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Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #790559 11/19/19 12:35 pm
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Luckily, on the B44 (and B50) the pump never has to develop much pressure because all bearings are rolling type. Beat (that's his name) on the B50 forum put a pressure gauge on the pressure side and said it went negative at high rpm. Apparently the centrifugal force developed by the crank throw was drawing more oil than the pump could produce!

I met a man at Loring Maine who had put a turbocharger on his B44. Unfortunately, he couldn't get it to run but he was using the scavenge side of a standard B44 oil pump to lubricate the turbocharger and said he could get 75psi. So we're probably over obsessing about oil pressure on our B44s.

But B25s on the other hand need pressure to lubricate the insert bearing on the connecting rod. The B25 cast iron pump on the OIF models has larger gears than the B50, but I don't know if the same was true for the older B25 vs B44s. And I don't know what problems occur if you use a B25 pump in a B44 or B50.

Tom

Last edited by koncretekid; 11/19/19 12:40 pm.

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Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #790564 11/19/19 1:16 pm
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Not sure what you mean by distriuter drive...... the 3 positions on the primary case are:

large cover for strobe timing the igntion, it looks like some damage has occured on the housing of this. there should be 2 positions for the timing pin, one of the B series experts will tell you which one for the B44

off set threaded inspection hole, for checking chain tension

central/back inspection hole is for adjusting the clutch movement before engagement. so you would set up the amount of play from the clutch arm when there is no tension applied on the cable.

in addition the one side mounted (underside of the case) is for the primary chain adjuster. So adjust here and check through the top inspection hole for correct play.


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Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #790598 11/19/19 6:21 pm
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To expand on Koncretekid's response.

The B44 uses a roller bearing big end, the clearances are huge and do not slow the oil flow down except at startup with cold oil, as a rolling element bearing the oil does produce an oil film but operates on 48 rollers not as one pair of shells sliding over a single journal where you want an oil film to stop them touching. There is never a need for an oil pressure gauge as it tells you nothing with a roller bearing, on a shell bearing big end the oil pressure is confirmation that the tight clearances needed at the journal needed to build up an oil film for the bearing to ride on are present.

Oil pumps, the B50/B25 scavenge to feed differences are also on the B44/B25 pumps. The scavenge side is common but the roller bearing pump has thinner feed gears, the resistance of the shell bearing slows the flow keeping the effective 2 to 1 ratio scavenge to feed of the narrower roller bearing feed. So the sump is always being overcleared. Fit a B25 pump to a roller bearing crank and the 2:1 ratio drops so potentially the sump will not clear as quickly at start up and if scavenge wears quicker than the feedside losing its capacity to flow then constant wet sumping will start and a smoky exhaust.

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: kommando] #790640 11/19/19 11:15 pm
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Frank the Welder Offline OP
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Originally Posted by kommando
Gear, its a left hand thread, replace the plunger into the hole and then draw it to the back of the hole using the cable lever, once it bottoms out it should then unscrew with sufficient applied torque to the lever, protect the cover.


Thanks! There are so many interesting engineering solutions on these bikes.

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Allan Gill] #790646 11/20/19 12:16 am
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Frank the Welder Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Allan Gill
Not sure what you mean by distriuter drive


It's the two bolt cover on the right side center case at about two o'clock. It looks to run an appliance off the crank pinion.

Originally Posted by Allan Gill

large cover for strobe timing the igntion, it looks like some damage has occured on the housing of this. there should be 2 positions for the timing pin, one of the B series experts will tell you which one for the B44


Is this access still used with electronic ignition?

Originally Posted by Allan Gill


off set threaded inspection hole, for checking chain tension.

central/back inspection hole is for adjusting the clutch movement before engagement. so you would set up the amount of play from the clutch arm when there is no tension applied on the cable.

in addition the one side mounted (underside of the case) is for the primary chain adjuster. So adjust here and check through the top inspection hole for correct play.


Great, thanks for the information. I am learning a lot and appreciate your patience.

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #790730 11/20/19 11:44 pm
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Dunno if this has been mentioned before, but , if you have a BSA unit single the books by Rupert Ratio are essential reading, better than a workshop manual. Theres an engine one, and one for all the rest.
http://www.ratiopublishing.co.uk/


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Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: gavin eisler] #790834 11/21/19 10:58 pm
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Frank the Welder Offline OP
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I have a copy of the Rupert Ratio book and should have bought two of them. I work on the bike before and after work (at the shop) and can't keep track of where I leave it. I did find it long enough to learn that it's the tach drive, not a distro.

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: kommando] #790845 11/21/19 11:37 pm
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Frank the Welder Offline OP
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Originally Posted by kommando
To expand on Koncretekid's response.

The B44 uses a roller bearing big end, the clearances are huge and do not slow the oil flow down except at startup with cold oil, as a rolling element bearing the oil does produce an oil film but operates on 48 rollers not as one pair of shells sliding over a single journal where you want an oil film to stop them touching. There is never a need for an oil pressure gauge as it tells you nothing with a roller bearing, on a shell bearing big end the oil pressure is confirmation that the tight clearances needed at the journal needed to build up an oil film for the bearing to ride on are present.

Oil pumps, the B50/B25 scavenge to feed differences are also on the B44/B25 pumps. The scavenge side is common but the roller bearing pump has thinner feed gears, the resistance of the shell bearing slows the flow keeping the effective 2 to 1 ratio scavenge to feed of the narrower roller bearing feed. So the sump is always being overcleared. Fit a B25 pump to a roller bearing crank and the 2:1 ratio drops so potentially the sump will not clear as quickly at start up and if scavenge wears quicker than the feedside losing its capacity to flow then constant wet sumping will start and a smoky exhaust.




Thanks! I am glad I reread this. My stock pump has very little wear and seems to be fine after touching things up so that is good news. I thought about adding o-rings between the scavenge and pressure side below the thrust washers but I won't likely store the bike "wet" between rides.

I got my cases back from wet-blasting and they look good. The corrosion is pretty bad in a couple places but tolerable.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr


You may have noticed the extra hole in the cam plate fulcrum.

The contents of the cases were mostly full of water so the cotter pin was 75% gone and the pin was stuck. I drilled the extra hole to drive the pin out.







Last edited by Frank the Welder; 11/21/19 11:44 pm.
Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #791313 11/26/19 12:48 am
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I went through the right side crank case removing flashing, chamfering rough holes and cleaning passages when I came across a hole in the scavenge pick-up tube. I wanted to make sure it didn't belong there before I delete it.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

The motor mounts need a lot of material. The rear mount is missing .155" in width. Ill do all the welding at once after a good preheat.

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #791351 11/26/19 10:28 am
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That hole has to go or the oil level in the sump will be set by that hole and not by the oil pickup, it will be too high and result in a smoky exhaust due to oil being thrashed around by the flywheel and getting up past the rings.

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #791363 11/26/19 1:22 pm
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You should pull the spigot out from the bottom of the sump to inspect. Best way to do that is to tap it 6mm-1.0 and draw it out using a 6mm bolt with lots of thread or a 6mm threaded rod that can be screwed into the now threaded spigot. Use a suitable sized socket over the spigot and tighten a nut down to extract the spigot. It has a small ball held in with a steel pin which is probably corroded. Then you can weld up that hole, or plug it and make sure the scavenge hole is clear up to the pump.

Tom

Last edited by koncretekid; 11/26/19 1:24 pm.

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Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: koncretekid] #791430 11/27/19 12:13 am
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Frank the Welder Offline OP
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Originally Posted by kommando
That hole has to go or the oil level in the sump will be set by that hole and not by the oil pickup, it will be too high and result in a smoky exhaust due to oil being thrashed around by the flywheel and getting up past the rings.


I noticed the cast-in crank skimmers. My motorcycle background is 2 stroke but I have seen inside car engines. Thanks for the info.


Originally Posted by koncretekid
You should pull the spigot out from the bottom of the sump to inspect. Best way to do that is to tap it 6mm-1.0 and draw it out using a 6mm bolt with lots of thread or a 6mm threaded rod that can be screwed into the now threaded spigot. Use a suitable sized socket over the spigot and tighten a nut down to extract the spigot. It has a small ball held in with a steel pin which is probably corroded. Then you can weld up that hole, or plug it and make sure the scavenge hole is clear up to the pump.

Tom


I tapped and pulled the sump scavenge valve assembly as you described, it came right out and the contents were a mess. Thanks for the assist.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr



I went ahead and drilled out the rot hole and covered it up. The wall is super thin in that spot. Ill bet many are seeping through there to some degree.

I read up on the width of the engine mounting bosses and what a great resource that was. all mine were worn to some degree. Here are some images of the process.

Good example of damage.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr



I ground off the surface to find clean metal then welded up one side of the case at a time so I don't lose the bolt hole.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

More after dinner.

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #791492 11/27/19 11:05 pm
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Next thing on my list is to restore the original surfaces to the point just prior to the final machining operation before assembly. I start with the flat surfaces and use them as reference points for whatever sculpting is involved.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

The visual contrast between the factory rough cast and the new metal was pretty obvious so I started experimenting with methods for getting the surface to look good and dabbled with it at each point that I had completed a surface. I used a pneumatic needle gun used for stress relieving welds, removing slag etc. though is was still a bit much.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr


I went back over all the motor mount bosses and restored the width as the final step.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

Last edited by Frank the Welder; 11/29/19 11:30 pm. Reason: Orignal sentence made no sense.
Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #791496 11/27/19 11:16 pm
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Excellent work Frank. Thanks for the education cool


Jon W.


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Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #791762 12/01/19 1:40 pm
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Thanks for the kind words though I am just repeating what you guys have been doing for years.

My pressure relief valve was shot and completely stuck in the casting so I welded a piece of tube to the nut to extract it. There wasn't much room for a socket over the nut so chopped the tube off the valve body and turned a piece of 3/4" bar to fit inside and pressed it in and used the assembly to set a little horizontal mill to spot face the landing spot.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr



Valve body converted from original purpose to become an alignment bar.



[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com] by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr


[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

I was finally able to coax the bearings off the end of the crank spindles so the next stem is to remove the nut retainer.

I am fairly sure the little screw isn't going to want to come out but as I understand it doesn't need to. It's part of the pin which is discarded with the bearings (at least in this case) ?

Thanks, Frank

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

<EDIT> I had that all wrong.



Last edited by Frank the Welder; 12/01/19 3:15 pm.
Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #791780 12/01/19 6:47 pm
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I don't know much about the little screw on the crank but its worth noting that the OPRV on B44's is virtually useless because the crank has a roller big end and the oil system has very little pressure.

What some folks do is to block off the OPRV return hole, remove the spring and ball and then fit an adapter so that any excess oil is routed up to the rockers.


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Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: gunner] #791798 12/01/19 9:07 pm
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Frank the Welder Offline OP
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The little screw is the end of the oil galley and connected to the sludge trap which was packed with filth.

I have read up a bit on the various oil system mods and will likely do exactly what you mentioned. I think there is flow restriction orifice in the line to the rockers in one version.

I got the crank apart at there are some huge rot holes in the flywheels but the journals seem fine.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

I am guessing it's cast steel which should weld fine. Ill try a small spot and see how it behaves.

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #791808 12/01/19 10:26 pm
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The B44 flywheels are steel, either forged or cast.

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: kommando] #791842 12/02/19 10:34 am
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Frank the Welder Offline OP
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Originally Posted by kommando
The B44 flywheels are steel, either forged or cast.


excellent thanks!

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #791849 12/02/19 1:54 pm
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Not going to get around to the pump mod on the Unit single but here is a Norton pump I did earlier

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Its an X seal or quad ring seal not an O ring so the sealing surfaces are doubled, it should be a garter seal but space limitations mean compromises must be made.

Quad Ring for Unit single pump, including earlier C15/B40 pump

011 0.070"Cross Section X 0.301"ID


And here is my mod for the unused pressure release valve, this mod uses the housing to feed cool oil from the oil tank to the rockerbox instead of hot oil from the return, reduces the clatter of the rockers.

http://www.b50.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=2948&sid=5446f9ded1790857ea29997df66cb773


Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #791898 12/03/19 12:52 am
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Frank the Welder Offline OP
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Thanks Kommando, nice job on the write-up. I finally took a little time to understand the oiling system and the logic behind the mods. I just need to block off the rocker feed on the crank case oil pipe union. Cheers. I have 98 of those seals available if you need some. I spent $15.00 on 100. No option for less. Amazon

Last edited by Frank the Welder; 12/03/19 12:57 am.
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