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Primary Chain Oiler Tube #792008 12/04/19 2:49 am
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TrophyGuy Offline OP
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The black plastic tube in my primary chaincase is broken (1970 TR6C). Does this thing do anything critical? Looks to me like it tries to direct oil from a tray on the top of the chaincase to the forward sprocket. Maybe it's important, but it seems to me that oil entering the chaincase will get flung everywhere, as it should to keep the clutch plates, chains and sprockets lubricated. I don't want to pull the clutch basket and alternator to fix this silly thing. Is it important?

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Re: Primary Chain Oiler Tube [Re: TrophyGuy] #792014 12/04/19 6:44 am
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tridentt150v Online Content
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No, its pretty much unnecessary. The chain flings oil everywhere anyway. And you honestly don't want your clutch plates oiled...….they are actually a 'dry' clutch. The centrifugal force of the spinning clutch essentially keeps oil out.. Some oil gets in for the back bearings and such, and the plates get this as well, but they don't really need it.

I have lost count of the number of twins I have seen with that tube missing...….and shock horror the primary side was still working fine.

Re: Primary Chain Oiler Tube [Re: TrophyGuy] #792023 12/04/19 9:22 am
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t150 is absolutely right in my opinion. Think of a two-stroke engine, it survives for a long time on less than a mist of oil. Plenty of mist on a 1970 twin!
On older Triumphs, a minimum of oil inside the primary case is required for the chain, but the tube is superfluous even there, in my experience.

SR

Re: Primary Chain Oiler Tube [Re: TrophyGuy] #792037 12/04/19 2:08 pm
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Thanks to both tridentt150v and Stein Roger. Experience counts a lot. As a mechanical engineer I view the oddities of Triumph design as a mystery to be solved. I know these machines were designed in an era where computerized analysis did not exist, but I tend to trust the wealth of experience the factory accumulated from development testing and customer feedback. It's difficult to imagine an engineering department signing off on something that cost money to implement, but did no good. It is a marvel the whole contraption works in harmony as well as it does.

Re: Primary Chain Oiler Tube [Re: TrophyGuy] #792045 12/04/19 4:22 pm
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well, there you have it. although sometimes it works less well than you'd like.


every day you do not take a chance is a day of your life that you will never get back.
Re: Primary Chain Oiler Tube [Re: TrophyGuy] #792048 12/04/19 5:27 pm
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I've always wondered about that tube. My T150 has one, but it's a mystery where the oil comes from.
The parts book for my '72 T120V does not show that tube.
Maybe it's like the tappet oil feed on early triples, something some engineer thought was a good idea and later thought better.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: Primary Chain Oiler Tube [Re: TrophyGuy] #792062 12/04/19 10:15 pm
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Quote
I've always wondered about that tube. My T150 has one, but it's a mystery where the oil comes from.
there is a trough that catches flung oil at the top of the primary chains travel .
the plastic tube , that often disappears if it breaks off , re-directs oil as a second delivery point , to the front sprocket .
a variation of this theme [Linked Image from renold.com]

Quote
The parts book for my '72 T120V does not show that tube.
it's in the 72 book , but easy to miss .

fig.2 , page 12 , part 51 , E11072 , exhaust breather assembly ,
the oil catching trough is part of the breather baffle .
the same part , is shown to the end of 750 production by harris in 1985 .

the oil pipe probably improves chain oiling "enough of a percentage"
that triumph left it in throughout production .
( the primary chain will last longer ) ... longer than what ?
(the chain drive could be more efficient with the second oiling point ) ... somewhat impossible to prove

extra oil is delivered .. right where it needs to be ,
at the front sprocket as it is engaging under load with the chain . ( sounds plausible )

as far as its importance , to many examples work fine without it .
i would renew it "when youre in the area " but I wouldn't make a special trip to fix it .

Re: Primary Chain Oiler Tube [Re: TrophyGuy] #792069 12/04/19 11:22 pm
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I'm doubtful that it had anything to do with addressing a deficiency in primary sprocket/chain oiling.

I'm no expert on the history of units, but I wonder if this appeared about the same time as the breather system changed?

If so, could it be that Triumph were concerned to keep the oil flung by the chain around the clutch from the breather pipe connection?
Then having diverted and collected it, might as well lead it somewhere at least half useful? The plastic pipe does seem half-hearted and cheap, the collector seems more purposeful.

Re: Primary Chain Oiler Tube [Re: koan58] #792076 12/05/19 12:19 am
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Originally Posted by koan58
I'm doubtful that it had anything to do with addressing a deficiency in primary sprocket/chain oiling.

I'm no expert on the history of units, but I wonder if this appeared about the same time as the breather system changed?

If so, could it be that Triumph were concerned to keep the oil flung by the chain around the clutch from the breather pipe connection?
Then having diverted and collected it, might as well lead it somewhere at least half useful? The plastic pipe does seem half-hearted and cheap, the collector seems more purposeful.


I agree, the inside of the primary case is like ww3 when running so the baffle assembly is more to stop excessive migration via the breather than just to collect
oil to redirect to the front sprocket. The assembly appeared when direct venting to the primary came about 69/70 approx.

Re: Primary Chain Oiler Tube [Re: TrophyGuy] #792078 12/05/19 12:23 am
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"If so, could it be that Triumph were concerned to keep the oil flung by the chain around the clutch from the breather pipe connection?"
Indeed, its not so much a chain oiler , more of a drain to get rid of the splash before it goes up the breather, I see where they were coming from. given all the sturm and drang in there the pipe is probably a bit of an appendix.


71 Devimead A65 750
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Re: Primary Chain Oiler Tube [Re: gavin eisler] #792082 12/05/19 1:18 am
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" the primary sprocket oiler feature ... is from 1963 onward ... part # E4704

... and not added for primary breathers ... just changed a little

pre 1969~70
the trough is cast-in the case ... rather than ... a stamped part added as part of the breather .

you can see cast-in catch-trough ...
[Linked Image from i.ebayimg.com]
and the remains of the plastic redirect pipe ... just above stator wire .
[Linked Image from i.ebayimg.com]
it looks like even the smallest amount of primary chain play
easily removes the middle of the plastic pipe

Re: Primary Chain Oiler Tube [Re: TrophyGuy] #792094 12/05/19 5:43 am
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The trough is cast into the inner primary case on the triples, with the breather plenum behind it.
But, the pipe ends above the middle of the bottom run of the chain. As y'all said, I doubt it's there to aid lubrication, just to allow the oil to drip back into the case.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: Primary Chain Oiler Tube [Re: TrophyGuy] #792099 12/05/19 8:13 am
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Hi guys, Interesting subject.

Triumph sent out a bulletin suggesting you glue the oil tube in at the top with what is basically 3M yellow weather strip adhesive.

The tube is a chain oiler. It doesn't effect clutch one way or the other in my experience.

I always put them back just in case it might make chain last longer. On Mercedes 102 motors we had a mod to add oiler to cam chain which cured wear problems. This squirted oil to inside run of chain.

I know the later T140 factory eliminated the tube. But why did they use it so many years? Puzzling.

I did clutch experiments with original solid steel pressure plate on clutch. Then put on alloy pressure plate with large cutouts so oil could very freely enter clutch pack. No difference in grip or release whatsoever.

I've changed clutch baskets to the repro LF Harris type. They eliminated the holes in the tang grooves around the basket. Again no change one way or the other.

I made a clear plastic window to check timing on bikes with primary breather bike. As you know oil flies out everywhere. However with the plastic cover on the oil is really not that violent. It may just get thrown around the perimeter of case & not much gets on chain. Oil certainly doesn't soak the clear window quickly at all. That very much surprised me.

Indeed oil is thrown off clutch plates as you ride. I did some experiments. Dry assembled & very wet assembled plates. Ride 500 miles. You cannot tell the difference. Both now have identical amount of oil on plates. Which is very little. Somehow the clutch takes in oil though.

Very wet assembled clutch seems to throw oil out quickly. At start up, decided drag. After well under 1 mile the clutch feels normal.

The thing that puzzles me is why there is no difference with the open pressure plates. Even the clutch dust sludge in grooves is the same. I guess the oil just doesn't pass by the outer plate from the left side.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: Primary Chain Oiler Tube [Re: TrophyGuy] #792102 12/05/19 11:38 am
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i cover the fibre plates with lithium grease when i install them. dont wipe any off.

grease-covered plates work very well.


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Re: Primary Chain Oiler Tube [Re: TrophyGuy] #792113 12/05/19 5:53 pm
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TrophyGuy Offline OP
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Very informative information, gentlemen! The silliness of this plastic tube gets even sillier when reviewing the owner's and maintenance manuals. The engine is freely breathing through drilled holes in the crankcase and the left side bearing. Engine blow-by and oil are swirling through the primary and out the breather opening to the breather tube and the oil tank. This almost looks like an oil mist lubrication system as used in industrial applications. The specified fill level in the primary submerges the primary chain run to the bottom of the clutch basket, so it's hard to see how dribbling a little oil on the chain ahead of the drive sprocket helps anything. In 1970 Triumph strill persisted in specifying two different oil grades for engine and primary case, and even goes so far as to specify two different change intervals, 1,000 miles for 20W primary oil and 1,500 miles for engine oil. I guess it's fortunate that the mechanical parts are robust enough to survive this goofy design and maintenance prescription. OTOH, Goldwings regularly run several hundred thousand miles without such weirdness, and Triumphs don't without several rebuilds. They're still fun.

Re: Primary Chain Oiler Tube [Re: TrophyGuy] #792145 12/06/19 12:29 am
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Hi DavidP, Your '72 parts book may not show the oil tube, but your bike had one when it left the factory. Every 72 650 I've taken primary off of had one.

What Mercedes found on the 102 motor was the oil mist was not enough. It needed an inside feed to get oil into pins where the lube is actually needed. Centrifugal force
pulls oil between side plates & onto pin. Out side link lube is mostly thrown off & not easily gotten to pins.

Would need to spend some time at a repair shop to track this long term how it effects chain life. What about oil type?? We found oil type greatly effected cam & chain wear. Poor oil, 50k miles cam was junk. Same cam good oil 150-200k miles. Yes that dramatic. Castro GTX 20-50 was one of the worst. Shocking. Chevron Delo 400 was hands down the very worst. That was 70s & 80s.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: Primary Chain Oiler Tube [Re: TrophyGuy] #792156 12/06/19 2:48 am
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tridentt150v Online Content
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Originally Posted by TrophyGuy
In 1970 Triumph strill persisted in specifying two different oil grades for engine and primary case, and even goes so far as to specify two different change intervals, 1,000 miles for 20W primary oil and 1,500 miles for engine oil.

That's because in very the early '70's the engine seal was removed. There were some with the drive side bearing seal that sealed off the primary from the engine oil - so different oils could be used, and there were some made with the later 3 small holes and no seal - so shared engine and primary oil.
I guess the manual was trying to cover both versions...…...or you are looking at an earlier manual that isn't strictly applicable to your Triumph.....a quick check of the front cover and the models covered would probably show this. However because pretty much everything else was exactly the same for both models, the manual is still relevant.

BTW, I assemble my clutch plates dry, no grease, no oil...……….and they work fine. I once had a slipping clutch and did try both wet and dry assembly as well as scuffed plates and it made no difference...is still slipped. I went to an SRM alloy PP and the Hyde 7 plate kit and had no trouble since.

Last edited by tridentt150v; 12/06/19 2:51 am.
Re: Primary Chain Oiler Tube [Re: TR7RVMan] #792162 12/06/19 6:31 am
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Originally Posted by TR7RVMan
Hi DavidP, Your '72 parts book may not show the oil tube, but your bike had one when it left the factory. Every 72 650 I've taken primary off of had one.

My bad, I was looking at the primary drive pages of the parts book. The pipe is shown with the crankcases.
I don't remember if mine is still there. When I had the clutch out just after I bought the bike that pipe was not on my mind in the slightest.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: Primary Chain Oiler Tube [Re: tridentt150v] #792181 12/06/19 4:00 pm
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TrophyGuy Offline OP
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Originally Posted by tridentt150v
Originally Posted by TrophyGuy
In 1970 Triumph strill persisted in specifying two different oil grades for engine and primary case, and even goes so far as to specify two different change intervals, 1,000 miles for 20W primary oil and 1,500 miles for engine oil.

That's because in very the early '70's the engine seal was removed. There were some with the drive side bearing seal that sealed off the primary from the engine oil - so different oils could be used, and there were some made with the later 3 small holes and no seal - so shared engine and primary oil.
I guess the manual was trying to cover both versions...…...or you are looking at an earlier manual that isn't strictly applicable to your Triumph.....a quick check of the front cover and the models covered would probably show this. However because pretty much everything else was exactly the same for both models, the manual is still relevant.

BTW, I assemble my clutch plates dry, no grease, no oil...……….and they work fine. I once had a slipping clutch and did try both wet and dry assembly as well as scuffed plates and it made no difference...is still slipped. I went to an SRM alloy PP and the Hyde 7 plate kit and had no trouble since.


You are exactly correct! The maintenance manual covers 1963 to 1970. My surprise find was the 1970 specific Owner's manual. It specifies a single oil for engine and primary. Interestingly, it specifies an initial fill of 350 cc of oil for the primary. Whether it makes any difference or not, Triumph at least put the details in the Owner's manual consistent with running run primary oil with engine oil.

Last edited by TrophyGuy; 12/06/19 4:01 pm.
Re: Primary Chain Oiler Tube [Re: TrophyGuy] #792206 12/06/19 8:37 pm
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350 cc is way too much and is a mistake in the book. It gets sucked back into the sump then over fills the oil tank. 1/4 pint is plenty. The primary will quickly adjust the oil to the correct level.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
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