etc but no one has yet mentioned the sludge trap that gets plugged restricting oil flow to the drive side journal.


beerchug
Re: A65 bearings yet again... [Re: Stein Roger] #794833 01/05/20 10:19 am
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Quote
So all the best advice for running an a65 comes from people who've never owned or run one eh?


NickL, I don't run the washing machine, tumble dryer or the dishwasher in the house, do you think I can get out of repairing them using that excuse wink

Re: A65 bearings yet again... [Re: NickL] #794835 01/05/20 11:30 am
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Originally Posted by NickL
So all the best advice for running an a65 comes from people who've never owned or run one eh?
You lot should go into politics.

Sorry chaps but that's how it's looking.

Fresh perspective and all that...?

David Madigan's info on grooved bearings is interesting, and we triple owners have looked at the main shells many a time wishing we could dispense with the groove.
But we can't..
On an A65 however, converting to end feed would let you run without the groove, and is something we have discussed.

SR

Re: A65 bearings yet again... [Re: Stein Roger] #794843 01/05/20 12:44 pm
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There's a groove on the A65 con rod bearing? Where?


1966 BSA Lightning
(2) 1967 Triumph "Choppa"s
1974 Indian ME125
Re: A65 bearings yet again... [Re: Stein Roger] #794850 01/05/20 1:03 pm
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There's a groove on the A65 con rod bearing? Where?


No there is no groove, the groove was referred to in context of the Triumph/BSA triple engine has main bearings and they have grooves.

Quote
The triple does not have the oil feed problem of the A65 because it has a four bearing crank.


[Linked Image from i.ebayimg.com]

The grooves are to allow the oil to move from the oilways in the crankcase into the crank and then into the big ends through oil galleys drilled into the crank.

Re: A65 bearings yet again... [Re: Stein Roger] #794852 01/05/20 1:44 pm
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Stein Roger, as you probably know there are some that has converted a65 to end feed plain bearing using a needle bearing innerring. This way you will get rid of the groove in the shaft and possibly get approx 1/5 more bearing areal. The Guzzi 850 motor has almost identical dimensions (only a few mm longer) as the a65 on the main bearing where the oil is entering and the same groove in the shaft. Never heard of problems with the Guzzis with its short and sturdy crank, so the flexing and oil supply in the a65 is surely to blame.
In my end feed conversioned cranks I use needle bearing NKS 40 (40x55x22 which sits in a thin wall steel sleeve machined into the c.case) with innerring 32x40 which works excellent being the biggest bearing that can be put in there without breaking into the oil channels. A bearing outside the alternator is of course needed for locating the crank axially.

Re: A65 bearings yet again... [Re: Nick H] #794854 01/05/20 2:06 pm
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Originally Posted by Nick H
There's a groove on the A65 con rod bearing? Where?

Sorry Nick, I was comparing the triple mains and the A65 TS main, but kommando covered that.

David Madigan's comment is valid, the triple crank doesn't whip, but the triples still run their plain mains faster than you'd expect. Something is borderline here, whether it's the bearing line, assembly technique, lubrication, or what have you. It's not uncommon to see worn mains while the big end journals measure up fine. Hence the comparison with the A65 TS main.

I'll be fitting a gauge to my Trident to monitor wear, and maybe change to Millers oil. I've had a look at the type kommando use, it'a a blend of 3 esters and PAO.
This makes it a "true" synthetic, unlike Castrol. Nothing against Castrol, they have served me well, but perhaps the extra protection possibly offered by a true synthetic is just what it takes.
ZDDP is in the 1000-1200 ppm range, which is nice for cams and followers.

I've made contact with a local supplier of Millers, and he seems to know his stuff. Replying to queries on the weekend suggests he's a gearhead too... laughing

But I've side railed myself. Fixing the underlying causes of premature wear and failures is most important, and I thank you all for your input!
I concede that those of you that have actually made these things last, and have proved it too, are the ones I listen the most to.
Like you NickL, you puffed a little back there, but I do take your comments to heart, also in the recent axial play thread! beerchug

SR

Re: A65 bearings yet again... [Re: Arnstein] #794855 01/05/20 2:34 pm
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Originally Posted by Arnstein
Stein Roger, as you probably know there are some that has converted a65 to end feed plain bearing using a needle bearing innerring. This way you will get rid of the groove in the shaft and possibly get approx 1/5 more bearing areal. The Guzzi 850 motor has almost identical dimensions (only a few mm longer) as the a65 on the main bearing where the oil is entering and the same groove in the shaft. Never heard of problems with the Guzzis with its short and sturdy crank, so the flexing and oil supply in the a65 is surely to blame.
In my end feed conversioned cranks I use needle bearing NKS 40 (40x55x22 which sits in a thin wall steel sleeve machined into the c.case) with innerring 32x40 which works excellent being the biggest bearing that can be put in there without breaking into the oil channels. A bearing outside the alternator is of course needed for locating the crank axially.

Arnstein, no I didn't know how you did the end feed conversion, but it makes perfect sense. I had forgotten that on an A65 the groove is in the journal, on a C series 500 Triumph the journal is plain and the bearing is grooved. Same results though.
I did know about the outrigger bearing you use on the DS, but it takes it all to a level I'm not even close to, I'm not a toolmaker... My friend the Chief could do it, but I don't think he's interested.
On a standard engine, would you consider a ball bearing to be strong enough on the DS?

SR

Re: A65 bearings yet again... [Re: Stein Roger] #794862 01/05/20 4:11 pm
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I think maybe the simplest / cheapest way to make the A65 more dependable regarding crank bearings would be ,as said, to use an innerring (with lubrication holes) meant for needlebearing on the t s together with the original type of steel capped bush and then end feed the crank the easiest way https://1drv.ms/u/s!AsKcYdC1qRK7jQjhEcOLyG9e3Q4n?e=seGmG1
Or, for to avoid bearing outside alternator, do as SRM does and machine in the combination bearing NKIB 5907. I never used the C3 type only the ordinary one but with a retaining ring and the usual interference fit.

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